Q. What's better than winning a gold medal at the Special Olympics?
A. Not being retarded.
You see, I find that joke funny. Even though I know it's wrong, and that there are people around here that work with Down Syndrome people, and that I should be lucky that I'm not afflicted with it.
I feel horrible when I laugh at that. But dang, that humor is the kind that really gets me rolling.
The other night after I watched "8 simple rules for dating my teenage daughter," I remarked that John Ritter put in a drop dead performance.
I got several people upset with me after i told them that the Columbia astronauts were reported to not have dandruff because they found their heads and shoulders in Central Texas.
And then I feel real bad for saying it.
During Michael J. Fox's final episode of Spin City, I commented he put in a shaky performance.
Again, I know it's terrible. But it's funny to me.
Is there any hope for me?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
No.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Only if you come to Indiana and tell those to me in person.
Hobbes Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
note to self: do not tell funny jokes around hobbes.
pat, i *love* the special olympics joke. i almost killed a few of us by telling it in a car driven by a guy who hadn't heard it before.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
What's wrong with telling me funny jokes? So long as no tigers are hurt in the process...
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
A black-eye?
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
What do you tell a women with two black eyes?
Hobbes Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Two nuns are out walking and these two thugs leap out and start raping them. One says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." The other says, "Mine sure does."
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
What do you call a women with one black eye?
Hobbes Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
A quick learner.
Why did the Vatican have to elect a Polish Pope?
msquared
[ September 29, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: msquared ]
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
It looks like I'm not alone.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Hang on. There is un-PC, and then there is downright offensive. Most of this thread made me sick to my stomach. Might I politely suggest deleting it? And forgetting some of those jokes?
Posted by Her Royal Sweekiness (Member # 5747) on :
Trog, you dork. You and Jon Boy were telling these exact same battered women jokes at the Y shindig. At least give us something original.
[ September 29, 2003, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Her Royal Sweekiness ]
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Trog, I wonder if you would have felt OK about posting a joke that had an ending along the lines of:
Q: What's worse than ___?
A: Being Black Being a woman Being gay
We've probably all had the experience of laughing at something we didn't feel was quite right. When we choose to retell it, we're saying something else.
When it comes to retardation, it's one of the last categories of bigotry that's still relatively safe to express publicly. Back in 2000, Rush Limbaugh felt it was OK to make a reference to "the retard vote" on his show. Bill Mahrer, on the other end of the political spectrum, compared kids with retardation to puppies. There was even an AP Story a year ago that slipped through with "retard" in the headline.
This acceptability is just one aspect of the wider dehumanization that seems to find acceptance so easily. To me, the fact that you can feel safe telling the joke has a lot to do with being in the same culture in which a college professor slit the throat of her 6-month old infant. The infant had Down syndrome. While the blame for the act was laid on post-partum depression, virtually every article on the murder contained the quote "she didn't want to see her baby suffer."
The press coverage was also dominated by comments from friends, colleagues and professionals - all talking about the tragedy of the ruined future of the mother. No expressions of grief for the lost future of the murdered baby.
So I'm not amused by the joke. But, strangely, I'm not really angry. Just incredibly sad.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
[tangent to respond to sndreake] I think the use of the word "retard" is noo longer necessarily connected to the condition of mental retardation. Although that is where it originated, "retard" is used in modern vernacular not to refer to someone who is mentally retarded, but as a synonym of stupid. It seems like it is acceptable to make fun of stupidity (people who should know better but are dumb), but not someone who has a limited mental capacity. [/tangent]
The jokes I've seen in this thread, I haven't found funny (I don't think I'm offended by them - the closest I've come to being offended was the rape one). I do sometimes find similarly un-PC funny (although I can't think of an example at the moment).
[ September 29, 2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Humour is, at its base, a way of dealing with terrible things.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
ludosti,
I disagree. When I hear the context in which the word "retard" is used, it's a lot different than "stupid" or "dumb."
First off, it's used as a noun - a noun very close to a word in common usage. I can tell you for sure that when Rush Limbaugh used it, there was no ambiguity whatsoever - he was referring to people from an agency for people with mental retardation who were being registered and transported to vote.
Posted by Svidrigailov (Member # 5147) on :
If I were to make jokes like these about mormons, Caucasians, or American Troops I'd be kicked and band, rightfully so. However, I'm sure you guys will be fine.
I mean, we know how much those damn P.C. Fascists are always getting on our case for saying something like having "segregationonist feelings".
You make me sick. I'd better stop posting or I'm sure to break the hatrack code for implying violence or obscenities.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
There's a code against implying violence or obscenities????
O_o
--|--
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
snd -- here's a tissue.
I understand your argument, but you make the same mistake a lot of people make. You think that if I laugh at a joke, or in this case, retell a joke, then it turns me into the worst possible type of person who could associate with those kinds of people.
The slippery slope, as it were.
I make a joke about those with down syndrome, Someone once killed a down syndrome baby, therefore, I'm gonna to kill a down syndrome baby.
And I agree that half of those jokes are not funny on their surface. (The battered women jokes I'm not sure about. They seem to make fun of the idiots that beat their wives/girlfriends, because their excuses are what's being made fun of. )
I guess I brought this whole thing up because I would never tell a racist joke. When my father did when I was growing up, I would cringe. I am quick to teach my children to be racially tolerant, religiously tolerant and down syndrome tolerant.
And like I said, I do feel wrong when I laugh at these jokes.
But is it fair to make a blanket generalization that all un-pc jokes are wrong?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Oh, lighten up already, doofus. Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
*thinks* I know I used to find that sort of joke funny. I seem to recall telling one of those jokes on hatrack, actually...and a few people were offended.
Maybe I am just becoming grumpy. But yeah, this makes me uncomfortable.
I don't think finding the jokes funny makes you a bad person though. I do think that you need to consider your audience when telling these jokes, or any joke really; after all, the point is to amuse them, not yourself, right? I should hope that you aren't just saying these things to have a few laughs at the more uptight among us.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I personally find jokes that make light of physical abuse or rape to be VERY offensive. I?m not saying that the person who tells the joke is one step closer to performing the act. But what a way to talk about it. There is a big, thick line between using humor to lighten things up and using humor as an excuse to belittle. I really can?t believe this thread is on the forum.
Posted by Head Ditch Digger (Member # 5085) on :
You know, if you made fun of mormons, like what was done during the Olympics, or caucasians or any other religion for that fact, you would not get baned, you may have a few people get mad like they are now, but not baned.
Where I agree jokes like these do not belong on an open forum, Most jokes and comedic acts are not PC.
Trog, was asking a question. He finds this funny. He wanted to know what you think.
You all are making a giant assumption off what he finds funny. Trog, is probably one of the best husband and father you will ever meet. He never mean ill will to anyone. Hence the question.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:I understand your argument, but you make the same mistake a lot of people make. You think that if I laugh at a joke, or in this case, retell a joke, then it turns me into the worst possible type of person who could associate with those kinds of people.
The slippery slope, as it were.
I make a joke about those with down syndrome, Someone once killed a down syndrome baby, therefore, I'm gonna to kill a down syndrome baby.
Trog,
I've reread my post and I have to figure you must be in some kind of altered state of consciousness. I did not say the things you attribute to me.
Take it to the racism issue - one, maybe the only one, you seem to understand in this discussion. Most peope who tell racist jokes will never commit acts of violence. But the humor that relies on stereotyping, dehumanization and objectification are all part of the structure of racism itself. Supporting racist humor also supports other aspects of racism.
You're gonna kill a "Down syndrome baby?"
Please, if you're gonna defend this stuff at least stick with what I said.
quote:But is it fair to make a blanket generalization that all un-pc jokes are wrong?
Again, where did I say anything about "all un-pc" jokes." I picked one. You identified racist jokes, which are also "un-pc" as objectionable, so you also picked one.
I get into enough trouble with what I do say. I really don't need any help on that score.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Since I came to this thread willing to learn, I've decided to change my behavior on the count of making fun of physical abuse and rape. I started by asking questions, and the beginning of this thread got a little out of hand. So I apologize for making light of that.
So, where do you draw the line?
And if I make you sick, I'm sorry. I am, by no means, advocating behavior that harms.
[ September 29, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Trogdor the Burninator ]
Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
*edit-bah, too slow
To be honest, HDD, I saw Trog's opener as being a thinly veiled excuse to tell some jokes and hope for a few laughs. He's already said he knows it's terrible. The question he asked was pretty soft.
*shrugs* Sure, I don't think it's right to compare him to a murderer. I also don't think he approached the topic in innocent query, or he wouldn't have worded it the way he did.
Of course I certainly could have taken his tone the wrong way. I admit to being uncomfortable from the beginning.
[ September 29, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: ladyday ]
Posted by Svidrigailov (Member # 5147) on :
That's fine. I'm not saying you're any closer to commiting any acts of violence. The fact of the matter is, if I brought up a.. "non-pc jokes" thread about mormons or whites, I doubt the admin would be pleased. As for the code of conduct, didn't you read the terms and agreements when you signed on to this?
quote:understand your argument, but you make the same mistake a lot of people make. You think that if I laugh at a joke, or in this case, retell a joke, then it turns me into the worst possible type of person who could associate with those kinds of people.
I don't care who you associate with. You laugh at the joke, you condone the joke at least and there's an implicit level of support for the underlying message. Do I think you'd kill a downs baby? Probably not, that's not the point. The point is, regardless of what else. You disgust me and make me sick.
The fact that you associate yourself with the P.C. people in the little anecdote standing bravely against racism does not impress me.
If you are telling jokes about something people's actions, where they have an ACTUAL choice then I would grant you tolerance for just about anything. But mocking people for things that they can't change (gender, race,desease) is not at all amusing.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
sndrake - That makes it a little different (since I hadn't heard what Rush was talking about I assumed he was using retard in a generic sense, not to talk about mentally retarded people).
I have always thought it was interesting that it is more acceptable to tell/hear jokes about a group you belong to, than to have someone else tell them. For example, being a Mormon, I often find Mormon jokes funny. However, I tend to find Jewish/Catholic/etc. jokes less funny (especially those which could be considered offensive, while I have yet to be offended by a Mormon joke). It's like the use of "nigger". It's always considered offensive coming from a non-black person, while coming from a black person, it may be totally acceptable.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Snd -- then where was your argument headed?
quote: This acceptability is just one aspect of the wider dehumanization that seems to find acceptance so easily. To me, the fact that you can feel safe telling the joke has a lot to do with being in the same culture in which a college professor slit the throat of her 6-month old infant. The infant had Down syndrome. While the blame for the act was laid on post-partum depression, virtually every article on the murder contained the quote "she didn't want to see her baby suffer."
How else was I supposed to understand your argument?
And while this thread began in a lighthearted fashion, I seriously am asking where to draw the line.
Billie says it has to do with audience, and I think that has a lot to do with it as well.
Laughing at another's expense is not always wrong. Slash once said that when that person cannot fight back, that is when the battle turns from being fair to being unfair.
Posted by Dr. Zoidberg (Member # 5324) on :
Yeah, lighten up, Francis.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I'm going to go ahead and make my disgust known about this thread.
No, not about the people who are telling un-pc jokes, but rather my disgust is aimed at those who want this thread deleted, who thinks this sort of stuff doesn't belong on an open forum, the people who are angry at other people for telling jokes that make them sick to their stomach.
Humor is a complex subject. Me? I'll laugh at a LOT of un-pc jokes. But you know which ones I laugh hardest at? The jokes that make fun of Jews, or Jewish foibles.
Most of the jokes on this thread are ONLY funny because we recognize that the action is wrong. Otherwise, they wouldn't be humorous. They wouldn't cause laughter. They'd cause action. For example "What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?" Well, the punchline is "Nothing! You've told her twice already." Obviously, the suggestion is that when a woman does something wrong, the appropriate response is hit her in the eye. Why is this funny? Because the butt of the joke are stupid men... men who fill a stereotype I am glad not to be part of.
How about the nuns who get raped by thugs? The butt of the joke, in this case, is the thug who doesn't "know what he's does." We laugh because of the play on words, but also because of an inner fear. The first nun says the thugs don't know what they are doing, in a moral sense. The second nun disagrees... by taking a totally different meaning of the phrase uttered by the first nun.
So we take a religious expression that everyone is familiar with, and turn it into a joke about... MEN WHO ARE BAD IN BED! Its FUNNY to men because we fear the first nun's response, not from women we're raping, but from women we love. Those of us who laugh will NEVER be in the role of rapist, but we MIGHT someday be in the role of bad lover... and we FEAR that.
Shame on you! Trying to silence people who are turning fears, inadequacies, and evil into something that we can face through humor! If you don't like the jokes, I strongly suggest that 1) You aren't the butt of the joke, and so can't understand it, or 2) You might be guilty of the evil thats being laughed at.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
I think Svidrigailov also made a good point when he/she said....
quote: If you are telling jokes about something people's actions, where they have an ACTUAL choice then I would grant you tolerance for just about anything. But mocking people for things that they can't change (gender, race,desease) is not at all amusing.
And people, let's lay off the rhetoric and personal insults, I'm not against you here. I'm willing to change if I feel that change is needed. And I've already felt that way.
And thanks, Paul. That is where I was originally trying to go with this.
[ September 29, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Trogdor the Burninator ]
Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
/boggle
So Paul's insults are okay?
*shrugs* I was wanting to discuss the topic more, but since I'm not calling the people who do laugh at the jokes baby killers and I'm not calling the people who don't rapists, I guess I'll just bow out.
*is sad*
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Trog,
What I was trying to get at, ineffectively, it would seem, is that the reason you can feel it is OK to laugh at and retell a joke like that is simply this: You are a product of a culture in which the prejudice against people with mental retardation is so deeply ingrained it isn't really even readily acknowledged or recognized as such.
Y'all will have to forgive me - I live, breathe and eat this stuff. You'd think that would make it easier to have a conversation and explain myself wouldn't you? It doesn't really.
The trouble is there are so many issues embedded in the simple question "what's wrong with that joke?"
Let's try just one: Lynchings and other violence.
A big factor in making racism unfashionable among whites was the growing awareness and docuementation of violence against Blacks - most of it unpunished.
There's lots of violence against people with mental retardation, too. Although it's hard to get statistics, it's safe to say a lot of it goes unpunished.
In the 1980s, there were headlines when a baby with Down syndrome was denied simple corrective surgery and was starved to death. And Indiana judge gave an official seal of approval.
In the late 1970s, 24 babies with Spina Bifida were left to die through medical neglect, courtesy of an experimental "quality of life" formula the hospital staff used.
There are a couple of studies out now that verify what many of us have suspected. When a parent kills a kid who happens to have disabilities, the parent receives a much lower sentence than parents who kill nondisabled children. Many escape with no punishment at all.
I could go on and on with this list. See, there's a final variation on your original joke that I see played out with depressing frequency:
Q: What's worse than Death?
A: Being retarded.
It's not just a matter of making fun of "unfortunates" - there are real life and death consequences that some of us get to deal with on a regular basis.
I hope this helps, but am afraid it will only dig me in deeper.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
I disliked the nun joke because it deals with rape. I just don't think that's funny.
I agreed with Paul on this count...
quote: No, not about the people who are telling un-pc jokes, but rather my disgust is aimed at those who want this thread deleted, who thinks this sort of stuff doesn't belong on an open forum, the people who are angry at other people for telling jokes that make them sick to their stomach.
This is a discussion, one where I think we're all learning. You can leave, but I hope it isn't because you think your views aren't being taken into consideration. Ok?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Ladyday, you might want to check again. I didn't accuse anyone of saying people are murderers, or rapists.
Rather, I'm angry at the people who don't even want to discuss this or can't handle seeing these jokes. It says something about those people, not about people who can handle the jokes, and want to understand why they find them funny.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Some un-PC jokes just aren't silly enough, that's why they're offensive. There has to be the ability for the audience to both disassociate from the reality of the joke, and at the same time recognize the reality of the joke. Otherwise it will either be offensive or not funny. This is why a lot of comedians are un-PC. They must play it close to the line or risk being unfunny. I'd rather be boo'd off stage than get no reaction at all. (think of Andy Kaufman.)
Posted by Dr. Zoidberg (Member # 5324) on :
Paul, what do you get when you cross an alien and a Jew? A doctor whose fees are out of this world!
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
What about lawyer jokes? The most persecuted group in history? I feel greatly offended whenever I hear one of those.
Sheesh.
I think very few jokes are inherently offensive. To me it all depends on the attitude of the one making the joke. From some people even racist jokes can be funny because you know that they genuinely aren't racists and are poking fun as much at the prejudice itself as at the targeted group. From others almost any joke may sound offensive because you know that it is told with malicious intent.
I didn't find Patrick's (Trogdor is Pat, right?) jokes in the least offensive because I know from what I've gleaned of his character through his posts here at Hatrack that he is the kind of person who doesn't look down upon retarded (that's not the PC term, is it?) people, who care deeply about the lost astronauts and their families, and so and. Heck, I'd even laugh at a lawyer joke if it were from him .
That said, the most important thing when you tell a potentially offensive joke is to consider whether the audience know you well enough to realise that you are the kind of person from whom the joke is meant to be taken in the best of spirits. And that of course can be hard to assure yourself of in a public forum.
[ September 29, 2003, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
See, I found zoidberg's joke amusing.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
<<>>Dr Zoidberg Cool! Thanks for the validation, Paul.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
yes, I am Pat.
And as an alien, I am offended by that last joke.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Well, as an alien I was offended by the shuttle joke. The most tasteless joke on the thread, I thought. It reminded me of when some skinheads were whooping it up after the Challanger explosion in '88. They thought it was hilarious.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
But I won't throw any stones, because I did laugh at most of the others. Then felt guilty, as you said on the first post. Some humor is just like that, sick and tasteless but funny nonetheless.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Whoa. Look, IMO jokes like some of the ones told on this thread don't belong in the locker room, much less on a forum of this caliber. I COMPLETELY disagree that joking about giving a woman two black eyes just to teach her a lesson is simply a humorous commentary on my male insecurities. To use your own phraseology, Paul, shame on you for insinuating that I cannot control my temper and rise above such base, despicable behavior. All that joke does for me is make me picture a man who believes that this is the proper way to treat a woman. I have a wife whom I love dearly and respect deeply. I do not think of her as someone who needs two black eyes, nor am I going to laugh at a joke that suggests that she, or any other woman, does. And the joke about rape--sure, it has a funny line about the guy's sexual prowess, but he's in the middle of RAPING someone. Let me repeat that: the two guys are RAPING the nuns. And we end up LAUGHING. They are committing a violent act that has destroyed many, many lives, and the joke is that one of them knows what he's doing AS HE IS FORCING HER. Throw me a thousand jokes about a guy's insecurities in bed if you want, but do you have to make light of RAPE? I have a good sense of humor, but that doesn't qualify as humor.
How PC of me.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"All that joke does for me is make me picture a man who believes that this is the proper way to treat a woman"
and because you don't find humor in this, you insist the jokes be taken off the forum... not only that, you don't really think they should be discussed, why people who would NEVER rape a woman find this stuff humorous shouldn't be explored, etc.
Its not PCness, its shutting down communication. Thats ALWAYS wrong.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"but do you have to make light of RAPE?"
Who says we are making light?
Humor is often the most profound way of getting people to look at an issue. Its not simply something to laugh about. Good humor has something to say. Thats why Groucho Marx has gone down as one of the greatest comedians of all time.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Rape isn't being explored, it's being trivialized for the sake of humor.
Paul, the heck?
What about yelling? What about shouting abuse at someone? What about excoriating and browbeating someone?
If someone is screaming profanities, it's wrong to make them stop? Baloney! Words can be a weapon, and if they are being used as such, the speaker is being destructive. It's okay to stop that! It is necessary to stop that - to stop someone from unmaking in a terribly destructive way.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Sndrake, you made your points well. But don't forget all of the nerd/geek humor out there. Both ends of the spectrum get nailed. There's a long current of anti-intellectualism in America.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
*shrugs* And this is people shouting profanity? Using language as a weapon? I don't think so.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I'm just mad because nobody noticed my "lighten up, Francis" reference. :sulks:
DEATH TO ALL FANATICS!
One of my favorite one-liners.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Better off dead?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
No, this is the kind of stuff that is usually heard in sleazy bars and at the tops of water towers.
This is, for the record, the first time I have ever asked for a thread to be deleted, and certainly the most energetic rant I've ever posted. Also the first time I have heard jatraqueros repeat wife-beater jokes. You'll note that I still haven't blown the whistle on any post.
Un-PC jokes can be cleverer than that, can't they?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
One trend I have noticed in stand-up over the last 10 years is more and more self-referential humor. If you're making fun of yourself, few people will be offended, even if they are very PC.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Of course they can.
But express your dislike, explain why. You don't have to try to censor in order to be heard.
At core, my problem with this thread is that people would prefer not to hear this stuff then try to understand why people who won't ever beat their wives find this stuff funny.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Morbo,
I recognize there are other targets for humor - such as "nerds".
One key difference comes in matters of life and death. Whether it's a farmer in Saskatchewan who gasses his 12-year-old daughter to death or a whole medical team that presides over the starvation of an infant with Down syndrome, there's a whole different set of consequences happening for people with labels of mental retardation. One of those consequences is to treat their killers with sympathy.
If this thread continues, I'll post some links. Part of me hopes it doesn't. It feels too much like work.
Tonight, btw, is gonna be a short night and an early morning. Gotta talk on a Tampa radio station about a rock group that wants to stage a live suicide. A real one. Fun day to start the day. Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
A man walks into a bar and orders a drink. He downs it in one gulp, pays the bartender and loudly proclaims, "Death to all liberals!"
Oh wait! That's not very funny. Nevermind.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Wouldn't a previously announced suicide be illegal in most countries? For some macabre trivia, I have read that in 19th century England attempted suicide was a capital crime! So if you botched the job, the state would finish you off. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Pat, it was from Stripes. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Gotta talk on a Tampa radio station about a rock group that wants to stage a live suicide.
That is possible the saddest thing I've heard all week.
Hobbes Posted by Dr. Zoidberg (Member # 5324) on :
Why is Zoidberg trapped on Earth? Too cheap to buy a round trip ticket.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Morbo,
it is a crime to stage this kind of thing in St. Petersburg, which is where the concert and suicide are supposed to take place. Among other stunts the band has done on stage before are things like putting rats in a blender.
The way I see it, it's a logical extension of Mike Wallace doing his ratings grab by showing Kevorkian ending the life of Thomas Youk by lethal injection. When it comes right down to it, how different is what the band intends to do?
Edited to add: I don't think any kind of law against suicide exists in England any more. There aren't any in the U.S., either, but you are pretty likely to be put in mandatory 72 hour psychiatric observation at the least.
[ September 29, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: sndrake ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Is it a member of the band that's killing themselves?
Hobbes Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Hobbes,
The band claims it's a fan who is terminally ill.
I'll see if I have time tonight to find links to stories and post them. Gotta get ready to go home now.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
The AP story.
Posted by tabithecat (Member # 5228) on :
what ever happend to the good old days when GG Allen was as outragous as one could get? on stage suicide in an undisclosed place but you can watch on the net.... and yet it fits neatly into this thread in a strange way. how far is too far?
[ September 29, 2003, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: tabithecat ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:: What's worse than Death?
A: Being retarded.
That wasn't funny because it had no connection to the former statement OTHER than being an insult.
With the opening joke, there was a connection to the entire premise of the Special Olympics.
It's a JOKE, people.
Sometimes I think that the most ardently PC people have never really had to face much of the adversity that PC wants to protect.
Why do we say African-American? Not all Black folks are from Africa. Not all white folks are from the Caucasus region, so they aren't Caucasian. We say them because they're politically correct.
Humans deal with stress and storm in a couple ways: you either laugh or cry. If I'm stressed or uncomfortable or just went through some harrowing experience, I will joke about it. I joke about it because it's my way of crying.
As Paul pointed out, un-PC jokes can also mark particular foibles among ethnic and religions groups. I laugh long and hard from good Catholic jokes. Why? Because the irony is in some of the truth of the matter. If you can't laugh at yourself, then you take yourself too seriously.
At any rate.
I have an un-PC joke:
Q: Why aren't Episcopalians good at chess? A: They can't tell a bishop from a queen.
An Episcopalian friend told me that, by the way.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*sigh* My contribution:
Why didn't Helen Keller scream when saw the train barrelling at her?
She was wearing mittens.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
How DOES one scream in sign language, anyway?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*grabs mack and shakes her to get her attention, starts signing rapidly and with great agitation*
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
You know, I dated a deaf girl, and she would have found that HILARIOUS, about shaking people to scream.
Posted by Taberah (Member # 4014) on :
To be honest, some of these jokes are funny simply because it's forbidden to laugh at them. It is absolutely taboo in polite culture to be other than deadly serious about discrimination or sickness, and humor often thrives by mocking that which is serious.
Suppose that you're a dinner guest at an older couple's house. The lady of the house, a large if very prim and proper woman, is the sort to put you on your best behavior. While the husband is saying grace, the lady tries to flatulate discreetly but instead burbles out a noise like a St. Bernard trying to play French Horn. What do you do? I can't speak for anyone else, but I would probably be drooling with laughter, however hard I might try to do otherwise. It's far funnier because you must, must, must not laugh.
In modern culture, "non-politically correct" jokes can have the same effect.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
quote: A man walks into a bar and orders a drink. He downs it in one gulp, pays the bartender and loudly proclaims, "Death to all liberals!"
Oh wait! That's not very funny. Nevermind.
What are you talking about...that was HILARIOUS
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
I had an interesting conversation earlier this year with Greg Fleet, one of the top Australian comedians.
Some guys at a gig I organised were asking him about open mic comedy and how to make an impact. One guy said "I was thinking of making these jokes about fat kids - you know, there're really funny but do you think people might be offended?"
Fleety's response was "Make the jokes about you. People don't get offended when you pay yourself out. That's why Chris Rock can make as many black guy stereotype jokes as he wants. So say, 'When I was at school I was a fat bastard. You can't tell now, but I was. Other kids were always coming up to me and saying...' That way, the audience knows that you're not JUST knocking fat kids."
Personally, I have a pretty nasty sense of humour. I've been involved in a lot of comedy productions (mostly as a technician but I've also written a bit of comedy) and I've seen the full spectrum - from routine "John Edward's Crossing Over" parodies to "abortion convention" and pedeophilia sketches. I tend to draw the line somewhere - right about where someone playing a little boy makes a comment about wanting a priest to molest them, for example... Urgh. But I do think that humour is one of few ways in which we can push boundaries. Humour is accessible and ice-breaking. It often allows us to raise topics or ideas that aren't normally spoken of. Humour relies on the unexpected - often, the unexpected is the breaking of taboo.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My first instinct was, like LadyDove's, to believe that this thread was more a thinly veiled excuse to tell some naughty jokes, with perhaps a little conversation on the side. Part of that, no doubt, has to do with seeing Pat post on saxon's thread around the same time this thread was started. Or at least, that's the impression I gathered.
My apologies if I have misjudged you.
I think a serious conversation would have been better served by having the actual un-PC jokes be absent.
quote:Sometimes I think that the most ardently PC people have never really had to face much of the adversity that PC wants to protect.
I don't agree. But then, I'm generally PC despite the extent to which that has turned into a slur. I am aware of, and have even posted about, extremist abuses in the name of political correctness, but I think a lot of good also has come from increased awareness, and I think some conservative people paint way too broadly in their condemnation of political correctness.
-o-
I think Tristan makes some very good points in the different ways in which both the teller and the audience for a joke factor into the morality of telling it. I think maybe, in an indefinable and theoretical way, it may be OK to tell many of these jokes if both the teller and the listener are free from prejudice toward the group being lampooned, and no each other well enough to know that there will not be misunderstandings as a result of telling the jokes.
I think that may be why I don't feel uncomfortable when people make fun of groups to which they belong: I don't believe that they are based on prejudice, but on laughing at stereotypes. But more than this, it explains why I feel comfortable joking with some of my friends about the group they belong to. As a Latino, I find this to be a pretty common pattern with my Latino friends. With my good friends who are Puerto Rican or Columbian or Mexican, I often make cracks about their group, and they make jokes about mine (Cuban) and we all have a good laugh. But they know me well enough to know it's a joke. I have many Puerto Rican acquaintances who are not as close to me, and I don't feel comfortable making the same comments around them. (It's not just Latinos. I do the same thing with a British friend.)
But you have to be close enough to the person you're joking with to know how your joke will be received. Or, you can be making fun of your own group, in which case you have pretty much instant credibility on not being prejudiced.
Now, joking about a group to which neither you nor your audience belong is different. If you can joke with a friend about his or her group, the audacity of it, coupled with your relationship with the audience, makes it clearer that you are joking. (Along with the presumption that you can take as well as you dish out.) It's not unlike the gentle ways in which we sometimes poke fun at each other as individuals. Two straight guys telling each other jokes about gay guys seems a lot touchier to me. I'm much less likely to see anything good-natured in this. Same goes if you are telling jokes to an audience whose composition you don't know enough about. Like, say, readers of an online forum. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Oh, that reminds me. There are some things that I am personally incapable of finding humor in, such as rape.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think you can't change people's actions or attitudes if you begin with the premise that they are morally decrepit. I think you have more success if you grant that they are not racists, murderes, abusers, etc., and then calmly explain why you think their actions are inappropriate.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
O_O
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Icarus said:
quote: Two straight guys telling each other jokes about gay guys seems a lot touchier to me. I'm much less likely to see anything good-natured in this.
That puts in a nutshell one of the reasons I have a very hard time with jokes that devalue people with mental retardation - neither the teller nor the audience belongs to that group. I also think it's wrong to lump it with the "Helen Keller" joke, which, regardless of whether or not you find it funny, does not make a statement about her worth or about the worth of deaf people in general.
To be honest, I could be all wet on this. As it happens, I'll be co-presenting with the president of a national self-advocacy group of people with mental retardation. It will be at a statewide conference in North Carolina toward the end of October. I'm thinking I'll share the joke with him and ask for his reaction, explaining I want to share it with others.
[ September 29, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: sndrake ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Is he retarded (or whatever the appropriate word is)?
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I don't have access to his psych chart (or anyone else's, these days), but in order to be a full-fledged member of Self-Advocates Becoming Empowered (there are also nondisabled advisory members), he would have had a mental retardation at some point in his life and still may.
Mild mental retardation covers a wide range of abilities - including the ability to articulate one's positions on things and how one feels about jokes aimed at oneself.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I can't tell if that was meant to be ironic or not.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Like Mack, I fail utterly to see how the Special Games joke is the same as the death "joke". There is no correlation between death and being mentally or physically handicapped. There is, however, a correlation between those things and the Special Games. Just thought I'd point that out in case you were intending to open things up with the death "joke" which I don't think anyone in their right mind would find particularly funny.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
PS- Icarus, I hope that query about language wasn't something I evoked. While terminology changes over time (like it has with Blacks, who used to be "colored" and "negro"), I don't tend proselytize over that. Besides, what I tell someone about acceptable or current language could be contradicted by somebody else and really cause confusion and frustration.
More concerned with the broader conceptual strokes. Most of the time. Sometimes the devil really is in the details.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
The Special Olympics joke wasn't really all that funny. Not because it's offensive, but because it's just plain true. Being true doesn't really make it funny, it just makes you think, "Yeah, it really would suck to be retarded." Whoop-de-doo, I knew that before I heard the joke.
Personally, though, I think it's possible for a joke-teller and his or her audience to experience a joke that invokes a stereotype, and LAUGH AT THE STEREOTYPE, rather than strengthening it. In fact, some jokes (like the women-with-black-eyes series) are much less funny without the irony of knowing that punching a woman in the eye is a horrible thing to do.
However, the one joke that seems REALLY REALLY inappropriate to me on this thread is the one about the astronauts. Making fun of a class of people is one thing. Making fun of the actual deaths of specific people with families and friends is just wrong.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Or was that a caveat to say "well, even if he does find it funny that may be because he's mildly retarded and can't understand that's being insulted and that he should feel offended"?
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
By the way, I'm not accusing you of anyting, SN, just pokin' a bit of fun. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Sometimes I think that when we have finally achieved the true egalitarian society we will know because we will be able to tell because people will once again be able to laugh at racist/sexist/non-PC jokes.
Consider for example blond jokes or lawyer jokes. Most people can laugh at these jokes despite their insensitivity, because there aren't millions of blonds and lawyers living below the poverty level. Blonds rarely get pistol whipped or beaten to death just because someone hates blonds. Lawyers aren't twice as likely to end up on death row. Our society doesn't have a history of commiting real injustices against blonds and lawyers. No matter how many blond jokes we tell, people are still bleaching their hair. No matter how many lawyer jokes we tell, people are still lining up to get into law school.
As long as their are people out there who remember being denied their basic human rights because of their skin color, their gender, their sexual preference, or their disabilities, certain jokes rub salt in wounds. Telling them isn't a matter of PC, it is tactless and even cruel.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
My grandmother lives in an eternity of not knowing when she's being teased.
Why?
She has a completely different sense of humor than the rest of her entire family. We all have my grandfather's dry wit.
We aren't sure where my grandmother's sense of humor is. She has one, but keeps it well hidden. She's a very smart woman, but never gets a joke.
However, watching my grandmother get pissed at all of us because she isn't in on a joke makes it MORE funny. Not because gramma doesn't understand, but because at this point, it's all rehearsed.
I dunno. PC-ness can go way too far. Some of the stuff, are people that it's pushed for even asked? Has anyone seen or read the world according to garp?
With the PC movement, I think of the Ellen James and the Ellen Jamesians. The original victim hated the crusade that her victimization caused.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
And I still crack up over the episcopalian joke.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:Or was that a caveat to say "well, even if he does find it funny that may be because he's mildly retarded and can't understand that's being insulted and that he should feel offended"?
E.G., I'm not sure what this comment was referring to - one of my posts or some other. If this guy thinks the joke is funny and OK, I'll report it - he is a better judge of it as I am. Even if he reacts to it in a way that disagrees with my own reaction.
I'm really bewildered by the deconstruction of my own little contribution re: "What is worse than death?" Folks, it wasn't meant to be funny. However, it's the logical end of a long line of things people say "being retarded" is worse than.
Do you really believe that a punchline that essentially says it sucks to be "mentally retarded" is funny as long as it has the right lead-in????
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
I sort of agree, Rabbit, and I sort of don't. What about black guys making jokes about black culture and black people? I'm thinking Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy and even Bill Cosby back in the day. Or, even disabilities. We had a famous comedian over here called "Steady Eddie" who had cerebal palsy and made all these jokes about people with cerebal palsy.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
How would you feel if you did became mentally disabled?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
SN, not in a serious way, more in an acknowledgment of my own ignorance, and an honest desire not be be offensive through my ignorance.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Man, this thread is suddenly hopping again.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
SN, my comment was in response to this:
quote:Mild mental retardation covers a wide range of abilities - including the ability to articulate one's positions on things and how one feels about jokes aimed at oneself.
And was simply intended to be flippant.
Ok, so you're bewildered by what you see as being an obvious extension of the special games joke to the death one. So, why is it that you can't understand why others are bewildered by YOUR attack on their humour? They say, "but wait - it's not the same at all" and you say "how on earth can you say that?" Then you both kinda go "huh?". Others don't say that extension. I don't. Kind of like saying "child murderer" is a logical extension of not being "anit-abortion". It is for some but not for most people.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Mack, was that question directed to me?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
no, sn.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:Kind of like saying "child murderer" is a logical extension of not being "anit-abortion". It is for some but not for most people.
But I didn't say that. It seems that at least my first post on the topic was worded poorly enough so that people jumped to that conclusion.
But I maintain that "humor" that depends on demeaning, dehumanizing, devaluing or objectifying people with mental retardation really has the same underlying rationale as more serious offenses against that group of people.
It's also personal. The doctor who delivered me expected the brain damage I experienced through his use of forceps to result in severe mental retardation. His recommendation to my parents was that nothing special be done to keep my alive. Fortunately, my parents are stubborn people who don't deal well with authority.
And, getting to Mac's question about being mentally disabled - I'm already part of the way there. Most of what I deal with is in the coordination/neuromotor area. As a result, for example, I'll have to get up at least an hour and a half before the radio show tomorrow to make sure my speech is reliable. I have to put limitations on my driving these days. I had to have my partner cancel plans for a meeting downtown (she doesn't drive any more) since it would have involved having me drive for at least 90 minutes after having been up 16 hours. I used to be able to do that. Now I am not sure I can do it safely.
I think about the possibllity of developing other types of mental and/or intellectual disabilities because I am probably more at risk than most people for early development of motor and cognitive losses. I suspect, but cannot know for sure, since there aren't more than a handful of people my age with hydrocephalus, that I may show neurological signs of aging sooner than most.
I can't say I look forward to it - who like change that involves increased difficulty in living your life? But it doesn't really bother me and it doesn't scare me. My intellect isn't the only thing I value about me. And I have known many people over the years with significant limitations in mental ability whose company I enjoyed.
That really is where I'm at on mental disabilities. I know it's not exactly a dominant perspective.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
EG, You have a point. Blacks can make fun of blacks and the disabled can make fun of the disabled because there is a difference between making fun of yourself and making fun of somebody else.
As for the Special Olympics Joke, of course its the lead in that makes it funny. Thats the way all jokes work. It isn't just the connection between the special olympics and mental retardation, its the whole set up. The joke wouldn't be funny if it started, 'What's worse than finishing last in the Special Olympics?"
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I think what scares me is that I could lose my intellect. For many reasons, I think it's part of why I'm still alive.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
The more I think about it, the more I realize that sndrake is just way off the mark. There is not line of reasoning that connects believing that it is better to have a normal IQ than it is to participate in or even win the gold in the special olympics and believing that it is better to be dead than have a low IQ. The two just aren't connected.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Or explain to them that the Jews were gassed before being thrown in the ovens and therefore wouldn't have screamed THEN. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Sometimes I write a reply, and then think better of actually posting it.
Rather a shock to see the same thing, almost word for word, posted by someone else!
Mack, get out of my head!
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Way to completely miss the point guys .
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
Actually, Xav, I think Mack was suggesting something useful you might have done in that situation rather than addressing the humour issue. Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I liked Trogdor's jokes, and I know I've said worse. I probably wouldn't say those jokes in this forum, though, as I haven't been here long enough to decide what's kosher and what's not. I'm not really somebody that gets offended at jokes that relate to me; in fact, I usually laugh harder at those, especially if you can think of something about the people of Arizona *that makes sense* (the guy who had his wife frozen in his refrigerator, which just happened to be in my hometown, comes to mind).
Here are a few examples of threads I wouldn't mind posting on this forum, though.:
-----------------------------------
There are three blondes in a bar shouting "51! 51! Alright!" and cheering. The bartender walks up sand says "51 what? What's all this about?" and one of the blondes says happily "We did a puzzle in 51 days! The box said 2-3 years, but we did it in 51 days!"
A boy goes to his father and says "Dad, is God male or female?" The dad says "neither." The boy says "Dad, is God black or white?" The dad says "neither." So, the boy thinks about this a while, and asks "So, Dad, is Micheal Jackson God?"
-----------------------------------
Not like you wanted to know those...I just kinda added that last part so I could post some jokes. I'm always a little foggy on what is PC and what isn't, so I just base my jokes on my company. I think the above jokes are fine, especially when you think about all the references to onanism on this board. That gives even me the willies.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Xavier, I could have commented on the joke, but I was refraining. I try not to post in anger.
While none of the jokes on this thread have been particularly tasteful, and only one or two have been ones I would even consider repeating, that one was among the most tasteless.
There are better ways to make a point.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Rabbit, I don’t believe sndrake is "way off the mark." The special Olympics joke states that a non-retarded person achieving nothing at all is better than a retarded person achieving top honors in a competition. In other words, there is nothing a retarded person can do or achieve, no matter the effort, that brings them up to the level the non-retarded person is at just by existing. And that is exactly the opinion held by those who believe that mentally disabled children would be “better off” if they didn’t survive at birth. Yes, it’s a slippery slope argument, but it is not unconnected.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I was trying to be offensive.
I want some people to realize that they are only "just jokes" because they don't offend you in particular. To me there is very little difference between some of the jokes on this thread and that one.
Posted by Svidrigailov (Member # 5147) on :
Let me reiterate, I find you disgusting. I can put up with "un-PC" jokes. I really don't care. But the fact that you feel that telling them is WRONG, but you do it anyway leaves me filled with contempt.
Furthermore, the terms and agreements page to this web forum states:
quote:You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs.
So, as you can see this violates the terms, not that I care. If at some point in the future someone DOES start making anti-mormon jokes then they better just let them slide. If you're not going to enforce your terms then equally don't enforce them. Of course, they can do whatever the hell they want since it is a private BB, but I can't stand hypocracy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I realize that you were, Xavier.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I always have mixed feelings. I hate political correctness. I think it drowns out any kind of serious discussion about an issue by making peopel say "You are being too PC." or making people say, "You are not being PC enough." It is difficult to win in such a situation so one must simply tell it like it is at times and not play that silly sort of game. However, certain jokes, stereotypes and images still annoy me and make me angry. I don't like seeing some old movie with a white guy dressed up like an Asian guy talking with a ridiculous, exagerrated accent. I despise modern shows that only portray Hispanic women as maids and seeing the same sort of stereotypes about blacks, gays, any group dragged out on the screen. But how can you see it clearly if it's censored? How can you understand why joking about rape or mental retardation or being too casual about a subject is wrong without directing touching a person's nerves?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"I guess I should have just laughed and joined in the merriment though, right Paul? I mean, they are just jokes."
No, Xavier... my point isn't that you should laugh at jokes you don't find funny. The fact you think so tells me you didn't bother to try to understand my post at all.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I also think it's wrong to lump it with the "Helen Keller" joke, which, regardless of whether or not you find it funny, does not make a statement about her worth or about the worth of deaf people in general.
Thank you.
The point of my joke was that it is possible to tell jokes addressing disabilities without being dreadful and offensive. Even then, I softened the joke. Originally the setup was "Why didn't Helen Keller scream when she fell off the cliff?". In that scenario, HK is toast, no matter what. In this joke, she just sees the train coming, and therefore there is a possiblity or likelihood of getting off the tracks. In the first joke's world, she's dead. In the second joke's world, she pulled a Stand By Me.
On the other hand, part of a successful joke is the shock value - the little jolt of the unexpected or startling. I could soften the joke and still an effect because the previous discussion had heightened our sensitivity. I can see how someone would have to make the joke gruesomer to get a reaction out of a less-attuned audience. The question is how gruesome does it need to be before it is too far?
Now that I've sucked all the humor out of it....
[ September 30, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
My four year old has started learning, telling and laughing at jokes. At his age, the reason jokes are funny is because they are absurd. He is learning about how the world works, and so he is tickled when he can recognize that a joke presents a picture of the world that isn't quite right.
Older kids start getting into at least two other kinds of humor: humor that pokes fun, and humor that relieves pain/stress. The former is universal, and is a big part of what we often call "immaturity," even when it is exhibited by grown people. The latter is something that stays with you the rest of your life, and the need for it just keeps growing the more stress and pain you experience.
The thing is, these two areas overlap a lot. The same joke can be told as a way of poking fun, and as a way of relieving pain and stress. Even kids are usually able to tell the difference in the way the joke is told. For example, it is possible to tell a joke based on race, nationality or sex in a mean-spirited, vicious way. It is often also possible to tell the same joke in a way that simply invites people to look at an issue that might otherwise be avoided because it has too many painful/stressful connections. A joke told this way is not only not offensive, it is actually healthy and helpful. Context is very important.
However, there is a whole related class of jokes that are only vicious, and have no value as healthy jokes. I think a very useful discussion would be one that examines this line.
My first proposal is that jokes that are about the characteristics, real or misperceived, of a person or group have at least the potential of being "good" jokes. In addition, jokes that are about generic human suffering can also be "good." However, jokes that are about the real-life suffering of actual groups or people are almost never "good." An exception might be made if the sufferer himself/herself makes the joke as part of a cathartic process.
I think there are a lot of holes in this theory, so fire away.
UofUlawguy
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Stranger in a Strange Land wasn't my favorite book, but there was one scene in it that really made me think. I wish I could remember exactly how it goes. It's when Valentine (the Martian-raised human) finally figures out laughter.
The whole book he puzzles over the reasons why people laugh, and what they find funny. Finally, after he sees a lot of the meanness and suffering in the world, he has this moment at the zoo. He is watching the monkeys, and sees a large monkey strike a smaller one and take its food. The smaller one shrieks and rubs it head or something, but then runs over and smacks an even smaller monkey upside the noggin'.
Valentine just cracks up. For the first time in his life, he laughs. He tells the woman beside him that he has finally figured out laughter. He says something to the effect that people laugh because it hurts too much.
Can anyone remember the exact line?
UofUlawguy
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
rivka: but it's so warm and squishy!
I'll have to address the other stuff when I get home from work. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: I think about the possibllity of developing other types of mental and/or intellectual disabilities because I am probably more at risk than most people for early development of motor and cognitive losses. I suspect, but cannot know for sure, since there aren't more than a handful of people my age with hydrocephalus, that I may show neurological signs of aging sooner than most. I can't say I look forward to it - who like change that involves increased difficulty in living your life? But it doesn't really bother me and it doesn't scare me. My intellect isn't the only thing I value about me. And I have known many people over the years with significant limitations in mental ability whose company I enjoyed. That really is where I'm at on mental disabilities. I know it's not exactly a dominant perspective.
Stephan, thank you for posting this, it illustrates your view well. I knew that you had hydrocephalus and that you were an advocate for people with disablities. But I had no idea your future mental health was so uncertain. I don't know much about hydrocephalus beyond the definition, but I do know that people with rare disorders are basically at the mercy of fate, medicine is relatively impotent to help them as it relies on large populations of patients to test theories, medicines, treatments, etc. "there aren't more than a handful of people my age with hydrocephalus." I didn't know that, I'm glad you've beaten the odds so far and I hope you continue to do so. I've learned from various posts you've made regarding the marginalization of people with disbilities, and how society generally values their lives and struggles and accomplishments less than more normal members of society, and it has really made me think. Keep up the good work!
My intellect is almost the only thing I value about me, though I don't like that it is how I am. Senility, alzheimer's and mental illness terrify me. Kudos to you for facing your greater risk of those problems with more courage than I have.
And more kudos for having the depth of soul to get to know " many people over the years with significant limitations in mental ability whose company I enjoyed." Though I am far humbler than when I was a teenager (What an arrogant jerk I was! I shudder to think, ), I am still something of an intellectual snob. Your statement makes me realize how shallow and condescending I can sometimes be, though I hope I haven't come across that way on the forum.
I just went to your webpage via your profile. Holy crap, I had no idea forced sterilization was so common in the US.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I despise modern shows that only portray Hispanic women as maids and seeing the same sort of stereotypes about blacks, gays, any group dragged out on the screen.
Sorry to derail, but this reminded me of how the first Bad Boys was set in Miami but had no Latino cops or citizens. The only Latinos in the movie were, of course, the drug dealers. Apparently they couldn't find any others in Miami. Is the sequel any better on this count?
-o-
You know, in between the personal atacks, we are actually seeing some good discussion of an interesting issue here.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Uof Ulaw guy, I forgot about thet passage, very appropriate. Stranger is one of my favorite novels and has shaped the way I look at the world significently because I read it in Jr high.
quote:[after seeing the apes, Mike bceomes convulsed with laughter, to the point the zoo attendant wants to call an ambulance for Mike and Jill instead of a cab][paragraphs of endearments form Mike to Jill] ..."Jill, I grok people" "But how, darling? Can you tell me? Does it need martian? Or mindtalk?" "No, that's the point. I grok people. I am people . . . so now I can say it in people talk. I've found out why people laugh. They laugh because it hurts so much. . . because it's the only thing that will make it stop hurting. [more dicussion, no time to post.]
Heinlein
Does anybody still want this thread deleted? I could see you point if it was just a list of offensive or non-PC jokes. But it isn't.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Don't delete it. It's an issue people need to think about and deleting it will just make folks forget.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't think it should be deleted, but I don't agree with the judgment of people who posted inappropriate jokes here.
Posted by Deirdre (Member # 4200) on :
quote:The same joke can be told as a way of poking fun, and as a way of relieving pain and stress. Even kids are usually able to tell the difference in the way the joke is told. For example, it is possible to tell a joke based on race, nationality or sex in a mean-spirited, vicious way. It is often also possible to tell the same joke in a way that simply invites people to look at an issue that might otherwise be avoided because it has too many painful/stressful connections. A joke told this way is not only not offensive, it is actually healthy and helpful. Context is very important.
Yeah, I agree. For me, context is everything because it's the difference between laughing with someone and at them. It's why most people wouldn't have a problem hearing a joke about their father from their brother, but they would take issue if they heard the same joke from the rich kid down the street.
Who was it who had that theory about comedy engaging the intellect and suspending empathy? (Probably a lot of people, really, but I was thinking of one guy in particular.) I tend to buy into to that mostly, or at least the jist of it. Most humor, if it doesn't trivialize and desensitize, does at least tweak our perspective in a way that throws off our usual emotional response.
Sometimes, though, it's deliberately set up to backfire, so that it engages both intellect and empathy. A lot of satirists use that approach, from Jonathan Swift to Mark Twain to David Sedaris. That's the best kind of humor, IMO.
[ September 30, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Deirdre ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
You know, I looked back at what I posted and when and I realized that I was primarily responsible for most of the complaints, if only because Pat started off with a decent topic and I didn’t follow up. Icarus is right, I showed really poor judgment posting those jokes, without, really, any other purpose. I’m not going to delete or edit what I wrote since that would feel like I was trying to hide what I did, which wouldn’t really be fair. I apologize to everyone who was offended by what I wrote, and I hope you guys forgive me. I haven’t decided yet, but I may ban myself for a few days as punishment, in the hopes that next time I’ll think through what I say here before I say it.
I’m sorry guys.
Hobbes Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I don't want this thread deleted, either. I hope no one thought I was asking for that. As difficult as some of this is, it's been valuable for me, even if for no one else. Wiping it out and pretending it never happened doesn't make sense - the phrase "throwing the baby out with the bath water" comes to mind.
I'll post more later. After getting up at 5 am, I have to stay at work until maybe 8 pm - there's a meeting that I don't have to attend, but I have to give a ride to someone who does. I need to let my coffee buzz wear off and go find a corner here to take a nap.
Nice thing about working with a disability organization - the nap I need today is understood by all to be a "reasonable accommodation."
and...
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Rather than edit my post, I'll add here another point I had intended to include.
Because humor that pokes fun is so common among children, and causes so much consternation and hurt feelings among those who are the butt of the jokes, many people develop an inability to see a joke as anything but poking fun. These people are likely to find a joke offensive simply because it could, under other circumstances, be used to poke fun. They find it difficult or impossible to see the usefulness and appropriateness of the joke in its correct context.
These people have a lot to learn.
Unfortunately, there are also people who have never grown out of the childish phase of mean and hurtful humor that simply elicits giggles because it pokes fun at someone. These immature folk still find great glee in making themselves feel more important by putting others down. They misinterpret "good" jokes and may be likely to repeat them later in highly inappropriate contexts and with malicious intent.
These people also have a lot to learn, but I sometimes despair of their ever learning it.
UofUlawguy
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:These people have a lot to learn.
Maybe they have a lot to unlearn.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I sorta touched on this subject in this thread already, but I'll share a couple things that have probably already been said in this thread and so will not be useful at all.
I think it's possible to make a joke about a characteristic of a group of people without attaching a value-judgment to that group. It's the attachment of that value-judgment that moves jokes from the humorous to the offensive category (though admittedly it's possible to remain in both from an objective standpoint, but not usually from a subjective one).
In most cases, I'm fairly detached from humor. I worked as the house manager of a comedy show for three-and-a-half years, and so became pretty much inured to comedy. I'll still recognize things as objectively funny, but there are far fewer things I find subjectively funny, at least enough to actually laugh at them.
I don't think there's a line -- I think there's a fading from light to dark. If one's goal is to avoid offending anyone, stay to the light side. There are plenty of jokes there, and some very good ones, and they can be told without offending anyone except those who don't get jokes. [Tangent]One of my brother's favorite jokes: "Knock knock." "Who's there?" "Interrupting cows." "Interrup-" "MOO!" He told this joke to a woman in one of his classes at college, and her reply was, "What, are you calling me a cow? Are you saying I'm fat?" [/Tangent]
Some humor relies on how close it is to the dark side, or even having to cross over. Those tend to be my least favorite. I'm consistently unimpressed with black men who tell black jokes, gay men who tell gay jokes, latino men who tell latino jokes, Jewish men who tell Jewish jokes, fat men who tell fat jokes, etc. I think a repertoire of humor that relies on such a gimmick is in most cases rather pathetic. I won't begrudge them their audience, but I certainly don't want to be a part of it.
However, I realize also that a white man who tells black jokes, or a straight man who tells gay jokes, or any of these other categories -- such people are far less likely to be found funny, unless their audience consists of people who agree with the stereotypes portrayed in the jokes. I think that's far, far sadder.
My personal favorite type of humor is a play on words. Not so much puns, though they're the lowest common denominator of the category, but the unexpected twist resulting from an intentional misunderstanding of the clear meaning of words. This is probably why I provide such a rash of Onanism jokes. (Sorry if mentioning Onanism and rash in the same sentence brings up painful memories for anyone.) I think it's important that the joke be on the words, though, rather than on the person who said them. Some people don't discriminate between the two -- I try to be aware of who those people are, and refrain from the jokes if I know they will offend.
As I said in the other thread, there is comedy which makes fun of the stereotypes themselves -- movies like Blazing Saddles and The Three Amigos, for example. These often have a little more bite to the humor, and maybe I find them funny because I agree with the judgment that the stereotypes are objectively wrong. But that's subjective, too, isn't it?
I've rambled, touched on a few points but probably failed to support any of them completely. I think motivation is horrendously important, but also cannot be known; therefore, I try to assume the best of motivations for all people, whether joking or not. But I'm not perfect, and I have in the past ripped into someone (here at Hatrack, in fact) because I judged his motivation. I judged it wrongly, however, and felt bad afterward.
When I'm judging humor, I also find myself often considering what type of people would likely form an appreciative audience for the joke, and reflect on whether or not I'd want to be one of those people. Yes, some motivation judgment occurs there, too, but I keep it to myself.
But as I believe has been asked, what is the appropriate response? I received a joke via e-mail (twice) in which I found no humor and plenty of maliciousness. Both people who sent it are close to me, and I love and respect each of them. I'd like to think that I responded to them telling of my being offended for their sakes -- I wouldn't want them being thought of as the type of people who would send such jokes to others. Looking back, I was angry about other things (like Mooselet's current sleeping habits or lack thereof), and took it out on them.
Just so I don't sound completely pompous about the whole thing, here's my joke, also received via e-mail:
quote:A woman is looking at herself in the mirror after a shower, and comments that she thinks her breasts are too small. The husband, instead of telling her it's not true (as he usually does), tells her to rub toilet paper between her breasts for a few seconds several times a day. "It will take time, but they'll grow larger over the next several years."
She tears off a piece and begins to rub. "What makes you think this will make my breasts grow larger?"
"Worked for your butt, didn't it?"
--Pop
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't get it...
I have a weird sense of humour. It's remarkable the silly things I think are funny.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:The special Olympics joke states that a non-retarded person achieving nothing at all is better than a retarded person achieving top honors in a competition.
While I can see how one could interpret the joke that way, the joke does not state that. In fact, even after thinking it over carefully it never occurred to me that this was intended in the joke. To me the joke begs the question "Would you choose to be seriously mentally disabled if it meant you would win the gold in the special Olympics?" and for most of us the answer is so obviously "no" that is obsurd to ask the question. That obsurdity is what makes the joke funny.
In my mind, that is totally different than asking "Would you rather be mentally retarded or dead?" because the latter question is not obsurd. It hits closer to the heart of who we are and what we value in our lives and in ourselves as individuals.
I suppose that I should add that while I don't think the joke is offensive, I personally I don't find the joke funny. I think it rubs me the wrong way because the word "retard" was used when I was a kid to mock people who were different so I have a knee jerk negative reaction when its used.
[ September 30, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Good humor often has an edge to it. That's why it can be risky and sometimes not funny.
Recently I was over visting two black friends of mine. I am white. It came time to leave, but it suddenly started to pour down rain. One friend went and got a white trash bag and slit the the side down so it would fit over my head and shoulders, We had recently seen Dave Chappele's bit on his show in which he plays a blind, black white supremist/KKK'er. So I punched two eyeholes in the bag, threw it on and shouted "White power! White power!" while raising my fist like Chappelle had done.
Risky? Yes, very. In fact, I probably wouldn't have done it if I had thought longer about it. But they thought it was funny (I hope.) I got away with it because they knew I was quoteing Chappelle and that I think white supremists are morons. I was mocking the KKK, not black folks.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I may ban myself for a few days as punishment . . .
Nooooooooo!
No Hobbes?
Is this a punishment for you or for the rest of us?
((Hobbes))
Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
quote: However, the one joke that seems REALLY REALLY inappropriate to me on this thread is the one about the astronauts. Making fun of a class of people is one thing. Making fun of the actual deaths of specific people with families and friends is just wrong.
I think this describes how I feel. I don't think a joke is funny when it addresses someone's suffering. I do think that other un-PC jokes are funny, but I probably wouldn't tell them. Just because something is funny, does that mean you have to say it?
It turns out that most of the jokes I've told since childhood were based on very racial ones, but my parents cleaned it up to tell them to me. I did think the original jokes were funny, but I leave them cleaned up and tell them that way. Why offend someone when you don't have to? I understand that you can't avoid offending everyone all the time, but people have taken this and used it as an excuse to blatently and purposefully offend people. I think if you can avoid offense, then you should. If you can't avoid it, then do it, and don't lose sleep over it. I really don't think that telling offensive jokes in necessary for anyone, nor does it IMPROVE anyone's quality of life, when there are other, less offensive jokes available. So let's not tell them anymore, okay?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote: GRANDMA
The other day I went up to a local Christian bookstore and saw a honk if you love Jesus bumper sticker.
I was feeling particularly sassy that day because I had just come from a thrilling choir performance, followed by a thunderous prayer meeting, so I bought the sticker and put in on my bumper.
I was stopped at a red light at a busy intersection, just lost in thought about the Lord and how good He is and I didn't notice that the light had changed.
It is a good thing someone else loves Jesus because if he hadn't honked, I'd never have noticed.
I found that LOTS of people love Jesus. Why, while I was sitting there, the guy behind started honking like crazy, and when he leaned out of his window and screamed, "for the love of God, GO! GO!" What an exuberant cheerleader he was for Jesus.
Everyone started honking! I just leaned out of my window and started waving and smiling at all these loving people.
I even honked my horn a few times to share in the love. There must have been a man from Florida back there because I heard him yelling something about a sunny beach...
I saw another guy waving in a funny way with only his middle finger stuck up in the air. When I asked my teenage grandson in the back seat what that meant, he said that it was probably a Hawaiian good luck sign or something.
Well, I've never met anyone from Hawaii, so I leaned out the window and gave him the good luck sign back.
My grandson burst out laughing, why even he was enjoying this religious experience.
A couple of the people were so caught up in the joy of the moment that they got out of their cars and started walking towards me.
I bet they wanted to pray or ask what church I attended, but this is when I noticed the light had changed.
So, I waved to all my sisters and brothers grinning, and drove on through the intersection.
I noticed I was the only car that got through the intersection before the light changed again and I felt kind of sad that I had to leave them after all the love we had shared, so I slowed the car down, leaned out of the window and gave them all the Hawaiian good luck sign one last time as I drove away.
Praise the Lord for such wonderful folks!
Bunch of steretypes in there, right?
But I laughed. And laughed. Maybe 'cause of the Hawaiian salute. Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
When I started this thread I was posting in my Trogdor character, and because of it, I was a little out of line.
As the thread progressed, I've decided that this is one of those arena's where I'm not all knowing. I am liable to make mistakes, and to be honest, I'm ready to admit that some of the earlier jokes I posted and summarily deleted were wrong.
I will again invoke Slash's 4444 thread when he told me that he won't forgive his father because his father abused him when he could not defend himself. I agree with this. There is nothing worse than a big strong man picking on someone who defenseless.
I went home and thought about this alot. When we tell and laugh at un-pc jokes are we picking on those who cannot defend themselves? And when we try to explain it away as just having fun, or try to dissect what makes the joke funny are we just deluding ourselves?
Would I have told that opening joke to OSC or Geoff knowing that they both had a family member who was mentally disadvantaged pass away recently? Would I have felt equally stupid if I would have told it to a group, not knowing that they were listening around the corner?
I love children. I love all children. I would never do anything to hurt them. Why then, would I tell jokes about retarded children, that would hurt them if they knew what was being said about them?
I've learned from you on this subject, people. Perhaps I never thought it through like this before, but I will not participate in humor that makes fun of groups of people who a. can't fight back, b. are abused, or c. not deserving of the humor thrown at them.
I'm not going to edit my original post. But I wouldn't write those same things again with the wisdom I've gained. It's not a question of being conservative minded or liberal minded. It's a question of treating human beings correctly.
Pat
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*won't hug Pat, but would if it was okay*
Thanks, Trogdor. Still Magnus.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I've avoided this thread because I thought it was just going to be a list of racist jokes that degenerated into dirty jokes, and that didn't really appeal to me.
But this has turned into a fascinating thread, and I'm sorry I wasn't able to pipe up sooner.
Unfortunately, this post is going to be long, and therefore a lot of you won't read it. That's cool. Move along.
But for the brave with free time . . .
As a couple of you know, I'm a huge fan of one of the most offensive people on radio, and that's Phil Hendrie. His schtick is that he does voices, and he'll do the voices of his own guests, outrageous people who have horrible ideas. He talks to himself for a while, until he can get people outraged enough to call in who don't know the whole thing is staged.
Last night he was pretending to be a doctor who likes to help handicapped drivers who are driving too slowly to learn they're just as capable of going fast as any other driver. He does this by getting right up on thier bumper and leaning on the horn until they speed up.
So you can see he gets to deal with issues in a unique way. This particular bit put tailgaiting in a whole new light.
But one of the themes that runs through all of his shows is this: How manipulatable are we? How easily can somebody goad us into a reaction?
Not all of his voices are really that good (although some are amazing). But people are so pre-programmed to be outraged at certain things that they don't stop long enough to use thier brains and realize he's kidding.
(Although admittedly, part of what we see is also how scarily plausible even the most outrageous ideas can be.)
If you ask me, he's the opposite of such shows as Ren & Stimpy or South Park, where much of the humor relies on that "giggle at the naughty" reaction that a lot of us tried to overcome sometime after junior high. Those shows rely on thier audience's knee-jerk reaction to offensiveness to entertain. If you've outgrown the urge to laugh at detailed drawings of boogers or animated pieces of poo, the shows aren't really anything but boring.
However, there's another part of society that automatically reacts to the naughty by drawing back and screaming in horror, and that's why the shows get so much publicity. People are just reacting to what they've seen in the way they've become accustomed to.
So the shows take advantage of these built in "naughty" buttons by pushing them and making us all jump. What Phil's show's taught me, and I agree with, is that maybe we should uninstall the button and jump when we're ready to jump.
-------------------------------------
That said, there are offensive things I find funny, and offensive things I won't touch.
I find jokes about tragedy funny. My favorite joke of all time is about a Brazilian rock group that died in an airplane crash. (I won't bother to repeat it--unless you know the brazilian music scene from the mid-'90's, it's not that funny.) I find the challenger jokes funny. I love the joke that comes up whenever a celebrity dies in a car crash:
"Did you hear that ________ was on the radio?
And the dashboard? And the steering wheel?"
Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it's because I feel that joking about death gives us a certain power over it. By being able to laugh at tragedy, it helps us remember we're alive.
I don't know. Maybe that's a schlock answer. I certainly know there's a reason they call a morbid fascination with death a MORBID fascination with death.
------------------------
I've also traditionally found a lot of the "broken-down dishwasher"-style jokes funny, but I'm finding them less and less funny as I get older. A lot of that has to do with having two daughters of my own, now.
I used to think of stuff like "pornography" as victimless, solitary enterprises. Just somebody alone with a magazine or video. But now that I feel responsible for the protection of my two little girls, phrases like "objectification of women," are starting to mean something more to me than they did before.
This kind of humor can desensitize. If you doubt that humor can desensitize, think about television. Any "verbotten" topic on television is first introduced through humor. First it's through innuendo, then by jokes, then it becomes refrenced in passing, then it's just out there. Now we're to the point where you can learn more about sex from an hour of CSI than I knew in the first year of my marriage.
(Not to knock CSI, one of my wife's favorite shows.)
But by the same token, humor can also pull the rug out from under sacred cows, or point out that the emperor really doesn't have any clothes after all--lay things bare in a way they need to be laid bare so we can see them more truthfully. In other words, the same power humor has to desensitize us to evil can be used to strip away pretense that may be keeping us from seeing something in its true light.
----------------------------------
Phil Hendrie subscribes to the philosphy that's been brought up in this thread--it's wrong to make fun of something that somebody cannot change, but it's perfectly fine to make fun of something they choose to do. Hence, it's wrong to call Osama a geezer, but pefectly fine to call him a towel-head.
I disagree with this mostly because of the collary that's also been mentioned in this thread--you're allowed to make fun of something that can't be changed, as long as you're a part of the group that you're making fun of.
Now here's the deal: I think these guidelines are helpful to commics who are trying to make someone else laugh. It's usefull to know what's going to make people giggle and what's going to make them glare.
But as far as what I'M going to find funny, I don't think they make any difference. Humor is so serendipitous that impossible to lay out in A B C order all the elements that will make me laugh. If those words get into my brain and fire off that right set of neurons in that right way, I'm going to giggle, whether I'm proud of it or not.
So any "rule" like that really is just a guideline.
---------------------------------
One of the biggest moments in TV history was on the Dick Van Dyke show. (Dick Van Dyke show spoilers! ) In the episode entitled "That's My Boy!" Laura has Richie. Because so many of the gifts they were getting were getting mixed up with the gifts of another family down the hall, Rob becomes convinced he has the wrong baby. He calls the other family, who he never met while at the hospital, and asks them to come over so they can straighten things out.
When they get there, the other family turns out to be black.
It's hilarious. They said it was the only time they ever edited the show because the audience laugh was just so long they could't keep it all in.
But CBS was sweating over whether to put it in or not. "You're making fun of the fact that the man is black!" the execs told Carl Reiner.
"No," Carl told them, "We're making fun of the fact that Rob's a dope!"
So after consultation with various minority groups who cleared the program, they aired it, and it's still one of the funniest moments in TV history.
Why do I tell this big long story?
Because ultimately, this is where being TOO PC will lead us back to. A place where we'd rather not bring up a topic at all than run the risk of offending somebody.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Now we're to the point where you can learn more about sex from an hour of CSI than I knew in the first year of my marriage.
(Not to knock CSI, one of my wife's favorite shows.)
*sigh*
::wipes tear::
-o-
Good post. Interesting ideas.
I don't think the point was to figure out when they were funny, but a code of ethics behind when it was OK to tell them or to laugh at them.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I just read this joke. It clearly has a liberal bias, does that make it PC?
quote:A lobbyist, on his way home from work in Washington, D.C., came to a dead halt in traffic and thought to himself, "Wow, this seems worse than usual.
He noticed a police officer walking between the lines of stopped cars, so he rolled down his window and asked, "Officer, what's the hold up?"
The officer replied, "The President is depressed, so he stopped his motorcade and is threatening to douse himself in gasoline and set himself on fire. He says no one believes his stories about why we went to war in Iraq, or the connection between Saddam and al-Qa'ida, or that his tax cuts will help anyone except his wealthy friends; the press called him on the lie about Iraq trying to buy uranium from Niger, and now Campbell Brown is threatening to sue him for a sexual innuendo he made at a recent press conference. So we're taking up a collection for him.
The lobbyist asks, "How much have you got so far?"
The officer replies, "About 14 gallons, but a lot of folks are still siphoning."
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I thought it was a hilarious joke, even though I am not liberal. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:now Campbell Brown is threatening to sue him for a sexual innuendo he made at a recent press conference
Is this true? I couldn't find any more information about it.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
The president joke is another joke that reappears from time to time. Last time I heard it, it was an OJ joke.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
How can you tell the difference between a Democrat and a Republican? Throw a nickel on the table and turn your back. A Democrat will steal the nickel but a Republican will kill you for it.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*snort*
Posted by Dude Love (Member # 2437) on :
Dave Barry:
quote: The Democrats seem to be basically nicer people, but they have demonstrated time and time again that they have the management skills of celery. They're the kind of people who'd stop to help you change a flat, but would somehow manage to set your car on fire. I would be reluctant to entrust them with a Cuisinart, let alone the economy. The Republicans, on the other hand, would know how to fix your tire, but they wouldn't bother to stop because they'd want to be on time for Ugly Pants Night at the country club.
Posted by Feyd Baron (Member # 1407) on :
Well, I figured this belonged here...
quote: The Difference Between Liberals, Conservatives and Texans
Question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?
Liberal's Answer:
Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun and what kind of message does this send to society and my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion. _________________________________________________________
This once more raises questions about what it is okay to joke about. The use of the word "tard" unsettles me, but I don't think the authors are really being mean-spirited. It reads more like cynical humor than vitriol. I suppose I'd have to see the teacher in action to really know if there is spite underlying this or not.
Is the stress-relief argument valid?
Posted by Taberah (Member # 4014) on :
On further reading, I'm slightly more unsettled. The use of profanity in particular bothers me, but I'm also seeing more than just exasperation.
Let me know what you think; if the link really bothers anyone I'll delete my previous post.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Taberah,
I'm offended, but don't delete the link. The rationale of stress reduction is tripe.
I worked for years in different settings - special ed classes, day treatment centers and group homes. Sometimes I did bring my stories home and tell them in private - with people who had heard enough stories to see the students/clents as full human beings. With rare exceptions - and changing lots of the identifying details - do I tell a story in public that makes someone look bad. Someone with whom I was put in a position of power and trust.
As near as I can tell, any real contact info for the authors of the site is absent. Doesn't that alone tell you something?
Think about one of the justifications they are using - I'll paraphrase. "I'm the one who has to deal with these ____, and because of that I have the right to say whatever I want to say about them. And since they don't know about this, they don't get to respond. Nor do their parents."
What does that sound like to you?
The foul language on the site is the least of its problems.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I am an evil horrible person.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ok, I got curious enough to follow the link.
This person has no business being a SEd teacher. Never mind how she reacts to stress. Or the fact that she tries really hard not to see her students outside of school. The two sentences that totally floored me:
quote: I still don't know why Malcolm wanted to be in the building so much.
Why on EARTH not? After all that, when things calmed down, why didn't she find out?? At the very least, for the practical reason that this might come up again.
quote: Despite this amazing effort, he didn't actually do any of the problems. Apparently after all that hard work making the booklet he didn't feel like putting anything in it.
Let me guess. She didn't reinforce his hard work, did she.
I have several friends who work in SEd, and they would be aghast. The stories they tell are sweet or, occasionally to vent frustration. None of this deliberate cruelty. And she thinks she doesn't make fun of her students??? Wow, talk about denial and delusion. If she wanted to tell funny stories, it would be so easy to do so minus the cruel sniping.
Just lovely, how she claims that any problems I have with the site or word choices are mine, not hers. No, of course none of the responsibility is hers.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
"This person has no business being a SEd teacher" Amen. They have no respect for the people they are working with.
That was the most offensive thing on this thread, to me.
Tards--"We wanted to make up a word [for the disabled students.]" What's wrong with "people," or "human beings?" Labels suck.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
This thread pre-dates me (just barely), but having had it brought to my attention, I though I'd comment on the nun joke:
quote:The butt of the joke, in this case, is the thug who doesn't "know what he's does." We laugh because of the play on words, but also because of an inner fear. The first nun says the thugs don't know what they are doing, in a moral sense. The second nun disagrees... by taking a totally different meaning of the phrase uttered by the first nun.
What some people may not know is that there is a VERY long history of anti-Catholicism that expresses itself by alleging that nuns are sex-fiends and that convents are house of prostitution.
"Get thee to a nunnery" is Shakespeare way of having Hamlet tell Ophelia she's a whore. There were a lot of books published in 19th century America about people "rescued" from sexual slavery in convents. Basically, it was the preferred way to publish pornography for a while.
So while the listener may not know this when laughing at the joke, be aware that it is part of a long, ugly tradition.
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Is the sequel any better on this count?![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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Dave Barry. I have got to buy one of his books.