I just finished Rachel and Leah, and let me just say two things... 1) this was the best of the Women of Genesis series, so far, and
2) I have heard some people complain that OSC's writing is not as good today and it was in the beginning of his career. This just astounds me. I challenge anyone to find another OSC book where he juggles so many characters, over so many years, with such depth and subtlety. I've known the story of Jacob all my life, but his take surprised me... nearly every character was protrayed entirely differently than I had imagined them... and it made for a fascinating tale.
But on to my question...
In the story, Jacob has possession of many ancient scriptures, including the Book of Enoch and the Proverbs of Noah. Since these books are not part of the Old Testament, I am wondering if they are included as part of the Book of Mormon, or if they pertain to Mormon doctrine?
Thanks, in advance, for any info you can give.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I've never heard of the Proverbs of Noah. We don't have a "book of Enoch", but we do have further information about Enoch in some of our other scriptures.
We also believe that the patriarchs had more written information and other books of scripture that we currently don't have. For instance, there's a reference in the Book of Mormon to prophecies written by Joseph, the son of Jacob (Israel), which aren't in the Bible. So we do believe that there were more books or writings that have been lost. That's probably where the idea came from ... that in Israel's time they would've had sacred books too, the writings of the patriarchs and prophets who came before them, just like we have now.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
If I'm not mistaken the Epistle of Jude in the New Testament refers to the Book of Enoch, quoting from it I believe. There are numerous scriptures and prophecies mentioned in the Old and New Testaments which we don't have in the Bible as it exists today.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
I know what you mean about the story of Jacob. I really truly loved how he was able to translate the story. Maybe it's silly of me, but I think Cards interpretation makes more sense than my own. I had often wondered WHY God had chosen such a sniveling little lying turd like Jacob. Apparently I was being closed minded. Card took the same facts that were there, and interpreted them differently, and... it's a much more comfortable picture anyway. It also makes me think about the other people in religious scripture. Often I think we overlook them, thinking things were so plain and straitforth, and we forget how dynamic and real their lives were.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
I made up the Proverbs of Noah. There is a lot of Enoch material but most of it legendary. The thing is, if I'm going to have Jacob be a keeper of books, something has to be written down. And since whatever is written there is OLDER than Genesis, I have to kind of wing it about what such a book would contain.
Fortunately, I didn't actually have to write any of Noah's proverbs. Though I'm sure one of them must deal with the idea that: If you drink too much, keep your clothes on. This one is still good advice, I think.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Not if Noah actually wrote the "Proverbs of Noah"... because if he was THAT drunk, he probably doesn't remember being taking his clothes off.
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
Well, he remembered it well enough to curse Ham's son. (I assume we're talking about Genesis 9:20-25.)
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Hmmm... guess you're right. It's been a while since I've read Genesis in anything but a children's bible.
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
Same here. But when you're an avid reader of Straight Dope, articles like the one at http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdrunknoah.html tend to stick in your mind.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
I always hated when we discussed this in school. My maiden name is Canaan and I always got a load of crap from the other kids when we read that part!
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
Hopefully they didn't include things like "are you really a vampire?"
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There is a story about Enoch and God in The Pearl of Great Price. Strangely, I can't remember where it is, but it is one of the best stories in the scriptures. Which is not to say I think it is only a story- I believe it really happened. I don't remember there being more depth on Noah.
A prophecy of Joseph is not just mentioned, it is quoted in the Book of Mormon. Jacob 5 (not the son of Isaac Jacob, but the man who was portrayed as Oykib in Earthfall) is a chapter from a lost scripture of Xenos. It is the longest chapter in the Book of Mormon and does not jump out at one as one of the best stories in all of scripture, though I have come to appreciate it. My husband groans whenever my daughter asks me to tell it to her.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
Yup, that's Jacob 5. Posted by Dark as night (Member # 9577) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: There is a story about Enoch and God in The Pearl of Great Price. Strangely, I can't remember where it is, but it is one of the best stories in the scriptures. Which is not to say I think it is only a story- I believe it really happened. I don't remember there being more depth on Noah.
The story of Enoch and his people is told in Moses 6 and 7. I agree, it is one of the deepest and most touching stories in the scriptures. By the way, a fairly brief, but descriptive story of Noah is in Moses 8.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I LOVE the story of Moses confronted by Lucifer in Moses 1. Tremendously powerful, chilling in fact. I don't think OSC did it justice in Stone Tables, unfortunately.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I wonder if I can find my copy. When is it set? We know this is not the time when he sees the burning bush, also, I don't think it is when he receives the Ten commandments. I believe it is some time in between. Then there's where it says "Show these things unto none except them that believe." Of course, it's all in the scriptures link on the church website.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
We have no idea what Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would have collected as their sacred writings. ALL of the Old Testament as now written clearly postdates their lives. If I'm going to pursue the fancy that they HAD sacred writings, what would they collect? There is a tradition of books of Enoch; and since there is an ancient custom of ascribing writings to famous prophets, whether those prophets actually wrote them or not, I felt like I wouldn't be stretching it to say that one scroll (about ten or fifteen pages) might be proverbs ascribed to Noah, and so on.
The entire Book of Mormon takes place long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead. Nothing from that appears in this series. Though of course I draw on some elements from the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham in the LDS "Pearl of Great Price." I worked very hard to make it so my novels don't contradict EITHER Genesis OR the LDS scripture OR the known archaeological record, and serve as a fair extrapolation of all those source materials.
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