Well, you might as well lock me up right now.
Posted by tabithecat (Member # 5228) on :
seems fair to me, now if we could just do something about the old drivers.
[ August 05, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: tabithecat ]
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I think it's kind of sad that we actually have to make laws like this. Obviously, you shouldn't drive if you are sleep-deprived because your judgement will be impaired (like it would be with alcohol or drugs). People who cause accidents while impaired should be punished accordingly.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
ludosti,
What is sleep-deprived? What is the line between sleep-deprived and tired? There are nights I can't fall asleep, yet I have to drive to work the next day. Could I be arrested?
Liz
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Man.
I would be so screwed. When I'm manic I go for days without sleep but my reflexes are outstanding. o_O
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
What about people who work from 5pm to 12am and then 3pm to 10pm the following day? Are you going to refuse me my driving priveleges? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
On the one hand, I have sometimes been behind the wheel when I was more than my usual amount of tired.
OTOH . . . why does it surprise people that they are expected to be able to drive competently when they are behind the wheel? Driving is, as Nick just said, a privilege.
The problem here, I think, is that unlike driving while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, driving while under the influence of insufficient sleep is almost never by choice.
So what's the solution? I wish I knew! Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: So what's the solution?
Not this! Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I could also comment that I drove severely sleep deprived for years, and even had narcolepsy behind the wheel.
However. Unfortunately, the medical professional still hasn't caught up with info on sleep disorders. It took me over a decade of nagging doctors, peeing in bottles, and having litres upon litres of blood drawn, before I was finally diagnosed with sleeping disorders and sleep deprivation. Obviously, not even doctors can recognize sleep deprivation.
If it can't be recognized by so called professionals, what are the rest of us to do?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Let me see if I understand you correctly, Nick. Suppose I am beyond exhausted, and choose to drive anyway. I fall asleep at the wheel, and cause an accident in which someone dies.
In that instance, I shouldn't be charged with vehicular homicide, and face the possibility of 10 years or a large fine? Ok, so what would you consider a reasonable reaction?
This law is NOT saying that you can be locked up for driving tired -- that would be unenforceable, I think. It's saying that if you are so tired that you cause a fatal accident, you should be held accountable. I have to say, I consider that fairly reasonable.
Posted by The Wiggin (Member # 5020) on :
I got the same idea from that information as riv did i think.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I have several times been in the position of having almost fallen asleep at the wheel. One time was after coming off a night shift. Another time was when I was a student and working.
It was a scary experience that I am not in a hurry to repeat. I altered my sleeping schedule accordingly to avoid being that tired again. Driving while overtired is dangerous.
**Ela**
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
<---has it on good authority that Ela is also a speed demon.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
The solution is this: You punish them for what they did wrong, not what caused them to screw up. In other words, somebody could be talking on a cell phone, drowsy, eating a hot dog, while putting on eye makeup and changing a diaper, but if they stay in thier lane and stop at the red lights, we don't care.
But if they so much as cough and end up hitting the car next to them, we hold them accountable. We don't go on and on about the possible implications of driving while sick, or driving with a tickle in your throat. We simply say everyone is going to be held responsible for what they do with thier car no matter what, and then hold everyone to that. Anyone who's not mature enough to figure out thier own threshold for distractability loses thier driving privleges.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote:"This is a wakeup call for New Jersey and the first of its kind in the nation," said Maggie's mother, Carol McDonnell, who lobbied for the measure.
Didn't she mean a sleeping call? AJ
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I think I got the same thing as riv, I don't think the police are going to be pulling you over and asking "How long since you had any sleep?" along with "How much have you been drinking tonight?"
But if you are negligent in ANY way you should be held accountable for what you've done. That means if you were drinking, or falling asleep, or talking on the phone, or whatever.
Besides if they really wanted to ban drowsy driving, they had better just shut the fire stations down at sunset and tell everybody not to call the firefighters until morning. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"But if you are negligent in ANY way you should be held accountable for what you've done."
Of course, but how will they prove someone crashed due to lack of sleep? Is there a test they can give a person? I just don't see how they can do this.
I was driving today, and I had this funny image of all these people calling cabs because they were too tired to drive home.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What docmagik said. There are always mitigating factors. Always. If you screw up, then you pay the penalty for the screw up. This law is totally inane and stupid.
I also think that the source article is misleading by saying that the driver was only fined 200 bucks after killing someone. The driver wasn't charged with vehicular manslaughter because he was sleepy? I call BS.
Posted by Feyd Baron (Member # 1407) on :
I for one applaud this law, but I'll get to that in a second.
How do they know if you crashed because you fell asleep at the wheel. In most cases, it's not exceptionally difficult to tell something adversely affected your judgement. The taletell signs is you either run off the road, or into oncoming traffic without leaving any signs of correction. If I person swerves or evades in an alert way, they will often leave streaks of rubber showing they were attempting to take corrective action. If these marks don't appear until you are three lanes over or are missing entirely, it's pretty easy to tell something was severly amiss, or you were attempting to commit suicide. This happens in drunk driving as well, where delayed or no corrective action is taken. If you are involved in a suspicious crash like this, and aren't drunk or were asleep, then you better have a damn good reason.
I for one believe that any accident that isn't just that, accidental and unavoidable, the driver should be held accountable. I personally, even if the court didn't find me responsible, would feel miserable for the rest of my life if I killed someone in an accident, especially if I could have prevented it in some way.
If anyone wonders why I care, I lost by best college friend because he fell asleep at the wheel, and his truck went off an overpass at 80 mph. I have horribly mixed feelings about it. I'm heartsticken the he died. I'm pissed off at him for getting himself killed in such a meaningless way. I'm relieved he didn't kill anyone else, though his gf who was in the truck with him (who's another frined of mine) took a year's worth of surgery and therapy to recover from the accident. My friend was the type that if something was illegal, he would be paranoid not to do it.
Drowsy driving is real. It is a problem. It should be illegal.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
One side-effect I see of this law is the ability to call in sick for work because you couldn't sleep the night before. They couldn't force you to come in, since its against the law...
Posted by esl (Member # 3143) on :
That would depend on the availability of public transportation.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I reread the article, Feyd, and the gist I'm getting is that they're not making drowsy driving illegal. They're just making it so they can charge people who kill someone while driving drowsy with vehicular homicide.
quote:
The bill signed by Gov. James E. McGreevey allows prosecutors to charge a sleep-deprived driver with vehicular homicide, punishable by up to 10 years in prison and a $100,000 fine.
Is the article really correct? Could you, before this bill, not charge someone in NJ with manslaughter if they accidently killed someone while driving drowsy?
O_o
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I saw a blurb on CNN last night. A group from AAA videotaped people driving along a stretch of highway, and watched all the nondriving stuff they were doing. It was quite scary, actually, and confirms my belief in giving all other drivers as wide a berth as possible.
I agree that drivers should be responsible for how they drive, period. The sleep thing just seem obvious, at first, but...
then I started to think about truck drivers. I think it is a given that a long distance truck driver is sleep deprived.
How about doctors? I have never understood the doctor schedule. My doctor had been awake for 24 hours when she delivered my baby. They are often awake for longer periods of time, and then they drive home. (or, uh, do operations)
I would still like to see the law as it is written, though, not a second hand report.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Brettly, I have never understood this practice. With our doctors, it is they, not the interns, who have long shifts. (I was there for 48 hours. She was there for 36 or so of those.)
Sadly, there is a drug someone developed that can keep you awake for extended periods without any drowsiness. Not speed, beyond speed. Few side effects. Still, the person has not gotten REM sleep in days, and people need sleep. Period. (I know there are also some people who just burn the candle, and seem to thrive on it.)(Isn't Mr. Card himself like that?)
Hmm. A person can take that drug and not be treated the same as someone who was drunk or high, when it was the same thing as far as driving safely is concerned.
I am beginning to see the other side much better. i still want to read the law.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I can't remember what it is called but isn't that drug you are referring to the one they gave the fighter pilots that accidentally bombed the Canadians?
AJ
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Bomb the Canadians!!!! Bomb the Canadians!!!!!
Oh, uh, wait. I'm a Canadian. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
AJ,
I am not sure. I read about it in a magazine a while ago, long before the war, I think. It was not on the market yet.
Hmm. That makes me think. Say a pilot in the reserves took that drug, flew a mission, and went home in his car. He drove off the road.
Could the government(truck company, hospital) be held responsible if one of their employees' jobs depended on sleep deprivation?
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