quote:

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“Four hours,” said Will. “At dawn we’ll head for the top. We’re not much of an army, but with God’s help we’ll be more than Unwyrm can handle.”

“How do we know God doesn’t want Unwyrm to win?” asked Angel.

“If he wins, we’ll know God wanted him to.” Will smiled. “Reality is the most perfect vision of God’s will. It’s discovering God’s will in advance that causes all the trouble.”

“The fate of mankind is in the hands of a fanatic,” said Angel. “As usual.”

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-- Wyrms end of chapter 16, p. 290 in the paperback edition I have.

Edit to add context.

[ October 15, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by Pelbar Spin (Member # 5791) on :
 
Ahhhh...thank you very much.

 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
dkw

How did you do that?!


 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
She grabs the book and looks for it. I could do it too, and so could you. dkw just isn't lazy like me.

dkw
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
OFF TOPIC: I've been a little trepidatious about reading this particular book...I've heard some questionable things about it. What do you guys think?
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Hmmm, I don't remember anything wrong with it. Are you talking about sexual or violence?

(Don't take my word for nothing wrong, I have no problem with A Clockwork Orange ).

Hobbes
 

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Posted by DOG (Member # 5428) on :
 
SPOILERS

Let's see...it contains scenes of masturbation, the rape of underage women, and talking heads in jars (not "The" Talking Heads; just talking heads)
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Wyrms vies with Speaker for the Dead to be my favorite OSC book.

Edit: I’m not sure I like the way that sounds coming right after DOG’s post.

[ October 16, 2003, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Hmmm, I think Dog makes it sound a lot worse than it is, but once again, I often don't have a problem with sex and violence in books (if they are used in meaningful ways that is...)

Hobbes
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
I was told there is interspecies sex as well. Say, is the "They Might be Giants" song "Hall of Heads" based on that book?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
::raises eyebrow::

Hm. I must say that this isn't convincing me to read the book.

I hate having not read one of his books. (There are still a few though...)
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Narn, have you read Hart's Hope? Because I find Wyrms (which I just reread last week) much less "squicky"). In both, though, the violence, sex, etc. is an non-graphical as possible, and absolutely necessary to the plot.

But yes, there is interspecies sex. In fact, it's a rather significant plot point.

Nonetheless, I would recommend both books. Well, to most people. My brother still gives me a hard time about Hart's Hope. I should've had him read Ender's Game . . .
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Hm...I'll have to think about it. I'm interested in reading it because I've heard wonderful things about the characters involved. I'm always a sucker for a likeable character.

Yeah, Hart's Hope is one I'll never read again. That should tell you my opinion on it. If Wyrms comes even close, I should probably pass.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
DOG is exaggerating. The only part I think he got right is the talking heads in jars. And the inter-species sex is between a human and a sentient alien, not a human and an animal. (That makes a big difference to me, YMMV.)
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
What does WMMV mean?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*has deja vu*

I just explained this yesterday on the other forum I frequent -- weird!

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

-o-

Narn, I almost never reread Hart's Hope (even though I own it) but I take Wyrms out from the library every few years to reread it.

Let me ask you this: are you glad that you read Hart's Hope once? I will never read Lost Boys again, but I'm glad I read it the one time.

[ October 17, 2003, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]
 

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Posted by Tzadik (Member # 5825) on :
 
Hello Hatrack, first time here, and like it a lot! Still figuring out how this all works. Bit lost still
 

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Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
 
I see you.

edit: And you're lucky. It was weeks before someone addressed me directly the first time. See all the heartache, soul-searching and angst I'm saving you, wondering if people don't like you, if they're ignoring you, if you even exist?

[ October 17, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Lissande ]
 

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Posted by Tzadik (Member # 5825) on :
 
That wasn't all that difficult, after all, was it? Is anyone talking here? Wake up people!!!
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Tzadik: go ahead and give your opinion. I guess sentient interspecies sex may not be deemed as such by the other species, such as in the Alien movies.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
rivka: to tell you the truth, I'm NOT glad. I'm not even glad that I let myself read it all the way through instead of throwing it across the room and taking it back to the library like I felt like I should have done.

But. That doesn't mean that Wyrms would do the same thing to me. Songmaster had some questionable stuff in it that was just enough for me to say that I probably won't read it again...but I am quite glad that I read it at least once.

*shrugs*

I'll just have to read the darn thing.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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I was told there is interspecies sex as well. Say, is the "They Might be Giants" song "Hall of Heads" based on that book?

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quote:

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I didn't care for Wyrms as much as I do most everything else OSC writes. Don't get me wrong, Wyrms had an excellent storyline and was gripping, but I feel it was maybe a bit too graphic, sexually. I enjoy OSC because of his display of morals in almost everything he writes. His books aren't filled with foul language, and numerous sexual encounters. I wouldn't be embarrassed to see my kids reading an OSC book. I would reccomend almost all OSC books to my grandmother, but probably not Wyrms.

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That was Pelbar Spin that wrote that about the book in question. What do you guys think of this comment? (Those of you that have read the book?)
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I also would not recommend Wyrms to my grandmother. I recently read it again for the second time. The stuff that bothered me still bothered me, but I didn't seem to get as much out of it.

This is in contrast to say, Hart's Hope, which I also wouldn't recommend to my grandmother, but which I really got a lot out of. Wyrms had some interesting ideas, but it seemed a little on the thin side for a Card book.

By itself, I don't like it that much, but I really enjoy reading Card's books and seeing proto versions of things that he re-visited in later books. Like Lannik Mueller being a proto-Alvin, Ansset as a proto-Ender, and the aliens in Wyrms being proto-Descolada. I enjoy being able to put his books into a historical perspective.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Ever since I found out I have Obessive Compulsive tendencies, I no longer flip out as much over the crudity in books that is just part of life (for some people, apparently). But I also think (this is me thinking) that some of the early books may have had more explicit content because Card was still getting established as an author.

On the subject of interspecies sex- Men and women assign such different meanings to sex that such a storyline could serve to explore that. Not that I know it does, because I didn't read it.

[ October 20, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I always imagine Card mellowing out as he has gotten older, resulting in his stuff not being disturbing as it used to be.

IIRC, in Maps in a Mirror, Card talks about how in his early career he actively tried to not sound like a Mormon. Maybe his reasons for being more graphic were related to his desire to be an author who is Mormon, instead of a Mormon author.
 

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Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
 
I read Wyrms a second time, because the first time I was too wrapped up in worrying about the sex, etc, to enjoy the book. But I enjoyed it the second time, and now I consider it one of my favorites.

And trust me when I say I'm a stodgy old prude. There are a lot of books and movies that are too graphic for me. And I rarely watch television these days, because it's far too sexualized.

However, the sex in Wyrms is different. It's there. It exists. It's disturbing. But there's also a sense of moral outrage whenever it's abused. It's not glorified. It's put in the context it should be.

For me, I'm relieved there are books out there that deal with less-than-savory issues, that aren't afraid to be a bit more graphic--tastefully so, of course--all while putting these issues in a moral context.
 

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Posted by Grandma Edie (Member # 5771) on :
 
Narnia (and others): WYRMS is a rather different deal than HART'S HOPE.
In HART'S HOPE there is something to make the reader cringe on almost every page! When I first read it, I also thought that I would never read it again...but when I did, in preparation for my book about OSC, re-reading everything, I found that I didn't really dislike HART'S HOPE as much as I had thought I did.

WYRMS is a different kind of book. For one thing, the young woman is the leader of a quest, not the prize at the end of the quest, or someone to be rescued. For another, the characters have allegorical names: Patience is the daughter of Lord Peace, one of her allies is Will, etc. The most "questionable" part is right at the end; up to then, it is endurable, and often deeply moving, and always original.

Neither HART'S HOPE nor WYRMS is the very best that Card can do, I feel; but on the whole I am very glad that WRYMS is back in print. If I had known that WYRMS was coming back, I would have given it more space in my book than I did.

Grandma Edie, also known as Edith S. Tyson, author of ORSON SCOTT CARD: Writer of the Terrible Choice.
 

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Posted by Wetchik (Member # 3609) on :
 
Tell me, does the title imply a terrible choice that was made, or does it mean that OSC had to make/made a choice between terrible things?
 

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Posted by Grandma Edie (Member # 5771) on :
 
The CHARACTERS have terrible choices to make; all the "good" alternatives have disappeared. Which one is the least bad?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Edie, thanks so much for your summation. It makes me feel better that Hart's Hope made someone else cringe too. But, I think I will read Wyrms.
 

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Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
 
Narnia,

I don't know if I've mentioned this to you before, but every time I read one of your posts I feel we have something new in common. Are you sure you aren't a long lost relative?

Anyway, I felt the same way about Hart's Hope, and I haven't read Wyrms yet. The whole time I was reading Hart's Hope, I was afraid anyone that walked up would read over my shoulder and accuse me of reading a dirty book. I also kept feeling like I should be putting the book down, but I never did. Even after reading it, I can't say that I didn't like the book, because I love OSC's writing, and I become attached to his characters. It's a big self-conflict. I've had similar reactions on a *much* lighter scale with Saints (which I loved!), Lovelock (which I also loved, and am anxiously waiting the next two), and Songmaster (which I have mixed opinions of).

I definitely know how you feel. I have been contemplating reading Wyrms for a while. I became a little hesitant after reading Hart's Hope, but I nevertheless will still most likely read it.

Aside-- I think I need to look into Grandma Edie's book.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
It's true. You're my "I want to be a conductor" twin. I've noticed it too. We're all connected actually because Annie is my other twin, and she's triplets with Jon Boy and katharina. So, we're all twins a few times removed.

I had the same mixed feelings about all of those books you mentioned (though I haven't read Saints yet...yes, I'm a heathen!!) but I loved them just the same. I can't say that I didn't love Songmaster, or Lovelock (which is one of my favorites to this day)...so I think we should read Wyrms. Let's read it before Christmas and then we can tell each other what the other thought. Deal?

(Aren't you the one that also hasn't read the Homecoming series for the same reasons that I haven't?? I think we ARE twins!)
 

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Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
 
Deal.

Yep, that's me that hasn't read Homecoming yet. I actually checked out the first book from the library, but I've already renewed it twice, and I haven't started it. I bought the last two in the series in hardback because it was only $2.50, so I'm thinking I'll have to read it someday.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
[off topic]So are you at BYU? Are you in a choir? If so, which one are you in?? We probably know some of the same people.[/off topic]

[ October 28, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by hansenj (Member # 4034) on :
 
We seem to have hijaked this thread pretty well, haven't we?

Yes, I'm in the Women's Chorus and this is my second year. I plan on auditioning for Concert Choir next year, but it's pretty dang competitive, so I'll probably end up in Women's Chorus again.

Aside...If you saw the Relief Society Broadcast on Sept. 27, you saw me sing. My family told me I was on the screen about 4 times.

Edit: I'm short and I sing first soprano, so most of the people I know from Women's Chorus are in that general vicinity of the choir.

[ October 28, 2003, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: hansenj ]
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
I have a couple friends in Concert Choir... last year they did a piece called "Wayfaring Stranger." It was accompanied on the piano by the arranger/composer Nate Bigler. He's one of my bestest friends in the world. i.e. We dated a few years ago and are now just friends. Anyway, there's also Chris Lewis. He's in Concert Choir. I'll have to think for a while to see if I know anyone in the Women's Chorus. All of my friends are slowly leaving Provo, so I don't know as many people there as I used to.

*sorry for hijacking the thread*

[ October 28, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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