Just got word that the Houses of Healing scene will be cut from ROTK, because Jackson felt that it took too much time away from Frodo. Here's the link where I found out, it's on a side bar: http://www.msnbc.com/news/997130.asp. Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
It cannot be! Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I guess that's just what dvd's are all about.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
*cries*
that's one of the best parts
What are they going to have left without Saruman and the Houses of Healing?
I'm distressed.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS
quote: Spoilers: Cutting-Room Floor
A guide to a few prominent plot elements that Jackson had to cut on the way to the screen. Stop reading now if you like surprises--or have no idea what we're talking about anyway. Houses of Healing: In the novel, Eowyn and Faramir convalesce here after battle. Aragorn heals her; she falls harder for him; Faramir falls for her. Jackson shot it, but felt the movie had strayed from Frodo too long. Viggo Mortensen was sad to learn (from Newsweek) the scene was gone. It'll be on the DVD. Saruman: Jackson filmed a scene for 'The Two Towers' in which Wormtongue kills the traitorous wizard, then bumped it to 'Return of the King'--and then cut it because it felt like old business, which slowed the new movie. A shame. Again, that's what DVDs are for. The Scouring of the Shire: One of the final sequences of the book, where the hobbits come home, find their hometownÕs gone to pot, kick some butts and restore order. Jackson never liked this section of the book, and never even shot it, so don't look for it on the DVD.
How truly saddening. The Houses of Healing are such a beautiful part of that book. Thank goodness for DVDs.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I was really looking forward to the houses of healing. A lot of character development goes on there! Not to mention that it's a huge factor in establishing the legitimacy of Aragorn's rein.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Okay, this seriously ticks me off -- because it means that Jackson completely missed the point of the novel, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, I knew he didn't "get" the Scouring of the Shire. But the Houses of Healing is the other part of that axis of decency, and he's removed BOTH of them. Without either scene, RotK is basically a very, very long war movie.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
That's actually what they were talking about in the appendicies of TTT-EE That TTT was a war movie and that the story was a war story. I think PJ is finally burning out and losing sight of Tolkein. (Either that or his wife has.) One of his top assistants fought to keep the Faramier-Boromir-Denethor scene in because he got it. I wish we had the 1999 PJ editing this instead of the 2003 PJ editing it. But at least all of the good stuff that the 1999 PJ filmed will go back in the DVD.
AJ
Posted by Sugar+Spice (Member # 5874) on :
Just a small rant - I'm not sure how Faramir's story is going to make sense without these scenes. How is it explained that Faramir and Eowyn get together? I feel pretty sorry for the guy who plays Faramir, on the TTT EE, he shows that he is a capable actor, but his best scenes seem to keep being cut. Also, these are the moments where Aragorn shows that he is destined to be King, he has powers which only the true King could have. Am hugely disappointed. I wish they could just show the DVD version for the fans as well as the cinema release for the people who just have three hours free and want to see a movie.
What's so bad about character development, anyway? From my experience, when you have a movie which is just an enormous battle and never shows you why you should care about the people involved, you tend to loose interest. That's one of my problems with the Matrix, I don't care about any of them.
PLEASE tell me that the grey havens aren't out. If they are I'll just give up and wait for the DVD.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
What's the point of the story without the scouring of the shire? That's big. How could he not even shoot it? Grrrrrrrrrrr. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Maybe PJ is screwing it up on purpose so he won't have to kill anyone if he doesn't get the best picture Oscar this year. The academy risks "marginalizing itself" if it fails to act... But I see this as a serious risk since the culture seems to be listing toward pacifism at the moment.
I haven't finished the book, but it seems like you fans see every little detail as the pivotal moment of the book. I guess it is a testament to the multifacted complexity of the book. The film is still more than a really long war movie, it's a beefcake fest. And it's success will mean many more beefcake fests to come.
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! *tears clothes* *puts on sackcloth and ashes* That's horrible! That was one of the most memorable parts of RotK! PJ is gonna be gettin' some hate mail...
Posted by cyruseh (Member # 1120) on :
I am still convinced that the scouring will be in the movie, or the dvd. I know I am probably wrong, but my desperate hope will not allow me to give up on the thought, until I see the movie with my own eyes...
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
They've already said that the scouring of the shire won't be in there. But that was a while back.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
See, I'm not too terribly rocked by this. I remember feeling impatient when I read that part, it felt very, very anticlimatic. I was always like, "Yes, yes, and what happened to Frodo and the War?"
From what I've hear ROTK will be heavily character based, and those who love Faramir will have his suicidal charge heavily stressed in the movie. So those fearing a war movie with a ring in it can be moderately reassured.
He's done the other two very well. Have some faith.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: I wish we had the 1999 PJ editing this instead of the 2003 PJ editing it
I'm sure PJ wishes he were editing for the 1999 "thank goodness it doesn't stink" audience rather than the "each one is better than the last" 2003 audience.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I haven't finished the book, but it seems like you fans see every little detail as the pivotal moment of the book."
Perhaps you should finish the book, pooka, before disputing claims that the Houses of Healing and Scouting of the Shire chapters are essential to the plot as Tolkien intended it. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: But I see this as a serious risk since the culture seems to be listing toward pacifism at the moment.
O_O
Feel free to make a thread about this. I would be very interested in seeing any kind of substantiation for this statement.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
I would like to point out that I am still bitter about the Scouring of the Shire being cut.
That is all.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
quote: I would like to point out that I am still bitter about the Scouring of the Shire being cut.
That is all.
I would like to second that.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I'm not terribly bummed about the Scouring of the Shire being cut. It was a cool ending, yeah, it tied up loose ends, yeah, but in the long run, I could do without it.
Now, the House of Healing stuff, I'm sad. That, however, is simply because I fell in love with Faramir in that part of the book and wanted to be Eowyn like nobody's business (heck, I still do want to be her, what am I saying?).
Posted by Sugar+Spice (Member # 5874) on :
quote:Now, the House of Healing stuff, I'm sad. That, however, is simply because I fell in love with Faramir in that part of the book and wanted to be Eowyn like nobody's business
Am totally identifying with this sentiment. I was wondering why I was so bothered about this scene being cut.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
You are bothered because it STINKS!! That's why. It helps to prove Aragorn's lineage...and it was the only thing that could have possibly SORT OF redeemed Faramir in my eyes after his awful character mood swings in TTT.
It does seem like it's going to be just a really long war movie.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
quote:I'm not terribly bummed about the Scouring of the Shire being cut. It was a cool ending, yeah, it tied up loose ends, yeah, but in the long run, I could do without it.
It's not that Scouring ties up loose ends. It's that, for me, the Scouring is the entire point of the series. What the Scouring does is show us the hobbits bringing home their experience to make things better at home. Tolkien's powerful feel for England, particularly its rural villages and landscapes, comes through powerfully in this section. The Scouring is, in some ways, exactly what faery stories are about - escaping to a fantasy realm, feeling something, learning something, growing up in some way and then returning with a renewed love and appreciation for Home.
I find it interesting that Jackson identified so strongly with the Nordic elements of LOTR (mythic heroism) and not with the rural English elements (home, self-sacrifice, love of peace).
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Not only that, but the Scouring reminds the reader that "you can never go home." Funny they'd leave that out, seeing as the phrase "you can never go home" is in "Gollum's Song" on the TTT soundtrack.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Listen, I don't think anyone here is going to make the claim that the first two sucked. We lost all sorts of precious and intrinsic things to the story in both of those, and we all flipped out about it, and then once the movies premiered we were reduced to weeping piles of jelly and bought lots of silly merchandise. This is just deja vu. It'll work. PJ's proved everyone twice that he can do it, against all odds, and we all loved it. My bet is we'll love this one, too.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I agree. I think we're all holding too high of standards. Peter Jackson might be good, but he's no Tolkien. The book will always be better. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
you also have to remember that the theatrical release is a different movie based on the two previous theatrical releases. The ROTK movie can't be the sequel to FOTR EE and TTT EE, it's the sequel to FOTR and TTT. And that's an important distinction. like the elven rope scene in TTT EE only makes sense if you've seen FOTR EE and seen the gift giving scene. So not that this scene has scenes in the other two that preceed it, but maybe the feel of it only makes sense, or works better given that you've seen the two previous EEs. Yes, it's a better movie with it, but certain things have to be given up for the theater, and i'm glad they're doing what they're doing on dvd, to allow us to see so much more.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
*sigh*
From the title, I thought this topic would be about a law made that outlawed faith healing.
[ November 25, 2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:The Scouring of the Shire: One of the final sequences of the book, where the hobbits come home, find their hometown's gone to pot, kick some butts and restore order. Jackson never liked this section of the book, and never even shot it, so don't look for it on the DVD.
He never even liked it? Then what business does he have making the movie? I'm no Tolkien fanatic, but that ticks me off. Anyone know if they'll still have the Grey Havens?
Posted by Sugar+Spice (Member # 5874) on :
The Scouring of the Shire was one of my favourite parts of the book and emotionally one of the most powerful parts of the book on a human and historical level, together with the Dead Marshes and the incredible loyalty of Sam, because it so closely mirrored the experiences of those young men who, like Tolkien, were soldiers in the First World War. That section of the book always reminds me of the end of Wilfred Owen's 'The Send Off'.
quote: Shall they return to beatings of great bells In wild train-loads? A few, a few, too few for drums and yells,
May creep back, silent, to village wells, Up half-known roads.
Although Tolkien denied that the book was an allegory of the recent World Wars, I believe that, perhaps even unconsciously, he drew on his own experiences as soldier. The hobbits leave the Shire, innocent and unaware of the dangers they must face. They are sure that they will be home soon, unhurt. They face terrible dangers and are transformed by them. They see things that the people at home cannot imagine. But coming home is not as simple as one might imagine. The home you come back to is never the one that you leave, if you have changed and much time has passed. The hobbits have become, through suffering, exactly what the people at home needed, they now have the ability to face any hardship and not give in. I see the Scouring as reflecting the soldiers of the First and Second World Wars, my Grandparents, coming home and having to fight for a better world at home, for themselves and their families.
Just because you are no longer fighting a war which will change the fate of an entire world, does not mean that your work and your duties are over, or even less important. That's why I will miss this section of the book, as I do not believe that it is pointless, but rather, the entire point. The basic story will not be harmed by it's removal, but much depth will be lost.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
I've only read the books one and a half times and I don't know them nearly as well as other people do, but the scouring of the shire is immensely important to the ending of the trilogy. You can't start a story and then leave out half of the ending!
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
According to the December 2003/January 2004 issue of Premiere magazine,
quote:But the biggest concerns revolve around the ending of the trilogy, especially when the hobbits' home, the Shire, is plundered. Tolkien's "Scouring of the Shire" chapter won't be happening in Jackson's version, according to the hobbits. "We were really keen to do it," Monaghan says, but after talking with Jackson, they were convinced that "in the film, the ultimate objective is the ring, and that's what the audience is invested in. You can't take them through three films and have the final destiny of the ring fulfilled and then keep them involved for another 40 minutes. We were all pretty bummed out because, yeah, four hobbits riding into the Shire on horses and kicking a lot of people's asses would have been brilliant. We would have loved it."
From a cinematic perspective, I agree 100%, if not more. It's a great literary ending, but I don't think it would work in a theatre, espeically without the backstory required that is missing from the first two movies. I think that in this context, it is a plot thread that doesn't need to be developed in the movie (like the Locke/Demosthenes part of EG that won't be in the movie - cinematically boring and ultimately not the focus of the movie).
Posted by Hazen (Member # 161) on :
When I first heard about the EEs, I thought "Oh good, now they can do the scouring of the shire." I am very disappointed that we won't get it at all. It may not be the best for the theatrical version, but it would be perfect for the DVD.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I'm sure PJ will establish the love connection between Faramir and Eowyn in there somehow. Maybe during the battle at the black gates it'll suddenly cut back to the Houses of Healing where Faramir and Eowyn are doing tequila shots and laughing uncontrollably, and then Faramir talking about the time he went backpacking through Europe. Bing ba da boom, whaddya know, it's magic.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
I don't mean that they should put the scouring of the shire into the regular movie, but why can't they shoot it and put it into the EE? They did have those scenes in the mirror/basin of water in the first movie. It's a let-down because they had the foreshadowing in the first movie and then decided not to put the scenes into the last movie. I'm just disappointed that PJ didn't even allow it to be a possibility.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I think it was an obvious choice to cut the scouring of the shire. Despite its importance in the book and its significance, it simply would not work in the movie to tell this story after the climax.
Unlike the other parts that have been added in the extended edition, this isn't a little snip here and an extra scene there. Its an additional 40 minutes of film requiring new sets and all. Like the Tom Bombadil chapters of FOTR, Jackson knew from the beginning that he would not include this scene so there was never any footage on the cutting room floor to add back to an extended edition.
As OSC has comment many times, when a movie is made from a book stuff has to be cut.
In my opinion, I think the loss of the early scenes in the old forest and with Tom Bombadil are a greater loss. It was in those scenes that we saw Frodo's strength and heroism before he was fully burdened with the ring. Without those scenes, we never really see the strong Frodo and so the influence of the ring on him is not as dramatic and tragic.
[ November 25, 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Rabbit: strongly agreed. I was amazed that Tom was cut from the movie. I thought Tom was great.
Let me get this straight, Jackson isn't putting the the Scouring of the Shire or Houses of Healing in EE either? That's so frustrating! Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
If I understood correctly, the Houses of Healing scenes were filmed and will be included in the EE. The Scouring of the Shire was never filmed.
The real problem, as I see it, is that the Lord of the Rings is divided into six books, not three. To truly tell the full story, PJ should have made 6 movies not three. But I suppose that task would have been impossible, so I am simply glad that the movies are great enough to return me to that time of my life when I lived in middle earth.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I'm distressed.
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
What's the point of the story without the scouring of the shire? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
The book will always be better.