Hi! Let me start by saying that I am currently reading Shadow of the Hegemon and love all the books in the Enderverse. The more I read the more I notice Asians in these stories seem to be depicted stereotypically and I must say inaccurately. Whenever the stories turn to the Asian characters in their homelands I feel like I just switched to reading something like Shogun rather than Ender. Don't get me wrong, I do love the stories but I just wish the Asians could have been written better.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Are you including Indians? I'll remark that the Americans share a similar burden of national character, as do the Arabs. That's why it's the Enderverse and not the bridge of the Starship Enterprise. Which is not to say that Card sees people as unable to surmount their nationality, just that it is a real force that their character interacts with in the process of development. (And I'll give you a break by letting you know up front I'm half-Asian which makes me not an expert, but someone who is affected by questions of nationality.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:And I'll give you a break by letting you know up front I'm half-Asian which makes me not an expert, but someone who is affected by questions of nationality.
You're getting soft in your old age, Pooka.
Actually, that's not true. You were very kind to me back when I was a newbie.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
And here you are with 2300 more posts than me.
Posted by Lucky_Sean (Member # 6223) on :
That's just more free time - and as for the "sterotype" that you see, it is not a negative application of sterotypes. What it is, is the traditional culture being kept alive very passionatly by a colony that is completly founded off of what once was. Obviously on Earth and in other colonies the people of other nationalities are exactly alike, it is these cultural zealots that creates the colonies that have peoples that are identical to the most extreme parts of their heritage culture.
Posted by oolung (Member # 8995) on :
I quite like the way OSC depicts different nations, even if sometimes is stereotypical. But than if you want to show the differences, you probably have to go a little bit over the top. Most of s-f books I've read that are set in near future show a world in which everyone and everywhere is the same, so I appreciate OSC's books very much for showing that people of different nations very often have different ways of looking at things. And the more different people I meet, the more I'm convinced that there really EXIST some national traits, more or less noticeable in a big number of individuals Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
What exactly did you think was stereotypical in their portrayal?
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I can see the stereotypes he's talking about I suppose, but on the other hand, realize that Card doesn't spare much of ANYONE in that in the Enderverse anyway, including Americans, Catholics, and Mormons. Besides that, if you're talking about Path, then remember that they were a culture that was strictly engineered. Some of that probably had to do with the engineering.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Interesting dilemma. Since there ARE real cultural differences between nations (and between groups within those nations), and those differences are absolutely part of the daily life of people who are self-identified members of those groups, then when I depict members of those groups, should I pretend that those cultural differences are not there? If I don't use them, then I'm turning everybody into Americans; if I DO use those cultural differences, then I'm using stereotypes.
Here's the real test: do my characters from those groups all act alike? Or do they show the normal range of human differences WITHIN the culture group?
This does not count, of course, the places my characters visit just in passing. On such cursory visits, especially when you are meeting only people who are self-consciously representative of such a culture group, then it's hard to see anything BUT the cultural sameness within the group. You notice how it differs from the culture(s) you're familiar with. My characters share this attribute with all other humans.
No stereotype is true of all members of a group. But stereotypes DO represent, not just the view that outsiders have of a group, but also the markers by which members of a group recognize each other.
Some stereotypes are harmful and inaccurate. Some are accurate but embarrassing. Some are accurate and favorable. Some are favorable but inaccurate. I've never yet had anybody complain about the use of favorable stereotypes. So instead of a vague generalization that I stereotype Asians, let's have some specifics. WHICH Asian characters are stereotyped? Is Shen identical with Hot Soup? Is Virlomi identical with ANYBODY? Do I show any of these characters acting "just like you'd expect an Asian to act?" Do all other Asians act just like the major characters? Anybody wearing a Fu Manchu mustache and talking about "number one son"? Any Japanese obsessed with hara kiri or dressed like a ninja? What, precisely, are we talking about here, except that I wrote about characters who were members of groups about which a particular reader is hypersensitive?
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
quote:I've never yet had anybody complain about the use of favorable stereotypes.
Insert obligatory "Darn it, Mr. Card, so many of your Asian characters are intelligent, resourceful, and independent! Racist!" here.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist. ;^)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
My husband was asked by an Asian co-worker to change a personnel feedback report in which he called her "diligent". He was puzzled, since being married to me had not formed that idea of Asians in his mind at all.
Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
So, how is "diligent" unfavorable?
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Plus couldn’t stereotypes change for different people? Maybe I think this group looks at their watches to much. While someone else wouldn’t even notice or could think they don’t do it enough. I guess what I’m getting at is that aren’t the stereotypes usually taken from some characters point of view? Like how Ender or Alvin noticed things about a group of people. And these stereotypes you talk about are either in the far future (guess what, they could change!) or from a made up past (maybe the stereotype is one of the things different in this past). I know Scott does a lot of research on his subjects from seeing the credits and other background info he uses. Just look at all the research he did for Magic Street. I was very impressed with that. Scott, you do an excellent job! Keep it up and Thank you for so many great stories and characters.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Not to get started with the "reverse racism" kick, but just because somebody is a white American protestant doesn't mean he CAN'T have insight into a group with which he shares no transparent cultural connection.
There is a racism of a kind in assuming that he is stereotyping; and in fact that is a stereotype of white people, that we use alot of stereotypes and have little insight into foreign cultures.
Here's an idea, discourage anyone who tries to do something which is challenging, unnexpected, or unnussual. That way, no-one will ever have to have to hear how he "just doesn't understand." This about race and culture is the same as any other difference; people who DO want to be understood, nevertheless slap down any attempt to bridge the gap.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
OSC, what I don't understand is how you can use derisive racial epithets to describe the aliens in your fiction. "Piggies"? "Buggers"? All right-thinking individuals should be ashamed and offended at you!
(One of my favorite things that OSC has said at a public appearance was, "If I want to invent an alien species and then heap abuse on them, then why should anyone else care about it?" Or something to that effect.)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Steev- the offense at "diligent" also took me by surprise. But, there you go. I guess I know a bit the frustration of people assuming Asians will perform to a higher bar in certain areas than "normal" people.
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
quote:One of my favorite things that OSC has said at a public appearance was, "If I want to invent an alien species and then heap abuse on them, then why should anyone else care about it?" Or something to that effect.
Because it's totally obvious that whenever he creates an alien species, it's just so that he can compare them to an ethnic group, so that he can write stories that are thinly disguised tracts explaining why Hitler was absolutely right in exterminating the Jews, because Ender was right in doing what he did to wipe out the Buggers.
I mean, isn't it obvious? Ender was a third child, just like Hitler. Ender married at the age of thirty-seven, just like Hitler. And isn't it obvious that the Ender's Game series hints at incest between Ender and Valentine?
--Or something like that. I looked up that essay you all were discussing a while back. That lady was reading waaaay too much into it. ("Evil to she who evil thinks," right?) Like anyone would go to all that trouble to write excuses for Hitler in a novel form, twisting the story so much that only tenuous connections like the age the people married could be found, and millions of people would read the book without ever changing their opinion of Hitler? Give me a break.
By the same token, even if his work has ethnic stereotypes in it, it certainly wasn't intentional, and even if he suddenly realized how racist all his work was(n't), it's not like he can just go back and edit out all the Asian characters in his books. (Would that fix the problem?)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I grew up in China and when I read the Enderverse books I actually had the opposite reaction in that I felt the Chinese characters, especially in Xeno/COTM were very well written. Whether Chinese people in the future retain the traits they did in the books is something I cannot prove or disprove. All I know is those characters exist somewhere today.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: (One of my favorite things that OSC has said at a public appearance was, "If I want to invent an alien species and then heap abuse on them, then why should anyone else care about it?" Or something to that effect.)
PLANT!
Don't get your friendly lackies to support you here OSC... we all know Enders game is really a VAST VAST VAST conspiracy of apologetics for the reign of the Third Reich. We know this because you mention Hitler like, 3 times in Ender's Game, and you didn't sound sufficiently rabid when you called him a monster.
J/k Puppy, but seriously...
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
Seriously, it's weird that some people feel the need to over-analyze Ender's Game so they can force Ender into Hitler's role so that they can then criticize the ethics of the story.
Why not just criticize the ethics of the story itself?
I mean, there's plenty of interesting things to say about EG without having to resort to historic arguments. For instance, Ender didn't just attack the Buggers full-force because he thought he was training and that it was all a simulation; that's just why he was able to do it without being as consciously bothered by all the killing as he was unconsciously. He was perfectly willing to go to war against the Buggers in any case, unless he was just going along with Graff in that conversation. (And going through all that training for something he wasn't willing to do, which strikes me as rather improbable.) That would make an interesting point in an essay about the "I didn't mean to kill them, the adults tricked me!" excuse, without needing to use the words "Hitler" or "Holocaust" once.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
I will just yawm and pretend I didnt read the last 3/4. treat this response like you didnt please.
I think showing cultural differences is accurate because there ARE differences. I have visited many foreign countries and they have many traditions which tide over from past ages, and arent likely to die out. think about our tradition of waving our hand, demonstrating we dont have a weapon and wont kill eachother.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Yeah, whereas waving your hand in Greece is worse than flipping them off. If they had any concept of flipping off. I think they know what it means to us, so it's still not a great idea.
Posted by Avery Good Schreibner (Member # 8772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Since there ARE real cultural differences between nations (and between groups within those nations), and those differences are absolutely part of the daily life of people who are self-identified members of those groups, then when I depict members of those groups, should I pretend that those cultural differences are not there? If I don't use them, then I'm turning everybody into Americans; if I DO use those cultural differences, then I'm using stereotypes.
Here's the real test: do my characters from those groups all act alike? Or do they show the normal range of human differences....
What, precisely, are we talking about here, except that I wrote about characters who were members of groups about which a particular reader is hypersensitive?
Ouch. I'm American, and if you mean being American is having no generally noticeable stereotypical behaviors - we're all the same - I take issue with that. I often hear it said 'Americans are this way or that or Americans do this or that or American girls are like that' and comments about the ugly American. I believe it is difficult for Americans, for example, to see stereotypical American behavior because Americans, being Americans have been indoctrinated in the reality of their heterogeneity. So, we Americans can see stereotypical Southern behavior, or New York City behavior, or San Francisco behavior.
What, precisely, we are talking about, I believe is imprecision. Art imitates life or life imitates art?
I had the chance to write a story about two Chinese characters. Initially, I portrayed them with "modern" values, traits, and characteristics. By modern I mean like those that seem to be embraced in consumer societies like I imagine Hong Kong, Vancouver, London, or Berlin are. I just gave them Asian physical features and names and let the story take place in a modern China. I also had the chance to have the story read by Chinese Author and professor Wang Ping. She said my characters Couldn't be identified as Chinese and I needed to include more "Chinese stuff". So, I set it during the cultural revolution and had them wear Chairman Mao uniforms and chant slogans from The Red Book.
So, I believe that when writing about a people as culturally diverse as Chinese or Americans (which by definition includes all the culturally diverse peoples of South, Central, and North America), an author might find him or herself writing character representations. Me? When I write about New Yorkers, I use stereotypes because that's all I know and in the small space of a story, that's what I need to get my point across that I am writing about New Yorkers. and, if there is a reason for my writing about New Yorkers, I have to include hints about that tid bit as well.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)