Today was Lunch-with-Lunch-Buddy day, and I told him about Bob's conclusions concerning rough justice in Texas. I explained Bob's theory, and he blinked at me, waiting for the punchline. "Yeah....and?" So, Bob's theory just stated the obvious for him.
Anway, this led to a discussion of rough justice. He is of the persuasion that the activities in prison that result from locking criminals up together with no other outlet and no self or outside-control is just part of the price of doing a crime. In other words, if you don't want to be abused, don't rob a bank.
I don't believe that. Justice notwithstanding, if the sentence for a crime is three years, it should be three years in a prison, not three years of loss of freedom and, by the way, three years of being abused and raped and destroyed, only to be released a broken man with a cheery wave.
Who was it that said a civilization could be judged by the state of their prisons?
If that kind of event is tolerated as part of the "price of crime", then it should be part of the sentence. The judge should pronounce and the record state the sentence for robbery is three years in prison and a lifetime of memories of abuse. If it can't be said - if that's too icky - then it shouldn't happen. We have an obligation to ensure that it doesn't.
What do you think?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
<Relieved this isn't an Onanism thread.>
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Kat, I agree with you completely. I used to work for an organization that did ministry with prisoners and their families. One story that will always haunt me is the 18 year old who was serving two months for shoplifting and was raped in prison. His mother called me to help arrange for a rape counselor to visit him. Of course he shouldn’t have been stealing – but in no way does that mean he deserved to be raped.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I completely agree kat. Would society condone it if a person were officially sentenced to three to five years of being raped? If being put in a situation where one is going to be raped repeadedly isn't a prime example of "cruel and unusual punishment", I don't know what is.
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
yep, total agreement, in principle
(pauses to laugh at Pop's interjection)
but it *is* unfortunately, a reality and one that should be considered when thinking about perpetrating a crime...
that doesn't mean we should just accept it, but it *does* mean "don't do the crime if you can't do the time"
<sings>
"Keep your eye---- on the sparrow!"
Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
Me too katharina. Don't know what to add, you just said about everything.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hm... so much for the controversey. Thanks, though.
TAK - then that should be part of the official sentence. "Three years of lost of freedom and state-sanctioned abuse."
If that's an understood part of the sentence, why don't we say it out loud?
*goes off to research if prisoners can sue for stuff like this*
[ September 10, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Based on correspondence from over 200 prisoners, inmate interviews, reviews of the literature on prison rape, and a national survey of corrections systems, Human Rights Watch reports that rape is "widespread" behind bars in the US. Citing surveys of guards and inmates, the group reported "shocking" rates of prison rape: A 1968 Philadelphia study found 3 percent, a 1982 California study reported 14 percent; 11 percent in Nebraska in 1996, and last year, in a study of prisons in four midwestern states, the Prison Journal found 7 percent. Correctional officers surveyed anonymously put the figure at 20 percent. Interestingly, line guards gave higher estimates than prison officials. These numbers are for anal rape only; when oral rape or other unwanted sexual contact is included it seems likely that somewhere between one-quarter and one-third of prisoners have either endured or fended off sexual attack in US prisons. ... It doesn't have to be that way, says Human Rights Watch. "Rape is in no way an inevitable consequence of incarceration," said Joanne Mariner, deputy director of the Americas division of Human Rights Watch and author of the report. "But it is a predictable one if prison and prosecutorial authorities do little to prevent and punish it."
This is such a skivvy topic. I apologize to the squeamish. But... what can we do about this?
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
I'm not disagreeing, Kat.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
They can try to sue. They don't usually get very far. The system is designed to discourage prisoner complaints. And newsmagazine shows run programs lamenting the number of prison lawsuits where they lump rape and abuse cases in with people who are suing becasue they don't like the food or don't get to watch the television channel they want. Then the public gets outraged about the "frivolous lawsuits" and the legislature passes laws that make it harder for inmates to file lawsuits.
And in the meantime a kid who was probably only shoplifting becasue he's already a little messed-up in the head gets even more messed-up because there are no rape counselors on staff and the stupid visitation regulations don't allow him a private visit with anyone from outside the institution.
Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
as for things we can do? perhaps spending more money on better and larger numbers of guards and law enforcement within prisons rather than on cable TV.
Maybe something can be done to work on the self-respect of those jailed? lack of self-respect often translates to lack of respect ofr others and the need to dominate others (which, I am led to believe, is what rape is all about).
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
katharina, this is worth a dedicated lifetime. Without that available, it's worth all the determination and eloquence left in a set of lives.
Could you have found a Hatrack Project?
We have social workers, counselors, moms, dads, teachers, doctors, columnists, brilliant and passionate young people ...
What could we do if we really put our minds to it behind something we really did agree on?
[ September 10, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
What's the incidence of rape in the general population?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
One out of every six (it used to be one in four, but reports say rape is finally on a downward trend-according to the same report I cite below)American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime (14.8% completed rape;2.8% attempted rape). A total of 17.7 million women have been victims of these crimes.[Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey, National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998.]
Sounds like we need the warnings in the delivery room, not the court room.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Too high, mack. Especially among women.
(My AIM loggeth doth arise)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
'Cept I'm at work and not on AIM.
Had another freaking appt no-show on me.
*bored*
And I have a mofo headache. And I haven't slept.
So yeah, Kayla. That was my point. The incidence of rape is still higher in the general population that in the prison population percentage wise. However, male/male rape percentages may tell a different story. It's a complicated matter. Mostly, it comes down to how rape is viewed in our society.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Fie on your work. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Email me (which I ALSO can't access). Lemme know when you'll be on again, please.
And I think my psychiatrist is avoiding me. What an odd feeling THAT is.
But he TOLD me to call him. Then he didn't call back. Posted by Zan (Member # 4888) on :
I wonder if the stats kat showed include all prisons including min. security or are confined to max. security. I would think the incidence rate would be much higher in max. security prisons.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What are the stats on prison rape in other 1st world countries, I wonder? If they're lower, do they do anything in particular to address the problem of prison rape, or is it just some disgusting fluke of American prison culture that for whatever reason didn't evolve in other country's prison cultures?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
mack:
I know its a problem in the general society. It's okay for me to be appalled at one issue without diminunizing others, right?
In cases of prison rape, its a controlled environment. The people there are there under orders of the state, but not under the protection. I keep seeing the word custody appear, but custody means both power and responsibility. The power part - stay here, don't go, sleep here, eat this - are all carefully taken care of, but the responsibility part - we won't let you be abused while we stand idly by - isn't.
That it is such an accepted part of the culture and sentence really, really bothers me. It's one of those things that doesn't talked about enough - I like the idea of including it in the public declaration of a sentence.
How many things are acceptable only because they are silent? How many things, if they were spoken of, would dissapear?
Kayla mentioned the rape incidence was going down. That's fantastic. How much of that is because we talk about it more?
Edit: Dang. Type too slowly.
[ September 10, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:It's okay for me to be appalled at one issue without diminunizing others, right?
Of course it is. No need to be snide.
I just brought up the incidence for the general population for comparison. It isn't a vacuum.
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