I have recently re-read the Pastwatch series and I have been researching the Mormon religion and I have to wonder about the gold plates of Joseph Smith. Mr. Card recently closed a thread and stated that singular questions should be answered on singular threads so PLEASE do NOT write on this thread unless it pertains directly to the plates and PLEASE DONT ask any questions. I dont want anyone insulted or offended.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Try posting this on the other side of the forum, and you'll probably get a better or at least a quicker response.
I have to say though, you didn't ask a question. What is it that you're wondering about the golden plates.
[ September 17, 2005, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Good Point...
I am interested in any information about them, their history, any recent attepmts to find/research them? I am primarily based on this side of the forum so i dont really check over there and I am willing to wait.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What does that have to do with Pastwatch?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I was wondering about the story that Joseph Smith found the gold plates, and they were used to convey the book of mormon. In pastwatch they use the gold plates to convey the alternate history and I was trying to se what other possible allusions to the mormon religion Mr. Card's books may have.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
Lots.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Lots and lots and lots.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
See also the Harmony series, especially book 4 I think it was. The Keeper of Earth is like an echo of God; there are gold plates IIRC made to convey history.
I didn't remember the gold plates in Pastwatch.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Uh, book 4? The whole Call of Earth or whatever you want to call it series (I think that's what you're talking about, right?) is loosely based on the Book of Mormon. And Alvin Maker is loosely patterned around Joseph Smith. And...
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
In Pastwatch there were no allusions to the Gold Plates, but there was to the First Vision. As for your question, you might be interested in By The Hand of Mormon to get an idea of both the history and the meaning behind them.
[ September 18, 2005, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Occasional ]
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
There are, however, metal plates preserved with Kemal's body that tell the story of Pastwatch to those living in the new history.
And yeah, it's probably an allusion.
edit: reversed vowels in a word. cripes.
[ September 18, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: MattB ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Hmmm . . . I missed that. Then again, it has been more than five years since I read the book.
Posted by Presences (Member # 8492) on :
The story of how Joseph Smith Found the plates are in the beginning of the Book of Mormon. See link - web page Click on the Title page and the Introduction links.
If you want to know more about these Golden Plates,(the Book of Mormon), why not go to the source. You can go to web page and in the SEARCH section type in "plates" and get a whole listing of scriptures with the work "plates", many of which describe in detail their purposes. This searches on all of the LDS Standard Works, so you will get scriptures starting with the bible and then at about line 10, the book of Mormon scriptures will start.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm not sure that I buy that the plates in the skulls are an allusion to the golden plates.
It's possible, but OSC has already done the golden/brass plates twice -- once in the homecoming series, once in the Alvin series.
Posted by Presences (Member # 8492) on :
FYI: I feel is it important to understand that the brass plates and golden plates are completely different ancient records.
The Brass Plates refer to the record of the Jews from the beginning down to the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah. Many books found in the brass plates are the same that are in the Holy Bible…because it is the same record.
The Golden Plates refer to the ancient American inhabitants. See this link for more info. http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/explntn Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
this is truly fascinating, I also have to wonder if there are any allusions in the more modern books, (modern like based in future or future technology) Like the Ender's Game or Shadow series,
[ September 20, 2005, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: RunningBear ]
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
You know what I always thought was "interesting" (for lack of a better word) about the Homecoming series? That, since it presumably takes place in this world's future, approximately 40 million years after the events of the Book of Mormon the same events are reenacted, meaning that the Book of Mormon is both history and prophecy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's not really an allusion, but Ender's mom was Mormon.
A lot of the ideas in Xenocide/Children of the Mind are taken from Momonism. The iuas (I'm probably spelling it wrong -- the soul/spirit/thread things) sound a lot like some of the things taught by Momrmon scholar Cleon Scousen.
The idea that Christopher Columbus was inspired by God to find the New World is present in Mormonism, and it's echoes can be seen in Pastwatch.
Many of the characters in Lost Boys were Mormon.
Deseret Industries, a thrift store run by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the correct name for the Mormon Church), is mentioned in a few of his short stories, including Freeway Games.
In the short story Prior Restraint, it talks about how hard it is to drink at a bar in either Salt Lake valley or in Utah valley.
[ September 21, 2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
There's also a competely random mention of driving by the Mormon Temple in Washington, DC in Treasure Box.
(But better inside joke for OSC fans is the completely random one-page discussion of the song "I Put My Blue Jeans On," which was the inspiration (if you can call it that) for the title of OSC's story "I Put My Blue Genes On.")
And "Freeway Games" also contains a very crude line about Mormon women, but put in the mouth of a character you have to hate, so no harm done.
[ September 21, 2005, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Omega M. ]
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Gold does not oxidize. It doesn't corrode. It makes an ideal medium for engraving because it's relatively soft but not fluid. It lasts and lasts. I don't use it as a reference to the Book of Mormon. I used gold in Pastwatch for the same REASON that gold was used for the Book of Mormon - because it's the metal of choice for long-lasting engravings.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
Thank you, that is the clarification that I was looing for.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I keep reading the beginning of OSC's post as "God does not oxidize", which brings all kinds of bizarre ideas to mind.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Me too, porter!
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: There's also a competely random mention of driving by the Mormon Temple in Washington, DC in Treasure Box.
Beautiful by the way, I drive by it very often. When I was little my parents told me it was Castle Grey Skull.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Archeologists have found gold plates being used for record keeping, so it isn't just a Mormon belief. Don't ask me where to find info on it. I read about this years ago. Google is your friend. Do a search for Gold Plates and NOT mormon (can't remember off the top of my head how to do that, but you should be able to)
The book Folk of the Fringe is about Mormons as well (takes place in future after US government colapses). And Woman of Destiny/Saints is about Eliza R. Snow, one of Joseph Smith's wives.
Posted by Joshua Newberry (Member # 7864) on :
Not even five minutes before this above post had I read this thread and considered mentioning Folk of the Fringe. I recommend it to anyone interested in a "different Card" still in a futuristic sense.
Remember though: this book has turned off a couple readers I personally know from Card because they didn't get it about him being Mormon, and viewed the book as a blatent claim that all non-Mormons are wrong.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Huh. I know more that a few Mormons that have been turned off of OSC because of that book.
I personally had some pretty big problems with it the first time I read it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Really Porter? Like what? It's been ages since I read the book, and of course I came to it almost wholly ignorant of anything having to do with the LDS, so it's no surprise that I don't remember anything that seemed like it would be terribly offputting to members of the faith. Maybe I should add Folk of the Fringe to my reread list.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
what is the name of this book? who is it by?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The book we are talking is called Folk of the Fringe and it's a collection of short stories by OSC that take place in post-apocalyptic Utah.
S P O I L E R S
What really bothered me was the story America (the last one in the book), and the idea that the protagonist was "inspired" to fornicate with that woman in the jungle.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
it was more a Father Universe:Mother Earth coupling with continents instead of celestial bodies. Nothing really vulgar, just a way to tie these characters VERY strongly together
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Yeah, I kinda figured that one was the one. Or maybe it was the
S P O I L E R S
underwater SLC temple?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That didn't bother me in the slightest.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
That book made me feel very lonely. Very. Lonely.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I thought "America" was a very good story (and, in a rare occurrence for me and OSC, actually had a funny sex-related scene!) but I wonder if I've seen its "what you thought was sci-fi is at least part fantasy" move a little too often in stories by various writers. I'm almost done with Earthfall (yes, I stuck with Homecoming even after I slagged The Ships of Earth many moons ago, and I have found a number of moving episodes in it), and I'm finding it a little anticlimactic that Homecoming seems to be making the same shift.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I wouldn't call it a shift at all. OSC has said many times that to him here isn't any difference between fantasy and science fiction.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I love Folk of the Fringe, but you're right, I usually skip "America" because it bothers me.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Okay, fine, "what you thought was a story about spaceships and robots is at least partially about spirits and magic."
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
A story that's about spaceships, robots, spritis, or magic doesn't sound like a very good story.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
What about a story that is about something else but includes all those elements? hehehe. For NaNoWriMo in Novemeber, I'm planning on having all 4. Robots don't matter as much, but certainly the other 3 will.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I liked the idea of "Folk of the Fringe," and thought some stories were good ("West" is a classic in Mormon and Sci-Fi fiction I think), but had problems with its moral conclusions. I know this is an absolutely strange thing to say since OSC wrote the stories, but I felt Mormons were degraded. "West" was great because it was about a battered and persecuted people who rebuilds when everyone and everything else is ruined. The rest was social commentary about Utah Mormonism; but ended up making all Mormons look like fools and self-congratulatory hypocrites. His story conclusions seemed to say, you rebuilt society and forgot to rebuild humanity. i am not saying that is such a bad conclusion, as Jesus Christ warns about doing that very thing. The problem is that Jesus, for lack of a better comparison, left solutions where OSC only left the problems.
The promise of "West" was that as outsiders ourselves, Mormons should learn to understand and accept outsiders. Sadly, the rest of the stories seemed to show that would be impossible. I bought the book for three reasons: OSC, Mormon characters, and "West."