quote:Does he forget to notice the fact that the badguys are also green, grey, light brown, black, and oh yes one of the allies of the good guys are made of GREEN jello? and oh yes, does he forget the southron who are white? The pirates of Umbar who are white? The Haradrim who are white? The mouth of Sauron (Extended edition footage) who is white? Saruman the White? Racist my ass.
Can you imagine how people of skin color, of Persian, Arab and East Asian ethnic background feel when they come out of these films where all the heroes are white and all the 'evil doers' are of dark skin," Hart writes.
quote:**laughs hysterically**
After watching the Lord of the Rings films I thank the universe and Mother Earth for the Rap/hip-hop culture and the counterbalancing influence the Rap/hip-hop culture has on the youth here in America and around the world.
code:RACE GOOD BAD
Valar The 12 (Elbereth, Yavannah, etc.) Melkor
Maia good Istari, Tom Bombadil, Sauron, Balrogs, Ungoliant
Melian, Beorn
Wizards Gandalf, Radagast Saruman
Elves Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan, etc. Kinslayers of the Noldor
Ents Treebeard, Quickbeam, etc. Huorns? not clear if Ents or trees
Trees Quickbeam's beloved friends Old Man Willow
Dwarves Gimli, Balin, Thorin, etc. Dwarves can be stubborn, greedy, etc.
Men Aragorn, Elendil, Southrons, Nazgul,
Faramir Denethor, bad Numenoreans,
Bill Ferny
Hobbits Frodo, Bilbo, Samwise, etc. Smeagol,
Ted Sandyman, Lotho Baggins
Orcs ----------- Grishnakh, Snaga, etc.
quote:Just wanted to clear up a common misconception. The Book of Mormon, according to my reading of it, never says that all Native Americans are direct descendants of Israel. At best it says that there are a finite (but not necessarily huge) number of Native Americans somewhere in North, Central or South America that have a little bit of Israelite blood somewhere in their remote genetic history.
what about the premise from the BOM that the Native Americans were the lost tribe of Israel?
quote:Because English Departments have to justify their existence somehow.
I wonder why this idea persists.
quote:This statement invalidates everything this guy says after it. Not even a basic knowledge of history could permit someone to say something so wrong.
a "crusade" against the "evil doers" in nations that white people have been invading, terrorizing, raping and pillaging in for 5000 years with zero provocation,
quote:Chinese what now? The author's agenda has clearly gotten the best of him.
In fact all Europe's mathematics, reading and writing and technological advancements in transportation and warfare are all based on African and Asian concepts. The reason that Western medicine has not advanced to the enlightened technological level as Chinese herbal medicine...
quote:That would be racist. It would not be racist to say that people of sub-Saharan African descent have darker skin in general than people of Nordic descent.
Tresopax said:
I think you may be stretching pretty far to try and remove the racism. LotR is pretty clear in suggesting that certain races are naturally better or worse than others. There are exceptions, but wouldn't you call someone who believes the vast majority of blacks are stupider than the vast majority of whites a racist? Would you refrain from calling them racist if they admitted that "well, okay, there are one or two good blacks"?
quote:The point you’re missing is that in Tolkien’s world, the statements you listed are generally true (except for the Hobbits being lazy – that’s a distortion ). They’re not prejudiced stereotypes – they are facts built into the makeup of each species. And since Tolkien created them all except Man, he gets to say what is true and what’s not about them.
Tresopax said:
The Orcs and Goblins are bad. The Men and Elves are good. Hobbits are usually lazy. Men are more corruptable than elves. Dwarves are generally greedy. You sure aren't denying Tolkein describes the races as such, are you?
quote:Then he wrote his agent something like, “I think the German deal just fell through.”
I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.
quote:The word racist has come to refer to a comment or person who makes comments that espouse a prejudiced stereotype. Tom is right - Tolkien's work is racist, but in the purest sense of the word. Instead of applying derogatory stereotypes, the racist statements that Tolkien makes concerning the species in his works are generalities that are, more often than not, very true on an individual level, and are used to illustrate the character of the race in quesiton. Prejudiced stereotypes do their damage because they aren't true on an individual level.
Originally posted by Danogee
The point you’re missing is that in Tolkien’s world, the statements you listed are generally true (except for the Hobbits being lazy – that’s a distortion ). They’re not prejudiced stereotypes – they are facts built into the makeup of each species. And since Tolkien created them all except Man, he gets to say what is true and what’s not about them.
quote:Not, it’s not.
Tresopax said:
So, it's not racism if it's true?
quote:No, it's not a prejudiced stereotype if it's true.
Originally posted by Tresopax
So, it's not racism if it's true?
quote:Absolutely not. I completely concur.
The point is, it is easily conceivable that different sentient species would have different intellectual abilities. Pointing out these differences would not be racist.
quote:Actually, they were so jammed in, it was pretty much impossible to avoid the rocks until a few of them had been cleaned out. And as I recall, (in the movie) one of the orc leaders did simply step aside.
To tie this back in with the Tolkien argument, were they any examples that orcs were necessarily stupider than humans?
Well, okay, they weren't bright enough to avoid the giant rocks.
quote:Well, I'm sure Saruman would count that a gain since he was going for vengeful, angry, twisted creatures -
But I think the big problem here is that orcs are portrayed not only as stupider or uglier, but that they're more evil (note how the first Uruk-Hai we see strangles the pureblood orc who frees him from his birthing sac),
quote:Well, actually, they knew it was a valuable item and the fight was over the fact that Gorbag (orc) wanted the shirt for himself, rather than following orders and taking the goods to "the Eye" which is when he and Shagrat got into it - and like any good bar-style brawl, it just degenerated . . .
less decent (note how all the orcs killed each other on a whim when Frodo was being held prisoner, and all over the mithril shirt -- which they didn't even understand was mithril),
quote:Well, as to that cowardly business, it's a good thing a bunch of men were cowardly the first time around so that Aragorn would have an army to collect, hmmm?
and more cowardly (observe their frightened reactions to the Rohirrim and subsequent fleeing) than men are.
quote:Almost any one-dimensional character is a plot weakness – I’ll agree with you there.
Lalo said
It makes for a pretty movie where we can cheer guilt-free at the slaughter of the poor bastards, but in my opinion, it's Tolkien's greatest plot weakness.
quote:Yes, but how about this, which would be more accurate to Tolkien's races - which, as pointed above, are closer to different species than just 'regionally and superficially different' "races":
Would you see racism if I said "Even black people can rise above their circumstances and become as intelligent as white people"?