In xenocide i thougth that they said that when they shut off all teh ansibles jane would still live in ender and wouldnt really die. But in COTM for the good first half of the book (witch is where right now) all they are talking about is how jane is going to die. So i am wondering if i missed so important part where they relized that jane was going to die. I am way to lazy to go reread the end of xenocide and i want to finish COTM so i was wondering if someone could help me out?
Posted by olhando (Member # 7866) on :
hey billy, the ansibles are a huge web of philotes where jane has her being or auia or whatever. jane had to find a place where she could take the very center of her auia and stay before she could get a body of her own. that was inside peter and inside of ender and inside of young val. eventualy her auia found its way to the mother trees who could only hold her for so long. after that, though, val sort of cleared out of that body and she took over it after leading the remaining "val"ender to the remaining "peter"ender. so really all the talk about jane dieing was just them having a lack of information. maybe im wrong. also the most important part of her knowlege was stored in the old university computers that supposedly had the ansible security.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Hold it a second, Olhado! He didn't ask for spoilers. Suffice it to say, it's not an issue of Jane literally dying, so much as her being crippled, or one might even say severely brain damaged. I recall someone (maybe Jane herself) making the correction by saying that she wouldn't die, just get really stupid Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
If you have lost all your memory, are you still the same person?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Translation: "Have you read The Worthing Saga?"
Posted by Billy (Member # 7809) on :
Yea that makes sense, and olhando didnt spoil it for me, he would have but i read past that part before i looked at this forum so it is alright.
So far a really great book doesnt compare to the first one though.
Posted by olhando (Member # 7866) on :
im sry for spoilers, and no i havnt gotten around to the worthing saga
Posted by Peter (Member # 4373) on :
anybody else ever notice how the Enderverse has the same moral feel as the Worthing Saga. I loved them both, but maybe I'm just imagining things
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Written by the same guy, and the "moral universe" is the thing that the writer puts into the novel without realizing it. So they're bound to resemble each other at that level.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Hmph. Everyone knows OSC doesn't have any morals. He's a bigot, remember? And on top of that, a Mormon!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - (Just in case that wasn't clear: I'm LDS, too, he's not a bigot, and it's sad I have to write this.)
Posted by ChaosTheory (Member # 7069) on :
The thing about Jane that I never got is why she sent the sattelite photos of the pequininos and the essay about how they have tools and start the whole 'second xenocide' in the first place. She says that it's to unite the colony against a common enemy, but why start a near interstellar war so that Ender can tell a story about Marcao?
Posted by Hot Soup (Member # 7840) on :
Personally, I've never understood, the whole "you are your memories" idea. If my memories got transfered into another body, I see no reason why I would suddenly "awaken" and become concious in that body. Or if someone else's memories got transfered to me, I dont think I would become another person, I would just start acting from false information. Their great stories, but this idea doesn't seem to work IMHO. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding it?
Posted by ChaosTheory (Member # 7069) on :
I guess it comes down to... Do memories make the man(or woman)?
If memories made us who we were and I made 2 clones of me, each brought up in a different environment, each one would end up being different from the other and from me, the original.
If memories played no part in who I was, then the clones would end up being exactly like me in personality.
Get me a cloning machine...this could be interesting.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Alternately, I have heard of people occasionally suffering brain damage that doesn't cause any major disability but causes drastic personality changes. The person retains all their memories and experiences, but will often react quite differently in a given situation. Are they still the same person?
Posted by Hot Soup (Member # 7840) on :
Chaos theory: Have different behavior yes, I think that would be clear. But in any event, it would seem to me that the two clones would be two, new, separate individuals, just with the same genetic code. We're not talking about behavior, I'm thinking of the you that is your being, not the motivations for how you act. In other words, is there something that makes you YOU other than some data stored in the neurons of your brain. I would think so, because there is something that is analysing my memories as I type. Memory evolved as a way to protect YOU, not as a way to protect your memories. That's just a biological information storage structure.
Thus, then Jane "lives on" because her memories are now in someone else, i dont buy it. Just because you have a very accurate recording doesn't mean you have HER.
Posted by SmoG (Member # 7778) on :
Jane wasn't copied though, she just moved her "self," her auia(sp?) into young Val's body. She didn't lose her memory, so it's not really an issue. If you lose your memories, you may not be the same person, but your self, your "intelligence" or "Auia" is still intact. Jane would be the same person, but not the same at all.
I have a seperate question for Mr. Card, though. AS i'm sure many others did, i saw the nova special on string theory, and it struck a little familar in my mind. I know it(the theory) has been around for a while, did you draw on it for your "Outside" and philotic strands ideas? I do realize the ideas have background in LDS theology, but also science?
[Edited to separate questions]
[ April 25, 2005, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: SmoG ]
Posted by CRash (Member # 7754) on :
quote:If you have lost all your memory, are you still the same person?
First thought: Oh no, I'm going to hear a lecture on somec and memory bubbles (Worthing Saga) so I should tune out this discussion now.
Second thought: On the subject of transferred aiuas, Ender-became-Peter could have been said to have "lost all his memory", or at least the important parts. So is this Peter-copy actually more like Peter, his image, or now just a different version of Ender? He has the same will, right? Wouldn't it make sense to assume he would make much the same decisions Ender would, in his place?
Posted by SmoG (Member # 7778) on :
It wouldn't make sense, CRash, because Ender created the new Peter as he imagined Peter was. sure, now Ender's aiua is now inhabiting the body, but not before part of it was changed by Wang Mu, Jane, and Ender himself. Thus the memories do make the person, as Peter 2.0 was not ender, and he wasn't Peter 1.0, he was Peter 2.0. He had the same memories as Ender, but also had his own separate emeories. The memories, and the person, as well as their reactions to other people, makes the person? The reason Jane didn't change is because she moved into an empty shell... I am just throwing out ideas here, but I would like anyone to acknowledge my above query^^^^^^
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