quote:Interesting....
On the other hand it could cause people to only associate with others who have proven themselves "worthy" through the test.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:I am in total agreement. The government cannot eliminate racial stereotypes. The government cannot make people think like americans instead of hyphenated-americans. This is a cultural issue that laws cannot touch.
Thus, racism in this country is not a national issue but a racial issue that each 'culture' and person in that culture, the white culture and the black culture, must resolve for themselves exclusive to each other until they see themselves as part of a cultural group that is determined not by skin color but by something else.
quote:Yeah right, try switching rich and poor in that sentence to get closer to reality. The prevailing message out there to minorities is that some rich white guy in a skyscraper is looting your money. That they only reason they are poor is because white people have an exclusive club called "being rich" and they won't let anyone else join. The rich are constantly villanized as the cause of all these problems.
The rich fear the poor will rob them or hurt them or are only out to "get" them.
quote:Not at all. Its the fact that so many people are afraid to say that race doesn't matter that causes the problem. When the screaming causes the government to create racist programs like Afirmative Action, and people are afraid to discuss it lest they be labelled racist, then we have another problem.
Fear breeds paranoia. Are we surprised they scream Racism?
quote:Actually, race does technically exist. It is just a subset we happen to pay more attention to than hair color or eye color. Perhaps because skin covers more of our bodies than hair (at least it does for most people). If we were mice, we might point out differences between white mice and brown mice.
Am I alone in thinking that race really is one of those things that technically doesn't exist and is not important and yet people have killed each other and limited each other over something that isn't real?
quote:One moment and that their not responsible for the sins of the past that may grease the wheels of the present in another moment.
It's the freedom to say that, Europeans became the dominant race because they got themselves there. [by hook or by crook, if need be]If a person works his way to the top shouldn't he get to enjoy the rewards? Would it be the same for a race?
quote:Heidegger has a conception of the world in which we are thrown in. His approach is much more complicated than that, but it's a compelling way to think of the human condition. We were throw in but there are no making excuses for any burdens we have to shoulder unnecessarily, but that it is critical that we not lie to ourselves about the world as it opens itself up to us. No amount of freedom that can be given by the government that can undue the fact that we have all been thrown into a position not of our choosing, with responsiblities not of our choosing, that I may be tall, or have breast cancer, or be poor, or white, any of it. My lot is that I've been thrown in to a complex situation where I have to address race, everyday.
many black people have a persecution complex.
quote:You've really gotten far from the logic tree on this. Now you are likening me to someone who witnessed a CRIME, the rape and murder of a little black girl, because I believe people should not be judged on their skin color. This is a good article on the subject of racism.
But I do think that you are just another David Cash.
quote:Please stop reading my mind.
They don't want to think because they are healthy and young.
quote:I have never argued that it could not be done for less. That is totally beside the point. Taking money from people, and giving it to those who did not earn it, is the equivalent of committing the crime, not just watching it.
It's the queer license to deny CT when she shows that there are variants of Universal Healthcare that could provide comparable service while costing less.
quote:And what exactly is the best way to help those in need? If I disagree with you, do I automatically become an accessory to rape and murder? As I said before, this topic is nearly impossible to discuss in a civil manner. No facts will deter those who have a preset idea on how the world works.
Yes, you do have a responsibility to help those in need
quote:This is what I saw first and I think what I responded to first. You go on to say, however:
For this reason, I believe racism in America to be a predominantly black issue that rests upon black people working out for themselves.
quote:This is valid, but completely different from what you said earlier.
Thus, racism in this country is not a national issue but a racial issue that each 'culture' and person in that culture, the white culture and the black culture, must resolve for themselves exclusive to each other until they see themselves as part of a cultural group that is determined not by skin color but by something else.
quote:I could almost swear this proves my point, that black people choose to define themselves primarily by skin color to a much greater degree than any other culture in the US. You can lay this down to x,y, or z, but I think the fact remains.
One of the more amusing features of my Costa Rican trip was hiking up Mt. Chirripo with these two lovely black ladies from New York City. They were -- unusually enough -- fairly wealthy, and raised in a "white" culture. But when Karyn and I became engrossed in conversation, her friend Rhonda interjected to remind Karyn that she was "speaking white," and Karyn immediately reverted to her pampered eubonics.
quote:Finish the thought, Stormy. True, Karyn and Rhonda do believe that they belong to a black culture, as proven by her learned eubonics -- but then consider why she believes it necessary to use eubonics to identify with the black race. Consider that this girl, raised in a "white" and wealthy environment, believes it necessary to mutate her speech in order to be her race.
I am not saying racism doesn't exist. My point is the exact opposite.
quote:
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One of the more amusing features of my Costa Rican trip was hiking up Mt. Chirripo with these two lovely black ladies from New York City. They were -- unusually enough -- fairly wealthy, and raised in a "white" culture. But when Karyn and I became engrossed in conversation, her friend Rhonda interjected to remind Karyn that she was "speaking white," and Karyn immediately reverted to her pampered eubonics.
These girls weren't raised in the ghetto. But the overwhelming (and all too accurate) belief that many of their race are raised in poverty -- not to mention other, even less savory assumptions -- have undoubtably been instrumental in the forming of their personalities. What part of their lives aren't touched by their skin? Legally, socially, economically, even sexually, these girls' lives have been shaped by the abundant expectations most of society has of their skin -- and I mean all of society, including and especially those of their own race.
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I could almost swear this proves my point, that black people choose to define themselves primarily by skin color to a much greater degree than any other culture in the US. You can lay this down to x,y, or z, but I think the fact remains.
quote:How about Zorro. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm stereotyping again, how racist of me. Whereas you weren't being racist at all, assuming that (white people?) all view Mexicans as dirty little slave-immigrants.
But when you picture a Mexican, who do you see?
quote:I'm not 'desperate to lay the blame' on anyone, I'm just pointing out a situation that I see and asking a question. I honestly, at this point, don't care. I can only treat people as I would like to be treated. If they don't like it, oh, well. Honestly, I expected a little better from you than to throw such accusations in my face, Lalo.
You seem desperate to lay the blame for black racial identity at the feet of those who use it exactly because society as a whole -- and that includes you and me, Stormy -- expects blacks to speak a certain way or idolize thugs and hos. No. You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk. Until you do that, I'm afraid I'm very unimpressed with your insistence that black identity evolved in a vacuum, and victimizes the open and accepting white culture.
quote:But why do I need to explain that? Must black people be black, Mexicans Mexican, or whatever? Isn't the goal of being color blind to not be black or brown or whatever, but just to be yourself without taking your skin color into consideration? Either the goal of having a color blind society is a valid goal, one that people can aspire to, or it's a foolish goal and perhaps we should all take pride in being white, black, brown, whatever and not expect others to see below our skin. If we are all indeed locked into being defined by our skin color, then there is no hope for rising above it, no?
You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk.
quote:Where did Storm say anything like that?
Until you do that, I'm afraid I'm very unimpressed with your insistence that black identity evolved in a vacuum, and victimizes the open and accepting white culture.
quote:Firstly, the issues of blacks and Mexicans are different. Blacks are defined only by skin color, whereas Mexicans are defined by their heritage.
You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:I would say the the dominant american culture is not white. Nor is it black. This is the root of the problem. We live in the same culture, the same cities, the same states. The culture is american.
I think it's easy for members of the dominant culture to come to believe that they are not conscious of race (and ethnicity), while minorities are, because ethnicity doesn't impact majority members to the same degree.
quote:There are no institutional solutions. The government cannot force people to think differently, nor should it be trying to. Any attempt at an institutional solution is going to make the problem worse for all involved.
Institutional solutions are harder to agree on.
quote:This is exactly the attitude that destroys race relations in this country. ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST! ALL.... oh.. wait..
Colorblind (cu-lor-blind, noun)—white people's best excuse for laying the blame for years of (ongoing) racism squarely at the feet of the minorities they continue to hold down today.
quote:I have seen no one make this claim. The point I have been harping most recently is government sanctioned racism. It is rampant, and widely accepted.
I was frankly astounded by the assertion that there is no racism in this country,
quote:This is very wrong. The framers specifically avoided race so as not to upset the southern colonies. It could be debated as to what was the most important issue to the founding fathers, but it was certainly not race.
Race has defined this country like nothing else in our history. It was the number one issue facing the framers of our Constitution,
quote:There seems to be the habitual problem in these race discussions of people arguing that racism DOES exist. Of course it exists. I don't think anyone here would tell you it does not. When those who want to eliminate racism are attacked and labeled as denying the problem, the entire discussion moves backward.
Then tell me that racism's dead in the United States.
quote:
you're saying that poor, poor whitey is now the victim (in essence).
quote:This whole attitude of those who want to ebrace and celebrate racism is destructive. Leto seems to be very quick to use a broad racial brush to talk about WHITEY. This complete ignorance of the real problem is what keeps this issue from getting serious attention. No one wants to talk about what the real problems are. Those who do, are racists or worse. Its off limits to most people to discuss reality when dealing with this issue.
However, your thread title alone singles out a specific type, your link backs up that specification, and you basically state flat-out that racism is a problem that needs to be solved by blacks, making it essentially not your problem.
quote:It's one thing to be conscious of your cultural identity, and quite another for that to define who you are totally. To believe, I have to do such or think such because it's what black, or white, or brown people are expected to do. To, as Lalo's example showed, not be able to speak in a certain way because to do so brands you as 'not black'.
don't agree, though, that being conscious of your identity as a hyphenated-American is equivalent to racism.
quote:How convenient that American culture is synonymous with white English speaking culture, then.
quote:
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I think it's easy for members of the dominant culture to come to believe that they are not conscious of race (and ethnicity), while minorities are, because ethnicity doesn't impact majority members to the same degree.
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I would say the the dominant american culture is not white. Nor is it black. This is the root of the problem. We live in the same culture, the same cities, the same states. The culture is american.
quote:That's one position. Other people feel differently. Which is why I said that it was harder to agree on.
quote:
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Institutional solutions are harder to agree on.
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There are no institutional solutions. The government cannot force people to think differently, nor should it be trying to. Any attempt at an institutional solution is going to make the problem worse for all involved.
quote:The framers did not avoid race (3/5 compromise?). The writers of the Declaration did, after attempting to address it nearly stopped the process cold. The fact that it caused such dissension that we almost did not declare our independence at all over it, and that we had to avoid the whole issue to get the resolution approved, would seem to be evidence for the original statement.
quote:
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Race has defined this country like nothing else in our history. It was the number one issue facing the framers of our Constitution,
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This is very wrong. The framers specifically avoided race so as not to upset the southern colonies. It could be debated as to what was the most important issue to the founding fathers, but it was certainly not race.
quote:Of all you say in your post, this is what I personally find most absurd. Hindu and Chinese people clearly [i]are[/u] underrepresented in our political life. You seem to be implying that because nobody comments on this, it is evidence that a lack of affirmative action programs for them has caused them to succeed where blacks have not. Let's put aside how you ignore the fact that affirmative action programs benefit these groups as well, and not just African Americans. The reason we don't hear complaints about the underrepresentation of Hindus and Chinese people in our government is that they are such a small minority in our country that it is hard to say with any statistical certainty what a realistic representation for them would be. There are only 100 Senators, so maybe the fact that we don't have half a dozen oriental ones is simply a coincidence. But the African Americans and Latinos are such large minorities in our country that their underrepresentation is glaringly obvious. Why don't we have a significant number of black and/or latino senators?
Other ethnic groups who have been looked down on just as much or more than blacks have become part of our society. Yet we do not hear about how there are not enough Hindu congressmen. We don't hear about the lack of Chinese governers. This is because no one was around to "level the playing field" for these people. They became part of our american culture.
quote:I agree that this is a bad thing. I would say it happens in white American culture just as much. How do whites respond when they hear a white person speaking in a ghetto fashion?
To, as Lalo's example showed, not be able to speak in a certain way because to do so brands you as 'not black'.
quote:I am truly sorry that you are offended by this. I hope we can be friends despite my giving you offense, though, because I stand by it. I think it is silly and cheap to believe you have any idea what pervasive prejudice against you is like because you can find some idiot saying something on some website. Doing so gives you only the smallest taste of what prejudice and discrimination are like, because you can laugh it off and return to the culture where you get preferential treatment when it comes to virtually everything.
Your assertion that I haven't exeprienced enough racism or something to, I think, see things clearly is silly and kind of cheap.
quote:I agree with you, as far as the stark extremes you painted go. My ethnicity is one of my defining traits. But it is certainly not the only one or the most important one. Is that good enough?
Racism . . . is not an excuse to let your race define you or to define other people by their race. Do you disagree with this?
quote:That's debatable. If conducted with great care, they can be very useful, as interviews with participants show. But that means that such an experience is never conducted casually, or without a thorough understanding of what potential pitfalls are and how to avoid them.
Oh, Rivka, that's "uncommon knowledge" because such experiments are highly unethical.
quote:The language of the united states is English. Should we change that to suit speakers of Tatar or of Albanian? Please define "white culture." I think you are walking on thin ice with that assumption. Since America is not all white, even if there were sucha thing as white culture, the culture of america could not possibly be all white.
How convenient that American culture is synonymous with white English speaking culture, then.
quote:No, I am saying that the lack of comment implies that it is not a national issue. I am saying that there is not a lack of representation of Hindus in congress, the very idea that one race could be over or under represented is a farce. Everyone gets a vote.
You seem to be implying that because nobody comments on this, it is evidence that a lack of affirmative action programs for them has caused them to succeed
quote:Wrong. I lay the blame at the feet of those who write laws which change standards based on race. I blame those who embrace this philosophy, and those who vote for candidates who do.
which basically say that while racism exists, it is primarily the fault of African Americans and Latinos.
quote:I won't speak for storm, but this is not how I think about the issue. The only thing I am concerned with, is how to solve the problem. How do you propose solving the problems we have, without turning the government into the thought police?
I used to think the same way about this issue as you did (that whites had as much racism towards them as other people).
quote:I am not going to question your personal situation, however, I have not seen this so-called white priviledge. There is a higher number of poor whites in this country than any other group. White priviledge implies that whites get special advantages over people who are not white. While I am sure that this does happen, it is not as all pervasive as you would have us believe. Most businesses are more concerned with making money than about someone's skin color.
I swim in a sea of white priviledge
quote:To reiterate, how would you know it's not as all pervasive? You must admit that you're claiming certainty on an issue that you must also admit you have no experience whatsoever with.
While I am sure that this does happen, it is not as all pervasive as you would have us believe. Most businesses are more concerned with making money than about someone's skin color.
quote:This is about the 10th post saying the same thing, nothing. Make a suggestion as to what an individual can do to solve the problem. Racism is not something that exists outside of individuals(unless you are speaking of the afirmative action laws). It is enough for one person to understand the problem and not act as a racist. If any one person trys to go further than that, by attemping to "level the playing field" and change their standards for people of a certain color, they then encourage the problem, not solve it.
I get why this chaps some black people's asses in a big way. Not get as in I know what it feels like (the white boy hastens to add), but I understand that from a black person's perspective, all the "ifs" and "I can't really do anything about its" are absurd.
quote:Of course!
First of all, of course there are more poor white people in the country than there are poor black people, Robespierre.
quote:no
Did you ever see the film Gentlemen's Agreement?
quote:For the umpteen-millionth time, I do not deny there is a PROBLEM. When you tell me that I don't understand what it's like to be black, you are 100% correct, i do not dispute that.
He realized that no white Christian man should have a pretense of true understanding, since they couldn't understand. You should have get rid of that same pretense, Robespierre. The pretense that things aren't radically different.
quote:Is society not a group of individuals? How ELSE would you propose changing society? There is nothing to change save for individuals.
Racism also exists in groups, in group dynamics. In the way society expects and encourages people to act-surely you must understand that. Changing society starts with changing your own individual behavior, but surely you'll agree it doesn't end there.
quote:I know you haven't made any recommendations. All you have done is told me that I don't know what's REALLY going on.
And a careful review of my statements will show you that I made no recommendations about what to do about the problem, simply spoke my opinion about some viewpoints. You reject people reading your mind, so please refrain from reading mine?
quote:I agree that there are white people who are racist. I have said this many thousands of times now. What do want from me?
I also note that you didn't say whether you agreed or disagreed with my statements, you more or less told me to shut my trap unless I had a suggestion you thought practical.
quote:I am asking without malice or sarcasm, what IS your opinion on what the law should do?
My opinion on what the law should do concerning matters of racism and bigotry hasn't changed at all
quote:This is the easiest of all the problems around this issue. A level playing field is one where the rules apply to each player in the same way. Period. No one gets any special breaks, no one gets set back because they are a certain religion. Same rules for everyone.
frankly, no one white black yellow or green knows just what a truly level playing field is,
quote:
but while it's no one person's fault, it's everyone's problem.
quote:I am in total agreement with these points.
We just have to work it out, figure out the disadvantages and work through them slowly. The individual's solution is to pay attention, don't deny the problem, and address it when it comes up in your life.
quote:But you deny that, compared to blacks, white people "swim in a sea of privilege".
For the umpteen-millionth time, I do not deny there is a PROBLEM. When you tell me that I don't understand what it's like to be black, you are 100% correct, i do not dispute that.
quote:You're really going to have to get over this insistence on not being told what you think when you keep saying that you know what it's like to be black, though you've never experienced it. And you are, with your denials that I just mentioned.
You are speaking around the point. You want to keep telling me about what my point of view is. I already know what I think, you do not. Tell me about your ideas for a solution.
quote:I did not say white people are racist. Either stop telling people to shut up and stop reading your mind, or stop doing it yourself. It's very, very annoying and I've only been reading this thread for a little while. I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion of solutions when you glory in the fact that you don't know what the problem is. The problem is not that white people are racist. Stop treating it like it's a nut to be wrenched.
The constant bombardment with the message "white people are racist, you all need to realize this" causes people to close their minds and not listen. Unless you have something to say about the nature of the problem, lay off it.
quote:Your solution-you've said this yourself-is to not be a racist in your individual life, and anything else is counter-racist. That's nonsense. I am not suggesting the problem is overt, systematic racism. I am suggesting the problem is more subtle than that, and just telling yourself over and over again, "I'm color-blind, I'm not a racist," isn't going to solve the problem.
Is society not a group of individuals? How ELSE would you propose changing society? There is nothing to change save for individuals.
quote:You don't, and you refuse to listen to anyone who says you don't. All you say is, "Shut up and offer me a solution."
All you have done is told me that I don't know what's REALLY going on.
quote:Then Rakeesh said this:
When you tell me that I don't understand what it's like to be black, you are 100% correct, i do not dispute that.
quote:What thread are you reading?
you keep saying that you know what it's like to be black, though you've never experienced it.
quote:You're right, the issue is a wrench to bash people over the head who don't agree with you.
It's very, very annoying and I've only been reading this thread for a little while. I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion of solutions when you glory in the fact that you don't know what the problem is. The problem is not that white people are racist. Stop treating it like it's a nut to be wrenched.
quote:Find where I use the phrase "color blind" to describe myself. No one in america can possibly be color blind when its made into such an enormous issue.
I am not suggesting the problem is overt, systematic racism. I am suggesting the problem is more subtle than that, and just telling yourself over and over again, "I'm color-blind, I'm not a racist," isn't going to solve the problem.
quote:What Robespierre has said about this already:
is not in fact color blind. You cannot deny this.
quote:
I agree that there are white people who are racist.
White priviledge implies that whites get special advantages over people who are not white. While I am sure that this does happen, it is not as all pervasive as you would have us believe.
For the umpteen-millionth time, I do not deny there is a PROBLEM.
There seems to be the habitual problem in these race discussions of people arguing that racism DOES exist. Of course it exists. I don't think anyone here would tell you it does not. When those who want to eliminate racism are attacked and labeled as denying the problem, the entire discussion moves backward.
quote:Well, no. Because I look pretty American, and because my English is pretty much unaccented, I can pass for a majority-American when I want to. It's only when I'm with my Spanish-speaking friends and family in a restaurant or store, or when somebody sees my name on my ID or my AAA card, or at my workplace, that I stop being treated like a white American and start being treated, sometimes, like an idiot or a thief. The rest of the time, I get to be in the elevator too full for a black person to enter, and hear somebody say, after the door closes, "No coloreds allowed!" and at least half the people on the elevator laughing. I get to be told by Americans (over and over again) that they don't envy my experience of living in South Florida, because there are way too many spics there. And I am describing actual experiences of mine.
And yet, having lived through something that you have not, I'm telling you that you are mistaken about the extent to which majority members are oppressed.
quote:I would say that such a person experiences a similar kind of minority status. It's not quite the same, because of the backdrop of majority culture that still emraces such a person, but if you're asking whether a white guy in a predoninantly hispanic or black neighborhood could possibly have an intense experience of being discriminated against, I would say sure. I'm not saying that white Americans have a monopoly on prejudice, or that minorities have a monopoly on virtue.
By the way, megachirops, what do you mean by majority and minority members? Does a white guy in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood have the same kind of minority status, or experience, as a hispanic guy in a predominantly white neighborhood?
quote:Who is Icarus?
like and agree with pretty much everything Icarus has said.
quote:I think it would go a long way if everybody would remember this one.
I'm not saying that white Americans have a monopoly on prejudice, or that minorities have a monopoly on virtue.
quote:This is 100% correct, and your summary that follows is spot on. Very well said. I guess sometimes it takes a 3rd party to calm things down a tad.
I think that Robespierre holds as a self-evident, unassailable truth that the government should not attempt to influence with what people think.
quote:Does a level playing field offer equity or equality? It's an important distinction.
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frankly, no one white black yellow or green knows just what a truly level playing field is,
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This is the easiest of all the problems around this issue. A level playing field is one where the rules apply to each player in the same way. Period. No one gets any special breaks, no one gets set back because they are a certain religion. Same rules for everyone.
quote:Er...no. I was just really tired. Still am. I don't think you're rude in making your point at all.
Again, Storm, I'm sorry that you feel I am being rude in how I make my point, and that this thread is tiring to you. I'm not sure how I could express myself on this without seeming offensive to you, because my very view of the situation seems to be offensive to you. But I am sorry that you are finding this unpleasant.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
and I feel like being an a** so I'm going to repeat myself. Take it or leave it ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
:quote:This is where we disagree, then. I don't have a problem with the government trying to influence me. My problem comes with attaching puntive damage if the people don't agree. I expect a little bit of leadership and wisdom from a public official, and to that end, I expect the politician to help me because more wise. I wasn't born wise. It's not as if my parents or friends know everything relevant there is to know.
I think that Robespierre holds as a self-evident, unassailable truth that the government should not attempt to influence what people think.[I took out a confusing word]
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
quote:Pretty much. I talk plenty bad about black people, but considering the makeup of the forum, I try to make the message relevant.
White people have it all, so it's o.k. if minorities talk crap about white people.
quote:::points::
I asked you before about whether the minority status of a white person in hispanic neighborhood was the same as that of a hispanic guy in a white neighborhood as a way of introducing the subject. You didn't respond,
quote:
quote:
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By the way, megachirops, what do you mean by majority and minority members? Does a white guy in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood have the same kind of minority status, or experience, as a hispanic guy in a predominantly white neighborhood?
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I would say that such a person experiences a similar kind of minority status. It's not quite the same, because of the backdrop of majority culture that still emraces such a person, but if you're asking whether a white guy in a predonimantly hispanic or black neighborhood could possibly have an intense experience of being discriminated against, I would say sure. I'm not saying that white Americans have a monopoly on prejudice, or that minorities have a monopoly on virtue.
quote:I believe that you can and have experienced racism, but I don't believe that it's quite the same, because you can only experience racism within a subset of American culture, but when you turn on the TV you see mostly people like you. When you read a novel, even a science fiction novel that is ostensibly set elsewhere, the characters in it usually belong to your culture. Heck, when I recently watched a hugely popular cop movie set in the town where I grew up, a town with an enormous Latino population, I find that not only are there no Latino cops, and no Latino extras, and no Latino neighbors, but the one Latino that finally does put in an appearance is, of course, a drug smuggler. And that's kind of my point. That while, yes, you can experience an incident of racism, one look at popular culture imediately tells you that you do belong, that the culture as a whole does not look down on you for only the most superficial of reasons. It's not sexist to say that I can never quite know what menstruation is like.
It's...and I'm trying to think of a word that isn't racist here...odd to me that you don't believe what I'm saying because I'm white. It seems to me a perfect example of racism. You don't believe what I'm saying strictly because of the color of my skin.
quote:This is the point I've been responding to. (I say that not for your benefit, but for people like Robespierre that wonder why those of us who propose no solutions are responding.) I certainly agree that there are prejudiced minority members. But I think that to believe that they are more so indicates a lack of perspective. You mostly know the people who are "pushing hard to see people for who they are and to support minorities to get where they want to go," no doubt because you surround yourself with what you perceive to be quality people. There are lots of people in all cultures that are not like that . . . but certainly not more of them in minority culture.
My belief that minority cultures are, in general, more racist than white culture . . .
quote:Agreed.
If racism is wrong in general, and I think it is, then minorities need to be encouraged to see white people as people as well.
quote:I think the racism of minorities toward whites stands out to you more because it affects you personally. Most of the white Americans you know are not particularly prejudiced; most of the latinos I know are not particularly prejudiced. Heck, most of the white Americans and blacks I know are not particularly prejudiced. So if we look at our friends as evidence for the openness of our own culture and we look at the people who discriminate against us as evidence of the racism of another culture, we are demonstrating a lack of perspective.
I see this happening in white culture and not much in minority culture.
quote:No, our problems came up when you guys started repeating the same one liners over and over at me. "You don't know what its like to be black" or "you deny that there is any racism." I responded as I did to try to urge you to talk about something else and stop brow beating me with these platitudes.
(I say that not for your benefit, but for people like Robespierre that wonder why those of us who propose no solutions are responding.)
quote:Afirmative action is the biggest manifestation of racism in modern society. And its not just some un-informed individual, but the government specifically changing standards for people based on the color of their skin. I think thats pretty relevant. Also, I have pointed out that I think this is the source of many of the problems. AA and the entitlement attitude are two of the things that keep race relations in the state in which they are now. I say that while the gov. tilts the laws in favor of minorities, there will be no racial harmony. Minorities will feel justified in hating whites, and whites will resent minorities for getting gov. goodies.
we are discussing the nature and manifestations of racism in modern society,
quote:What is this crap? Are you trying to make a point or are you just being a pest? Its people like Robespierre that DON'T WANT you to post here anymore, unless you can think of something to say that doesn't involve whining.
Storm Saxon is making excuses and blaming minorities for the problems caused by racism against them, but he'll gladly ignore me because "he just don't like me, mommy."
It's people like SS that make me not want to post here any more.
quote:So...the racism I experience isn't as bad as the racism you experience because I can turn on the TV and see people 'like myself' (noting of course that there are hispanics on tv, so it becomes not a question of 'when' but 'how much')? Is this what you're saying? If so, I guess I would have to disagree. To turn the tables, would racism that you experience *personally* be somehow 'made better' by being able to turn on the TV and seeing a cop show with lots of latinos? If someone called you a stupid wetback, you would feel better about it, or it would be mitigated, after a night of Univision? I don't understand how this could be as it isn't for me.
I believe that you can and have experienced racism, but I don't believe that it's quite the same, because you can only experience racism within a subset of American culture, but when you turn on the TV you see mostly people like you.
quote:Goes without saying. And vice versa.
I think the racism of minorities toward whites stands out to you more because it affects you personally.
quote:Didn't respond to this and I meant to. Just wanted to let you know that I totally agree. I'm not making the case that minorities are racist in the sense that they all hate white people. Most of the racism that I'm talking about is really more of the belittling white people or not seeing them for people kind of racism, not the burning cross on the lawn kind of racism. And, yes, I recognize that most people get along with each other and like one another. You only have to look at how rates of inter-race marriage and dating are skyrocketing to see evidence of that.
Most of the white Americans you know are not particularly prejudiced; most of the latinos I know are not particularly prejudiced. Heck, most of the white Americans and blacks I know are not particularly prejudiced. So if we look at our friends as evidence for the openness of our own culture and we look at the people who discriminate against us as evidence of the racism of another culture, we are demonstrating a lack of perspective.
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quote:I perhaps have been shifting some of my frustration with Rakeesh's constant referral to points already covered, to you.
You should have get rid of that same pretense, Robespierre. The pretense that things aren't radically different.
You're really going to have to get over this insistence on not being told what you think when you keep saying that you know what it's like to be black, though you've never experienced it.
I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion of solutions when you glory in the fact that you don't know what the problem is.
I am suggesting the problem is more subtle than that, and just telling yourself over and over again, "I'm color-blind, I'm not a racist," isn't going to solve the problem.
The problem is that our society, for all its pretense of color-blindness, is not in fact color blind. You cannot deny this.
quote:It's not a zero-sum game. I simultaneously experience the majority culture in its fullness, and I experience it as a Latino. I don't live in a barrio, my wife is not Latina, and we don't speak Spanish at home. We live like most white Americans live. And there is no seethiing resentment in me for this. Our neighbors and our friends are majority-culture Americans, and our friends do not act with bigotry. It's more like being a it schizophrenic, I guess, because I can't say that I am never not aware of being Latino, but I don't feel I'm simply moving through the culture. Actually (And I know this verges on the "most of my friends are . . ." line) I love the American culture. Finding faults is not the same as not loving it. I lived in the South (I don't count Central Florida as being in the South, hence my use of past-tense), and I love all the truly positive value of southern culture.
See, the thing is is that you *say* that you experience dominant culture, but it's clear that you don't consider yourself a *part of* dominant culture so whatever you may think, it's actually not so. Moving through so-called dominant culture isn't the same as being a part of it, no?
quote:I think that this is true because it makes people feel safe. And I think that racism, as evidenced by people in all cultures, has its roots in the same fear that leads people to prefer to see only people like themselves in their entertainment.
I actually think the problem is that people want to see other people like themselves.
quote:I can agree with this. I'm not sure what the best way to bring this about is, but I aree in principle.
The point of this thread is, perhaps, that all cultures should struggle equally in being blind to color.
quote:I agree with you that this is racism.
Most of the racism that I'm talking about is really more of the belittling white people or not seeing them for people kind of racism, not the burning cross on the lawn kind of racism.
quote:So don't talk to me about one-liners, because I specifically addressed every single part of this quote from you. The one-liner maker here is you, because you sidestep questions concerning this statement you made and tell me to clam up and offer a solution, or shriek, "I'm not saying racism doesn't exist," when in fact I never claimed you did. The closest I came to that was the "You can't deny that," which was a mistake of mine. It wasn't meant to suggest you do deny that, but merely to reiterate what is in my opinion a fact.
I am not going to question your personal situation, however, I have not seen this so-called white priviledge. There is a higher number of poor whites in this country than any other group. White priviledge implies that whites get special advantages over people who are not white. While I am sure that this does happen, it is not as all pervasive as you would have us believe. Most businesses are more concerned with making money than about someone's skin color.
quote:You are continuing with the same line of reasoning here. Does your first statement describe racism? I would say so. You are saying that whites are better off because of their skin color, that could also read: Whites are better off because of racism. And what did I say about racism? I said that of course it occurs, I acknowledge that there exists racism. So when you say, "you don't believe this" you are wrong. Where we disagree is in its scope. You seem to imply that it is omnipresent in our country. I say that it is neither as widespread nor as severe as you say.
whites have it better than minorities in America simply by virtue of their skin-color.You have said you don't believe this.
quote:This is the part where you say that i don't understand the situation, and that its beyond me and I have no hope of understading, because I am white.
Therefore not only are you asserting an understanding far beyond your own personal experience, but you're also suggesting that everyone who believes otherwise has a hidden agenda for thinking the way they do.
quote:
Your denial that white people "swim in a sea of prejudice" is a suggestion that you know what it's like to be black.
quote:Neither of these claims follow, Rakeesh.
By denying that whites in America get an automatic bonus-often subtle and unmentioned-whereas minorities don't, you are insisting that you also have a deep and profound understanding of what it is to be a minority in America.
quote:I think Robespierre was under the impression that you thought this sea of privilege was racism, though - not merely a product of demographics and history.
The "sea of privilege" you deny exists is a product of demographics and history.
quote:First and foremost, buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about here, because you're trying to address a situation you have no knowledge about, and are not a part of. Don't start a flame war with me. I don't feel like having the moderators attacking me and censoring every goddamn thing I say again just because I'm being attacked and not standing for it. You don't like what I have to say—that's fine. Stay out of the rest.
What is this crap? Are you trying to make a point or are you just being a pest? Its people like Robespierre that DON'T WANT you to post here anymore, unless you can think of something to say that doesn't involve whining.
quote:Taking advantage of blatant inequality is endorsing the products of racism, even if not endorsing racism itself.
Demographics and history don't really matter, at least not in the way racism matters.
quote:Who said we had to swing the pendulum in the opposite extreme? I certainly did not. However, I did say that we need to either learn to honestly play fair, or stop assuming that just because we're happy and we're not legally segregating people any more, that it is indicative that the playing field is "fair" by any means. It is not. "Enjoying the benefits" is basically endorsing the inequality that is the product of years of repression and hate. By your justification, we should be allowing any tyrant who brutalizes people in other nations to do so, because he is simply reaping the benefits of an unequal situation. That's basically saying that ethnic cleansing that happens this very day in other nations is justified because the ones doing the "cleansing" are just reaping the benefits of being in a better position. You see, that philosophy is easy when you're sitting in your living room watching the rest of the world from a comfortable couch in the 'burbs, but when applied literally, it's quite brutal.
And is future generations taking advantage of the products of past injustices wrong? Don't answer that too quick because if it is, we probably should be giving America back to the Native Americans. (Not to mention the fact that my great grandparents were discriminated against when they immigrated here a hundred years ago. Where's my compensation?)
quote:Having more money may be reaping the benefit of being born into a better position. But ethnic cleansing is not - it is continuing an injustice.
By your justification, we should be allowing any tyrant who brutalizes people in other nations to do so, because he is simply reaping the benefits of an unequal situation. That's basically saying that ethnic cleansing that happens this very day in other nations is justified because the ones doing the "cleansing" are just reaping the benefits of being in a better position.
quote:Flying Cow,
Black parents, on the other hand, are more likely to view the "stigma" of special education. They ask if their child will be excluded, or treated differently, or made fun of by other students. They make comments to the effect of the administration telling them there's something "wrong" with their child, or that the school is trying to make money of their child's enrollment in special ed. In short, there's far more resistence to these types of programs.
quote:I wouldn't say "the entire world" myself, I would say the entire US education system. Lower expectations, lower standards—including lower standards for teachers in non-WASP-suburbanite communities. The amazing thing is that, often enough, such smart kids can still come out of those low-expectation programs, regardless of the low-com-denom systems. Of course, why should the government—mostly run by white males—give a crap about minority populations, when they barely make up 9% of the voting stock (15% if all blacks of age voted, about 25-30% if all minorities voted)? After all, it's just a matter of us whites taking advantage of our dominant situation, right? What's wrong with that? Who cares if people—human beings—are getting shafted during the course of it? It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and someone's got to come out on top, right?
I can understand it. When the entire world thinks you are stupid, you don't need confirmation from the school system.
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quote:So should we be giving the country back, Leto? Where exactly are the rest of us going to go, into exile on the high seas? And what have we personally done to deserve this?
Who said we had to swing the pendulum in the opposite extreme? I certainly did not. However, I did say that we need to either learn to honestly play fair, or stop assuming that just because we're happy and we're not legally segregating people any more, that it is indicative that the playing field is "fair" by any means. It is not. "Enjoying the benefits" is basically endorsing the inequality that is the product of years of repression and hate. By your justification, we should be allowing any tyrant who brutalizes people in other nations to do so, because he is simply reaping the benefits of an unequal situation. That's basically saying that ethnic cleansing that happens this very day in other nations is justified because the ones doing the "cleansing" are just reaping the benefits of being in a better position. You see, that philosophy is easy when you're sitting in your living room watching the rest of the world from a comfortable couch in the 'burbs, but when applied literally, it's quite brutal.
quote:Your arrogance is boundless. I have no knowledge of what? Tell me what it is that I don't know. Or is it the same tired old "you're not a minority so you don't know what it's like" mantra? Your tactic is to discredit me, rather than take on any specific point.
buddy, you have no idea what you're talking about here, because you're trying to address a situation you have no knowledge about, and are not a part of
quote:Look out! someone might force you to do something you don't want to do! Here we see a good example of excuse making. "I'm not to blame, someone else was being mean to me, I'm not at fault, white people stole my money, It's not my fault, those companies won't hire me because I am a minority"
Don't start a flame war with me. I don't feel like having the moderators attacking me and censoring every goddamn thing I say again just because I'm being attacked and not standing for it.
quote:I am almost certain that you are the first to use the phrase "moral superiority."
Storm Saxon can sit here and claim moral superiority
quote:Now switch every instance of "white" with "black" and see how you are the problem. You are the racist here. No one here is labeling a specific race like you, no one here is making assumptions based on race like you.
Sorry to break it to all the American white kids out there...
...everyone who has posted that stance here is white as the driven snow...
...you white kids would probably not have had such an easy life growing up.
...In case American whites didn't realize it,
quote:White people are the only faces among the world's richest? Alsaud, Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal is #6. And there are plenty of other non-white rich people in the world.
Quite simply, were the world playing by the "colorblind" rules, white people wouldn't be making upwards of 10% more in the workplace as blacks and other minorities, white people wouldn't be the only faces to grace the world's richest individuals, and while the world will not be a tougher place to live in, white people wouldn't even have it as good as they do currently the world over.
quote:The only way for everyone to be on the same level would be for all of civilization to be destroyed and go back to hunting and gathering. And then there would be some other imagined inequality. Your fundamental problem is the idea that everyone should be at the same "level." The best that we can hope for is for legal equality, which we are far from. When everyone has the same rules applied, there can be no excuses. No one group's past makes them a bigger victim than any other group.
Were everyone on the same level, then it wouldn't sound like such a fun thing to say.
quote:This statement could not be more wrong. For it to be true, it must also be true that white people be the only race to have committed the crimes you mention. I would argue that the slavery perpetrated by whites is a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall amount of people in the entire world that have been slaves. Wars have been fought by people of all races against people of all races. People of all races have committed genocide. The only rational way to structure a society is to have the rules and consequences apply to everyone in the same way. To say that group A has suffered more than group B and therefore should be given special advantages can only re-inforce the problem.
then you are basically justifying hundreds of years of slavery, oppression, genocide, and warfare, whether or not you mean to by saying it
quote:As it SHOULD be. Those who are more productive, get more compensation. Someone who can play the piano with masterful skill, will be allowed to play at a concert. This is the fundamental in-equality which you want to eliminate.
a world where inequality is rewarded.
quote:What is your concept of fair? And we are legally segregating people right now, whites have to fight extra hard to get into schools and other institutions in order to "level the playing field". The rules are NOT applied the same way for all races.
I did say that we need to either learn to honestly play fair, or stop assuming that just because we're happy and we're not legally segregating people any more
quote:Would you care to propose an alternate system? Perhaps we can devise a system where everyone gets the same reward no matter what they contribute.
Who cares if people—human beings—are getting shafted during the course of it? It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and someone's got to come out on top, right?
quote:It is destructive to apply such a system. Those who are best qualified should be hired, ignoring race etc. This is how most businesses actually operate. Businesses don't pass by minorities who are more qualified and are likely to make them more money just because they are minorities. I am aware that there exist people who will do this, but it is the exception. Businesses are most concerned with making money, not finding jobs for their white friends.
what system would encourage businesses to hire non-whites that would not result in a fewer number of whites being hired?
quote:None could, but there is such a system that would both encourage businesses to hire qualified non-blacks over less-qualified whites AND not punish whites. In this system, the job would go to the MOST DESERVING candidate. (Novel idea, no?) Not only can it do all this, but it is simple to implement too - all you need to do is not include skin color as a factor in employment.
Assuming there are a finite number of available jobs, what system would encourage businesses to hire non-whites that would not result in a fewer number of whites being hired?
quote:Of course this is not easy. But success is determined in the market-place. Those who hire incompetant labor will have less productivity, more accidents in the workplace, and higher prices as a result. The system of capitalism sorts out who is best qualified. As for those who do the hiring, those that are best qualified to hire will hire those that are the best qualified for their positions. It is a dynamic system.
I'm still wondering how it magically became easy to determine who is best qualified. I regularly find incompetent employed people and competent unemployed people
quote:You don't have to take all knowledge of skin color out of the equation. Just don't base your decisions on it.
In all seriousness, what system can YOU envision that effectively removes skin color from the equation?
quote:Well, I've already pointed out that this so-called sea of prejudice is merely a result of statistics and history - not a real example of racism. We could try to arrange things so the rich and poor have equal opportunities, and perhaps should, but that's a matter completely irrelevant to race and affirmative action (as it's about class, not race.)
And, of course, you aren't exactly eliminating the "sea of prejudice" by only concentrating on "color-blindness," as it doesn't do a thing to address the web of entitlements and casual nepotisms that result in most hirings, anyway.
quote:You have taken the point to its logical extreme and demonstrated why AA will never work. The government cannot force people to think one way or another. The only option is to have the law applied in the same way to everyone.
But how, exactly, do you expect people to stop basing their decisions on it? Or is it your contention that racism doesn't exist anymore, in any way that really matters, and we can safely expect hiring managers to never take skin color into account if left to their own devices?
quote:You and Tres have been talking about hiring in a very abstract, idealized sort of way, or at least it seems that way to me. Do you think that the real world actually works this way? How much experience do you have with corporate hiring practices? Go to any company, successful or not, and you will unquestionably, absolutely find people working there who were not and are not the best qualified for their positions. My company is one of the most successful in its industry and I am constantly astounded at the apparent total mental retardation of so many of the employees.
Of course this is not easy. But success is determined in the market-place. Those who hire incompetant labor will have less productivity, more accidents in the workplace, and higher prices as a result. The system of capitalism sorts out who is best qualified. As for those who do the hiring, those that are best qualified to hire will hire those that are the best qualified for their positions. It is a dynamic system.
quote:I'm guessing you're not using Japanese-Americans as a model of how the status quo can help minorities integrate into America, are you? Because that would be really ironic. You're acknowledging some iniquities here, but your solution seems a bit strange. You're saying that because someone can persevere and overcome adversity, they should just be left to their own devices. That's akin, although much less drastic, to not throwing a man overboard a life preserver because you figure he can swim anyway.
Minority groups have been able to assimilate into our society in the past without government help. There are many ethnic Japanese in the US. They have not been given a "level playing field" in the form of changing standards. Yet they retain their cultural identity and manage to integrate into American Society.
quote:Of course, if I were arguing about how an ideal world worked, what would be accomplished?
Do you think that the real world actually works this way?
quote:Plenty, I have been hired and fired by corporations.
How much experience do you have with corporate hiring practices?
quote:Companies strive to be the best, and to be the most productive, but rarely achieve perfection.
Go to any company, successful or not, and you will unquestionably, absolutely find people working there who were not and are not the best qualified for their positions.
quote:Since I am not familiar with your company, I cannot refute this point. Even if I take your assesment of the qualifications of your company's employees at face value, there are numerous other facts about the situation that remain unknown to me. When people criticize capitalism and cite examples in the US economy of why it doesn't work, they must be reminded that the US economy isn't a perfect example of capitalism. There are plenty of laws which run counter to all that capitalism is, there are regulations that limit the personal freedom of the many, to satisfy the morals of a few. It is incomplete evidence to point to the US economy and claim that capitalism doesn't work well enough when the US restricts capitalism so much. To be sure, I believe that there needs to be some regulation, but currently the government climate of regulation is too restrictive.
My company is one of the most successful in its industry and I am constantly astounded at the apparent total mental retardation of so many of the employees.
quote:Not only should all minorities be left to the own devices, but that it is infact illegal to act otherwise. To give special benefits to a group because their ancestors have had to put up with past adversity is a mistake.
You're saying that because someone can persevere and overcome adversity, they should just be left to their own devices.
quote:If I had to take that life-preserver from another man in the water in order to give it to the first, I would not. This is what is being asked of the government. To save a few, at the expense of many. But that point of view forgets that there is no rational way the government can throw the man a life-preserver. The only one I know of is Afirm. Act. which you don't want to talk about.
That's akin, although much less drastic, to not throwing a man overboard a life preserver because you figure he can swim anyway.
quote:I know you don't want to hear it, but what is the option to letting people fend for themselves? That is what our society is based on. Those who are part of our society must operate within its guide lines. To place a certain group outside of our society is wrong for many reasons. It is unfair to all others, and it unfairly stigmatizes the group.
that other minority should be left to fend for itself.
quote:Over time, capitalism directly benefits everyone. Those who work hard receive the most benefit. While even those who work none at all receive the benefits of living in a technologically advanced society. Perhaps capitalism won't fix everyone's problems in a week, but over the years, most problems can be fixed by people living and prospering together. Before someone asks why our problems exist today, I would point them to my previous comments about the watered-down nature of our current capitalist society.
Capitalism doesn't effectively weed out antisocial practices in an employers' market, as ours is.
quote:Why do employers spend a lot of time and money setting up interviews then, if they have such a large number of candidates that are similar enough that hiring one over any other would not increase efficiency noticeably? If this were truly the case, employers wouldn't bother with that expense and just hire any of the top candidates, sight unseen. The conclusion we should draw from this is that, yes, there IS a noticeable loss of efficiency when hiring a suboptimal employee.
Tres -- that doesn't work. There are a large number of qualified white candidates, so a corporation that is not hiring on the edge of competency will have no particular difficulty hiring large numbers of white employees and no minority employees with no noticeable loss of efficiency.
quote:Firstly, I did not claim that capitalism is a panacea. I do not think that capitalism is the solution to all problems. However, you said that you agree that a primarily capitalistic system is the best. Do you disagree that over-time, all people who live within the capitalist system are benefitted? If you disagree, what makes you believe this? Give me a reasonable example of a group who was not helped by a well functioning capitalistic economy.
I even agree on the general principle that a primarily capitalistic system is the best economic system, but capitalism as a panacea is such utter bs.
quote:Cow,
While the day to day racism may be equal in both situations, based on comments made and attitudes assumed, the fact remains that the lone white guy in the barrio still lives in a popular culture dominated by white people.
quote:Kudos to you, Saxon---this is very true and I have seen it live.
The assumption here is that the white guy in the barrio identifies with the white president, or actor, or whatever, when in my experience that is not the case. They will do everything in their power to makes themselves black or hispanic or whatever to fit in. People identify with the culture and the group that they know. Skin is not equal to culture.
quote:This is also true, but, unfortunately, I have seen that many who benefit from affirmative action believe it to be not only benefits because of present inequalities, they also see it as payback for their ancestors.
you've continuously referred to affirmative action as a system that benefits certain groups because of injustices done to their ancestors. What you need to realize is that the proponents of affirmative action do not characterize it as such. Rather, they see it as a system that benefits certain groups because of present inequalities.
quote:I am in total agreement with this analysis. Perhaps you mistook my belief that business should not be FORCED to hire diversely as a belief that business shouldn't hire in a diverse manner. I clearly see the benefits of having people from many different backgrounds in a business setting. However, to use the figurative "gun" of the government to coerce business to hire a certain percentage of a certain type of people flies in the face of freedom. If people choose to isolate themselves by deliberatly not hiring minorities, their reward is failure.
There is plenty of reason to assume that a hiring policy that supports diversity will enhance business. Much of our economy these days relies on innovation, often technical innovation, but innovative thinking is likely to be desired in any type of business. Diverse hiring practices are more likely to bring in people with differing backgrounds, which in turn means that it is more likely to hire people with different viewpoints and modes of thought.
quote:When you remove the "past injustices" you remove the reason for basing the benefits on race. Why not then help anyone who needs a job, why not help any student applying to college? The argument seems to evaporate into pure racism.
a system that benefits certain groups because of present inequalities. I think that most people in the discussion would say that if a group were currently doing fine, then compensating them for past injustices would at least be nonsensical,
quote:No there is a correlation to some degree, but there's also a correlation between education and skin color. Should we reject black candidates because we assume they are less educated? No. Similarly, it would be rather racist of the hiring official to assume a person has a certain cultural heritage just because of their skin color - and then hire on those grounds. "Oh, you've got black skin. You'll bring some ghetto experiences to the company!"
If you're trying to say that there is no correlation between race and culture, I will respectfully have to disagree.
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quote:I would point out that there has been more than just this one thread come up in the forum, like 4 or 5 in the last week. There seems to be a decent amount of interest in the subject.
Sorry everyone but this thread is going in circles and needs to die....
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quote:Apparently, yours is the arrogance that is without limit. Like I said, there was an issue that is personal, meaning it's none of your damn business, and you would be wise to stop trying to pursue it. Either keep it out of discussion—and out of your trolling tactics—or soon find yourself reported for misbehavior. Like I said, I'm not going to get into a flame war with you. Either you stay on topic, or I have nothing to discuss with you. I told you that you are uninformed about what you were talking about, and told you why (because it's personal and not concerning you), yet you persist. You can jump up and down in anger about it if you wish, but it's none of your business.
Your arrogance is boundless. I have no knowledge of what? Tell me what it is that I don't know. Or is it the same tired old "you're not a minority so you don't know what it's like" mantra?
quote:Example number two of you having no clue what you're talking about. Had you a clue, you would have known it's not about minorities that I made that statement. I've been bullied by certain people here, and I am not going to get into a flame war again and get bullied a second time. It's why I disappeared for so long before (apparently, before you decided to make your rhetorical debut).
Look out! someone might force you to do something you don't want to do! Here we see a good example of excuse making.
quote:Ha! Because that exact phrase was not uttered, someone else wasn't attempting to do the action? I can see why you find it so easy to make excuses for racism, since as long as a racist isn't actually calling themselves a racist, then they must not be. Mighty fine logic you have there.
I am almost certain that you are the first to use the phrase "moral superiority."
quote:I guess you can't be bothered to read not only the main title of this thread, but the links and statements of the very first post. No, sirra, I was nowhere near the first one to be specific about ethnicity. Additionally, switching the word "white" with "black wouldn't work, becuase it would instantly not be true—every one who has posted here but for three people (four at the most)—are caucasian. If you don't think that influences their view, then you are quite delusional.
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Sorry to break it to all the American white kids out there...
...everyone who has posted that stance here is white as the driven snow...
...you white kids would probably not have had such an easy life growing up.
...In case American whites didn't realize it,
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Now switch every instance of "white" with "black" and see how you are the problem. You are the racist here. No one here is labeling a specific race like you, no one here is making assumptions based on race like you.
quote:Considering that was not the point I was pressing here, your complete lack of comprehension is rather disgusting. I was saying that the excuse being made that whites are "simply taking advantages of the situation" was supporting a recidivist racism at the worst, and justifying a racist system at the least. Of course, since you're pulling your own meanings out of misquotes and knee-jerk replies, you probably couldn't comprehend that, even though I said it quite plainly more than once.
Your idea that white people cannot see racism is disgusting.
quote:The problem, genius, is that racism is still alive and well, and that "taking advantage of the situation" promotes it. If anyone is making excuses, it's you. You're continually trying to justify and rejustify yourself by trying to lay blame. I have no need to lay blame, mostly because the people who created the system are long dead. However, what I will do that you seem incapable of is promote a change of situation to more accurately represent a society of personal liberty and freedom that is not based on racist systems. You seem perfectly happy in the present racist-based system. That doesn't surprise me, as you're probably white.
"You don't know what its like to be black!" Exactly right! But totally meaningless! I don't need to be black to know what its like to be hassled by the police for not looking like the right kind of person. I don't need to be black to see that only societies with some freedom can survive. I don't need to be black to know that making excuses for problems will cause them to never be solved.
quote:Of the world's top fifty, name all the non-whites. Don't forget to mention that numbers 1 through 5 are not only white, but male. Please, elaborate on these "plenty of other non-white rich people" you so self-righteously claim as justification for your attitude. What percentage of non-whites would it take to satisfy your rage about my comments? Less than 20%? 10%?
White people are the only faces among the world's richest? Alsaud, Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal is #6. And there are plenty of other non-white rich people in the world.
quote:Why should the world be unfair to them? The whole point is that no ethnic group should be tolerated holding superiority over another. The proverbial playing field should be level. Currently, the playing field is not. You seem perfectly happy with it, I do not.
According to your logic, white people are really the minority, and the world should be unfair to them.
quote:Or civilization would have to be required to think before acting. How terrible—everyone would have to not only be educated, but they would have to be sure to hold themselves personally responsible for their own decisions. What's worse is that they would have to be honest about it. The horror! I can see why that scenario frightens you.
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Were everyone on the same level, then it wouldn't sound like such a fun thing to say.
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The only way for everyone to be on the same level would be for all of civilization to be destroyed and go back to hunting and gathering.
quote:That we are "far from" legal equality supports my statements. Thank you.
Your fundamental problem is the idea that everyone should be at the same "level." The best that we can hope for is for legal equality, which we are far from.
quote:Too bad the world doesn't work like this. Too bad the United States doesn't work like this. I don't know what fairy-tale land you live in, but a land where the same rules were applied to every individual in the same manner is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. Since even you admitted that we are "far from" it, it would seem you are contradicting yourself, or talking yourself into knots.
When everyone has the same rules applied, there can be no excuses. No one group's past makes them a bigger victim than any other group.
quote:What a line of utter baloney. The current situation in the United States is not the result of all slavery that has ever taken place throughout the world. It is the result of slavery that was perpetuated and maintained by European whites colonizing the Americas. What was borne from this already racist action was a hatred that has lasted and still affects the nation today. Nice try to make "the big picture" somehow negate the subject, but your misapplication of it belies your ignorance. For example:
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then you are basically justifying hundreds of years of slavery, oppression, genocide, and warfare, whether or not you mean to by saying it
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This statement could not be more wrong. For it to be true, it must also be true that white people be the only race to have committed the crimes you mention.
quote:(emphasis mine)
I would argue that the slavery perpetrated by whites is a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall amount of people in the entire world that have been slaves.
quote:And how does this make any difference to my point that promoting more of the same is wrong? You're basically trying the "two wrongs make a right" argument, trying to say that because wrongs have been committed elsewhere in the world throughout history, that it gives us some sort of precedent to behave like racist pricks by taking advantage that a few hundred years of wanton slavery has allowed. Your justifications are getting weaker and weaker.
Wars have been fought by people of all races against people of all races. People of all races have committed genocide. The only rational way to structure a society is to have the rules and consequences apply to everyone in the same way.
quote:And to say that group C suffered as well doesn't make the suffering of A or B any less, nor does it give B the right to trample the liberties of A. You are trying to make the case that since C suffered, that B has every right to trample A.
To say that group A has suffered more than group B and therefore should be given special advantages can only re-inforce the problem.
quote:Now you're just making things up. I was quite clear what I want to eliminate—a world where racism promotes inequality of opportunity. Just because you intentionally misquote me in order to create a straw man does not make you any less incorrect. I make a point, then you claim I am making a point other than the one I truly made, and attack your made-up point. I'm sure you're quite angry by now, but you would do well to take a break from your horrible logical fallacies before continuing to debate here.
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a world where inequality is rewarded.
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As it SHOULD be. Those who are more productive, get more compensation. Someone who can play the piano with masterful skill, will be allowed to play at a concert. This is the fundamental in-equality which you want to eliminate.
quote:I never said the rules are being applied the same way for all races. I'm saying that is a problem. You seem to be creating yet another straw man here, trying to make it seem as if I'm supporting Affirmative Action. I do not, yet you immediately try to argue against that, totally missing my point yet again. Good job. And if you believe that whites have to work harder to get admitted into schools or get jobs than non-whites, then I would seriously love for you to prove that with empirical evidence. In fact, before I toss in my own empirical evidence showing what a farce that statement is, I'll let you go first to try and justify yourself. Good luck, and you had better come up with some reputable sources.
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I did say that we need to either learn to honestly play fair, or stop assuming that just because we're happy and we're not legally segregating people any more
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What is your concept of fair? And we are legally segregating people right now, whites have to fight extra hard to get into schools and other institutions in order to "level the playing field". The rules are NOT applied the same way for all races.
quote:HA! I love it. Because you can come up with nothing but straw men and attempts to start a flame war, you demand a solution inside of a single post sufficient to cover all bases of the problems. You are either seriously insane, or just have no clue what an illogical request that was. Reams could only begin to cover the issues, but they would mostly start out with education and integration—something that states to this day have been known to argue against—followed up with legislation more adequately punishing hate crimes and known cases of unacceptable treatment of any minority (in any environment, meaning blacks, hispanics, women, or even whites, if ever applicable). In a nation as complex and large as the US, it would take years to accomplish. The only down side is that the majority of people are quite comfortable with their ethnic advantages, and want nothing to do with actual liberty and freedom.
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Who cares if people—human beings—are getting shafted during the course of it? It's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and someone's got to come out on top, right?
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Would you care to propose an alternate system? Perhaps we can devise a system where everyone gets the same reward no matter what they contribute.
quote:I agree.
Next thing I know, I'll be agreeing with Tres and Kayla.
quote:The discussion, is about racism. If you have some personal expirience with racism either share it, or move on. Just because you have some personal problem doesn't mean I don't get to discuss my point of view. When you come into the discussion and start throwing stones with no sort of point, you are going to get some negative responses.
Like I said, there was an issue that is personal, meaning it's none of your damn business, and you would be wise to stop trying to pursue it.
quote:If you cannot see the racist nature of your remarks, you have no right what-so-ever to be calling anyone racist. You seem to be justifying your inflamatory remarks by claiming its not racism if its true.
How convenient coming from a white guy.
quote:Your past problems are of NO concern to me. If you don't want to see what I have to say about this topic, stay away from this thread. As for the secret hidden meaning in your statements: fine, let them mean whatever you want them to. At face value they are racist and more than a little inflammatory.
Had you a clue, you would have known it's not about minorities that I made that statement. I've been bullied by certain people here, and I am not going to get into a flame war again and get bullied a second time. It's why I disappeared for so long before (apparently, before you decided to make your rhetorical debut).
quote:No, I think the argument is that just because C has suffered, it doesn't give C the right to trample A or B - who suffered just as greatly in different ways.
And to say that group C suffered as well doesn't make the suffering of A or B any less, nor does it give B the right to trample the liberties of A. You are trying to make the case that since C suffered, that B has every right to trample A.
quote:Doctor, heal thyself.
Like I've already said, don't attempt to insult me or start a flame war or get personal with me.
quote:Incorrect, and that is (again) not what I'm advocating anyway. Besides, the points of programs such as Affirmative Action-which I don't support-are not only to redress past oppression and racism, but to give minorities a fair shake in a world shaped by the history of such things. I realize in your world, civil rights should've ended with the Amendment (or do you think that way?), but the problem still exists. Burying your head in the sand and repeating your mantra of, "I'm not a racist personally, so I'm doing all I can," doesn't help the problem. Your belief that apathy is the best treatment is the only thing that sustains your idealogy on this issue.
Not only should all minorities be left to the own devices, but that it is infact illegal to act otherwise. To give special benefits to a group because their ancestors have had to put up with past adversity is a mistake.
quote:I don't. It's not that I don't want to talk about Affirmative Action, it's that you constantly are suggesting (without using AA specifically) that that's what I'm advocating. No. I make no claim to be a perfect arbiter, as I've also said numerous times. What I do claim is that just because there's a law on the books that outlaws discrimination by no means means our job is done. God, look at American history to see how many times government has had to step in to enforce the law which is simply not obeyed, and you'll see what I mean. Integration. Jim Crow laws. Lynch mobs. White juries in black neighborhoods. Obvious racism in hiring policies which Affirmative Action was designed to redress.
As I stated before, it is not the government's place(nor yours) to judge which group has had a rougher background and then award that group with legal goodies. Who is the government(or you) to judge that Blacks or any other minority deserve more or less legal protection than any other group? Who is the ultimate arbiter of historical strife, and by what standard is this arbiter to measure?
quote:Incorrect. "Fend for yourselves" is the law of the jungle, not the law of civilization.
I know you don't want to hear it, but what is the option to letting people fend for themselves? That is what our society is based on. Those who are part of our society must operate within its guide lines. To place a certain group outside of our society is wrong for many reasons. It is unfair to all others, and it unfairly stigmatizes the group.
quote:Nonsense. Over a long, long, long time, maybe. By this curious logic, African-Americans should be at the top of the heap. What of Mexican-Americans in the American Southwest? Or Asian-Americans who labored throughout the ninteenth century? What you're talking about is fairness not how civilization views it (we get what we deserve), but what the state of Nature says fairness is (you deserve what you get).
Over time, capitalism directly benefits everyone. Those who work hard receive the most benefit.
quote:Laissez faire has been tried before, and it ultimately led to what would constantly happen in nature if you gave animals the ability to think and ambition. Few on the top, lots on the bottom, and every so often, one among the teeming masses will break into the top.
Before someone asks why our problems exist today, I would point them to my previous comments about the watered-down nature of our current capitalist society.
quote:While not exactly contradictory, the themes of these excerpts are curiously incongruous. And one of the problems we're discussing is that people aren't living and prospering together. They're living and prospering seperately, largely.
I do not think that capitalism is the solution to all problems.
Over time, capitalism directly benefits everyone. Those who work hard receive the most benefit.
Perhaps capitalism won't fix everyone's problems in a week, but over the years, most problems can be fixed by people living and prospering together.
quote:Immoral? So your morality is you deserve what you get, then. Is it "moral" for white Americans to have uncounted advantages in society, while minorities do not? Certainly not. What you're saying is that, if this exists, it's necessary, but don't make a pretense to morality.
Others may have advantages from their social status. However, when you get down to it, to operate in any other way is immoral and offensive to reason.
quote:Why don't you support Afirmative Action?
Affirmative Action-which I don't support
quote:Yeah, it sounds a little different within the actual context of my post.
Quote:
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Others may have advantages from their social status. However, when you get down to it, to operate in any other way is immoral and offensive to reason.
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Immoral? So your morality is you deserve what you get, then. Is it "moral" for white Americans to have uncounted advantages in society, while minorities do not? Certainly not. What you're saying is that, if this exists, it's necessary, but don't make a pretense to morality.
quote:
While I say that all are helped by capitalism, I do not say that there will never be adversity, or that the road will be equal for all involved. Some have backgrounds which hold them back. Others may have advantages from their social status. However, when you get down to it, to operate in any other way is immoral and offensive to reason.
quote:You ignorant, ignorant person. The personal issue you are trying to jump in on has to do with Storm Saxon's claiming to cry out against prejudice, yet having no problem displaying and marching around his own prejudice. You decided to jump in on a remark I made at him, and it's neither your business, nor are you privy enough to have anything worthwhile to say on the subject. Each time you run your mouth considering it, you use more and more trolling tactics, up to and including trying to start a flame war. Good for you for sticking to your typical troll baiting tactics.
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Like I said, there was an issue that is personal, meaning it's none of your damn business, and you would be wise to stop trying to pursue it.
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The discussion, is about racism. If you have some personal expirience with racism either share it, or move on. Just because you have some personal problem doesn't mean I don't get to discuss my point of view. When you come into the discussion and start throwing stones with no sort of point, you are going to get some negative responses.
quote:No, I'm saying that your statements regarding the imabalancing bias of the United States social structure are typical of a group of people who have had absolutely no problem in the arena of racism, prejudice, unfair treatment. You are demanding that all other ethnic groups look at the world from the point of view you have, while simultaneously being ignorant and unaware of the points of view of other ethnicities (and their experiences). You want everyone to play by the same rules, but only if they play by yours. That is not equality.
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How convenient coming from a white guy.
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If you cannot see the racist nature of your remarks, you have no right what-so-ever to be calling anyone racist. You seem to be justifying your inflamatory remarks by claiming its not racism if its true.
quote:Actually, I took apart everything you said fairly well, and made it a point to show you where you were not on topic. Instead, I demanded that you stay on topic, instead of trying to incite a flame war.
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Had you a clue, you would have known it's not about minorities that I made that statement. I've been bullied by certain people here, and I am not going to get into a flame war again and get bullied a second time. It's why I disappeared for so long before (apparently, before you decided to make your rhetorical debut).
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Your past problems are of NO concern to me. If you don't want to see what I have to say about this topic, stay away from this thread.
quote:Uh huh. You're trying so hard to find "secret hidden meaning" in what I say, you are incapable of taking them at face value. The problem therein is yours, not mine.
As for the secret hidden meaning in your statements: fine, let them mean whatever you want them to.
quote:At face value they point out your ignorance and lack of perspective, and that makes you angry because it insults your self-assumed intelligence.
At face value they are racist and more than a little inflammatory.
quote:And yet you're the one posting more and more angrily, making up numbers and trying to rewrite history to support an incongruent ideology.
It is clear that your thoughts on this subject are tainted by your uncontrolled rage.
quote:In other words, you can't prove the things you said that I asked you to prove. Nice cop-out.
Since you seem to want to discount everything I say because I am white and I just cannot possibly understand the issue, I am not going to address your individual points.
quote:You may discuss the topic all you like. What you have no right discussing the personal problems Storm Saxon has with me, and no right to try to start a flame war over it. Discuss racism all you like—don't try to goad me into a flame war over it.
I will merely ask you to explain your first 2 paragraphs on why I should not be allowed to discuss this topic.
quote:Rakeesh's reply still stands. Capitalism is not what has created the stratification between opportunity between ethnic groups. Capitalism does not promote racism. That you are trying to say that capitalism makes the situation where blacks get 10% (or more) less than whites for the same jobs is ridiculous and an attempt at creating a flase pretense. Rakeesh wasn't debating against capitalism, Rakeesh was debating against the racist idea that blacks are afforded less opportunity than whites is "acceptable losses" or a product of capitalism. Your logical fallacy is still present.
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Immoral? So your morality is you deserve what you get, then. Is it "moral" for white Americans to have uncounted advantages in society, while minorities do not? Certainly not. What you're saying is that, if this exists, it's necessary, but don't make a pretense to morality.
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Yeah, it sounds a little different within the actual context of my post.
quote:
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While I say that all are helped by capitalism, I do not say that there will never be adversity, or that the road will be equal for all involved. Some have backgrounds which hold them back. Others may have advantages from their social status. However, when you get down to it, to operate in any other way is immoral and offensive to reason.
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quote:Nice way to miss the point. Let me break it down for you by assigning a more real value to the letters you misrepresented.
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And to say that group C suffered as well doesn't make the suffering of A or B any less, nor does it give B the right to trample the liberties of A. You are trying to make the case that since C suffered, that B has every right to trample A.
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No, I think the argument is that just because C has suffered, it doesn't give C the right to trample A or B - who suffered just as greatly in different ways.
Well, that's not exactly accurate. It's more like, just because C has suffered, it doesn't give C's grandchildren the right to trample the grandchildren of A or B, when A or B suffered just as greatly in different ways.
quote:That's not funny, Tres, because while Robespierre is trying to bait a flame war, I have not dropped to that level. You may not like how I debate, but I have stayed on topic and denied any jumps into flaming.
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Like I've already said, don't attempt to insult me or start a flame war or get personal with me.
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Doctor, heal thyself.
quote:I am not saying that blacks deserve some sort of reparations. You are creating an argument that I have not made. I'm saying that the field of opportunity is, at this point and time, not level for non-whites. I'm saying that the field of opportunity should be level, and I've repeatedly pointed out how those who are quite comfortable with the current ideal are judging the opportunities from their easy perspective without taking into account those of other groups. It's very easy to say the game is fair when you are in the winning group that, while not cheating at the moment, is "winning" (yes, I know the rhetorical connotation is allegorical, not direct) because of past cheating done by former members while continuing game play under uneven circumstance. I'm saying that the circumstances can be made equal, and that anyone who does not want that does not really want equality. Heck, that's also one of my main arguments against AA, which should jibe nicely to those against Affirmative Action. However, I'm applying it to more than just AA, and it seems that the ethnic majority in America doesn't quite like that.
I think that in this argument Tresopax has the right of it.
There were horrible injustices perpetrated on many different groups of people in the past. The descendants of these people often suffered (and may yet suffer) due to these injustices.
Yet there is no logical way that people living today who did not in any way participate in those injustices may make amends without perpetrating further injustice.
quote:But it wasn't your point to begin with - it was Robespierre's, which you reinterpreted as a justification for the 'trampling' of blacks. My point was that Robespierre's point was not that the trampling of blacks was justified - rather his point was that affirmative action was unjustified as a solution to that past trampling.
Nice way to miss the point. Let me break it down for you by assigning a more real value to the letters you misrepresented.
quote:Leto, if you're calling what Robespierre has written so far an attempt to bait a flame war and get personal, I'd like to know how you would have responded if Robes said to you what you just said to him. I mean, you did just call him an 'ignorant, ignorant person', a troll (multiple times), and arrogant, as well as imply he only believes what he does because he's white, he is only attempting to insult you, and that he has no reasoning skills, among other things.
That's not funny, Tres, because while Robespierre is trying to bait a flame war, I have not dropped to that level.
quote:I was making a general observation, not responding to anyone in particular
am not saying that blacks deserve some sort of reparations. You are creating an argument that I have not made.
quote:In what way is the field not level? Or better, In what way is the field not level which can be fixed by exterior forces such as legislation? Any legislation aimed solely at aiding a given race will, in my opinion, help propagate the problem it seeks to solve.
I'm saying that the field of opportunity is, at this point and time, not level for non-whites. I'm saying that the field of opportunity should be level, and I've repeatedly pointed out how those who are quite comfortable with the current ideal are judging the opportunities from their easy perspective without taking into account those of other groups.
quote:It sounds like you have an idea of how you would fix the current situation. I would be interested to hear it. Personally I think that the only solution is to ignore race altogether and concentrate on economic status.
It's very easy to say the game is fair when you are in the winning group that, while not cheating at the moment, is "winning" (yes, I know the rhetorical connotation is allegorical, not direct) because of past cheating done by former members while continuing game play under uneven circumstance. I'm saying that the circumstances can be made equal, and that anyone who does not want that does not really want equality.
quote:But previously Leto II said(in no specific order):
That's not funny, Tres, because while Robespierre is trying to bait a flame war, I have not dropped to that level. You may not like how I debate, but I have stayed on topic and denied any jumps into flaming.
quote:If you want to accuse me of starting a flame war, go right on ahead and do it. I think its pretty obvious that you are turning this into a knock-down drag-out brawl, with no intention of listening or responding in a civil way.
How convenient coming from a white guy.
Storm Saxon is making excuses and blaming minorities for the problems caused by racism against them, but he'll gladly ignore me because "he just don't like me, mommy."
Sorry to break it to all the American white kids out there who believe that "colorblind" is the way to go—and I'm willing to place money on the fact that everyone who has posted that stance here is white as the driven snow
In essesnce, it's no less contributing to the hate and bigotry in the world than the guy who keeps a white hood in his closet and looks sideways at anyone other than a typical WASP.
Have fun ignoring away, Stormy, because you're acting just like the prejudicial bastards you damned with your first post.
Either keep it out of discussion—and out of your trolling tactics—or soon find yourself reported for misbehavior.
I told you that you are uninformed about what you were talking about, and told you why (because it's personal and not concerning you), yet you persist. You can jump up and down in anger about it if you wish, but it's none of your business.
Example number two of you having no clue what you're talking about.
I guess you can't be bothered to read not only the main title of this thread, but the links and statements of the very first post.
If you don't think that influences their view, then you are quite delusional.
your complete lack of comprehension is rather disgusting.
you probably couldn't comprehend that, even though I said it quite plainly more than once.
The problem, genius, is that racism is still alive and well
You seem perfectly happy in the present racist-based system. That doesn't surprise me, as you're probably white.
Please, elaborate on these "plenty of other non-white rich people" you so self-righteously claim as justification for your attitude. What percentage of non-whites would it take to satisfy your rage about my comments?
I don't know what fairy-tale land you live in,
What a line of utter baloney.
Nice try to make "the big picture" somehow negate the subject, but your misapplication of it belies your ignorance.
You had better come up with some pretty convincing evidence if you don't want to look like a bullshitting loudmouth in this case.
that it gives us some sort of precedent to behave like racist pricks by taking advantage that a few hundred years of wanton slavery has allowed. Your justifications are getting weaker and weaker.
Now you're just making things up.
I'm sure you're quite angry by now, but you would do well to take a break from your horrible logical fallacies before continuing to debate here.
totally missing my point yet again. Good job.
before I toss in my own empirical evidence showing what a farce that statement is, I'll let you go first to try and justify yourself. Good luck, and you had better come up with some reputable sources.
You are either seriously insane, or just have no clue what an illogical request that was.
You ignorant, ignorant person.
Each time you run your mouth considering it, you use more and more trolling tactics, up to and including trying to start a flame war. Good for you for sticking to your typical troll baiting tactics.
Speaking of which, I see that you have done jack and squat to quantify the claims you made where I challenged your source. I'll give you a few more hours before I show what a sham your statements were.
At face value they point out your ignorance and lack of perspective, and that makes you angry because it insults your self-assumed intelligence.
And yet you're the one posting more and more angrily, making up numbers and trying to rewrite history to support an incongruent ideology.
Nice way to miss the point.
quote:Edited to remove spite.
"Edited for spite"---you're saying you're not inciting a war, yet you are with this statement.
quote:In other words, you're not going to back up the stuff I challenged you on. The only "knock-down drag-out" thing here is the debate. Apparently, you're not able to validate what I challenged you on in my last reply. That's okay, because I'll go right ahead and post mine anyway...
If you want to accuse me of starting a flame war, go right on ahead and do it. I think its pretty obvious that you are turning this into a knock-down drag-out brawl, with no intention of listening or responding in a civil way.
quote:Indeed, the federal pilot study was small, but its results jibe with other studies. However, once in the workplace, discrimination does not end.
When the white tester applied, he was informed that that particular branch was not hiring. The bank representative referred him to their branch in .... He was given the telephone number and the name of the branch manager and the assistant manager. The bank representative instructed him to say he was referred by the Human Resource Department of the ... branch.
When his partner (black tester) followed up on his resume and letters of interest, he was told that his resume had been passed on to an interviewer and that he would be contacted within the next two weeks if they were interested. After receiving no response, the tester called to inquire about the status of his application. After placing several follow-up calls, he was told that his application was now "slate dated' (out of date) and was advised to submit another application.
quote:
During an OFCCP onsite review of Perini Building Company, we interviewed a Black male carpenter Foreman who had suffered racially derogatory language from his supervisor. In addition, the compliance officers found Confederate flags displayed at the work area, along with racial jokes and threats on the interior walls of the portable toilets. It was common practice for non-minority employees to use racial slurs and jokes. The contractor was cited for this problem and required to remove the Confederate flag. The offending supervisor had to formally apologize to the Black foreman for his use of derogatory language, and the contractor was required to hold meetings with employees to inform them that racially offensive language would not be tolerated. In another construction company, OFCCP staff also found problems of a racially hostile work environment. When interviewed by OFCCP compliance officers, the Superior Construction Company staff complained of the constant use of racially derogatory comments, profane language used when addressing minorities. One Black carpenter quit his job because of the treatment. OFCCP staff also received complaints from residents in the surrounding area that the superintendent of the work site used racial comments and profane language toward them while working in their communities. OFCCP required the company to take immediate action against the Superintendent, to extend a bona fide offer of employment to the Black carpenter who quit because of discriminatory treatment, and to provide him compensation, and to ensure a work environment free from harassment, intimidation and coercion.
quote:
During a routine compliance review of this contractor that supplies computer software services to NASA, OFCCP compliance officers discovered that two African American white collar workers (a woman account clerk and a male technician) were forced to unclog toilets, mop up urine and perform other demeaning tasks not required of nonminorities. The woman, who resigned rather than sustain the indignity of this unlawful treatment, received back pay from the contractor. The male was also made whole, including a promotion to a position he was denied.
quote:And the list goes on.
During an OFCCP onsite review of Diamond Walnut Growers, Inc., we interviewed employees who reported that the contractor maintained a hostile work environment towards minorities and women. The Compliance Officer investigated these allegations and found that some employees are continually engaged in conduct that causes a hostile work environment, including racial and sexual harassment and intimidation. Interviews further revealed that some employees engaged in offensive conduct such as racial and sexual comments, slurs, and jokes. Specifically, some employees use the terms "Niggers", Spicks, and Monkeys." The investigation disclosed that managers were aware of the racial and sexual slurs, as well as the jokes, but took no disciplinary actions against the employees. The contractor was cited for its failure to implement its EEO/AA and Anti-Harassment Policies. While no monetary settlement was required involving backpay, the contractor was required to provide regular training in EEO/AA and Anti-Harassment to both managers and employees on an annual or bi-annual basis, provide an open door policy whereby employees may make harassment complaints without fear of reprisal, provide a formal impartial process for investigating and resolving complaints by trained unprejudiced experts
quote:In case anyone is counting, that's a quarter million people who voted against integration. In 1996, not 1956 or 1966.
First, in 1996, an initiative was proposed to voters in Kentucky to repeal a provision in the state's constitution that stipulated that black and white children could not be educated in the same classrooms. Of course, this provision was nullified by the 1954 U.S. Supreme Court in the Brown decision, but the ban on racially integrated education remained in the official Kentucky state constitution for another 42 years. In 1996 Kentucky voters passed an amendment to remove the provision. However, nearly 250,000 Kentuckians, about a third of the total Kentucky electorate, voted to keep the provision as part of the official state constitution.
quote:Even on a law that had no more power, almost 40% of the people voted against allowing mixed marriages. In 1998. Astounding.
Two years later, in 1998, South Carolina voters were presented with the opportunity to remove an 1895 provision from the state constitution that banned marriages between blacks and whites. Of course, this clause also was moot because the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1967 that laws forbidding interracial marriages were unconstitutional. However, the provision remained part of the state constitution.
As expected, the amendment to the South Carolina constitution passed easily. But the remarkable aspect of the vote was the fact that in 1998 326,000 South Carolinians, 38 percent of the total South Carolina electorate, voted to retain the provision as part of the state constitution. In fact, a majority of voters in six counties in South Carolina voted to keep the ban on interracial marriage as part of the fundamental charter of the state.
quote:In 2000, the heralding year of the 21st century, there are still 40% of the people in Alabama who feel that mixed marriages should be illegal. However, before we begin a rash of south-bashing nonsense...
In November 2000, voters in Alabama were presented with a referendum to repeal a ban on interracial marriage which had been part of that state's constitution since 1901. More than 525,000 voters in Alabama — some 40 percent of the total electorate — voted to keep this provision as part of the fundamental law of the state. In view of the fact that blacks make up more than 20 percent of the voting age population in the state, and in all likelihood voted almost unanimously to remove the ban, it is probable that a majority of the white voters in the state wished to keep the ban on interracial marriage as part of the Alabama constitution. In fact, the referendum to remove the ban was voted down by a majority of voters in 24 of Alabama's 67 counties.
quote:339,000 voters. More than in South Carolina, and more than in Kentucky. In Oregon, which is not a southern state.
Finally, in 2002 voters in the traditionally liberal state of Oregon were offered the opportunity to remove racist language from the 1857 state constitution. The original language of the state constitution called for the apportionment of state Supreme and Circuit Court judgeships by the number of people in the "white population." Also, a provision of the 1857 state constitution called for a vote on whether slavery would be permitted in the new state and whether "free Negroes" and "mulattos" would be allowed to own property in the state. Oregon voters at that time voted "No" on both questions. To this day the language has remained part of the state's constitution.
Measure 14, which was put before the voters, called for the removal of the racist language. The measure passed. But 29 percent of all Oregon voters wanted to keep the racist language in the state constitution. More than 339,000 Oregonians voted "No" on the measure.
quote:Is prejudice alive and well in America? I would posit that it most definitely is.
The survey was administered to a cross-section of about 1,200 Americans and asked such questions as:With only one exception, minority groups were evaluated more negatively than whites in general. The one exception is Jews who were rated more favorably than whites on all characteristics except patriotism. African Americans and Latino/as were ranked last or next to last on almost every characteristic measured.
- "Do people in these groups tend to be unintelligent or tend to be intelligent?"
- "Do people in these groups tend to be hard-working or tend to be lazy?"
- "Do people in these groups tend to prefer to be self-supporting or do they tend to prefer to live off welfare?"
For instance, in response to the question about intelligence, African Americans and Latino/as were essentially tied at the bottom. Respondents evaluated African Americans as the laziest and as the group with the highest preference for living off welfare.
More than half the survey respondents rated African Americans as less intelligent than whites. Fifty-seven percent of non-African Americans rated African Americans as less intelligent than whites and thirty percent of African Americans themselves rated African Americans as less intelligent than whites. Sixty-two percent of the entire sample rated African Americans as lazier than whites and more than three out of four survey respondents said that African Americans are more inclined than whites to prefer welfare over work.
quote:And I forgot to add to that: almost all of that prejudice is eminating from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities. To even attempt to paint it any other way is ludicrous and indicative of a painfully ignorant and naive view.
Is prejudice alive and well in America? I would posit that it most definitely is.
)
quote:What do I need to validate? I have made no claims about numbers. You were posturing with your "I'll give you a few more hours before I show what a sham your statements were" statement. I see nothing in your exposition on topics already covered that disputes anything I am saying. No one on this board is claiming that there is no racism against blacks and hispanics. I do not claim that every white person is understanding and worldly and would never think badly of a minority. What I do claim, is that the racism you and others attribute to the poor standing of blacks in our society today is not as pervasive as you would have us believe.
Apparently, you're not able to validate what I challenged you on in my last reply.
quote:I say that the studies you cited found racism. However, as pointed out before, these instances do not represent the entire work place, or even a majority.
In the Banking industry, 15 branch locations of 10 separate banks in the Washington D.C. metropolitan area were contacted by telephone by both the black and white testers. Both testers mailed or faxed applications to 3 branch locations, one of which had not previously been contacted. Both testers filled out applications in person at 12 of the 13 other locations that had first been contacted by telephone. Follow-up calls were made, as a result of which the black tester was interviewed by 6 different branches and the white tester was interviewed by 6 different branches. These interviews were all conducted at 8 branches of 7 different banking employers. Only 4 branches interviewed both testers. Two (2) other branches interviewed only the black tester and the 2 remaining branches interviewed only the white tester.
Follow-up calls were made by both testers. The black tester received a second interview 3 times and the white tester received a second interview only 2 times. Two (2) branch locations of the same employer interviewed both the black and the white tester a second time. One (1) branch of another employer only interviewed the black tester a second time. This same branch only interviewed the black tester the first time. Interestingly, this branch did not make an offer to the black tester but rather made a job offer to the white tester who had never even been interviewed at all. However, another branch location of the same employer offered a job to the black tester but not the white tester without ever interviewing either individual.
quote:You seem to imply that this means 1/3 of Kentuckians are racist. While I would assume that most of those voting to keep the anti-integration policy were white, we do not know the #'s. What % of those that voted in the 1/3 were black or other? I would also point out that even if we assume this vote shows racism, it shows that 2/3 of the state is not racist.
However, nearly 250,000 Kentuckians, about a third of the total Kentucky electorate, voted to keep the provision as part of the official state constitution.
quote:Again, how many of those voting to keep the ban were white?
Even on a law that had no more power, almost 40% of the people voted against allowing mixed marriages. In 1998. Astounding.
quote:Was the study unable to obtain data on the racial makeup of the voters in Alabama? Why do they say "it is probable that a majority of the white voters in the state wished to keep the ban on interracial marriage" without actually providing any #'s? They may well be right, but if the #'s support them, why not show the #'s?
In view of the fact that blacks make up more than 20 percent of the voting age population in the state, and in all likelihood voted almost unanimously to remove the ban, as part of the Alabama constitution. In fact, the referendum to remove the ban was voted down by a majority of voters in 24 of Alabama's 67 counties.
quote:The idea that any group could be under-represented in a democratic government is not logical. Everyone's vote counts as ONE vote. What is the mechanism for this oppression? Should minorities be given more votes in order to "balance" this system? As I pointed out earlier, minorities actually get much more political say than most other groups. When politicians are able to tailor their messages to certain blocks of voters, they do so. Minorities are greedily fought over by both parties. While the democrats typically get most of the black vote(95% for Gore in 2000), both they and the Republicans will pander to the black vote endlessly. Republicans will go out of their way to show minority participation in their party, and democrats will put forth laws that benefit blacks. To say that minorities are under-represented is to ignore the political reality. Here is an interesting article by Walter Williams on the topic of political power for minorities.
that they are extremely under-represented throughout government.
quote:The "plain truth" as you put it, is not so plain. You offer no solution and not even a hint of what the actual problem is. I have stated many times that I believe the problems you point out can be solved by applying a large dose of capitalism. People who prosper together, will get along. I would say that if the government would cease its racially motivated programs, it would do much to ease tensions between races. When Blacks are told by the gov. that they are not smart enough to get into a university without help, they will eventually believe it. When whites are told that they do not deserve a spot in a university becuase a minority is less qualified but under-represented, they will resent this.
Dislike me all you wish; pre-judge me to whatever extreme your heart desires. Disregard the plain truth, however, and you're only hurting yourself.
quote:Those who oppose racial equality seem to enjoy blaming one particular race for ALL RACISM. I have not suggested that all racism is a result of black behaviour, and I would say neither has anyone else on this thread. The point originally made was that blacks who identify themselves primarily as blacks, and not americans, are doing plenty to seperate themselves from others based on race. This does not equate to "all racism is the fault of blacks"
And I forgot to add to that: almost all of that prejudice is eminating from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities. To even attempt to paint it any other way is ludicrous and indicative of a painfully ignorant and naive view.
quote:Why do you intentionally ignore what I have said about this, then state the contrary? I have not yet mentioned the Emancipation Proclamation. Nor have I claimed that state sponsored racism doesn't exist in the world. I have said just the opposite. I have said the US gov's program of Afirmative Action is indeed a state sponsered program of racism.
Robespierre is under the misguided assumption that since the Emancipation Proclamation, there has been no government-sponsored racism.
quote:You can't get a little bit pregnant.
I would also point out that even if we assume this vote shows racism, it shows that 2/3 of the state is not racist.
quote:Very cute. But would you tell us then, that since 1/3 of the population MAY be racist, that the entire state is racist?
You can't get a little bit pregnant.
quote:Hmph. Just for fun let's assume the N. Carolina percentage is the same. About 12 out of one hundred would be minority, so then about three out of the thirty three would've voted against integration.
What % of those that voted in the 1/3 were black or other?
quote:Not may be racist, voting against things like integration and interracial marriage is a clear indicator of racism. And 33% of the population is a hell of a lot more than you were suggesting before, when every post you made was filled with "ifs" and it's not as bad as you say. You're also pretending that that thirty three percent represents every single person of racist leanings.
Very cute. But would you tell us then, that since 1/3 of the population MAY be racist, that the entire state is racist?
quote:
The idea that there is a signifigant percentage of the minority community voting for things like segregationist language, criminalizing mixed marriages, etc., is the most ridiculous idea I've heard in a long, long time.
quote:Both of these claims are very much not true. The idea of not mixing marriages is a very old one, and may even be MORE prevalent among minority groups than majority groups. And voting for segregationist language may be an expression of anti-PCness more than anything.
Not may be racist, voting against things like integration and interracial marriage is a clear indicator of racism.
quote:I am saying that the vote is un-important. Segregation is not a White only concept. In the past, the state governments who were white enforced segregation. This cannot be denied. However, the past is just that, the past. If you can show that a majority of the 1/3 are in positions of hiring people, and that they are racist, and that they act on that racism, then you are making a point. One which has already been made and which is irrelevant to the argument, but a point.
The idea that there is a signifigant percentage of the minority community voting for things like segregationist language, criminalizing mixed marriages, etc., is the most ridiculous idea I've heard in a long, long time. It's nonsense, and you show just how flimsy and vacuous your arguments are by stating such.
quote:You who oppose racial equality are the only ones making statements about people based on their race. I have not claimed to know what any one group of people thinks or generalize how a group acts. This has solely been done by you who oppose the legal equity of all races.
Yup. Lots of self-hating minorities in America who just can't wait to cut themselves off from the mainstream, huh.
quote:No, I am saying that Leto's statements about the genetic evil of white people are way out of line, and that he must prove that slavery is something that only white's have participated in, or even done the majority of slave holding.
And it's nice that your last statement is that you win if whites haven't enslaved more people than the rest of the planet combined.
quote:Throughout history, jews have had laws forbiding inter-racial marriage. Most of these cases are in situations where the jewish population is the vast minority, places like venice, vienna, berlin, etc. Are these Jews racist? I do not judge them either way on this issue. However, you state that it is a given that those who oppose inter-racial marriage are racist, I say that this is not a given, and is a logically unsound way to test for racism in the overall population.
Not may be racist, voting against things like integration and interracial marriage is a clear indicator of racism.
quote:Wrong, my stance is that it happens to most people, white or black. Part of that stance is that the degree that you paint the situation is much too severe. You are a reverse racist for making statements about "white people". That is why I label you as someone who opposes racial equality. I have been arguing from the beginning that the only way to solve the problem is for all laws to apply equally for all people. Nothing short of this will solve the problem. You oppose this stance, which implies that you think it appropriate for the government to judge people based on their race. I would say that this is racism. Please show how I am am apologist for racism.
You're an apologist for racism, Robespierre. Your stance is first that it doesn't happen very often, and you're a reverse-racist for suggesting it does.
quote:Instead of making stuff up about me, why don't you quote what I have said. Show how what I have said leads to your conclusion.
When confronted with obvious evidence of concrete racism, then your defense is...well, all these people aren't racist, and besides, I'll just bet lots of minorities voted for measures that emasculate them.
quote:Will do!
John made no statements about the genetic evil of white people.
Take your own advice.
quote:Here Leto points out that he believes almost all prejudice in America to be coming from white people. He also makes statments like(in no particular order):
Quote:
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Is prejudice alive and well in America? I would posit that it most definitely is.
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And I forgot to add to that: almost all of that prejudice is eminating from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities. To even attempt to paint it any other way is ludicrous and indicative of a painfully ignorant and naive view.
quote:Leto has made it clear that he puts all white people in one catagory. Leto is the person here who is making judgements about people based on their race. Leto is the one dismissing arguments because of his perception of the race of those making the arguments.
Sorry to break it to all the American white kids out there who believe that "colorblind" is the way to go—and I'm willing to place money on the fact that everyone who has posted that stance here is white as the driven snow
How convenient coming from a white guy.
You seem perfectly happy in the present racist-based system. That doesn't surprise me, as you're probably white.
quote:Here you say that you do not oppose laws treating everyone equally. Then in the next sentence you say that you have never, not even one, said that you support laws that treat everyone equally. I am assuming that one of these statements is false, which one is it?
I do not oppose laws treating everyone equally. I have never, not even once, said I favored such laws.
quote:
Thus, racism in this country is not a national issue but a racial issue that each 'culture' and person in that culture, the white culture and the black culture, must resolve for themselves exclusive to each other until they see themselves as part of a cultural group that is determined not by skin color but by something else.
quote:You have never said this. However, as I have already explained, your arguments amount to this. I say that the government can do nothing to fix racism. Would you disagree with that statement?"
Where did I say I support laws favoring one race over another?
quote:This reasoning sounds rather circular to me. Blacks are poorer than whites because they are more likely to be unemployed. They are more likely to be unemployed because they are poor. Neither statement does anything to address why they are more likely to be poor and unemployed.
The bit about black unemployment levels being higher is not indicative or racism - it is to be expected in a country where blacks are significantly poorer than whites.
quote:Well, I'd argue the reason is primarily because of past racism that rendered their parents poor, not as much present racism.
This reasoning sounds rather circular to me. Blacks are poorer than whites because they are more likely to be unemployed. They are more likely to be unemployed because they are poor. Neither statement does anything to address why they are more likely to be poor and unemployed.
quote:Based on your previous arguments, I assume that by this you mean the government is incapable of changing the way people think about race. OK, I can accept that. But you've also said:
I say that the government can do nothing to fix racism.
quote:"Prospering together" implies an assumption that black people would be in a position to be financially successful, and that, if we are all doing as well as we can, racist tendencies will decrease. And from your previous arguments, I am pretty sure that you do think that eventually black people would be in such a position.
I have stated many times that I believe the problems you point out can be solved by applying a large dose of capitalism. People who prosper together, will get along.
quote:I would argue that these programs cannot possible accomplish their goals, and that many of their goals are racist to begin with.
Personally, I see no reason to suppose that getting rid of temporary government programs desiged to help minorities before they have accomplished their goals would cause racial prejudice and resentment to disappear.
quote:We don't know that it would heal the wounds, but that is not a reason to keep it around. I believe AA to be racist, to keep it on the books for any reason is not okay with me.
It's all well and good to say that Affirmative Action causes resentment and removing it would remove the resentment, but how do we know that?
quote:I think the proper course of action is to repeal all laws based on race. I was a supporter of the California ballot proposition that would have made the collection of racial data by the cal. gov. illegal.
a discussion of why each of us thinks a certain course of action will be advantageous (what are the benefits and end results?) and how the implementation will function (why will this course of action work?).
quote:I should clarify my previous statement, there is nothing the government can do to "directly" solve the problem of racism. You are correct in thinking that I am of the opinion that if capitalism is let loose, all will prosper.
Prospering together" implies an assumption that black people would be in a position to be financially successful, and that, if we are all doing as well as we can, racist tendencies will decrease. And from your previous arguments, I am pretty sure that you do think that eventually black people would be in such a position.
quote:Not only on the same financial level, but the same legal level. How people get to these levels is as important as being there. If minorities are given a chance, they will achieve the same success as all other groups in this country.
So here's the thing: if being on the same financial level will fix racism,
quote:Of course there is. I don't think any reasonable person would say there isn't. However, the point I made about black doctors was one that was discussed in a previous thread, I thought the example to be timely. If I implied that it would be reasonable to question a black doctor's qualifications now, I did not mean to. I don't personally think that a black doctor is any more or less qualified than a white doctor. However, this is the perception that is created when racial programs are in place.
I think it's important to point out that there's a huge difference between being admitted to a medical school and graduating from it.
quote:In this sentence, the word "fix" polarizes the concept of governmental involvement. Racism is a complex human behavior, and as Sopwith pointed out:
...the government can do nothing to fix racism. Would you disagree with that statement?
quote:Sopwith also made the connection between Racism and classism.
Racism can be regionalized by exposure and can run in many different directions.
quote:This is a good question, for which I don't have an answer. I would ask those that disagree to point out what it is that I have said that they disagree with.
What are they disagreeing with, then?
quote:This is incorrect. I have made NO assumptions about the race of those making racist attacks against me. It does not matter if those leveling the attacks are white, black, or latino. The attack still makes a judgement of me based on my race, and attempts to invalidate my point of view becuase of the color of my skin.
you have suggested that at least a couple of white guys in this thread are racist against you because you are white. In other words, while not making any overt statements like that one, you have nonetheless subtly made assumptions about their ethnicity.
quote:I believe that it has never been a just law. To say that it was not needed is to say that there has never been a problem, and clearly there was a problem. I just think that AA is a racist concept and has been since it was created.
Is it your belief that affirmative action is no longer necessary, or that it never was?
quote:When it can remain civil, this dialogue is a good thing.
Maybe this conflict, this agitation, is a good thing because only in this dialogue can we ever hope to decide as one people that the time has come.
quote:The main problem I see in this analogy is that those who started to play the game, are no longer playing. However, the choice of monopoly causes the analogy to seem overly simple. I understand that you know the analogy is flawwed. I just want to point out that in real life, properties can come up for sale, new businesses can be started, and new land developed. I understand and agree that the game was once stacked against minorities, but it no longer is, and there exists ample opportunity on our American game board for anyone who has the will to prosper.
Imagine we were playing Monopoly, and during our first three trips around the board, while I followed the normal rules, you began the game with only $500 instead of the usual $1500, and you were not allowed to buy any property at all. After three rounds, let's say I had an attack of conscience, and lifted those restrictions on you, so that now you could buy property.
quote:As stated before, I am not of the opinion that the problem is fixed when the %'s of minorities employed mimics the %'s of minorities in the population. This implies nothing about race relations. The only way equality can be achieved is when no applicant is accepted or denied on the basis of race.
and expressing my doubts over the assertion that the market would have eventually fixed it on its own.
quote:I can agree with this statement.
Perhaps, in our efforts to do the right thing, we've missed the obvious: the success of an individual innately falls upon the individual, no matter the disadvantages or advantages they are beset/blessed with.
quote:So what's your answer? It's not just but it was necessary? It was racist, but necessary?
quote:
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Is it your belief that affirmative action is no longer necessary, or that it never was?
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I believe that it has never been a just law. To say that it was not needed is to say that there has never been a problem, and clearly there was a problem. I just think that AA is a racist concept and has been since it was created.
quote:This is where we do not agree.
I understand and agree that the game was once stacked against minorities, but it no longer is. . . .
quote:Perhaps. Does this mean we should no longer concern ourselves with ending injustice? After all, hardworking, motivated people will overcome injustices, right?
The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.
quote:I would say that this is not a problem of racism, but class differences. Many people in the US get justice based on how much money they have, this is a problem effecting all races.
we still have a situation in which the other players don't charge each other rent and share properties back and forth, but don't think to extend the courtesy to the minority player. And there may even be a player or two who still secretly loathes the minority player and does his best to screw the other guy over.
quote:Not at all, I was covering myself from an obvious line of attack. If I said, no, it has never been needed, then I would be accused of saying there has never been racism.
So what's your answer? It's not just but it was necessary? It was racist, but necessary?
quote:First of all, you dismissed your own argument, and I asked you what you meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Second, I'm not really closer to understanding the answer to the (cleverly phrased) topic of the thread. If being black defines who you are, then is it possible to not be racist?
A lot of people dismiss arguments by harping on one minor issue in them.
quote:As much as I may agree that human decency and respect are more important than money, I think it's interesting to note that, typically, the people who advance such viewpoints in discussions about race and class relations are members of the group with the power. According to some theorists, Marx for example, things like ideals tend to fall by the wayside when you don't have enough money to feed and clothe yourself.
It's one thing I dislike about these discussions, it always seems to devolve into the dollar. Money isn't the single bellweather here. Human decency and respect are.
quote:I don't think anyone here has a problem understanding that the rules were once stacked against minorities. The problem when you discuss this issue in such an analogy is that it paints the wrong sort of back-drop on the situation. If you likened the situation to a white person holding a club, then beating any black person who tried to apply for a job, you would be using an analogy, and painting the wrong picture with it.
It was my hope that those of you who feel that racism's effects are a thing of the past would not harp on details but see the larger point I was trying to make.
quote:Back up the truck, bucko! Jews have NEVER had laws forbidding inter-racial marriage. Forbidding intermarriage with people of other faiths, yes. But should a person of ANY race or ethnicity convert, that takes care of the prohibition.
Throughout history, jews have had laws forbiding inter-racial marriage. Most of these cases are in situations where the jewish population is the vast minority, places like venice, vienna, berlin, etc. Are these Jews racist? I do not judge them either way on this issue. However, you state that it is a given that those who oppose inter-racial marriage are racist, I say that this is not a given, and is a logically unsound way to test for racism in the overall population.
quote:I understand your point here, but would say that capitalism is the only true way to solve the problem, and it does not act quickly. Creating AA, in my opinion, has shifted the problem to a whole new group of people, while not solving the problem for the people it was originally intended to help. I oppose AA because I see it as racism, and I am of the opinion that one cannot fix racism with counter-racism.
you're qualified or justified to say whether or not AA should or should not have been created. Maybe racism was the quickest, or only tool known to fight racism.
quote:Actually, you illustrate my point perfectly, that the use of analogy can bring un-wanted overtones and implications into the debate. I did not mean the analogy as a serious one, but rather to point out how they can used to change the tone without any reasonable facts.
To use your own analogy, it's as if the person holding the club had already gone three rounds against an unarmed person, then threw the weapon away to "even things up" but the fight continued on with one person already battered and bruised.
quote:I am referring to the Jewish ghettos of the dark and middle ages. I was under the impression that other races were not allowed to convert to judaism, and this therefor, would prohibit inter-racial marriage. If I am wrong about that, let me know, I am honestly unsure.
Jews have NEVER had laws forbidding inter-racial marriage. Forbidding intermarriage with people of other faiths, yes. But should a person of ANY race or ethnicity convert, that takes care of the prohibition.
quote:The fact is that it judges people on the color of their skin. Thats as far as I am willing to take it before I say it's un-just. Anything that follows from it is also unjust.
The problems with it, however, have been greatly exagerated and claims to it being reverse discrimination, while attractive at times, are sadly lacking in any concrete proof.
quote:This once again brings us back to the discussion topic of the forum, which addresses more directly the question of what racism really is.
Robes, are you basing your idea of racism on the situation in the 18- or 19- 60s? Those aren't necessarily grandchildren who are still facing racism, if you're working on the last 50 years.
quote:To most people of a minority race, noticing someone's race is not racism. Noticing someone's race AND using it as a reason to assume that person is inferior is racism. And, quite to the contrary, not only do we notice what color a person's hair is, but, as I understand it, we also use that and physical information to define and even judge the people we meet. The problem with such a comparison is that hair color does not have the same cultural correlation as race. To many people, ignoring their race is the same as ignoring their culture, which is more or less the same as ignoring them.
Racism only goes away when you see a person and you don't notice what colour they are. Just like when you see someone with brown hair and someone with blonde hair, you don't really notice that, because it's not significant in any way other than remembering the person. Racism will only stop existing when people stop thinking about it, and it becomes merely a feature like hair or eyes. No one ever gets annoyed when you ask what colour their hair is, because it's not a feature that has any insinuations attached to it. One day, race will be like this, then racism will be dead.
quote:Would it really be equal opportunity if one group did not, by and large, have the financial wherewithal to prepare themselves as well as another group, and also did not have the social power to have much hope of ever getting such a financial position?
This gets back to the idea of equal outcome VS equal opportunity.
quote:I would say that yes, it would be equal opportunity. Equal opportunity implies that laws apply equally to all people. There are plenty of whites that don't have the wherewithal to prepare themselves. And this leads us back to my belief that capitalism can solve these issues, if only it is applied enough.
Would it really be equal opportunity if one group did not, by and large, have the financial wherewithal to prepare themselves as well as another group, and also did not have the social power to have much hope of ever getting such a financial position?
quote:When I play a video game, the rule set in the game can be separate from the starting conditions. The game could be different every time I play it. As long as success is always possible within the rule set (i.e. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).
Our form of government can't remove racism, it can only set penalties for it. Our educational system can't remove racism, it can only preach tolerance and expose our youth to many cultures.
quote:I think we have been over this ground before. Since the US is not truly a capitalist society, you cannot use the current US to judge what a truly capitalist economy would do.
It's worth noting that capitalism "solves" these issues by starving to death the people who don't apply themselves.
quote:Just what do you mean by this? Are you saying people in non-capitalist countries are lazy and didn't apply themselves?
Starvation occurs most in countries where there is the least amount of capitalism. This is no accident.
quote:Of course I am not saying that people in non-capitalist countries are lazy. Although I am curious, why would it matter one way or another how hard one works in a non-capitalist system?
Just what do you mean by this? Are you saying people in non-capitalist countries are lazy and didn't apply themselves?
quote:Ok, then name a "truely capitalist society" in the present world, Robespierre. I doubt you or anybody else can. That's the same cop-out my ex-girlfriend, The Last of the Communists, would use when she couldn't defend the policies of the USSR or Red China or Cuba--"they aren't REAL communists." Of course, by her definition there had never been a real communist system, so she was free to keep her arguments in a idealistic dream world without enough contact to the real world. The US comes closest to pure capitalism in the G7 nations, I'll wager.
Since the US is not truly a capitalist society, you cannot use the current US to judge what a truly capitalist economy would do.
People perhaps starve because they fell down and can't move, or they refuse to eat, or have some disease that prevents them from eating.
Starvation occurs most in countries where there is the least amount of capitalism.
quote:French revolution sources:link1 link2
Robespierre, “the incorruptible”, is the “champion of the little people”, sternly pursuing revolutionary logic until he falls foul of this very logic when he turns on his plebeian supporters
Robespierre gave the poor price controls on bread with one hand but took away their power with the other, crushing their leadership and organisations. He thus found himself isolated when right-wing forces overthrew him and took both power and bread from the poor.
quote:You are correct in this point, there are not now and have never been any truly capitalist nations. When that argument is pushed far enough, it fails just as you point out. However, the US comes the closest to true capitalism, and I would say that this is the reason the US is the most successful of all the nations.
arguments in a idealistic dream world without enough contact to the real world.
quote:In the United States, I would guess that very very few starve. Of these few, I doubt that there are ANY AT ALL who have just gotten fired from their job, or who just can be productive enough. To starve in the United States, one has to try very hard. This does not apply to children. When children starve, it is the result of abusive parents, or some similar situation.
So people starve because they've fallen and they can't get up? That would be funny if it wasn't tragically callous.
quote:I would tell you that the main cause of all those tragedies was government manipulation of the markets, not the system of capitalism.
But it was capitalism's finest hour.
quote:Fair enough about the name thing, though of course it was your choice to pick a notorious figure from history for a screen name.
I would tell you that the main cause of all those tragedies was government manipulation of the markets, not the system of capitalism.
As for the Robespierre thing, I would point out that the only thing we share is a name.
quote:You did not read my whole post. I said that anyone who claims that the racism most prevalent today is not only perpetrated by whites, but is the product of hundreds of years of white (European or European-descent) racism. "Almost all" prejudice in America is white on non-white. To even attempt to portray otherwise, given the population and the vast majority of both criminal convictions (in that area) and case studies is to basically deny the plain facts that are sitting there for you to read.
Leto, can you clarify something for me? You said “And I forgot to add to that: almost all of that prejudice is eminating from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities” I read this to mean almost all of the prejudice in America.
However, your next post deals with world-wide racism by whites. Did you mean that almost all prejudice in the world is emanating from white communities outward?
Dagonee
quote:Oh, yes you did. AND I quote:
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Apparently, you're not able to validate what I challenged you on in my last reply.
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What do I need to validate? I have made no claims about numbers.
quote:To which I asked you to list those top 50 "plenty." No reply.
White people are the only faces among the world's richest? Alsaud, Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal is #6. And there are plenty of other non-white rich people in the world.
quote:To which I replied: PROVE IT. You have, to date, not.
I would argue that the slavery perpetrated by whites is a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall amount of people in the entire world that have been slaves.
quote:SOURCE Note the study: National Opinion Research Center
Your citation of some un-sourced poll about perceived percentages of population of the races shows just that, what people perceive the % population of minorities to be. I disagree that this shows americans then think that minorities have it better than they actually do because of a greater physical presence.
quote:You are proposing that blacks have no problems, or are creating their own problems. Obviously, that is not so.
As far as your cited studies about hiring practices, how do they apply to what I have said about the morality of applying laws based on skin color?
quote:The study you quoted was a smaller study that was narrowed down to about nine places. As I said, multiple other studies pretty much corroborate those results, the most popular of which I linked (the Washington Post study). Just because I do not list for you all of the multiple studies done on the issue does not mean they do not exist. In fact, many of them are general knowledge, both with minority rights and womens rights. Check out the ACLU's site for a listing, if you wish. I've supported my statements with a crapload more in one post than you have the entire thread. If you want to start tossing out attempts to discredit through no sources linked, then nothing you have said thus far means a damn thing.
I say that the studies you cited found racism. However, as pointed out before, these instances do not represent the entire work place, or even a majority.
quote:When you put words into my mouth, it shows that you have poor critical thinking skills, and cannot debate anything without creating straw men. I said that there were, even in this modern day, a great deal of racist people taking part in government. Every post you have made has been to the effect of, "yeah, there is racism, but it's not anywhere important." No, you did not say those precise words, but you may as well have.
When you cite the voting records of certain states and claim that those states are racist, you make many assumptions.
quote:More ignorance. In the early 1900's, voting was made private for a reason. Polls could be taken outside the voting areas to gauge what specific people voted, but these were not done or are not cited in the link. That you even try to claim that this makes the implication that a third of the voting public of a state voted to keep a racist legislation any less bad is astounding.
While I would assume that most of those voting to keep the anti-integration policy were white, we do not know the #'s. What % of those that voted in the 1/3 were black or other?
quote:I would like to point out yet again that I wasn't saying that Kentucky (or any of the other states) were majority racist. I was showing that with just the three states I pointed out, almost a million voters voted in favor of outright racist legislation. Even if the number was whittled down to a quarter or a fifth for each state and counted across all fifty, the incredible amount of open racism is staggering. However, I was pointing out the incredibly high numbers in these well-known cases, and showing that your claims that racism not being a very big problem are very much false and apologetic towards a presently racism system.
I would also point out that even if we assume this vote shows racism, it shows that 2/3 of the state is not racist.
quote:More attempts to discredit through ignorance. You're not even debunking what I said, just creating a question that you do not want answered. You are more than willing to believe that if even three percent of those total votes were black, that it would somehow justify the 97 percent that were white somehow (arbitrary numbers, but a ballpark figure from numbers given for actual population statistics to registered voters by ethnicity). Completely ludicrous. You're willing to accept that a small number of blacks allowing racism as if it meant the majority of blacks, yet when constant and a wide variety of proof is given for actual prevalence of white racism, you are trying to downplay it as if it's not so bad. Do you even realize how apologist you are sounding?
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Even on a law that had no more power, almost 40% of the people voted against allowing mixed marriages. In 1998. Astounding.
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Again, how many of those voting to keep the ban were white?
quote:
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In view of the fact that blacks make up more than 20 percent of the voting age population in the state, and in all likelihood voted almost unanimously to remove the ban, as part of the Alabama constitution. In fact, the referendum to remove the ban was voted down by a majority of voters in 24 of Alabama's 67 counties.
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Was the study unable to obtain data on the racial makeup of the voters in Alabama? Why do they say "it is probable that a majority of the white voters in the state wished to keep the ban on interracial marriage" without actually providing any #'s? They may well be right, but if the #'s support them, why not show the #'s?
quote:Your "point" about democratic votes counting as one vote will be applicable the day America is a literal democracy. As it stands, America is—and has always been—a representative democracy. And by representation, this means that groups of people are represented in our branches by elected officials who make decisions to benefit the groups they represent. Blacks make up roughly a bit more than a tenth of the United States. Blacks do not have a tenth of representation within the whole of government, and arguably in a few areas (like the Supreme Court).
The idea that any group could be under-represented in a democratic government is not logical. Everyone's vote counts as ONE vote. What is the mechanism for this oppression? Should minorities be given more votes in order to "balance" this system?
quote:PROVE IT. Don't you dare try to argue against my post by attacking source and then failing to cite your own is complete and utter bull-crap on your part, and representative of how weak and fallacious your stance truly is. You have cited nothing to back that claim up. Prove how minorities have more political say than whites.
As I pointed out earlier, minorities actually get much more political say than most other groups.
quote:Once again, prove it. Read any federal government textbook, and it will clearly point out that smaller groups like individual minority groups are not heavily campaigned to except in city and county elections, or only through media in larger ones. You not only have me to prove wrong, but you have a number of textbooks to prove wrong.
When politicians are able to tailor their messages to certain blocks of voters, they do so. Minorities are greedily fought over by both parties.
quote:Name some laws to specifically benefit blacks (try to not use AA for once). Republicans going out of their way to show support from minorities comes off like waving the "token black guy" in a crowd of over 90% middle-aged white men. The Democratic conventions are only slightly better (and in some cases, not at all).
While the democrats typically get most of the black vote(95% for Gore in 2000), both they and the Republicans will pander to the black vote endlessly. Republicans will go out of their way to show minority participation in their party, and democrats will put forth laws that benefit blacks.
quote:Which does not mention how much political power they hold, and is basically a short argument that political power does not equate to economic power. His argument is not as much racially driven as it is economically driven, and he's using a generalized case of ethnicity as a qualifier to show how poliutical power does not equate to economic power. Whatever point you hoped to make by linking this was fruitless, because he states it pretty clearly a few times that what I just said was his point.
Here is an interesting article by Walter Williams on the topic of political power for minorities.
quote:You're not even willing to acknowledge the problem, so your accusation about a solution is rather ridiculous. As far as you are concerned, there is no problem. Actually, you are saying that the problem is that of the blacks.
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Dislike me all you wish; pre-judge me to whatever extreme your heart desires. Disregard the plain truth, however, and you're only hurting yourself.
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The "plain truth" as you put it, is not so plain. You offer no solution and not even a hint of what the actual problem is.
quote:This is as stupid a statement as those who would like to fool themselves into thinking socialism will solve all of the world's ills. You need to stop trying to apply economic systems as a way to fix social problems, or else you are never going to seem like you are "getting" the point. That you even attempt to apply an economic system to a social problem shows that you have not thought the issue out, and are now just spouting ideological rhetoric.
I have stated many times that I believe the problems you point out can be solved by applying a large dose of capitalism.
quote:Examples? Of course not—more ideological rhetoric without basis in fact.
People who prosper together, will get along.
quote:Um, blacks have been told this by everyone for the last half century. As I showed up above in the survey about people's attitudes towards different ethnicities, it is still a popular thought today. Government programs haven't magically brought this to bear. It's been around for centuries. And if you are so naive that you really feel how "smart" you are is what gets you admittance into a college, then it's really not worth debating with you any longer, because you obviously have no clue about the requirements colleges have for admittance (of which academic scores are only part of).
When Blacks are told by the gov. that they are not smart enough to get into a university without help, they will eventually believe it.
quote:I keep hearing this. I am going to state my reply in boldface, so it is easier for you to read: where are the mass examples of whites being turned down in lieu of non-whites? I keep hearing this mentioned, but never cited. It sounds more to me like a scaled-down version of the "they're out to get us" claims made on many openly racist sites and literature throughout the nation and world (and history).
When whites are told that they do not deserve a spot in a university becuase a minority is less qualified but under-represented, they will resent this.
quote:Your two errors here:
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And I forgot to add to that: almost all of that prejudice is eminating from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities. To even attempt to paint it any other way is ludicrous and indicative of a painfully ignorant and naive view.
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Those who oppose racial equality seem to enjoy blaming one particular race for ALL RACISM.
quote:You have, and Storm Saxon has from the very first post. In fact, the whole of what you say boils down to, "yeah, there is still racism, but nowadays the racism is mostly on the side of the blacks, and they should fix that."
I have not suggested that all racism is a result of black behaviour, and I would say neither has anyone else on this thread.
quote:Then by that logic, one should not identify themselves from any heritage, nor even national association. In fact, why have borders? Acknowledging our diversity is not separatist. Being separatist is when one uses a specific qualifier to physically, economically, or socially separate themselves from the rest of society. The Nation of Islam is a prime example of this, as is a large part of the Libertarian Party platform (however, in a different manner, and for different reasons). Acknowledging and accepting our diversity is the only way people can learn to not let differences that ethnicities have become a barrier for equal and pro-social relations. Everything you have argued supports an inequality of state and the demand that diversity not be embraced (and instead ignored). If something is ignored, it does not go away.
The point originally made was that blacks who identify themselves primarily as blacks, and not americans, are doing plenty to seperate themselves from others based on race.
quote:I never said racism is a white problem only. I did, however, say that racism in America is a problem not only originating from whites, but propagated by a white-biased system.
This does not equate to "all racism is the fault of blacks"
You seem to be claiming that prejudice is only a "white problem". Is this your claim?
quote:I have not advocated Affirmative Action once. I have not advocated Affirmative Action at all. In case you didn't read, I have not advocated Affirmative Action. Now stop trying to use that when debating me. What you have not properly debated with me is that the current government and economic system is biased towards whites. In fact, you claim otherwise without any basis in fact.
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Robespierre is under the misguided assumption that since the Emancipation Proclamation, there has been no government-sponsored racism.
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Why do you intentionally ignore what I have said about this, then state the contrary? I have not yet mentioned the Emancipation Proclamation. Nor have I claimed that state sponsored racism doesn't exist in the world. I have said just the opposite. I have said the US gov's program of Afirmative Action is indeed a state sponsered program of racism.
quote:Yet another glaring fallacy. Racism does not equal slavery, which is my point. Racism and racist actions have been taken more by European nations throughout history than most of the rest of the world, and like I said, up until the 1990s, many of those white European systems were still in place. And you have no right to challeng my "#'s" [sic], since you can't provide your own. In fact, I was the first to challenge you on your statement to the contrary, and you have yet to quantify the results. However, allow me to give you a partial list of nations Europe has over-run and used for slave labor or ruled through racism throughout history: Morocco, Algeria, Syria, India, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar (Burma), the Philippines, Australia, not to mention all the way up the Ivory Coast, including South Africa. By all means, Robespierre, please inform everyone of some other general ethnicity other than caucasians who were so thorough in their colonial racism.
As per your comments on the prevelance of white owned slaves in the history of the world, where are your #'s? How many slaves have there been since the beginning of time, and how many were owned by whites?
quote:I've not once said that there was a "genetic evil of white people." Once again, you are trying to validate your argument by creating arguments your opponent never made. That is a Straw Man, and if you continue with it, you are not going to be worth debating, because you are admitting defeat by making up your own arguments.
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And it's nice that your last statement is that you win if whites haven't enslaved more people than the rest of the planet combined.
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No, I am saying that Leto's statements about the genetic evil of white people are way out of line, and that he must prove that slavery is something that only white's have participated in, or even done the majority of slave holding.
quote:No, I believe that almost all prejudice eminates from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities. Note the word "almost" as well as the generalities to "communities" instead of saying "everyone." You are really terrible at understanding the English language if you got what you got from that statement.
And I forgot to add to that: almost all of that prejudice is eminating from white communities outward, with residual effects on minority communities. To even attempt to paint it any other way is ludicrous and indicative of a painfully ignorant and naive view.
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Here Leto points out that he believes almost all prejudice in America to be coming from white people.
quote:Nope, just apologists like you who are happy to live in an ethnocentric world.
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Sorry to break it to all the American white kids out there who believe that "colorblind" is the way to go—and I'm willing to place money on the fact that everyone who has posted that stance here is white as the driven snow
How convenient coming from a white guy.
You seem perfectly happy in the present racist-based system. That doesn't surprise me, as you're probably white.
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Leto has made it clear that he puts all white people in one catagory.
quote:You forgot "and Leto is the only one who has taken every point I have tried to make, ripped it to shreds, and shown factual basis for every bit of contention." If I was dismissing you, Robespierre, I would be doing like Storm Saxon has been doing to me, and not replying. I even pointed out the prejudice SS is displaying by this behavior, but he is content to live in hypocrisy... so be it. I, however, have responded in spades to you, despite your straw man attacks, your blatant trolling for a flame war, and your habit of making up history. Like I said, the only judgement I have made is about apologists like you. And yet you keep your apologetics up and act like I'm attacking anyone who is white. It's not a coincidence that many people who are white have posted here as not only not felt attacked by my posts, but actually agree. You should perhaps put some thought into that, and whether or not you are actually judging from an ethnocentric viewpoint. I don't actually expect you to, but the offer should be made available, even to the most unrepentant of apologists.
Leto is the person here who is making judgements about people based on their race. Leto is the one dismissing arguments because of his perception of the race of those making the arguments.
quote:Ladies and gentlemen, this is why an economist will never run the country.
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Would it really be equal opportunity if one group did not, by and large, have the financial wherewithal to prepare themselves as well as another group, and also did not have the social power to have much hope of ever getting such a financial position?
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I would say that yes, it would be equal opportunity. Equal opportunity implies that laws apply equally to all people.
quote:FIND SOME. And just because I only gave two links on the matter, don't fool yourself into thinking those are the only two. Those are the only two I keep bookmarked on my computer. If you really think those results are not indicative of a larger representation, as I said already, go to the ACLU website or search on your own. Ask Kayla if she would help. You will find that instances where blacks or hispanics are discriminated or actively mistreated outweighs the handful of incidents you may possibly find of whites. I can't even believe you tried to claim that they were similar in number.
e stories from various workplaces are anecdotal. It would be easy enough to find similar accounts of whites being mistreated because of their skin color, but a few cases of something happening does not imply a widespread problem.
quote:Tres, that is actually infuriating. If you cannot prove such an utter and outright lie, then I suggest you remove such rubbish from the post. I find it hard to believe you actually feel that.
Actually, I believe minorities are more likely to be racist than whites - mainly because they're kinda allowed to.
quote:Why don't you get back to us when you read everything? You go on in your post to accuse me of racism without proof, yet you accuse me of not showing Robespierre's racism. I show how the attitudes Robespierre is expressing are racist or racist-apologetic by nature in more than one post, yet you disregard that.
I've read through most of the forum, and am a little shocked at the negative response to Robespierre's comments.
Not once did I hear Robespierre make a racist statement, and yet Leto tries to invalidate questions or statements he makes based on race.
I would have to dissect the arguments more to find out why, but the shifts in focus are interesting.
quote:Considering a great deal of my reply to his rebuttal was "that's not what I said" due to his creating arguments I never made in order to attempt to rebut, I would say he did a piss-poor job in everything but length.
Sorry if this is a little off-topic. I'd also like to say that though I disagree with many of Robespierre's views, I do admire your debating skills. Your refutation of LetoII's long stat-filled post was surprisingly good.
quote:How generous of you!
I even pointed out the prejudice SS is displaying by this behavior, but he is content to live in hypocrisy... so be it.
quote:Your tactic of getting more and more angry doesn't seem to be working, it doesn't make you any more insightful or any more correct. As for your issues with storm saxon, I could care less. Please stop bringing it up, its your problem, you deal with it.
It's not a coincidence that many people who are white have posted here as not only not felt attacked by my posts, but actually agree. You should perhaps put some thought into that, and whether or not you are actually judging from an ethnocentric viewpoint. I don't actually expect you to, but the offer should be made available, even to the most unrepentant of apologists.
quote:Your statement here is clearly false.
Laws apply equally" and "equal opportunity" are mutually exclusive
quote:Yeah, I NOTED that, it gives your racism a nice happy shiney outer-casing.
Note the word "almost" as well as the generalities to "communities" instead of saying "everyone."
quote:I am almost certain that you are correct here.
then it's really not worth debating with you any longer,
quote:I am speaking about my OPINION on racism. You seem to think the issue can be proven correct one way or the other by your rampant googling. None of these things can be objectively proven, you know this. And when you post something so specific as a poll, you may expect people to wonder where the poll came from.
Don't you dare try to argue against my post by attacking source and then failing to cite your own is complete and utter bull-crap on your part, and representative of how weak and fallacious your stance truly is. You have cited nothing to back that claim up. Prove how minorities have more political say than whites.
quote:I did too read your whole post. The first one in question here made the point you state above: that most racism in America is white on non-white. I agree with you here, if for no other reason that the numbers and relative economic power make it so.
Leto II said:
You did not read my whole post. I said that anyone who claims that the racism most prevalent today is not only perpetrated by whites, but is the product of hundreds of years of white (European or European-descent) racism. "Almost all" prejudice in America is white on non-white. To even attempt to portray otherwise, given the population and the vast majority of both criminal convictions (in that area) and case studies is to basically deny the plain facts that are sitting there for you to read.
quote:This is a good idea.
I am no longer going to continue going back and forth with you.
quote:Do I? Where have I posted an inaccurate quote of something you posted?
You keep intentionally misquoting me
quote:This is the best defense you have been able to muster. Name calling. Before I was just a white guy, now I am ethnocentric.
You are convinced and happy to be apologetic to your ethnocentric views.
quote:Yeah, what exactly have you been saying? I certainly don't claim to know what you're talking about.
you cannot fathom what so many people here have been saying repeatedly
quote:Check out your last long winded reply, the one with all the mock rhetoric. That is a serious chunk of nothing. You made some points about issues previously discussed. I pointed this out and refuted your racism. I am not going to address the same points with you 5 or 6 times. Decide what it is that you are saying, and make that point. Tell me what you think about the issue.
and instead reply with more and more useless and baseless rhetoric. It's tiresome and pointless.
quote:This is correct, I am.
Oh, and everyone note: he's accusing me of being angry and seething,
quote:All your vaunted information is meaningless! I pointed this out in my rebuttal to your initial tirade. What is it that you have shown with your information? Have you shown that I am wrong? Is my opinion that people should never be judged by their skin color, wrong?
yet I'm the one methodically putting together information (which is not googled, save for the state ballots).
quote:[sarcasm]
Also note that he has gone from claiming everything he says is totally true to claiming opinion.
quote:Yes yes, you have all sorts of facts, and they add up to nothing.
I gave facts, I gave sources for facts, and I backed up every summary I gave.
quote:You're right, maybe when I finish my swim in the sea of white priviledge, I will towel myself off with my white priviledge towel and drive to my white priviledge home and enjoy some tasty white priviledge steaks. Maybe when I am done there, I will return to the real world, who knows?
Maybe when you get out in the real world, you'll learn how your OPINION is not all it's cracked up to be.
quote:What unit of measure does on use to quantify racism so that you may make claims about its relative equality or lack there of in any culture over another?
claim that since whites are not the only ones being racist, that all ethnicities are equally racist (using the ever-so-fallacious "Two Wrongs Make a Right argument as well as blatantly misrepresenting the actual presence of racism for each ethnicity)
quote:Maybe racism is always relative to the people involved.
...it's not all black and white, figuratively or literally. Racism can be regionalized by exposure and can run in many different directions.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:This is a brilliant statement. It takes us back to the original topic in a good way. There is no way to attribute blame for racism to any one group. The very concept itself is racist. Racism, as you point out, is a very personal thing. To be sure, it IS very strongly effected by economics and even proximity. But all these are merely factors which may contribute to racism, not the root cause of it.
Racism is a stance bred from both the individual and the segment of society they are brought up in. Be you black, white, Hispanic, Asian or whatever, you always have within your power the ability to selectively shift your perspective of another person. There is no membership card needed, there is no class that has to be taken. You simply believe in it and then externalize it.
quote:Tom, what would you say is the root cause of racism in an individual? Is the individual ever responsible for his or her own thoughts?
I love Sopwith's argument. It's like those people who claim that global warming theorists are egotistical.
quote:Nice try to twist it. When you get out of college in four years, and finally enter a world that is not primarily viewed as an ideological hypothetical, you will see that the application to the hypothetical world you have come to know and love does not work the same as the real world. Some of this you will learn while in school. Some of this—like your attitude of capitalism as a panacea—are just going to take time and experience, instead of hypothetical and book-work experience.
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Maybe when you get out in the real world, you'll learn how your OPINION is not all it's cracked up to be.
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You're right, maybe when I finish my swim in the sea of white priviledge, I will towel myself off with my white priviledge towel and drive to my white priviledge home and enjoy some tasty white priviledge steaks. Maybe when I am done there, I will return to the real world, who knows?
quote:But earlier he said:
Nice try to twist it. When you get out of college in four years...
quote:Have you changed your mind?
I am no longer going to continue going back and forth with you.
quote:Are you saying that you don't believe that the vast majority of racism in America is perpetrated by whites on non-whites?
Leto's assertion that whites hold the bragging rights to racism is, strangely enough, a racist effort in its own rights. It states, pretty much, we are the kings of this little cesspit and everyone else's attempts at it pale in comparison.
code:What the--
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quote:This is true. However, there are more than two groups. I do not believe it is not my responsibility to stop it, or that there is nothing I can do. Where do I draw the line between solving other pressing problems in my life and preventing racism?
so they do not view it as “their” problem. This leads people of good intent believe two things:
1) “Racism is perpetrated by ‘others,’ so it’s not my responsibility to stop it.”
2) “I’m not in the Klan, I don’t discriminate in hiring, renting, or any other aspect of my commercial or private life, so I’m not racist.”
The civil rights movement was successful because it brought home the reality of racism in the South to those people of good intent who had previously maintained their neutrality through ignorance. It forced people to choose sides.
quote:Actually, I always thought this was a pretty poor example. I mean, they went into Denny's and got no service?! Hello! That happens to everyone at Denny's!
Witness the reaction to Denny’s treatment of the black Secret Service agents.
quote:Too true. When I was in high school, I hung out with the theater crowd. We would regularly go to Denny’s after a late-night movie, get a table, and wait while we watched 5 or 6 groups that came in after us get served meals before we got drinks.
Megachirops said:
Actually, I always thought this was a pretty poor example. I mean, they went into Denny's and got no service?! Hello! That happens to everyone at Denny's!
quote:This question is extremely loaded, and doesn't really say anything. Leto, I think you have a talent for trying to get under peoples collars.
Are you seriously saying that racist ideas which permeate even to today are not the result of white racism?
quote:Rakeesh, what have I been speaking of as though it were fact? I have stated what I believe should be done to alleviate some of the racial tension in America. What numbers prove me wrong?
You love speaking as though it's fact...until someone pops up and gives you hard numbers. Then, when the numbers are proven reasonably valid, it's, "But I'm only speaking my OPINION on racism."
quote:This sounds loaded because it is loaded. I never said any of those things, and I don't disagree with what you're saying now. You bring them up in a frame that suggest (indirectly) that I did bring them up. Our goal was to define racism, and determine the answer to the question of the thread, which is where your discussion is now leading us.
It may sound loaded to you, but can you really deny that it is not so? Can you really deny that there is an ethnic bias in America today, and that almost all of it stems from racist roots? Can you really attribute trends that span across the nation with regard to prejudice as if they were merely isolated, individual incidents and nothing more?
quote:From this, I hear you saying:
but the more insidious and underlying prejudices and ethnocentric ideas are what keep the nation at a constant level of inequality, not the extremes.
If being any ethnicity is the sole defining factor of who you are, then you are most likely in one of those above-listed extremist groups
quote:That's great unintentionally self-deprecatory passive-aggressive irony, John.
Nice of you to not answer my questions, Sopwith, while replying with personal insults instead of addressing the point. How's that for the pot and the kettle?
quote:And I think you very much for your brilliant clarification.
I clarified the point of something off-topic out to you.
quote:If that's what you hear, then you have a hearing problem.
From this, I hear you saying:
You cannot define yourself by your race and not be racsit. Ethnocentric ideas cause racism that is more harmful because it is more prevelant than extremism. It sounds to me like you are only damned if you do celebrate your diversity. If white people started celebrating their whiteness, they would be causing themselves harm.
quote:You are deliberately confusing ethnicity with race. Celebrating one's Irish roots does equate with celebrating one's whiteness. There exist black italians. Are they celebrating their whiteness when they celebrate their Italian heritage?
You don't think whites celebrate their 'whiteness?' Have you never been to a St. Paddy's Day parade? An Italian-American festival?
quote:Perhaps you were able to control your urge to dismiss people based on their race.
In addition, I've never been chased out of an African-American festival, the Latin-American celebrations I've attended
quote:We argue against the same thing. Affirmative Action (outwardly racist legislature) has not made America equal somehow.
In this case, what I have been arguing against is the notion that America is somehow equal because there is no outward racist legislature,
quote:Would you say that an individual is responsible for his or her own thoughts? How should we as a society go about fixing this problem?
but the people still by and large have social misconceptions and prejudices that have either never been addressed or have never been fully addressed.
quote:Has anyone in this thread claimed that? If not, why bring it up over and over?
and claim "everything is okay now"
quote:You become inflammatory on purpose. I see it now. You deliberately have forgotten that I said.
If that's what you hear, then you have a hearing problem
quote:My apparent hearing problem is due to your constant muffled mumblings.
However, this part I do not understand:
quote:Now we need to find out exactly where the racist line is between having your ethnic background define who you are and having your ethnic background contribute to your definition of who you are. This way, we can explain to someone, in detail, WHY he is racist, instead of just name calling.
One can have their ethnic background contribute to their definition of who they are and not be racist.
quote:By not subscribing to ethnocentrist ideals, like Robespierre does.
So far, we are dealing with the individual, and what he can do to affect change in his life and surroundings. How can an individual identify racism and act accordingly.
quote:No, they are celebrating their being Italian. It is entirely possibly to be of both white and black heritages, and not have them conflict with each other. I have family that does so quite well. What you are unwilling to accept it that Italian and Irish festivals are celebrations of ethnicity for primarily white people, and are trying to say that since there are no absolutes, that it is absolutely false. I am saying the majority is defining the whole in general, and you can't accept that.
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You don't think whites celebrate their 'whiteness?' Have you never been to a St. Paddy's Day parade? An Italian-American festival?
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You are deliberately confusing ethnicity with race. Celebrating one's Irish roots does equate with celebrating one's whiteness. There exist black italians. Are they celebrating their whiteness when they celebrate their Italian heritage?
quote:Anyone defining themselves solely by their own ethnic viewpoint is ethnocentric. Like yourself—you are unwilling to accept the viewpoints of anything other than a white male American perspective.
If these people were to define themselves solely by their ethnic background, they would be, to use your word of the day, ethno-centric.
quote:Or perhaps it is because I was celebrating their diversity right along with them, and in return was celebrated for acknowledging the positive aspects of diveristy. I suggest trying it someday, as it could prove quite educational for you.
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In addition, I've never been chased out of an African-American festival, the Latin-American celebrations I've attended
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Perhaps you were able to control your urge to dismiss people based on their race.
quote:Except you are trying to say that America was more equal before AA, and I am saying that it was not. Even the removal of AA will not solve things, so you should stop trying to argue against it with me. This has never been about Affirmative Action with me, and has been a major factor in just about all of your arguments. You're trying to blame a symptom for the cause.
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In this case, what I have been arguing against is the notion that America is somehow equal because there is no outward racist legislature,
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We argue against the same thing. Affirmative Action (outwardly racist legislature) has not made America equal somehow.
quote:Education. And it is an individual, communal, and societal issue. Your flaw is that you are expecting treating the whole of the problem on the individual level to provide a solution. People are social creatures by nature, and even the most basic social sciences corroberate this. Trying to treat a social prejudice with individual methods will not work (and has not worked).
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but the people still by and large have social misconceptions and prejudices that have either never been addressed or have never been fully addressed.
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Would you say that an individual is responsible for his or her own thoughts? How should we as a society go about fixing this problem?
quote:Once again, this is a case of "didn't say those words directly." You have claimed repeatedly that the nation is equal in opportunity and treatment, with the many cases I cited as either unrelated or unrepresentative of the nation. This is despite the vast number of cases along with the wide area of coverage. Like I said to Sopwith, you don't have to take my sources and links as the final say, but unless you look for whether or not those cases I have cited exist in larger numbers in many areas throughout the nation, then you are being intentionally ignorant or disregarding the cases as per your own ethnocentric view. You can discount what I have shown, but what you cannot do is show that these cases are not widely spread and numerous throughout the country. What you cannot disprove is that blacks get an average of 10% less than whites for the same jobs, with equal qualifications. What you cannot disprove are the misconceptions the general public has towards minorities in terms of presence, work ethic, and intelligence.
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and claim "everything is okay now"
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Has anyone in this thread claimed that? If not, why bring it up over and over?
quote:What is the agreed upon viewpoint of white male americans? Will you cease your racist dismissal of my posts?
you are unwilling to accept the viewpoints of anything other than a white male American perspective.
quote:If only we could all be as understanding and diverse as you. Unfortunately, there are not many African Americans where I live. There are many blacks however. Perhaps I could go to a black festival.
Or perhaps it is because I was celebrating their diversity right along with them, and in return was celebrated for acknowledging the positive aspects of diveristy. I suggest trying it someday, as it could prove quite educational for you.
quote:I have no idea what this means:
What you are unwilling to accept it that Italian and Irish festivals are celebrations of ethnicity for primarily white people, and are trying to say that since there are no absolutes, that it is absolutely false. I am saying the majority is defining the whole in general, and you can't accept that.
quote:You expect them to convince themselves of something that you want to convince them of.
Like I said to Sopwith, you don't have to take my sources and links as the final say, but unless you look for whether or not those cases I have cited exist in larger numbers in many areas throughout the nation, then you are being intentionally ignorant or disregarding the cases as per your own ethnocentric view.
quote:No, you are here to try and police my posts. I am asking you to stop it.
You expect them to convince themselves of something that you want to convince them of.
I am here because I belive that it IS possible to find a real answer to the question "what is racism." I am here because I believe it is possible to answer the question the thread asks.
quote:Its pretty amazing how closely the white american male perspective resembles your claims of MY perspective. I had no idea that ALL white american males thought that way. Perhaps you should inform us of what EVERY black american male thinks about this topic.
You can't even agree on what to define "racist" as, basically allocating it to anything that you disagree with.
The white American male perspective is as follows:
Equal opportunity is there, minorities are not always taking advantage of it.
Equal opportunity is determined by the supposition that laws are applied equally to everyone, thus making both opportunity and punishment equal.
Celebrations for African-Americans and Latin-Americans is racist by nature, but celebrations for Italian-, Irish-, Scottish-, German-, and other-Americans is not.
quote:Apparently I have company in there, ALL white american males.
placing you squarely within the ethnocentric realm.
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
quote:Okay, into the lion's den. First off, Leto, I fear few things and you didn't make the list. But hey, let me walk into the mine field you've laid, if nothing else than to amuse you.
Are you saying that you don't believe that the vast majority of racism in America is perpetrated by whites on non-whites?
Are you saying that you don't believe that America's social system is biased towards whites?
Are you seriously saying that racist ideas which permeate even to today are not the result of white racism?
quote:Gee, how utterly insulting of you to say that. While I'm sure you understand the term "African-American" applies to blacks in America—mostly because over 90% of them are descendants of African slaves and not immigrants from other continents or nations—you decide to insult blacks by saying they cannot be considered African-Americans. I also hope you realized that you have now stooped to insulting my family as well as me. You must be proud to harp on such things as how you feel everyone else in the world should qualify things according to your view. In case it doesn't occur to anyone else, this is an example of ethnocentrism.
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Or perhaps it is because I was celebrating their diversity right along with them, and in return was celebrated for acknowledging the positive aspects of diveristy. I suggest trying it someday, as it could prove quite educational for you.
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If only we could all be as understanding and diverse as you. Unfortunately, there are not many African Americans where I live. There are many blacks however. Perhaps I could go to a black festival.
quote:
Its pretty amazing how closely the white american male perspective resembles your claims of MY perspective. I had no idea that ALL white american males thought that way. Perhaps you should inform us of what EVERY black american male thinks about this topic.
quote:Personal attack? Excuse me, but I have never implied you have attacked me personally. You have not understood things that I have said, and you have tried to play "good cop" in a discussion while contributing little, but you haven't attacked me at all. I said from the first time I addressed you that I figured you were someone else, and your claims to the contrary now don't convince me. However, I don't care, and have still been replying to you. Mayhap you should not try to play some kind of victim in this case just because you want to feel attacked.
Leto, I have not been posting on hatrack before, and your amazingly sudden conclusions really kind of bother me. Everything becomes a personal attack.
quote:Sorry Leto, I must have missed it. I've just been skimming the last couple of pages. I'll have to look closer.
Jacare, did I adequately answer your question about the pork issue?
quote:Isn't this exactly what I was saying? It's like he has your lunch money and you can have it back if you'll just fight him... unless you're chicken. So sad; so very, very sad.
Why don't you answer my questions, Sopwith? What are you afraid of?
quote:You are the rhetorical genius here. Certainly you can understand that most American blacks are not from Africa, but from America. And just as you would not label whites born in the USA as European-Americans, or at least should not, so should the term African Americans be reserved for those who immigrate to the US from the continent of Africa.
You must be proud to harp on such things as how you feel everyone else in the world should qualify things according to your view.
quote:I insult no one. You have a very thin skin for this discussion, that is obvious. If it upsets you so much, I advise you not to keep coming back. I guess you knew I was going to say though, since I'm a typical non-diverse white guy ethno-centrist racist slave owner.
you decide to insult blacks by saying they cannot be considered African-Americans.
quote:This is low, even for you. I did not insult your damn family. As best I can see, they have not come into this thread and labeled me as a typical white guy.
I also hope you realized that you have now stooped to insulting my family as well as me.
quote:I can't imagine why anyone would think of that word, especially after you have been throwing it around with such abandon.
In case it doesn't occur to anyone else, this is an example of ethnocentrism.
quote:And since I am a white american ethnocentrist, this is what I think? Even if you had said that, it would be damning, but you actually said this:
The "white American male" perspective I put forth was in regard to ethnocentric ideals. I didn't say every white American male thinks this way, I said that it is the white American male ethnocentric view.
quote:You see how you have changed your story? You DID say "The White American Male perspective is as follows." You ARE a racist. You have labeled an entire group of people based on the color of their skin.
The white American male perspective is as follows:
quote:Oh, I must have forgotten all those times when I said there was NO RACISM. Man, what is your mental block on this?
You can also not justify why blacks get paid 10% less than whites doing the same jobs with the same qualifications
quote:Except that I gave many links and sources that support exactly what I said.
1. Well, considering that I can't seem to find any statistics that point to every condescending sneer, off-color joke, missed job opportunity, violent crime and judicial shenanigans, I couldn't prove that statement and neither can you.
quote:Did you read my posts? I did supply numbers and quantification. When jacare asked me about those three states voting on removing old racist statements and law, I even went out and got the actual issue that was on the ballot for each. You're saying that I haven't supplied anything when I most definitely have. If you don't believe my sources, search for them on your own.
How about working out the math for me Leto, and figure in percentage ratios based on racial population levels in the US for citizens, immigrants and illegal immigrants. Make a big old pie chart while you are at it.
quote:The problem is that white Americans make up more than 75% of the population, while non-whites make up less than 25%. If equally 10 or 20 percent of each were openly racist, the white American population of racists would still greatly outweigh the non-white population of racists. In other words, they are not equal. (warning: the example I gave is an oversimplification for brevity's sake. If you really want the answers they will not fall into your outstretched hands or come through an internet forum. I have shown the results of my proactive searching, why don't you show some results of your own?)
Strangely enough, this isn't something I've ever said isn't happening, but instead tried to point out that racism, in all of its forms, is found within just about any group at the level of individuals. I also spoke to the point that this is a situation that all parties must be involved in to solve. Perhaps you didn't read very closely, or you had already prejudiced yourself against such statements?
quote:Care to provide examples of whites not getting a "fair shake?" I am more than willing to bet you that the lack of fairness in the examples is the result of economic prejudice. Alternatively, the lack of fairness in non-white examples that I already linked with sources showed a large amount of racial bias and prejudice, up to and including unemployment numbers and discrimination in the workplace.
2. America' social system? Which facet do you wish to address or would you like to discuss it in whole? I see a huge number of folks having a very hard time with the American social system as it stands now, black, white, Hispanic, Asian and others. Perhaps you only view blacks as having a hard time anymore, but I argue that there are factors that can be easily waged on any group's behalf for saying that they are not getting a fair shake in today's world.
quote:Which only shows that legislation does not make racism go away. Since I never argued that legislation makes racism go away, there's really not much to say on the subject. My claim is that the majority of racism is based on white ethnocentrism, and I gave multiple examples from more than one direction to support it.
Legislatively, we've made it ILLEGAL to discriminate in the areas where we could legislate, but we cannot legislate the thought processes of individuals.
quote:How about in America?
3. Yes, I am saying pretty much that. Strangely enough, racism isn't a blacks and whites issue purely, and certainly not from the start.
quote:And yet you have yet to reply to any of my previous posts where you disagree, you only discount it because the big, bad Leto is the one saying it.
Now, read whatever you want to into this and make of it what you will. I mean, heck, I'd answered all of those questions before in earlier posts, but I guess I need to "prove myself" by answering directly to you, special delivery.
quote:may easily have stumbled on some sensitive material, I don't know who kevin is, but he doesn't help me define racism.
Leto, you have a track record of stating things, in PERSONAL ATTACK, that mean absolutely nothing because they are deliberately vague.
The following statement is false, worthless, and deliberately inflammatory.
quote:If only it were true.
I am not taking part in this thread any more.
quote:
Robespierre, if you continue trolling like that, don't expect me to answer you at all in this thread any more.
quote:
I am no longer going to continue going back and forth with you.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Are you implying that I belong in the same category as the other lame, wannabe-racist trolls that have graced this thread? Your accusation borders on racism, and I won't stand for it. What kind of lawyer are you anyway?
You'll fit right in.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
quote:Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about the guys who drive race cars! You mean racists are... geez! Total misunderstanding. Sorry everyone. Leto, you can come back, I thought you were disparaging NASCAR.
Those sound like the words of racists.
quote:Chroc, there is an aspect of you that is defined by your relations with other people. This is non-negligible part. And to the extent that being black or white determines the content and quality of those relations, your skin color does define that part of who you are.
It is a human behavior not unlike classism, or any other behavior resulting from social interaction of people. Racism is solved by whom it is experienced, the individual. I can fight racism as it comes up in my life, or I can actively pursue its demise. The question of the forum is flawed.
Being black(white) does *not* define who you are. This is a misconception that you can have.
Someone help me here.
![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
quote:Actually Leto did at least a couple of times.
In fact, while Leto is very harsh in his responses, he never sinks the childish name calling that someone like Sopwith delights in.
quote:I agree completely. This is extremely important.
Chroc, there is an aspect of you that is defined by your relations with other people. This is non-negligible part.
quote:So should skin color (as a determiner of the content and quality of your relations with other people) continue to define that part of who you are?
And to the extent that being black or white determines the content and quality of those relations, your skin color does define that part of who you are.
quote:
It shouldn't interfere how people act with other people, but it does anyway.
quote:These statements seem dangerous when mixed together. I don't care how long it's been around, if I'm racist, then I can find a new way of understanding people that is not racist.
The best we can do is do the best we can do.
quote:This is not always true. Society changes based on its surroundings and those people within it. It acts much like the process of evolution. Evolution does not always produce more complicated more "progressive" species. Societies are the same, they do not always evolve to a more "progressive" state.
society progresses over time.
quote:I get the impression that a lot of you out there think racism is something that only whites can be guilty of. I am not berating anyone, I just want to know if this is the perception.
I think that some whites are trying to preserve the status quo, I don't think every white person is.
quote:No one here was insulting Leto's intelligence. Why are you defending it?
Leto might be an aggressive and belligerent bugger from time to time, but he's also incredibly intelligent, his arguments are cogent and he knows what he's talking about. I can't say the same for his critics on this thread.
quote:Who's gonna lay claim something like that?
racism is something that only whites can be guilty of. I am not berating anyone, I just want to know if this is the perception.
quote:While this idea is very noble, I don't think it is realistic. Perhaps we can refuse to fit into people's stereotypes, thus not reinforcing their racism, but it is not an easy thing to change someone's perceptions.
and learn how to change the perceptions of individuals that we come in contact with.
quote:This is important. It fits into this in an important way.
"we are what we pretend successfully to be."
quote:Yes
you think it's unrealistic to be able to change people's perceptions,
quote:No, changing ones behavior is not analogous to changing someone's perception. You are who you pretend to be, meaning, people perceive the actions you make. However, the judgements made about those actions is the problem here.
but you think it's realistic to change the way they percieve us by changing our behavior?
quote:This is incorrect. People can instinctively read body language and tone of voice. Also:
No, changing ones behavior is not analogous to changing someone's perception.
quote:If people percieve you differently, then, over time, their perception of you will change.
"we are what we pretend successfully to be."
quote:You get lots of "impressions" and then proceed from those impressions as though people have made statements that match your assumptions. Since it's likely I'm included in your list, no, I don't think racism is a white-only crime. To be fair, at least this time you said that it was an impression instead of your nonstop accusations of endorsing Affirmative Action.
I get the impression that a lot of you out there think racism is something that only whites can be guilty of. I am not berating anyone, I just want to know if this is the perception.
quote:Since you are obviously not one those people who have stopped listening, perhaps you can explain Leto's point. Can you restate it at all? I doubt you can since there is no original point that he was arguing from. Leto was just here to attack people and stop the discussion of the important aspects of this problem.
No, lots of people know precisely what he's talking about. Your efforts to render his arguments ineffective were entirely ineffective. In fact, he's simply gotten tired of arguing it with you. The people who agreed with him are no longer listening to you.
quote:Find one.
You get lots of "impressions" and then proceed from those impressions as though people have made statements that match your assumptions.
quote:Is this your point? That racism is the current reason why some minority groups are less well off economically?
as foolish as believing that racism and prejudice in America are, in fact, minimal barriers to achievement in the lives of minorities in America and, in fact, if they don't achieve it's pretty much their own fault because they faced minimal barriers.
quote:I apologize for forcing you to respond to me. Please, don't let me waste any more of your time.
Another reason discussing this issue is now a waste of time, Robespierre.
quote:I have not forgotten your racism Lalo. You have had very little to add to this discussion. You are not in a position to judge me.
Heh. If Baldar had a love child with Anna Nicole Smith...
.
quote:You haven't forgotten my now what on the whosits? Am I a racist now? Heh. KKK 4 life!
I have not forgotten your racism Lalo. You have had very little to add to this discussion. You are not in a position to judge me.
quote:EG. Funny but sad. I guess it's human nature, objectivity should be sought after but of course it's never achieved.
I also think its funny that we all are willing to forgive the behaviour of those we agree with
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:I would say so. From this thread.
But, of course, I guess I'm just judging you by the color of your skin.
quote:Lalo, you are no more or less racist than Leto as far as I can see. Perhaps neither of you are racist, perhaps you are both just driven to anger and say things you don't mean. I don't know. But when you do this, you make intelligent conversation nearly impossible.
So, Rob, if I'm reading you correctly, you're buying into the right-wing paradigm of a world filled with lazy, drug-addicted morons on welfare who want nothing more than to suck all the money they can from you and belt out another couple babies. And, of course, steal your SUV while executing children. Right?
(Note: My mistake. It's a conservative position to execute minors -- it's a liberal position to execute fetii.)
Please, oh please, let me do a little speculation. You're a white male. Born upper middle class or richer. Probably well educated (at a private school?). From a between-the-coasts state, predominately white, and probably heavily conservative? When asked about racism, you rattle off the names of some of your black friends? You believe Middle Easterners (excepting Israelis, of course) tend to be blind religious fanatics who use the innocent United States as a scapegoat for their own problems and a target for their meaningless hatred? C'mon, tell me how much of this I got right.
Just to crown it, out of interest, do you listen to Rush Limbaugh on your way into work (your work being a white-collar job, probably management or administration)?
quote:With Leto gone, it seemed as though the conversation could possibly settle down into a serious discussion. Then Rakeesh, Lalo, and others move in to stir up discontent again.
Lalo's post in THIS thread, I thought was very well said and an excellent insight into his personal situation.
quote:But what I wrote was genuinely offensive and unnecessary. I'm not proud that I wrote it, nor am I sure why -- Chris and Dan were doing a fine job fielding the questions you asked over, and over, and over again.
By the way, sorry if I sound obnoxious. I'm pulling more than a little David Bowles right now. Please consider Chris to be the Rude Liberal Cabal's spokesperson rather than me.
quote:I don't live within 200 miles of a black person, to be honest. I've seen them on television before, though. They're the dark people that keep robbing Korean liquor stores, right? Goodness me, I don't know what I'd do if I saw one in my exclusive white neighborhood. I just don't want my kids exposed to that kind of element.
quote:
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When asked about racism, you rattle off the names of some of your black friends?
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You sicken me. Do you even live within 30 miles of a black person? I bet you are afraid to refer to blacks as "black" when you speak with them.
No of course not, your liberal guilt cripples you and you use the term "african americans."
Welcome to the discussion, you coward.
quote:Okay, I payed you back for that in the other thread. Bringing it up again was overkill.
Welcome to the discussion, you coward.
quote:Heh. I'd say it's significant underkill. My feelings aren't hurt, I promise you -- and regardless of my inner child, what you provided in no way proves my innate racism.
quote:
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Welcome to the discussion, you coward.
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Okay, I payed you back for that in the other thread. Bringing it up again was overkill.
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
quote:Equating Baptists and Republicans with racists is prejudice. I am aware of the fact that you were joking, but you deliberately remove Robespierre's perspective as an individual.
Though it's a shame. A few more accusations of being a racist, and I might've become a Baptist or Republican.
(Now you can use some material for backing up your claims of prejudice...)
quote:It is similar to this one:
Some of this—like your attitude of capitalism as a panacea—are just going to take time and experience, instead of hypothetical and book-work experience.
quote:Leto accuses Robespierre of being inexperienced and therefore invalid. He does not address an argument, or ask how it relates to racism.
Nice try to twist it. When you get out of college in four years, and finally enter a world that is not primarily viewed as an ideological...
quote:You apologize and then offend again...The psychology of racism is the psychology of hate. By finding out what Robespierre hates, you have also found what you hate. Hating hate is not self-justifying.
But what I wrote was genuinely offensive and unnecessary. I'm not proud that I wrote it, nor am I sure why -- Chris and Dan were doing a fine job fielding the questions you asked over, and over, and over again.
Oh, well. At least I get to read your response to it. Heh.
![[Monkeys]](graemlins/monkeys.gif)
quote:Inversely, Do you know Robspierre? It seems you may. I was feeling a bit hot under the collar at him because it seems he tries to go for the jugular in an argument/discussion, but only gets the ankles. That may be why people are jumping on him.
It's a little strange to me to think that you already know who Chris and Dan and Kevin and Patrick and Cedrios are. Racism aside, I think it's more likely that you were being reactionary towards Robespierre's opinions in defense of people you know.
quote:Inversely, Robespierre has refused to answer Leto's questions or back up his information and opinions.
Leto accuses Robespierre of being inexperienced and therefore invalid. He does not address an argument, or ask how it relates to racism.
quote:I what? How? I have to say, I don't think I've ever removed, deliberately or not, anyone's perspective as an individual.
quote:
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Though it's a shame. A few more accusations of being a racist, and I might've become a Baptist or Republican.
(Now you can use some material for backing up your claims of prejudice...)
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Equating Baptists and Republicans with racists is prejudice. I am aware of the fact that you were joking, but you deliberately remove Robespierre's perspective as an individual.
quote:More, he builds ludicrous straw-men of racism and claims that's what the other side (e.g. John (Leto), Jeff (Rakeesh)) are arguing.
Robespierre's style of argument is completely defensive and reactionary, but he does not try to escape the discussion when it tries to explore the basic elements of racism.
I think that there is an element of his frustration and anger that you dismiss based on your own prejudice.
quote:To use Frisco's question to Black Fox, have you been licking toads?
Lalo:
quote:
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But what I wrote was genuinely offensive and unnecessary. I'm not proud that I wrote it, nor am I sure why -- Chris and Dan were doing a fine job fielding the questions you asked over, and over, and over again.
Oh, well. At least I get to read your response to it. Heh.
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You apologize and then offend again...The psychology of racism is the psychology of hate. By finding out what Robespierre hates, you have also found what you hate. Hating hate is not self-justifying.
quote:How is it strange? I've been here since 2001. I respect the hell out of Chris and Dan, but that doesn't mean I parrot them because I believe they need defense. In fact, much of my respect for them is eyewitnessing them standing their own in many, many arguments. If I disagree with Rob, it's because I disagree with them -- not because my friends do. Heh. Christ.
It's a little strange to me to think that you already know who Chris and Dan and Kevin and Patrick and Cedrios are. Racism aside, I think it's more likely that you were being reactionary towards Robespierre's opinions in defense of people you know.
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) to the sweetest, most saintly Christ or Budda-like individual who would cut off his or her own hand before prejudging (much less hurt) anyone because of the color of their skin (all too rare in this vale of tears, shamefully), humans have incredibly varied ways of perceiving and dealing with fellow humans. 95% of us, including Yours Truely fall in between these extremes, so calling anyone a racist is almost invariably disingenuous AND HYPOCRITICAL. Unless you are one of those saintly folks I have heard rumours of, but have yet to actually meet. I see little evidence of saintliness on this thread from anyone, certainly none from me. Worry about the mote in your own eye before you start hurling shrill accusations of "RACIST!" at others. That is not to say that you cannot or should not call people on it if you think they have racist attitudes or prejudice. This is how consciousness is raised. When racism is unacceptable it will cease to be a problem. I doubt I or potential grandchildren will live to see that day. But we can all strive towards it. quote:What questions? I have been asking for some of the Leto supporters here to take up his mantle and restate what it was that I didn't answer, or even restate what his point was to begin with.
Inversely, Robespierre has refused to answer Leto's questions or back up his information and opinions.
quote:I can see how this perception has come about. However, I have been one of the few people on this thread actually contributing to on-topic discussion. I have put forth real ideas on solutions and on root causes. Perhaps many of you disagree with my ideas. But tell me why you disagree, don't just tell me I am troll, or a typical white guy, or whatever else.
Robespierre's style of argument is completely defensive and reactionary,
quote:Again, what are these people arguing? What are these questions I've been dodging, what straw-men have I created?
More, he builds ludicrous straw-men of racism and claims that's what the other side (e.g. John (Leto), Jeff (Rakeesh)) are arguing.
quote:I totally agree with this, and I believe it is the reason that common goals will be a large player in watching racism vanish. What happened to our nation's obsession with the space program? If you ask me, it should be the whole world's obsession.
Humans are pattern-seekers, we instinctively categorize, it is a huge part of our intelligence and why we have achieved some mastery over the world via mathematics and the sciences.
quote:This is a dangerous statement that should probably be rephrased or omitted. It is completely contrary to your previous argument. The problems caused by the relaxing of standards are not only caused by the black community, nor is the solution theirs alone.
However, the ball is now in the court of the black community.
quote:Now, this I agree with.
If the government teaches blacks to be sub-par by lowering the bar in schools and elsewhere, the problem is being purpetuated.
quote:Leto's point was that you were making statements without backing them up. When he asked you to back them up, you told him that he was not worthy for you to back up your information. And since he has more than likely given up in this thread, why don't we leave him out of it, because it is not part of the discussion or the topic.
What questions? I have been asking for some of the Leto supporters here to take up his mantle and restate what it was that I didn't answer, or even restate what his point was to begin with.
quote:Everyone in here has been discussing the topic.
However, I have been one of the few people on this thread actually contributing to on-topic discussion.
quote:This actually makes a great deal of sense as to why your arguments have been as such---like your ideas on capitalism helping the racism situation.
Firstly, my view of the current racial tensions in this country. Let me clarify that I am from St.Louis, MO which is a hot spot for racial anger.
quote:This is off topic, but I agree. I have an astronomy course right now, and am loving it.
What happened to our nation's obsession with the space program? If you ask me, it should be the whole world's obsession
quote:I have to agree with Choco, but I can see why you would feel this way if the situation is really that bad in St. Louis.
However, the ball is now in the court of the black community.
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quote:This is not a racial problem. This is a wealth problem. I had to deal with this same issue, and others, in a big way.
My parents cannot help her in paying for the expenses after the scholarship (ie, books, food, etc). So, she works. She does not do as well as the other students because she is working when she should be studying or working on projects. THe other students parents can afford to pay for everything.
quote:My statement of the problem as I see it, is not mutually exclusive with this. Teaching children this way is something that can and should happen no matter what the situation.
I stand by my idea, explained further by Morbo, that we need to teach our children to love and accept people, regardless of race or ethnic background.
quote:I agree with this. To the extent that other groups can help, by forcing the government to treat blacks like normal people, they should and are responsible to do so. If my statement about the ball being in the black community's court made people think this was not the case, then I mis-spoke. What I mean when I say that, is that no one can do the work of living and prospering for someone else. No matter what the hardships, the only way to be proud of what you have is to work for it, and to achieve and be the best without special help.
Everyone needs to work together to alleviate this problem.
quote:I see what you mean. And I have seen it, though it is not as blatantly prevalent as it may be in your area. In fact, I know it exists on a large level, but it is not a hot political topic right now.
What I mean when I say that, is that no one can do the work of living and prospering for someone else. No matter what the hardships, the only way to be proud of what you have is to work for it, and to achieve and be the best without special help.
quote:This is not true saxon. Fact: the earth is approx. 93,000,000 miles away from the sun.
Dismissing facts is contrary to logic. If your opponent presents facts to you, saying that facts don't matter makes you wrong.
quote:Well, yes, in Starla's sister's case. However, she was obviously using this as an example that demonstrates how difficult it is to compete in a system in which the playing ground is not even. In fact, she says that this is what she is using the example to demonstrate. Why dismiss it out of hand? That's just deliberately obtuse.
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My parents cannot help her in paying for the expenses after the scholarship (ie, books, food, etc). So, she works. She does not do as well as the other students because she is working when she should be studying or working on projects. THe other students parents can afford to pay for everything.
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This is not a racial problem. This is a wealth problem. I had to deal with this same issue, and others, in a big way.
quote:Firstly, it demonstrates only that succeeding is not easy. Secondly, I have not dismissed it. If anything, this strengthens my position that the individual is responsible for his or her own actions. That people of all colors run into barriers when trying to succeed. Even those who are rich and appear to have an easy life, have issues of there own to deal with. So for someone to judge based on skin color that a group of people has a harder life, is ignoring many issues. Everyone has hardships, and it is each person's individual struggle with those hardships that determines their success.
However, she was obviously using this as an example that demonstrates how difficult it is to compete in a system in which the playing ground is not even. In fact, she says that this is what she is using the example to demonstrate. Why dismiss it out of hand?
quote:While they do have a difficult position, to judge it and say that black people have a harder life than say, some poor white guy from a rural area is obsurd. Everyone has to deal with problems.
So you are saying that black people don't really start from an inherently more difficult position in a society that descriminates against them...
quote:Pretty much. Same as anyone who wants something they don't have. One must work in order to gain rewards. Some must work harder than others, that is how life works. There is no possible way to change this. Nor can I conceive of a better system than that which rewards hard work.
it wouldn't matter anyway because they should just work harder?
quote:Okay, what then are you saying? Please, provide some perspectives of your own, I would like to know where you are coming from on all this.
I'm not saying whether or not they have a harder time than anyone else - you're saying they don't.
quote:I know I have been over this many times in this thread, and more than once on the last page. Not immediately, but over time, yes. And I will stipulate that I advocate as unregulated as is reasonable. There must be some limits set by the government, although I prefer they be generous in their implement and rare in their occurance.
every man for himself capitalism that will save the day?
quote:While the poor may believe this, of course they are incorrect. Look at how many rich people there were in 1990, and how many there are now. There is a huge difference, these are people who believed that they could move up.
Poor people in capitalism believe they cannot obtain the level above them, so they do not try.
quote:Thank you, Saxon.
Let me see if I can sum up what I think John was saying:
quote:I agree.
I do think racism remains a problem in America
quote:I agree.
I do think that white on black racism is a problem
quote:I disagree. I think this form of racism is just as prevalent, although it manifests itself in different ways. Leto showed how white on black racism shows up. However, there is almost no attention payed to black on white racism because it is politically disasterous to even discuss the issue(more proof that minorities are not forgotten in politics).
(more so than black on white racism).
quote:Our entire economy is not built on racist inqualities. The slave economy of the south was to be sure, however the industrial economy of the north east was not built on racism. Certainly it existed, but to say the entire economy is BUILT on it is folly.
I also believe that a sytem built on racist inequalities is not inherently fair.
quote:I agree, and politely ask if you have any suggestions for changing our current system which you say is "based on racial inequalities".
against affirmative action legislation.
quote:Amongst those applicable. Certainly there are more whites than non-whites. However, a good many of these are not racist.
I don't see how non-white-on-white racism could possibly be as prevalent as white-on-non-white racism
quote:Agreed. I think this takes us back to the point that racism is an individual problem, and as such, may not be classified as any one race's fault, and that the solution does not lie with any one race. It lies with each individual person.
And a good many non-whites are not racist.
quote:I think we need to be clear about the difference between racism and the effects of racism such as poverty due to unequal opportunity.
Starla* said:
...capitalism will not help racism...
quote:You're right on, Dags.
I know you’ve elaborated well beyond this, but if I’ve misstated the core of your position, Robes, then I’m as lost as most of the others on this thread seem to be.
quote:To equate racism solely with slavery—which is exactly what you did in this quote—is the true folly, and a point I already made earlier, talking about the flaw in trying to assume that the end of slavery and the removal of Jim Crow laws somehow changed individuals' minds about the ethnicities that were already viewed as inferior. And until you can prove that minority-on-white racism is actually more prevalent nationwide than the opposite direction, I'm going to exercise my right to claim "bullshit" on that, and assure you that every statistic I have ever read states very clearly that it is definitely the other way around by a large margin.
Our entire economy is not built on racist inqualities. The slave economy of the south was to be sure, however the industrial economy of the north east was not built on racism. Certainly it existed, but to say the entire economy is BUILT on it is folly.
quote:That’s how I interpreted what you said. Again, I don’t think anyone’s saying capitalism will help get rid of racism. They’re saying it’s the best way to get rid of the economic inequities caused by racism.
Starla* said:
Any way, I just wanted to clear a point with Dagonee---that was a typo. I wanted to say that capitalism will not help get rid of racism.
quote:Some people who disagree with a large portion of your position have not insulted you nor reacted in a knee-jerk fashion.
Leto II said:
I’m saying it's pretty clear that anyone who disagrees with me is firmly of the position that I'm a prick, and wants nothing to do with conversation with me except to toss more insults or knee-jerk reactions.
quote:That’s a whole ‘nother thread.
Starla* said:
But, I still stand by my opinion when I say it will create classism instead.
quote:Good point.
I think the major problem with this thread has been its devolution into a choice between two views, leaving little room for discussion by those who disagree with both.
quote:I think the last few pages have been well stocked with other opinions from people like Morbo, Starla, et al. There are only as many voices as there are people willing to speak.
devolution into a choice between two views
quote:Amen.
These folks [migrant workers and Latinos] worked 10-12 hour days at minimum wage (that was a guarantee at least where I lived) six days a week. On Friday afternoons, you would see them lined up outside of the Western Union office, sending almost all of their hard-earned money home to Mexico (and other countries) to support families back home. I
quote:Or as many as are willing to wade through a bunch of back and forth accusations of racism, ad hominem attacks, and cross-thread insults, not to mention the “I think XXX was nastier than YYY” posts to find the substantive comments and people issuing commands about who is qualified to post in the thread.
Robespierre said:
There are only as many voices as there are people willing to speak.
quote:Wow, I'm very impressed by your knoledge of history. Ancient history. Ancient irrelevant history. Ancient ENTIRELY irrelevant history.
While there have been numerous times (mid-1900s in particular) where a strong black leader spoke out in strong support of civil rights, their recognition has almost always been posthumus, and they rarely held positions of actual power or political influence (with a few very debatable exceptions). All of these times, however, the economic and social situations of the day were dictated by people who were not directly representative of their cause.
quote:Your historical knoledge now dissapoints me. There's this thing that happened about that time, and it was called The Civil Rights Movement, it was lead largely by a guy named Martin Luther King, Jr., and it didn't just make leaps and bounds against racism, it actually legally clarified the constitutional rights of all people. In fact, it had nothing to do with "socio-economic status", it had more to with "I have a dream..." a speech by MLK. Perhaps you should read it sometime-really read it-, it's very inspiring.
Though the cause for civil rights has, over the course of a century and culminating in the 1950-60s, made leaps and bounds, it has yet to produce a socio-economic status quo that places people of all ethnic background on equal social and political footing.
quote:DO THEY REALLY??? I had no idea! Remarkable! And Extremely relevant to this topic I'm sure.
In addition, minorities (and, notably, all women) still average lower pay scales in equal jobs with equal experience and credentials to this day.
quote:Do They really? That's almost unbelievable... but I think I have a solution: Let's just kill all males, all white people, and all rich people! That'll solve the problem for sure. Or, if you want to go for a less violent solution, you could start up a national robbing society that targets only them.
a white male earns more on average than white females or minority males or females; national income levels are largely stratified, with whites taking up most of the upper, upper-middle, and middle class, and minorities more heavily concentrated on the lower-middle and lower classes;
quote:Prove to me that this is created by the other unconditionally or practically either one, and I might take back some of the nasty things I'm saying. What you appear to be suggesting is not that inequality perpetuates itself, which I would agree with to some degree, but that un-equal demographics perpetuate themselves, which I disagree with entirely, because even if this sometimes appears to be the case, it is post-hoc fallacy at work. In truth, all evidence suggests that the demographic is changing favorably, not the other way around.
What this creates is a modern social environment that—while not being overtly racist or encouraging of racism (quite the opposite in some cases)—is heavily biased towards males of white ethnicity (and, to a smaller degree, of protestant upbringing)
quote:OOOh yeah. All those unsalient cases. Namely, the ones that didn't happen but that you could claim did and quickly get good a perfectly good public servant fired or discredited- Very Quickly, because the system is biased against, not for, that public servant.
Indeed, only the most salient of cases ever get wide coverage
quote:That *is* a revolutionary idea!
My genius idea: How about reading what other people say instead of making up their arguments for them and then going off on how they're wrong with a bunch of largely either obvious or irrelevant facts?
. Hey, sarcsatic praise is better than none at all! rright?quote:Very wise and enlightened I'm sure. Perhaps even true to some extent, assuming you're dealing with people who haven't got but a very little in the way of diversity of background, and that they've pretty much been boxed up their whole lives, apart from other local backgrounds and environments.
In turn, those of different backgrounds and developmental environments will not have an understanding of the common perceptions and issues of other backgrounds and developmental environments.
quote:Rrrreally. Just, precisely, how is it judged, praytell? Do we go and look at white peoples' turds and black peoples' turds and say: 'hmm, that turd of that black guy sure is uglier than that white guy's turd'? Do we say: 'well, yes, the white guy and the black guy both make 20$/hr but the white guy buys pringles and the black guy corn chips and more people buy pringles than corn chips, so therefore that white guy's money is better than the black guy's, buck for buck'
However, the product of one environment is still the basis on which every other is still judged—in modern America, this is still that of the white, middle-class (or upper-middle-class, depending on the source) male of protestant heritage.
quote:Yes, that is rarely seriously addressed, and here is why: The fact of life is that the majority of human beings, of all ethnicities are not creative, and they do not seek with any great effort to better their positions in life. They tend to be sheep, and to accept what is given them, and this is neither right nor wrong, but at this point in the moral evolution of the human race, fact. Yet every once in a while there will be a fish who refuses to swim with the stream. Some of these will continue to swim against it no matter what, no matter the cost. Many will swim against it for a time, and if encouraged, if a way opens for them, continue. So in our legal and eduactional system we need to keep a door open for these people, and it's actucally being done pretty darned well in this country right now.
The issue that is rarely seriously addressed is that there is a genuine difference in perspective on opportunity, challenge, and adversity depending on the person's ethnicity.
quote:Bad, Bad, Leto. Now you're playing cat and mouse. First you're talkiing about what whites should do/think about black individuality and then about what blacks should do/think about black indivduality as if they were the same thing. It ain't necc-sess-sarily so. That I have Modawk heritage and have a relative who was a great warrior is and therefore should be signifigant to me, but it should not neccessarily be signifigant to you.
A counterproductive method of trying to handle this unique and nervous situation is to take a stance of "colorblindness." This is, by nature, a passive technique, and is most often espoused by whites than any other group. The reason it is counterproductive is that it requires minorities to disengage themselves from a factor that gives them part of their definition of individuality.
quote:Actually, when it's not, if it's not, among black or whites, it's because they were born a. often rich b. often members of a cultural majority and c. Exclusively with their heads up their arses and without respect for their heritage.
This is not generally understood by whites, mostly because so many American caucasians have multi-national lineages, with roots in many nationalities.
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One more little detail: I broke rule#2 quote:The irony of this is that I find you last three posts to be incomprehensible.
Jeez man, make clear what you mean or for G-d's sake don't say it!
quote:First of all, Leto's post to which you responded was delivered in an eminently calm and reasonable tone. So you had no reason to jump on him. But even if he had been totally inflammatory, two wrongs don't make a right.
Hem, well yes, sorry about that, old chap, yet I can't help but feel that with people like Leto around, it's(and Pardon the metaphore) kill or be killed.
quote:"These people" or "that person"? If "these people," please explain "which people".
If this is how these people are like in the real world
quote:By Walter Williams from here.
What I celebrate as a source of pride and self-esteem is the fact that I have brown eyes. You say, "Williams, that goes to prove what we've been saying all along. You're a lunatic! Is having brown eyes some kind of accomplishment?" Such a response is proof positive that you've missed out on an important part of today's college education.
Diversity worship and multiculturalism are currency and cause for celebration at just about any college. If one is black, brown, yellow or white, the prevailing thought is that he should take pride and celebrate that fact even though, just as in the case of my eye color, he had nothing to do with it. The multiculturist and diversity crowd see race as an achievement. In my book race might be an achievement, worthy of considerable celebration, only if a person was born white and though his effort and diligence became black.
For the multiculturist/diversity crowd, culture, ideas, customs, arts and skills are a matter of racial membership where one has no more control over his culture than his race. That's a racist idea but it's politically correct racism. It says that one's convictions, character and values are not determined by personal judgement and choices but genetically determined. In other words, as yesteryear's racists held: race determines identity.
The multiculturists are right in saying that in a just society people of all races and cultures should be equal in the eyes of the law. But their argument borders on idiocy when they argue that one culture cannot be judged superior to another and to do so is eurocentrism. For them different cultural values are morally equivalent. That's unbridled nonsense. Ask your multiculturalist friends: Is forcible female genital mutilation, as practiced in nearly 30 sub-Saharan Africa and Middle East countries, a morally equivalent cultural value? Slavery is practiced in Northern Sudan; is it morally equivalent? In most of the Middle East, there are numerous limits placed on women such as prohibitions on driving, employment and education. Under Islamic law, in some countries, women adulterers face death by stoning and thieves face the punishment of having their hand severed. Are these cultural values morally equivalent, superior or inferior to ours?
Western values are superior to all others. Why? The indispensable achievement of the West was the concept of individual rights. It's the idea that individuals have certain inalienable rights and individuals do not exist to serve government but governments exist to protect these inalienable rights. It took until the 17th century for that idea to arrive on the scene and mostly through the works of English philosophers such as John Locke and David Hume.
While western values are superior to all others, one need not be a westerner to hold Western values. A person can be Chinese, Japanese, Jewish, African or Arab and hold Western values. It's no accident that western values of reason and individual rights have produced unprecedented health, life expectancy, wealth and comfort for the ordinary person. There's an indisputable positive relationship between liberty and standards of living.
Western values are by no means secure. They're under ruthless attack by the academic elite on college campuses across America. These people want to replace personal liberty with government control; they want to replace equality with entitlement; they want to halt progress in the name of protecting the environment. As such they pose a much greater threat to our way of life than any terrorist or rogue nation. Multiculturalism and diversity are a cancer on our society and ironically, with our tax dollars and charitable donations, we're feeding it.
quote:Race is obviously not an accomplishment. It is, however, something that contributes to identity, and there's no reason not to celebrate identity.
Diversity worship and multiculturalism are currency and cause for celebration at just about any college. If one is black, brown, yellow or white, the prevailing thought is that he should take pride and celebrate that fact even though, just as in the case of my eye color, he had nothing to do with it. The multiculturist and diversity crowd see race as an achievement. In my book race might be an achievement, worthy of considerable celebration, only if a person was born white and though his effort and diligence became black.
quote:Again, I disagree vehemently with anyone who claims that there is no correlation between race and culture. One's convictions, character and values are probably not influenced heavily by genetic factors (the nature vs. nurture argument in human development is still far from resolved, though) but they are very highly dependent on one's experiences and what they are taught by their family and friends. Since it's reasonable to say that one's parents contribute to his race, and it's reasonable to say that one's parents contribute to his values, convictions and character, it's reasonable to say that there is a correlation between race and values, convictions and character. Not necessarily a causal relationship, but a correlation nonetheless. It's true that you have a certain amount of control over your culture, but if you realize the amount of influence that your parents' culture has on you, especially in early childhood, you must realize that there's much less choice than this man seems to believe.
For the multiculturist/diversity crowd, culture, ideas, customs, arts and skills are a matter of racial membership where one has no more control over his culture than his race. That's a racist idea but it's politically correct racism. It says that one's convictions, character and values are not determined by personal judgement and choices but genetically determined. In other words, as yesteryear's racists held: race determines identity.
quote:However, you still require the belief that one's parents' values and character represent their own race. This is the issue at hand. If one's parents are black, you require that they act "black" and have "black character." This is the flaw, assigning everyone of a certain race with certain characteristics. So even though one's values and character may be stongly influenced by one's parents, this does not imply that the race of their parents is part of that. Otherwise you must equate values and character with a certain race.
they are very highly dependent on one's experiences and what they are taught by their family and friends. Since it's reasonable to say that one's parents contribute to his race, and it's reasonable to say that one's parents contribute to his values, convictions and character, it's reasonable to say that there is a correlation between race and values, convictions and character.
quote:Please do. Everyone seems to think this thread is has a two view maximum. Throw yours in.
people are still interested I'll write more.