quote:

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overcoming such tests will be rewarded in the life to come.

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I'm going to assume that you are Mormon (Adi), because a third of the poeple here are ( ). <grin> Actually I'm assuming you are since what you said sounds ... Mormon <grin>. Anyways I don't agree with the above quote. I don't think that it's so much that we are rewarded at a future date but that we are rewarded with our intelectual/emotion/spirtual growth. Just a thought.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"without some sort of creator, universal plan, destination, or goal, life would not exist, nor have a porpose."

We probably wouldn't have koalas, either, but the jury's still out on that one.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I see I'm not the only one who's punchy today . . .
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I have trouble believing in God. The concept of a personal God makes no sense to me in light of how the world is.
But if there is no God then there does not mean there is no purpose to life. What if God was the connections people make to each other? Or the feeling behind music? Or what makes language makes sense?
Who knows what I believe? I just can't reconsile... cannot cope... Cannot believe that God can be omnipotent and just let things be like this....
So I don't believe in God in some religious sense...
it's difficult to explain.
 

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Posted by Salaam (Member # 5239) on :
 
Lee, I personally wouldn't bring that much religion into a forum like this because everyone has different opinions and there is no real answer. its one of those threads where nothing gets accomplished except for heated disputes over it
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
and people learn
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Well that's true Salaam, when the topic of the thread is Questions about GOD then you pretty much have to bring in your personal beliefs (i.e. religion). At Hatrack we tend to be much more tolerant than the rest of the world.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
 
...I feel quite hypocritical, since I'm usually intolerant of people who are intolerant.
 

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Posted by Brock (Member # 5205) on :
 
I agree with the jedi who posted above, (adi Galiia) There is a god because there's no other way for ppl to be. If you consider evolution, go look up the human genome project, they've disproved evolution on a racial basis. We'll never grow another thumb or gills or any other such science-fiction, as fun as that could be.

Same thing goes for the big bang, it's absurd, are we just waiting for a gib gnab? so the universe will start over.

I'm not going to proselyte, i just wanted the facts stated. If you're wondering about god, ask him but do it with a heart willing to listen for the answer or you're going to hear nothing.

And i know someone's thinking it so i'll just point out that god lets bad things happen because we probably caused them and what would we learn if he fixed everything for us? (Bruce almighty's a good movie, go see it)

Brock
~around the survivors, a perimeter create.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Sorry, Brock, but I'm afraid your "facts" aren't exactly accurate. The Human Genome Project has not, in fact, disproven evolution. *laugh*
 

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Posted by Gnome (Member # 5195) on :
 
Belief in something is actually a basic human need. There is a specific order; like food, clothing, shelter, belief, and a social construct of some sort. Religion happens to fill the need of belief very well for many people. Others believe in different Gods, or the belief that there is no God, or even just simply Science. The point is not so much what you believe in, but that you have faith in something. People blasted the movie Dogma for its supposed anti-Catholic views, which are harbored by many who are raised Catholic as the writer / director Kevin Smith was. However, he hit this idea of faith above belief on the head, and expressed it openly in the movie.

Religion happens to be the largest business in the World. It runs like a business, which is one of the problems I have with it. I do not know if God exists. When I was younger, I was quite avid in my belief of God. But, I lost faith regardless of my belief in God, and have found other beliefs with a more promising faith for myself. The point is, that one needs to find their own faith in something, whether it is God or not.

Galiia did have things right, however I am not so sure about you Brock. Do not take offense to my comments on your post please, but I believe you have some things out of place. As far as the Human Genome process, we all did come from what is known as the Mitochondrial Eve, the first evolution from a certain form of Being into Human Beings. All races diverged from this one being as they spread through the World, adapting to their habitats as they settled. The thought that all races come from different species of being, was one of the reasons rascism evolved.

In fact, the differences in technology have more to do with the ability of some areas to cultivate various foods, moving from gathering and hunting to settling down and farming. This allowed more time for thinking and innovation, thus allowing the more technologically advanced societies to take over what they deemed as "Savages."

As for thumbs, people are born with two sets of thumbs far more often than you would think. The second set of thumbs is removed and generally forms toward the inside of the wrist, on the same plane as the other fingers, in between the wrist and more common thumb. I even know someone who has two very subtle stumps from this procedure. I am not sure whether the thumbs are function, but I do not think they are since any bone in them is probably not connected to the skeletal structure.

As for the Big Bang, it has been theorized to some fragment of a second, and Science can not determine what happened prior. I believe the Catholic Church has adopted the view of the Big Bang, as Science has, by putting God as the creator of the Big Bang and thus everything to follow.

Asking God whether he is real may be an ideal solution to finding faith. If there is a need for faith in God in you, he will answer you. Whether it is a God, the God, or just the need for faith answering, it is a good thing. However, do not disregard things like evolution and the Big Bang simply because you found faith in something that is different or even says that the faith of such things is wrong. Learn all you can, about everything you can, regardless of your faith.

[ June 09, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Gnome ]
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Hobbes, you're right. To present life and the spirit as simply as I did was wrong. I agree that spiritual, and even intellectual growth is a Huge reward in this life, and no doubt there is much more in regards to rewards than I can think of at the moment.
By the way, I'm not Mormon, and my knowledge of the Mormon religion is limited to interaction with this site, and a former Mormon boyfriend.

Another thing, I believe Science and Religion are in harmony. As for evellution, well, if, and only if it does aply to humans, we must remember that the chances of a bipedal, intelligent, lifeforms with a bility's to learn, create, and recognize a higher being could have spontaneously been born is low... Unless some sort of greater planner was involved. Same can be said for the universe. Big bang theory or not, there had to be some sort of Catalist in order for the universe to exist. Matter does not spring from empty space. Perhaps, in the future, there wil be more answers, and less of this dangerous fighting amoungst religious and scientific groups.
Science and Religion are in harmony, we just don't understand either well enough to see truth.

As for the question, why doesn't God just fix everything for us? two things come to mind,
1 what would we strive for if life was already perfect, what would be the purpose of life after death if no one died?
2. For the most part, we have made our own messes, and there is much to gain by cleaning up after ourselves.
Just thoughts...

Oh, and out of curiosity a P.S., Where do Koialas come from?

[ June 09, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Adi Gallia ]
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Gnome, I didn't see youre post before I responded, you made some excellent points. I'd like to hear more details on this "Mitochondrial Eve"
I liked also what was said about the big bang
" As for the Big Bang, it has been theorized to some fragment of a second, and Science can not determine what happened prior "
I don't know about the chatholic church, but I certainly see God as the creator of the big bangs.
as for asking God, hasn;t he given us enough proof already? That so many billions of people have worshipped a higher being, even if their beliefs can be counted as basic needs, isn't it possible that they are on to something?
Can you trully explain the presence of life, plant, animal, the paterns of existance? The golden Mean? The Color Purple? Without including God, or by God's other names, Allah, Lord, the higher being, greater porpuse?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"That so many billions of people have worshipped a higher being, even if their beliefs can be counted as basic needs, isn't it possible that they are on to something?"

Not really. Many billions of people have worshipped DIFFERENT, often mutually exclusive, higher beings. This means that the majority of those billions have been wrong.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
To answer the 'why is there pain and death and violence etc' question I'll use two words...Free Will.

Without it we are only puppets.

As to losing faith for those that have... No matter what... God still has faith in you. Everyone must find their path however and use their free will.
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Many Billions have made one, often fatal error. They have compared thier diffrences, and come to believe that since a religion works diffrently than thier own they must be worshiping a diffrent God. This denies a fundamental principle that has been part of religion as a whole since the ancient time of the Zoriastrians.

There is only one God. God has spoken to mankind again and again through contless diffrent Phophets. Jesus, Moses, Muhamad.... Each time, a new message was delivered, an inportant teaching that helped humanity proceed spiritually.
And each time, men leapt at the oportunity to twist, bend, and add superstitions onto those teachings. Each time men found ways to create power for themselves, falsely using the name of God.

Some religions appear exclusive, but that is only because man has added so many false supperstitions and beliefs onto the word of God.

Think of it as a lamp. Out of this lamp pours an amazing amount of light, light wich can reveal the truth about a room to it's ocupants. However, the people in the room feel a need to decorate the lamp. They adorn it with material, lampshades, jewles, soon disagreement arises between the peoples on how to decorate the lamp. They forget how important the light was, and add on what they think is important untill the light itself is obscured.

..... And by the way, Thank you Sachant, I'll have to remember youre puppet example next time I have a face to face conversation on this topic.

-Adi
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Adi, I was once a Baha'i; the philosophy sounds very familiar to me.
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Tom Davidson,
You were once a Bahai? Well, what Happened? Please, I'd really like to know. If you prefer not to share the story here, please email me.
 

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Posted by Gnome (Member # 5195) on :
 
The "Mitochondrial Eve" is the woman from which all Homo Sapiens spawned from. A Mitochondrion is a part within the cells in our body, but once existed as a separate organism. They are believed to be descendants of bacteria that lived in single-celled organisms over a billion years ago. When mapping the history of humans through the genome, it was DNA from the Mitochondria that was used. This is different from the DNA taken from the chromosomes of cells. There are many Mitochondria in a cell, and these hundreds in each cell act as batteries for the cell. The Mitochondria in all of our bodies comes from our mothers. Because of this, all of the Mitochondrial DNA in everyone's body on Earth comes from one woman, termed the "Mitochondrial Eve." However, she was not the only living woman at the time, so to speak. There were other species of what we would see more as Humans than Apes. However, none of these evolved into what we are today. They all died out, either through lack of evolution and mutation, or killed off by what we are today.

It is believed we originated in eastern Africa. Through the Mitochondrial DNA, scientists have traced the spread of humans through the World. I am not sure exactly how it is done, but everyone has at least slightly different Mitochondrial DNA. I believe people were organized into what is termed as "haplotypes." From Africa we spread into the fertile crescent, then along the water into southeast asia and so on. Realize that this is not a few thousand years ago, this is a long time ago. As we spread, some people settled down and others moved on. Over this long period of time, people developed different traits to fit them to their enviornments. I forget the name of the extra flap of skin that is generally attributed to Asians above their eyes, but it is believed that it evolved out of a need to protect the eyes from the reflecting sunlight off the snow all around them on the ground at the time.

Anyway, I am just going on and on, not sure when I should stop. If you are interested, all this information is from a book I read entitled "Mapping Human History," by the author Steve Olson. Another interesting book on human history is "Gun, Germs, and Steel," by Jared Diamond, which won the Pulitzer Prize. The latter of the books focuses more on the differences between various peoples and civilizations and like the title implies, how Guns, Germs, and Steel enabled civilizations to conquer others. It all stems from a divergance from hunting and gathering, to farming!
 

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Posted by JLcke (Member # 5171) on :
 
Lee M.-

Read the Worthing Saga. It's a beautiful creation story and poses a very realistic philosophy about the origin and importance of God. But maybe I read into it too much.

--Locke
 

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Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 
What 14 year old uses the word "amongst"?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Basically, I went on pilgrimage to Haifa at a time when my faith was already at a low ebb, due to some personal misfortune. While there, I had the pleasure of experiencing the Wailing Wall massacre in Jerusalem, the first Gulf War, and so on -- and, to be perfectly honest, was not impressed by the somewhat millennialist, doomsday nature of what the Hands of the Cause I visited there had to say. I asked God for a sign, didn't get one, and have been looking ever since.

I'm also not a big fan of the increasingly dictatorial nature of the Spiritual Assembly nowadays, either; it's unlikely that I'd return to the fold while the Faith is being managed so poorly.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
The way I see it there a re a few general options.

1. There is no God.
2. There is a God but He is Diest (does not interact with humans)
3. There are multiple Gods
4. There is a God who interacts only through large-scale miracles
5. There is a God who touches each person individually

That's just the way I see it.

Hobbes

[ June 09, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Thanks Gnome, I'll be sure to look those books up when I get back to school I am already slightly familiar with mitochondrian, thanks to childhood readings of Madeline Le'engle.( I'll also try to find the worthing saga.) Currently, I'm about to start The Universe in A Nutshell by Stephan Hawking. Have you read anything by him?

And Tom, two things, what are you now? and who was it who said, "Sometimes we must remain Bahais despite the Bahais" ( I may be misquoting) Though Social interactions are important to our emotional well being, I think such interaction is outweighed by the importance of Spiritual growth.
I've heard many stories like yours, and understand it must be a overly common occurence, but I am still curious......

-Hobbes, I hope you pick answer E. Although answer D. may be part of the solution.
 

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Posted by Gnome (Member # 5195) on :
 
Yes, I have. Hawking is a wonderful read for any mind curious about the universe. I have read both "A Brief History of Time" and "The Universe in a Nutshell." I would recommmend both books to anyone, even though there is a small occurance of overlap between the two books.

I am also in the middle of the book "The Elegant Universe," by Brian Greene. His novel breaks down String Theory and M-Theory, in a manner similar to Hawking and the universe in his novels. If you enjoy the Nutshell, I would recommend reading this as well. It probes deeper into the universe and our understanding of it.

[ June 10, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: Gnome ]
 

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Posted by Brock (Member # 5205) on :
 
You know i hate to say this but Tom's right my facts aren't completely adequate. Tom do you suppose you could point me to articles on evolution as published by the human genome project?

I was just on their site seeking documentation. I'd heard that they'd disproved Evolution on TV on a news channel in passing. I assumed they were right because i as an amateur geneticist didn't think it was possible.

doesn't change my belief that it isn't possible.

~Brock
~What am I? A Frog?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"what are you now?"

I'm an agnostic. I didn't just stop believing in the Baha'i Faith; I pretty much stopped believing in God. The way I see it nowadays, the ball's in His court. I tried with every ounce of my being to hear His voice, and didn't -- so I figure that it's now HIS turn to put out some effort, if He really cares (or exists.)

----

Brock, to which news station were you listening when you heard that evolution had been "disproved" by the Human Genome Project? *laugh* I can't find ANY claims of that sort -- not least because the Human Genome Project isn't ABOUT evolution, and doesn't publish articles on the subject.

[ June 10, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Jettboy (Member # 534) on :
 

quote:

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God is not confined to anything that can trully be descibed by mankind.

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I just want to mention one thing to Hobbes. Adi G. doesn't sound like a Mormon because they would never describe God in such generalized, universal terms. At least, not without including a word such as "influence," that would seperate God's location and description from God's power. To a Mormon, God has a definate description and even a probable location. {I only mention this information because Hobbes has been interested in the LDS religion for a while.}

As to the actual question: I would suggest asking God first, and then studying individual religious systems that interest you. Then, asking God again.

[ June 10, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Jettboy ]
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Hobbes: What about there is a god and SHE is deistic? or It is deistic?

Also, there is the Hindu Brahma, in which God is everything, yet god is not intelligent, and god is beyond intelligent, and god is unknown, and unknowable. Brahma gives rise to everything, and everything is illusion (maya). Not a concept that can be easily grasped in one post. According to hinduism, Jesus is an avatar of Brahma, which fits quite nicely with Christianity.

Tom: I've been through this in another thread (Atheism) on the other side. A-theism, means "without belief in God." I personally describe myself as an atheist, but in discussion I usually also point out that I am agnostic, in that I recognize that knowledge of god (either way) is impossible, unless proof is provided. It sounds to me like you are in the same position, yet you describe yourself as agnostic, and yet you still beleive in the Baha'i Faith. This is the first time I have noticed your having been Baha'i and I don't understand what "beleiving in the Baha'i Faith" means if you don't beleive in God.

Brock: (also in another thread, I think the one about the pledge of allegiance) The Human Genome project is completely in accordance with evolutionary theory. In fact, the genome can be used to show where evolutionary changes took place, such as the (I think) 23 "evolutionary Eves" that all mankind descended from, as well as the carrier of the (male) mutation from which all native americans descended. (the native american Adam?) Likewise, we are shown to be related to mice, etc.
All of biological science is based on evolutionary theory. It works.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Let me repeat that sentence, this time with emphasis added: "I didn't just stop believing in the Baha'i Faith...."
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Woah, for some reason I skipped over that sentance. *looks sheepish and ducks head*

Glenn, I don't think it makes much of a difference what Gender God is, but if it matters to you you can put another binary bit in their to describe the possibility.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
For those that keep looking for signs of God. I see them everyday. My daughter is one. I lost twins before her, but I didn't blame God. Their loss led me to the gain of my beautiful girl.

We're poor as hell, yet we always manage to just pay the bills and keep food on the table.

My father was told he had at most four years to live. He is now on year five and gauranteed to live the year.

I don't know how many times I was at the lowest of lows and something happened to lift me out of it.

My daughter could have been born with pneumonia had I not had the help of a woman that switched me to a good hospital and a good doctor and staff that knew what needed to be done so she DIDN't have pneumonia and die. She had meconium (the first poop) in her bag of water and they had to have a respiratory team on hand. If I had stayed at the prior hospital, I would have only had a nurse midwife and they were the same people that told me I had twins AFTER they had already passed away. They also were the ones that didn't tell me what was wrong until two sonograms and 2 hours later. The new doctor and hospital actually cared and took every precaution to ensure her safety and my own.

My Great-Grandmother was a woman of great faith and she lived until 101. She just passed away a few months ago.

I've had a lot of losses in the family over the past few years and yet, it brings comfort that they are not lost but home.

I recently just found a church too after searching for years and not finding one for me. This one does not ask for money and instead talks about the free will of the individual and a personal relationship between the God, Jesus and themself.

There is a show about Miracles on PAX tv. It talks about things that would make your skin prickle because the coincidences are too much to be just coincidence.

God doesn't have to do big things to make you see a miracle. Birth of babies are a complete miracle. A flower blooming in the middle of winter is a miracle and on and on. Simple things are miracles too.

Just so there isn't a fight between myself and evolutionists, I am a creationist evolutionist. God set the wheels in motion for evolution in my opinion. Seven days to God can be any period of time and man is not able to comprehend the span of time it could have truely taken. That's just my opinion and may be completely wrong but I'm satisfied to talk to God about it when I see Him/Her.
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
The color purple is a miracle. If you don't know what I mean, you might want to read the book, although I'll admit it's a bit rough with a person's emotions.

But seriously,what sort of comunication are agnostics expecting???? Theres so much already That we exist, is amazing, miraculas, phenominal in itself...
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
I've only seen the Color Purple but it's the one movie that just floors me and brings me to tears.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Heck, why not ANY communication? That'd be good.

I look around at the world and, while amazed by its beauty, see nothing that indicates a sense of coherent design. There's no obvious master plan, and no moral rules being applied consistently.

Now, God may BE inconsistent. But if so, He's going to need to tell me why.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Free will. God has a plan for everyone even if some of the answers are 'no'.

I may be experiencing a miracle tonight if all goes well. It's interesting how it's come about and it will mean a little more money for food and bills.

Also, it's important to listen and not demand answers or expect God to act like some magician on a stage. He does not have to prove anything to anyone and yet He has performed so many miracles for so many people. It's not up to Him/Her to open your ears and make you hear. It's not up to Him/Her to open your eyes and make you see. You first need to open your heart and have true faith.

Believe me, I'm not one to prosylitize (sp?). I've always held to the point in the scripture where it says to talk to those you know. The idea is they are the only ones that are going to be more willing to listen to what you have to say without you jamming something they don't want to hear down their throat.

I'm just saying that those that demand proof need to start realizing proof is there, but it's not God's fault if we are blind to it. I could pull out the bible and quote things to you, but I have a feeling that many that question God aren't going to find their answers here.

[ June 10, 2003, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
I think its interesting that we, as a collectively faithless people, expect it from G-d to show us the "light." We have tried many times to 'talk' G-d and yet we say it hasn't worked. Yet we have no proof whether or not there is or is not a Supreme Being. Why is it G-d's job to guide us from all evils? Isn't that the basis of free will? If we are so certain that we all have the free chioce to choose our own future, then how can we possibly believe that G-d must prevent all evils from harming us. I think we have all lost some part of religion in general because death seems so far away and because it isn't general accepted as 'popular'. Now I am sure there are some devoutly religious people out there that would disagree, but we as a people are losing our faith. We only need or feel a need for G-d when something has gone wrong, or it is forseeable that something might go wrong. Or perhaps when we want something to happen. World Peace. Whatever. I believe that there is a reason why we are here. I believe that we can decide what that reason is. Some say that to believe in free will means to disbelieve in G-d. I say the true G-d is giver of free will, the giver of choice. But I think religion is just a tradition and that is the only reason we say we follow one.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"He does not have to prove anything to anyone and yet He has performed so many miracles for so many people."

If it's impossible to tell a miracle from a lucky break or the result of hard work, if God is so inconsistent and unpredictable as to be IMPOSSIBLE to predict or even identify, then what's the point?

We've had this discussion in much greater depth on the other side of this forum, but I'll sum it up: basically, given the state of the world, God cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, AND benevolent -- much less permit Free Will, assuming He does in fact grant miracles. (Note that Free Will is often used to justify the continued existence of Evil, but we see several instances of God intervening against the exercise of Free Will -- miraculously -- to defeat Evil. Why were the walls of Jericho more "evil" than the 9/11 attacks?)

The traditional answer when trying to deal with these contradictions is to demand of someone that he or she somehow ASK God. Read the Book of Mormon, you're told. Meditate. Read the Bible. Go to a church. Try to FEEL the truth.

And while some people do, indeed, convince themselves that they've FELT this truth -- although, since so many of them "feel" things that drive them to join mutually incompatible religions, at least some of these people are deluding themselves -- many others don't. I'm not so egotistical as to assume that I can speak for those people who, despite their efforts, do NOT hear the voice of God, or see His hand.

[ June 10, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
Do you hear the voice of god?
 

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Posted by JayaR (Member # 5197) on :
 
First, it seems strange that some of you think you are wiser than God. The walls of Jericho fell for a specific reason, not just because of the evil deeds of the people inside the walls. Maybe the Towers fell for a specific reason also. Afterwards, millions of Americans united in prayer. Prayers were raised as they had not been in years. Maybe this is what God wanted. Or maybe it was a reminder that the rest of the world is not as lacking in turmoil as the United States was. We can only speculate as to what some parts of God’s plan are but rest assured that he has one.
God is not kind and merciful, but many people often forget that he is also just… and justice rarely seems just to the convict. Plus, death is not quite the same from God’s point of view. People who doubt Him say that death, murder, and war in the world prove that there is no God. These people forget, or choose to ignore the occasions (including Christ’s resurrection) in which God conquered death. To God, death is nothing. If someone dies, God can grant that someone eternal life.

Quick Note: The mathematical probability of atoms ever arranging themselves into something as simple as hemoglobin (a chemical necessary for us to live) without some sort of divine motivation is approximately 1 in 1x10^74,000. I’ll look up the physicist who calculated that and get back to ya’ll as soon as I can.
 

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Posted by Brock (Member # 5205) on :
 
Tom

*Laugh* It doesn't matter what the human genome project's goals are, discoveries about science are rarely what we expect, just because you're looking for subject A doesn't mean you'll always find it, often you find subject L which could strike you as entirely out of left field, till you understand and then it makes sense, i believe it was because the genes which controlled human skeletal structures weren't variable, there was only one structure, gene B could determine length of bone, and gene c could mean your bones are brittle and will brake often, but there was no variable on how many fingers you will have. Which is why mutations aren't dominant traits and xplains why no race of humans has an xtra nostril.

~Brock
~it's probably not "Aardvark" either.

[ June 11, 2003, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: Brock ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
If it is true that, to God, death is nothing, why do so many people claim that God miraculously cured their cancer? You ask me to "rest assured" that God DOES have a plan -- but where's the evidence of that? What proof do YOU have? (And if this is going to come back to some personal experience you've had with the voice of God, please see my earlier posts on this thread.)

If God's plan is so unknowable as to be absolutely inscrutable and unjustifiable, how can we say there's a plan at all?

After all, if you can't COUNT on God -- to knock down a wall, or save a plane, or destroy a plane, or cure a cancer, or kill a cancer patient -- how can you possibly rely on Him? And if you can't rely on Him, what's the point?

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Brock, I'm still not understanding why that would "disprove" evolution...?

[ June 11, 2003, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Tom,

Everyone's proof only means something to them. It would never mean anything to you because God is very personal.

What God or Jesus has done for me, wouldn't mean diddly squat to you. I listed some of the things and you still think they are diddly squat. That's ok though, because those miracles weren't for you and weren't meant to convince you. I'm sure God speaks to you too, but you just aren't listening because you want proof. Proof will never come in the way you expect.

I had another one occur yesterday after something that I tried as a suggestion from the last sermon by the minister. Let's just say, I sold something because I needed the money and the person I sold it to offered to pay more than what the final bid for his own conscious, his own well being and his own desire to help if he could. I had given up when the bid had an hour and 16 minutes to go after a week of sitting with no bids. You can call it coincidence if you want. I'm sure you will.

As for Adeimantus' question, have I heard the voice of God? If I told you yes, would you call me a liar? Would you tell me I must have been deluded? Of course you would. Because I don't believe you think it's a possible scenario. *shrug* My faith is strong though it has it's weak times. It has it's times it's shaken to it's very core. The thing is, without it, what is left? The belief that life has no meaning? lol...

I've heard that it's harder to be an atheist than anything. It's the total belief that your entire life and those of everyone around you is a complete and total accident with no purpose. That's utterly hollow and sad and dark and empty don't you think?

Agnostic I can understand. They don't know what to believe and are waiting. But, I have to tell you, you can't wait forever. You never know when you'll run into 'too late'.

My only wish is that atheist, agnostic, relgious, everyone finds what makes them happy as long as it does not harm or infringe on others happiness. Like I've said before, I resent when people try to shake MY foundation of faith because they want to prove something or test me. I'm tested all my life, no need to get in there and push yourself I assure you.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"But, I have to tell you, you can't wait forever."

Out of interest, what did YOU wait for? What made you decide to believe?
 

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Posted by mickey_mouse (Member # 4533) on :
 
Lee,

Its not about opinions, Its about facts.

Is there a God? In order to answer that question a person needs a basis from which to start. The first and most simple basis is, what do you feel? Does it feel to you that there is a higher being.... a creator?

The next area to search is your friends and family. What do they think? These are the people that you trust more than anyone else in the world, their opinion must be important to you.

The next area to search is where others have searched before you. Man as we know him has existed for around seven thousand years. We are no more intelligent than those that came before us. Sure we are more advanced, but that is just because we have built upon the work of our predecessors. People have asked the same questions that you are asking for seven millennia now, some of them have had some brilliant break-throughs. Look to their studies. Look at what answers they have come to and what brought them there. People like Locke, Plato, Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, Bennings, Augustus...... and many many more.

The next area to study is religion itself. I will make no deceptive statements, I am a devout Christian and consider myself a disciple of Christ our savior, this doesn't mean that if you don't agree with me I must automatically be a fool. It took me forever to come to this conclusion and the Bible helped more than I can put into words. But don't just fall on Christianity as the answer. If you are anything like me you will need to explore the other possibilities before coming to a conclusion. Research Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, the Jewish beliefs, and the atheistic views before coming to a faith. They are all ancient works and there is so much information to study, but it is worth it.

Next, if you are like me, you will need to back up your findings with secular historical evidence. For me Christ is the path to God, and his teachings and sacrifices are the only way for me to achieve salvation. But in order to make this decision a huge historical study needed to take place. Did Christ really exist? Did he do the things that the Bible says he did? Why is he the messiah that the old testament prophases? What gives the old testament any validity? These questions and many more needed to be answered.

The biggest thing, and the thing that I eluded to first is what feels right to you? Faith is the basis for any religion. First you must answer that, and no one can answer it for you.

Finally to answer some of your questions, as the bible tells us. We die because we are not perfect. God's original creation - Adam and Eve - were perfect, but they fell because of the original sin. Sin by definition is something that is separate from God, therefore if sin becomes part of our life we become separate from God. God is perfection, but we are only perfect if sin is not part of us. We die because sin is part of all of us. people used to live longer because they were closer to god's original creations, but since that time man has become further tainted and we will die sooner. At least this is the Biblical answer.

Many of our other questions can be answered by small derivations of the above answer.

As for how many Gods there are – only you can figure that out through studying. I can tell you but others will dispute me. You asked does he live among us, again I could answer but you would find better answers yourself. Are we his arms, legs, ears … etc? Sort of – but read and study to find out.

Hope I could help.

Mickey
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'd like to point out that THIS is part of what I find so frustrating. Sachant's telling me that people have to come to an unknowable God through faith and emotion; Mickey's telling Lee that feelings aren't enough, and one must establish proof of God through historical and textual research.

They both clearly believe that they've found God; they both insist that their way worked. They don't agree on the god in question, and don't agree on the method of finding Him.

That's extremely annoying to those of us who're still looking for a roadmap.
 

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Posted by mickey_mouse (Member # 4533) on :
 
Tom -

The point that I was trying to stick with throughout my answer was that finding God is something that you have to do on your own. There is no roadmap that everyone will interpret in the same manner. It is different for everyone. My way worked for me, that doesn't mean that it will work for you or Lee. I was just trying to point out a few basic steps that I felt were important to my finding the way to God, and I thought those would be useful to others.

The only true "roadmap" is the bible. Look there for answers, but don't expect to find them quickly. It has taken me years, and while many of my questions have been answered, more questions have been created along the way.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
The problem I have is that I've read -- and studied -- the Bible and other major works of religious literature, and have yet to feel "the spirit" from any of them.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
After Carl Sagan died, fundamentalist Christians started a rumor that he had had a deathbed conversion to Christianity. In response, his widow released a statement that no such conversion had taken place, because "Carl didn't want to believe, he wanted to KNOW."

Tom seems to want to know also. Perhaps that's why he calls himself agnostic, rather than atheist.

I think it's a fundamental human trait to want to understand things. Personally, I find this adequate "proof" that man invented god, instead of the other way around. That is, people assign reasons for how things happen, and those reasons stand until we find a better explanation. "God" has satisfied a lot of people, for a long time. But during that time, the concept of god has evolved.

Even in the Bible, god was plural (and in some cases feminine) in the beginning. The God of Abraham and Moses didn't claim to be the only god, he only claimed that he was the only one that should be worshipped (in particular by the hebrews; there was no stipulation that pharoah, for example, should have switched gods).

Likewise, the old testament god was cranky and vindictive, but suddenly god grew up and became loving and even tempered in the new testament.

Today, more and more the bible is providing reasons to QUESTION the existence of God, rather than proof that "He" exists. Go to alt.atheism and ask what caused them to lose their belief in God and many of them will say "I read the Bible." For others, biblical religion makes less and less sense, so traditionally non-evangelical religions, such as Hinduism and various pagan religions, especially Wicca, are found to be more satisfying to people who can't reconcile the bible with reality.

I've done the same thing Tom is doing. I have tried to "let God in" and change my beliefs. The difference is that since I lack belief, I call myself an atheist.

A question that comes up is this chicken and egg scenario, regarding belief. God will give you the "spirit" if you truly beleive, but you must beleive first. For someone who doesn't believe, but wants to know, what can you do to satisfy this requirement?

Atheists are often accused of "not wanting to believe" or "rejecting God," but you'll find that most of us aren't afraid of the truth, whatever that is. If God exists, I'd like to know it. Just as I'd like to know if there is life on other planets. It isn't likely to change my life dramatically on a day to day basis, but it would satisfy my curiosity.

I'm not asking for a bona fide miracle, or even direct communication. If there is a God who wants me to believe, all he has to do is flip that binary switch in my mind that defines belief. I call it the "God Bit." If I believed, then all the "evidence" that people point to: the beauty of life, the miracle of procreation, the elegance of natural laws, etc. would seem like proof, and that would be all it takes. I can't imagine a more honest and open position to offer God in return for this feeling than simply to be willing to allow my belief to be changed.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
LoL.. sorry Tom. It's a really really bumpy ride.

I've been a Christian from the time I was a child, but it wasn't until I was older that I truly understood. My parents took us all to church and in part out of tradition and in part out of the need to teach morals and in part out of their love for God.

When we got older, the choice to go or not go was ours. I had found so much great fellowship and even some not so great fellowship at church. As I grew in my faith I learned what made ME tick and learned that my faith was seperate from church. Church was a great place to go to learn and be with others that had the same love I did, but it wasn't where I left my faith when I walked out those doors.

I'll do the same thing for my daughter. I'll raise her as well as I can, and hopefully she'll find her own path and do what's best for her. Frankly it frightens me the kind of world we live in. More people are lost than ever before and I am not the type to shove anything down anyone's throat. I certain wouldn't do it to you either Tom. It's just not my nature and not how I was raised.

There is 'proof' if you want to call it that from history that many of the events in the old testament occurred and there is 'proof' that Jesus existed. There is the Bible too, but many people don't consider it 'proof' since it was written and then translated and translated and translated by fallable man. Yet, I still see the Bible as a valid and important work that should be followed. Think about it, all the advice given in the new testament (even if you take out Jesus' miracles heaven forbid) are about being good, kind and generous to people. Even the Ten Commandments from the Bible aren't asking people to do the impossible. Don't kill. Don't cheat on your spouse etc.

Proof is there, but I couldn't possibly show it to you in any way that I think you would accept. There are miracles all the time, but I don't think we should expect the Walls of Jericho or the raising of the dead in any earth shattering way... just yet. Many believe we are approaching Armageddon. I'd like to think we aren't.

There was a story on that miracles show I told you about that was amazing. A pregnant woman was in distress and they induced her baby early because they couldn't find signs of a heart beat. They delivered the baby and worked to revive her but could not get anything despite their best efforts. The mother and grandmother were told the baby was dead and that they could have time with her. They put the baby in the arms of the mother and still there was no stirring of the baby. Forty-five minutes went by and suddenly the baby started to breathe in the mother's arms. They were then told the baby would probably be brain-damaged from going so long without oxygen to her system. The little girl is three years old now and doing just fine. She's bright and agile and very much alive.

Maybe that's a story that you could say is coincidence too. There is no proof that it was a miracle other than science has no explanation for how it could have happened. I'm sure curiosity is just grinding into their very being. I'm the curious type too, but I think this is definetly a miracle.

Tom, if you really are curious and you mean it, I would be glad to talk to you more. I just don't want to step on your toes at all or on anyone elses.
 

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Posted by Qrios (Member # 5259) on :
 
Faith is a choice. Once you have chosen to believe, then you see a thousand signs of the spirit that enlivens, you see a thousand blessings, a thousand quirky coincidences and sometimes if you are truly fortunate, you can feel the universe move. To choose faith takes courage.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Glenn, reading the Bible and understanding it are two completely different things. I think that is something people tend to overlook.

Things like 'suffer a witch' is a mistranslation and means 'suffer a poisoner'. Two very different things and sadly people died over this poor translating.

[ June 11, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
My question is, is there really a Lee M? It almost seems a demonstration of some quote about the universe being the answer to a question... posed by Lee but Lee has not returned to give us guidance or refining interrogation.

I guess I do mostly believe in God because I feel blessed. And I had my doubts when I felt like my life was pretty bad. I guess that makes me pretty unremarkable. But maybe He gave me the bad times so I would appreciate the normal times.

Lately when I feel like I have something I want to complain about I wonder about people that I would think of as really having something to complain about. Like folks in the third world. It is all relative? I tend to think life is about not despairing.
 

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Posted by Brock (Member # 5205) on :
 
Tom

It depends on which theory of evolution you refer to. Darwin's explanation was warped by other scientists into a second theory that man descended from apes and the life on this planet started as unicelular and then progressed through mutation to algae to small organisms till the dinosaurs and finally us. That's the totally false theory of evolution that i had heard was disproven.

because if there's no way to change a creature's physique by very much at all then apes never would stand up and walk because they're bodies are shaped nothing like ours. they would've had to evolve much like pokemon to do such a thing.

The origional theory of evolution was simply that throught the course of time natural occurances would kill off species of animals. and that the strong would survive. This is scientific fact and the two thoughts, however represented are separate.

So tom how many works of religious literature have you actually read?

~Brock

~By the Matrix!

[ June 12, 2003, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: Brock ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Maybe that's a story that you could say is coincidence too."

I'm afraid I have to, since far more babies in that situation actually die. Frankly, I don't dare to suggest that this PARTICULAR baby was more special or more beloved of God than all the hundreds of other babies in the same plight who do not recover.

That said, I WOULD be delighted to hear the circumstances of your final conversion.

---------

Brock, you reveal a staggeringly flawed understanding of natural selection (the "original theory" of evolution that you're talking about) AND evolutionary theory. For that matter, I fail to see how the Human Genome Project has shown that primate locomotors could not have been altered in major ways by mutation and selection over hundreds of thousands of years, nor have I ever heard the scientists of the Genome Project make this claim. Your "evolve much like a Pokemon" bit is rather telling; there isn't an evolutionary biologist in the world that believes this to be necessary.

As to which major books of religion I have read: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Qu'ran, the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Tao-te-Ching, Dianetics, the Secret Fire, the Summa, the Apocrypha, and the Discourses. I've read dozens more works of apology and general theology, from C.S. Lewis to Bill Sears to Rumi to Richard Bach. *laugh*

[ June 12, 2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Tom, I wasn't really converted from anything to anything. I have always been my father's daughter even when I walked away and rebelled.
 

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Posted by arroway (Member # 5268) on :
 
I noticed a few people in previous posts saying that they don't see how there could be a benevolent, all-powerful God, given all the suffering in the world.

It's a toughie, I'll concede that, and I'm not going to pretend that I have THE answer that will satisfy everyone, but I wondered a little about the specific nature of the question?

Is it a question of why evil exists in the first place, or is it a question of why God hasn't come down to stop it from happening? Those are both legitimate questions, but they have seperate answers, to my mind.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'd argue that both questions are valid. If God created the universe, why did He create it with evil? If evil is in the universe, and God clearly acts to wipe it out when it suits Him -- by intervening to save the life of babies or knock down walls or, in a few cases, destroy almost all life on Earth with big floods -- why doesn't He see fit to be more proactive?
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Tom are you a parent at all?

It's like this. You want to creat things for your children, get them things etc, but you want them to grow up to be their own people.

You stand back and hope they don't get hurt. You let them choose their path and make their way in the world. You definetly step in to intercept the BIG misteps because if you don't you would feel like you aren't being a good parent. You let them make mistakes though, because you hope they learn from them and grow from them and overcome them.

Yes, he's all powerful, but how resentful would we be if we never found out how to do things on our own? It's the same as any child. If we aren't allowed to fail, how would we know we were succeeding?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
But God MADE evil -- at least according to most theologies; Mormons have an out on this one, since they don't believe He made the universe, or is all-powerful.

It's not that He's just stepping back and letting us fall into holes; He's actually DIGGING THE HOLES, and creating shovels so that we can dig our own -- and, if you believe in miracles, occasionally and arbitrarily preventing SOME people from falling into them.

[ June 12, 2003, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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You definetly step in to intercept the BIG misteps because if you don't you would feel like you aren't being a good parent.

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I don't think that's true. I think that God would tell you (maybe not via sounds, but by some means) that what your doing is a big mistake. However, He'd still let you go and screw up. <grin>

Tom, have you read The Worthing Saga? *****SPOILERS*****
God could step in and save us each time we made a mistake, just like those people could. However would be deprived of our most potent memories and lead lives that would seem meaningless to us.

OSC of course explains it better than I do, but I think that this is fundementally true, if we aren't free to screw-up how is doing the right thing an accomplishment?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Ohhh, and I think your right, that if God created our spirits as well as our body than He did create all the evil (which I'm not sure I could deal with from my God ) but if He didn't create our spirits than I don't think he's digging any holes for us.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"However would be deprived of our most potent memories and lead lives that would seem meaningless to us."

That's only valid if you accept two premises:

1) God did not create the universe and all its attributes, and is not responsible for the existence of evil OR our definition of nobility.

2) In EVERY CASE, when something bad happens, God has decided that the misfortune is worth too much to the potent memories of the survivors to intervene. By corollary, God DOES intervene -- when He presumably does -- because either that event isn't all that important, or because it's part of His plan to intervene, or because that particular person doesn't deserve to suffer from free will like the rest of us.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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1) God did not create the universe and all its attributes, and is not responsible for the existence of evil OR our definition of nobility.

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quote:

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2) In EVERY CASE, when something bad happens, God has decided that the misfortune is worth too much to the potent memories of the survivors to intervene. By corollary, God DOES intervene -- when He presumably does -- because either that event isn't all that important, or because it's part of His plan to intervene, or because that particular person doesn't deserve to suffer from free will like the rest of us.

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I admit that of all the possible situations the universe could be in it is unlikely that every single one would benifit people to have all of the negative things that happen, happen. However, if there is a God, don't you think that this situation does become likely? Don't you think that God would create such a universe where the negative things that happen do so to help us learn and grow?

I realize that sounds like God created those evil things, but I don't mean that. Only that God can see what we will do with our time and therfore how best others can benifit from it.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I realize that the above post wouldn't actually help anyone convert because it makes assumptions like "there is a God", but it's how I would understand the world given that premise.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Tom, you may have read many religious writings, but if your mind is/was closed, you prolably learned, and were touched about as much as you would learn, or be touched by game of solitare. Than again, I know very little about your personal condition,...

As for evil, and good, well, I have a diffrent Idea.

Darkness is, technically, the abscenece of Light. Thus, you can not turn on a lamp, and have it spill darkness over a room.

In the same way, I believe evil stems from an abscenece of God. God's rootword afterall, is good, or is it the other way around? (Both words have existed so long its impossible to know)

Why, if I believe that God is everywhere, is there evil?

The answer comes back to free choice. Man can chooses to turn away from God, and towards such things as Power, material whealth, lust, excetera. When this happens, man often forgets the teachings. No longer, are the ten comandments obeyed. Thus, thousands of people die, starve, and live in abject misery while others practive murder and gluttony without a thought towards thier spiritaul well being.

God will not, and does not simply fix all the problems of this physical world just becausewe believe in him. Instead, he gives us guidance, even answers through his phophets, and thier holy wiritings.
As was discussed earlier in this forum, the soul can gain far, far more by overcoming tests and difficulties, by helping others, and keeping faith, than could be gained is there were no problems in this world.

As for the life of a child, who is to say that a child miracualously saved from death might not (to use the cliche) find a cure to cancer, or maybe possitively affect the life of the kid who does grow up to find a cure for cancer, the connections and possibilities are endless. Besides, whether or not a person lives is not nesicarily a measure of God's love for them. As horribly and devastating as it is to loose a child, who is too say that that child is not happier, even purer, after bypassing life in this world?

One more thing. There are paterns. There is something called the Golden Mean. It is a proportion, by wich an overwelming amount of things in nature are constructed. These numbers can be found in the whorls of a sea-shell, the lenght and with of a leaf, tree, and even in athetically pleasing human faces, architecture, art, and designs. There is also Chaos theory...
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Tom, it's obvious your mind is closed. I can't talk to a brick wall. Sorry.

Again, I'll reiterate. Reading something and understanding it are two different things. I could read a nuclear physics book and still have no clue what they are talking about or what it really means to the big picture.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Religious people are always amazed to discover I've read the same things they have and haven't been blinded with a flash of revelation. Since, in many cases, their own churches teach that this is IMPOSSIBLE, they conclude that I did not have an open enough mind when doing this research.

Poppycock.

I did not do what many fundamentalist churches advocate -- which is to repeatedly beat myself over the head with the same scriptures and the required assumption that they MUST be true -- because, quite frankly, this is exactly how brainwashing works; I have complete confidence in my own eventual ability to convince myself of any given truth simply by repeating it to myself often enough.

That said, I've approached all these religions openly, honestly, and with the best of intentions, and have struggled to reconcile what seems like illogic or foolishness with my own experiences and basic philosophy. In almost all cases, it's impossible to do so.

There are a few religions that are, for the most part, logically consistent -- but even these require belief in earth-shattering events that don't seem to correlate to any historical evidence, or demand that someone accept some premises that I find violate certain observed facts about the universe.

In all these cases, these religions state that if you approach your research openly and honestly, you will find the truth for yourself. I have done so, and have not heard God. Period. So if God wants to get in touch, He knows where to find me.

I will not believe in a God that makes no sense, or is completely arbitrary, or behaves in a way that, were He human, we would call vain or evil or insane.

-------

"As for the life of a child, who is to say that a child miracualously saved from death might not (to use the cliche) find a cure to cancer, or maybe possitively affect the life of the kid who does grow up to find a cure for cancer, the connections and possibilities are endless."

Sure. Except that this denies free will.

If God saves the life of an infant, does that mean the infant WILL grow up to cure cancer (as an example)? Or does the infant, like other humans, have the freedom to grow up to be Hitler? And what about the infant that God KILLS? Does that infant HAVE to grow up to be Hitler, or could he have grown up to cure cancer?
 

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Posted by Brock (Member # 5205) on :
 
Tom

I said i was wrong about the claims of the human genome project, i conceded the mistake because my understanding of genetics is limited to a high school degree.

What's wrong with my understanding of the theory of evolution? If i'me confused i'd like it straightened out please.

Evolution being like how pokemon evolve was my view of their theory not a scientific claim of anyone's

~Brock
~He who lives by the Sword gets shot by us Archers
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Hmmm, well I'm not sure how Pokemons evolve...but I doubt it's near as copmlicated as we did it. <grin> I'm not really clear on what you think evolution (as the modern theory) is, if you want to go a little more in depth I could explain either why your going the wrong way on a one-way road or why your dead on.

Tom, first off I'm curious which religions you found logical? This is really just curosity I'm not about to jump around screaming depending on which one you choose.

Your right, I think that if you went into investigating a religion by beliefing that it is true...what's the point in not starting out in joining? I feel that I've done what you described and I feel that I have gotten a response. If you want to know why I think you didn't...I have no clue I can come up with various theories of course, but really it's all meaningless. It's between you and your creator or lack thereof.

quote:

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I will not believe in a God that makes no sense, or is completely arbitrary, or behaves in a way that, were He human, we would call vain or evil or insane.

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*Hi-fives Tom* That's why I never did believe, I never found anything that made sense to me (until now of course... ). I suppose that if God came down and spoke to me face to face and told me that Scientology was the one true faith I would....well if it was scientology I'd probably get an MRI but you get the point.

quote:

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So if God wants to get in touch, He knows where to find me.

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I admire this attitude..at least combined with what I know about you. You seem to lead a perfectly morally upstanding live so it's not like a lack of beleif has sent you to the gutter. If there is a God or if there isn't you seem to be getting along fine...perhaps belief would help you, but your really getting along fine, not that you needed me to tell you that.

Forgive everything stupid I've said, it's almost 2:00am.

As for your other question, I don't think that if God saves a child it He will do so because that child will cure cancer or anything, He does it because it is the most benificial thing to do overall. Of course that hard part of that statment is that when He lets a child die (OK, I guess if He saves a child you could say He killed this one) it would be because that is the most benefical thing for all of mankind. That doesn't necessitate that the dead child would have grown up to slaughter millions, perhaps they would've been an employee in a hardware store who has a strong faith but does not socialize well. <grin> Perhaps not. The point is that people don't necessarily die because they would've killed off thousands if they hadn't, it simply means that their death was necessary for other's growth.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Because Tom has such a way with words, I'll say little more than that I agree totally with him.

I've read many of the same religious text as the rest of you...and with an open heart. More, actually, in hopes of finding something rather than ruling something out. I've felt nothing, and have been disappointed. Why doesn't any of it ring true?

Miracles? Yes, they're one in a million shots. When you stop to realize that the other 999,999 times, a miracle has not been performed, this makes sense. Coincidence? Absolutely.

quote:

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I've heard that it's harder to be an atheist than anything. It's the total belief that your entire life and those of everyone around you is a complete and total accident with no purpose. That's utterly hollow and sad and dark and empty don't you think?

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quote:

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Again, I'll reiterate. Reading something and understanding it are two different things. I could read a nuclear physics book and still have no clue what they are talking about or what it really means to the big picture.

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So...you're saying that you have to believe in God before you're able to understand the proof that he exists? I think this theory nullifies hundreds of years of missionary work.

I think the only reason that the concept of God has lasted so long is that even though he was created to make sense of the world, he was created so that no sense could be made of him. The very fact that you couldn't prove his inexistance has been manipulated into proof that he exists. Most would agree that being logical is a good thing...yet religion is the enemy of logic.

So, like Tom...if God wants to talk to me, he knows where to find me.
 

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Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
 

quote:

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Tom, it's obvious your mind is closed. I can't talk to a brick wall. Sorry.

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*straps on armor and defends Tom's honor*

*agrees with Tom and Frisco for the most part*
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
No Frisco. I'm not saying you have to believe in God before you can understand the Bible etc. I'm saying that reading it and understanding it are two different things. You need a guide to understand what things meant at that time and what strange mistranslations slipped in there to fully get the jist of it. Then you'd have to decide... do you hold with the angry god of the Jews or the Son who died for the sins of man to give them eternal life in heaven? Do you hold with the God that struck down Sodom? (And rightfully so ) Or the Son who preached tolerance, love, sharing, goodness?

I think evolution needed a push. While it's comforting to know my life has purpose, it's not like I'm nothing without God but better with God in my life.

I've never said there aren't moral people that are not participating in a religion. I say they'd be better if they had God in their lives and invited Him in truelly and without judgement as if OUR judgement counts.

I can just say thought that you're not ready for these kinds of conversations. I'm not saying you don't feel you are, but It's just one of those things. Either your reached or you're still searching.

No one has ever beat me over the head with scripture or anything else. If anything I avoid the "you're all going to hell" types. That's not the message of God. God is kind, caring, generous and loving at the very least. I also avoid the "send us your money" types.

I could go into predestination, but that's a whole other can of worms. It's the one thing Methodists and Presbyterians have in difference between the way they function. The basic premise is God has a plan for everyone already. You're going to heaven or not based on that path already picked out. BUT, that doesn't mean you can live your life robbing and killing and still go to Heaven. It's a wierd oxymoron kind of belief. It boils down to, God has a plan for you and everyone else that is His child.

I'd stay and talk more, but I can see the non-believers rallying to support each other in their non-belief. When that happens, walls go up and can't be breached.

Some of my best friends have been Agnostic by the way so don't worry. I'm not the judgemental kind at all. Someday you may change your mind. Someday maybe God will change your mind. Maybe not. My only wish is that you have a happy and good life. That your days of shadow are always quick and drowned out by your days of sun.

I'm no minister. I'm actually a poor representation I think. Maybe a minister can answer your questions. I'd say priest, but I'm not Catholic and I've got my own bone to pick with them.

*shrug* My foundation is still strong in my faith. It's been through hell, shredded and back, but it's still there.

I wish you the best all of you still searching for your answers. I just think that strangers telling you how they feel aren't what you are looking for. You need something closer and I hope it comes.

Edit- Lots of errors in my typing, but the baby is bouncing on my leg and distracting me soo... sorry deal with it.

BTW Tom.. I think I'm starting to like you. You've got energy.

[ June 13, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

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No one has ever beat me over the head with scripture or anything else. If anything I avoid the "you're all going to hell" types.

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Some of us don't even think Hell exists. <grin>

quote:

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You're going to heaven or not based on that path already picked out. BUT, that doesn't mean you can live your life robbing and killing and still go to Heaven. It's a wierd oxymoron kind of belief. It boils down to, God has a plan for you and everyone else that is His child.

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A lot of Christian sects have this beleief, which actually kind of make sense if you just zoom out a bit. God has a plan, He knows what's going to happen in that plan, but your choices still determine if your going to Heaven or not, it's just that God already knows what those choices are. Of course you may disagree with that interpretation Sachant, but this is how I feel about it.

quote:

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I'd stay and talk more, but I can see the non-believers rallying to support each other in their non-belief. When that happens, walls go up and can't be breached.

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I have to say that while there are a few things I think people might change their mind about based on an online conversation, religion is not one of them. Remember Ender's Game? "I sing to a stone as easily as I sing to another singer". <grin> Tom, Frisco and Zotto might not be ready to become Christian, but I'm willing to stay here and tell them why I am. I hope you are too (and you've been pretty open this whole talk so I think you are ).

One last note, I seem to be disagreeing with you on a lot of stuff, just keep in mind, the stuff I haven't mentioned I did so because you already said it better than I could Sachant.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
LOL thanks Hobbes. No you hit it on the head about predestination. God has a plan.

Have you ever read "Embraced by the Light"? It's interesting though I'm not sure if I believe her.

This woman says she went to heaven and it was explained to her why things are the way they are. She also said that we choose the life we want to live before we're even born so that we can learn some lessons we have yet to learn.

I'm not so sure about that part. I'd like to think I'd want to be a wealthy person that started things like childrens hospitals and such. Then again, I could see why I'd choose the life I have now. It's been very very difficult but the good times outshine the bad.

And, yes, you're right, I'll probably stick around because I'm extremely stubborn and if I can clear anything up I will. I just don't ever want to shove something down someone's throat.

My great-uncle is a minister too and writes educational literature. I've never seen it, but I know it exists. He also was a good friend of Fred Rogers I've been told. I've been raised in a strong willed faith filled family. My one brother is definetly agnostic, though it's amazing how God can be damned or blessed as the occassion fits on his end. My other brother, I'm not sure what he is. My sister, goes to church sporatically. My parents go all the time though that wasn't always so for my father. Yet, I believe though we don't always make the right choices, we all have a deep seated belief that heaven awaits after life here. Now if we can only get there and have those big fudge sundaes without worrying about putting on weight.

I think I'd probably end up in Heaven's library watching all the events of the Bible and all the events of past history. Wouldn't that be the most awesome thing you could do?

Not to mention see the children and family I lost. (Miscarriage so they weren't full term.)

Everyone has varying degrees of what they believe and think based on their life experiences. I was raised within the Christian faith my whole life. Others I know are new Christians and far more fired up than I am. Course that reminds me of this phrase- Revelations 3:15-16 "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So because you are lukewarm, and netierh cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth." I've been on the lukewarm side at times because I have gotten too complacent in what I 'know'. Times like these when people question God and Jesus (you really can't leave him out in my mind) then I have to say something. I just can't be Judas and deny him. Thankfully I had a great youth group leader that taught me to mark up my bible or else I would have been searching for that passage for awhile.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
You've been Christian your whole life? I've been Christrian for a few days. <grin> Ahh well, we each have to start some where. Hmmm, if I'm wrong and there is only one Heaven (*points to self* Mormon ) I think I'd keep tagging along behind God trying to get him to tell me if all my wacky physics theories were true.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Chichis (Member # 5275) on :
 
What is God? What is important in life? Everyone answers these questions differently, therefore there is no answer. If you need God then you will have God. If you don't need God then God will not be there. It does not matter one way or the other. The only time that God matters between people is when they disagree. Problems arise when people try to convince unwilling others of their own personal truths.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Welcome to the fold Hobbes. I'll save any judgements on Mormonism since frankly I know too little to judge it. I have had Mormon friends before and I've never had an argument with any of them. They were all extremely nice, intelligent people.

Some say there is only one path to Jesus and thus Heaven. I go against the grain and say there are so many religions because there are many paths that fit many people. Yes, I'm a rebel. ;p

I'd probably walk along with you and hear about the physics questions you had. It could be interesting. Thanfully God has infinite patience so I doubt we'll drive Him crazy so ... maybe He'll just pass us off to the Physics angel or something.

There are answers Chichis. It's just we aren't enlightened enough or in touch with God enough to know them for ourselves. We're too self-absorbed and imperfect.

Edit... I forgot.. the secret of life is 42 by the way.

Email me if you ever want to talk Hobbes. I'd tell Tom to, but I think he'd end up arguing theology with my husband. LOL.. He just can't not argue. (the hubby that is)

[ June 13, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Hobbes has right idea...you guys might not be ready to become agnostic/atheist, but I'm here to explain it to you whenever you'd like.

As for Christianity, I doubt anything short of revelation could turn me back to that path. I've asked, and gotten no answer--seeked, and found nothing. I've knocked, and found the door to remain closed. I've asked for bread and have been given stones.

Scientology, on the other hand....
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
I have friends that are scientologists too Frisco. I've tried to read up on some of it, but I either wasn't concentrating or some of what I read was very conflicting and didn't seem to make much clear on how it worked.

I'm like a sponge. I love learning about how others think and other religions. They are all so intertwined and yet so very different that it starts soooo many arguements.
 

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Posted by Chichis (Member # 5275) on :
 
Many of those who are agnostic or (strict)atheist believe that those who believe in God are deluding themselves into believing in a supreme being who watches over them and meddles in the affairs of men.

Many of those who believe in God believe that those who don't are deluding themselves into thinking the world could be so perfect with a maker, or that they have not been enlightened to see the truth.

I can't help but be amazed at how often people believe they have a monopoly on the truth. It happens that so many times people believe they are right, that they hold the truth, and are ultimately proven wrong. The problem with God is that there is nothing to be proved. One of the defining characteristics of the God that most people believe in is that He operates outside the realm of human control. Those who believe they hold the truth, whether for or against God, cannot be proved wrong. However, humans often make a logical fallacy at this point. The lack of evidence against the existence of God is not evidence for the existence of God. The opposite is also true.

Let me tell you what I believe. I believe that I am not the keeper of truth. I believe that I have been wrong many times when I thought I was right. I believe that other humans are also not the keepers of truth. I believe they are on the same level playing field as me. I do not have the answers, and neither does anyone else.

When someone says, "You just haven't found faith yet," or, "You just haven't realized how impossible it is for their to be a God," or "God will reveal himself to you when he is ready," I continue to wonder how someone be so sure of their monopoly on the truth.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
That's what I'm saying. No one can say they have THE ultimate answers. Though we do have some darn good ones to go on. Whether they are the ultimate ones, we'll have to wait and see. I intend to keep living the best life I can and believing.

[ June 13, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
 
Ooh, I hope my above post didn't sound too rude or anything...frankly, I like these kinds of discussions, and everyone here has been pretty respectful and open-minded...my earlier post was just pointing out something that I thought was unfair.

And I did say I agreed with Tom and Frisco for the most part.

So...a smiley, because I'm enjoying this talk.
 

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Posted by ravenclaw (Member # 4377) on :
 

quote:

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Some of us don't even think Hell exists

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I have a question for you Hobbes. No actually I have about 873. but one for now- if you say you are Christian (which is certainly news to me, thanks for the update ) then you probably believe the Bible is true, right? I urge you to put down your Book of Mormon and read some of the Bible. If this is true then how can Hell not exist?
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
LoL.. no worries Zotto!

Although my mom tells me to stay away from these kinds of discussions, I just can't help myself. I like seeing other people's points of view.

I also like to make sure people know I'm not the one to judge them. Not my yob. (Yes, the y is on purpose. )

I understand why there is doubt and questioning. Questioning is good. If we don't question we are not our own persons.

I've known devout Christians that can quote scripture but have no idea what it means. I've argued with someone before that says door to door preaching is the is the only way to spread the word of God. So I found a passage that says that's not true.

John 17:9 I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;

Basically it means pray for those you know... speak to those who come to you and ask. As much as I would like to stomp my foot and turn my back on Tom or Frisco, I can't because I have to whether they believe what I say or not. To not answer their questions as well as I can (which isn't so great in my opinion) would be to turn my back on those that ask.

Also the jist of the entirety of the passage means that you should change what you can, but don't worry about changing everything.

He had to concede that perhaps it wasn't entirely a good idea to talk to people that didn't care to hear what you have to say.

Edit- Uh oh.. Ravenclaw opened the can of worms! Since we're asking questions... I don't know how true this is but I heard the author ( Smith is it?) said that he made it all up while on his deathbed. It could have been people putting words in his mouth though.

Also, what do you mean by 'if there's only one heaven'? That confuses me. There are seperate heavens in Mormonism?

[ June 13, 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Hmmm, well I had a long discussion about this on the other side, hopefully at some point I'll get the eneregy to go dig it up and paste in a few choice quotes (others always seem better able to express their ideas than me).

As for the deathbed thing, Joseph Smith died when he was shot and fell out of a window so I don't think that's really applicable.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by ravenclaw (Member # 4377) on :
 
well I appreciate you answering my question Andy.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Hmm, I couldn't figure out how to link to a specific post, so I'll just quote it here (this is in response to my question which basically exactly the same):

quote:

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actually, you'll find flames, fire and brimstone mentioned in the Book of Mormon as well. Look at 2 Nephi chapter 9 for example:

quote:
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O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.
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Later on in the Book of Mormon there are less references to flames etc and more references to hell as pain or torment. This could be due to the fact that the idea of hell as a fiery pit (gehenna) was particularly strong for those who lived near Jerusalem (Like Nephi and Jacob in the Book of Mormon) because there was a garbage pit near the city which burned constantly and so the imagery would have been quite vivid for them. Later authors would have been subject to different cultural imagery more specific to the Americas. What strikes me especially are the constant associations of [url=http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=chain+hell&search.x=0&search.y=0[/url]chains and captivity with the idea of hell in the book of Alma and then in third Nephi "gates of hell" is a common phrase. This difference in emphasis may be cultural as I said or it could be simply due to the fact that the different books were written by different authors who wrote using different phrasology.

At any rate, whatever imagery is used to convey the idea it is clear that the Book of Mormon authors were using metaphor to convey the following idea:
quote:
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And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.
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Hell is basically a state of suffering brought on by inability/ unwillingness to change. Every human being at some time or another has allowed habit/culture/comfort dictate his or her actions over what they know to be good or right. People who do so frequently find themselves trapped in terribly unhappy situations they can't get out of (think of drug addicts, or spouse abuse or just about any human failing). To escape such a situation requires knowledge of a better way and the faith to act. It is easy to see that this is the case. I think that hell is essentially the same thing- people for one reason or another find themselves unable or unwilling to make the changes which will bring them happiness and so they are stuck in their misery. It is as if they are captives to their own worst natures- they are chained to their bad habits.

Hence, hell in my view is not a punishment God inflicts on the wicked but is a state of suffering the wicked inflict on themselves by their own choice.

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Hobbes
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
The different Heavens is three states of Glory. No matter what happens to you in this life you will achieve one of those states of Glory. Meaning that even if your evil, you'll still obtain happieness, but those who choose to do good and progress more achieve a higher state of happieness.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by ravenclaw (Member # 4377) on :
 
That answers the question about Hell from a Mormon point of view I suppose. Which doesn't answer my own question at all.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Wow Hobbes.. so a murdering pedophile deserves to be happy after they die? I'll stick to my fire and brimstone hell thank you very much. If I find out that they DO get to go to that kind of happiness, I'm going to rebel, take over heaven and make my own pit of fire.

I mean what? They get Harley Davidsons, whores, booze and cigarettes while everyone else gets banquets at fine dining restaraunts?

[ June 14, 2003, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Sachant ]
 

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Posted by Adi Gallia (Member # 3561) on :
 
Answer this, anyone, everyone
If one no longer believes in the sun, will it still shine?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Sachant, are you saying that the only thing keeping you from being a biker chick is the fear of Hell?
 

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Posted by Chichis (Member # 5275) on :
 
I'm not entirely convinced that the sun exists, yet it appears to continue shining every day.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Whether or not we believe in it, the sun will shine. I doubt that it even gives two craps that we're here.

Though I wonder when it does something cool, like an eclipse, if it's not showing off.

Likening God to the sun isn't really a good analogy, though...maybe compare him to something a little more abstract and mysterious. Like Teflon. I mean, if it doesn't stick to anything, how does it stick to the pan?!
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
LOL.. no it's not the only thing keeping me from being a biker chick. Road rash is.

I just have a real problem believing that if someone does evil acts that they get to live the good life after they die.

I mean... how exactly do you define levels of happiness. Are they only somewhat happy? Do they only get beernuts instead of hotwings? If they happen to like beernuts over wings and really are happy about it, is some angel suppossed to come along and say "I'm sorry, you're too happy, I must take away your beernuts so that you're only just so happy."

I can see if someone that commits evil acts truely repents. While that too is hard to swallow, that's a forgiveness thing that is often tough. But, to not repent and STILL get rewarded? That's just ridiculous. I mean what? They didn't have free will so didn't choose to do those bad things? How would you justify rewards for a badly lived life?

That's what I would like to know. While the thought of Hell isn't something that good people fear, the thought may actually keep others who would normally do things they shouldn't in check. Who am I to say what is in another's mind though. I certainly couldn't prove that.

I'm just saying, that (like in the example) murdering pedophiles do not deserve 'Glory'. They chose to do those things and act that way. Of course, my luck, they'll be atheists and instead of going anywhere, their souls will disintegrate like in Incarnations of Immortality. I guess at least that way they could never be reincarnated if we are reincarnated to live many lives.

It's one of the strangest concepts I've ever heard. It isn't a slam against Hobbes in anyway, but I'm curious the justification for it let alone, where Jesus has ever said such a thing in a verified text. While others say they don't trust the Bible... I certainly cannot trust the Book of Mormon if these are the things it is teaching. While I'm sure most Mormons don't think they can go rob and steal and go to heaven, there probably are some that justify their actions with 'at least I'll still be happy in the afterlife'.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
The thing is, if you believe that the only thing necessary to go to Heaven is repentance -- or faith -- someone can still sin and lead a terrible life and get into Heaven as long as they eventually feel bad about it. (Note: if you believe in predestination, this is clearly not the case. Of course, if you believe in predestination, you may as well lay down and die somewhere for all the good LIVING does you.)

By the same token, someone who leads an exemplary life but does NOT repent or does NOT convert is, according to many Christians, damned to an eternity of agonizing torture. FOREVER. Forever. Think about that.

How can you possibly think of the afterlife as being a form of "justice" with those alternatives in place?
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
It's not a form of justice but I think more of an earned seat in the house of God. If you don't earn it, you do not get to go to heaven and live among the good people that worked hard to be better than they were all of their days.

I don't think predestination guarantees you are going to heaven or hell because you still have to make your choices through life.

I think true repentance is very difficult to come by. It has to be made out of genuine regret than fear of hell.

Other than that, as I said, I have a hard time with forgiveness for murdering pedophiles etc. I'm not THAT enlightened as of yet.
 

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Posted by Lee M. (Member # 5203) on :
 
OK OK OK, I get the point, I didn't think what I said would make 3 pages worth of replies, all I wanted was a answer, it is clear to me that I can't, or can, but most likley can't get a answer from GOD, if you feel the urge to write how you feel about GOD, go ahead, be my guest, I won't and can't stop you. I guess I know now people actually listen to my words, and I'm only 13.....I guess this is pretty interesting.
-Lee
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
There have actually been some very insightful twelve-year-olds on this site.
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Age often has little to do with insight and intelligence. Let alone an ability to relate to bigger notions and opinions from others.
 

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Posted by Lee M. (Member # 5203) on :
 
Could you relay that to me so I can comprehend it..please.
-Lee
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
Just because you're young doesn't mean you can't understand.
 

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Posted by Lee M. (Member # 5203) on :
 
Explain
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I've never seen someone get upset about his topic receiving too many replies.

Heck, I can't even remember the last time one of my topics went to three pages.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
How about the anti-spanish feelings one? <grin>

What exactly do you want explained Lee?

Hobbes

[ June 15, 2003, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
 

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Posted by Sachant (Member # 5206) on :
 
LOL.. I agree Frisco. I was even going to ask if the mysterious Lee just did a post and run.

I don't think there is much else to explain though.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
[edit: Are you talking about this Anti-Spanish thread...which I didn't even post to, let alone start?]

[ June 15, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
 

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Posted by WedgeAntilles (Member # 5154) on :
 
Lee M.

There is a God. I know this in myself and never needed to be taught it. I knew him before I ever read a scripture or any other thoughts about him from any other person.
Why is there such evil in the world? Why then is there good in the world? Because people choose to do one or the other.
What does God want? To choose good.
Question is - what do you CHOOSE to do?
 

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Posted by Adeimantus (Member # 5219) on :
 
Please define good and evil. I know one from the other as far as social behavior, but I want to know how we would attain a path of pure good or evil.

Edit: I don't know if anyone would intentionally choose evil, I think its more like a path of self interest or collective interest.

[ June 16, 2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Adeimantus ]
 

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Posted by Lee M. (Member # 5203) on :
 
I am not "upset" .... you know what I am not gonna explain....go ahead keep talking.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
I wanted to correct the notion that "mormons" have 3 flavors of afterlife. There is a 4th for the profoundly sinful, though it is customary to not speculate on who will wind up there. Mormons are even known to argue over whether Judas Iscariot belongs there since he was "part of a plan". Though I tend to think he wasn't an indispensible part and chose his role in it.

A president of the Mormon church, John Taylor, said that the third kingdom was so glorious that if we could see it we would commit suicide just to get there. Thus the deduction that it is the realm of some killers and also relatively posh.

My own heresy is that the afterlife is just going to be more work and development and existence. Thus the cosmic importance of not getting easily discouraged.

I know a lady who feels very strongly that heaven won't be heavenly unless certain people she knows (who she otherwise doesn't think would make it) can be there.

Another personal heresy- the worse thing that can happen to you in this life is not to get hurt, but to cause hurt to another. This is quite problematic in the view of God being responsible for so much of the hurt in the world.

When my baby died I wondered how God could justify doing that to me. I was really angry at Him, but I have to say it never provided greater comfort for me to think He didn't exist. It just made me mad, is all. It's like, God had better be real because He has got some explaining to do.
 

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