Hello, I am French (so I ask you to excuse my mistakes) who like much works of Orson Scott Card.
However, I consider as regrettable that this latter holds in enmity France. Indeed, that's obvious when we read Enders Game : it's Bernard who plays the part of the malicious one, or still in Shadow of the Hegemon, in which in the final chapter France doesn't leave th European Community whereas all the others do. Moreover, Napoleon has a dominating place as a bloodthirsty dictator. Yet, if we study at all his history, we realize that he declared war (on Russia) only once (and that provoked his disaster).
That's why I would like to know the reasons of this hostility.
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
I don't think the thing about Bernard was anything personal, it was simply showing the way nationalities play out in Battle schoool. With kids coming from every country on the globe, you're going to have stereotypes galore for pretty much any culture there is. Don't take it personally. I don't know what you mean by Napoleon, I can't remember him being part of the series at all, but I might be mistaken.
Welcome to Hatrack Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
quote:Originally posted by Soara: Welcome to Hatrack
Thanks for your welcome
As far as I am concerned as French, when I read OSC, I feel hostility against France because as a general rule it's often "the malicious ones of low-levels" (google translation ) who are French.
For Napoleon, quotes severals times in Ender's Game, Shadow of the Hegemon and Ender's Shadow, I understand that for English speaker, he was a bloodthirsty dictator because the English's propaganda considered him like an "ogre". However, if we study him with objectivity, he defended only France (except against Russia).
Yet, I wish to make it clear that I like all the same these books.
P.S.:sorry for the long time but I write with dictionary Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
Achilles is Belgian, Bonzo is Spanish, Stilson American... I wouldn't take it personally. Imagine you were Russian!
If anyone, I have a reason to be offended! There is not one single German Battle School kid that we know of!!! Just kidding..., though... Tsk! *sulk*
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Well . . . no. We're not talking English propaganda. Most fairly objective historians do not much care for Napoleon in a moral sense. To the best reckoning, he spearheaded some parts of the revolution as helping democracy in France, but then claimed dictatorship. He was more often an invader than a defender. Now, he was a brilliant general, this much is certain. But he did extend himself where he should have fortified, ultimately bringing about his own downfall.
Frankly, the only historians that gloss over this are French apologists. A fair and balanced evaluation of Napoleon will find him to be a dictator, somewhat oppressive in ruling his own people, but brilliant in affairs political and on the battlefield.
As I recall, Bernard was the only French character in Ender's Game. Bonzo Madrid was the only Spanish character, but that doesn't mean Orson Scott Card thinks all Spaniards are like him. And Achilles (from Ender's Shadow) is Belgian, I believe, but we are not meant to think all Belgians are serial killers.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Je ne pense pas qu'OSC essayait d'objectifier les Francais comme des monstres. Osc a cree des personnes qui font du bien ou du mal. Leur nationalite n'a rien a faire avec leur nature. Bienvenue a Hatrack.
Les accents et les cedis ne fonctionnent pas sur le forum, alors c'est un peu difficile a lire, je suis desole.
In English, I was just re-saying what Pinky said. I'm a show-off, I know. Still, if a translator/interpretor is needed, I'm at your service.
Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
Thank you Flaming.
The problem is it's redundant with French.
For Joldo I don't understand all what did you write but we must us enter in the context : when N. assumed the power, France went out of 10 years of war in the country (and more with the famine in 1786-1787).So he thought to fight outside. Indeed, "the best defense is the attack" . The England with Russia, Austria-Hungary, Prussia, and after Spain, Portugal, Sweden declared war on France. Of course, to manage a country in state of war almost permanent, N. established a dictatorship.
Für Pinky, verstehe ich deine Frustation aber ich bin nicht OSC und ich denke ,dass ich nicht allen(?) die Nationalitäten einzuschließen könnte wenn ich ein Schriftsteller war.
Moreover, OSC clarifies Achilles is pronounced in french. Every time, it's details, but that accumulates in the course of OSC's books. It's clearly it's more obvious with Russia, but when Ender's Game is wrote (in 1986), the cold war is again a current affair(?).
For Flaming : j'écris souvent en ayant une syntaxe francaise, donc il se peut que je ne soit pas très bien compris. D'ailleurs je ne comprend pas tout non plus, donc il peut y avoir des quiproquos dans ce sujet. je te prie donc de bien vouloir clarifier les choses en cas de doutes.Je te remercie d'avance.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Achilles is pronounced the French way, but Belgians use French pronunciation often. I thought OSC said Achilles was Belgian . . .
Sprechen sie zehr gut Deutsch, Lhor. Aber dink ich was Pinky hat gesagt solte witz sein.
Hm. I don't spell German as well as I used to. Spanish has replaced it, I guess.
When Napoleon came into power in France, the republic was falling apart, yes. But he could have made peace and looked to improving internal affairs following the coup.
When we Germans look back on our history, we acknowledge that when Hitler assumed dictatorship to deal with the crises of war, he was just trying to get power. War was an excuse.
Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joldo: But he could have made peace and looked to improving internal affairs following the coup.
Napoleon made peace!With England in 1801-1802.The Amien-peace. But England broke off the peace in 1803 because it wanted the evacuation of Holland (which was french) for economic reasons. That provoked the german campaign (and Austerlitz) 2 years later. Moreover, Napoleon didn't want war on France but outside of the territory : he invaded so the countries which declared war on F. England was a lot of hostility to France because then it didn't want a hegemony in Europe from France (with conquests of the first republic) : England thought that provoked economics trouble. And when a general came into power, it's normal to think conquests will begin again.
The comparison with Hitler is not very objectiv : H. go out humiliate of the First World War whereas there were no same thing with N. Besides, N. didn't want the power, but it's his relation which urge N. to assume power.
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
I can assure you, OSC meant nothing bad towards the French. Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
I hopes, it's just it makes me sad with these "sous-entendus foireux" (it's few vulgar but I can't translate the meaning)
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lhor:
Moreover, OSC clarifies Achilles is pronounced in french. Every time, it's details, but that accumulates in the course of OSC's books. It's clearly it's more obvious with Russia, but when Ender's Game is wrote (in 1986), the cold war is again a current affair(?).
For Flaming : j'écris souvent en ayant une syntaxe francaise, donc il se peut que je ne soit pas très bien compris. D'ailleurs je ne comprend pas tout non plus, donc il peut y avoir des quiproquos dans ce sujet. je te prie donc de bien vouloir clarifier les choses en cas de doutes.Je te remercie d'avance.
But Achilles is not French, he is from the "international territory" in Belgium... he was only named by a woman (helga) who spoke French.
And don't worry at all about your grammar, there are native English speakers here who are less intelligible. As for your understanding us, the same is true. Sorry folks- but its true Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
That's right, but I have a hostility's feeling when I read OSC, it's the impression I have.
I thank you, Orincoro, for your compliment, but I think my English 's teacher don't agree with you Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
quote:Für Pinky, verstehe ich deine Frustation aber ich bin nicht OSC und ich denke ,dass ich nicht allen(?) die Nationalitäten einzuschließen könnte wenn ich ein Schriftsteller war.
Boff. Ton allemand, ce n'est pas mal! Malheuresement, j'ai oublié presque tout francais que j'ai appris à l'ècole, bien que je croix ce que je pourrais revivre mes abilitiés. Well, je l'espère!
However, I'm not frustrated. My patriotism is more or less restricted to the German language and the food (even if the latter is not that famous in the world). That's why I'm rather flattered than offended by OSCs books - such a mass of German loan words!
Though, I must admit that OSC kind of broke the rules: at least one minor villain (if there are any) in every American book or movie must be German. Just think of James Bond! Posted by Pinky (Member # 9161) on :
What about renaming this thread into "International Café" or something? Or "The United Nations of Hatrack"? Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Hi Lhor! I'm one of the resident Frenchies here. The other ones are Choobak who lives in Paris and there's also Corwin who's not French but lives in France. So if you need any help just ask. Salut Lhor ! Je suis française moi aussi. Bienvenue à Hatrack ! Je n'ai pas eu le temps de lire tout le fil que tu as commençé, mais si j'ai bien compris tu pense qu'OSC montre une certaine hostilité envers les français dans ses livres. Je n'ai jamais ressenti les choses de cette façon... Achilles est belge (c'est pour ça que son nom est pronençé à la française). Bernard est un sale type, c'est vrai, mais il n'est pas ce qui se fait de pire dans le genre tout de même... Quand à Napoléon, c'est vraiment une question de point de vue sur l'histoire, beaucoup de français le voient aussi comme un tyran guerrier et pas comme un héros. Il y a quelque fois des sous-entendus qui disent simplement que la France est fière de sa culture (comme dans Ender's game quand on apprend que Bernard a un accent parce qu'en France on n'autorise pas l'apprentissage du stark très jeune pour être sûr que tout le monde parle bien français) mais ça c'est plutôt vrai et pas si critique, si ?
Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
Für Pinky danke ich dich für mein Deutsch!! Aber ich mag der Dönerkebab
Salut Anna, tu as compris ce que je voulais dire, mais cette hostilité est plutôt une impression que je ressens lorsque je lis. D'ailleurs, en y repensant, je me rappelle que OSC octroie à Bernard tout les défaut que l'on pense des français : arrogance, orgueil, imbu de soi-même, vaniteux (ou là! tout ça je pourrait le traduire en quelques jours : je suis vraiment nul en anglais ).
En tout cas, je suis content de trouver d'autre français ici !!
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Peut-être, mais soyons honnètes, combien de romans français présentent les américains comme des crétins obèses imbus d'eux-mêmes ?
Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
Euh, à vrai dire, j'en connais qu'un et encore. Je crois que tu mélanges avec les Guignols En fait, je trouve OSC vraiment critique(en général), et c'est pourquoi j'estime les préjugées contre les français regrettables.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I suggest you read Red Prophet and Alvin Journeyman for a very different take of Napolean by OSC.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Dag is right - there's also Audubon (also in the Alvin series, around the 4th or 5th book I believe) who's French and somewhat sympathetic. Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
cum vobis omnibus in francaisibus germani?que dicere, in latin? dicam.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Honoré de Balzac is present in some of the Alvin Maker books as well. He doesn't keep the best company, but he doesn't come across as a horrible person.
Posted by Lhor (Member # 9491) on :
Pelegius : Germans with you all with frenchies (I am not sure). I am going to try to get these books.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
) who are French.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
Malheuresement, j'ai oublié presque tout francais que j'ai appris à l'ècole, bien que je croix ce que je pourrais revivre mes abilitiés. Well, je l'espère!