quote:

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I see we have an heir to the throne!

I'm sure the word you were looking for was symbolism.

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This is actually a quote from Boondock saints, isn't it?
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
If you want to know what course of action to take, I'd suggest continuing to go, "Wow, no way!" "Really? That's incredible!" etc., etc., and continuing to give her all the attention and ego-feeding she wants.

Also look into purchasing some nice black eyeliner and lipstick, as well as a few well-placed facial and nipple piercings.


 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Jon Boy, were you around when Yank was here? I'm thinking y'all would be friends.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Musta been before my time. Who was he?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
The Original Grammar Nazi. A total sweetie, and my first Hatrack brother. He's on a mission in Florida.

[ November 18, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Sounds like my kind of guy.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Yeah, y'all get along wonderfully. I don't know how much time he has left (less than a year?) (*jaded, neglectful correspondent*), but I hope he comes back to Hatrack when he returns.
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Shes not crazy alright, so stop digging into her. Otherwise your justba bunch of horses a$$es.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
Maybe not crazy in the sense you are thinking of, but she obviously is not falling into the traditional category of normal.

How's that for a tactful way of saying, yes, she is indeed at least a little crazy?

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
I've known her foever, she is in no way, disturbed, out of wack, crazy, a luney bin, anything.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Of course she's not a looney bin. The looney bin is the place where they send the looneys.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
You don't have to walk around saying you are a hedgehog to be a little out of whack.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Well, if you're not willing to permit the possibility that she's crazy, the two other possibilities open to you are:

1) She's lying to you.
2) A mystical white tiger that no one else can see is trying to tell her something.

Personally, I think option #1 is more likely.

[ November 18, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
By the way, what exactly were you expecting to get as a response from this thread?

Are we supposed to think she is getting a message from somewhere?

Are we supposed to feel bad for her?

Are we supposed to hail her as our new queen and fall down to worship?

Seriously, unless you think that dreams are a way of spirit beings talking to you and telling you what to do, I don't see how you could take any of this seriously.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
RTF - she claiming special mystic attention. Now, either the runes from various ancient cultures and real and mean something, and she really is marked in some special way and the dreams are to prepare her for her destiny, or else she's a normal human and is either dreaming these up or else finding a fabulous way to get attention from a lonely teenage boy.

She's either nuts or she's making up stories to grab your attention. Either way, run for the hills. My brother was involved with a similar girl, and it was grevious, grevious, law-entanglingly bad. She needs help, but you are not qualified to give it.

Look at it this way: Even if she is being sent special dreams, you are still not qualified to give her help with them.

[ November 18, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
Look, Rhaegar, she isn't crazy in the old lady with a million cats kinda way, or the leprechaun on my shoulder told me to burn it kinda way.
The thing is, when you're younger you really want to feel special, to feel different from everybody else. Some people say they can see or feel energy, others talk to angels (in a more literal sense of the word than most religions would imply). They aren't crazy and, on some level, they probably think they do. If you tell yourself something over and over and over again you start to believe it's true.

In short, listen to Ayelar. Continue to be interested and tell her she's special and feed her ego. But realize that it's not happening anywhere but in her words and maybe a little bit in her head.

Edit to add: Contrary to Kat's advice I wouldn't necessarily run for the hills. I went out with someone who sounds similar to this girl for many years. No close brushes with the law, no hurt feelings, we're still friends and I wouldn't trade the years we were together for the world. Ultimately in comes down to how you feel about her character. If she's always been great to you then hey, stay friends. If she's using the tiger as an excuse to say or do things, maybe start thinking about spending less time with her.
(I know, you're only friends, you're not dating, but the advice stands for any kind of relationship between two people).

[ November 18, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
 

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Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
 
Has it ever shown her things she hadn't already heard of or known about? You mention the last stand of the Black night, and other past violence, were they all things she aleady knew about, or were any of the events and places and things she wouldn't recognize and on her own, and already know what they would be like?

I have no idea what the visions of the tiger could mean in general, and I'm not sure what it would mean if there were things she wouldn't know already, but for some reason it seems worth asking.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*considers* BtL could be right. It depends on what the stories are about. If it stays with dream tigers, you're probably fine. If you start hearing weird stuff about anything to do with (1) crime, (2) abuse, or (3) sex, take off as fast as you can.

Added: You're a good guy, BobtheLawyer. No wonder you and twinky are such good friends.

[ November 18, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
 
It sounds really cool. I've had a lot of recurring dreams and predictions. Some of them are scary, but lots of them are comforting to have the same dreams over and over.
 

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Posted by Der Grammatikfuehrer (Member # 5015) on :
 
Dude, what's it gonna take to get you to change "symbolance" to "symbolism"? Don't make me haul you away to a "reeducation" camp.
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
I like symbolance. It brings both "semblance" and "symbolism" to mind, and yet means something else.

I don't know what to say about your friend's visions. I think all we can say from this thread is that it isn't that great of an idea to share mystical experiences with a bunch of strangers and ask them what they think. If it has meaning, it's probably only to your friend herself.

One way that IS socially acceptable to share dreams and visions is the way Uncle Orson does it, by making them part of a fictional account. Chaim Potok's characters also experience things like that. I'm thinking about the vision of the mother dog and puppies on the roof that Gershon had in The Book of Lights.

I am not inclined to hoot people down who report mystical experiences, but neither am I able to learn much from what they tell, in general. It's hard enough to know what sense to make of one's own.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
Not to make with the non sequitur, but when I read the first line of the opening post:

quote:

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I have a friend who since the age of 3 has been seeing a white tiger

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quote:

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Yes. He means her "visions" are the kind of visions you'd expect from somebody in a fantasy novel who's secretly the last heir to the throne and destined to kill the Dark Lord.

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quote:

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The first thing I thought was, is your friend Siegfried or Roy?

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See, the first thing I thought was, "Isn't three a little young to start dating?"
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
I'm going to have nightmares tonight about staring white tigers with girly voices.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Who doesn't?
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
Hatrackers, you are being rude! Just because someone has a mystical experience outside of YOUR preferred mode of revelation (i.e. Jesus and God or otherwise) is no reason to insult them.

I would be asking the friend what the tiger means to her. It's obviously a very powerful symbol for her. Does she have Nordic/Celtic ancestry? How do these visions make her feel? I'd have to talk to her myself to help interpret the symbols - I have been known to help friends interpret dreams in quasi Jungian fashion, and it was weird. I felt like the Biblical Joseph. But it's always linked to a person's own personal symbolism.

And, oh Hatrack Skeptics, there is more out there in the world than madness or drug-induced hallucination. Why must these two scenarios be immediately assumed when someone experiences a fantastical scenario? Why COULDN'T Lucy be telling the truth about her wardrobe?

Obviously, this girl has had a powerful experience that was meaningful to her. Must it necessarily be a bad thing?
 

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Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
 
Ouch. *is abruptly skewered by Jenny before he can post*

Sorry for what I was going to say, Jenny. None of this "seeing visions" stuff makes any sense to me, though I might have expected more Hatrackers to agree with you.

I admit that the whole business sounds hokey to me, but on the other hand, when I was at Harding I met a girl from Georgia who was afraid the devil was sending her visions of the future. Because the things she said she had seen were fairly straightforward, and maybe because I wish I could believe in a lot of things I don't, I was able to treat her without condescension and help her out a bit. Still...white tigers and runes? The skeptic in me is laughing his rear off.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I'm glad for ana kata and Jenny Gardener's balance.

My own take is that visions of true mystical importance are like haute couture: there's definitely some real items out there, although getting ahold of them is fantabulously expensive (in the case of visions, being "called to" generally means you're in for a rough ride), and they are generally so non-mainstream as to be on the far side of eccentric-looking.

However, because haute couture is coveted, the market is relatively flooded with wannabes, whether the person buying them is aware they are rip-offs or not. Often, they do know, and it's the appearance of having the real article (rather than the real article itself) which drives them. After all, if one wears haute couture, one must be important, including (necessarily) to oneself. Knock-offs are a quick way to gain status.

Instant cool powder. Just add water and stir.

However, it's often pretty impossible to tell the real from the fake, especially if you're not the one to see the seam lines. So ana kata's take makes sense to me -- probably only the person living it will get much meaning out of it, and even then it's tricksy.

(I do, however, have much gratitude for the time I spent with JG, and if anyone can interpret for others, my vote would be it's she.)

[ November 19, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"And, oh Hatrack Skeptics, there is more out there in the world than madness or drug-induced hallucination."

So YOU say.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
I much prefer my skepticism in assuming she is crazy or lying than to be tolerant enough to give credence to visions of white tigers with celtic runes carved over their faces in fields of blood. Here's what I'm saying: she can be having this dream, she's the only one who knows for sure on that. But having the dream and having it mean something are completely different things. So even if every day and every night she sees white tigers that sound like James Earl Jones talking about how great it would be if parrots could rule the world, it doesn't mean one day they will.

Also, I hate it when I have to agree with Tom, and I have done it like 3 times in the last couple days.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Look, I consider myself a pretty good study when it comes to myths, and I'm pulling a blank with your friend's dreams.

Frankly put, there are no white tigers in Celtic myth. There are no tigers of any type in Celtic myth. That's because there are no tigers in Celtic history. (I emphasize 'Celtic' here, because that's the tenor you and your friend are giving these dreams.)

Ditto for Nordic mythology.

An ocean of blood? Well, that ties into several world mythologies. . . but nothing west of the Seine, as far as I know.

quote:

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she saw the last stand of the black knight and his death in the chamber, tasted, smelled the blood etc. when she was at his tomb.

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When you say she saw the Black Knight, what Black Knight are you referring to? You realize that in most world mythology, Black-creature-X is not considered a being of good moral standing, right?

I'm afraid that as far as mytholgy goes, dreams of predators, death, lakes of blood, swords, battles, etc., are nothing to be very 'comforted' about.

So she should look elsewhere for interpretation.

That said-- if I saw a white tiger strolling around, I definitely wouldn't think it normal.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 


I'm being rude? He asked for ideas, I stated mine. In the world in which I so comfortably live there is no room for these visions to be real, hence I tossed out what I thought.
Neither of which were madness or drug-induced hallucination. More girl wants to be special and different and so creates detailed imaginary vision. Wants and wishes for imagination to be true enough that, on some level for her, it does. Which has nothing to do with madness, people do this all their lives about this that and the other thing. There's nothing upsetting and worrisome about it so long as it doesn’t negatively impact their lives.

Is there no room on this board for people who don't think everyone is right and the world exists on a fluffy cloud where we all believe everything and never disagree? I suppose you could argue that I was condescending, although I don't know how not to be while saying the things I felt needed to be said.

Anyway, for those chomping at the bit to reply to us barbaric and rude posters I just want to point out that there's a big tall horse to your left. I suggest you climb up on it while you tell us the error of our ways.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*pat pat* Bob, it's okay. You were tremendously sensitive and nice. He did ask for opinions. You can't ask for opinions and then be upset when you are given opinions.
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
Hehe, I don't want to get all defensive or anything, but Rhaegar's post really did creep me out. I had to turn the light on and everything.
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
Rhaergar posted to an environment where almost everybody's points of view are skewed by western religion or/and thinking pattern:

See...like "The bible does not say so. My senses do not show me. The science does not show me. Sorry. You're wrong"

I'm not criticizing any of you. Heck! I think this way! Can't run from triangle "Bible / Senses / Science". Unfortunatelly, Rhaergar, I guess we (including you) are way out of our league on this one.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Unless she is in fact making it up or mentally ill, in which case we're pretty much in our league.
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
Tom...we can't examine her, we can't define what (if anything) is wrong with her, nor if what she sees have some meaning. We are out of our league.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Then why ask?
 

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Posted by Koga (Member # 5646) on :
 

quote:

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a white tiger, It has strange designs on its face, looking like a combination of elvish designs and nordic designs. On its back it has designs in the shape of a wolf.

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What color are the designs and mark on the tiger?

And wouldn't they be difficult to see because of the tiger's own stripes?

some brief info about white tigers
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
Katharina: That's what I'm saying. Unfortunatelly, most of us are not in a position to help him or her friend.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That's assuming that what people, who have had experience with this phenomenon, are saying is not true.

If she is having a haute coutre experience, then we are precisely the league to ask.

Ayelar and Bob were very kind, and if RtF followed their advice, the girl would be taken care no where the dreams come from.

[ November 19, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
While I understand where TomD is coming from and am a skeptic. I think it is very possible the dreams are real. I dream about stuff that I read in books all the time. I had a vivid nightmare about Goliath for years after my dad read me the discription of the "sons of Gath" in the Bible with the nine fingers on each hand etc. I have some dreams that are very beautiful but to describe them leaves most people scratching their heads. Though, Bob Scopatz did an interesting interpretation in his "big book of dreams thread" In fact, where is Bob on this thread?!

I have others that involve people (particularly family members) with me saying things to them that I would never say in real life. This is one of my ways of "venting" some of the stress I feel via my subconscious.

Since these dreams started when she was so young I can't help but wondering if they were influenced by something she saw on TV that made a vivid impression at the time. My brother had disturbing dreams about clowns as a three year old after he watched Dumbo. Never had a problem with clowns before that.

Maybe she did see a Sigfried and Roy special when was that age. Combine that with a couple of bloody movies like Brave heart or a couple of editions of Xena Warrior Princess or Hercules, tack in a bit of your brain's own originality and you've got the makings of an odd vivid dream.

If it was odd and vivid enough to remember the likelihood of having it again increases (at least in my own experience.) And if she started dwelling on it in her thoughts that would increase the repeatability even more.

I think now because you are so far away from the time of the occurence of the original dream, it would be hard to get a "direct" interpretiation. (Though I'm not a Jungian analyst by any means.) The things that would give her the most clues about her life and thought processes today are more how she feels in the dream, if she feels the same way, or if or how the dream is subtly changing.

In other words I guess I feel that it probably isn't some grand "cosmic guide" telling her anything. But if the dreams mean anything at all it is her subconscious mind trying to communicate with her consicous mind about something important for her.

Make any sense?

AJ
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
When I posted about a possibly pregnant girl, people cracked jokes about the possibility she was faking it to get out of work. Rhaegar didn't claim to be describing his own dream, he was describing somebody else's. As such, I don't see anything truly rude about responding with humor. In addition, I thought many of the replies, including (but not limited to) ak's, BtL's, Poly's, and Kat's, were really quite thoughtful and took the post seriously.

Ed_Sauron, you have a point, insofar as many of us are unprepared to deal with the possibility that these dreams are manifestation of some true spiritual phenomenon, but I wouldn't go so far as to agree with your statement that there is nothing anybody here can say that could be helpful to Rhaegar or this girl. The posts I referred to are examples to the contrary. They sugests hypotheses, and base their advice on the possibility that one of these hypotheses is true.

-o-

Regarding the humor . . . appropriate or otherwise, many of the posts here made me laugh out loud. (And not having seen Boondock Saints, my interpretation of Frisco's line coincided with Tom's, and I thought it was a brilliant line. It's a shame you had to ruin it by admitting it was a quote! )


 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I think it is very possible the dreams are real."

I'm willing to entertain that possibility, as well, Anna. The difference is that she also claims to see these things, according to Rhaegar, while she's AWAKE.

If she's telling the truth, then, and if mystic tigers are NOT appearing to her, she's mentally ill.
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
Things like this don't happen in our culture but they are rather ordinary quotidian facets of life in many other cultures in the world.

Perception is an active event, in which the individual is involved. What you perceive very much depends on who you are and what your brain is trained to see, quite as much as it does what is actually there to be seen.

Here in the west, when sane people have such experiences, they usually keep them private, because there is no category of our understanding in which they easily fall. Are you insane? No. Okay, then did you take hallucinatory drugs? No. Okay then you must be insane. No.

The derision shown is not rudeness so much as it is the standard reaction of any system of perception/understanding to something outside its ken. I expect Celts or whoever would similarly dismiss perceptions which didn't fit inside their own systems.

I don't dismiss them mainly because I am a scientist, and we are always alert for understanding outside the boundaries of the currently known, and I have been alerted to the possibility of interesting observations to be made in this manner.

[ November 19, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
The tiger has no stripes to answer oyur question. And what I was really hoping to get out of this thread is whether or not theire are any myths in any culture alluding to a white tiger. Pesonally I believe her, and in this kind of thing.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

quote:

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Things like this don't happen in our culture but they are rather ordinary quotidian facets of life in many other cultures in the world.

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They happen in our culture more often than you’d think. It’s actually fairly common, particularly after a close family member dies, for people to have a waking “vision.” I’ve spent a fair amount of pastoral care time assuring people that they’re not crazy, and that what they’ve experienced is perfectly normal.

If the tiger isn’t telling her to do anything, she’s not disturbed by it, and if the experience doesn’t interfere with her life in any way (ie: she’s not getting distracted while driving, doesn’t have a problem distinguishing between what is physically present in the room and what is in her vision, etc) then it’s probably nothing to worry about. If it does start to interfere, then it’s time to see a spiritual director and/or a psychologist. Preferably both.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
So, um, Anne Kate, are you saying that it's more likely Harvey the Invisible White Tiger is following this girl around than either of the other two options?
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Does the name Rhys ring any bells?
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Rhys Ifans? He's one of my favorite comic actors. Great in both "The Replacements" and "Notting Hill" at being the supporting actor that makes the whole thing click together. In fact because he's a such crazy Welshman I've been considering using his name as a basis for naming a dog in my first Cardigan Welsh Corgi litter.

AJ

[ November 19, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
There is also a Rhys somebody from England who is the Minnisota Golden Gophers Field goal kicker...

AJ
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Mythically wise. Duh!
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Well you can narrow your search down to Welsh mythology because it is a welsh name. I was assuming you already googled it.

AJ
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
I have, I was just checking if any one had heard of it.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Tigers in Mythology

There are your Mythical Tigers.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
I was edgy earlier this morning. Sorry if I came across bossy. You guys, for the most part, are all fine with me. I guess I'm just tired of seeing the world through the cynical/realist perspective (which my husband has in spades). In particular, I have always held the deepest respect for Tom D. and Bob the Lawyer. Usually I am right on board with you guys. It's just that every once in a while, I must indulge in metaphor and poetry. And I get frustrated by the prosaic people who treat me as if I'm mad when I do. Hence my championship of a girl who sees mystical tigers.

At any rate, tiger seems a powerful word to choose when describing a beast. Here's some potential interpretations of these symbols that come to MY mind: White can be death or truth or purity, according to your culture. Blood and sand - life and starkness. Spent life? Violence - conflict either in the soul or emotions. Black Knight reaching his end - destruction of old ways of thought, loss of a loved one, vanquishing negative energy. Nordic/elvish patterns - a longing for beauty, connecting with ancestry, fascination with a particular mythology. Tiger/Predatory Cat - beauty mixed with ferocity and danger.

It does seem rather like an alter ego created for one's own soul-protection. I, too, wonder about such an early appearance in childhood. What is this tiger and its accompanying symbols protecting her from? Since your friend is using the language of symbols and myth, it may be that she is doing her soulwork in this way. I think she should be encouraged to stay with the visions, record them, and think about them. When do they occur? How does she feel before, during, and after? Is there anything uncomfortable about them? Can she interact with the characters of her visions? If so, has she worked to understand them?

I, personally, have used the myth of Persephone to come to a greater personal peace with myself and various issues in my life. Mythology can be a very important psychological tool. Sometimes a body can better deal with one's issues by looking at them as part of a bigger story, and teasing out the themes in one's life. Probably depends upon the way you are wired - somehow I don't think mythological therapy would work for someone like Tom D.

(By the way, I'm enjoying my ride on my high horse. Thanks for providing him for me. He's quite beautiful, with a bay coat and dark mane. He whickers, shakes his head, and laughs a horsey laugh at me. He thinks I'm hilarious and quite out of my league.)
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
On a quick google:

from here

quote:

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RHYS m Welsh
Pronounced: HREES (Welsh), REES (English)
Means "enthusiasm" in Welsh. Several Welsh rulers have borne this name.

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quote:

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Exactly similar to this medieval legend in spirit, although differing widely in detail, is the modern story of Shuï Rhys, told to me by a peasant in Cardiganshire. Shuï was a beautiful girl of seventeen, tall and fair, with a skin like ivory, hair black and curling, and eyes of dark velvet. She was but a poor farmer's daughter, notwithstanding her beauty, and among her duties was that of driving up the cows for the milking. Over this work she used to loiter sadly, to pick flowers by the way, or chase the butterflies, or amuse herself in any agreeable manner that fortune offered. For her loitering she was often chided; indeed, people said Shuï's mother was far too sharp with the girl, and that it was for no good the mother had so bitter a tongue. After all the girl meant no harm, they said. But when one night Shuï never came home till bed-time, leaving the cows to care for themselves, dame Rhys took the girl to task as she never had done before.

' Ysgwaetheroedd, mami,' said Shuï, ' I couldn't help it it was the Tylwyth Teg.' The dame was aghast at this, but she could not answer it--for well she knew the Tylwyth Teg were often seen in the woods of Cardigan. Shuï was at first shy about talking of the fairies, but finally confessed they were little men in green coats, who danced around her and made music on their tiny harps; and they talked to her in language too beautiful to be repeated;

indeed she couldn't understand the words, though she knew well enough what the fairies meant. Many a time after that Shuï was late; but now nobody chided her, for fear of offending the fairies. At last one night Shuï did not come home at all. In alarm the woods were searched; there was no sign of her; and never was she seen in Cardigan again. Her mother watched in the fields on the Teir-nos Ysprydion or three nights of the year when goblins are sure to be abroad; but Shuï never returned. Once indeed there came back to the neighbourhood a wild rumour that Shuï Rhys had been seen in a great city in a foreign land-Paris, perhaps, or London, who knows? but this tale was in no way injurious to the sad belief that the fairies had carried her off; they might take her to those well-known centres of idle and sinful pleasure, as well as to any other place.

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quote:

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Nu Kwa, a mythical empress of China, was reputed to have become a goddess after she had passed to the celestial regions...When the demons of water and fire, aided by rebel generals of her empire, set out to destroy the world, Nu Kwa waged war against them. Her campaign was successful, but not until a gigantic warrior had partly destroyed the heavens by upsetting one of its pillars and the flood had covered a great portion of the earth. The empress stemmed the rising waters by means of charred reeds, and afterwards rebuilt the broken pillar...Thereafter she created the guardians of the four quarters, placing the Black Tortoise in the north, and giving it control over winter; the Blue Dragon in the east, who was given control over spring; the White Tiger in the west, who was given control over autumn; and the Red Bird in the south, who was given control over summer, with the Gold Dragon, whose special duty was to guard the sun, the moon being protected by the White Deity of the west. The broken pillar of heaven was built up with stones coloured like the five gods

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The Four Directions have been represented at least since the second century BC, by four celestial animals, the Dragon for the East, the Bird for the South, the Tiger for the West, and the Tortoise for the North. Each animal has its own colour: the Dragon is the Green of Spring, the Bird the red of Fire, the Tiger of Autumn the glittering white of metal (of ploughshares or swords), and the Tortoise Black, for night, or water. The four celestial animals, which have no connection with the twelve animals of the Chinese zodiac, are also the names of the four divisions of the sky. The Dragon's Heart, the Pleiades, and the Bird Star are the names of three of the lunar mansions which marked the central position of the Dragon, Tiger and Bird. As there was no identifying star at the centre of the Black Tortoise, the appropriate place (the eleventh mansion) was called Void.

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The White Tiger of the West, for instance, is associated with metal. When, therefore, metal is placed in a grave, a ceremonial connection with the tiger-god is effected. 'According to the Annals of Wu and Yueh, three days after the burial of the king, the essence of the element metal assumed the shape of a white tiger and crouched down on the top of the grave.' Here the tiger is a protector - a preserver.
...As we have seen, white jade was used when the Tiger god of the West was worshipped; it is known as 'tiger jade'; a tiger was depicted on the jade symbol. To the Chinese the tiger was the king of all animals and 'lord of the mountains', and the tiger-jade ornament was specially researved for commanders of armies. The male tiger was, among other things, the god of war, and in this capacity it not only assisted the armies of the emperors, but fought the demons that threatened the dead in their graves

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Ceridwen[, a] Celtic goddess was attended by white cats, which carried out her orders on earth

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In China the tiger is Lord of the Land Animals. It is the emblem of some military officers, typifying war, might and courage. Representations: The White Tiger represents the earth, the West, the region of death, and is guardian of graves. The Blue Tiger represents the East and plant life. The Red Tiger represents the South and fire. The Black Tiger represents the North and winter. The Yellow Tiger represents the sun.

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quote:

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In Scandinavian myth cats pulled the chariot of Freyja.

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[ November 19, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Interesting.
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 
Rhys is also the name of Rhodry Maelwaedd's half-brother in Katharine Kerr's excellent Deverry and Westland series...

[ November 19, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Katharine Kerr is only the fourth person I've ever met/heard of specifically who spelled her name that way.
 

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Posted by BelladonnaOrchid (Member # 188) on :
 
Noemon, from what I understand, black cats pulled Freyja's chariot into battle, not white cats, which is what we're talking about here.

I agree with most of what you posted, Jenny, but I felt like maybe the dream of the death of the black knight could also have been a symbol of rebirth, or new beginnings in her life. Although, it could also be interpereted as the ending of a negative period and a beginning of a more positive time in her life. Sand, given it's usual origin next to the sea or bodies of water (even deserts were oceans at one point in time) could support this, as when the tide rises it covers the sand and when it receeds, the water reveals the sand again. This can be seen as a cleansing, as well.

I was going to post more, but I believe Jenny said most everything else I had to say.

(edit to add: Yeah, I know you were all wondering when I was going to post on this thread)

[ November 19, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: BelladonnaOrchid ]
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
What I'm saying, Tom, is that your derision is what is to be expected due to your worldview.

Observations which do not fit into the current worldview are generally dismissed, and usually also derided. This has no bearing on whether or not they are true observations.

A good example is all the many observations that were made in geology prior to the theory of continental drift, which supported the idea that the continents had not always been in their current places. For instance, the fact that fossils from old world faunas exist in a few places on the eastern borders of North America. The fossils of tropical faunas in Antarctica, etc. These observations were uniformly dismissed and often derided as well. Or they were explained away with spurious unlikely arguments similar to the madness hypothesis above. The girl shows no other signs of madness, so this would seem quite an unlikely theory.

Because there was no known mechanism for continents to move at the time, it seemed inconceivable to most scientists that it could be. What did they do? Go plowing their way through the ocean floor? You see the difficulty. It took a different level of understanding before those previously "wacko" observations now made perfect sense and became something we were collectively able to perceive. On every level of reality, from the small constant everyday perceptions we all make, to the greatest and deepest understanding of existence, the same effect occurs.

So, yes, Tom, I don't think it likely that this girl is mad or even lying. I think what's likely is that her experience falls outside what we can currently include in our systems of perception, limited as they are. As such, it's interesting, and notable, but not very useful to anyone except perhaps the one who experiences them.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
So what you're saying with your analogy is that these white tigers really are roaming the streets in a dimension which only this girl can see...but someday we'll all be able to see them and look back on this discussion and laugh?

I'm going to start being nicer to cats.
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
No, what I'm saying is that observations or perceptions that can't be understood are often not even made, and when they are, they are almost always dismissed, and quite often with derision. This has no bearing on their validity.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Ah, but it all depends on how you define "validity"....
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Anne Kate, I think this all comes back to your "cyberspace is as real as the real world." The problem is, it's not true.

Even if something appears real to one person, that doesn't make it real; it just means that person THINKS it's real.

Perception is not, in fact, reality.

[ November 20, 2003, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Perception may not be reality. But how do you know what reality is without filtering it through your perception? I don't know that you can have one without the other. Is there really only one reality for everyone Tom?

AJ
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
A=A, 1+1=2, and graffiti-covered carnivorous felines don't wander the streets of our major cities.
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
A->!A, 1 + 1 = 10, prove it.
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Hippie.
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Fascist pig!
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
To me perception and reality are a sort of continuum and I the line between the two is extremely blurry. That is, if there is a line at all.

AJ
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
I agree. There is a thin, blurry line, if any.

It's when people start building a brick wall between the two that we label them as "whacked out of their skull" and toss them in the padded room.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Is there really only one reality for everyone Tom?"

Yep.
There are multiple PERCEPTIONS of that reality, and countless interpretations of it, but there's still only one real thing.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Prove it!
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
*beats ALR with very real baseball bat*
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
See Friso, it looked to me like you'd just wiggled your fingers on a keyboard, and probably clicked a mouse button or two.

[ November 20, 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Who are you and why can you see me?!

Are you the little man who lives inside my bag of chips?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Are you the little man who lives inside my bag of chips?"

And perhaps he's also celia.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
When you think about it, aren't we all celia?
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I am celia, and I am legion.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
There's a little celia in all of us.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Hey now, I like celia and all..... but she ain't got no business bein' in me!
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
The question is, is that little celia in a parasitic or symbiotic relationship with us?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Mine's definitely a parasite. No! No soup for you!
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Is your celia a tape worm?
 

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Posted by BelladonnaOrchid (Member # 188) on :
 
::Watches as the thread gets derailed:: Bon voyage!
 

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Posted by ana kata (Member # 5666) on :
 
Tom, learn what this reality which we all experience is. Learn what we actually know of it. Learn about quantum electrodynamics, electromagnetic fields, and particle physics. Then learn about perception. Learn about the visual cortex and the various layers of its processing, for instance, and about neural net computers, and artificial intelligence, and what is known by science now about the way the brain perceives. Then you will understand reality a little better. Then we can have an intelligent conversation about reality. You talk about reality but you don't even know what it is.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Oddly enough, aka, I do know about those things. Yet my view of reality is quite different from yours.

Coincidentally, its also quite different from Tom's.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 

 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I'll second that
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 

quote:

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A=A, 1+1=2, and graffiti-covered carnivorous felines don't wander the streets of our major cities.

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As a matter of fact, its not a major city.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I have to chime in a bit here.

I love mythology, folklore, and legend. I love old religions of every variety.

[rant]

And I hate the way much of these old, deep things are being twisted by today's incessant need to make things sweet or equitable.

There is something in me that wants the blood, the sacrifice, the pain and glory of these old tales. And yet wherever I turn, I see legends turned into tales of pseudo-heroism.

The worst I've seen lately is a kiddie-glove treatment of the legend of the Golem of Prague. Apparently, Rabbi Loewe (pardon the spelling) laid the tired thing asleep, now. Never mind the lessons learned about meddling with life, and death; never mind the strong moral lessons of God's love for his people, or a rabbi's desire to protect his own.

Never mind the legend of an old man, desperate to save his people from tyranny, committing blasphemy by placing the the true name of God on bits of paper in the golem's hands and mouth so it could LIVE.

Never mind the magic. Apparently, we'd rather be nice.

[/rant]
 

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Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
 
Scott, in some ways I understand what you're saying. (Christianity can actually be pretty bloody if you look at it the right way.)

But in other ways, isn't being nice about valuing life? What's the good of living if you have to spend the whole time trying to dodge the bullet? "Niceness" is a way of saying, "I value your life and I want to get out of your way and let you live it to the fullest."
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I'm not talking about life-- I'm talking about myth.

Sure, be nice in life.

But remember the pain in the old stories, and don't try to sugar-coat it, or excuse it.

Don't make Jesus into a pretty-boy.
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
Scott R, you rock. Myth is just not very powerful without its darkness and warnings. Fluffy gods and goddesses have little connection with reality. It is much more interesting to explore symbols with both their positive and shadow sides. And generally, if you work with metaphor and myth, much more accurate and satisfying.

I, too, don't understand why we want to tell the stories without the pain. For some it's "protecting the children". In my experience, the painful stories are more beloved and powerful for them. Wrestling with the deep stuff is just as important for them. They need powerful stories and myths, just as we all do. When we were talking about Veteran's Day, I was asked "Why do we have wars?" I answered that wars have been going on for all of human history, and that people still struggle with that question. Unfortunately, we had to go to lunch and couldn't continue the conversation. I really wanted to hear the discussion that could have come out of that simple question.

I think that myths can help us deal with concepts like war. In our PC culture, we are taught to be "nice", and conflict is pretty much viewed as a negative thing. Myths, the old ones, presented war as an aspect of life.

I want to say more, but I've got to go to work now.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'm actually quite hurt by AKA's assumption that I know nothing about electromagnetism, neural net theory, or particle physics. Apparently, as a former English major and college dropout, I have typecast myself.

I would retort that AKA should read some good books to learn more about reality, but I'll do her the favor of assuming she already HAS (and, even as a former English major, will readily concede that electrodynamics is more valuable in a study of reality than Jane Austen.)
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
While I agree Austen isn't particularly valuable for a study of reality, I'd suggest Beckett is highly appropriate.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
So do we think AKA has read enough Beckett? j/k
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't get it.

I think anne kate is telling the truth as she sees it.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'm sure she is. But since my point is that the truth as people see it is not in fact the Truth, I can't very well say something like "Well, you're right for YOU."
 

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Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
 
Celia is reading a book that has a very interesting take on all this perception vs. reality thing. I hope she posts here!
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
What's the book? You don't have to spoil her telling us about it, but I think it's illegal* to say something like that without at least giving the title.

*if it isn't, it should be.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I saw a great movie the other day that also shed light on this.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
::howls with frustration::
 

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Posted by asQmh (Member # 4590) on :
 
Donnie Darko?

^_~

Q.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I can't believe no one has posted admiration about my knowing about the Golem of Prague.

I mean, that's at least as good as one of Ralphie's stupid little pseudo-sex jokes.
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Well done Scott. Feel the love.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
Oh, come on Scott. Golems are so 1999. You get no credit for that.

But I do give your overall point and the way you make it high marks: 9.4

EDIT: I lied. Golems are so 2000 -- not 1999.

[ November 21, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I've never heard of the golem of Prague before. And I've BEEN to Prague! *wants to go back*

Is there a good place to read about it? The non-Disney version?
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I thought that the Golem of Prague was common knowledge (that shouldn't be taken as a stinging comment, by the way; I never really have a good grasp of what folklore/myth/fable stuff is common knowledge and what isn't, because I was so heavily exposed to it as a child. I tend to assume that if I know it it's common knowledge, but that isn't a particularly accurate or useful way of categorizing things).

In any case, it's a fantastic story. I'll poke around and see if I can find it online for you kat.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Thanks!

It's always amazing to me what things sometimes fall completely through the cracks as common knowledge. I know someone who had never heard of apartheid. Not at all. Didn't what the big deal about South Africa was. I can understand not knowing a lot, especially since it formally ended a while ago, but to have never even heard of it? Go figure!

I'm sure there are large, huge gaps in my education that will appear at only embarassing moments. That's why I have Hatrack - to fix that.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Sure!

I have gaps like that myself, I'm sure; I just don't know what they are, because if I did, I wouldn't have them.

I'm woefully ignorant of pretty much everything sports related, I suppose, and don't feel any particular urge to change that.

Anyway, about the Golem. So far I haven't found a really good retelling of the folktale online. There's this fairly colorless summation of the story, and This version, which is more interestingly (if sometimes poorly) written version, but is incomplete.

I'm about to go to a meeting, but if Kayla or somebody doesn't beat me to the punch, I'll do more searching after it's over.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
I always thought the Golem was common knowledge as well, until I brought it up in an english class last year and only got blank stares from everyone including the proffessor.

Also, I once again have to side with Tom. Quantum physics and all those other things ak listed have been a hobby of mine for years now, and I can't side with ak here.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
My stars, In Search of Magic suddenly makes a whole lot more sense.

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Slightly off-topic, do you ever go back to a book you had read a million times before and so many more things make sense?

********To Kill a Mockingbird SPOILERS***********

I'm rereading To Kill a Mockingbird, and this time there was about a two-year gap between readings. It is as wonderful as always, but it wasn't until THIS reading that I realized that the crowd at the jailhouse the night before the trial was there to lynch Tom, and Atticus planned on defending him with his life. I knew it was dangerous, but since the story is told from Scout's point of view, you don't have to know anything more than Scout does. It wasn't until I had more experience and became one of the adults that so mystified her that I have figured out just what was going in that little town. Heck, I was almost graduated from high school before I figured out everything Mayella was enduring at home, and older than that before I knew what code of behavior she violated by kissing Tom.

That's why it's my favorite book, I think. It works at every age, and the best part is, if something is too much or too innapropriate for a mind not ready, they simply won't get it. I love it.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
The golem is the subject of stories by both Elie Wiesel and Isaac Bashevis Singer, as well as a Caldecott award-winning book by David Wisniewski (not to mention countless other renditions and appearances in various and sundry works). It was also featured in an X-files episode.

As a meme, it bubbled to the surface and hit the mainstream media big in 2000 [thus my comment to Scott above] with the release of Michael Chabon's Pulitizer-prize winning _The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay_. To quote Chabon:

quote:

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The golem is a character out of Jewish folklore, a myth that dates back thousands of years, before the time of Christ. The most famous legend is the one that deals with the golem of Prague, who was made by Rabbi Judah Loew ben Bezalel. There were lots of other stories about different rabbis making golems, but for some reason, this is the one that caught the imagination, not just of Jewish listeners over the centuries, but of novelists.

A lot has been written about the golem of Prague; films have been made about this artificial man, formed from river clay, who is brought to life by spells and incantations. In some stories, he's made merely to be a servant, to help clean up around the synagogue on Friday nights, to do menial jobs that somebody with a soul and brain would not want to do. In others, he's made to be a protector of the Jews of the Prague ghetto. That is the version I'm most interested in, because I see those stories of creating a defender as a possible antecedent for the idea of the superhero. It was that aspect of it that first excited me.

Comic books fought the Second World War. I knew the Jewishness of the two characters was going to be important. Somehow, I decided to have Joe Kavalier be a refugee from a country that was occupied by the Nazis. In 1939, there was the annexation of Austria and then Czechoslovakia. Then, in September, we got the invasion of Poland that started the war. I'd been to Prague, so I chose Prague. He just gets off the boat, more or less. He shows up in New York, and the day he gets there, his crazy cousin says, "We're going into the comic book business, and since you can draw, you can draw my Superman." Joe has no idea what Superman is, what a superhero is, or even what a comic book is. So when he's asked to draw a superhero, the only thing he can think of is a golem. When I was writing that, I began to feel that there was going to be more to this book than just superheroes, that somehow it was going to tie into a lot of other stuff having to do with Jewish folklore.

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quote:

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As a meme, it bubbled to the surface and hit the mainstream media big in 2000

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quote:

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That's why it's my favorite book, I think. It works at every age, and the best part is, if something is too much or too innapropriate for a mind not ready, they simply won't get it. I love it.

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quote:

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I can't believe no one has posted admiration about my knowing about the Golem of Prague.

I mean, that's at least as good as one of Ralphie's stupid little pseudo-sex jokes.

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Now you're just making the wee baby Ralphie cry.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ralphie has a lightning rod permanently installed leading straight from the beanie to the rubber soles of her shoes.
 

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Posted by Jerryst316 (Member # 5054) on :
 
Well, I just wanted to add that if in fact she is seeing past events it could in fact be a hindu kind of reincarnation. She may be experiencing her past life and be intimately aware of past experiences. It is definately far-fetched but if you really believe her that could be the explanation.

Edit: The tiger could be something that she loved in her previous life and therefore it makes her feel safe when she experiences her past life.

[ November 21, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Jerryst316 ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
My favorite line from The Creature From the Black Lagoon is delivered by one of the scientists: "Be careful! That creature might even remember the past -- and more!"
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
1 + 1 = 10

Squick,

This is in fact true if you happen to be counting in binary.

- twinky
 

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Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
 
Noem, the book is still Cosmic Trigger and i'm still only 40 pages in.

He just swapped from the spirit of Mescaline appearing to him and a wierd association between that green critter and leprechauns and spock, to synchonity (too tired to recall if that's the right word) around him, lee harvey oswald and timothy leary.

Everyone else, that little bit of me in each of you will be activated on midnight of the night i take over the earth. thank you all so much for being part of my army. make your peace now, the days of the current reign are short lived indeed.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Okay, I'll have to read it. I've got a pretty long "to read" list, but Cosmic Trigger is going onto it.

Does this mean, then, that I don't have to be part of your army (I noticed that your message about being part of your army was addressed to everyone--presumably in the world--but me)? Are you reserving me for some higher purpose?

[ November 24, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Tom, I agree the tiger thing is farfetched, I gave my best possible scenario where I could see it happening.

However, you say there is only one reality. My question is how do you know that "real" reality is your own? (I know it is a Matrix-esque question) You are just as biased by your rational skepticism into disbeliving everything as a naturally gullible person is biased to believe everything. I tend towards the skeptical side myself. But I guess I'm skeptical or cynical enough to doubt my own rationality and perceptions of reality as well.

AJ
 

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Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
 
Yuppers whetever not reading just posting.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"My question is how do you know that 'real' reality is your own? (I know it is a Matrix-esque question)"

Naturally, I do not know that it is. However, it is ESSENTIAL for me to behave as though it is. It's much like the classical illusion of free will; whether or not we actually have it, we have to behave as if we did.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Of course, everyone behaves as if their reality is the correct one. And there must be enough overlaps because of the underlieing "real" reality that we all mostly manage to scrape along together. But there is a difference between behaving as if your reality is the correct one and questioning whether it is or not. The questioning is a step back into the cerebral, which distances you from the physical to begin with. I think the questioning is an important excercise to make the mental corrections neccessary to make course corrections to keep your reality as close to the "real" reality as possible.

AJ
 

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Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
 
Noem, I wouldn't say "higher" purpose.
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
I just know that I'm going to accidentally say "symbolance" instead of "symbolism" soon after seeing it here so many times.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Forget to check this thread for a few days, and miss all the Golem of Prague talk. (Oh, and he's rarely referred to as Rabbi Loew. He's more commonly known as the MaHaRaL.)

First of all, Scott RAWKS. This is such a known thing that people simply forget to mention it.

quote:

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Never mind the legend of an old man, desperate to save his people from tyranny, committing blasphemy by placing the the true name of God on bits of paper in the golem's hands and mouth so it could LIVE.

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Erm. No. First of all, not blasphemy. A matter of grave seriousness, with potentially dreadful consequences if carried out by someone without the proper knowledge or intentions -- but not blasphemous. And the Name was placed in his mouth, only. On his head was inscribed the word emes, truth.

Linky Another amusing link Short bio of the Maharal
The Golem and Tolkien -- this one has lots of interesting links
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Huh. . . I was sure that the name was placed in his hands as well. . . I'll see if I can find the source that mislead me and box their ears.

But the LINKY link that rivka posted addresses some of my concerns: the making of the golem was only possible if the Koen, the Levite, and Loew were all 'sanctified' in a religious manner-- the MaHaRaL wasn't just a hero because he brought the Golem to life. He was a hero because of personal worthiness.

And truth altered is death. . . wow. See? See what you miss if the legend is corrupted? There are so many layers to this story. . .

Thanks, rivka.

[ November 24, 2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
There may well be such sources. The legend has been rewritten many times since the mid-1800s. Likely there's some version that has the golem decked out like a ticker-tape parade.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I like that version where they have the golem sing "Puttin' on the Ritz".
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
:quietly cuts Noemon's head off:

Hey, his post count was smaller than mine.

Therefore, he was valueless to Hatrack.
 

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