Greetings, all. I'm an 8th grade teacher of the gifted and talented in Indiana who teaches Ender's Game to his class. I'm interested in acquiring the two articles related to Ender's Game from the 1987 issue of Fantasy Review. I understand that Elaine Radford wrote an article comparing Ender to Hitler, and OSC had an essay refuting this comparison. I think it would spark some interesting discussion in my classroom. Would anybody happen to have a copy of these articles that could forward them to me? My class would appreciate it, I'm sure.
Sean Watson Indiana
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I understand where you are coming from, as a former English teacher. I understand that the best discussions are the ones that involve some sort of debate.
But it's pretty touchy . . . you're coming here and asking us to direct you to articles that somebody many of us admire a great deal considers deeply insulting and personally offensive. It's one thing to debate about whether or not Mark Twain was racist; he's dead. With Orson Scott Card, the issue is not merely academic. Can you imagine if groups of strangers were debating whether or not you were a horrible human being, and not even because they found evidence through their own reading that you might be, but simply because their teacher wanted to liven things up a bit?
Think about how things like this come to exist. It's entirely plausible that Radford made these claims to be controversial--to "liven things up a bit" herself. I went to grad school for literature, and I remember how the game is played. You need to somehow make your critical analysis stand out from others, and be interesting. Now, because she wrote this, irresponsibly in many of our eyes, it gets picked up by English teachers, not because they see this trend, but because it makes a lesson livelier. And so this allegation gets propagated regardless of its factuality.
OSC's response to the issue is in the Student Research area of this site. A link to this is under the word "Home" on the banner at the top of the page. If I feel up to it, I'll seach for it and provide a link later.
But I would encourage you to reconsider debating with your kids whether or not a living breathing compassionate and moral man is in fact evil, just for the heck of it. Or to at least understand why many of us won't be jumping over ourselves to help you.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Well, for being so controversial, the article hasn't made much of an impression on the web. The search for the full title, Ender and Hitler: sympathy for the superman, generates only five hits on google. The full article and the response do not seem to be available free of charge on the web. The most convenient for you, if you decide to use the article, might be to copy it in a library that carries the magazine in question. Otherwise you ought to be able to order the article here as well as Card's response.
Edit: although the source seems to be in Australia, which might pose a problem...
[ October 23, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
I actually ran across this article for the first time reading old magazines in my high school library. It may well be that you could find it closer to home.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Was it you that pointed it out to OSC, or did he already know of it?
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I recall both the article and the response being in those giant "Literary Criticism" volumes that just about every public library carries in the refrence section.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
<--- Really could not see the logical connection between Ender and Hitler in that article. :/
Posted by Grandma Edie (Member # 5771) on :
Of course you cannot "see the logical connection" in her article because there isn't one. She isn't actually responding to Card's books, ENDER'S GAME and SPEAKER FOR THE DEAD as she claims. She is responding to non-existent books that she made up in her own mind (probably without realizing it)possibly from some buried association, or from some stereotype about Mormons. Her criticisms have no accurate reference to anything that Card ever wrote.
Grandma Edie, also known as Edith S. Tyson, author of ORSON SCOTT CARD: Writer of the Terrible Choice.
(p.s. I am not a Mormon, and I do not waste time on this matter in my book.)
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
quote: It's entirely plausible that Radford made these claims to be controversial
Yeah see, maybe so. Cause to play the Devil's Advocate, she has a point. On the outside looking in, at least.
Hitler tried to annihilate practically an entire sentient race of people with the goal of saving the world. Ender did annihilate practically an entire sentient peopled race with the goal of saving the world.
There wasn't going to be another bugger attack, but Ender thought there was. So from the outside looking in, Ender was a Hitler. But from the inside, Ender didn't even think he had another choice. He had to save the world from what he thought was assured destruction. Never mind the fact that he also happened to think it was a simulation. If someone punches you, and you think he's drawn a knife, and you think he's going to kill you with it, and you have a knife you are going to try to kill him. That's just the way it is. And it's not wrong- but it could still be genocide. So much has to be taken on point of view.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I haven't read the article, but I thought the whole point of the title Xenocide was that Ender was considered a horrible non-person by the human race. Also try to get a discussion going about Han Qing Jiao as a human being.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Yeah, I haven't read the article either, but I feel the argument is moot. Even if Card was portraying Ender as Hitler (which I don't believe, but still), Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide serve as proof that he wasn't justifying Hitler's actions.
And let's not forget that, at the time of the holocaust, few people were supporting Hitler, while, in Ender's Game, everybody on Earth was supporting Ender. Ender was working for the people; Hitler was working against the people.
[ October 29, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Hitler did have the cooperation of a lot of his folks, plus the compliance of folks who hoped to avoid becoming his victims.
Maybe the Radford article appears alone sometimes because it is cheaper...
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote: Hitler did have the cooperation of a lot of his folks, plus the compliance of folks who hoped to avoid becoming his victims.
Yes, but worldwide, the majority of people considered Hitler an enemy.
Think of it this way: Ender didn't start a war (or, if you want to get technical, add logs to an already-lit fire) on Earth by elminating the Buggers. Hitler did. It wasn't 'til years later that Ender was hated, while Hitler was hated only a few years after taking office.
Posted by Wetchik (Member # 3609) on :
quote: Hitler tried to annihilate practically an entire sentient race of people with the goal of saving the world. Ender did annihilate practically an entire sentient peopled race with the goal of saving the world.
Yes, that might be true suntranafs, but that doesn't mean that the rather disgustingly caustic "writer" (if you want to honor her with that name because I don't) was justified in saying that OSC was a Hitler enthusiast because he supposedly modeled Ender after him.
[ October 29, 2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Wetchik ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
All I'm saying is that comparing Ender to Hitler doesn't take a lot of creativity.
Obviously Ender did what he did as a child and he was burdened with remorse for the rest of that earthly existence.
Does anyone here believe Hitler was ever remorseful for all the people he ordered killed?
Posted by Hazen (Member # 161) on :
Radford didn't just compare Ender to Hitler, she said (if I understand it correctly) that what Card "really" meant in the Ender books was an apology for Hitler. That is absurd and unjustifyable.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
The only connection I see between Hitler and Ender is that they both are tied to Genicide. Beyond that there is no connections, and boy did I try just to give the benifit of the doubt.
Hitler knew exactly what he was doing. Ender didn't know until it was too late. Hitler had no remorse for what he did (except that he didn't actually accomplish what he wanted). Ender not only had remorse, but tried to repent by trying to bring the buggers back to existance. Ender was under the control of others, and Hitler controlled others. Those who followed Hitler said they were only following orders. Ender was an underling who refused to consider that he was just following orders. Hitler wrote "Mine Comf"<sic> before he committed Genicide to justify his future actions. Ender wrote "Speaker for the Dead" after his actions to condemn what he did.
If there is any comparison between Ender and Hitler, it is how they are direct opposites.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"...that doesn't mean that the rather disgustingly caustic "writer" (if you want to honor her with that name because I don't) was justified in saying that OSC was a Hitler enthusiast because he supposedly modeled Ender after him."
Hey, don't look at me, Wetchik- I didn't read the article. Just playin' devil's advocate.
[ October 31, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: suntranafs ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Genicide?
Genecide?
Genocide?
Hmmmm . . . . First corrrect spelling wins the prize . . . go ahead - place your votes now!
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Jenn aside.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Genocide?
*without looking at a dictionary*
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Sorry - mega wins!
(Smart aleck, Icky!)
Posted by Gabriel (Member # 5865) on :
I would like to reply on the comparison of Ender and Hitler. This would be my first post on this board and I would like to say before I reply to this that I am a huge fan of OSC's books and I am not trying to hurt his reputation or anything of the sorts. First off Ender could very well be like Hitler in some sorts...He wiped out an entire race of Alien life forms he thought the world was threatened by. Just like Hitler tryed to wipe out the Jewish people in Germany because he thought they were a threat to him. However, Ender did feel remorse for what he did and did decide to help the Alien race as it were. Where Hitler killed himself like a coward. I did not post this in defence of the horrid women who wrote the article, but I would like to say that I could see how Ender would be mistaken for Hitler in some ways not all. Thank you for listening to what I have to say I could understand how some of you will be a little upset about what I said but I am only giving my oppinion on the matter not trying to down size the wonderful author we all know and love.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Welcome to the forum, Watson and Gabriel!
quote:I understand that Elaine Radford wrote an article comparing Ender to Hitler, and OSC had an essay refuting this comparison--Watson But I would encourage you to reconsider debating with your kids whether or not a living breathing compassionate and moral man is in fact evil, just for the heck of it. --Mega
Mega, I see your point regarding the literary criticism racket. Yet you may be slightly unfair to Watson. The debate could be over a fictional character, Ender, and how he compares to Hitler. Peter and certainly Achilles were evil characters, but this does not mean the author who created them is. Perhaps the Radford article goes to far and portrays OSC as a Hitler apologist (absurdly), I don't know as I have haven't read it. That could be part of the debate as well: what are the parameters of literary criticism? What can we infer from an author's writings about said author's morals and character?? St. John the Divine wrote at length about Satan, yet most wouldn't label him evil because of those writings. The same could be said for Milton and Dante.
Posted by Gabriel (Member # 5865) on :
Thanks for welcoming me Morbo...Also thanks for kind of backing me that was great as well. I know other people will trash me but I was stating oppinion no harm in that. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, Gabriel. I'm not going to "trash" you, but I will correct some inaccuracies in your first post.
quote: Just like Hitler tryed to wipe out the Jewish people in Germany because he thought they were a threat to him.
There is no evidence that Hitler actually considered the Jews a real threat. Rather, his writings make it quite clear that they were a useful scapegoat. Uniting a country by creating a common enemy is an old tactic -- and often a very effective one. At least temporarily.
While the Allied Powers would have been a more logical target of German anger -- and soon became one in fact as well -- Hitler (may his name be blotted out) knew that to unite his country and take power, he needed an enemy that was both weak and easily accessible. The Jews were already hated and despised, and some had economic power he hoped to take.
Contrast that to Ender, a child who thought he was only fighting a simulation. And look at the enemy in that case -- a much stronger, alien force, that had come TWICE as invaders. Invaders who had shown no mercy and given no quarter. Who the PTB on Earth had every reason to expect would return, better armed than before.
Posted by Gabriel (Member # 5865) on :
Hi Rivka,
I understand what your saying, but I'm sure that all the political influence that most Jewish people had was indeed a threat to Hitler's power...Like you said before (I would do the Quote thing, but I don't know how) Hitler needed an enemy...Who better then his greatest threat and also the weakest people he could find...Again like you said nobody in Germany really liked the Jewish people in the first place...They were stealing there jobs, they were coming into there neighborhoods, and sending there children to there schools...I'm sure that the Buggers weren't doing all of that, but they were a threat to our power just like the Jewish people were a threat to Hitler's. Even though Ender was a child in form he was an adult in mind. He chose to kill the Buggers as Hitler chose to kill the Jewish people. They did it for most of the same reasons the number one being influence and again power.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
o_O
<--- speechless
Posted by X12 (Member # 5867) on :
Does it matter that he was the xenocide? Even when compaired to Hitler, he was, if my memory serves me, 12, at the time, twisted and fooled into the state that he was at by his teachers. He, at the time, thought it to be a game. So, even if he killed a race, he didn't know it. Have some respect for the dead, if you're to say such evil things! (ender still lingers!!!)
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I'm sorry Mega, but I will "trash you" in a matter of speaking. Your assesment of Ender seems to indicate a superficial reading of "Ender's Game" and perhaps less than superficial reading of the whole series. Beyond that, your argument of comparing Hitler to Ender in reaction to a "threat" is based on if the Jews really were a threat. You are, in essense, agreeing with Hitler's reasoning even if you don't believe they were the MAIN threat to Germany.
Again, the whole argument is based on Hilter who sought to commit Genocide and Ender who fictonally achieved Genocide. All other comparisons aren't even superficial. Perhapse the Myth of Hitler has overshadowed the History of Hitler to the point where details are ignored or forgotten. Just like our heroes have been "humanized" by exposing their weaknesses, perhaps its time to "humanize" Hitler by lessening his powerful symbolism of Evil like they have with Nepoleon, Xerxes, and Alexander the Great.
Posted by Gabriel (Member # 5865) on :
I knew this would happen ...I was merely stating the resembalances between the two and the more I think about it the more it makes sense...I'm sorry if I offended anybody especially OSC...I enjoy his writing alot, and I'm sure that he did not intend to make Ender look at all like Hitler, but unfortunitly he did.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
quote:I'm sorry Mega, but I will "trash you" in a matter of speaking.
::thwaps Occasional repeatedly with moron stick::
Perhaps you should reread the thread, paying close attention to who said what. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Except the Jews were NOT a threat to Hitler's power. They were one of the most hated groups in Germany, which is what made it easy for Hitler to make them a scapegoat. If they had been powerful, Hitler wouldn't have been able to get away with the Holocaust.
Posted by Gabriel (Member # 5865) on :
Ok Blacwolve oviously you weren't listening to my last post the Jewish people, however hated, were a very powerful influence. Most of them were in office or what not...They were an influence despite popular beleif that is why they were so hated. They were taking from the Germans and Hitlers only way to gain there power was to have the Germans turn against them once and for all. Thats why the Nazis were constructed because if you were smart you would know Hitler killed his first army (I can't recall the name) he developed because he wanted an army of the people...People he knew would cast the Jewish people out with no problems. They were powerful they did have influence within the Jewish community and there were more Jewish people then Germans. I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right...And your questioning yourself. Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
And besides, you know the holocaust never really happened . . .
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: I'm sure that all the political influence that most Jewish people had was indeed a threat to Hitler's power
*blinks* Sorry, who, specifically had all this power? Names, please. Because with very VERY few exceptions, most Jews in 1930s Europe had no power, let alone real political influence!
quote: Who better then his greatest threat
I said it before, and I'll say it again. Not only were the Jews clearly NOT a threat, there is evidence that Hitler never even mistakenly thought they were, but merely realized they'd make useful scapegoats.
quote: nobody in Germany really liked the Jewish people in the first place
FALSE! To start with, some Germans risked their lives to save Jews during the Nazi regime. Moreover, German anti-semitism was surely not created by Hitler, but it was not nearly as accepted, violent, or widespread before he inflamed it.
quote: They were stealing there jobs, they were coming into there neighborhoods, and sending there children to there schools
I'm sorry, but WTF?! The Jews of Germany were not new immigrants. They had been there for centuries. Many fought and DIED for Germany in WWI. For you to claim that German anti-semitism was in any way, shape, or form based on real threat to the Germans is incredibly offensive. Moreover, most Jews lived in GOVERNMENT-MANDATED ghettos. They were not allowed to live in any neighborhood they chose, attend universities (except in very small, carefully capped numbers). Their professional options were severely limited.
Do me a favor. Go learn some real history about Europe in the 1920s and 30s before you make any more claims that are so radically off base, please.
Back to Ender -- he was NOT fighting for power! He was fighting because that was all he had ever been trained to do.
Posted by Gabriel (Member # 5865) on :
Yes it did Mega. Why is there pictures, documentation, interveiws from Jewish people still alive from the Halaucost, interveiws from American soldiers that went over there and found the Jewish people in there concentration camps...Where did all that come from?
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Oh I know it happened. I was just trying to match the anti-semitism in your last post.
Posted by DEEP DESPAIR (Member # 4838) on :
"Ohhhhhhhhhhh . . . "
*Wails in heart-wrenching agony*
"What has happened to our youth? Do they really not comprehend what they read, what they write, what they say . . . Ohhhhhhhhh . . . Can they really be so unaware of history not even 60 decades old? Ohhhhhhhh . . . "
*Rattles chains of defeat and agony loudly, before snidely adding . . . *
"Do you HAVE to inflame the ignorance, Mega?" Posted by Tristionya (Member # 5869) on :
Hi everyone I am new to this site and I have only read one of OSC books Ender's Game. I had to read it my 10th grade English class and now that I am a Senior I am rereading it so that I can go on to the next books. I wasn't going to post anything at all here then I came across this absolutely horrid title. Now my first question was why in the Hell would anyone put Hitler and Ender in the same in the same sentence besides the ovious genocide. Then I start reading and theres actually a article on all of this. Then what surprises me more is there are people who support this theory (I won't say any names). This is absolutely proposterous bullshit!!! Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Well, no one ever said we were perfect.
In defense of many of our posters, I believe this is where they come to try out their ideas on why the world is the way it is, and why things happened the way they did.
Therefore, look on these times as moments of opportunity - you know, potentially, "teaching moments" -
or, continue to bang your head, whatever works for you.
By the way, welcome to Hatrack! Posted by Tristionya (Member # 5869) on :
Ok thanks so much for welcoming me and I think I will stop with the head banging. I really did come to this site to learn from all of you this title just really made me mad. Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
Has anyone here read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer?
Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
You must realize that the very exisitence of this horrible article by Radford is a devastating affront. Because she calls herself a scholar, this article has been reprinted and continues a life of it's own -- which I consider disgusting. You have to understand that even this discussion of it is quite distasteful at this house. I hope it runs it's course soon. You asked has anyone read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? Yes, Scott has. At the age of 9. One of the the most affecting and devastating experiences of his young life. Sometimes when people ask where did he get his deep compassion for humanity that is shown in many of his characters -- I point to the experience of reading that book. So, I've let this discussion go for a long time because I try not to be too heavy handed in the forum. But I ask you to be very careful and very respectful. Kristine
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I have not read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. Anne Franks's Diary, Elie Wiesel's "Night" and a few other experience-based books plus the history books through school, documentaries of the concentration camp remains, and old news articles are the basis of my limited knowledge.
Those things were horrifying to me as a child and teen - and they are still horrifying to me as an adult. Although, as an adult, I have developed a layer of veneer between the reading/seeing/hearing and feeling.
And frankly, I too was surprised by the comparison. It's invidious. I speculate as to what sorts of narcotics the person might have been on as they wrote the article . . .
But it certainly does spark all sorts of commentary, and does offer, I hope, a chance for the undereducated/misguided to brush up on their history and learn something about the horrid awfulness of rasicm, hatred, anti-semitism, etc.
And if the conversation must be, I would base my counter-essay on this point.
Hitler sought power. Ender did not.
It would be more useful to compare Peter to Hitler - a more advanced, self-controlled Hitler.
Kristine, I have great respect for you and your husband. I also respect the fact that you will allow divergent and "ouch" statements to be worked through and thought about - it makes me wish I could have sat through the dinner hour as a teen with you when I was struggling with all those opinions and thoughts that went 180 degrees opposite my parents - we might have come to some conclusions that were beneficial to everyone's growth rather than the shouting matches that so frequently ensued. Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote: Hitler sought power. Ender did not.
That's a great point.
Posted by Tristionya (Member # 5869) on :
I would just like to applaud Rivka on her smashing of Gabriel. I just would like to know which school or book he or she for that matter got there information from. It seems to me he/she, and if you would excuse my french, bull shitted most of the information. Not only did Gabriel insult OSC, as he/she says they didn't intend, but she also insulted us as his fans. I am glad someone decided to step to the plate to down size that little half wit and again I applaud you Rivka.
[ November 03, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Tristionya ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*wince* Well, I wasn't trying to "smash" anyone. I'm hoping Gabriel is simply uninformed. I just didn't feel that such blatant untruths about history should be left unchallenged.
But I'm glad you approved. Posted by Wetchik (Member # 3609) on :
quote: I would just like to applaud Rivka on her smashing of Gabriel.
I second that.
Yes rivka, we most definitely approve of your actions against Gabriel. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: there were more Jewish people then Germans. I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right
Gabriel. I welcomed you to the forum, but I do not support your absurd and naive positions regarding Hitler and Germany before and during WWII nor the comparisons of Hitler and Ender. In the ultimate analysis, Hitler was a complete sociopath and one of the greatest murderers in history (most of them German citizens), surpassed perhaps by Stalin in sheer numbers, but Russia had a larger population. Pol Pot killed 1/3 of the population of Cambodia, he's a contender too. Ender, on the other hand, was in training (he thought) to defend humanity from alien invaders, and tricked by his teachers to kill an entire species save for one queen, which he cared for as an act of contrition for his unwilling participation in Xenocide. Ender was moral; Hitler was an amoral monster.
Rivka covered most of the highlights of mistakes in your posts, but I thought this was worth pointing out. Most of the Jews killed were Germans. German Jews are a subset of the German people. Therefore your statement is ipso facto (on the face of it) trivially and totally wrong. Even granting a hypothetical non-citizenship to German Jews, Jews still never outnumbered non-Jews in Germany nor any other country but Israel post-1948. Also, Hitler also had many other civilians such as Gypsies, Poles, Russians, Czech, the insane, the retarded, etc etc. exterminated. In general, try to do your homework before posting controversial opinions, or you will be called on it. If you don't "have the time or patience to proove " your own points, you won't garner any respect but rather only embarrassed laughter.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Rivka,
Could you point me to some of the readings on Hitler’s not regarding the Jews a threat? I don’t doubt you at all; I’ve just never come across them.
I only ask because the last thing I read on the topic was an argument that he was a paranoid schizophrenic. I can’t for the life of me remember where I read this (some journal in a doctor’s office, I think). It was making the broader point that some people with paranoid delusions and highly charismatic personalities have the ability to use their delusions as manipulative tools.
Of course, if he was cynically just picking a convenient scapegoat, that goes against that theory.
I think switching the comparison around and comparing the victims of the two genocides is pretty much a total rebuttal of the article. Bugger – invaders who had killed 100 million people in their first attack and never made an attempt to communicate vs. a greatly outnumbered, powerless people with a history of being oppressed going back to the Philistines. Sheer ridiculousness.
Thanks,
Dagonee PS, I’d like to read the original article (and OSC’s refutation), but I can’t see contributing money to a journal that would print something like that to get the reprint.
Posted by Tristionya (Member # 5869) on :
I would just like to again applaud someone. Morbo when I read yours and Rivka's, which goes without saying, I got tingles down my spine. Everyone including Gabriel in a screwed up way has helped me understand OSC writings. I hope to do my Senior Project on him this year. I hope that I can read more of your posts to get a even better understanding of him. I would appreciate any help you would like to give me. As I said before I have only read one of his books and I am going on to the next ones. Again I thank you and applaud you. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Dragonee, I've read so much on the Holocaust (over the course of close to 20 years) that it's hard for me to trace sources. But here's one.
quote: Adolf Hitler, who was born in Braunau, Austria in 1889, had nothing but positive interactions with Jews in his childhood and youth, contrary to popular belief that tries to blame his actions on some early vendetta. In his youth, when he was a struggling artist, many of the people who supported him were Jews. Even more, some important figures in his life were Jewish -- like his family doctor or his commander in World War I who nominated him for the Iron Cross.
And yet, despite these positive experiences, Hitler had a deep-seated hatred of the Jews.
quote: Hitler also was not insane. He had his neuroses, but he was not crazy. In fact, he was a brilliant political manipulator. We can certainly say a lot of horrible things about him, but Hitler was one of the greatest public speakers in human history. If you understood German, you'd understand while watching tapes of his speeches why those blonde, blue-eyed Germans cheered so heartily a man whose very appearance contradicted everything he preached. There he was with black hair, as far away as he could come in appearance from the Aryans, the master race with which he wanted to populate the earth. And yet they gave him their loyalty and gave up their lives for him.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Senior project?
o_O
You don't go to Celebration High School, do you?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
This came out in the NY Times today. Relevant to the topic at hand -
"'I know I'm right' is a statement never used except to prove it's own inaccuracy."
Paraphrased-Taken from OSC in Ender's Shadow, except it was "I'm not stupid!" but you get the general idea.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Hey, Tristionya, welcome to the forum.
Any newcomer who thinks a post of mine is "spine-tingling" automatically qualifies for minion status. Line forms to the right, no pushing or cutting in line. Posted by The Wiggin (Member # 5020) on :
At first I didn't even plan to read this thread bit, I had to see how someone could say such a thing and heres my thouights.
I just have to point out one thing that I haven't really seen yet. Hitler killed but I don't recall hearing about any talkes with these "threats" to discuse changes, and i relize Ender doesn't in EG but at one point he talks with Mazer(or Graff) can't remember which about why they have to fight te buggers and he relizes it becuse he CAN'T talk to them and is told don't worry. If this this is confuseing i'm sorry i just tryed to post my thoughts as clearly as I could.
And another point has has been mad farly well. Hitler killed for power, Ender killed as a unknowing tool. And the only reson he killed the buggers is he was tired of training and thought it would make him seem unfit for command and as soon as he finds out it's real he falls into utter dispare and vows(not quit litterly but we all fell it I think and not tillt he first colony) to use his life to attempt to begin to right his terrble wrong. When did Hitler attemt to make ammends.
I am sorry for any incoherincy and mis spelling but the fact that someone could wright such an article(Which I haven't read) has my head spinning.
[ November 03, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: The Wiggin ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
My understanding of the article was that Radford uses some similarities between Ender and Hitler (Ender has a strong relationship with Valentine; Hitler was rumored to have a strong relationship with his sister) to provide the basis of her article.
When it comes down to it, there are a lot of similarities between me and Hitler-- we both have brown hair, we both have hands, we both have families, we've both only been married once, we both supposedly love kids. . .
Posted by Tristionya (Member # 5869) on :
Well thanks Morbo your really nice. Yes I do have a senior project and if I don't do it I fail and I won't beable to graduate so I thought I would do it on something I am passionate about. Then maybe I will get it completely done and not be a slacker. Which most of the time I am. Thanks again though Morbo and your post did send tingles down my spine your a very good writer you should think of it as a profession. Posted by Wetchik (Member # 3609) on :
quote: Hey, don't look at me, Wetchik- I didn't read the article. Just playin' devil's advocate.
Suntrunafs: I'm not blaming you for anything. My hostility is for the "author" of that terrible article. I understand what you mean. You're just trying to be objective. When you get idiots like this person writing stuff like this, objectivity flies right out the window.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Tris- your last post has an offensive word enmeshed in it. There is a whistle blowing feature, but I have recently (and painfully) been informed that it is polite to point out someone's faux pas to them before blowing the whistle on them. Anyway, we generally try to be more respectful on this forum. Especially this side.
Okay, what about Graff? I was driving on the Freeway the other day, thinking about whether the deaths of Stilson and Bonso will still be deaths in the movie, and thinking about Graff. I mean, he was the one who wielded Ender as a tool to accomplish the xenocide. Rackham was fairly actively involved as well. I think they were acting in what they believed was self defense. I don't think Hitler was acting in self defense because his other holocaust targets were "defective" people. Causing one to think about the Terri Schindler Sciavo case.
The great Irony of the offending essay is that it presupposes that the "formics" were Ramen.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Has anybody read Mien Kampf (Hitler's book)? I am going to read that (English translation...I'm not German) as soon as I catch up with my list (I still have to finish 'Fear Nothing,' and read Catch-22 and Treason...).
Anyway, from what I've heard, in that book, Hitler seems to portray the Jews as animals - to him the holocaust was just hunting for sport. Though I'm apalled by this sport, I wouldn't consider advocates of this evil. I've also heard, though don't know if it's true, that he was a schizophrenic. If it is true, I've had enough schizophrenic friends and contacts that I could understand Hitler's actions. Not approve; understand.
Also, though I have NO idea where Gabriel came up with that stuff, it didn't sound like he was being anti-simetic (unless, of course, he made it up and had no real source, other than himself). It sounded, rather, like he was someone unacquainted with America, who repeated an article he saw on the cover of a tabloid. Liars need bashings; the ill-informed don't. Not that rivka was bashing, but...why would you congratulate her (or him? sorry, I haven't got the sex of everybody down yet) for soemthing she didn't do?
Posted by Wetchik (Member # 3609) on :
quote: Tris- your last post has an offensive word enmeshed in it. There is a whistle blowing feature, but I have recently (and painfully) been informed that it is polite to point out someone's faux pas to them before blowing the whistle on them. Anyway, we generally try to be more respectful on this forum. Especially this side.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm a she, for the record.
There is quite a bit of evidence that Mein Kampf was not a true expression of Hitler's beliefs, but an excuse for them. He knew Jews personally -- served under a Jewish commander in WWI, his childhood doctor was a Jew -- viewing Jews as animals was certainly not evidenced in his earlier life. Neither was schizophrenia.
Failing to see Jews as human would hardly be a defense of his actions, in any case. It would be, IMO, far more evil. Hitler was a psychopath, and as close to evil as any human can come.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote: There is quite a bit of evidence that Mein Kampf was not a true expression of Hitler's beliefs, but an excuse for them. He knew Jews personally -- served under a Jewish commander in WWI, his childhood doctor was a Jew -- viewing Jews as animals was certainly not evidenced in his earlier life. Neither was schizophrenia.
Wow...my brain is so Orson-Scott-Card-ified that I now see a REAL easy connection between Hitler and Achilles (the whole "you saw me in a state of despair, and, thus, you will die").
I wonder if OSC would ever write a book about Hitler...he seems to have a good perception of human nature - both evil and good. And all his books show the point of view of practically all involved characters.
I doubt he would, though, as it would probably just revive this woman's ridiculous accusation.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Wetchik, I think she is actually referring to her post on the previous page.
Posted by Grandma Edie (Member # 5771) on :
Yes, yes, Da_Goat, you have it right. It is ACHILLES that is developed from Hitler as the prototype, NOT Ender. (And never, for one moment, is any sane reader tempted to be sympathetic with the aims and methods of Achilles.)
I suspect the crazy Radford allegations may have tempted Card to say, "If I WAS going to make a character inspired by Hitler, THIS is how I would do it," and he created Achilles.
So, you are reading Mein Kampf? Good. "Know your enemy." Try Karl Marx's CAPITAL (also available in translation) also. When I read it, THEN I knew why I was not a Communist or even a Socialist.
The people may be dead, the regimes may be over- thrown, but the ideas are not dead at all. We must learn to recognize them.
Way to go, Da_Goat!
Posted by Prevail (Member # 5878) on :
all very good points and opinions expressed. some very well worded as well as being very foolish. Lets just put it simply, Ender was nothing like Hitler. Card did not intend that and made it apparent himself. Whoever wrote the article waisted their time comparing a sci fi, futuristic hero to a historical tyrant. There really is no point in drawing parallels.
[ November 05, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Prevail ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:So, you are reading Mein Kampf? Good. "Know your enemy." Try Karl Marx's CAPITAL (also available in translation) also. When I read it, THEN I knew why I was not a Communist or even a Socialist.
The people may be dead, the regimes may be over- thrown, but the ideas are not dead at all. We must learn to recognize them.
I've got to admit, I'm mystified by this comparison. I've read Captial too and I'm really curious what parts of it you think rank up there with Hitler?
I thought that the book contained some very interesting and accurate things and some very innaccurate or strange things. However, I never had a feeling of EVIL coming from it. Especially in regards to the times in which he was writing in, Marx, in Capital, seems to be mostly pushing against evil things rather than the opposite. And that's in the proportionately few times that he is adovcating specific systems rather than describing how he thinks economic systems in general work.
However, I'm always interested in other perspectives. Could you tell me what it was that so horrified you about this book?
[ November 05, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Tristionya (Member # 5869) on :
I'm really sorry about my profanity. I know I probably shouldn't use it but, I told you to excuse it. At any rate it was wrong and I am sorry. I won't use any more curse words. -Tristionya
Posted by Grandma Edie (Member # 5771) on :
Yes, indeed, Mr. Squicky, Marx's CAPITOL is a completely different piece of goods from MIEN KAMPF. It is not the wildness of a mind going insane with obssession.
It is a coolly imagined social structure that, in its way, simply violates almost every principle that the loosely defined "Western Civilization" is built on.
1. Religious faith is condemned. 2. The family is denigrated. 3. Gradual reform of abuses of the working class is even worse than being an abuser in the first place, because gradual reformers delay the necessary revolution. I cannot give you the exact reference, but there is a place where Marx says the "middle class socialist" (reformer) is even worse than a factory owner. [Granted, that when Lenin defended socialism brought about by violent means, he yanked Marx's quotes out of context; but even in context they are more on the side of violence than not.]
Hitler (and fascists generally) are like madmen spraying bullets at random or swinging sledge-hammers. Marxists/Leninists are careful, well-spoken people who are carefully poisoning the family food.
And when we look, not at the roots, but the fruits, what do we see? Under Hitler, millions of men, women, and children are gassed to death. Under Stalin (Marxist/Leninist) men, women and children quietly die of starvation under the "agricultural reforms."
Yes, it is a very different KIND of evil. But how much difference does it make to the victim?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Edie, I think you may be taking about a different book, perhaps The Communist Manifesto. As far as I can remember, Capital contains none of the positions that you attribute to it.
As far as judging a book by it's fruits, I'd no more feel justified condemning Capital because of Stalin's excesses than I would condemning the Bible based on the various atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christ over the centuries or condemning the Declaration of Idenpendence and U.S. Constitution because of the U.S. attempted genocide of Native Americans.
[ November 05, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Hi G-ma Edie and Mr. Squicky -
I must confess that I have not read the Manifesto nor do I know much about economics beyond my required courses (Econ 101 and History of Econ),
BUT
I must say that the point of not judging a written work by the actions of adherents strikes a chord with me. On the one hand, I agree, and on the other there is a part of me saying "wait a minute! these are the folks that are putting into practice the ideas of the author/theorist/philosopher."
I guess it's kind of like the chicken and egg question.
Good food for thought, though.
*Wanders off muching pensively*
Posted by X12 (Member # 5867) on :
May i ask why Ender is being compaired to an egotistical dead tyrant dictator who killed millions of jews because he thought he was in the process of creating a perfect race? What lunitic would ever come up with this idea?! I am outraged at even the thought!!! So what if he nearly destroyed an entire race! I have two points: a) he, at the time, was completely unaware that he was killing others! he thought it was a game! He was fatiqued and nearly to a point of mental insanity and the fact still stands that he DID NOT know!!! Ignorance? Yes. But, he DID NOT know! b) he was also the only being that could revive the buggars! My personal reation was that he actually introduced the buggars to the piggies and helped two different species!!! He even made a friend out of the queen and many of the piggies!!! He was not evil!!!
{Edit: if you read carefully above, I stated 'What lunitic would ever come up with this idea?!' I appologize if anyone took this as a personal attack or some garbage like that. I ment a LUNITIC, and not, I hope, and Hatracker's. Unless of course you are a lunitic who thinks Ender is Hitler's clone, then it is directed towards you.}
[ November 11, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: X12 ]
Posted by Grandma Edie (Member # 5771) on :
X12, you have it, right on.
Don't ask US why we are making such a crazy comparison of Ender and Hitler. Most of us are not, or coming anywhere near to it.
It is the nutty reviewer, Elaine Radford who did that. Posted by Chandani (Member # 5879) on :
Makes me wonder what kind of creepy mindset would actually approach EG like that in the first place...since what you find in the world (or a book, event, whatever) often says less about the world, book, etc. than it does about you. You find what you look for. Anyone looking for evil in the work of OSC is clearly bring it to the table themselves.
Posted by Chandani (Member # 5879) on :
ouch...bring = bringing
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Shan, I'm not trying to defend The Communist Manifesto or anything. I'm certainly not a Marxist. I am saying that Capital is a book of economic criticism that can stand quite separate from the social reforms that it's author also pushed. There are ideas in there that are very important and shoud not be dismissed because of prejudice or because of what other people made of them. It is an important book, but one whose importance will be missed if you approach it with only hostility and defensiveness. That's pretty much all.
----
As to the comparison of Ender to Hitler, of course on it's merits it's absurd. But that's the thing. I feel that people are reacting to it inappropriately. It's not something to get worked up about. That confers on it an importance that it doesn't deserve. The author would most likely see parallels between any figure responsible for genocide, be it by something as innocent as tripping over a power cord, and Hitler. This deserves laughter and pity, but is not to be taken seriously enough to get upset about.
Although, if I squint my eyes just right and drink 2 3/4 glasses of tequila, I can see where this idea sort of came from. In Speaker for the Dead, Ender Wiggin - the historical figure, not the actual character - is treated as kind of a Hitler figure, in that he is regarded as a monstrous embodiement of evil. I'm sure that in a debate in that theoretical world, it would be common to Godwin your opponent by comparing him to Ender.
quote:"But the Speaker for the Dead, the one who wrote this book, he's the wisest man who lived in the age of flight among the stars. While Ender was a murderer, he killed a whole race of people, a beautiful race of ramen who could have taught us everything-" "Both human, though," whispered the Speaker. Human was near them now, and he spoke a couplet from the Hegemon: "Sickness and healing are in every heart. Death and deliverance are in every hand."
This encapsulates one of the main point of the book, that all human beings are just that, human beings. It is a common human behavior to make a monster out of your opponent, to make them varlese, and thus deny any connection with them. Speaker for the Dead advances the idea that this is not justified. It says that no person is an animal uncapable of being understood, even if they are a Hitler or a Saddam Hussien or a Karl Marx. I could see how some people, who are strongly invested in believing in the absolute evil of some others, would see this as a de facto defense of those others.
Obviously I don't agree. Hitler doesn't have to be a monster, but it is not in defense of him that I say that he was instead a man who did very monstrous things.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Squicky
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
Kristine, you hit upon my point exactly. I asked if anyone had read it because I had the same experience reading it that Scott did (although I was in college. How a 9 year-old...? All the more reason for to OSC). IMO, people making comments about Hitler need to read that book if they want their comments to carry any weight. I know, I know, it's not the only book out there on the topic, but I think it's the best.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Very well said, MrSquicky.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Did I wander into the Twilight Zone or something? Are people so damned ignorant that they're actually finding reasonable comparisons between Adolf Hitler and Ender Wiggin?
Having read Ender's Game many times as well as studying WWII and Hitler in particular, I have to wonder how anyone who has even a cursory knowledge of both could think such a parallel exists. There is only one way in which Ender and Adolf are alike, and it's a stretch at that. Ender wiped out an entire species, and Adolf tried to wipe out an entire race in Europe.
Now for the ways in which they weren't alike. One, Hitler intentionally tried to murder the entire Jewish race in Europe. Ender did not have any such intent with regards to the Formics. Two, Hitler was his own master and made the decision to attempt to wipe out the Jews in Europe himself. Ender did not-he was tricked into it by his military and political superiors. If one has actually read Ender's Game, then they'll remember the part where Ender annihilated the Formic homeworld because he was quitting the game. He did it specifically because he thought his superiors would find such an action, even in a simulation, unconscionable and thus let him finally quit. Three, the Jews in Europe were no threat to Hitler, and Hitler knew it. They were a small minority almost universally despised throughout Europe at the time. Hitler's own words prove that he was smart enough to know they were no real threat. The Formics, however, were a real threat, in fact one that we couldn't communicate with. They were a numerous, technologically advanced, highly capable society that undeniably posed a threat to humanity.
Gabriel, it's obvious that you are at best poorly informed about both Adolf Hitler and Ender's Game. Your conclusions are based on entirely incorrect information, and you're coming very close to excusing the Holocaust as well as justifying Hitler's pogroms and hatred of the Jews.
quote:He wiped out an entire race of Alien life forms he thought the world was threatened by.
He did not "think" the Formics were a threat, he knew it. If memory serves, they attacked Earth and our solar system on two seperate occassions, razing China among other regions of the planet.
quote:Just like Hitler tryed to wipe out the Jewish people in Germany because he thought they were a threat to him.
He tried to wipe out the Jews in more than just Germany, and if you'll do a little real research on Adolf Hitler, you'll quickly find that he simply used the Jews as a rallying point. They were no threat to him and he knew it.
quote:but I'm sure that all the political influence that most Jewish people had was indeed a threat to Hitler's power
The Jews did not have much political influence in Germany or anywhere in Europe.
quote:Who better then his greatest threat and also the weakest people he could find
Curious. Sometimes the Jews were Hitler's greatest threat, other times they were his weakest enemy. Make up your mind.
quote:Again like you said nobody in Germany really liked the Jewish people in the first place...They were stealing there jobs, they were coming into there neighborhoods, and sending there children to there schools
And yet, this relatively tiny minority was Hitler's "greatest threat"? And what's all this BS about stealing jobs, coming into their neighborhoods, etc.? Fool, the Jews were already there. They had been in Europe for centuries.
quote:but they were a threat to our power just like the Jewish people were a threat to Hitler's.
Have you even read Ender's Game? Remember how the Formics were waging and winning a war of extermination against humanity? Maybe your Cliff's Notes version of Ender's Game skipped that part.
quote:He chose to kill the Buggers as Hitler chose to kill the Jewish people. They did it for most of the same reasons the number one being influence and again power.
Ender did not choose to annihilate the Formics, he was tricked into it. The reasons for annihilating the Formics all are founded on the certainty that the Formics were doing the same thing to humanity.
OSC did not make Ender similar to Hitler. To reach that conclusion, you've had to twist both history and the book, changing or outright ignoring both historical writing (Hitler's), and ignoring just about the entire end of Ender's Game.
quote:Ok Blacwolve oviously you weren't listening to my last post the Jewish people, however hated, were a very powerful influence. Most of them were in office or what not...They were an influence despite popular beleif that is why they were so hated. They were taking from the Germans and Hitlers only way to gain there power was to have the Germans turn against them once and for all. Thats why the Nazis were constructed because if you were smart you would know Hitler killed his first army (I can't recall the name) he developed because he wanted an army of the people...People he knew would cast the Jewish people out with no problems. They were powerful they did have influence within the Jewish community and there were more Jewish people then Germans. I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right...And your questioning yourself.
What the hell are you talking about? There were more Jewish people than Germans in Germany?
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Tisk tisk, Jeff. You're suppressing her right to free speech!
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I'm sure Gabriel will prepare a mighty rebuttal to Rakeesh.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I should tread more carefully. The lawyer might sue! Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It's unfortunate that we seem to have run S. Watson off.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Noeman, I don't think so. The responses were actually very restrained for over 5 days, considering it was such a contraverisial topic on a forum full of OSC fans. S.Watson chose only to post once, for his or her's own reasons.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
I don't think we ran S. Watson off. I think S. Watson just posted to get information, and had no intention of joining the forum.
I am just about the only person who responded directly to S. Watson, so I guess I'm a bit touchy on the thought that "we" might have run this person off, especially in light of suntranaf's accusations that I am a nasty blankety-blank who suppresses people's rights to free speech. I believe my reply was very polite and reasonable and understanding, and I even went through the effort of posting a link to OSC's response to Radford's article. I feel that my response was entirely appropriate, and I don't intend to apologize for it.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I agree that S. Watson was likely just looking for info and never intended to join a long term discussion.
And MegaIcky is a kind, courteous poster who contributes wonderful things to all discussions he is involved in. If he's feeling at all defensive about this or the other thread, he shouldn't. (Got that, Ic?)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ditto on what dkw said! Ic didn't run anyone off. at the very notion.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Thanks guys!
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
Can anyone tell me what OSC and Radford each said?
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
You'll find a link to OSC's response on Hatrack in the second reply to the original post.
Posted by Black Mage (Member # 5800) on :
I saw that but it's not really that helpful beyond what was inferred in the original post.
Posted by X12 (Member # 5867) on :
I agree with you, Black Mage. It didn't help me as much as I hoped it would, but if you know OSC's personallity enough (through his published works and of course Hatrack) you should know what lines OSC thinks along, and therefor assume... or is it just me?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Icarus
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, hey, Icarus, I wasn't meaning you in particular (or at all). I didn't think there was anything wrong with your reply. Actually, I agree that S. Watson was probably just looking for information, but I had assumed that the reason he hadn't responded at all was because he felt like he'd touched a nerve.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"especially in light of suntranaf's accusations that I am a nasty blankety-blank who suppresses people's rights to free speech."
If you'd read my posts just a little more carefully I think you could see that I didn't mean anything all that bad- though perhaps I was excessively vicious, I have a tendency to do that from time to time, but I'm "calling em as I see em". As far as I know there are worse insults than blankety blank, and worse crimes than suppresing free speech by accident. It's just that when a whole bunch of people do it at the same time it drives me nuts. Give peace a chance .
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*boggles at the irony*
quote: though perhaps I was excessively vicious, I have a tendency to do that from time to time
quote: Give peace a chance .
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
Maybe I should change my screen name to Doctor Jekel and Mr. Hide?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
So here is the thread that's creating all the free speech contraversy!
I have to say that even based on the very little I know about OSC, the idea that his intention for Ender's Game was to justify Hitler is absurd. It's a fine example of the way academia likes to assign motivations to authors.
However, correct intepretations of a novel aren't limited to those that the author intends to include, and I think the Ender-Hitler comparison is a very interesting one.
The key similarity is that both committed acts of genocide and were eventually condemned and loathed for it. We see Hitler in the same way that the people of the future saw Ender. Thus when Ender's Game suggests Ender was a good person despite his crimes, despite how his world eventually came to see him, it raises questions about how accurate our view of Hitler was. It teaches an important lesson: the goodness of a person is not determined by the outcome of his actions. Ender did a horrible thing, yet he was still good. Why? Intentions. That's the message here - it is intentions that should determine our judgement of a person's character. We see Hitler as a villain because he did not "accidently" do bad things. His intentions were bad, unlike Ender.
Or were they? After all the people thought Ender had bad intentions when he destroyed the buggers too. They didn't know the real him though - they were mistaken. Could we be similarly mistaken about Hitler and his crimes? Many will be tempted to say no, but if we are being fair we must concede yes. We didn't know him either. We were not fortunate enough to get a view inside his mind to see how his thoughts progressed. Thus we do not know how the world looked to him, through the prism of his mind. Ender did monsterous things when necessary - perhaps Hitler was simply doing the same.
Then again, Ender did not realize he was doing the most monsterous thing of all. If he had, would he have still done it in the end? (An interesting issue by itself.)
I think it's an excellent issue to pose to English classes.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
We most certainly DO have a window inside Hitler's mind. His early writings and letters, his actions, show us a man who was weak and cowardly, who consistently blamed the failures in his life on others.
He simply got better at choosing vulnerable targets.
Don't sanitize Hitler's evil.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
That's a view of his reasoning, but it doesn't really tell you what it would be like to think like him. It's one thing to know someone is weak and cowardly, and another thing to understand what it is like to be weak and cowardly. Novels tend to give us a good notion of the latter, but I don't think you can gleam it very well from normal writings (maybe some autobiographies.)
That would be like claiming to understand me just based on my posts on the forum.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I didn't claim to understand Hitler -- I don't know that I want to. You said we lacked a "window into his mind," and I don't believe that to be true.
Similarly, while I don't believe that I understand you based on your posts, surely you cannot deny that they give me a window into your thoughts, feelings, etc.?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Well, yes to an extent. But to understand a person's intentions you need to understand them, not just see how their thoughts and emotions progress.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
In order to determine whether their actions are evil or not? I disagree.
I believe we have sufficient evidence to judge Hitler's evil intentions, as well as his evil actions.
Posted by Hazen (Member # 161) on :
A rational and good person could look at the situation in Ender's time, going by the amount of knowledge they had, and conclude that the Buggers needed to be stopped at any cost. To say the same thing about Hitler's time time and the Jews, one must either be irrational or evil. I think Card's invention (he did invent them, right), of the concepts of "raman" and "varelse" are usefull here. The Jews A) had not done Hitler any wrong, and B) were very clearly raman, whereas the Formics had already hurt the humans, and (as far as they could tell) were varelse. So Ender and Graff were justified, Hitler wasn't.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
The best window we ever got into Hitler's mind was the one he made with a Luger at the end of the war.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
I really like your post Hazen, if only because your views on the matter seem so paralell to my own. Whether OSC actually invented 'Raman' and 'Varelse' I don't know, and I'd really like to. My best guess is probably not, but perhaps he did nearly invent or re-invent the concept?
"After all the people thought Ender had bad intentions when he destroyed the buggers too. They didn't know the real him though - they were mistaken. Could we be similarly mistaken about Hitler and his crimes? Many will be tempted to say no, but if we are being fair we must concede yes. We didn't know him either. We were not fortunate enough to get a view inside his mind to see how his thoughts progressed."
Admitedly it's hard to directly argue with your logic, Tresopax; after all, if a man's alone in a room with two buttons, and he presses the one that destroys the world thinking that it's the one that will save the world, then surely you cannot in good conscience blame him and call him evil, and there's not enough information definitively call him stupid much less crazy.
That being said, one key point I think you may be missing is that neither people nor their histories are so naive as they are in Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead. Remember that even in Ender's game, Ender was a hero before he was vilanized, and in real life lies seldom live forever. Therefore, though I never knew Hitler or Ender, I can tell you that it is extremely likely that if I was a human I would have sided fully with Ender in the Bugger war, and I can tell you beyond any reasonable doubt, that, were I a German in World War II, I would have been against Hitler 100%.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Check the ID on the member who started this thread. If there's something dumber than feeding a troll, it's feeding a ghost.
[ December 17, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:A rational and good person could look at the situation in Ender's time, going by the amount of knowledge they had, and conclude that the Buggers needed to be stopped at any cost. To say the same thing about Hitler's time time and the Jews, one must either be irrational or evil.
So if you do something wrong thinking it's right, you are good if it was a reasonable mistake, but evil if normal rational people wouldn't have made the mistake? Or are you saying everyone is rational, and thus nobody would make such an irrational mistake as to think killing the Jews is good, and thus Hitler must've been evil?
quote:Therefore, though I never knew Hitler or Ender, I can tell you that it is extremely likely that if I was a human I would have sided fully with Ender in the Bugger war, and I can tell you beyond any reasonable doubt, that, were I a German in World War II, I would have been against Hitler 100%.
That's easily said, but the fact remains that there were many many Germans who supported Hitler, and they probably weren't that different from you or me. How can you be sure beyond a reasonable doubt?
quote:Check the ID on the member who started this thread. If there's something dumber than feeding a troll, it's feeding a ghost.
Not if you're feeding an interesting thread.
And if you're suggesting the author of this thread was a troll, I don't think they did anything bad to merit that claim.
[ December 20, 2003, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"That's easily said, but the fact remains that there were many many Germans who supported Hitler, and they probably weren't that different from you or me. How can you be sure beyond a reasonable doubt?"
It is easily said, but I'd say that's Ok, since it's true . I'd be willing to bet that few of the Germans who supported Hitler were true idealists, and many were definitely lured with his promise of power- I myself would not be lured. There were also many Germans against Hitler, and not all of them were cowed- perhaps many people would be so, but I am not one of them. Thus I do not speak for anyone else, but I am sure of this for myself beyond a reasonable doubt, though I do not deny that extraordinary circumstances as were not the norm could theoretically possibly change things, but I still doubt that I would stay long decieved. I am sure, however, that many who actually fought on the German side in WWII did so not for Hitler but for their country, and it is not the same. Like Robert E. Lee and the confederacy.
Anyway, to look at Ender's time, there were no "Schindler"s, no Bugger sympathizers; why would there be? One does not sympathize with death.
Posted by Hazen (Member # 161) on :
Let me explain myself some more. I believe that there is some margin of error when it comes to our knowing the truth, in other words, there are some possibilities that are difficult enough to distiguish that a person can genuinely look at the evidence available to them, and arrive at a different conclusion. Hitler's beliefs about the Jews were beyond that margin of error. Believing what he taught about them would be along the lines of someone believing that the earth is flat, with today's evidence presented to them. Thus, whether he believed what he taught or not, had he actually looked at a little bit of evidence he would have found it going against him. If he was genuinely deluded be his ideology, he was evil for not examining it more closely before acting on it. I would compare it to a (hypothetical) man who heard a commotion in his neighbor's backyard, decided it was aliens coming to plan the world domination with that neighbor, and went over and shot the neighbor without first glancing over the fence to see if his theory was true. Clearly, even if he had convinced himself that his wild theory was true, he at least should have tried to verify it. The same goes for Hitler; even if he did believe his paranoid fantasies, he is still culpable for ignoring all the evidence against it.
Now, I would regard Graff and Ender differently. Looking at what they knew at the time, fearing the Buggers was perfectly rational. It was wrong, but still rational. What is more, as far as they knew they couldn't even communicate with them to negotiate. Thus, while their course was not the only course, it was not an evil one.
On a side note, I have often wondered about a what Mazer said to Ender when Ender asked him about whether the MD device would work on a planet. He said "Ender, the buggers never deliberately attacked a civilian population in either invasion. You decide whether it would be wise to adopt a strategy that would invite reprisals." I suspect he was covering for himself here, trying to avoid the blame for whatever happened. Did anyone else get that from the passage?
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I knew this would happen ![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
I'm sure if I could find the population count of Germany before the Holocaust I could prove it, however I do not have the time or patience to proove myself to you right now I know I'm right...And your questioning yourself. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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I would just like to applaud Rivka on her smashing of Gabriel. I just would like to know which school or book he or she for that matter got there information from. It seems to me he/she, and if you would excuse my french, bull shitted most of the information. Not only did Gabriel insult OSC, as he/she says they didn't intend, but she also insulted us as his fans. I am glad someone decided to step to the plate to down size that little half wit and again I applaud you Rivka. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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I'm really sorry about my profanity. I know I probably shouldn't use it but, I told you to excuse it. At any rate it was wrong and I am sorry. I won't use any more curse words.