Did anyone else get the feeling that the people on Wang Mu's planet in Xenocide could have had anton's key turned in their genes? Of course, instead of the Rapid growth and shortened life span (Bean),they have their "rituals" that they must perform.
[ June 23, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Little_Doctor ]
Posted by julian (Member # 6540) on :
I don't see why. The only common element is that in both cases a genetic manipulation was performed but the results are completely unrelated. I'm afraid that I don't get the idea.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Well, Bean became remarkably brilliant with Aton's Key turned. If i remember correctly, the select people on Wang Mu's planet that had to perform the rituals were very smart. The connection was that Anton's Key might have been used in a larger experiment on these people, but with a different side effect. We wouldn't want to have a ton of people with the "Bean" side-effect.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Little_Doctor,
That's an interesting idea, but I think the nature of the genetic changes leading to the behaviors explored in the two narratives is different. In one case, you have natural variation strongly tied to an ethnic group. In the other, you have deliberate manipulation of an individual's genetic makeup. So, I don't think "Anton's Key" is responsible for the ritualistic behaviors explored in the characters of Xenocide.
fallow
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
But do we know those changes were in fact natural variation? I dont recall it saying anywhere. Yes bean's genes were manipulated purposly, but they also said that if he had kids Anton's Key would be turned in them also. On the other hand Wnag Mu's people could have been completely nuts. Either way, I find it a very strange coincidence.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
To add on to that, my point was that if bean and petra do have children with anton's key turned. It could be passed form geneeration to generation and eventually people would accept it as natural. Could it be that this is what happened with an ancestor of Wnag Mu's people?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
what is the extrapolation of your theory? that the colonial communities of different planets in Ender's extended timeframe are descendants of Bean, having inherited his genetic abnormalities?
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
hehe. sorry, i dont know what extrapolation is. I'm only in 9th grade. It's just not a word that i hear too often.
I didnt write my lasst post very clearly. I used bean as an example that The effects of Anton's Key could be passed down through the generations. If there was another experimant done of Anton's Key, it seems very possible to me that the subject(s) could have been ancestors of Wang Mu's people.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
tsk, tsk, fallow - what's the point of advanced degrees if you don't articulate your thoughts in clear fashion for ALL to understand . . . *shakes head sadly* Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
well, another way of using extrapolation so you can understand it is (and I don't mean this to be rude) "what's your point?"
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Thanks, I now know what extrapolation is, and im proud of it. lol
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Little_Doctor: Come on! Dictionary. Ever hear of it?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
"oh, bravo! fallow - good work!"
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
Bean = Hitler
Path = Bush
[ June 24, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: ArCHeR ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
How would Bean and Petra create a world of Chinese people?
I do agree that it's likely the people of Path are victim to the same doodling as Bean was, with a variation in the "sacrifice" made. Turn on one key, turn off another.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
That was my point exaclty. I only used bean's imaginary children to show that it is possible to carry it through generations. I didn't mean that bean is actually the ancestor of the people on Path.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It would be extremely easy for Bean and Petra to be the parents of a Chinese people. They have a daughter, who has a passel of kids with a Chinese man. Each one of them marries a Chinese. Each one of their kids does the same. GOTO 30
Posted by julian (Member # 6540) on :
Well, I suppose Bean is not going to be like Daneel Olivaw, that was the responsable of all that happened in the Foundation's world after Giskard's death.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
I don't think you guys got what I was saying (probably because I named the wrong planet). You don't have to turn Anton's key all the way. You can turn it a little bit. I'm sure the people of Path are about westerner height, maybe a touch taller...
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Or maybe, the side efffect of rapid growth isn't even present in them. Instead of that, they have to prform their rituals.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
I found an other thread from february that dicussed the same topic, for anyone who's interested.
[ June 25, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Little_Doctor ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Archer, genes are either on or off -- and Anton's Key was a very specific change in certain very specific genes. "Turning it partway" would almost certainly produce a non-viable fetus, or at least an individual with a lifespan even shorter than Bean's, and few of the advantages.
However, there are MANY genes that affect intelligence. So it would certainly be possible to have another genetic alteration that produced increased intelligence -- like the one on Path.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
The rituals can't be the other key. It's just a completely different thing. If it wasn't, Wang Mu would either be stupid, or perform rituals.
You can change the genes a little bit. Whoever told you otherwise is lying. That's why there aren't just either 6ft5 people or 5ft4 people. There are varrying heights, varying metabolic rates, and varying intellegences. Bean's growth was inhanced a lot, maybe Pathites(?) have it inhanced a little...
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
I rememeber that the people on path that were smart also had to perform rituals, not one or the other. Wang Mu was a normal human being. Does it ever specify that rapid uncontrolled growth must be the only side effect of anton's key? I always understood that when antons key is turned, another gene must alos be "turned on" along with the superior knowledge. Who's to say that the other gene turned in the people of path wasn't a genen that gave them the need to perform these rituals?
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
You didn't read all the books, did you? Wang Mu was NOT normal. She was a Godspoken minus the rituals. They are not interdependant characteristics. And you totally missunderstood the biblical metaphors too, appearently because yes, inhanced intellegence and short life ARE interdependant. You can eat of the tree of life and live forever, or eat of the tree of knowlege and die.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Archer, you are correct, but you don't have to be mean about it. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Archer, each gene is either has only two (or occasionally, 3 or 4) possibilities. Height is not determined by only one gene. Neither is human eye color or hair color or skin color.
And neither is human intelligence. Lucky for you.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
It's like 4-square. Put your (say getting a boy/girl question) XX on the top two and the XY on the bottom two and then (just like on the multiplication tables) use your finger to go over one and up one and put that combination in the first box . . . it'd be XX. So'd the second one on the top row. Bottom row, two XYs. (Right, rivka?) I'm trying to do this mentally without benefit of first cup of coffee. My head now aches and I am going to get me a strong black cuppa . . .
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
I dont remember ... was Anton's Key inherited from Bean's parents, or was it a genetic mutation?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yep, Shan. It's called a Punnett square. But they are most useful for looking at one gene at a time.
It gets to be a real pain to fill out when you have multiple genes being looked at simultaneously -- even a 4x4 grid can be somewhat complex (certainly if you listen to my students gripe about 'em ). And if you wanted to look at 4 different genes on different chromosomes, you would need a grid that was (*tries to do quick calculation*) um, big. Quite big.
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
The whole basis of the idea behind Bean is that the only way have superior knowlege is to have growth rate increased. The faster you grow, the smarter you are. That's the deal. That's what the books say. Anyone with a high-school education can explain the punnet square, and can also tell you multiple genes can affect one atribute, or vice versa. But I'm not talking about individual genes, now am I?
I wasn't trying to be mean about it. It's just that these are major points in the books, and if you didn't get them, you couldn't have gotten what was happening...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: The whole basis of the idea behind Bean is that the only way have superior knowledge is to have growth rate increased. The faster you grow, the smarter you are.
I disagree. The only way to have THAT MUCH greater intelligence -- which necessitated brain growth that the normal human cranium would not allow for -- was to have increased overall physical growth.
That doesn't imply that all increased intelligence must be that way. It doesn't even necessarily mean that Anton was right, and there isn't any other way to get to Bean's level of intelligence without the overall growth.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
That's what ive been trying to say the whole time rivka. Woohoo! I'm just not very good at explaining things scientifically, even if i am wrong. Oh and Archer, i did read all the books, i just didnt pick up on the biblical references. Good call.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
64 squares?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
No, it can be a lot more. With genes that assort independently (which is generally true if they are on different chromosomes), you need a different column/row for each possible combination from each parent. With four genes, each having two choices, that's 2x2x2x2. So you actually can end up with a grid that's 16x16, if each of the four has two choices from both parents.
Which is why Punnett squares are mostly useful for looking at one or two genes at a time. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
The mind boggles . . . .
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yep. Might make a good-sized Boggle board, though. Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
rivka,
sorry to be a bit of a know-it-all, but genes aren't strictly on and off. in some cases, like genes important for embryonic development or tissue differentiation only, this binary idealization is somewhat accurate. for most genes, though, there's a sort of continuous varying level of expression depending on the particular cell's activities, growth cycle, and fate.
fallow
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Granted. But if we're talking about purely genetic influence on intelligence, one would have to discount those affects, neh?
Anyway, wouldn't that tend to be primarily an issue of embryonic/early childhood development in most individuals? And what makes Bean unique is that it's NOT in his case?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
quote:Granted. But if we're talking about purely genetic influence on intelligence, one would have to discount those affects, neh?
discount what?
quote:Anyway, wouldn't that tend to be primarily an issue of embryonic/early childhood development in most individuals? And what makes Bean unique is that it's NOT in his case?
I don't think Bean is a good case to cite on this subject. Endearing or as abhorrent (binary) as he may be.
fallow
Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
But my whole point is that the people of Path might just be a lesser form of Bean. IE turning Anton's key a little.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
who the bloody hell is Anton, anyhow?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
fallow, he might not be a good example, but he is THE example that was being discussed. As for who Anton is -- go read the books again.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
If I may -
Genetic manipulation occurs naturally and under the hand of man. Since we're talking about man-made manipulations, let's talk degrees. Degrees of change are indeed possible in making changes, especially if you count generationally. Bean didn't have that advantage - he was a one-time alteration. (well, he and his siblings) The people of Path were genetically altered in the past (by Starways congress? I need to re-read to be sure, I don't recall the finger being firmly pointed) and they have a generational effect. They were given the likelihood of uber-intelligence, and *in addition* to this, they were tagged with a live/dominant OCD trait. The OCD was put in place (engineered)to keep the intelligentsia of Path under constraint - generationally. Long term effects that allowed the planets to benefit from the ideas and intelligence, but made sure that the people themselves never went too far. Once that OCD was treated, their Path was opened. (bad, yeah, I know) Bean was a hardcore one time experiment - totally different motivations and goals on behalf of the designer.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
rivka,
I know.
*secretly wishes he could harness the gerbil-wheel of sci-fi fan rationalization powers to solve real scientific problems*
fallow
Posted by Talon (Member # 6669) on :
the entire premise of anton's key was that the person had essentially the mental developement of a child, bean had the learning abilities of a 3 year old even at 15 which was why he was smart, younger kids with brains that are still growing learn much more quickly which is why for example people suggest any foreign languages are taught at a very young age... antons key made it so the growth from early lvls of developement never slowed, now a three year old might learn really fast but he also grows really fast too, you cant have one without the other because the body growth is required for the brain growth... half turning the key or something also wouldnt work because you would still have all the effects because they are tied together in the same gene.
It was never about turning 2 genes it was about turning one, and turning that one only ever had one effect, which was a growth rate that maintained itself at the rate at which a very young child grows (which makes the high intelligence a side effect of the growth instead of something all on its own). The people of path had some other alteration made to them because they dont exhibit either beans super intelligence or his rapid growth.. the OCD was added to control the people and make sure they didnt get out of hand... they probably could have used anton's key but thats not a good way to sustain a colony cause the population dies at 20.
Another difference is that it was always maintained that bean was only intelligent in the sense that a computer is intelligent, he wasnt a creative genius like ender with flashes of inspiration and such, he analyzed everything and with his superior learning abilities was able to come up with answers from the information provided.. like a computer... the people of path exhibit the flashes of genius that normal genius's have and bean didn't.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*wonders what books Talon has been reading*
I think the genetic mechanism for Bean's aberrant nature is pretty well spelled out and not at all similar to what you (talcon) read into it. Moreover, I think Petra's ("outside") recognition of Bean's "normaltive, e.g. familiative" genius is what set's his story apart from that of the Ender's.
fallow
Posted by Talon (Member # 6669) on :
Hmm, dont have a copy of shadow of the hegemon to refer to but I always got the idea that Bean was altered that way with only that one alteration so his learning abilities were dramatically increased.. i mean it wouldnt make any sense to put a defense mechanism like super growth rate in him like they did to the people on path, he was an illegal experiment, they had no reason to alter him that way, especially because rapid growth like that really wouldnt even have been a good choice for a defect because it really doesnt give you control over the person just makes them die faster.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
that sounds reasonable.
[ July 04, 2004, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: fallow ]
Posted by Aria (Member # 6699) on :
I thought about Path when I was reading about Beans situation too Little Doctor, I didnt think that Petra and Bean went on to populate Path (obviously) But i did think that maybe Starways Congress found Antons research and also Valescus and developed it to come up with the people of Path and because it does say that Starways did alter the genes of the people on Path and then built in the OCD into it to control them and it makes sense that their research was developed from Antons.
Aria
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
*Bump*
This is the first thread I ever posted. I still have my theories about this particular subject, and since OSC is currently posting as much as I have ever seen him. I thought maybe he could clear some of this up for me.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I had been thinking of that exact same theory: this is something I want answered. Bump!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I suspect that the plot of some of the recently-announced books will touch on these issues. Posted by Andrew (Member # 7502) on :
dun dun dun
Posted by Mazer Smith (Member # 7518) on :
Well, they kept studying bean's condition to help find a cure. It was being funded by the mind game, so it would continue for a long time. The idea was to make it so that the intelligence would remain without the size increase. Ignoring single gene traits for a moment and say it was possible to split the two. Let's say they found a way to do it. It would now be in the hands of ColMin. Starway Congress gets it, engineers it into certain people of path after more adjustments are made to add the OCD aspect. It's fairly plausible.
Posted by Neh (Member # 7534) on :
But whats the motive behind starways congress experimenting with it on an entire colony? I've read all of the Ender/Shadow books and maybe its just because I havent read them in a while but did they give a motive in one of the SFTD/Xenocide/COTM books?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
). And if you wanted to look at 4 different genes on different chromosomes, you would need a grid that was (*tries to do quick calculation*) um, big. Quite big.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
The mind boggles . . . .
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