This is topic How exactly does God help you? Or does he at all? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
When talking about the importance of religion, I hear lots of fellow religious folks describe things like turning to God for help with tough decisions or relying on God in a difficult situation. What does this mean? Did God actually send you signals regarding what to do? Did God actively help you in some way you could recognize?

Or, is it just you helping yourself but giving God credit for it (perhaps because your faith in Him gave you strength or something)?

Because, the truth is, I've never heard God talk to me, or send me secret signals, or something. At least, if He did I didn't know it. Nothing has ever happened to me that made me think, yup, this could only be God's doing.

So what I'm asking is, when people say these things, is it actually saying that God actively 'came down' and did something to make your life better for you, or is it just saying that your decision to believe in God (whether or not he truly exists)allowed you to feel or act better?

[ October 11, 2003, 02:32 AM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
I shall tell a personal story, if I may.

I was lying on an air mattress in my dad's apartment where we were on family "vacation," which was really just a cover up for my parents's finalizing their divorce. I was listening to my mom crying on the other side of the room but trying to hide it so she wouldn't wake us up.

I decided that life was pointless. I was feeling a hurt and an emptiness and a betrayal that I couldn't comprehend. This was worse than haaving a loved one die because my dad was leaving us of his own free will and I just couldn't comprehend how any of this was fair. I'm not exaggerating when I describe this as the lowest point in my life.

I said a prayer, like I was accustomed to do, but it wasn't a prayer of great faith or fervency. It was basically an angry cry to God. I told him that I couldn't handle this situation.

What I received in answer to this prayer was a feeling of utter and complete peace. I don't mean my troubles were gone or my grief was overwhelmed or forgotten, I only mean that I was able to fully comprehend every facet of my emotions and still be at peace. I know it was the Spirit acting from the outside of my own troubled emotions.

I later read in John 14:27 these words: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.." and I knew exactly what this peace was. The peace of God is unlike anything the world offers us. It doesn't drown out, it doesn't over-stimulate, it doesn't offer false hope. It is a feeling of calm and, I think I'd say wisdom, that calms our mortal hearts. I also believe that when the angels sang at Christ's birth of "Peace on Earth, good will to men," this is what they meant. Christ did not come to end the wars and stop the sadness. Rather, he came to transcend and to combine our worse pains with our greatest joys in one all-knowing sense of security and peace.

This is how I know God is real. And I know that I can ask Him at any time to help me out of this mire that is human existence. And that is more important than any earthly situation I can fathom.
 

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Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
 
Very good questions.

When you ask God for help, he will help as long as it's not sinful.

You might not recognize his help at first, but he always helps when it matters.

This is very important. You shouldn't ask God to help you just because you don't want to do a certain task that you are capable of doing yourself.

When something is out of your control, that's when God always helps (If you have faith).

Does that answer your question Tresopax?
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Well as an example of something that is either God are a really huge coincidence (and I think is the former ) I get to tell a story! A know a friend who was having trouble making ends meet, and had decide if he should give tithing. His car insurance was exactly the same as his tithing at $350 dollars and he had to choose which to pay. He finally decided on tithing. The next Saturday an older friend calls him to her house and insists that she felt the need to give him money (she felt the Lord needed her to give him money). She handed over an envlope with exactly $350 dollars in it without knowing anything about his situation, making him able to keep up on his payments. I like that story.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
 
So...the implication is that God wanted him to pay his car insurance instead of giving Him the tithe?
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
God helps me by giving commandments and teaching-- through scripture, through prophets, through people I know.

Obedience to His laws brings happiness. While He may choose to bless you with material wealth, with health, or whatever, for obedience, every one of those blessings can be taken away. But the peace that comes from being obedient, He will never take away.
 

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Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
 
The issue Tres raises is a large part of why I don't believe anymore.
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 

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When you ask God for help, he will help

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Coming in late to the conversation, as usual, I have to say that the only "real", measurable, help that God could give someone is the peace of faith.

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Do you really mean that? I mean, God is omnipotent, right? Couldn't he give you a real, measurable pile of money if he wanted to?
 

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Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
 
Hey, I'm willing! Do I have to give God my address?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Well, someone asked earlier if our blessings depended upon the amount that we asked for them. I'm here to say that...in a way, they do. In the Bible it says "knock, seek, ask" and THEN it shall be given unto you. This isn't to say that we should have praying marathons or say "I pray more than you, so why am I not happier?" It's not that at all. God is omnipotent Tres. I firmly believe that. In this case, don't you think He already knows what we need? Of course he does.

The point is, He's not as quick to help a)those people that don't acknowledge His hand in their lives, b)those that ask with a skeptical mindset or thoughts of "let's see if this works cause if it does, THEN I'll believe," or c)those that don't ask at all. This is not to say that he loves anyone the less for any of these reasons. He just wants us to admit that we need help. That He is God, and we're imperfect.

I know that God has perfect timing as well. I know that even if we ask Him for something in the humblest of ways, truly believing that He has power to help us, He STILL might not help us at the moment. I've seen too many things in my own life fall into place too many times for it to be something I've done. You know why I know it wasn't me? Because they didn't fall into place the way I had wanted them to, WHEN I had wanted them to. I remember asking and asking and nearly begging the Lord for something, almost telling him what to do because I was just SURE that it was the right thing for me...and not getting it. Later, everything fit together, in a way that I would have totally RUINED, had I gotten what I wanted when I asked for it.

Tres, when you ask if God should be able do anything for us, I say that He should and that he DOES. Our problem is sometimes that we're unbelieving, ungrateful, or just plain impatient. What's nice is that He doesn't love us any less for this, nor does He stop helping us.

[ October 11, 2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Theological questions are plaguing me this week. As I have no religion, but it is not as if I am an atheist that doesn't believe in anything.
I have heard it said that when you pray to God you are praying to yourself. I wonder if that is true.
i am praying and hoping and pleading and ordering anything that is out there to help.
I wonder if it works. It's so hard to tell at times... And quite confusing...
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Why does God only help those who ask? What about those who don't know about Him?

Why is it a virtue to believe in Him based solely on the words of a book, rather than evidence?

God is a confusing being.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
God has helped me be a good man by leading me to a good woman to marry.

He has blessed me with three good children, all of whom are healthy, extraordinary human beings.

In many ways, He is responsible for my current employment.

All of those things I may loose, one way or the other.

What does God give us, external to ourselves, that cannot be removed?

The answer that came to me was peace through obedience. I obey because God has taught me. I make the active choice to use my agency in ways that will help me become more like God. I obey because I love God, and I love His teachings.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
But what do you do when you do not believe in God technically, but feel like you are getting signs and signals anyway even as you insist that you don't believe in any specific religion as religion makes me think of binding.
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 

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Why does God only help those who ask?

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What about those who don't know about Him?

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Why is it a virtue to believe in Him based solely on the words of a book, rather than evidence?

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God is a confusing being.

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It isn't hard to attempt to know about him, if you really want to.

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I was thinking more of the hundreds of cultures that have come and gone, millions of people who have lived and died and never even had the foggiest idea that the Christian God existed. Couldn't He have just buried a Bible under a rock and made some guy look there? Why didn't He help them? Are Europeans and their offshoots the only important ones?
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
Well, if you want to go into Mormon theology, there is an answer to that very question.
 

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Posted by NooB (Member # 5797) on :
 
If Morbo believed in God, he wouldn't be such a dummy!
 

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Posted by poly_biosis (Member # 5773) on :
 
Aren't the ones that don't know about god, the ones that need more help? Where is god then?

Why didn't he create a world without suffering and destruction? I mean, he created evil in the first place, and then he tell us we have to chose our own path ? Why didn't he let us chose our paths between being Happy and at peace or being happier and being at total peace......??.....???.....????

Why do we have to take animals life for our food? Doesn't he loves animals like us? Why didn't he create us , so that we don't have any hunger and could just be?

Well he created us this way, we feel a little bit of everything, We cry, we are happy, we are angry, etc. etc. all those feelings. So maybe that is our purpose, to feel a variety of things and then die.
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 

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Aren't the ones that don't know about god, the ones that need more help? Where is god then?

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Why didn't he create a world without suffering and destruction?

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I mean, he created evil in the first place, and then he tell us we have to chose our own path ?

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quote:

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Why didn't he let us chose our paths between being Happy and at peace or being happier and being at total peace......??.....???.....????

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quote:

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Why do we have to take animals life for our food? Doesn't he loves animals like us? Why didn't he create us , so that we don't have any hunger and could just be?

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Well he created us this way, we feel a little bit of everything, We cry, we are happy, we are angry, etc. etc. all those feelings. So maybe that is our purpose, to feel a variety of things and then die.

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Or maybe we're here to make good decisions, take care of our bodies and prepare for something greater to come in the next life if we are faithful to those goals. At least, that's how I see it.



[ October 11, 2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Pat ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"God has helped me be a good man by leading me to a good woman to marry.

He has blessed me with three good children, all of whom are healthy, extraordinary human beings.

In many ways, He is responsible for my current employment."

Scott, there are Mormons on this site who have been divorced. There are Mormons on this site who have had unhealthy children, disabled children, even children who DIED. There are unemployed Mormons on this site at this very moment.

They believe in the same God you do, and presumably practice their faith in the same way.

What did they do wrong?

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Another way to look at it:
Is it not possible that you, being a good and perceptive man, met a good and compatible woman? That you, being a healthy and responsible and genetically lucky man, have raised three good and healthy children? And that you, by being hard-working and persistent, are currently employed?

I've had a number of good things happen to me in my life, several of which I worked very hard to achieve. With how many of them did God help?

[ October 11, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
I've had a couple of instances where I knew that God was halping. One is related to tithing. We had our car break down and my husband's glasses broke. But we got a ride to church and other places, and my husband "fixed" his glasses by cannabalizing my reading glasses. The point is that we chose to tithe faithfully and go without the other stuff. Before our bills came due, my dad just chose to send us $500 dollars. He hasn't done anything like that since I was in high school. It was pretty amazing.

Another was over the issue of forgiving my mother. She was a pretty horrible person, and still basically is. I tried over and over to forgive her, but my anger for her was still tearing me up, and I couldn't fix it. At some point, I just basically said, "Alright God, I can't do this. I have to forgive her, because she isn't worth it." That was it. Within seconds I felt totally different. I mean physically different. My body felt like it was inflating, which is weird and nothing like I've ever experienced. From that exact SECOND, I have felt no animosity at all toward my mom. When she calls, I am able to have a friendly conversation with her, and I don't even blink...I even enjoy it. I am able to calmly end the conversation when she is starting to get insulting, and I have no hard feelings. I really think that God took over when I admitted that I didn't have the power to do this thing that I knew I needed to do, as the Bible says essentially, God forgives you as you forgive others.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
So far, we've had four "miracles" specifically described, and they've each fallen into one of two types:

1) Someone tithes, despite the fact that they need the money for something the secular world considers more important, and a family member unexpectedly sends them enough money to cover the secular bill.

2) Someone is upset, turns the problem over to God, and feels better.
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
Tom --

Why does what Scott said take away from anyone else?

Oh I know... it's not fair for Scott to attribute his good fortune to God, when others don't have good fortune?

Although it sucked at the time, I was born into extreme poverty, both my parents died, and I spent most of my teenage years wondering why God didn't love me.

Looking back now, I understand I was being tested, conditioned and readied for a better life later in life.

The point is, that it's God's perogative in how he blesses people. Sometimes it's just not fair.

I'm just having problems understanding your logic.
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
And for goodness sakes, quit belittling someone else's sacred experiences. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't make it right for you to belittle others who had it work.

Would you be doing this if you would have gotten a witness from God? Why do you choose to do it now.

It's tacky. Knock it off.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I have problems understanding God's logic. What is the point of testing and conditioning?
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 

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I was thinking more of the hundreds of cultures that have come and gone, millions of people who have lived and died and never even had the foggiest idea that the Christian God existed. Couldn't He have just buried a Bible under a rock and made some guy look there? Why didn't He help them? Are Europeans and their offshoots the only important ones?

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This is where Christians fail. If we were doing our job spectacularly, then there would never be a culture that hadn't heard of God. I take partial responsibility for this. I'm learning how to share my faith and financially supporting missionaries. It's our job to witness, we who have been witnessed to by those who saw Christ.

Mack-

The point is that people who are never tested and conditioned never grow beyond childhood, mentally and spiritually. I SWEAR...people don't want to hear this, but I treasure so many horrible things that have happened to me, because I have learned so much about life while struggling through them. I'm becoming an adult, spiritually. What about you? Do you really think that you would be such a multi-dimensional and resilient person without the troubles you have pulled through?

Sorry. Double post.

[ October 11, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
Well, mack... it depends on what you think you'll be doing after this life.....
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I'd rather it be, maureen. If I could choose, I would choose the easier life. I don't care if whatever troubles "made me who I am." Who is this person that I call myself?

And I don't know what I'll be doing after this life, Pat. Really don't.

Not that I'm having a crisis of faith. Not at ALL.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"The point is, that it's God's perogative in how he blesses people. Sometimes it's just not fair."

But how can anyone, then, attribute any good fortune to God? If it's not fair, it's arbitrary -- and if it's arbitrary, how can it be remotely useful?

The net result is this: if you believe in a given God, you may or may NOT benefit. If you don't benefit in this life, you are expected to believe that your trials and tribulations are somehow better preparing you for improvements in the next life, implying that those people who DO have tangibly better lives need less improvement -- or something.

Scott argues that he knows God exists because he has wonderful children. My point is that there are people who do NOT have wonderful children who believe in the same God; why should THEY believe God exists? Moreover, there are people who do NOT believe in Scott's God who also have wonderful children; was God helping out on the sly?

[ October 11, 2003, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
I ask, Mack, because a lot of people believe that heaven is the end of everything, a place where you go to play a harp.

I believe that I'll continue to progress, so conditioning and trials are a natural part of the process. That's why someone who loses a baby, while it sucks to no end, will be able to take what they learn from it and apply it to their eternal progression.
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
Because they get blessed in OTHER ways, Tom. That's the point. God's smart...and, as much as you don't want to believe it, we're not. He's a much better judge of what people need, and what they can handle.

It's not like God blesses some, and not others. It just blesses people in different ways. And as far as promises go, I know gobs of people who tithe faithfully and never have worries about money, although they may not be rich. And often, when a Christian is doing poorly with money, you can ask, and they haven't been tithing. It's not relative. There are far too many cases of this happening to discount them.

[ October 11, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
What's odd is that I don't think I've ever doubted the existence of God.

But we're in a fight.
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
And I would point out Tom, that you're angry that you're not able to definitively know that God exists and search for any number of tiny little points to back up your theories -- to make you feel better about your life without God.

Which is pretty much what you accuse me of, neh?
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
Oh, and mack?

I'm putting my money on the big guy.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Wait...so all that crap I went through and what I'm just stuck with...they're blessings?
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
I hate to say it Mack, but there's a HUGE difference between believing in God and obeying him. Demons believe in God too. (Not that you qualify as one at all.)

[ October 11, 2003, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Because they get blessed in OTHER ways, Tom. That's the point."

Do you really think so? That there's some zero-sum game being played, some measurement that God uses to determine how much people get blessed?

How much money does a congenitally deformed man have to make before he's as "blessed" as an attractive blonde with four wonderful kids? How much good-hearted kindness does someone with a crippling disease need before he's as "blessed" as someone with a debilitating mental condition but who survived a horrible death in a train wreck?

See, I don't believe that people do get "blessed" in other ways; I've met people who are simultaneously rich, kind, gentle, intelligent, and handsome -- and as much as I'm secretly jealous of these people, it's not only petty but INACCURATE of me to assume that I've got something they DON'T have by virtue of being less rich, less kind-hearted, less gentle, less intelligent, and ugly.

God MAY be blessing the stupid, the maimed, the unlucky, and the unloved in some other way, but why? And how?

And if that's an unanswerable question, of what possible worth is God?

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As a side note, to Pat:
You're entirely right, of course, that this issue matters a great deal to me -- because it's part of what's at the core of my lack of belief. It just doesn't make any sense, and it's frankly frustrating to see people, some of whom have put far less work and far less thought into their faith than I have in what used to be mine, just smile and nod and say that, hey, these mysteries are just that: mysteries that don't make any sense. But that's okay, because God doesn't HAVE to make sense.

I reject that utterly. I think God DOES have to make sense -- because, at the end of the day, what He's doing is asking for our love and devotion. And if He wants that, the big guy's got to EARN it. Who the heck would love a human being who acted the way God presumably acts? Who could even stand to be around such a person?

Card put it best when he said that a Maker is part of what he makes. And if someone DID make us, part of that -- above and beyond any gratitude for the creation, for surely we had no input in that process -- requires that He take some responsibility for that action. As it stands, and as far as it's possible for any human to see, God is no better than young Alvin: promising food to the insects, then stomping an arbitrary number of them when they show up.

[ October 11, 2003, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
*grin*

Job obeyed God, too, and look what happened to him.

I know there's a difference between belief and obedience. Are you saying that what happened(s) is deserved because somehow I didn't obey?
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
Ah, but you're confusing your definition of a blessing with God's. What does God care for what people look like? Is being handsome a blessing? I don't really think so. Is a disease a blessing? It certainly is if causes you to have to trust in God for your survival everyday. Some people have never become so close to God as they did when they were "blessed" with being so sick that they slowed down long enough to read the Bible, which they had never done before.

I know, I know, you think that I'm just attributing whatever I want to God, to make myself feel better. But hey, that's biblical too.

Mack, read the rest of Job's story please. Because Job trusted God through the whole ordeal, he was blessed with twice what he had before.

[ October 11, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
You have a pretty warped sense of fairness, Tom. You sound like my kids.

What isn't fair to you doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, Tom.

One thing that I've noticed in all the conversations we have about the existence of God is that you won't allow people to have a personal relationship with God, yet you yearn for that same personal relationship.

Gotta attend to deadline...
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I think I like Job's wife's view better.
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
Mack, I'm not saying your trials came because you didn't obey. I'm definitely saying that blessings probably didn't come because you didn't obey. That's the way it works. Faith=salvation, obedience=blessings. That's really all anyone has to do.

The problem with Job's wife and kids...they weren't obedient. You can't always ride the coattails of someone else's obedience.

That story has so MANY great lessons!

[ October 11, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Maureen, I'm genuinely struggling to understand, here; what possible blessings automatically accrue to people with sucky lives? I do understand, believe me, that they may be "invisible" blessings, ones that only count in the afterlife or something -- but why? And what makes these people more deserving of the sucky life and the invisible blessing than those who are conspicuously blessed in this life?
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
How do you know their lives are 'sucky?'
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I followed all the "rules for obedience" in my faith and was a fairly fervent believer.

I kept thinking things would pick up.

I attended Mass. I was a eucharistic minister, retreat team leader. Attended the liturgy of the hours quite often. Studied theology.

I'm not sure how else I was supposed to obey.

Forgive my parents, maybe?

Well, now they're completely out of my life, making me an orphan with living biological parents.

What kind of God would put me through the crap of my childhood, give me a crappy illness, leave me completely without family, have me obey as I've been taught, but held back blessings for some arbitrary reason I can't figure out?

That's why we're in a fight. Sure, it's probably wrong in many people's eyes. Fine. But I've done what I can and here I struggle along. All I want is a family, and that's something I can never have.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Job's wife said, "Curse God and die," by the way.
 

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Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
 
Why can't you have a family?
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
The illusion of the "family" I grew up with is gone. My family is also physically removed from my life--I haven't heard from them in months. They honestly don't give a crap. And this is after years of work, of opening up and getting kicked in the teeth.

And I certainly won't have a family of my own.

I don't know if it's even family, but more parents. I'm not sure.

But what I want deep in my heart, what I cry about in the black of night, I can never have.
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
Just listen. And don't be so darn quick to dispute. Think about it.

1. God's idea of good is not always our idea of good. For him, good things are things that make you closer to him, or more faithful. Money doesn't always do this. In my experience, the only Christians who had more money than they needed were the ones who kept giving it away to people who actually needed it.

2. God knows what we need. I realize that I'm blessed with two kids that are hardly ever disobedient. But I really think that they are that way because God knows that my anger is barely controllable, and that I struggle everyday to be gentle with my kids, even though they deserve nothing less. I fully expect that as I get better control of my anger, my kids will begin to test me more often. He could test me here, but he knows that if I fail, I'm not the only one who will suffer.

Also, God also knows that I'm horrible with money. Therefore, I just make enough to barely cover the bills. Why? Although I'm obedient, if I received more money, he knows I would blow it. Also, the constant concern about how my next bill will be paid leads me to wait for God and trust that he'll care for me.

Here's the clincher.

IF HE DOESN'T help me pay my next bill, it's because he has some other plan that goes down another road. I will be tested and hopefully come out stronger in my faith as a result. So maybe I go to jail? Then I should witness to the people in jail. Get it? THAT'S A BLESSING! The reason it doesn't seem like one to you is because you do not think like God. No one does. But the stronger a Christian you become, the more you begin to understand him.

The biggest blessing I receive everyday is knowing that whatever happens, God is in control of the situation. And that is a privilege reserved for those who follow him. He does intervene in the lives of non-Christians at times, but only to fulfill some grand purpose. Basically, if you aren't obeying him, you are on your own. Your trials are just trials. Your "blessings" are just whatever thing happens to befall.

Just curious, would you consider finding a wallet full of cash a blessing, if the amount in the wallet just covered your bills?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"How do you know their lives are 'sucky?'"

If you don't permit some objective measurement of "quality of life," this whole "being helped by God" discussion is kind of pointless, don't you think?

Let's just agree that people who are happy, healthy, well-liked, wealthy, fertile, intelligent, generous, charismatic, and generally free from terrible misfortune lead "better" lives than those who are unhappy, unhealthy, disliked, poor, infertile, unintelligent, grasping, dull, and cursed, shall we?

---------

"So maybe I go to jail? Then I should witness to the people in jail. Get it? THAT'S A BLESSING! The reason it doesn't seem like one to you is because you do not think like God."

No. Not to put too fine an edge on it, the reason it doesn't seem like one to me is because I'm not wacky.

By the same logic, shattering your pelvis and being hospitalized for months is a blessing because you can witness to the nurses. Being stalked by a creepy, drooling guy with a blood-stained chainsaw is a blessing because he clearly needs to hear the Word. Falling into a gorge and being eaten by wolves is a blessing, because you would have gone home and sinned with your boyfriend if you had survived.

There are very few misfortunes that cannot be reworked into "blessings" under this system.

And yes, I recognize that this kind of optimism is a wonderful, beautiful thing; in fact, it's exactly one of the benefits of belief. But a God that treats the universe like a giant Rube Goldberg device -- containing pawns to be maimed and jailed for some ridiculously complicated "higher purpose" that He refuses to explain to anyone -- is, in my opinion, dangerous and untrustworthy. Why would you voluntarily worship such a being?

[ October 12, 2003, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
 
Mack,

If it's any consolation, God said that he is a father to the fatherless. In truth, he's my real father, too. (No, not by immaculate conception.)

You do realize that "curse God and die" was a suggestion, not a warning, right?
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 

quote:

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God knows what we need. I realize that I'm blessed with two kids that are hardly ever disobedient. But I really think that they are that way because God knows that my anger is barely controllable, and that I struggle everyday to be gentle with my kids, even though they deserve nothing less.

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would you consider finding a wallet full of cash a blessing, if the amount in the wallet just covered your bills?

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God said that he is a father to the fatherless.

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The next time you have the urge to tell someone they've been blessed by God, or announce that YOU'VE been blessed in some way, stop for a moment and consider that what you're considering a blessing might in fact be a trial. Or vice versa:

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Scott argues that he knows God exists because he has wonderful children.

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All of those things I may loose, one way or the other.

What does God give us, external to ourselves, that cannot be removed?

The answer that came to me was peace through obedience. I obey because God has taught me. . .

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Dear God, I know, I know...we're the chosen people. But once in a while, can't you choose somebody else!

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And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.

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And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.

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For Mormons at least it is pretty clear: God does not act in the lives of men unless men initiate the action through an exercise of faith. In fact, the way that God enacts any part of his plans on earth is through the faith of those who live here.

So the question then is: What is faith? I think that the definition is a bit difficult to pin down. I think that faith is the impetus for action and that it must be based on true principles.

Any action which a person performs first requires faith that it may be performed and second requires a basis in true principles. When I turn on a light it is because I believe and hope that the light will come on. However, faith is not only hope or belief for if not for the physical laws underlying the use of electricity all of my hope and belief would be meaningless and it would hence not be faith.

To me all actions which we may perform all rely on the same principle of faith. The only difference between "miracles" and cotidian actions such as turning on a light is the understanding of the principles involved.
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
I will start this by saying I am an atheist, with a catholic upbringing.

If God is all powerful, why does Jesus mean anything to him or us? I have always heard that Jesus was God's *ONLY* son. Now if he were all powerful, how could he have ONLY ONE of anything? Also, it is often said that without Jesus, no one could get into heaven, that he takes our sins and ... does something with them. Why is this? Because God chose it to be so. All of the reasons we are given to love god, require one to believe that he is not all powerful.

Then we can get into the un-conditional love statement. I am not sure if that is just a catholic thing or what, but if his love were truly unconditional, there would be no hell.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Rob- no-- just that God is unwilling to save us in another manner.

But since I don't believe God is omnipotent in the classical sense, no big deal.
 

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Posted by kerinin (Member # 4860) on :
 
this is sort of off topic, but there was a post about this earlier and nobody picked up on it. i find the adam and eve - free will explanation put fourth by christianity to be incredibly flawwed in that it contradicts the idea of god as the creator.

here's the problem, its generally assumed that we were created with the ability to choose for ourselves between good and evil, and as such we are held accountable for our actions, justifying being damned to hell for eternity if we choose to deny god (oversimplified i know). the question raised earlier was why did god create a world with evil and unhappiness in it, and the typical christian response to that question is that it is humanity which has created this unhappiness; people who do not live by god's laws create misery and pain for the rest of the world, but god is innocent and only wants us to love each other.

this is a wonderful little set up for motivating people to behave according to a given set of ethics; you tell them that they are responsible for their actions and god wants them to behave in a particular way, but this whole thing is based on a slight oversight; god supposedly created us. what this means, is that if humans have a tendancy to do bad things, if humans have the desire to sin, that tendancy was also created by god. if god created everything, he is responsible for everything, he intended everything. i'm not arguing predetermination here (although it could be developed from the same argument), but rather that in a universe which has been created by a single being external to that being, you can't really assign responsibility to anyone in that universe; they are what they were created to be.

in order for free will to truly exist, god cannot be omnipotent. i'm not arguing that our ability to choose infringes on god's power; this argument can be easily refuted by saying that god has simply chosen not to control but still has the ability, rather i'm pointing out that free will requires the existence of good and evil outside of god himself, in other words it requires god to be limited by the definition of good and evil. to say that we have free will is basically to say that we have an inherent ability to understand what is right and wrong, and we can choose between those two. if god created the definition of good and evil and also created us, then in a deterministic universe he must be held responsible for our actions (and in an indeterministic universe god cannot be said to be omnipotent). the only way to truly reconcile free will is to state the god is bound by what is right an wrong, and he created us with the ability to understand this.

i've always considered the definition of good an evil to be a facinating subject, if we assume that god created everything, and that god decides what's right and wrong, then to state that god is good and virtuous and perfect doesn't really have any meaning, you're just saying that god is god. morality is one of those things that when you start dissecting it theoretically tends to fall apart in your hands. it's quite simple to observe why it's nice that people have morals, but it's incredibly difficult to rigorously justify having them.

[ October 13, 2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: kerinin ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Mack -

I do understand. I spent a great deal of the last five years wondering what I'd done that the Lord had forgotten me. I vascillated between thinking I was being tortured or else thinking I was just... forgotten. There was one decision that I made where I did exactly what I wanted, and I actively ignored the dread feeling that I was doing something not morally wrong, but the wrong decision for my life. I did it anyway. Did it invalidate all the other blessings for my life? It sure as heck seemed (seems) like it.

Mack, I'm more or less an orphan as well. My mother really is gone, and my dad has had the fortune to marry socially-skilled, compassionate women who take of the emotional and familial needs of the their children, which means he's never had to do it. However, the current arrangement doesn't cover me, and my dad's role has always been the provide-and-show-up-for-award-shows type, and that works for him. He doesn't want to change. The provide thing doesn't apply, and the award shows aren't exactly thick on the ground. I'm an orphan.

I don't think the Lord did that to me. I think it's just life. It's just part of this crappy life, and there's no promises made that anything will be great. Any blessing I have is gravy.

For me, I believe because of many things, but most importantly because of the scriptures. I can tell the difference in me when I read and follow them, and I can feel the peace inside. I've had a few occasions where my heart has been twisted and choatic until I've had a blessing, and then it was calmed. I've had a few of the tithing-type miracles Tom was talking about, but mostly... mostly it's because of peace and prayers answered and the effects of reading the Book of Mormon.

[ October 13, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
What I've realized thus far is this: the less I go to church, the less I read any scripture, the more peaceful and straightened out my life gets.

So what do I do about that?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"What isn't fair to you doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, Tom."

You know, re-reading this thread, this line -- which I overlooked before -- kind of stood out for me.

I want to know why it DOESN'T matter. Why should anyone be expected to follow a being who does not believe that fairness to individuals is worthy of consideration?
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

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I thought God was benevolent

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It depends what you mean by 'benevolent.' I think God is GOOD. I don't think He's necessarily Nice.

This brings to mind a conversation from 'The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.' The Pevensies are at the beavers' house, and have just been told that they'll have to go meet Aslan. Susan asks whether or not Aslan is safe, and Mr. Beaver replies, a little haughtily, that no, he is not.

"He's a wild lion, you understand."

I think that's how Mr. Beaver puts it.

I think God requires us to go through terrible, awful, difficult things. He is not nice, or safe.
But I've found that as terribly difficult as life can be, obedience to God's commandments brings peace no matter what straits I'm placed in.
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 
Tom --
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Susan asks whether or not Aslan is safe, and Mr. Beaver replies, a little haughtily, that no, he is not. 'He's a wild lion, you understand.'"

This is one of the things I always felt kind of disappointed about in the Narnia books. Everyone always says Aslan is "wild," but -- unlike the Christian God -- he's pretty consistent in his behavior, only frightening until you get to know him, and (at least for the major characters) behaves remarkably like a "nice" lion.

Admittedly, he DOESN'T turn up on behalf of the minor characters -- red shirts are allowed to die all the time -- but he's hardly the dangerous and unpredictable "wild lion" that you might expect from all the warnings.

-------

Pat, all headbanging aside, why shouldn't people judge God based on perceived fairness? Surely He doesn't need the PR help; He's responsible for His own image.

Heck, by what other yardstick is it even POSSIBLE to judge God? And if we can't judge God, why should we even try to have a relationship with such an inscrutable and unknowable entity?

[ October 13, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

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he's pretty consistent in his behavior, only frightening until you get to know him, and (at least for the major characters) behaves remarkably like a "nice" lion.

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You said it, not me.



(Psst-- you may want to re-read the beginning of Prince Caspian, Tom. Where Aslan is not nice at all to the Pevensies.)

[ October 13, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"you may want to re-read the beginning of Prince Caspian, Tom. Where Aslan is not nice at all to the Pevensies"

Except that Aslan IS pretty nice to them, when you think about it; he's puckish in a Dobby of Harry Potter sense, not nasty in a smiting-the-heathens sense. I'm sure that part of it has to do with the children's book nature of the allegory, but still....

And yes, I'd imagine that the Christian God would like to PRETEND that He's only dangerous until you get to know him, but I'm pretty sure that Christians are just as statistically likely as anyone else to die of cancer and plane crashes.
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 

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Pat, all headbanging aside, why shouldn't people judge God based on perceived fairness? Surely He doesn't need the PR help; He's responsible for His own image.
Heck, by what other yardstick is it even POSSIBLE to judge God? And if we can't judge God, why should we even try to have a relationship with such an inscrutable and unknowable entity?

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I'm pretty sure that Christians are just as statistically likely as anyone else to die of cancer and plane crashes.

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Scott, I can certainly recognize that God can't or won't prevent ALL misfortune -- but you'd think that there would be a statistically measurable difference between people who worship the right God who, in a moment of crisis, cry out in prayer and are saved from being maimed by a combine and those who don't. Right?

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if what God chooses to do on your behalf is not only arbitrary but outright capricious, can that be considered HELPFUL?

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How is it possible, then, for anyone who has had a family member come through for them after a tithing to argue that this is evidence of God's blessing, when -- as kat points out -- God clearly does not come through on a majority of similar occasions? Do these people believe that they are more deserving of God's blessing in this regard than others in an identical situation?

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It's not "Thank you sir, might I have another?"

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
And, if I've learned correctly, a tithe doesn't have to be just money. It can also be a sacrifice of goods, work or time.
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 
It wasn't meant as a slight Tom, it was a genuine explanation of what I have gathered of your view of God.

Listen, Tom. No one respects you and your beliefs more than I. I've defended you in front of other Mormons on several occassions. You came asking, and I explained.

It looks like Jacare and kat are doing a good job keeping you entertained now, so I'll back off.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"In essence, it sounds like you're trying to ask if you can buy a blessing."

Nope. Frankly, I'm assuming that you CAN'T. But there are people on this very thread who have said that God has helped them by covering the cost of a tithe when they really needed it. I'm wondering why, if this is so common that fully half of the Mormons posting here claim to have experienced it, it isn't CONSISTENT.

--------

"It wasn't meant as a slight Tom, it was a genuine explanation of what I have gathered of your view of God."

That genuinely depresses me, Pat. I had assumed -- obviously incorrectly -- that you understood I was not looking for a cute, cuddy genie. Rather, I'm looking for a God that doesn't appear dangerously insane.
 

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Posted by Head Ditch Digger (Member # 5085) on :
 
Tom, you need to understand tha God that most Mormons see.

First we believe God created our spiritual bodies, but he did not create our intelligences. That has existed from the beginning of time. In other words, you were you and will be you forever. So God did not create that part of you that makes you who you are.

Second, God lives in infinity. His goal is to get as many of his children back to him, better than they were when they left. When I went to school I had to pay for tuition and books but not my room and board. My father could have easily paid for the wholle experience. But, he knew that something that I am willing to pay for, I will cherish that much more. The same with our father in heaven. If we choose to follow him and pay the prices that life throws at us, how much more are we going to gain in experience and knowledge. Do you appreciate a gift at christmas as much as something you had to work ahard to acheive.

I know a family own busines that is failing in the third generation. The first generation struggled and got the business running. The second generatioon having witnessed first hand the struggle countinued the growth. The third generation always had money and never learned how much work was required to just to stay at status-quo.

Life is hard and we all have our baggage. Some would rather say I wish I had his life, than make tha most of their own. It is a fatalistic view, because the grass is always greener.

Thirdly, we do not believe everyone must reach the same level of perfection to gain heaven. As in the parrable of the talents. Not everyone was given the same starting point or required to be at the same ending point to acheive the reward. But the one who did nothing with what was given him, lost all.

We believe this life is a test and everyone has their own burdens. Some it is the burden of wealth, some their evironment and others their physical bodies. Who are we to say which is worse. All that God requires is that we improve on our lot in life and follow his teachings.

Remember to God our life span is an exretmly minute time period.

I could go on to point out why we believe God to be bound by certain "natural laws", but that requires alot of back ground which I would happily send two suit clad young men to your house to explain.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*thinks*

I think the reason, when asked about the blessings of tithing, people come up with money-appearing stories (and I do have my own) is because those are easier to understand and tangible example of a blessings.

Paying tithing is a very tangible exhibition of obedience - you do or you don't. However, neither the writing of the check or the money appearing are really the point of tithing. Tithing is a matter of willing sacrifice and placing the Lord above your own desires, and the spiritual blessings of tithing - well, they are many, but at least for me, one of the blessings is a constant reminder that I'm not the center of the universe and that every great work requires exactly that - work. Since that's so personal, though, and since not everyone gets the same thing out of it, it's a less scintilating story than the (true) money-appearing yarn.

[ October 13, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 

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Rather, I'm looking for a God that doesn't appear dangerously insane.

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"Which is not to say that we won't miss our loved ones terribly, but in general death is no more a tragedy than growing up..."

And yet I often hear people say that God cured their cancer. Why?

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And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild food, and that not by the hand of an enemy.

44 And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me.

45 Thou shalt live together in love, insomuch that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die, and more especially for those that have not hope of a glorious resurrection.

46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;

47 And they that die not in me, wo unto them, for their death is bitter.

48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.

49 He who hath faith to see shall see.

50 He who hath faith to hear shall hear.

51 The lame who hath faith to leap shall leap.

52 And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have power to become my sons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt bear their infirmities.

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D&C 42: 48
48 And again, it shall come to pass that he that hath faith in me to be healed, and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.

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Oddly, this is exactly what people do ALL THE TIME. No one believes in a God they can't stand, or who is incompatible with their own beliefs.

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No one believes in a God they can't stand, or who is incompatible with their own beliefs.

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This is the tricky bit, Jacare. So those people who were healed of their cancers were not "appointed unto death," but the ones who weren't WERE? The problem with this, from the standpoint of a skeptic, is that it's awfully convenient.

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A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

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And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.

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No one believes in a God they can't stand, or who is incompatible with their own beliefs

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And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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it's worth noting that USUALLY that person is depicted as giving in when he finally receives an unequivocal answer from God. In my experience, this kind of communication is actually pretty rare.

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Except that they're inconsistent blessings. It's not God's fault that Sally gets sick, perhaps -- but surely it's His fault that He chose not to heal her when she, as a believer, desperately asked? Why, when she asks, doesn't He just TELL Her it suits His plans for her to die?

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This is the big problem I have with the whole thing, Jacare. Even Mormons believe that their God has the power to clear up this misunderstanding right now.

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So how may we learn what God is really like? The only way which we may make any headway at all is by 1) Trying to find out through experiences with God and 2) Trying to found out by others' experiences with God. Number 2 we must realize is always filtered through another's hopes, upbringing, culture, perceptions etc. This is why number 1 is absolutely vital and anything else is a poor substitute. And that is also precisely why in the last days peace wil reign- there will be no misunderstanding about who God is or what he requires.

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It's not that hard to send an unequivocal message.

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I don't think God has to change OR to change Men in order to, say, write a really long message of fire in the sky that can't be erased and doesn't move with the wind. It's not that hard to send an unequivocal message.

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Jacare, your rejection of number 2 is precisely why number 1 must also be rejected [please note that I am speaking philosophically - I have no wish to pass judgment on your beliefs or in any way persuade you to abandon them. I only wish to explain why I do not find your arguments persuasive.] If we have what we believe are experiences with God, they are still filtered. The only difference is that they are filtered through our own hopes, upbringing, culture, perceptions, etc. All understanding is subjective.

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Out of interest, what kind of dynamic relationship did you have with God before you believed in Him?

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If we have what we believe are experiences with God, they are still filtered.

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Jacare, why should we trust our own experiences? We understand our experiences through our perceptions, which can change at any time for any number of reasons. I don't think that experience (mine or others) can ever be a valid justification for belief.

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If you can't trust your own experiences then you can trust absolutely nothing. In that case you become paralyzed by a philosophical quandry. All of the decisions anyone makes on a daily basis are based entirely on previous experience and genetics. There is nothing more.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Mrs.M, people who repeatedly ignore the incontrovertible evidence of their senses are called insane. If I whack you upside the nose with a shoe and you still honestly professed doubt in its existence, it would be time for a neurological exam, neh?

Sopwith, I agree, actually. But that's not something I can show as tangible evidence to anyone else.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
It's someone wanting an empirical answer to the old question: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I can't take you to God. I'm trying to find my own way and if you follow with me, you may find yourself as lost as I am.

I can point in the general direction, though (scriptures) and tell you to follow your heart.

When your destination isn't marked on a map, but you still must arrive there, you set out on the most meaningful adventure. You don't find enlightenment, you arrive at it.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
From Tom:

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Pat, all headbanging aside, why shouldn't people judge God based on perceived fairness? Surely He doesn't need the PR help; He's responsible for His own image.

Heck, by what other yardstick is it even POSSIBLE to judge God? And if we can't judge God, why should we even try to have a relationship with such an inscrutable and unknowable entity?

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God is no respecter of persons. It's his world, his plan, his salvation. He gave you life, an opportunity to return to live with him, and the free agency to make it so. If you don't agree on his rule of the game, then it's too bad for you.

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Tom's objections are starting to look a lot like the ones I had when I decided to leave the Church. This does not surprise me.

The issue at hand is one of judging God.

The Bible teaches us that we should worship God because he is worthy. Is it accurate to say that anyone who truly worships God believes him to be worthy of praise?

And if so, does that not suggest that the worshipper has judged God to be worthy? And if this judgment of God is not necessary to worship Him, how then can you come to have a relationship with Him?

A relationship involves, first, presence of at least two entities. An active relationship involves interaction. Any sufficiently complicated relationship between two intelligent parties involves communication.

What I like to point out is that each individual necessarily must have their personal definition of what it means to be "worthy", and therefore the real difference between the man who accepts the Judeo Christian God and His laws and the man who rejects Him is that the expectations for one relationship were met while the expectations for the other were not.

The difference, in the end, is one of expectations.

Take Mack for example, who is currently experiencing what may or may not be a crisis of faith, depending on her definition.

It seems to me that Mack's bitterness toward God (forgive me if you would not describe it like this Mack) comes from the same place all bitterness comes from: unmet or unrealistic expectations. Mack obviously feels that having willingly performed those things she was asked to do and purposefully avoiding those things she was asked not to do--all the while never losing her faith in Christ in spite of the nearly unbearable situations that she has had to endure--that at minumum her relationship with God might afford her some kind of peace or comfort. She's looking for the tradeoff in the relationship, just like any relationship.

Of course, I think that EVERYONE shops--though not necessarily at Target --for God in their own way. True, you may believe in God without ever having searched for one of a different name, but there had to be some point in your life where you decided to "buy" the one you have. Some posts in this very thread describe what I'm talking about. "I believe in God because <insert sale data here>".

And I know that could sound really unfeeling if you chose to interpret it that way, but that is not the way in which it is intended.

Every testimony carries with it a story of fulfilled expectation. Every time someone says I believe in God <because>, it is a story of fulfillied expectation.

By this I'm trying to show that Judgment is a necessary part of any meaningful relationship. Which is to answer the question "Who are we to jugde God?" very simply:

We are the ones with whom you say God wants a relationship.

And I would also suggest, like Tom, that any being that gave to humanity a choice between realationship without expectations or two-way communication and damnation would have to be dangerously insane.

The important question that arises from all of this is: which expectations of God are fair?
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 

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If you can't trust your own experiences then you can trust absolutely nothing.

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In that case you become paralyzed by a philosophical quandary.

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I haven’t.

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Mrs.M, people who repeatedly ignore the incontrovertible evidence of their senses are called insane. If I whack you upside the nose with a shoe and you still honestly professed doubt in its existence, it would be time for a neurological exam, neh?

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Ah, the sense argument. Okay. Dr.M is color-blind. His senses tell him that my red shirt is green. I am not color-blind. I tell him that the shirt is red and he repeatedly ignores the incontrovertible evidence of his senses. I am fairly certain that he is not insane. Your argument presupposes that senses are infallible. I disagree.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Keeping in mind that the senses themselves are processed through subjective means, as well.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 

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it is a story of fulfillied expectation

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senses themselves are processed through subjective means

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Exactly. This is God's great trick. The whole, let's wrap up these spirits in physical matter and temporal time and let the ensuing pain and tensions, sorrows and joys engrave good (or bad) into their minds and onto their souls thing.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Good point, Zal.

Of course many people believe in God because they feel God went BEYOND their expectations, but can you at least concede that everyone has a bare minimum of expectations that must be met in order for their relationship with God to continue?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Ok, I agree that the senses are not infallible, and are subjective.

But that's part of the problem. Then there is NO evidence -- flaming letters across the sky included -- that cannot be explained away.

Anything that CAN be absolutely undeniable (and in our day and age, we are such skeptics that there may be no such thing) would take away free choice; and anything short of that can be explained away.

Good thing my belief isn't based on flaming sky writing.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

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No, you can have absolute trust in nothing. Since perceptions of experiences are by their nature subjective, they give you probability rather than absolutes.

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"In that case you become paralyzed by a philosophical quandary."

I haven't.

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but can you at least concede that everyone has a bare minimum of expectations that must be met in order for their relationship with God to continue?

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Of course. But when you believe that (at least the reasons for) those expectations (the tiny driving force) come from God and from the fact that all individuals here knew him and were affected by him and already had a relationship with him previous to this existence, you have a rather nice, tidy out. Of course, we Mormons are full of those.

I should add that, by nature, my sympathies lie much more with the rational unbeliever than the believer who believes in a God I don't recognize (although I do respect the act of that belief). What I mean by that is that I can understand the whole thing of doubting the subjective experiences of others.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"But when you believe that (at least the reasons for) those expectations (the tiny driving force) come from God and from the fact that all individuals here knew him and were affected by him and already had a relationship with him previous to this existence, you have a rather nice, tidy out."

So, just to clarify: it's currently God's plan that Mac, Caleb, and I are leaning towards thinking He doesn't exist, based on a conversation we had with Him before we were born?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
God's plan that you're leaning towards no? No, because that would invalidate agency. God's plan that you're questioning? Yes.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Any thoughts as to why WE deserve the special treatment, and you guys just get the run-of-the-mill revelatory stuff?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Why do you think you're getting special treatment? Just because I'm not wondering at the moment doesn't haven't wondered in the past, and that I won't wonder in the future. Pat's talked about the struggles he went through, and I'm 100% certain Zal has wondered and struggled on his own.

[ October 13, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 

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So, just to clarify: it's currently God's plan that Mac, Caleb, and I are leaning towards thinking He doesn't exist, based on a conversation we had with Him before we were born?

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What expectations are fair when it comes to asking God to meet that trust?

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You can't go shopping for a God. You can't go to Target and find one that suits your fancy.

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You want God to come and explain why rotten things happen in life. And I would say, if you apply the effort, you can get that explanation. If you are teachable, if you give the word a chance to make sense, and after that give those explanations to grow in your heart a little bit... I promise you that you'll get those explanations. At least, that's what I pray for for you on a pretty much nightly basis.

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Absolute proof of His existence -- especially to those who do not already believe -- damages free will

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unmet or unrealistic expectations

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Mack obviously feels that having willingly performed those things she was asked to do and purposefully avoiding those things she was asked not to do--all the while never losing her faith in Christ in spite of the nearly unbearable situations that she has had to endure--that at minumum her relationship with God might afford her some kind of peace or comfort.

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Good thing my belief isn't based on flaming sky writing.

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You didn't get the memo?

See, what I don't get was that I wasn't just a cookie cutter Catholic, or even Christian for that matter. I struggled to educate myself in my faith, struggled to attend mass and other religious events. I opened myself to the voice of God.

I even did things I didn't want to do, like offer the olive branch to my parents at least on three occasions. I got badly burned each time, but we're supposed to not judge and forgive, right?

I didn't get any of the comfort. Instead, I got illness and loneliness. Maybe it's because God isn't in my life?

*shrug*

But it makes me figure, either God isn't paying attention and doesn't care, or I did something pretty bad to deserve this.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Mack I know the feeling. Like you've been forgotten? That God can't NOT know what is going on, and since I'm still miserable and it isn't fixed, then I must be forgotten.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
God doesn't forget.

So either he doesn't care or he means for this all to happen.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Or maybe it's just part of life.

This was big for me, because I was so thrown when my mother died. Some people tried to comfort me by saying it was all part of a plan, but I didn't appreciate that because that means the Lord killed my mother on purpose. I simply don't believe it. All that leaves, however, is that its just part of life. That sucks.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
So why do we live? To slog through this life and find the greater glory after death? But that's ONLY if you followed God's rules and his plan, but you had no idea if you did or didn't and have no way to judge until you're already dead.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
That's why I like the message in a book called The Amber Spyglass. It's message was that life on earth matters more than looking for an after life.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Right. But where is the matter part for some of us?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Heck, I don't know. I'm living for the Coen brothers movies. [/flippant because hard to answer question]

*rests head on desk* Actually mack, now I'm depressed.

Added: Fortunately, I need to go shopping to attend a formal wedding.

[ October 13, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
oops
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Mack, I don't believe that faith necessarily makes life peaceful OR comfortable. It can help one find peace when life is hard -- as it often is -- and draw on comfort that comes of feeling His love.

I do not know why He has given you the challenges He has. But I know he does care. And I don't believe you "did something pretty bad to deserve this" either.

When I feel I am being challenged more than I can bear, I try to remember that I am unrefined silver in His hands.

quote:

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There was a group of women in Yerushalayim that met every week to learn together. While studying the book of Malachi, chapter three, they came across verse three, which says: "He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver." This verse puzzled the women and they wondered how this statement applied to the character and nature of G-d. One of the women offered to find out more about the process of refining silver, and to get back to the group at their next class.

The following week, the woman called up a silversmith and made an appointment to watch him while at work. She didn't mention anything about the reason for her interest, beyond her curiosity about the process of refining silver.

As she watched the silversmith work, he held a piece of silver over the fire and let it heat up. He explained that in refining silver, one needed to hold the silver in the middle of the fire, where the flames were the hottest, so as to burn away all the impurities. The woman thought about G-d holding us in such a hot spot, then she thought again about the verse, "He sits as a refiner and purifier of silver."

She asked the silversmith if it was true that he had to sit there in front of the fire the entire time the silver was being refined. The man answered yes, that not only did he have to sit there holding the silver, but also he had to keep his eyes on it the entire time it was in the fire. If the silver were left even a moment too long in the flames, it would be destroyed.

The woman was silent for a moment. Then she asked the silversmith, "But how do you know when the silver is fully refined?" He smiled at her and answered, "Oh, that's easy - when I see my image in it."

If today you are feeling the heat of the fire, remember that you are in G-d's hand, He has His eye on you, and He will keep holding you and watching you until He sees His image in you.

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Being alive hurts, often. But I believe that all the pain has a purpose.

Mack, I am sorry for your pain, and I know that this is not much of an answer. But it helps me, sometimes.

Oh! And I do not mean to imply that anyone who is not "feeling the fire" right now has reached perfection. Just that He does not think they need that particular method right now, for whatever reason(s).
 

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Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
 
Annie, that was beautiful

We pray that everything in life may happen according to God's will. I think we should never turn this into: All things that happen are God's will. God doesn't do things to you, nor to punish you nor to reward you. Our deeds are our own doing, and yes if we act following the Word we'll be blessed but that's not the same as God directly giving us rewards.
In the past, our ancestors have chosen to do wrong again and again. It's our task to try to do better. It's our own free will to make that happen.
Sure, but how can you manage if you are in a war or in another desparate situation, or constantly in pain?

The secret is, that God will ease the pain if you'll only let him. Just like Annie said. It doesn't solve the situation but it does change the way you experience it. And that's what counts.

I know this sounds too easy, I am comfortable in a safe country. Still, I have come to believe that no matter what happens, as long as there is love in the world you can always feel well despite everything.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
That is actually a cool story.
Sometimes you have to create the joy and meaning in your own life if you cannot believe in God.
Like my threads, or a life's work.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
God will ease the pain only if you let him?
 

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Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
 
Yep.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Is there a secret decoder ring for how to do that properly?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

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God will ease the pain only if you let him?

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God will ease the pain only if you let him?

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And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another?s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life?

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

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Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one? even as we are one:

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But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

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For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

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And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

9 And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

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Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

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And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free.

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I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions

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And whosoever among you are sick, and have not faith to be healed, but believe, shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs and mild cfood, and that not by the hand of an enemy...
And they who have not faith to do these things, but believe in me, have power to become my sons; and inasmuch as they break not my laws thou shalt bear their infirmities

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Reading the scriptures for me is like the experience I have heard people talk of in talking mood drugs. It takes a while to take hold, and you need to take it everyday to keep the levels up in the blood, but when done everyday, the world is brighter, you're more at peace, and moods are brighter. It hasn't worked with anything else, and I can feel the difference of when I study and when I don't. That can't be coming from me, because for a long time, I refused to do it on the vague, rebellious grounds of WANTING it to come only from me. I can't do it on my own. There has to be something more to it.

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7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Mack, I'm going to have to rely on your knowledge of me that I'd never be flippant in saying what I'm about to say, and that I care about you, and that I'm not setting myself up as knowing everything.

It only works for me with the Book of Mormon. All scripture is worthwhile, but the Book of Mormon is just power. Reading it, you can read how it is the answers to the prayers of dozens of prophets, and that it was given to us at this time of history because we'd need it. There are many reasons the Lord saved it for this time, and one of them is that we'd need it.

I wish I could give another explanation, but my only honest suggestion is to try that.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I know what I'm like and what happens to me when I'm left to my own devices. I can't lift myself out of hardly anything."

Whereas I do okay. Is that part of the difference, perhaps?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That you may have less need for God because you can lift yourself out fine?

Maybe that's your challenge. I mean, some people are tried by wealth, and some by poverty. I'm all for the being-tried-by-wealth line, but it's still a trial.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I have read and studied the Book of Mormon. Found it very tough to get through because of the language.

And I know you aren't flippant, Kat. I was actually waiting for SOMEONE to say that it's the Book of Mormon and not other Scripture that works.

Catholicism is the wrong religion! Wasted years!

I'm not sure that's the issue, which approach to God to take. It wouldn't matter if I were Jewish or Quaker or Mormon. I'd still have the same issues I have now.

I think.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You did kind of set it up. Nevertheless, it's still true for me. When I finally started doing it (at age 21. I have no excuse.), it was like a light turning on. I was so much happier, gentler, and all around better that I was thinking we could solve half the problems in the world if everyone just read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes a day. If you try again, I'd read Ether 12. It talks about weaknesses, and I love that chapter.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I'm painfully aware of my weaknesses. And I really don't buy it that they're a testament to strength or that God sees them as a way to Him.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
(I'm also well aware that I couldn't be LDS. Secretism bothers the heck out of me, and there's much secretism. But it's a personal thing, not me denouncing anyone. )
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
<----tends to agree.

Some weaknesses can be debilitating, and it's pretty hard to interpret those as strengths through which the Lord can show His power.

[ October 14, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Caleb Varns ]
 

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Posted by kerinin (Member # 4860) on :
 
i just want to pull together a lot of what has been said about god and belief and all in this thread.

here's what we have; god answers prayers based not on what is asked for, but what is best for people, according to a plan which is beyond our comprehension. as such, there is no demonstrable difference between what happens to a person who prays and what happens to a person who does not pray (in a time of need) except in the psychological processes of the two people (prayer may allow people to accept their fate or feel more secure in their future).

because we must 'choose' to believe in god, there is no way to objectively show that he exists, nor the nature of his existence, because anything which prooved his existence would diminish our ability to deny his existence.

we cannot expect our lives to be better or worse based on our belief in god; god gives some people difficult lives as trials and struggles, which allow these people to grow, while he gives other people blessings. Obviously these two co-exist but in different proportions for different people.

so basically, we have described a god which cannot be known, which cannot be relied on, belief in whom can only serve to facilitate the acceptance of the world around us, and to whom nothing can truly be attributed to (or perhaps more specifically, to which everything must be attributed).

where have i misunderstood?
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Just a note – my major struggle with God did not end with a sense of lasting peace. It ended with a blinding realization followed by a response of “You have GOT to be kidding! Please say you’re kidding” <silence> “Nononononononononononono . . . .” ::second major struggle commences::

Mac, I’ve posted it before, but it bears repeating: IMO the whole point of the book of Job is what God tells Job’s friends at the end. They’ve spent the whole book telling Job that he must have done something to deserve his suffering. Maybe he sinned. Maybe his kids sinned. Maybe he didn’t sin actively, but just wasn’t faithful enough. At any rate, it must somehow be his fault. Job insists that he hasn’t, that he’s being persecuted unjustly. God shows up, and tells the friends they’re wrong and Job is right. It’s not a great answer, because it still doesn’t tell us why people suffer, but it does tell us not to blame the people who are suffering. Let me repeat that, very specifically – mac many of your problems are caused by the fact that you have an illness. It is not caused by anything you did or failed to do. It doesn’t mean you weren’t faithful enough or that you picked the wrong religion. And it’s perfectly okay to yell at God about it.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Kerinin reminds me of something else I meant to mention.

I personally don't buy the idea that objective proof of God's existence (putting aside the notion that objectivity itself is a misnomer) would negate the nature of our free will.

How is it that faith and free will are supposedly interchangeable, anyway?

Take the story of Abraham, for instance. A man who's life is filled with miracles and the voice of God. According to Genesis, there is nothing subjective about Abraham's relationship to God. And yet, we have very clear examples of Abraham obeying AND disobeying God. He DID go to sacrifice his son. He did NOT wait for God to give Sarah a child.

The terms of Abraham's relationship to God were unaffected by the definite awareness of God's existence. Free will functions just fine with concrete evidence of God.

So I come back to asking what criteria for establishing trust with God are realistic. You may say that if God wrote his message in big fiery letters in the sky it would be giving too much, thereby taking too much away from faith. Believers often like to say that God does not want a bunch of robots serving his will.

But again I have to object. We do the very same thing with our children. We tell them how the world works, and insofar as they are able to understand it, we explain it to them as well. We also impose order on our children, making them stand in single-file when we move them in groups, requiring that before they open their mouths, they must raise their hands. We treat our kids like robots every single day, and I submit that though their capacity for understanding and their ability to act are not necessarily as free as that of the adult, their hearts and minds enjoy every bit as much free will as we do.

To put it another way, imagine you have before you two food items and you must select one of them. There are many factors involved in your process of making that choice. You may even have sampled one or both of them in the past. But even if you knew everything there was to know about both choices, you would still have to make that choice of your own free will.

So I guess the resulting question of this little thought train is: why is it more valuable to God that men BELIEVE Christ is their saviour rather than KNOW that Christ is their saviour? It's a tough distinction to make since most people who believe in Jesus would also say that they "know" that Jesus is God, but I hope my question is understood nevertheless.

And if your answer to that is "because it's the only way we can grow as human beings", I have to ask: what about the nature of faith, specifically, encourages growth?
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
Good question. I'd like to hear some thoughts on that myself -- from both the Mormons and those of other faiths.

My short answer:

Maybe it's because there's not necessarily a correlation between knowledge and obedience.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 
Uncle Ben said it best: with great power comes great responsibility. In this case knowledge is power and so the more knowledge one gains the more responsible one is for actions against that knowledge.

As a couple of examples: Satan and his minions were cast out of Heaven because the rebelled against God at a time when they were living in his presence. The cost for their rebellion was eternal damnation. Men on earth rebel to a greater or lesser extent against God every day, but the consequence of their rebellion is less because their knowledge is less.

In the Doctrine and Covenants we learn a bit about the type of person who becomes a son of perdition- essentially humans who are so evil that they win the grand prize of evil along with Satan:

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They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come?

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

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Another way to look at it: a mediocre person has neither great failures nor great successes. As a person develops his abilities and talents his capacity for both success and failure increase proportionally.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
The way I see it is not that knowing past faith that God exists removes all trace of free will, but makes choices mean less, and makes it almost impossible for someone who chooses wrong to continue choosing.

Taking your food example: you have plate A and plate B before you and you have to choose which one to eat. You've done reasearch on it and put in a lot of time and effort, and even asked the server to give you hints. But in the end you choose yourself without copmlete assurance that the dish you choose wont do much to you. If you choose right you get to enjoy it's splendor, if you choose wrong you wont enjoy it so much.

But if the waiter tells you wich dish is the best and which one was prepared poorly, then you can of course, choose the bad dish, but who would? And what would you learn by choosing the right dish?

There are two problems with analogy. The first is that it really wouldn't matter that much which food you choose, but we can all pretend that it does so that's OK. The second is that when you make a moral choice, the consequences of each choice vary depending on what you know of it. In this example, if the waiter told you that one dish was poisined and you choose it anyway you would get vary sick. But if the waiter didn't tell you, you wouldn't be as sick. Which makes no sense in this analogy so I'll go ahead and explain another example.

Plenty of people here have pre-martial sex, which most of them wouldn't if they believed in God. I personnally think this is a poor choice and can harm future relationships but I'm not overly concerned with it. They think what they are doing is perfectly fine and as a consequence they are not damaged by it. But imagine if they knew for a fact that God existed and that He forbid pre-martial sex. If they made that choice then, do you think they could live with it? Knowing for certain that they had preformed an act that would have such consequences?

Note: I think that knowing you did something wrong is different than doing something wrong you have no clue about. I'm not making a moral statment about anyone's choices, just pointing out what those choices would mean if God did exist.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
It's ironic to me, Caleb, that you give Abraham as an example. Jewish midrashim (stories that explain the written text) say that he was the first person to find God using only his own mind and heart.

We believe that between the time of Noah and that of Abraham, the concept of monotheism had been lost. Idol worship was ubiquitous. In fact, Abraham's father was an idol merchant. Yet Abraham rejected idols -- the work of men's hands -- and looked elsewhere. He tried to find God in the world around him. He considered the sun, the moon, the stars, the land, the sea. But none had dominion over all others; so none could be the Supreme Ruler.

Eventually, Abraham came to the conclusion that there must be a God that he could not see, who ruled over all that he could. And yet, even though he could not prove the existence of such a God, he was willing to die for His Name. (Prophecy came many decades later.)

Here's something that sums up my thoughts on why God does not reveal Himself to us. (The rest of the essay.)

quote:

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The same is essentially true of our relationship to God. As long as He is hidden, we can strive toward Him, and attain the Godly. But we do this as a matter of free choice and are not overwhelmed by it. But if God were to reveal Himself, then man would no longer be able to exist as a free entity. He would know that he was always under the scrutiny of his Master, and that would make him into something less than human. He would be come some kind of puppet or robot, with an essential ingredient of his humanness destroyed. The only alternative would be rebellion.

But either alternative would cause more evil and suffering than would be alleviated by God's original intervention.

---

 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Hobbes -

I agree that the food analogy is kindof a wash; especially since, absent of real knowledge about the choices at hand, any action you take will necessarily be guesswork, and I prefer to think that a loving God would not give our souls over to guesswork.

Conversely, though, I think that having faith as a necessary ingredient of any relationship implies that part of the bridge between the two entities would be guesswork, and therefore not really fitting for my own personal definition of a loving God.

Jacare -

I'm trying to put your response in terms of my questions...

Is it your contention that, if God were to make Himself overwhelmingly obvious to humanity, MORE human beings would reject God? Or do you mean that God simply does not want humans to be as culpable for their choices and actions than we could be? But if that's the case, what is the purpose of this diminished responsibility?

Rivka -

Hey rivka, thanks for the post. You know I've never heard your version of how Abraham came to have faith in Jehova. In the Bibles that I have studied, Abraham literally hears the voice of God on many occasions. The way I interpret "hears the voice of God" is that an audible voice is involved, and that to Abraham this voice in and of itself was enough to dispel all doubts of its origins; so much so that he was willing to risk everything to follow it. From where does your version come?

Beyond the Abraham question, though, there are many other people throughout the Bible who came into direct contact with some manifestation of God and then later displayed that their free will remained intact, both in obedience and disobedience. I never thought that the Bible implied that their obedience or lack thereof was more or less weighty given the evidence-based conditions of their faiths. And that's how I come to the conclusion that this:

quote:

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But if God were to reveal Himself, then man would no longer be able to exist as a free entity. He would know that he was always under the scrutiny of his Master, and that would make him into something less than human.

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quote:

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Or do you mean that God simply does not want humans to be as culpable for their choices and actions than we could be? But if that's the case, what is the purpose of this diminished responsibility?

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So we are not as accontable as we would be otherwise. Since we are going to make choices, and will inevitably make some poor choices, then we are even more accountable for the wrong choices the more we know.

Not everyone is equally accountable, because not everyone is acting under the same knowledge. If we had perfect knowledge, and still screwed up continually with that knowledge, then we are held even more accountable, and it's harder to repent.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Caleb, my anaolgy was only to try and explain why I don't think God could fully reveal Himself without a very serious negative effect. I agree, any relationship the relies on faith contains guesswork, but that doesn't mean that you can' make sound, logical choices to the best of your ability. And if you knew all the right choices before hand, what would choosing them really mean?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Oh, I agree that you can definitely make sound and logical decisions based on faith. I do so every day.

I just don't agree that knowing you're making the right choice can somehow take away from the fact that you're making the right choice.

I certainly don't feel any less human when I stop at a red light (a decidedly robotic thing to do) because it's been proven to me that it is the law and that obedience thereof is in my best interest. In fact, it makes me feel like a responsible choice-making human being.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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I'm trying to put your response in terms of my questions...

Is it your contention that, if God were to make Himself overwhelmingly obvious to humanity, MORE human beings would reject God? Or do you mean that God simply does not want humans to be as culpable for their choices and actions than we could be? But if that's the case, what is the purpose of this diminished responsibility?

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quote:

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But if that's the case, what is the purpose of this diminished responsibility?

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The purpose of this diminished responsibility is to give us the chance to learn from our mistakes and to change our lives rather than going directly to hell (do not collect 200$) for our mistakes.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
That's certainly true, that following what you know is right can be rewarding. But do you really learn anything if all you do is follow others commands? Expecially when they are omniscient?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"But do you really learn anything if all you do is follow others commands?"

Just to be clear: God's way ISN'T always the best way to do stuff?
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
No Tom, what I mean is that if you never have to think, you're just told what is right and wrong, what have you learned?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
*lol*

That makes a lot of sense, Jacare, thanks.

But from where I'm sitting, your view of man's relationship to God is a lot more robotic--or animalistic, perhaps--than mine is. In your worldview man is purposefully kept in a certain amount of darkness so as to avoid the realities of consequence; but then it's worth pointing out that your view of mankind is significantly less optimistic than mine.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
He isn't kept in darkness, though. He's given a key, a door, and a flashlight, and the sunshine is on the other side.

[ October 14, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"No Tom, what I mean is that if you never have to think, you're just told what is right and wrong, what have you learned?"

But all those people who, for example, condemn homosexuality only because their religion says it's bad, but feel kind of guilty doing so because they personally don't see anything harmful about it, are just taking that position because they've been told what's right and wrong, even though it goes against their own gut feeling and experience.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Hobbes -

There's a difference between mindlessly following the commands of others and realizing that a law is intended for your safety as well as other people's safety... the point of the stoplight example is to show that obedience and knowledge together can be a rewarding AND growing experience, even if you didn't have to guess whether to stop or not.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Does that mean that you shouldn't have to obey the laws if you don't believe they help?

What if it's one o'clock in the morning, you see no one on the roads for miles in each direction, and you run a red light? Is it wrong to not obey then?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Caleb, midrashim are found in the Talmud and other writings. More info here. Oh, and certainly Abraham spoke to God; but that was much later in his life. He first received prophecy at the age of 70. (More midrashim about Abraham.)

Ok, I oversimplified, and you were right to call me on it. There are actually several incidents where God appeared unequivocally to those who were not really prepared to fully believe in Him so completely. I'll use the example you gave, of Adam and Eve. What did they do with this unequivocal knowledge? They tried to deny it, and they rebelled against Him. When humans are denied their free choice, they do have a second option. (The first is becoming little more than automatons.) The second is rebellion, an attempt to reclaim their right to choose.

quote:

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I certainly don't feel any less human when I stop at a red light (a decidedly robotic thing to do) because it's been proven to me that it is the law and that obedience thereof is in my best interest. In fact, it makes me feel like a responsible choice-making human being.

---

But what if you KNEW, with absolute certainty, that running the red light would mean your death. Then you still have a choice, but it's not nearly as indicative of your ability to choose responsibly.

[ October 14, 2003, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Yes, I agree with both of you Tom and Caleb. If someone thinks homosexuality is wrong and has no reasons than they should think through their position. I think it's OK to believe something that was just told to you if A) You think that the person who told it to you knows what they are talking about and B) It has little impact on your life. For instance, if someone just told me the equation for lift on a plane's wing who worked at Boeing, I would have to problem just taking their word for it. But if it was my English teacher, I'd have to go find out.

On the other end, if a civil engineer tells me that I would hate that career, I wouldn't just follow their advice despite the fact that it was coming from someone who knows what they are talking about. I would have to actually figure it out because that's far too important a desicion to make based on someone's word.

If somone thinks that homosexuality has little to no impact on them, and they have no plans of convincing anyone, I don't think there's anything wrong with just "God told me". But if they don't live that life, they need to do some reasearch and figure it out for themselves. I would assume that God will only condone or condem things for logical reasons, not just because. If I believe something is right or wrong I hope that I have logical reasons to back it up or I have no buisness trying to convince anyone else.

So I guess I can see where you're coming from. It's not always wrong to just be told what to do, sometimes you don't have time to fiure it out for such a small choice (or whatever). My point is that if you get to the end of your life and look back, you may have made all the right choices, but how would it have helped you if you just followed what others said?

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Not necessarily, rivka.

I know for a certainty that if I were to murder someone in our society, my life would more or less be forfeit. But my choice not to murder someone is not based so much on my fear of the consequences as it is based on my understanding of the principles involved. It is just so with the stoplight. It could be one in the morning and no one around, and I would still feel guilty for running the red light whether or not there were consequences involved. The knowledge and understanding of the law are what lead me to obey it with any kind of meaning.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 

quote:

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He isn't kept in darkness, though. He's given a key, a door, and a flashlight, and the sunshine is on the other side.

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quote:

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In your worldview man is purposefully kept in a certain amount of darkness so as to avoid the realities of consequence

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quote:

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The knowledge and understanding of the law are what lead me to obey it with any kind of meaning.

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quote:

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I know for a certainty that if I were to murder someone in our society, my life would more or less be forfeit. But my choice not to murder someone is not based so much on my fear of the consequences as it is based on my understanding of the principles involved. It is just so with the stoplight. It could be one in the morning and no one around, and I would still feel guilty for running the red light whether or not there were consequences involved. The knowledge and understanding of the law are what lead me to obey it with any kind of meaning.

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quote:

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The thing is, God already KNOWS whether you're a complete idiot. He knows whether you have good judgment. What is gained by forcing you to exercise that judgment, potentially to your detriment, with no obvious benefit?

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Because tests are not to prove your worth to Him. They are for you to prove your worth to yourself, and to stretch yourself in ways you may not have thought you ever could. I disagree that there is "no obvious benefit." Every time you exercise the correct judgment, make the right choice -- ESPECIALLY if doing so is difficult -- you grow. Spiritually, emotionally, sometimes physically. Think of an athlete in training. They must constantly push their limits. Well, we are all "in training" in this world.

To toss in a few obvious clichés: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. God doesn't give me anything I cannot handle. I do often wish He didn't believe I could handle so much!
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
And that's the kind of stuff I don't understand. Here! Let's make your life crap just to show you how "strong" you are.

Rarely does the person facing adversity see the strength in it.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*sighs* Sorry, mack. I agree that it's not an answer that works for everyone. Heck, some days it doesn't work all that well for me!

But a purpose that I can't fully understand or appreciate (and sometimes have trouble appreciating at ALL) seems so much better to me than NO purpose. YMMV

I'd hug you, but I'm respecting your boundaries.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
It just seems there IS no purpose.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
There are days when I agree.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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But from where I'm sitting, your view of man's relationship to God is a lot more robotic--or animalistic, perhaps--than mine is. In your worldview man is purposefully kept in a certain amount of darkness so as to avoid the realities of consequence; but then it's worth pointing out that your view of mankind is significantly less optimistic than mine.

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quote:

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The thing is, God already KNOWS whether you're a complete idiot. He knows whether you have good judgement. What is gained by forcing you to exercise that judgement, potentially to your detriment, with no obvious benefit?

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quote:

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Why, then, would He submit trials to people who can't deal with them, if those trials exist for no reason other than self-improvement?

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quote:

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Surely. . .

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You keep using this word. . . I don't think you're qualified to use it. . .

God gives everyone the opportunity to excel. He knows which of us will succeed and which will fail, but gives everyone the opportunity because He is just. (And to prevent whining, such as, "God just sent me to Hell! I didn't even DO anything! Nothing!") He also has promised to help us through our trials if we turn to Him.

quote:

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if God's only reason for giving us trials is to help us achieve enlightenment, why wouldn't He arrange these trials -- knowing as He does all results of those trials -- to ENSURE enlightenment?

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He does.

[ October 15, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Can we declare a moratorium on adverbs?
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I find it interesting that if it turns out God does not exist, there will be a lot of people who were significantly underestimating their own inner strength.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
The thing is -- and I'm speaking as a former teacher here, myself -- you're both saying that God is a phenomenally BAD teacher.

"Enrolling in school," you argue, "is empirically better than NOT enrolling, so anyone who faces a trial is better off than someone who doesn't."

But in a situation where God only permits the trials for educational purposes in the first place, what is gained by not permitting only those trials that will actually be constructive and lead someone to, for example, a higher plane of existence (or even Godhood?)

Is FAILING a trial picked by God better than PASSING one? If so, why? Why, for example, has Anne Kate led a life that has led her to Mormonism and a better class of Heaven, when Caleb has led a life that took him in the other direction?

Both Anne Kate and Caleb have been shaped by their trials, right? And God picked and permitted those trials, right? And God KNEW how those trials would turn out, right?

So why would God send Caleb trials that He KNEW would result in Caleb's receiving a lower-class Heaven, if God's goal is to help as many people to "good" Heaven as He can?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't like the personal examples. I'm not willing to say who in our company is going to what heaven. Do you have any hypotheticals?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Sure. Instead of "Anne Kate" and "Caleb," let's call them "Hobbes" and "Karl Ed."

Or you can invent some hypothetical people, if you want, with the same general history:

1) Someone looking for something more decides to switch churches, and apparently lucks into the right church. As long as he or she sticks to the rules, he or she is guaranteed a spot in "good" Heaven.

2) Someone belonging to the right church becomes disillusioned for some reason and leaves. Unless he or she sees the error of his or her ways, he or she is now relegated to a worse afterlife than he or she would have had had they never been born into the right church in the first place.

Both of these hypothetical people are who they are because of their reactions -- PREDICTED reactions -- to trials posed them by God. So why does God want Hypothetical Person #2 to leave the church? And why doesn't God want Hypothetical Person #3 to care one way or another about His church?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
In your examples, Tom, the actions of the people are the result of either blind luck or else being doomed to failure from the beginning. In your scenario, what do you consider to be the place of agency?

"If they keep all the rules" is a major condition. Considering the more you know and the more light you are given, the greater is your responsibility to live up to that light, not everyone is being judged with exactly the same criteria.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
It kind of comes down into whether your faith lends your views to predestination or free will. It might also be that someone thinks that the world is painted on their eyeballs by a madman (to paraphrase DesCartes).

Me, I'm of the free will variety. I do believe in God's omniscience and omnipotence. I also believe He follows pretty much a hands-off approach. He doesn't throw as many tests as we think and a lot of what we think of as tests are just the crappy parts of living in this world. How we handle all of it, though, is how we are judged when it is said and done.

Remember, though, that in the concept of free will, we don't just suffer the consequences for our own actions, but often times suffer the consequences of other people's actions. If I drive through an intersection and another car plows into me because the other driver ran a red light, well, it's the other driver's fault, not God's.

Free will, if you think about it, is simply that web that draws us all together. You make your choices, I make mine. Sometimes they are at cross purposes, sometimes they work together, most times they never meet. But it is human.

If a parent abuses a child, the parent has used (and abused) their free will to harm an innocent, knowingly. The child is the victim and punishment for the parent may not come until after this life. Or it may wear on the parent every day of their life. The child, though, won't see justice here. What could be done in this world to ever repair them, to make it so that it never happened? It can't be in this world of bricks and mortar, blood and bone. How could it be?

I do believe, however, that after this life, we will be salved of our injuries and probably revisit those we have injured.

I remarked earlier about how one has to put aside what has happened to them and move on to find solace, both in themself and from God. It's true. Look at it from the physical and spiritual sides.

Physical:
A great crime was done to you. You are the victim. It hurts, it is pain, but the real marks and bruises, those visible, have faded with time. There's probably anger and questioning on the part of the victim, there's also the devastation done to one's self esteem and worth. And it is a scar that is put on them each and every time they look in the mirror. They don't always see themselves as their own person, but see themselves as the victim of another person. You can't heal as long as you allow yourself to be that victim. You remain, no matter what, in that person's power whether they intend it or not. You continue to put yourself under their swinging blows or vile words. That person may never strike you or say anything to you again in your life, but in your heart and mind the blows and words ring again and again, echoing through the days.
So what do you have to do? Force it out of your life. You can't go back and change it. Revenge will never settle your soul and living under its weight will crack you to your foundations.
Forgive the perpetrator of the crime against you. Say to yourself that you can never understand what caused them to do it, that you can never undo what has been done, throw your hands up and walk away from it. Let it go, no matter how hard it is. No longer define yourself by those things done to you, but define yourself by your own actions. Don't carry the perpetrator's baggage.

Spiritually:
You have to release and forgive. Emotionally wrenching as it is, as hard as it is to do, you have to forgive to clear yourself. It tells God you have risen above what happened, it says you are now taking responsibility for your OWN actions. It is in affect, saying, I am an adult and I will bear myself through my days.
It also tells God that He is more important than the person who did that to you. That you believe more in God's redemption than the crimes perpetrated by a man of clay and dust.
It is about transcending the tragedy and getting on with your journey in life. We're all judged based on our OWN individual journeys. Why have your journey set purely by a tragic event that you had no control over. Be your own person, that, I believe is the crux of God's gift of free will. Your OWN person. No one else's.

Sorry for the ramble.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Sopwith, I would be interested to hear how this take on forgivness applies in my " grandma " situation. THis is exactly the kind of forgivness that doesn't quite make sense to me.

AJ
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
AJ, let's face it, your Grandma is a bit of a wacko, at least from the perspective we've been given. Her values and actions don't help you along in the least bit, but apparently give you tons to worry about.

Why does it matter what she thinks? Are you bothered by not measuring up for her? If her beliefs and actions aren't ones you are willing to respect, why respect her opinions of your life? Why have her tell you what's wrong constantly and still try to follow the path you feel is ahead of you? And why have it be something you have to carry around like a millstone around your neck?

My maternal grandfather spent a good portion of my life telling me what I was doing wrong. How I needed to go into the Marines and put my "silly' dreams behind me. Told me how I needed to grow up and be a "Man." He also spent his life trying to earn money and prove to others how much he had earned, what a big man he had made of himself. I only saw him when he visited the shopping center he owned in the town I lived in. And then, once, I happened to drive by my great aunt's house on the way to coach a soccer game. My grandfather's car was there and he had made no effort to contact me when he got to town (it was an 8-hour drive from his home to mine). I couldn't stop because I had 15 eight year-olds waiting on me. As soon as the game was over, I went back, but he was gone. He wasn't at ANY of the hotels in town, nor had he stopped at the one restaurant there that he liked. He had arrived and left without saying a word or even leaving a message on my answering machine. My years of annoyance turned to hate and anger towards him. All of the "advice" he had given me just ate right into me, it had reached a boiling point and no longer would I have anything to do with him. It festered for years.
Until my Mom called and asked me and my wife to come to his nursing home bed. We drove to Virginia Beach and I spent a few hours at his bedside. A once proud, strong man lay in a bed, slack-jawed and struggling to breathe. His eyes couldn't focus on anything, he never acknowledged anyone's presence. He was more helpless in his age than I had been as a babe in my mother's arms. He laid there, his life sloughing off by the moment. Helpless and his lifelong advice and badgering hadn't changed me to his will, had only poisoned me against him. And I found myself empty and aching. I couldn't do anything for him. No matter how much he hurt me or how much my life didn't meet his expectations, I still hurt. I did the only thing I could, I forgave him and let my heart feel love for him, another human being, someone who lived and loved and strove and hoped against hope that his life path was the right one. He passed away the next day and it did hurt. But it hurt the way it is supposed to. It hurt because of the loss, not because of the rough times, rough times that I had been carrying around for years and years. He had only wanted the best for me, the same as I, we just had very different ideas on how to get there.

I'll be perfectly and blatantly honest. I'd give my eye teeth to have him back here now and have the chance to live with him in this different light. I understand now better his motivations and perhaps, as things move along better for me now, he'd have a better grasp of my accomplishments.

Let your Grandmother have her say, but don't carry it around as a bad thing, no matter how, admittedly, whacked she is. Love her just for the sake that she apparently loves you enough to make the effort. Forgive her lack of understanding and show her the better way by your own actions and successes.

Sorry, that's the best I can do.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I remarked earlier about how one has to put aside what has happened to them and move on to find solace, both in themself and from God. It's true."

I agree wholeheartedly, actually. But in the context of the original point of this thread, I can't help wondering what part God plays in this, beyond working as a personal source of psychological comfort.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Eh, sorry, just a struggling and striving mortal here. Sometimes I've just got to shrug my shoulders and look sheepish.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I think this does tie in with perceptions or non-perceptions of God.

quote:

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I'll be perfectly and blatantly honest. I'd give my eye teeth to have him back here now and have the chance to live with him in this different light. I understand now better his motivations and perhaps, as things move along better for me now, he'd have a better grasp of my accomplishments.

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quote:

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Why does it matter what she thinks? Are you bothered by not measuring up for her? If her beliefs and actions aren't ones you are willing to respect, why respect her opinions of your life? Why have her tell you what's wrong constantly and still try to follow the path you feel is ahead of you? And why have it be something you have to carry around like a millstone around your neck?

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson
rivka, why would unfounded, unexamined belief be of greater value to God than honest obedience based on mutual respect?

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I'm going to be re-reading this thread and participating more fully when I get some time, but for now I'd ask you to consider whether a particular kind of belief (not unfounded and unexamined but still not based on absolute proof) may be more valuable to us.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
A whole universe out there and you mean there aren't things more important than me?

Sorry, I'm just a lil fella on this particular globe spinnin round and round. Yes, we all do get our personal attention from God, but not every time we want it.

Speak of maturity and a child's demands. Does my occasional asthma attack warrant more than someone starving somewhere because of warlords taking away food? Does my lack of self confidence hold a candle to someone rocking and reeling in a true moral dilemma? Does my anger over a grandparent not telling me what I want to hear even compare in the least to the anger a person feels before they decide to strap on a vest of dynamite and head off to the peace rally?

It bothers me to no end how people seem to feel they, individually, are the center of the universe. That they blame God for something that isn't just Martha Stewart perfect in their life.

Grow up, get over it. Hard words, but how many times does it have to be said nicely before someone gets a clue?

The line is, paraphrased, forgive me of my trespasses as I forgive the trespasses of others.

So many times, we just want forgiveness for what we do wrong, but we want to hold on to the wrongs others have done to us. We deserve forgiveness, but the others don't. Because deep down inside, no one matters but us, do we. And deep down inside, we all think we're God or that we could do a better job than He is.

Look, I'm a fool, a simpleton. I don't understand how the whole world works. I can't throw the bones and tell you what God means for you. I can't stand and patly say "This is right, this is wrong" on anything outside the parameters of my own life.

If you can, please start doing so. Impart your wisdom, for guidance is something I always seem to need.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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So let me repeat my question: why would God give tests He KNOWS we can't pass to people He KNOWS will fail them? Why would He submit someone to the kind of life that, for example, would lead them to grow into the kind of person who doesn't actually have a hope of achieving their potential?

---

In the first place this question presupposes an individually designed course for everyone. I see no reason why such a thing is necessarily the case, especially if the judgement is based on what you did with what you were given.

What if God just flings us willy-nilly down to earth and where you end up after judgment is based solely on the progress you made?

*Warning* Illustrative example ahead:

You design a contest of engineering students to select those that will go into the doctoral program, masters program, bachelors program or be refused entrance. The contest consists of each student being given a random selection of objects and being ordered to build a useful machine. Some students have everything necessary to make an electric motor or a perpetual motion machine while the best some can do with their kits is a grasshopper catapult.

The final judging is not based on the final utility of the machine but on the ingenuity and creativity used with the materials given.

In such a scenario God is not setting up anyone for failure or success; each person is responsible for their own reward after this life.

[ October 15, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Jacare Sorridente ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"What if God just flings us willy-nilly down to earth and where you end up is after judgment is based solely on the progress you made?"

Is this your opinion? Because it would seem to violate the scripture of your religion.

As I'm given to understand Mormonism, everybody who attends the science fair and tries to make something gets a ribbon for participation and a ride home on the short bus, but only the people who managed to build functioning nuclear reactors get the prizes. (And those people who're offered uranium for that purpose but turn it down are escorted out by cops at the end of the day.)

----

For that matter, doesn't the idea of being flung to Earth willy-nilly pretty much line right up with my assertion earlier that the God we've been describing is one of the world's worst teachers?

[ October 15, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
[side note] I want to thank Tres for starting this thread, and all the participants. It's making me really think, and I appreciate that. [/side note]

Jacarre, I agree, the word "test" is a bad one. My problem is that I think of most of these concepts using Hebrew or Yiddish words/phrases. It's hard enough to remember to write "Abraham" each time instead of "Avraham."

Tom, I do indeed believe that God only sends us test we have the ability to pass. HOWEVER. Not everything is a test. Some things that happen to us are consequences of our actions, not tests. Can we -- must we -- still make the best of these situations? Certainly.

Moreover, if He only sent us the tests we could pass, it would compromise what I call free will (I think it's the same as what kat keeps calling agency, but I'm not sure?). Knowing you will succeed at overcoming all obstacles greatly lessens their impact and any possible lesson(s). The greatest gain is when you somehow manage to dig deep and overcome what you were certain you could not.

But even if you don't pass, the test is not a failure. Do you not believe that you can learn at least as much from your mistakes as from your successes? Repentance (in Hebrew "teshuvah," which actually means return) and trying again can only occur if first you fail.

Many people who quit smoking only successfully do so after many failed attempts. Does that mean that the earlier attempts had no point? No -- they were part of the entire process.

We believe that true repentance (return), motivated by love of our Creator, is so great, that a "ba'al teshuvah" -- one who has repented/returned -- is greater than one who has never sinned. True repentance, done out of love for Him (rather than fear, which motivates a lesser type of repentance) turns debits into credits. Because now they have become steps toward Him, though they may have seemed to be steps away from Him at the time.

A man cannot be fully judged until the day of his death. He may yet return.

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What about God living up to our own expectations of benevolent, consistent behavior?

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quote:

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When someone asks, "Why me, God?", we need to discern if she is asking a philosophical question or letting out an emotional cry. A philosophical question is a request for clarity and warrants an intellectual reply. However if her words are an expression of emotional anguish, any rational explanation is worse than irrelevant, it’s downright insensitive and cruel. An expression of pain requires empathy, not answers; silence, not words. My friend, while in the midst of experiencing profound loss, had no interest in hearing a philosophy lecture.

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quote:

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Eh, sorry, just a struggling and striving mortal here. Sometimes I've just got to shrug my shoulders and look sheepish.

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That's a great way of putting it, Sopwith. I plan to borrow it, if that's ok.

quote:

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But in the context of the original point of this thread, I can't help wondering what part God plays in this, beyond working as a personal source of psychological comfort.

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Why must there be more? In this world, I mean? I'll take my rewards in the next world, where they are worth so much more. (Yeah, ok, that's the theory, anyway. I'm human -- I wish and pray for things in this world too.)

quote:

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Because as with God, I'm told I'm "supposed" to love her.

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quote:

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If he created families to intrinsically be "good" and a stabilizing element on society

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quote:

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Name one.
I mean, in all seriousness, it's not like God's too BUSY or something.

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The story is told that a Roman matron once asked Rabbi Yosi: "How has your God been occupying his time since He finished the creation of the world?"

"He has been busy pairing couples," answered the Rabbi.

She was astonished. "Is that His trade? Even I can do that job. As many man-servants and maid-servants as I have, I can pair."

"Perhaps it is a simple matter in your eyes," replied the Rabbi. "For God, it is as intricate as the Splitting of the Sea."

She promptly placed one thousand man-servants opposite one thousand maidservants and declared, "He will marry her, she will marry him," and so on.

The next morning, two thousand servants came to her door, beaten and bruised, complaining, "I do not want her, I do not want him!"

She sent for Rabbi Yosi, and conceded: "Rabbi, your Torah is true."

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quote:

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God sustains the universe every second -- every creature, every blade of grass. God makes your heart pump. He provides your food. He created the sun with heat and light. There is nothing that can stop God. Your parents, teachers and boss are the delivery people. Every single thing you have is sent from God.

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And yet, I believe He does "give me an ego boost now and then"! Of course, if I don't pay attention, and keep myself open to those messages -- and we are so busy with life, it is hard to hear these messages -- I may miss them.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Tom, tell me, what else do Mormons think?

----

Actually, I like that idea.

Based on what you've picked up from Hatrack and learned on your own, can you answer your own questions with a believing, Mormon perspective? How would you answer yourself?
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I've been reading this thread in chunks instead of following it along (like I should), so I just came across this:

quote:

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Sure. Instead of "Anne Kate" and "Caleb," let's call them "Hobbes" and "Karl Ed."

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Hobbes
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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What if God just flings us willy-nilly down to earth and where you end up is after judgment is based solely on the progress you made?"

Is this your opinion? Because it would seem to violate the scripture of your religion

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quote:

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Oh, and the problem with comparing any two people, real or theoretical, is He doesn't. After a hundred and twenty (God willing), I will not be asked why I was not Rivka Imeinu (Rebbecca the Matriarch). I will be asked why I was not the best me I could be.

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I think Rivka is basically reasoning along the same lines as I am.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"God sustains the universe every second -- every creature, every blade of grass. God makes your heart pump. He provides your food. He created the sun with heat and light."

Except that we know God does not, in fact, make people's hearts pump. If He did, at His feet would lie the blame for every heart failure, every attack, and the majority of deaths in this country.

God does not make wheat grow, and it's more likely that the nuclear fusion that powers the sun is what provides its heat and light.

Leaving all that aside, are you suggesting that God gets BUSY? That He's basically omnipotent, but sometimes things get out of hand? That, perhaps, so many more hearts are beating nowadays due to population growth that He just can't get AROUND to doing those Old Testament-style miracles anymore?

---------

"Based on what you've picked up from Hatrack and learned on your own, can you answer your own questions with a believing, Mormon perspective?"

The answer I'd give myself, as a Mormon, is that it's necessary to trust in and obey God -- even if we, as limited human beings, cannot understand or even perceive the limits of His plans, even if His actions make no logical sense from our perspective -- as a child should obey parents who refuse to let him eat too much dessert. We should not expect our life to necessarily be better in this world for believing and obeying Him, although other people might feel that it's helped; God does not owe us consistency, and in fact inconsistency might be part of His plan for us.

And the way we should know to trust in any one specific God is that, when we open our hearts to Him, we should feel His presence. Those people who don't feel any kind of presence are, frankly, up a creek without a paddle.

------

Jacare, as I understand Mormon dogma, the afterlife you receive is NOT based entirely upon relative progress.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Tom, every time I discuss religion with you I end up feeling sad.

Your story isn't over yet, though.

[ October 15, 2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I would personally never do anything that didn't make sense to (excluding things that were of little importance and I was willing to trust someone on it). Also, it seems to me that in Mormon theology no one is really clear on what level of "goodness" it takes to reach the highest degree of glory; there are only a few simple check marks of things that must be done, but are not everything that must be done (i.e. be married).

Ohh, and hi Tom!

Hobbes
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Hey, Hobbes.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

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I think Rivka is basically reasoning along the same lines as I am.

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Jacarre, indeed.

quote:

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Except that we know God does not, in fact, make people's hearts pump. If He did, at His feet would lie the blame for every heart failure, every attack, and the majority of deaths in this country.

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quote:

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God does not make wheat grow, and it's more likely that the nuclear fusion that powers the sun is what provides its heat and light.

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quote:

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Leaving all that aside, are you suggesting that God gets BUSY? That He's basically omnipotent, but sometimes things get out of hand? That, perhaps, so many more hearts are beating nowadays due to population growth that He just can't get AROUND to doing those Old Testament-style miracles anymore?

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Not really. I was being a bit flippant, and I apologize.

[ October 15, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I was being a bit flippant, and I apologize."

No need to apologize. It's just that it seems rather insulting to God to suggest that He just couldn't be bothered making somebody feel better, as if He had something BETTER to do with an infinite amount of time.

I mean, an omnipotent and omnipresent deity has as many lines on his Day Planner as He wants to have, as far as I'm concerned. When He takes time out of His busy day to watch sparrows fall or make sure that nuclear fusion continues to work, that doesn't mean He can't get around to letting Susie Johannsen of 153 Elvsheim Blvd. know that He really appreciates the way she handled that thing with her mother.

[ October 15, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Hmm, Rivka, we both agree and disagree. God, is of course, the starter of the systems that causes these things to happen, but I would hesitate to tie Him that directly to pumping our hearts and growing the plants in our fields. He was intial cause, and He probably does help with things like that sometimes (not that I would know ) but for the most part I think my heart pumps because I've kept it in shape and few it properly. Of course then we can go back to the fact that He's given me this body to have a heart pump and food to feed it and what not, but the point is that I don't really think that when someone's heart stops it's because God got tired of pumping.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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that doesn't mean He can't get around to letting Susie Johannsen of 153 Elvsheim Blvd. know that He really appreciates the way she handled that thing with her mother.

---

quote:

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I mean, an omnipotent and omnipresent deity has as many lines on his Day Planner as He wants to have, as far as I'm concerned. When He takes time out of His busy day to watch sparrows fall or make sure that nuclear fusion continues to work, that doesn't mean He can't get around to letting Susie Johannsen of 153 Elvsheim Blvd. know that He really appreciates the way she handled that thing with her mother.

---

Perhaps He does let her know, but in a way more subtle than a "Thinking of You" Hallmark card. Or perhaps you get a gold star by your name that day in the big ledger book.

But Tom, I've tried to say this before and I'm going to blame it on a failing of my ability to communicate. So, let's try again, as simply as I can.

Free will is God's gift to us. We make our decisions, we suffer our consequences. Sometimes your free will bumps up against mine -- now and then successfully, now and then disastrously. Sometimes the free will of someone generations upon generations ago impacts someone today.

Free will means that God, in infinite wisdom, allows you to live your life and make your own decisions. He doesn't force you to be good (but there are volumes on the rewards and consequences that arise from our actions) just like He doesn't force you to even believe in Him or anything.

God also, as part of free will, has a hands off approach to the world and our lives. He has to or it is not a matter of our free will directing our lives and therefore our fate. Infinite wisdom.

Will God intercede on behalf of your prayers? Yes, I believe He does. Do the answers always come in the way we forsee them? Almost never. But I believe that is our limitation, not God's.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I'm getting what Sopwith is saying...but it just makes me wonder more: Why would God do this sort of thing?

Why create human beings, toss them willy-nilly down to Earth, and see how they turn out?

Is this God's version of reality television? Are we His entertainment?
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
God is the 3 dimensional shadow of a 4 dimensional goat herder. It does not care about any of us. Its a personification of a natural occurance. Like claiming that the tide follows the moon because the moon is made of cheese and the ocean is hungry.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Sopwith, the problem I have with the rest of that is that it just doesn't seem to make sense. After all, if you're a teacher, you aren't removing your students' free will by giving them tests they can pass; you aren't cheapening their education by spending more time with them.

If it's more important to God that people have free agency than all people get to Heaven, what exactly does free will do for us?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
We aren't we all guaranteed a spot in heaven? Why go through this?

Is that what you're asking? I'm just trying to be clear.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
*sigh* Okay, let's be clear. I mean "guaranteed a spot in super-good-uber-spiffy Heaven," not "suburban sprawl Heaven" or "okay but not necessarily the most hip Heaven."

But, yes, why AREN'T we all guaranteed spots in Heaven? Why can't we all have the experiences necessary to turn us into Gods?

What's the inherent merit in "free will" that makes the possibility -- certainty, since we're dealing with omniscience -- of failure more important than ascension?

[ October 15, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Because the super-duper, spiffy heaven isn't like hotel accomodations. It's like... the Olympics. It doesn't matter how many plane tickets to Sidney your uncle buys you; you're not in the Olympics unless you train.

quote:

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Why can't we all have the experiences necessary to turn us into Gods?

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We do! These are some of the experiences necessary.

Do you mean why doesn't God give us only tests he knows we'll pass, no matter what?

Then there isn't choice. There's no good choices without the true possibility of bad choices, and there's no growth without the making of good choices.

[ October 15, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
So he wants us to have the possibility of making bad choices, yet he writes four books(with somewhat limited distribution) detailing exactly the right choices?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
There are books detailing exactly the traffic laws, but that wouldn't stop me from running a red light.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Actually, if you want to go with a purely Biblical version of the answer: at one time, humans were perfect, innocent and unknowing. Through trickery they were brought to knowledge and then the fall. And from there on, we've been left to struggle against our sins in an effort to attain Heaven. And then Christ came and the doors to Heaven were opened to all if they simply accepted him as their savior and believed.

Accept and believe. That's all it takes. The good deeds? If you're a person who understands the sacrifice Christ made and the opportunity you were fully given, then you do the good deeds not to get into Heaven, but simply because it is right to do Good.

Please understand, as a Christian, I believe that I have already gotten my reward, paid for by the blood of a man I can only hope to know and in some small way emulate. No matter the evils that the world may inflict upon me, that great gift, never tarnishes.

I could, however, throw it away at any time if I so chose. Christ freely gave of himself and his life so that I and all others would have the opportunity to live without fear of Hell.

And greater men and women than I will ever be, his own direct followers and apostles, suffered on Earth for their beliefs and all but one were slain for them. The tortures and travails they endured mattered not in the measuring of Grace in their final moments.

They preached the Gospel and were slain for it. They lived hard lives, were often imprisoned, many tortured, many despised in their time. They did the Good, knowing what harm would befall them, for their reward was in and of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Edit to Add: This is from a non-Mormon perspective. As a Protestant, I've been made no guarantees of being like a God in Heaven or anything else. My knowledge of the Mormon faith goes barely beyond the bounds of this forum board.

[ October 15, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I'll bet God has a higher conviction rate than your local police.

And His consequences are greater.

I give your analogy a C-.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You know it's perfect.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

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Hmm, Rivka, we both agree and disagree. God, is of course, the starter of the systems that causes these things to happen, but I would hesitate to tie Him that directly to pumping our hearts and growing the plants in our fields. He was initial cause, and He probably does help with things like that sometimes (not that I would know) but for the most part I think my heart pumps because I've kept it in shape and few it properly. Of course then we can go back to the fact that He's given me this body to have a heart pump and food to feed it and what not, but the point is that I don't really think that when someone's heart stops it's because God got tired of pumping.

---

Hobbes, I know. It's one of the major differences between traditional Jewish beliefs and those of many other religions. I do believe that He put into motion the laws that govern the universe; but also that if He took His attention away for the briefest of moments (whatever that means), the world would cease to exist.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
You know, if they gave out rewards for obeying traffic laws, I'd be more apt to obey them.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
*Steps in before dinner* My personal belief is that being stuck in the "suburban sprawl Heaven" (love it Tom ) does not mean you will never get to be in the "super-good-uber-spiffy Heaven", just that you aren't ready for it yet (either by not learning enough to appreciate it or not being morally capable of living there).

But that's just my belief, it's not exactly Church doctrine.

*Steps out for dinner*

Hobbes

[ October 15, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
 

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Posted by wieczorek (Member # 5565) on :
 

quote:

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being stuck in the "suburban sprawl Heaven" (love it Tom ) does not mean you will never get to be in the "super-good-uber-spiffy Heaven", just that you aren't ready for it yet (either by not learning enough to appreciate it or not being morally capable of living there

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Does that mean that children who die in tragic accidents already appreciate life enough to die and go to the "spiffy heaven", (if you will ) ? I don't understand why God, if one exists, sees it fit to cause pain in the last moments of some lives.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I have no clue what happens to them, it depends on the child. What do you mean cause them pain in the last moments of their life? How is this pain God's doing?

[EDIT: This post reads kind of harsh, which it shouldn't. This post is not harsh, if you think it was harsh just pretend it wasn't because I can't write anyways and your lucky just to get my bad writting that makes it sound like I'm attacking or something. ]

Hobbes

[ October 15, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
All children who die before the age of accountability get a free pass. (See Moroni 8)
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
*Hits self in head*
*Points to Kat*
*Pretends he never said anything stupid*
*Hits self in head*

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I’m with rivka on this one. God is at every moment sustaining reality itself. God stops = collapse of time/space/universe/reality.

But at the same time, God has time to count the hairs on our heads and note the fall of every sparrow. No out for God being "too busy."
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
I know, everybody's probably already heard enough from Mormons on this (and every other) thread, but it seems like a lot of the posts up to now have been dancing around a central concept in LDS theology.

We don't believe God is omnipotent. I know this has been pointed out already, but its implications have not been completely explored.

God's goal is to maximize the joy of each of his children. The maximum of joy is to be found in becoming as much like God as possible (whatever that is.) However, he cannot simply wave a magic wand and accomplish this. He is constrained by irrevocable rules not of his invention.

There is no way to help us reach our highest potential without meeting certain criteria. There is no use complaining that God doesn't make it easier, because that is impossible for him. It is out of his hands. The plan that he designed is the only plan possible.

UofUlawguy
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Well, who's making the rules God has to follow? I wanna worship THAT guy!
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 

quote:

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So what do you have to do? Force it out of your life. Forgive the perpetrator of the crime against you. Say to yourself that you can never understand what caused them to do it, that you can never undo what has been done, throw your hands up and walk away from it.

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quote:

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You have to release and forgive. Emotionally wrenching as it is, as hard as it is to do, you have to forgive to clear yourself. It tells God you have risen above what happened, it says you are now taking responsibility for your OWN actions. It is in affect, saying, I am an adult and I will bear myself through my days.

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quote:

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Do you expect God to come down and pat you on your head and tell you what a good little girl you are?

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quote:

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We make the choices that determine which one we will have -- or really, which way we will tip the balance.

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quote:

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God's goal is to maximize the joy of each of his children.

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quote:

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There is no way to help us reach our highest potential without meeting certain criteria.

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What criteria?

...and I'm with Frisco.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

quote:

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Well, who's making the rules God has to follow? I wanna worship THAT guy!

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That would be the God the non-LDS believers on this thread believe in.

edit: can't spell.

[ October 15, 2003, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
*frown*
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
dkw, that was very funny. And very !
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
So, God put us here to learn. Presumably, right from wrong. And he gives us all the right answers. And tells us the awesome rewards for doing the things he tells us and the horrific consequences for not.

What's the point?

What are we learning by doing exactly as he tells us? Do we just selfishly wait until someone else does wrong in order to learn why we should do right?



[ October 15, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
What was so funny about what dkw said? It is what I believe and something that I don't believe is a laughing matter.

Do Mormons believe Christians, non-LDS Christians, are quaint or something? Underachievers?
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I'll take the god of dogs, please.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 

quote:

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Have you actually done this yourself, for something much worse than a slap to the face? Or a turn of a back?

---

Actually, Mack, I have. While I have never tried to dwell on the bad things that have happened to me in this forum, it is only fair at times to at least show the shoes I've walked in.

I've been abused by an alcoholic, drug addicted step father, both physically and emotionally. He was also the first person I got high with and one of his closest friends, in a drunken stupor tried to molest me one night.

I was emotionally abused by my mother constantly from the time I was 11 until I left home three days after graduating. A move that saw me end up in a boarding house wherein a number of recent divorcee`s, parole releasees and halfway house mental patients live. One night there, I did have to interpose myself between a gun-wielding mental patient on a Robitussin binge and an off-duty paramedic who was cowering for his life.

I have been so poor that I have had to beg for a place to sleep. I've been so deeply driven into a broken heart and bottles of booze that a friend had to basically kidnap me and take me five counties away so that I could dry out and straighten myself up.

I had my fiance` explain to me that she was leaving me for my roommate (the man who had introduced us) and that the two had been seeing each other behind my back for months.

I've had a person get me fired from my job, one that I loved dearly, just so they could have my spot, only to have them turn around and quit to take another job.

I've had a dear and trusted friend run around on his wife with my sister (unbeknownst to me), then he stole stuff from her and turned around and sold it to me. His wife, by the way, had been a friend of mine since we were four years old.

All situations were forgiven, put behind me and I went on, hopefully wiser but also realizing that at times it wasn't my fault. I also realized that by carrying the hurt and sorrow with me, I was only hurting myself.

And where am I now? In a much happier place in life than I could have ever imagined.

Perhaps it doesn't compare in the least to what happened to you, but this is the only life I've led and the only examples I have to offer.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*blinks* Wait, wait, hold the phone.

dkw was serious? Sorry, Sopwith, I thought it was a joke. Actually, I'm confused now.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Egad. Sopwith has basically had my life. Creepy.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
It was a semi-serious joke. A joke in that I don’t believe that more than one God exists, so no, I don’t believe that one God is making rules for another God to follow. Serious in that I do believe that God made/makes the rules that the LDS folks believe God has to follow. ‘Twould be one of the major disagreements between LDS and non-LDS Christianity.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Ok, that's how I took it.

I'm still confused by Sopwith's taking offense at my amusement. Sorry I offended, but unsure how I did so.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Sorry to have creeped you out, Tom. Wasn't intentional.

I only wanted to illustrate that a person could carry around a lot of hurt or they could set down the burden and go on with their life. That a person could forgive.

So what has God done to help me? He got me through all of that and out the other side, in a much, much better place. Somewhere along the way, through all of that, I found my faith. And it's not such a difficult thing. One just has to believe.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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Well, who's making the rules God has to follow? I wanna worship THAT guy!

---

quote:

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Do Mormons believe Christians, non-LDS Christians, are quaint or something? Underachievers?

---

No. Not at all. Just without the whole story. That some plain and precious truths had been lost, and were restored by revelation in our day.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Withholds comment so as not to offend.

Edit to add: It's odd, but as soon as I wrote this, I felt shame. Shame at not taking a stand for my faith, shame for worrying more about being allowed to participate in a forum than in my own beliefs of faith.

My faith is based on the Old and New Testament, the teachings of my Church and those, wiser than I, who have taken the time to help me understand.

I'm sorry, but I can't in any way say that what I and others have believed is not the full story. I do not believe that Joseph Smith was given a new dispensation by God. I do not believe that the Mormon Church was divinely created.

Folks, please understand, that from my non-LDS perspective, the Holy Bible is full and complete as it stands.

If this gets me banned, so be it.

[ October 16, 2003, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yeah, this is usually the part of the conversation where everyone puts on their polite face. That's okay.

Added: Sopwith, that would never, ever get you banned. Or shunned. Or even tickled.

I think one of the disadvantages of Hatrack becoming closer and closer as a community (and I'll take it, don't get me wrong) is that the topics that are traditionally rude to bring up in a social setting - religion and politics - become verboten because of that same closeness.

I love the community part, but it would be a shame if someone is afraid to voice their opinion on Hatrack. I mean, that's why I come here - because bringing up fiery topics like this are much more risk-laden and occasionally gauche in real life.

[ October 16, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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I'm sorry, but I can't in any way say that what I and others have believed is not the full story. I do not believe that Joseph Smith was given a new dispensation by God. I do not believe that the Mormon Church was divinely created.

Folks, please understand, that from my non-LDS perspective, the Holy Bible is full and complete as it stands.

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Many theologians say that, even if you believe in the power of intercessory prayer, such a trial is doomed to failure because it "puts God to the test" - and there are clear instructions in the Bible not to do this.

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Interesting stuff.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Yeah, so anyway, what DOES lead a Christian to believe that today's version of the Bible (plus whichever translation you choose) is God's authoritative and complete text? (adding the BoM for those of you to whom that would apply)
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
"Many theologians say that, even if you believe in the power of intercessory prayer, such a trial is doomed to failure because it "puts God to the test" - and there are clear instructions in the Bible not to do this."

Ooh, now that's fun. So apparently God would rather heart surgery patients DIE than to answer prayers for their well-being, because God views the study of whether or not said prayer is effective in aiding people as being arrogant and testy. Is this another example of how God teaches us to be better people by allowing us to suffer?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Maybe it's another example of this life being filled with crap, and the beginning of greatness lying in humility. "Don't test the Lord your God" appears in many places.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Sopwith: Am happy for you.
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
Frisco:"Well, who's making the rules God has to follow? I wanna worship THAT guy!"

I'm glad Jacare already answered this question, but I thought I'd second the answer.

Mormons believe that there are some truths inherent in the universe, some universal, unbreakable laws. Not unbreakable in the sense that you will get in trouble for breaking them, but in the sense that nothing can happen in contravention of them. These are "natural" laws. Nobody "made" them. Just like, at our core, nobody "made" us.

God cannot do certain things because they are contrary to the nature of Godhood. He cannot choose to do them. They are impossible, even for him.

We cannot become like God without certain experiences, knowledge, etc. It just can't be done. We also can't become like God without some degree of suffering. If God saved us from all suffering, he would be severely limiting our potential for happiness.

UofUlawguy
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
I wanted to make a separate post for this, just because I think it is such an important concept.

Because Mormons believe that the core element of each human being (called the "intelligence") was not created and has always existed, we have an answer for those that assign responsibility to God for everything that happens or exists.

There are three kinds of actors in the world. God "causes" some things. Satan/Lucifer and his cohorts "cause" some things. And people, because they exist independently and have inherent free will, "cause" a lot of things. In addition, a lot of things happen because of natural processes that are not prevented by any of the three kinds of actors.

UofUlawguy
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
If God is unable to act most of the time due to restrictions concerning the authenticity of free will, what enables Him to be an "actor" some of the time?

Wouldn't any action of God's violate those restrictions?
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
CV:"If God is unable to act most of the time. . ."

Here's the problem. Although there are restrictions based on immutable laws, these only limit certain actions (by God or anyone else). God is free to act in most situations, as are we all.

The only limitations free agency places on God are that he can't literally "Force" anyone to do anything, and he can't remove the ability to make a moral choice. At least, those are the only ones I can think of at the moment.

Most other limitations have to do with God avoiding taking certain actions that he knows will actually harm us, on balance and in the long run.

UofUlawguy
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

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The only limitations free agency places on God are that he can't literally "Force" anyone to do anything, and he can't remove the ability to make a moral choice.

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Because Mormons believe that the core element of each human being (called the "intelligence") was not created and has always existed, we have an answer for those that assign responsibility to God for everything that happens or exists.

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Say I'm a Christian who's not very good with his money. I borrow too much and I spend too much on things that I don't really need. But I ALWAYS give ten percent of my earnings to the Lord. Always. So let's say I have a similar story to Kat's and one time I couldn't make my bills at all, and then God somehow gets me some more money to meet my needs in return for being such a relentless tither.

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Abr. 3: 22
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

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Cal: I should have said generally won't. I just mean that when to or not to is up to the Lord, and he uses his infinite wisdom to decide to help or not.
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
I know this is a tired and well worn point, but why do you believe this document? Why not believe an ancient sumerian text about demons?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Because Joseph Smith was a prophet, and because it makes sense to me in my head, and because I've prayed about portions and felt good about them.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Am I Cal because you are Kat?

Cuz I don't like Cal much. I'll write out Katharina if you wish (though it has, like, a gazillion more characters than Caleb) if it'll keep away the Cals.

Though I'll take Cal over Caylo ANY day. Never use that one.

Saruman -

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A know a friend who was having trouble making ends meet, and had decide if he should give tithing. His car insurance was exactly the same as his tithing at $350 dollars and he had to choose which to pay. He finally decided on tithing. The next Saturday an older friend calls him to her house and insists that she felt the need to give him money (she felt the Lord needed her to give him money). She handed over an envlope with exactly $350 dollars in it without knowing anything about his situation, making him able to keep up on his payments.

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Verse 29: Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Verse 30: All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

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NOTE: Doctrine and Covenants consists of writings of Joseph Smith (and a few other latter-day prophets) that LDS have been accepted as canonical (i.e. revealed of God).

EDIT: stupid imported footnotes.

[ October 16, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, no offense intended. It just means you are on the march to becoming C, kind of like Jon Boy went from Jon Boy to JB to J. It just means I'm lazy.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Robespierre, I think it's unfair of you to ask so doubtfully about a Mormon's acceptance of the BoM as a scriptural text, especially when you made no attempt at responding to my earlier question(s) concerning the "wholeness" or "completeness" of the Bible itself.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
<--Saruman

I believe somebody said earlier that the miracle stories like this are quite rare. All I can say is that God must've decided that it was important to grant a miracle in those situations. I really don't know why.

It seems that a lot of this discussion has been about what God does for people in this life. It is my belief that the most important things God does for us are the things that extend far beyond this life, blessings we might not receive until after we die. The point of this life is to prove what kind of people we are. When bad things happen, do we curse God and die? Do we give up? Or do we keep going, no matter how difficult it may seem, because we believe that somewhere down the road, it'll all be worth it?

What does God do for me? He gives me the inner strength to keep going when I don't think I can. He provides a means of salvation.

Katie: That's Velvet J to you.

[ October 16, 2003, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 

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The primary distinction between this view and your ordinary run-of-the-mill Christian like dkw is that they believe that nothing exists which God did not create except God himself.

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Do Mormons believe Christians, non-LDS Christians, are quaint or something? Underachievers?

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No. Not at all. Just without the whole story.

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See, this is always where you lose me. The implication, to me anyway, is that all the other religions are ignorant (as in, lacking pertinent information.) This also seemed needlessly insulting. "No," would have sufficed. Or, "No, we just have different beliefs." Though, from the answer, quaint would kind of describe non-LDS. Old fashioned and without the current updates. Cute, but wrong.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Kat(harina), what leads you to believe that this life is "filled with crap"?

You seem to imply that it's a fundamental part of human existence to have really negative experiences.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"It seems that a lot of this discussion has been about what God does for people in this life."

I would wager that this is because no one on this board can testify as to what God has done for them in the next life.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Has anyone been watching Joan of Arcadia? So far, this is the best take in God I've ever heard of. However, I do wonder why God needs Joan's help so much and none of her other family memebers. I mean, if he asked Joan, then a brother, then a parent, you know, spread it around, then move out to the larger community at large, I'd be more comfortable with it, rather than thinking that God has a couple of favorites and is hiding from the rest of us.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Kayla, it's kind of like how Christians believe that Jews have part of the truth, but they're missing the part about the Messiah having already come. I wouldn't say that makes them quaint, old-fashioned, or cute but wrong.

Tom, that's why I mentioned that He gives me the strength to go on when I don't think that I can.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
They aren't missing that fact. They don't believe Jesus was the son of God. They have different beliefs. They aren't ignorant of the facts. They aren't "missing" any information.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
J: But that's so lo-o-o-o-ong.

Caleb:

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Kat(harina), what leads you to believe that this life is "filled with crap"?

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Well, not exclusively, certainly, but there's lot of crap that I would prefer to not have to deal with. You know, the problem of pain kind of thing. There's lots of pain. It just comes with the territory.

Kayla: That's why it's the part where everyone puts on the polite face. Someone asked. If someone has the wherewithall to ask, they deserve a complete answer.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Kayla, it seems that you view religion in a relativistic sense, whereas I view it in an absolute sense. In other words, I don't think we're going to agree on this.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That brings up a question. Is it rude to believe you are right and other people are wrong?

Is it rude to express it?

Depends on context. This is what I meant when I said Hatrack is almost getting too nice. Honestly, this probably WOULD be rude in certain contexts, but it's a religion thread on a debate forum. Honesty about self trumps polite outer agreement.

[ October 16, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
It isn't rude when someone asks, but if you just walk into someone's living room and loudly declare the occupants to be dead-on wrong that is pretty rude. Simple enough.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 

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That brings up a question. Is it rude to believe you are right and other people are wrong?

Is it rude to express it?

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I would wager that this is because no one on this board can testify as to what God has done for them in the next life.

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Yeah, the memories are kind of fuzzy.

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Kayla, it's kind of like how Christians believe that Jews have part of the truth, but they're missing the part about the Messiah having already come. I wouldn't say that makes them quaint, old-fashioned, or cute but wrong.

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I say this with a and great respect: It's mutual, to be sure.

jeniwren, I don't think that's the best analogy. We're on page 8 of an ongoing discussion about God. Sooner or later, we had to get to the touchy stuff. Actually, I'm impressed with the fact that everyone is pretty much staying both calm and open.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Just give it time.
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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Robespierre, I think it's unfair of you to ask so doubtfully about a Mormon's acceptance of the BoM as a scriptural text, especially when you made no attempt at responding to my earlier question(s) concerning the "wholeness" or "completeness" of the Bible itself.

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Just give it time.

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Optimist, hmm?
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Maybe prophet?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*snickers*
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Kayla –I don’t normally watch much TV, but a friend started dragging me over to her house to watch Joan of Arcadia, and I’m loving it.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Actually, I'd like to watch Joan of Arcadia. But, like most new shows that look interesting, it's on Friday nights.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I'm mostly not watching it on Friday nights. Is it okay for you to tape stuff and watch later?

Edit: Not that I'm evangelizing for the show. I'm just curious.

[ October 16, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
dkw, that's one of those "probably technically ok, but violates the spirit of the Sabbath" things. So I don't; but I know some people who do.

Of course, I'm practically an apostate anyway. I not only have the Internet *gasp* on my computer, I own a television!
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

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Yeah, so anyway, what DOES lead a Christian to believe that today's version of the Bible (plus whichever translation you choose) is God's authoritative and complete text? (adding the BoM for those of you to whom that would apply)

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Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

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Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also...
For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

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VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha?There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

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And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

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So, if dkw is "ordinary run-of-the-mill" does that make LDS "extreme" at either end of that specturm? Or is it more of a "she's normal, we're special" kind of thing? It seemed kind of insulting to me. Just thought I'd mention it.

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"Well, who's making the rules God has to follow? I wanna worship THAT guy!"
That would be the God the non-LDS believers on this thread believe in.

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Some of that truth is undoubtedly hidden knowledge which shall yet come to light and some is to be found by seeking out the best books and learning by study and faith.

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Jacare, you missed the basic point by quoting the text in question. Any writer can include passages which claim his/her writing to be the word of God, etc. etc. The question is, why do you blindly trust the *people* who wrote these texts?

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I can find no meaning in that sentence. What is hidden knowledge? Who hid it? Who discovered the knowledge in the first place? What in your day to day life makes you believe in supernatural knowledge?

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Jacare, you missed the basic point by quoting the text in question.

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He didn't, though. In answer to the question of why some Christians believe the Bible (ancient scripture and revelation), for some Christians, it is because modern scripture and revelation confirm it.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Oh dear. I guess my comment could have seemed a little snarky. I didn’t mean it to be, and I apologize.

But I kind of like the idea of being “an ordinary run-of-the-mill Christian,” so if that was your attempt at being borderline rude you’ll have to work on it a bit.
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
It is certain that there has been zero confirmation of prophecy coming from holy books. If there were, religions would be touted as successfully predicting the future, which is something that only science can do.

Jacare, I understand that you were answering someone else's question. I was jumping into the conversation.

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Why should I trust an article in nature which says that some funny-looking purple frogs who haven't changed much in 60million years have been found?

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Because this is a confirmable claim! Either there are purple frogs in India, or there are not. If one is found, the article is proven correct. You could possibly go there yourself and *see* the frog in question. However, you cannot *see* whether jesus actually rose from the dead. The tricky thing about these religious texts is they have no bearing on reality. There is nothing in them that can confirm or disprove their "truths." Prophecies made are vague and non-specific. Some details, such as the structure of the universe(think firmament of the sky and pillars of the earth), are not to be taken literally, while some are the exact word of God.

[ October 16, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Robespierre ]
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
For the record, I wasn't asking "what proves, to you, that your holy texts are holy texts?".

I already know their answers for that.

I was asking about the completion of the Bible; specifically, I think that there were many texts and "gospels" written during the time of Christ that never made it into the final volume, and we know that changes have been made to the relatively few texts that DID make it in--couple this with the fact that Christianity has only had a Bible for less than half of the time that's passed since Christ left this plane of existence, noting also that up until the last few hundred years the majority of Christians could not even read...

So when a Christian states that the Bible is the wholly inspired and complete truth of God, the one acceptable document (collection of documents, rather) through which God chose to reveal himself to the world... I'm forced to ask: why do you believe that the Bible fits that definition? When did God ever even refer to the Bible itself, much less give it His stamp of approval?

Jacare's answer, of course, was acceptable. Because apparently Mormons haven't closed the book on the issue, so to speak. Although I'd be somewhat interested (not invested enough to research ) to find out exactly how a document gets added in to their scripture list, and how often this has happened, if ever. Most likely it's through revelation though, anyway, in which case I'd have pretty much nothing to say.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

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It is certain that there has been zero confirmation of prophecy coming from holy books. If there were, religions would be touted as successfully predicting the future, which is something that only science can do.

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Like. . .what? Phrenology? Alchemy? Come to think of it, astrology is a 'science,' too.

Sniff the phlogistons, baby, and see the light.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

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Because this is a confirmable claim! Either there are purple frogs in India, or there are not. If one is found, the article is proven correct.

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Sniff the phlogistons, baby, and see the light.

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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Actually, all that would prove is that there are purple frogs there NOW.

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Like. . .what? Phrenology? Alchemy? Come to think of it, astrology is a 'science,' too.

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which is worth more empiricism or experience?

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but that I have subjugated them to logic and reason, and they have been validated by personal emotional experience.

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But I think the Foundation series was fiction.

What aspects of the future does science predict?

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They're actually predicting the present. That's nothing like predicting the actual future.

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Neurotransmitters control emotions.

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light in certain known quantities at certain frequencies called quanta

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It does however, have the cleaning power of oxygen!

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You're quoting infomercials at us?

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Science has a monopoly on correctly predicting the future.

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There is nothing about religion that is able to be confirmed or denied by expirimentation.

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Science's bias is on that-which-is-already-known.

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Not least because they are not creating knowledge as much as they are guessing at unkown knowledge, but also because most theories are proven WRONG anyway. THAT'S the scientific method.

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You won't find that HEAT bends light (though it does, I'm fairly certain) because you aren't testing for it.

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How do you think people gain faith?

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There is rationale and logic in every believer's belief. . . just because YOU can't see the logic doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Robespierre, why is logic or scientific proof so important to you?

Could it be because you have faith in them?

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1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

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2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

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I'd love to see science predict what will happen to me when I die.

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I'm not sure if you really think frequencies are quanta, or have just phrased this in a way that confuses me.

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Although I'd be somewhat interested (not invested enough to research ) to find out exactly how a document gets added in to their scripture list, and how often this has happened, if ever. Most likely it's through revelation though, anyway, in which case I'd have pretty much nothing to say.

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I believe I have 'experienced' God. I do not believe the arguments that my experiences are psychologically induced because they are weak arguments in comparison to the affirmative experiences.

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Logic dictates then, that I believe in God.

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When was the last time? I mean, are the official declarations considered scripture?

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Are they part of the D&C, though? Section 131 was in the back as an appendix for a while before being incorporated into the D&C.

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When was the last time? I mean, are the official declarations considered scripture?

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Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator, and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord.

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Until 1921 the "Lectures on Faith" were printed in almost all the English-language editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, and in many, but not all, non-English editions. An introductory statement in the 1921 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants explains that the lectures were deleted because "they were never presented to nor accepted by the Church as being otherwise than theological lectures or lessons" (see Doctrine and Covenants Editions).

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It isn't in the canon yet, but you can bet your tushie it's scripture.

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Do you believe that faith is genetic? That it is a product of . . . sunlight and certain environmental factors, perhaps?

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*applauds*

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There is rationale and logic in every believer's belief. . . just because YOU can't see the logic doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Most of all, Science's bias is on that-which-is-already-known. To say that "the scientist in question creates knowledge of future events" is really quite false. Not least because they are not creating knowledge as much as they are guessing at unknown knowledge, but also because most theories are proven WRONG anyway. THAT'S the scientific method. To rule out wrong possibilities until a verifiable solution is found--by virtue of guessing correctly.

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That the scientific method is the only way to find accurate information.

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The heat is causing the AIR around it to move, creating different densities.

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I think people gain faith by not understanding the world around them. They create(or find) a comforting set of beliefs to make the world seem more friendly.

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I've been asking for this logic now for 10 posts, so far no one has responded....

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You die, thats what happens. Nothing. Proven time and time again. Now of course, we cannot prove that your "soul" doesn't go somewhere and have a party with other souls, but without any evidence for this, we must discount it as fantasy.

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Maybe I was a little murky there, but I am not going to go into a full description of quantum physics.

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There IS actually some evidence that faith may be genetic, believe it or not; they've found different congenital brain structures in people with strong supernatural beliefs than in people who are avowed skeptics.

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For those things which are NOT measurable, precise, or observable, science is of little value.

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Exactly!
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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Serendipity, inductive reasoning, and other methods have led to many important discoveries and knowledge.

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Again I wonder if this is poor comprehension or poor phrasing. This is, at best, a severe oversimplification.

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Please explain then, the MANY religious scientists.

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But science, being a study conducted by limited, mortal humans, is fallible! Any claim that it is not enters the realm of your second definition of faith.

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"Murky" is a good description of a lot of your scientific explanations. Oh, and you need not start explaining quantum physics to me. Until fairly recently, I was a science teacher. I have a degree in chemistry. And if I really have a problem, I'll go ask my dad, an internationally known quantum physicist.

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For those things which are NOT measurable, precise, or observable, science is of little value.

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"The last function of reason is to recognize there are an inifinite of things which surpass it." Blaine Pascal

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No one claims science to be infallible.

The current theories are only current until someone finds evidence of nature acting in a way that is contrary to these theories.

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Actually, Robespierre, I felt that you were being incredibly insulting. I thought my response was rather restrained. But since you clearly were offended, I apologize.
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
Accepted. And I will apologize if i said anything that specifically antagonized you. I am keen to keep the conversation from flying into ranting and yelling. I am new to this board, and I have the impression that this board is a calm one, with little to no name-calling and a laid back clientel. This is exactly the environment I have been looking for. Plenty of smart people around too.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
I'll be taking that credit for being a prophet now, thank you.

Again, I did not mean to suggest that heat from the Sun could bend the light passing by it... I already said that once, let's not cover it again.

The POINT of what I was saying is that Science is fundamentally flawed insofar as it is only able to uncover knowledge that it is LOOKING FOR.

Hence its lack of value in a discussion of things which cannot, at present, be measured.

Your assertion that "anything that is not observable, is of no consequence" is what's really at issue here, seeing as how about 90% of the world's population would disagree with you. That, too, is an "appeal to authority" in a way, but I think you're a bit too comfortable claiming that all of these people are simply mistaken without having any *ahem* scientific evidence to back up that position.

Can you show, scientifically, that that which is not observable is of no consequence? What is 'consequence', anyway?

Ideally anything that is real ought to be observable, but you cannot forget that simply BEING an active observer discounts your ability to observe objectively, and there's nothing to suggest that human beings are ABLE to observe all things that are real.

The Big Bang Theory, for example. It fits the facts and it's useful to know about it, but in the end it is not provable. This would be an example of something with value that cannot be observed.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 

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No one claims science to be infallible.

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Everything you've told us about being helped by God is a matter of optimistic outlook.

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Can you show, scientifically, that that which is not observable is of no consequence? What is 'consequence', anyway?

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The Big Bang Theory, for example. It fits the facts and it's useful to know about it, but in the end it is not provable. This would be an example of something with value that cannot be observed.

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but I think you're a bit too comfortable claiming that all of these people are simply mistaken

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Educated people had known the earth was flat for about 2000 years or so.

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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So what exactly are we supposed to be talking about here?

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Well, no, 500 years ago many uneducated thought the earth was flat. Educated people had known the earth was flat for about 2000 years or so.

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I began by asking why those who believe, accept these texts as absolute truth.

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Well, I have a co-worker who tells me that the earth is no more than 6000 years old.

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originally posted by Robespierre
You die, thats what happens. Nothing. Proven time and time again. Now of course, we cannot prove that your "soul" doesn't go somewhere and have a party with other souls, but without any evidence for this, we must discount it as fantasy.

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originally posted by Robespierre
The greeks and egyptians figured it out. However, when the dark ages rolled around, this knowledge was lost to superstition and religion for 1000 years. Educated and uneducated alike thought the earth was flat until the 1500's.

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From the foregoing, it’s not surprising that flat-earthism has been associated with Christianity since the beginning. Many of the Fathers of the Church were flat-earthers, and they developed a system with which to oppose the Greek astronomy then becoming popular. As late as 548 A.D., the Egyptian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes was vigorously defending the flat earth in his book Christian Topography. But Cosmas was fighting a losing battle, and the Ptolemaic system, based on a spherical earth, rapidly took over. By the 12th century (despite Edward Blick’s implication to the contrary), the flat-earth concept was essentially a dead letter in the West. Emphasis added.

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Can science learn anything valuable from scriptural texts (Christian or otherwise)?

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but come in the form of opening new scientific frontiers or suggesting ways of going about 'doing' science that aren't currently employed?

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Many of the Fathers of the Church were flat-earthers, and they developed a system with which to oppose the Greek astronomy then becoming popular. As late as 548 A.D., the Egyptian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes was vigorously defending the flat earth in his book Christian Topography.

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The greeks and egyptians figured it out. However, when the dark ages rolled around, this knowledge was lost to superstition and religion for 1000 years.

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The Copernicus/Galileo disputes w/ the Church were about whether the sun rotated around the earth or the earth rotated around the sun, not about whether the earth was flat.

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No one here brought up Copernicus/Galileo until you. Why do you mention this well known fact?
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Robespierre, how exactly does God help you? Or does he at all?
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
I say that there is not a God, and that he does not help me in any way, as he does not exist.

Yeah, I get it, its the title of the thread. I thought we were cool about were the discussion was going though.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Heh, just saw my typo. Flat, round, what's the difference .

The facts you were backing your argument up with were wrong, even though you had some others right.
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 
The flat/round thing began when I said this:

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500 years ago most people thought the earth was flat. Would you say the Comubus was arrogant or "too comfortable"?

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originally posted by Robespierre
However, I have responded to observable data, and changed my view on the subject.

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I’ll omit my long-winded reply with more evidence, then.

Why is observable data the only proper grounding for truth? This is the part of your argument I think people have the most problem with.

Dagonee

[ October 17, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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Why is observable data the only proper grounding for truth?

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How else can something be verified as true?

It seems that to ask the question, is to state the answer.

To be sure, it is possible to simply accept something as true, without observing it at all. However, there would be no way of knowing if you were correct or not. You may think your idea is true, but have no way of knowing if it is or not.
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
The problem, Rob, is that you're using Science--or the existence of science, really--to come to a conclusion about the non-existence of God. Now, I'm totally open to the possibility that there may not be a God, but as you yourself have argued, science cannot be used to interpret something for which we have no scientific data. Ergo, to come to a SCIENTIFIC conlusion about the non-existence of God is rather silly.

To say "science can't see it, therefore it does not exist" is as unscientific as you can get. You'd have to start from the assumption that modern science can see EVERYTHING, and then you'd have to PROVE that it can already see everything, and then you'd have to provide evidence showing that God does not exist. None of these can be done, which is why your blanket statements asserting that Science proves God does not exist are faulty. What you CAN say is that "I don't believe science has ever encountered any data that would support the existence of God".

I was just joking about the help thing, sort of. You should recognize that this discussion, by virtue of its subject matter, involves primarily those individuals who DO believe in a God, and you should flavor your posts respectfully keeping that in mind.

Respectfully would not include suggesting that all who believe in God are illogical OR unscientific. Naturally every individual sees their own beliefs as logical, or they would not believe them. If it is your intent to convince them that their beliefs are illogical, you'll need to prove to them with evidence that their beliefs are unfounded, rather than claiming that science-in-general proves them wrong. Especially because science-in-general really has nothing to say about the existence of God other than the fact that it "can't prove anything one way or the other".
 

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Posted by Caleb Varns (Member # 946) on :
 
Which is not to say that Science couldn't EVENTUALLY prove or disprove the existence of God, I should add.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
See, Rob, by your argument, Columbus claiming the world to be round would be predicting the future.

I still think he was predicting the present.

But if we could just find the formulas for psychohistory........
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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To say "science can't see it, therefore it does not exist" is as unscientific as you can get.

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Now, I'm totally open to the possibility that there may not be a God, but as you yourself have argued, science cannot be used to interpret something for which we have no scientific data. Ergo, to come to a SCIENTIFIC conlusion about the non-existence of God is rather silly.

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Especially because science-in-general really has nothing to say about the existence of God other than the fact that it "can't prove anything one way or the other".

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Logic, however, does NOT make predictions about what you believe.

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But you can NEVER prove that lying is a sin. Or that Jesus was the son of God. These sort of things are outside the world of logic

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originally posted by Robespierre
How else can something be verified as true?

It seems that to ask the question, is to state the answer.

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To be sure, it is possible to simply accept something as true, without observing it at all. However, there would be no way of knowing if you were correct or not. You may think your idea is true, but have no way of knowing if it is or not.

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At this point you’d be hard-pressed to prove that someone name Albert Einstein existed and came up with the two theories of relativity.

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But to say that this method relies only on observable data is not true – it relies on other persons’ accounts of observed data.

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I totally agree with you, but who said that?

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we cannot prove that your "soul" doesn't go somewhere and have a party with other souls, but without any evidence for this, we must discount it as fantasy.

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You are misplacing the burden of proof. The burden lies on the shoulders of believers. Science does not need to prove that something doesn't exist. Those who say this thing does exist, need to provide positive evidence that it does.

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"science can't see it, therefore it does not exist"

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we cannot prove that your "soul" doesn't go somewhere and have a party with other souls, but without any evidence for this, we must discount it as fantasy.

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but it is you who have suggested that knowledge apart from science is irrelevant.

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Belief in God, as agreed earlier, is something that requires Faith #2.

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to come to a SCIENTIFIC conlusion about the non-existence of God is rather silly.

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2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

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It would seem the the goal of those of you disagreeing with me has been to attack me on a semantic level, without addressing the substance of what I am saying.

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That is correct. I would ask for someone to provide one example of this knowledge which is apart from science. This is what I have been asking all along, talk to me about why you believe what you do. What is there that you think exists outside of science, that can be "true"?

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Your first stament is kind of confusing me, are you asking for something that people believe that is "outside of science" or something that matters that exists "outside of science"? Sorry.

As for faith in God, it does exist copmletely independ from science, or at least mine doesn't. I can sympathize with you here because I do know people who believe because they were told to, or other rather silly reasons and it's always difficult to deal with. Most people here do not belief because someone told them to though, most people here have very good reasons for belief (some of which I'm sure they aren't comfortable sharing). The way I came to belief was through scientific method. Starting with a hypothesis and then testing it. Repeatability was also key, as well as outside influences. I can tell you right now, I acknowledge the possibility that I am wrong, but I feel comfortable enough in the truth of my opinion to act on what it as if it were fact. Because really (as has been pointed out) there is no fact, or at least no facts can be proved completely without some starting assumptions (like what we witness is true).

Hobbes
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Robespierre, what you probably aren’t recognizing, (because you’re fairly new here, but we won’t hold that against you ) is that most of the folks on this forum aren’t interested in debating whether or not science can prove or disprove the existence of God. That’s a tedious discussion, and we’ve all had it before.

There’s also more than one of us who get irritated by people who think that anyone who practices a religion must not be familiar with the scientific method or must automatically be hostile toward science. That might not be what you believe, but it is definitely the image you’re projecting.

There isn’t anyone on Hatrack, as far as I know, who takes the six-day creation account in Genesis literally. We have dozens of different ways of looking at scripture represented, and if you’d like to start a thread about that I’m sure it would get a lot of action.

You see, we have many different flavors of religious belief represented here, and sometimes we like to discuss and compare the details. That’s part of what this thread was about. And we can’t discuss the details of our respective faiths if people keep barging in and demanding we prove we’re not loony for having faith in the first place.

I hope you’ll hang around and participate in the discussion. But watch for the subtleties, okay?

[ October 17, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

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originally posted by Robespierre

I could show you the original copies of the papers written by him,

How can you prove he wrote them?

corrolate those with examples of his handwritting,

How do we know that’s his handwriting?

show you motion pictures of him,

Again, how do we know those movies are of him?

have you interview those who worked with him, etc.

Ahh, so eyewitness account is an acceptable form of proof? Excellent.

But in the end, it all comes down to observable data. Of which the bible has none. The original point here was me questioning the holy texts and asking for evidence of their truths.

Well, the Catholic church at least has a continuum of leaders (the popes) that go all the way back to the time of Christ, one after the other with no breaks or gaps in the historical record. St. Peter, the first pope, was a witness to Christ’s miracles and to the events of the gospels and Acts. There are non-biblical accounts of some of the events in the New Testament dating back to the time of Christ.

Each pope in turn has upheld the legitimacy of the scriptures. OK, it goes back 2000 years, so the provenance is not as easily established as a movie of Albert Einstein. But there are eyewitness accounts believed by more people throughout history than have ever heard of Albert Einstein.

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It would seem the the goal of those of you disagreeing with me has been to attack me on a semantic level, without addressing the substance of what I am saying.

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HA haha ha haa haaaaah....

hahahahaha
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ha ha
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haaaaa....
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Welcome to Hatrack.



Anyway Rob, saying that you have physical proof that Einstein existed is fine, but how do you know that you're not a vegetable, and everything in your mind is just something you thought up while lying in the bed? It's a far cry, but the point is that belief in the exactness of science requires quite a bit of "faith" as well. I think that's the point Dag is trying to make.

[ October 17, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
 

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Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
 
Mmkay. I've followed this thread but barely.

On my college's forum, someone got started talking about prayer as well. And someone posted this article by Marion Zimmer Bradley (author, now deceased). Briefly, it discusses why some prayers might not be answered, and what answers to prayers might not be utilized.

Or something. Anyhow. Read it.

* Wanders out *
 

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Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
 
I adore being able to kill threads just by glancing in their general direction.

I guess this thread was already dying, or something.

*hits thread with a lead pipe*
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
*bite*
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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most of the folks on this forum aren’t interested in debating whether or not science can prove or disprove the existence of God.

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This is an easy way for me to step out of this conversation. Not because I don't want to answer each and every post which challenges me, but because I have not the time to keep up with you guys. Take this as a white flag, or whatever you like. I don't want to argue with you if I am being a troll.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Of course by saying that, you're become an non-troll-entity.

[ October 18, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: mackillian ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Actually, Rob, I wouldn't consider you a troll - the conversation went a certain way, and I for one was enjoying the back and forth.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Robespierre, I didn’t call you a troll, and I certainly didn’t mean to chase you off. I hope you’ll reconsider.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"This is kind of funny. Everyone around me knows what a pessimist I am. I don't think I'm EVER optimistic about anything EXCEPT God."

Perhaps it is because you are naturally a pessimist that you're unable to be optimistic about anything but an idealized higher power?
 

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Posted by Robespierre (Member # 5779) on :
 

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I didn’t call you a troll

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I realize this. I just didn't want to be that guy who couldn't let the issue drop. I understand that the god Vs science thing must have been discussed like umpteen million times by now on this forum. I still want to discuss it of course. Plus, on the weekends I don't have much time to keep up with everything.

Another thought on this subject. I would assume that not everyone on this board believes in God. That would be highly unusual for the inter-web. I was wondering at first, "where is the backup?" I had two thoughts on why there were no other 'rackers posting on my side of the issue.
One: They stopped reading this thread after page one, as they didn't want to discuss the ins and outs of canon law.
Two: They have already been through these discussions and were sick of them.

So anyways, if anyone wants to keep going on this topic, I have no problem with it, but it will have to wait 'till tomorrow.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Or it could be

Three: There have been at least 5 atheists/agnostics/other non-religious folk participating in this thread in the last 3 days but they a) don’t think this is a simple two sided theist vs. atheist debate and thus don’t feel the need to join your “team,” b) don’t agree with your specific points, and/or c) know that the arguments you’re using don’t apply to most of the theists on this board.

or

Four: They were posting, and you mistook them for creationists. (Hi Caleb )

But I should know better than to speculate on other people’s motives for posting/not posting. I’m glad you decided to continue. Might you be interested in a somewhat more nuanced discussion of the relationship between religion and science? There are a lot of people who don’t consider it a simple “vs.” issue.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I know I didn't post for ALL of the above reasons. I figured that if Robespierre wanted to poke people with sticks, he could do it on his own. *grin*
 

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Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
 
That could so be taken the wrong way, Tom.


 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I'd apologize for reviving this thread. Except this link seemed to me to belong here.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
And here's one that actually deals with the original topic: Bartering with God.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
*laugh* For some reason, I find both those links remarkably humorous AND unnerving.
 

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