quote: Paul noticed the butterflies had moved closer, buzzing just a few yards away. He watched them. Paul never watched bugs before. He really wasn’t much of a nature person. Yet he sat there, entranced. And they responded. They danced for him, with wings of rainbow colors that glowed in the sunlight. They weaved and bobbed and dove and flew in circles, in squares, in complicated perfect octagons. Paul just stared and smiled in awe.
“They were beautiful,” he thought. “They were definitely larger than any butterfly I’ve ever heard of. My God, how beautiful! Even their bug like bodies.” He stared at them closer and realized again he’d gone insane. There were no bug bodies. There bodies were of beautiful multicolored women.
“If I was sane,” Paul thought, “I’d panic about now. Instead I’m enjoying the show. I’m accepting three-inch long crayon colored women with vibrantly colored cellophane wings. My God they are beautiful.
[ January 08, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I can see that this author is trying, and I think with a little work he or she will go a long way. It seems very clear to me that the author has a good mental image of the scene being described, and he (can I just say he? I don't have any particular thoughts on gender at present, but it's so cumbersome to keep writing "he or she.") is trying to establish a strong POV. But the execution is a little clumsy.
Actually, the first paragraph is not bad. There are a few wordings that I might rearrange, but overall it's fine. It gives a good idea of the visuals he's trying to evoke. But the rest of the passage leaves a bit to be desired.
It almost feels like he wrote it as speech because he has this idea that a good writer should make use of dialogue (or, in this case, internal monologue). But it's not really an appropriate place for it.
To begin with, I prefer internal monologue to be offset with italics, rather than quotes. This makes it easier to distinguish from actual vocalizations.
quote:“They were beautiful,” he thought. “They were definitely larger than any butterfly I’ve ever heard of. My God, how beautiful! Even their bug like bodies.”
The thing about this part is that it doesn't really sound like something that someone would think. When you see a beautiful sunset, you don't think to yourself, It was quite a beautiful sunset. You'd think something like, My God, have I ever seen colors like that? or Wow. Just... Wow. or maybe, Wait a second... It's sunset... Oh no! I'm late for my dinner with Mom! The way it's written now it sounds pretty much the same as the prose does: a description.
But notwithstanding the execution of the inner monologue, I think it could be better handled with a tighter POV. Just incorporate Paul's reactions into the prose. Maybe something like:
quote:They were beautiful, and definitely larger than any butterfly he'd ever heard of. My God, how beautiful! Even their bug-like bodies.
Wait.
Paul closed his eyes, sucking in a deep breath before opening them again. No, it was true. There were no bug bodies. Tiny, multicolored women--and beautiful ones, at that--fluttered around before him on gossamer wings.
It gives the passage much more emotional intensity to really tell it from Paul's point of view. This way, we can experience it right along with him, rather than being told what he's thinking. I think that the author was shooting for that with the inner monologue, but writing it as speech actually removes the intimacy that close prose would give you.
Still, I can tell that the author was trying. I think that maybe a writing class or even just peer review would really help tighten up that prose. It sounds like the author has got plenty of imagination, so really not too much work would be needed to make him into a top-notch storyteller.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
For some reason, his really reminds me of Noemon's piece in the first season
The piece has a day-dream like quality, but I keep getting this boyish feel to a very feminine fantasy. "crayon colored women," "bug like bodies." These phrases juxtapose the telling of beauty, but maybe its supposed to?
Noemon
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No Noemon.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The switch to past tense is particularly jarring; NO ONE does internal monologue in past tense.
I'm going to guess that this is a fairly young author, and a female one. Ryuko?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
This has gives a very clear image, but sort of hanging in a completely undefined space. I think I'd like a word or sentence to give the position.
"Buzzing just a few yards away across the garden" for instance.
And do butterflies (or things that look like butterflies) buzz, as such? Buzzing implies the noise that bees, wasps and flies make, and the sort of flight they have, instead of the irregular airy fluttering of butterflies.
When I first read the past-tense dialogue, I thought the first paragraph was a flashback. That needs to be fixed, especially since it switches to present later on.
I think the first sentence has a problem. I think it needs a "that". Paul noticed that the butterflies moved closer. This may be only a style thing, though.
My Random Guess:
Locke
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No and no.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
quote:There bodies were of beautiful multicolored women.
Their.
I'd like to concur with the critique provided by Saxon75 (who is really good at this critiqueing thing, but frequently forgets to guess). And also what Tom said. And Teshi.
The writing has a sort of sweet naïvety to it("Paul never watched bugs before") which, together with a similar naïvety in Paul's thought processes, I think may point to the conclusion that everything is not alright with his mental faculties: perhaps he is slightly retarded or perhaps his assumption as to his sanity has more to it than him presently seeing fairies.
Based on the subject matter of the excerpt and on the name of the protagonist, I'm guessing Pixie.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I'm a bit shocked at how much less popular Season 2 seems to be than Season 1 was.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
#1 Hatrack is generally slow at the moment, though picking up.
#2 [whine] Now it's so hard to get points -- actually, no one even knows how the points are going to work! [/whine]
#3 Maybe I'm not the only one who hasn't been in any critique-y mood? (I've told several people I was doing critiquing for elsewhere that I'm indefinitely unavailable except for really short/urgent things. Apparently my inner critic has followed my muse into retirement -- I hope they come back soon.)
#4 I don't know about anyone else, but I've gotten tired of making it so patently clear that I have no clue!
#5 SOME people (I'm not naming any names here) do brilliant critiques and then don't guess anyone!
Oh, and it's very een-teh-resting that you have twice now been the one to jump-start this thread, saxy.
I guess saxon75.
[ January 08, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No. And I think I've figured out the points. I'll post new rules and update the score tomorrow.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I agree that this sounds like a young female. I also agree with every critique that has been made up to this point.
I also have a request for dkw: You usually put these up first thing in the morning, when I'm at work. By the time I get off work and can post, either somebody's guessed it already, or so many people have tried that they've used up all my guesses. Oh, and about six people have critiqued, so there's nothing left to say.
I know lots of people work, so maybe I should just grin and bear it, but could you maybe start these threads in the evenings so I can have a chance to participate?
That's it. I guess . . . uh, Dragon.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Not Dragon, and I'll try to alternate mornings and evenings from now on.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In my case, there are just too many people to guess from -- even now. It's shooting in the dark, especially when dealing with writing samples that have been deliberately obfuscated and/or are from posters who don't give us long samples of their writing here.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Since the object of the game is to guess writers based on their writing styles, it seems unfair of some to chose to deliberately try to throw us off by writing the complete opposite of how they normally would. And it also make whatever critiques people take the time to write (and some, a lot of time, i'm sure) completely useless, since the author's themselves don't normally write that way.
Are a lot of these submissions tricks, dkw?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Fine. I pruned the guess from list again.
Anything else I can do for anyone?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Yes. Get me into heaven, please. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Leonide, I don't think many of them are tricks. I know some people have chosen older pieces, or first drafts, but I don't know of anyone writing anything deliberately to throw guessing off.
edit: not that I'd put it past a few people, but I don't their writing styles well enought to judge.
[ January 09, 2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Mac, your invitation is in the mail.
Oh, wait a minute . . . Is this heaven? No, it's Iowa.
Sorry about that.
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
I only really have two complaints about this. First, it feels really choppy to me. The sentences don't seem to flow together very well. I'd like to offer advice on how to fix this, but unfortunately I'm not much of a writer myself. Second, the thoughts that Paul is having really bother me, especially in that last paragraph. No one thinks that way! I'll go with Gottmorder.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Iowa works too. Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
I'm trying to figure out how anyone could get Iowa mixed up with Heaven...
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Dead baseball players, big cornfields . . .who can tell?
Not Gottmorder.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
dana, start building!
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
I don't recognise the writing style, and I won't rule out that this is written by a man. However, there are no car crashes or excessive violence so I'll go with Tom's line of guessing and consider young, female authors. Since both have names that I somewhat associate with the subject matter of the piece, I'm hesitating between BelladonnaOrchid and Sarahdipity.
BelladonnaOrchid.
[ January 09, 2004, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I'm going to guess mac. Maybe one of her earlier works. The person is a good plot editor, and a slightly sloppy writer, kind of like me or mac when she was 19. The transitions aren't as smooth as they could be. The leap from butterflies to insanity should be shown easier. I'd describe the room, so that the reader makes the connection and realizes that he is talking about women instead of butterflies, or at least the reader realizes that something is wrong, before the protagonist just blurts out that he is losing it.
The best part about this piece is that nothing is boring. It keeps moving, and has some sort of logical flow that I like. I don't get the feeling of ramble ramble which is prevalent in young writers. I like this writer. How's about eslaine, or Dan-Raven
[ January 09, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Not mac.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I couldn't slip three guesses in under the radar? Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I have very good radar.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
bumpity
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
It has a very spunky atttitude. Very comedic. I don't think that this is necessarily a man, though.
How about BannaOJ?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
It ends on an interesting note. I would like to read more. I agree this is probably a female author, but only because of the butterflies.
There's a problem with verb tense. I'll probably get this wrong but you use past tense "They were beautiful" to describe present action.
Less of a problem is when he thinks "If I was sane" but I think some grammarian here can explain what tense that is and whether or not it is correct. I think it isn't but I don't know why, really. It's not past tense, per se, probably one of those plu-perfect subjunctive indefinites... or whatever...
Anyway, I'll guess JaneX
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Technically, since he seems not to be sane , it should be "If I were sane." The subjunctive mood is your friend!
OTOH, so few people use the subjunctive properly, and this is (internal) dialogue, so making it correct might lose in favor of making it sound like everyday speech?
And I guess . . . celia, because no one else has. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
As was said earlier, people don't think so clearly to themselves. To me, the author is using Paul's thoughts too transparently. Paul wouldn't necessarily be conscious of the need to fill out the story with play-by-play, as in "If I was sane, I'd panic about now. Instead I'm enoying the show. I'm accepting...." I can see how Paul might be recognizing that he's going insane and talking to himself to keep a handle on things, but so far it's not very convincing.
I'm going to guess, er, Nick.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No, no, and no.
I kind of expected Irami to guess again.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Actually, I was expecting me to guess too.
Oh, I guess I will.
I would definately like to see where the story goes from here. The grammar is atrocious. The writer should probably go back to fifth grade and learn their tenses.
I don't think its a young girl, so I will guess Bob Scopatz (though there are times he does remind me of a young girl.)
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
I assume all guesses, not just three were wrong, so...
I disagree with what was said about internal dialog. I think that a running narrative is very close to the way that some characters think.
Annie, because I haven't guessed that fine lady yet.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Based on dkw's comment that she expected Irami to guess again, and based on the fact that I don't know eslaine's writing style well, and based on the fact that eslaine is throwing random, obviously wrong guesses into the air (Annie couldn't possibly have written this), I guess
eslaine.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Dang. I'm going to hop on Brinestone's bandwagon here and second the guess for eslaine.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Huh? ::goes back and counts guesses::
Yeah, all four of the last round were wrong.
As are the ::counts twice:: three since then.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I guess Jon Boy, trying to drag red herrings down our path.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I went back and scanned the thread three times trying to figure out where you thought Jon Boy was dragging red herrings before I realized you meant in the sample.
It's not him.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I've compiled a list of people I've ruled out, either because they've been guessed or because they couldn't possibly have written this sample (at least in my opinion). The people on this list are:
afr, Annie, Banna OJ, BelladonnaOrchid, Bob_Scopatz, celia, Chris Bridges, Dan_raven, Dante, Dragon, Icarus, Noemon, Ryuko, Locke, Pixie, saxon75, Gottmorder, mackillian, JaneX, Nick, Irami, Jenny Gardener, Jon Boy, katharina, Papa Moose, ScottR, Strider, Troubador (the last three are still possibilities, but unlikely ones), TomDavidson, eslaine, T_Smith, beatnix, Leonide, Christy, dkw, Brinestone, scythrop, rivka.
Which leaves:
Ethics Gradient, imogen, Jaiden, jeniwren, ludosti, sarahdipity, sopwith, sndrake, Teshi, Tresopax, Tristan, and twinky. I don't think twinky wrote this, but I may be wrong.
I do think, though, that this piece is just off-the-wall enough to belong to T_Smith.
Edited to update.
[ January 12, 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Brinestone ]
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Yeah, but because Annie does not write like that, I thought I would guess her:
A: Because she's intellegent and devious.
B: This eliminates her from the list!
Edit: Besides, what's so new about me guessing randomly? I am flattered, though, that such an entertaining piece could be attributed to me!
[ January 12, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: eslaine ]
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
eslaine is still so in shock from my last entry that he now only guesses who he doesnt' think it is.
you're don't list looks a lot like mine, brinstone, but mine also had jeniwren, because she wouldn't have had the tense problems and t, because he doesn't think he's good enough to attempt something like this. (he is, but don't try to tell him that)
i'll guess leonide
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Without implying any comment on the accuracy of your lists, I’m curious as to what the difference is between “possible but not likely” on your “no” list and “I don’t think so, but I may be wrong” on your “yes” list. In other words, how did you decide which of those maybes went on which list?
Oh, and not T-smith.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
And not leonide.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Thank you for including me on the Couldn't Possibly list, as I have not been guessed, but couldn't possibly have written this. Not my style at all.
Based on Brinestone's list and not much else, I am going to guess beatnix.
Question for dkw: If someone submitted a snippet but hasn't posted here in a long time, will you still run the snippet? I haven't seen some of these names for a while, and that always makes me hesitant to guess them.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I guess Scythrop, mostly because I can't rule him out. He doesn't post enough. Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Um, basically, the "maybes" on the no list are people I'm mostly confident didn't write it, but who might have written it five years ago and I just didn't know them then.
The "maybes" on the yes list are people that I don't know enough about to form a conclusive opinion on, but who don't really strike me as the sort of person who would write this.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Hmm. Good question. I think I will run all the snippets, because I don’t always read all the threads on Hatrack, and I’d hate to bump somebody from the game just because we frequent different threads.
But, at the risk of giving more hints, this writer would have been in no danger of being bumped.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:I disagree with what was said about internal dialog. I think that a running narrative is very close to the way that some characters think.
I'm a little confused about what you mean here, Erik. Typically, "narrative" is the word used to describe that part of a story that isn't "scene." But "running narrative" to me sounds like close POV: incorporating the internal monologue into the prose. But I'm going to assume that what you mean is that it's OK to do a character's thoughts as "dialogue." Which is true. My gripe with it is that I don't think anyone looks at a butterfly and says, "They were beautiful." They'd say, "They are beautiful." It's the verb tense that's the problem, not the structure.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
I'm starting to seriously consider rivka. She's fitting all the clues I know of so far.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Except the very most obvious clue.
It's not rivka.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
This may get me killed, but I'm going to guess my own wife, mainly because she likes faeries -- especially butterfly-winged ones -- and sometimes has trouble juggling tenses in her writing. That aside, it sounds nothing like her normal stuff, but anyway.... Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Dana, you never said whether beatnix or Scythrop were correct guesses.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I think that this is a blind, something written by a person who writes very very well, but put this flawed piece in here just to confuse us. I think its brilliance in a shabby disguise just to throw us off.
You didn't think I'd do it, did you--DKW. (That's my guess)
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Not beatnix or Scythrop. Or Christy. Or me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Brinestone has posted a LOT in this thread -- not necessarily meaningful, but interesting.
Her own name appeared on NEITHER list. She could not rule out herself??
Thusly, I guess Brinestone.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Rivka got to it first - Brinestone didn't rule out herself, which makes me suspicious. In fact, the mere fact that she made a list this time and no other makes me suspicious.
[ January 12, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No.
Posted by Julie (Member # 5580) on :
I haven't been in here in a while. I'm not really in a critique-ie mood these days (I just had to edit someone else's paper for my Shakespeare class and it wasn't the best experience). I didn't read the whole thread since after a while people just start repeating each other, but am I the only one who doesn't think it completely odd that a character would narate to him/herself in the past tense as something is happening? Because I do that every so often. Or maybe I'm just going insane! Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
The reason I posted so much today was because it was bugging me that it seemed people had kind of given up on the excerpt and dkw just kept bumping it, so I decided to get it going again.
Also, I haven't had any real work to do at work for over a week now. I was going crazy reading The Chicago Manual of Style and training manuals for jobs I don't do yet, so I was wasting some time on this.
I didn't put myself on the list because it would give my guilt or innocence away either way.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
[Edit: that's not directed AT anyone, just general frustration ]
[ January 12, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I have decided that for the first 4 days or so of each round I am going to let you guess solely based on critique of the work. After that, I'll quit trying to be objective and impartial and start dropping blatant hints.
Although the fact that no one has got this one makes me wonder if hitting you all over the heads with boards would still be too subtle.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Apparently this one is obvious and we're being dense. *sigh* Oh, good, I don't feel frustrated NOW . . .
Was Dan_Raven actually "no"ed or ever legally guessed?
Doesn't look like it; DOES look like both dkw and Dan were hinting!
Well then, how about Dan_Raven?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Ding ding ding ding!
Okay, maybe that last post was over the top, but I really thought this round was over after Irami's guess.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
REALLY? Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I almost posted "DKW you should give a hint. Or the Author. (Or maybe the Author has?)" but thought that would be a give away.
Yes, this was a very rough draft that I should have edited several times before turning in. But, hey, everthing I wanted to send in was too big, and didn't sound right chopped to a few paragraphs.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Dan, I think you may have that Gutsiest Self-Critique award locked for the second season in a row.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Hiding hints in plain sight. *giggle* Nice. And I had noticed, but thought y'all were just being cute. And somehow HADN'T realized that Dan never got properly guessed.
dkw, at least your comment made me say, what?? What did I miss? And start making a list of already guessed people . . . which led me to being confused as to whether Dan had actually been guessed or not.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)