I recently had several dining and movie experiences completely ruined by children. Actually, they were ruined by the parents of these children, who didn’t care that they have failed to teach their offspring how to act in public. I’ve had enough.
I would pay more for movies if there were guaranteed to be no children under 14. It would be worth it to me. I am sick of people bringing their infants and toddlers to rated R movies. There was an infant in Return of the King who cried over my favorite scene. There was a toddler in Master and Commander who (understandably) would not keep quiet and who became hysterical during some of the more violent scenes.
I would also gladly pay more for entrees if I could eat in peace, without children racing up and down the dining room, screaming, and bumping into the waitstaff. Andrew and I are soft-spoken people and it’s frustrating when we have to shout to hear each other. Restaurants in New York have started putting “No Strollers” signs in their windows as a first step toward child-free dining. I just want to have a quiet meal with my husband.
Am I alone in this?
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
As one of the founding members of the Birth Control In The Water PAC, I'd have to say "no."
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
I definitely agree with the movie thing. I saw toddlers (old enough to remember images but not to understand them) at The Patriot. I was appalled, and I don't even have kids. And I agree that it's the parents that have failed, but then again, have you noticed how some adults act in public?
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
They do have them. Theaters, anyway, that serve alcohol and food. Some of them even have childcare.
Ron and I were thinking we'd like to have one around here. The usual thing is that the childcare costs the price of a ticket, so numbskulls who think it's a good idea to take thier wee ones to see The Cell, or Bad Santa (just because they want to, and don't want to hire a sitter) can just park 'em with other kids. The ones I've heard of have lojack bracelets that will vibrate if the parent is needed.
Seems like a great idea to me.
THAT said, I have children, and I have taken them out to eat. Just tonight, we were at a very nice Italian restaurant with our 4 year old and six year old. The only trouble we had was that the youngest tended to speak loudly at first (trying to make himself heard over his brother, or whatever) but he settled down when we told him to. This is a new development, really, but in the past if one of them got bad, we took that one out until he could behave. We also tend to go to kid-friendly places most of the time-- places that are already noisy like a neighborhood sportsbar and grill, or places with a playground.
We've had people come up to us and comment about how good the boys are. Once, when we had been seated next to a man (we had not even taken off our coats) he asked the waitress (who was also the owner) if he could have a table that wasn't right next to a bunch of f-ing kids. She actually asked him to leave, and appologized to us.
My point is that even the best of kids have an off day, and mostly parents try to be considerate of others. But part of getting kids to behave in public requires that we take them out in public in the first place.
I am reminded of a couple of our friends who had dogs. They called them "The boys" and even wrote their names on the 'family ' Christmas cards, and took them to get doggy sundaes on their birthdays. They used to comment about how wild our boys were. Then they had kids, who incidentally make our look comatose by comparison. Suddenly, the dogs don't sign the Christmas cards anymore, and we look like good parents to them now.
I know some parents are inconsiderate, but not all of us are. And you may find yourself being a bit more sympathetic if you ever have kids of your own. I know it was one heck of a pardigm shift for me.
[ January 28, 2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Olivet ]
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
quote: And you may find yourself being a bit more sympathetic if you ever have kids of your own.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I'll apologize anyway. I didn't mean to imply that all parents are incompetent. I don't have kids of my own, but I have a whole crew of nieces and nephews. I realize that younger children go through phases and whatnot and that a majority of parents are doing the best they can. On the flip side, I have also witnessed adults, parents or otherwise, who truly do not know how to behave in public, and it's towards these people that I direct my animosity. I think the point I was trying to make was that kids can only behave as well as their parents teach them to.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
To quote a friend of mine whose toddler was screaming on an airplane, and was asked, "Lady, can't you control your kid?!"
"No. Would you like to try?"
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
One of the side benefits of being somewhat lost in your own world is that I never, ever notice that kind of thing. I couldn't even tell if it happens around me or not.
I did notice a little girl in the grocery store the other day, but that's because she came up and started hugging my legs and grinning at me. Very cute. Good taste, too. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You tasted her???
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
My first two kids were perfect angels who sat very still and never gave us a problem. The next one came along and she gave us mild problems, a few tantrums here and there.
My last, Dustin is a complete and utter terror. He's a rotten monster, he makes any venture outside an adventure. I never thought I'd be one of those parents who couldn't control his kids.
I guess my point is to agree with Olivia. It's not like we enjoy having our children act out, but for the most part, there's another side of the story.
For our part, we choose to not take Dustin to movies, and only rarely to restuarants. But on the other hand, I can tell you that it's just as rude to look at parents with a digusted look of 'Can't you control your child?' as it is for a child to run up and down restuarant aisles.
In my opinion, both sides could benefit from a little growing up.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:My point is that even the best of kids have an off day, and mostly parents try to be considerate of others.
quote:I know some parents are inconsiderate, but not all of us are.
I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree. I think that many parents are NOT considerate when it comes to how their childrens' behavior affects others in public. It's gotten to the point where Andrew and I avoid family restaurants and go to the latest showings of movies that we can. Or we go to movies during school hours. Do you know how much macaroni and chicken fingers I swept up when I was a waitress? Way, way to much.
Olivet, I think that you are one of the few exceptions, bless your heart. I think that Hatrack parents, especially those who have participated in this thread, are also exceptions. Look, I had a strict, Southern upbringing. If we made one peep in a restaurant, we were out of there. We were in the car until everyone else was finished eating. So we learned to keep quiet in restaurants. No one would ever think of bringing children to R movies (or some of the racier PG13 or PG ones), so that wasn't an issue. We did sit quietly through the movies we were allowed to see. If we didn't, then the adults figured that we weren't ready to be taken to movies.
quote:And you may find yourself being a bit more sympathetic if you ever have kids of your own.
No ma'am. Andrew and I have agreed that we will never, ever bring our children to inappropriate movies or let them cry or fuss or yell and run in restaurants or other public places. If they have a bad day or have behavior problems, we will just stay home. For us, that's just one of the sacrifices that we have to make to be parents.
It's not that I don't like children. I do. I work with children every day because I enjoy it. I have a very large extended family and have taken care of dozens of children in my life. But when I come home from working with the aforementioned children, I want quiet adult time with my husband. Aren't there times when you want that, too? What's the point of leaving your children at home with a babysitter and going to a restaurant with screaming children running around?
I don't want family restaurants to stop admitting children; I just want one or two restaurants to be child-free.
Edit to clarify my position.
[ January 30, 2004, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Mrs.M ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Trogdor, my dad tells the story of me being two years old, not getting my way in something, and throwing myself to the ground, yelling and bawling as loud as I could.
Which would be annoying, but managable, except we were crossing the street and in the middle of a crosswalk. When I was picked up and bodily carried, I started crying more softly but more sincerely, and sobbed out, "Why are you so mad at me?"
Heh heh. *makes motions to ward off karma*
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:To quote a friend of mine whose toddler was screaming on an airplane, and was asked, "Lady, can't you control your kid?!"
"No. Would you like to try?"
I take kids who are behaviorally challenged out into the community every day.
Bring it on!
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Well said Trogdor.
edit again:wait a minute, mackillian too!
[ January 29, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: eslaine ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
It reminds me of an idea my husband had, of a theater where all the movies start at 8 or after. Of course, I think it there were such a thing, he would find he needed one where they start after 8:30. And so on.
Other things that Adults do that bother me- I've kind of covered arriving late. Sitting in the middle of an when you know you will have to go to the bathroom halfway through.
Kids in the R rated movie is a tricky thing. I refuse to take a kid to a movie unless my husband assumes responsibility for the child or it is animated (for children, I never saw Osmosis Jones). I had an awful experience once before I had kids of going with friends of mine and some idiot screamed back at us. It was the dollar movie. But as I know now, he may have been saving up for weeks.
I also threw a candy box at some lady talking during Contact. That was a fairly low point in my life as a social organism.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:But on the other hand, I can tell you that it's just as rude to look at parents with a digusted look of 'Can't you control your child?' as it is for a child to run up and down restuarant aisles.
Do you really think so? What do you think the appropriate reaction is? Frankly, I think that a pointed look is the only polite thing to do.
When a child runs around in a restaurant it is dangerous. People are carrying trays with hot food and heavy, breakable dishes. If the child bumps into a server, they could cause people to be seriously injured. I've had several waitressing jobs and I've seen a lot of near misses and a couple of accidents.
If you allow your children to run around where food is being served, you are endangering them and others. It's not just a matter of inconvenience.
Here's how I handled it when I was waitressing. I would stop and say to the child in a loud voice, "Are you lost?" The parents would usually say something like, "No, he's with us." Then I would smile and say in a friendly manner, with no sarcasm, "Do you mind keeping him with you? There's so many people walking around with hot plates and we would hate for him to get hurt. [to child] Why don't I bring you some more crayons and you can draw me a picture?"
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
The thing is, having children is a sacrifice. And not in the pejorative sense, either. "You love that for which you sacrifice" is an iron-clad law of life. But my quarrel is with parents who want to have their cake and eat it too, who want other people (read:complete strangers) to subsidize their sacrifice. They can't bear to be without movies but don't want to pay for a sitter and don't have the common courtesy to seek alternatives to ruining your experience.
p.s. Mrs. M and I must have been in the same theater because a baby cried the whole second half of ROTK. I mean, cried . There was no taking him/her out, no bottle, no attempts at soothing because, heaven forbid the parent should miss a scene or NOT HEAR what's said. sheesh. Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Theaters that serve beer are the greatest invention in the history of the world. First, you GET BEER while you watch the movie. And, as if that wasn't great enough, there aren't any kids in the theater.
It's bliss.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
quote: Here's how I handled it when I was waitressing. I would stop and say to the child in a loud voice, "Are you lost?" The parents would usually say something like, "No, he's with us." Then I would smile and say in a friendly manner, with no sarcasm, "Do you mind keeping him with you? There's so many people walking around with hot plates and we would hate for him to get hurt. [to child] Why don't I bring you some more crayons and you can draw me a picture?"
And I'd say, as politely as possible...."Spare me lady, he's tired, he hasn't had a nap and we've been driving for 8 hours straight. I'll do my best to control him, but how bout you mind your own business, toots. "
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
quote: how bout you mind your own business, toots. "
How ironic. I thought that's what a waitress making that comment would be doing.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Parents, all I'm asking for is 1 or 2 restaurants and 1 child-free showing per day. How does that affect you at all? If anything, it benefits you - you have someplace to go for adult time.
And, for the most part, I ignore tantrums and fussing. I will only give a look when I can no longer hear myself speak or when I am bumped into and do not get an apology from the child.
I just don't want to have to sit through Kill Bill vol.2 wondering if I should notify CFS that there is a four-year-old in the theater shrieking her head off the way I did during Kill Bill vol.1. And I don't want to see the same child when I go to a relatively pricey restaurant afterwards (Andrew and I have the worst luck).
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
There's a time and place for everything. Yeah, the tendency in general has been for parents to become more and more lax in controlling children -- that's what they've been trained to do nowadays. You can't say no to your children any more. You can't spank any more. You can't, you can't, you can't.
It's possible to parent, and parent well, without doing any of those things. But it takes time and attention. Since there's such a (seeming to me at least -- I don't have data) preponderance of two-income families, the parents aren't left with the energy to give that attention.
The flip side is that the parents who attempt often get little or no credit. Yeah, if kids are running around a restaurant, there may well be an issue. But if they're being loud, there's not always anything a parent can reasonably do. Again, though, there's a time and a place. If I'm going with my wife to a five-star restaurant, we're not taking the kids. But if someone wants to complain that my kids are too loud and we're at Denny's, chances are they can just suck my chocolate.
(I heard that phrase in the dream thread and plan on using it all the frequin' time.)
--Pop
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
A waitress making that little remark would be patronizing my child, and as a fairly protective father, I'd have to object.
Listen guys, I agree with everything you've said. I never let my kids run up and down aisles when we're at restuarants. I would also object to people bringing kids to rated R movies.
My point is that it's rude for you to be rude back even if you don't think you're rude. You don't know what is going on in their lives to make judgement calls. Just learn to ignore it and move on.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:And I'd say, as politely as possible...."Spare me lady, he's tired, he hasn't had a nap and we've been driving for 8 hours straight. I'll do my best to control him, but how bout you mind your own business, toots. "
Would you really or are you being sarcastic? I honestly can't tell.
Do you not care that he could get hurt or hurt other people?
It's my business if he bumps into me while I'm carrying a heavy tray of piping hot food. It's my business if he bumps into other customers and causes them to be hurt. Are you willing to pay my medical bills and lost wages? How about those of the people I spill the food on?
I realize that children act out when they're tired, but it's unreasonable and irresponsible to let them harm themselves or others.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:A waitress making that little remark would be patronizing my child
Actually, I'd be patronizing you. I don't understand how you would that as patronizing your child. I always ask children to draw pictures for me. I would bring home tons of crayon masterpieces after my shifts. What I would be doing was redirecting your child and giving them a project to focus on. Since I have studied child development, I can assure that this is an effective child-management technique.
quote:My point is that it's rude for you to be rude back even if you don't think you're rude.
My technique isn't rude. I'm NEVER rude. It is pointed, but polite. If a child is running unsupervised through a restaurant where I am working, then there is a dangerous situation in my place of work. As an employee, it is my duty to remedy that situation. What would you have me do? And I might add that in most cases where children race around, their parents are totally oblivious. If a parent was trying to control an unruly child, I would usually give a sympathetic smile and ask if they wanted crayons.
quote:You don't know what is going on in their lives to make judgement calls. Just learn to ignore it and move on.
I guess this is where we disagree. I don't think that there is ever an excuse for bad manners or inappropriate behavior from children or adults. Why should I learn to ignore it? Why shouldn't the child learn to behave? My mother made me say please ma'am and thank you sir to doctors and nurses when I was sick. I wasn't allowed to melt down or flip out when I was angry or moody. She wouldn't tolerate anything less than perfect manners at all times. Now, no matter how I feel, I am always polite and considerate of others and it has helped me immensely in my adult life. Children need to learn how to control themselves so that they can do so when they are adults and faced with much greater frustrations and diffculties.
Posted by Pat (Member # 879) on :
quote: Actually, I'd be patronizing you. I don't understand how you would that as patronizing your child. I always ask children to draw pictures for me. I would bring home tons of crayon masterpieces after my shifts. What I would be doing was redirecting your child and giving them a project to focus on. Since I have studied child development, I can assure that this is an effective child-management technique.
And I would say, it's none of your business to redirect ANYONE'S child to do ANYTHING. you have a problem with my child, then tell ME about it. What you're telling the offending parent is this -- "I can see you are a horrible parent, so let me come in and show you how it's done."
And the fact that you have studied child development means diddly squat to me and how I choose to bring up my child.
quote: My technique isn't rude. I'm NEVER rude. It is pointed, but polite.
Can you be pointed, but polite in a tense situation for a parent who might be on the verge of tears because of the stressful day they've had?
quote: I guess this is where we disagree. I don't think that there is ever an excuse for bad manners or inappropriate behavior from children or adults. Why should I learn to ignore it? Why shouldn't the child learn to behave? My mother made me say please ma'am and thank you sir to doctors and nurses when I was sick. I wasn't allowed to melt down or flip out when I was angry or moody. She wouldn't tolerate anything less than perfect manners at all times. Now, no matter how I feel, I am always polite and considerate of others and it has helped me immensely in my adult life. Children need to learn how to control themselves so that they can do so when they are adults and faced with much greater frustrations and diffculties.
So, we all need to be like you? The only way to a blissful adult life like yours is to be raised exactly like you?
Listen to yourself, Mrs. M. You kind of sound like the kind of kids you're railing on.
Again, my point is not that I think you're wrong, it's that I think your technique is very tacky and quite honestly, niave.
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
A better technique for the situation, then, would be? What, exactly?
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
quote:tell me about it
Hmmmm...
Maybe you shouldn't say that, Pat.
If I am around an irritating kid, I won't say anything, I'll just give him ugly looks. I don't have it in me to be mean to little kids.
But, dragging some irritating kids DAD outside to stand on him for a while might be okay...
[ January 29, 2004, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Slash the Berzerker ]
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
I feel the problem is, no matter what course of action a 'stranger' takes, the parents will get offended.
1. Talk to the kid. Offensive because you're not talking to Me, the Parent.
2. Talk to the parent. Offensive because you're implying I'm a bad Parent.
3. Ignore It pointedly. Offensive because you don't care about my kid getting hurt, or I can feel the Condescension.
4. Glare/Look pointedly. Offensive because they don't know where I'm coming from.
----
Look at this honestly. You parents will find it offensive no matter what. But does it have to be? We're discussing public places, here. The parent ultimately has responsibility for their child's actions, and MUST be willing to accept the outcome, be it upset patrons or a hurt child through carelessness.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I'm used to having little kids around me. What I can't stand, though, is when preteen girls give us a full audio commentary about the cometology of Frodo in every frickin' scene.
At least that only happened at my second viewing. I feel sorry for my friend, though, who was seeing it for the first time...
Anyway, they've had adult-only theatres and adult-only restaraunts for years. One is called 'porn', and the other is called a 'bar'.
Actually, I think I'd have a problem with adult-only theatres or restaraunts, particularly if the theatre happened to be playing good movies or the restaraunt was serving good food. Having adult-only screenings or adult-only sections (like smoking/nonsmoking) might not be such a bad idea, though.
[ January 29, 2004, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:And I would say, it's none of your business to redirect ANYONE'S child to do ANYTHING. you have a problem with my child, then tell ME about it. What you're telling the offending parent is this -- "I can see you are a horrible parent, so let me come in and show you how it's done."
Pat, I think that you should go back and read about the situation I was referring to. If your child puts me or others in physical danger and you ignore it, then I have every right to redirect him. If there wasn't a possibility of bodily harm, I would ignore the misbehavior.
quote:And the fact that you have studied child development means diddly squat to me and how I choose to bring up my child.
Nor do I expect it to. I was simply mentioning redirection to illustrate that although I am not a parent myself, I am familiar with child-rearing and mamagement techniques.
quote:Can you be pointed, but polite in a tense situation for a parent who might be on the verge of tears because of the stressful day they've had?
I certainly can and was. However, can the parent take into account that waitressing is also stressful and that having to look out for a small child while carrying hot food and breakable dishes adds to the stress? As I said...
quote:in most cases where children race around, their parents are totally oblivious. If a parent was trying to control an unruly child, I would usually give a sympathetic smile and ask if they wanted crayons.
I also kept a couple of little toys in my locker to be brought out in extreme situations.
quote:So, we all need to be like you? The only way to a blissful adult life like yours is to be raised exactly like you?
If I gave the impression that I think that every child should be raised like I was, then let me clarify that right now. I don't. Nor do I feel that the only for a child do have a happy adult life it to be raised so. However, it has helped me in both my personal and professional life.
quote:Listen to yourself, Mrs. M. You kind of sound like the kind of kids you're railing on.
First, I've actually been referring mostly to parents in my posts. Second, I don't really understand what you mean.
quote:Again, my point is not that I think you're wrong, it's that I think your technique is very tacky and quite honestly, niave.
Tacky is a very strong and ugly word to use and you haven't explained how my method of dealing with dangerously unruly children in restaurants is tacky. You also haven't given me an alternative besides ignoring it, which legally and morally I could not do.
As to any naiveté, I disagree. It invariably worked with no hard feelings (which would have been expressed through my tip or lack thereof). In fact, those people tended to tip the most.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
If you dont want to be around kids in restaurants, don't go to family restaurants.
There's a big difference between Ruth's Chris and Applebee's. I expect there to be kids making noise and walking around in Applebee's, it's a restaurant that caters to parents with children. If I go to a high scale restaurant, then perhaps I might notice a child making a fuss, but I would never say anything and I would never, ever judge - because I've been in that parent's shoes.
I am reminded of the time I met Olivia in an Applebee's and my son took off running and I had to chase him down.
Mrs. M, I've got to take a little issue with this comment directed to my friend:
quote: No ma'am. Andrew and I have agreed that we will never, ever bring our children to inappropriate movies or let them cry or fuss or yell and run in restaurants or other public places. If they have a bad day or have behavior problems, we will just stay home. For us, that's just one of the sacrifices that we have to make to be parents.
Are you willing to stay home every day of your life after you have children? Because that is the only way you can assure that you wont' be going out when your child has a bad day or behavior problems.
A lot of the times you dont know. A toddler is not a particularly predictable creature. And what about times when you cannot just "stay home?" What about if you're on the road and it's eight o-clock and you've been driving for hours because a family member has passed away and you're trying to get to the funeral but your kids don't understand that, they only know they're hungry and tired and cranky and so they are restless and maybe even a little loud in the restaurant.... Do you see my point at all?
You are taking the position that every parent with an unruly child is inconsiderate at best and a bad parent at worst. They may be neither of those things but just someone doing the best they can in a tough situation. A situation you cannot possibly understand.
You remind me of so many people who say "When I'm a parent I will do this and won't do that" with such confidence and then comes to me after they actually have kids and say "I'm so sorry - I had no idea what it was really like."
I was the first among my circle of friends to have kids, so I've seen that scenario play out more than once. I don't care how much or how long you work with kids, (one of my friends was a kindergarten teacher) it doesn't even come close to being a parent. Because if it's your job you can go home at night and leave it behind you. You aren't doing the 2 am feedings of infant twins and then getting up at 6:00 with a 2 year old toddler. Unless you live it 24 hours a day, it's just not the same.
I'm trying to be understanding here, but this is a hot button issue for me. I am considering ministry work with mothers of young kids, and I have been doing a lot of outreach in the area.
I have gone up to women I didn't know and talked to them and had them break down and cry when I did nothing more than ask them if they were doing okay and could I help them in any way. You have no idea how very hard it is to be a mother of toddlers. NO idea what it is to bear the brunt of that responsibility day in and day out. The average mom of toddlers has sleep depravation, money problems (especially if she has quit working to be a stay-at-home Mom), and a very high level of day-to-day stress that she can't escape.
The last woman I sat with and prayed with was trying to juggle being a Mom of three, a bookeeper for her husband's business (she did all the work at night after the kids went to bed, usually getting to bed herself at 2:00 am), and the primary caregiver of her Alzheimer's afflicted mother.
I'm not saying, Mrs. M or Slash or anyone else that it's wrong for you to wish for kid-free places. I went out to a comedy club with my husband and enjoyed it - and you aren't allowed in unless you're eighteen and over. There is a place for that type of adult setting.
What I'm taking issue with is you seeming to pass judgment on parents as a group. (Come on, you think Olivia is a lone exception? You think she's the only mother in the world that cares about her kid's behavior in public?)
The vast majority of us care very much about how our children behave, and we want very much for them to sit down and be quiet and act like perfect angels but sometimes it just doesn't happen.
A little compassion would go a long way in those circumstances. Why not try it next time, instead of immediately making disparaging judgments about the parents?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Here's how I handled it when I was waitressing. I would stop and say to the child in a loud voice, "Are you lost?" The parents would usually say something like, "No, he's with us." Then I would smile and say in a friendly manner, with no sarcasm, "Do you mind keeping him with you? There's so many people walking around with hot plates and we would hate for him to get hurt. [to child] Why don't I bring you some more crayons and you can draw me a picture?"
Um... I honestly don't see anything wrong with Mrs. M's approach. She's the waitress, you and your kids are in her domain. She is acting not only for her own safety and he safety of her other patrons, but also the safety of the child.
Edited to add: I'm not saying people with toddlers should stay home. But when you take your kids out in the public, you cannot get mad at people who are simply trying to do their jobs. You have a right to bring Jr. to the restaurant, but Mrs. M has a right to wait on tables without fearing that she will get hurt, or worse, get slapped with a fat lawsuit for spilling soup on your child.
[ January 29, 2004, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
And let me add that restaurants and movie theaters are two different things.
Posted by jana at jade house (Member # 6101) on :
This thread is amusing only because I live in the Netherlands now, where the internationally famous rude and distruptive Dutch children live. I was brought up in the genteel and etiquette driven manner that Mrs.M describes. You ain't seen nothin'in public or private like Dutch children.
Although I do understand family emergencies which have sometimes unthinkable consequences I thought this was provoking comment:
quote:And I'd say, as politely as possible...."Spare me lady, he's tired, he hasn't had a nap and we've been driving for 8 hours straight. I'll do my best to control him, but how bout you mind your own business, toots. "
If you have been driving 8 hours straight, that is abuse and neglect of your child. I will not back down on that. Even as a single mother, I knew to stop, feed and water, and exercise my brood. A dead person has all sorts of patience, they can wait another hour. A sick person does not need you overtired, cooped up energy, stressed out family either. Bad excuse. If you are driving like that you are putting your own family at risk for traffic deaths...
If my children have to be excused from the table, they go with one of us outside to run areound the car park 10 times, not up and down the aisles. No food on the floor, lowered voices, and all of it, even from our behaviorally challenged son.
My nursing babies came to the movies with me, true but they ate and slept. If you are too poor for a sitter when they can stay home, wait and rent the video. Exposing a toddler to violent big screen action is abuse and neglect.
Children need order, routine, and safety. Some of you have such a negative knee jerk reaction. Who is in charge of your family? Parenting *means* giving up a singles life style which includes setting aside some social activities, or cutting back. Kids do not do well in adult social situations, period.
I have a child right now that requires a great deal of stamina to guide up in the way he should go. Hubby and I have (too seldom) time for a date night. When we are out, I do *not* want to be surrounded by other people's unruly children.
All in all I have to agree with Mrs. M. Jana
Posted by K.A.M.A. (Member # 6045) on :
Yay, Belle.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
i, too, have been a waitress at a restaurant that was frequented by families with small children.
i have to agree with mrs. m on the running child scenario, and other variations thereof.
i have done exactly what mrs. m described doing, and you know what? none of the parents were ever pissed or offended, they were GRATEFUL that i cared enough to try to help their child remain safe and/or calm down so everyone, parents and other guests included, could enjoy their meal. and not end up in the ER.
i can't stand when people are impatient with other people's children, but i also can't stand when parent's ignore their own children. it's okay to say "it depends" with these situations and take a middle ground.
in my opinion.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Whenever I wait on tables with parents who don't keep their kids from running underneath my feet while I'm carrying hot food, I always make sure to put a little extra grenadine in the Shirley Temples (more accurately, a little sprite in their grenadine) so the parents can have some fun, too, when they get home.
And I expect the same when I have kids...because I have no doubt they'll be hellions of the highest order.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Not to be rude Rohan, but what point are you trying to make by pointing out an already well-known distinction?
I'm not a parent yet (thank God for that ), so I can't really sympathize with the parents here. Bringing children into restaurants is fine, but letting them create hazardous situation for many possible victims of injury is absolutely unacceptable, and should be prevented no matter how rude the waiter/waitress has to be to bring about a safer situation.
So Pat (or any other parent for that matter), I never heard you answer the question: What would do if the child was dangerously running around a restaurant like MrsM described? Could you do anything without being considered rude? I doubt it.
MrsM: What would you do if you were on the way home from a road trip, you have been driving for the past couple of hours, and your kids needed to eat ect? Would you leave them in the car? You did share your experience from your upbringing, but leaving kids in the car nowadays would possibly get a call to the police. It could arguably be child endangerment.
Those two questions both don't have an easy answer, just like this subject. Is there a way to control your children in a restaurant in modern society? For a determined child? It's very difficult.
Is it possible to leave your children somewhere (home, sitter ect) when going to a restaurant that will be 100+ dollars for two? Yes, and it would be very rude to bring them.
Here is my point: Parents don't have leashes on their kids that provide total control (most of 'em anyway. ). Ergo they can't always be at fault for fussy children.
Parents do have the ability to make previous arrangements to leave the children home if possible when going to a pricy restaurant. Or, if the child's misbehavior is causing a hazardous situation, they should forcibly make their child sit in their seat. That's what was done to me.
Just my 2 cents.
[ January 29, 2004, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Some movie theatres here have "infant" sessions, where parents can bring their little children along - they have a sound proof room out the back which has the movie sound piped in (and a glass window, so you can see the movie) so the parent can take the baby out if it cries too much: but the attendance is solely other parents with babies (unless some poor schmuck reads the paper wrong: LOTR with 45 under twos, fun fun) so everyone is more tolerant of noise etc.
I think it's a great idea because not only does it cut down on incidents of babies disturbing other sessions, but it provides an environment where parents are not embarrassed/harrassed/flustered by taking their child along with them - and so provides them with an easier and more hassle-free way of getting out.
[ January 29, 2004, 04:58 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Wow. I've never agreed with so many conflicting opinions in my life.
When we take our kids Out To Eat, we go to a restaurant where we know they'll behave. Usually, a cheap Mexican place-- free salsa and chips for the older two keep them occupied until their tacos arrive.
We also are lucky to have found a nifty baby seat that attaches directly to the table for Litebrite. (Tom, Christy, if you can find one of these things at a yard sale, I highly recommend it-- I've never seen one in stores.) It's got rubber grips that screw into the tabletop, but the rest just hangs free. Really, the best invention man's ever made for babies. MUCH better than a high chair, because the baby feels closer to the family, and thus more secure, and the seat is smaller than restaurant high chairs, keeping her snug.
As for the Cheerios and chicken fingers. . . well, Mrs. M, sorry about that. Maybe if you'd refill our sodas once in a while, we might be persuaded to mininmize the damage. . .
Honestly, I haven't really noticed any misbehaved children in public places. Misbehaved parents, all the time. But never your classic baby screaming, toddler running amok, whining preteens... Maybe I'm oblivious to all of it, now that I have three small children of my own. Ooh, wonder if I'm so oblivious, I don't notice MY kids acting like monkeys?
Or maybe some of you folks are oversensitive?
Something to think about.
We don't go Out To Eat as a family very often-- but notice the capitalization. Going to a restaurant is an Event. For my wife and I, it acts as a reward for our children. And thus, a weapon in our arsenal to teach them to act like human beings rather than simians. So the kids know that going Out To Eat is special, and they generally, IMO, AFAIK, behave pretty well.
I can understand the desire to have a quiet ambiance when you eat though. . . and wish you the best of luck in finding a place that fits your description.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Don't want to be bothered with children as much in restaurants? Sit in the smoking section. Generally there are fewer children and strangely enough, smokers are already used to bowing to the public a bit, so their kids tend to be a bit better behaved in public.
Can't stand the kids or the smokers? Get over it. Folks are already bending over to not invade your personal lifestyle, perhaps you should offer the same back to them.
Okay, I'll admit it, I'm a smoker. Folks who were bothered by me and my ilk have forced us into the back corner of most restaurants, completely out of others and apparently in some places completely out of public in general.
Next up, they'll do it to families with kids. I guess it is already happening. Somehow they still seem to allow cellphone use, but that one will be going before long as well (not too sad about that one, personally).
If we have to have a no smoking sign and a no babies/toddlers sign, could we just have somewhere a no whining sign?
Or perhaps we should hand out lapel buttons to folks to allow the rest of us to know exactly what it is that bothers each of us. Then we can legislate that we all have to implicitly follow the instructions on each others buttons.
Then someday, we'll all be in little padded boxes, safe, sound and secure. And we won't bother each other in the least.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Wow! How'd I miss this one?
1) I've waitressed - in both family dining establishments and ritzy upscale golf course dining establishments. Everyone has a bad day and gets a little snarky, shall we say - but I'd far rather find the toys and color crayons for family than figure out how to keep the drunk, obnoxious rich guy's hands off my rear. I'd far rather deal with the drunk adult than the teens allowed out on their own. You know the ones, they all order a small something apiece and try to hide tickets? They also talk loudly and rudely about rated X subject material, thinking it's funny. Hmmmm - I guess we all have our pet peeves. But yes, part of my job as a food server was to take orders and serve food, but the other part (a big one) was to attend to the HOSPITALITY of the establishment. Which begins with civility and understanding.
I am a parent. Divorced. Full-time worker. I NEED to be able to get a meal out. That being said, I have actually picked Nathan up and carried him out of the waiting-to-be-seated line, kicking and screaming. A nice elderly couple held the door for me, winked, thanked me and said they'd done it a few times, too. Nathan and I didn't set foot in a restaurant for about 6 months.
Table manners: When Nathan hit age 8 and suddenly forgot how to use silverware and be polite at home, he found his plate and himself on the backporch in the dark and rain. This was after all the more "humane" interventions of redirecting, guiding, earlier meal, later meal, no meal, in the corner, to bed early . . . It is my duty and obligation as a parent to figure out what the child needs to behave. And supply it. And funny enough, he responded. He's 10 now and hasn't had to eat his dinner on the back porch like a dog because he's decided it's better to eat like a person.
Movies) I have been furious about adults hauling their children into highly inappropriate movies ever since I saw Braveheart and the numerous children in attendance. It IS child abuse. I do NOT allow my child to see movies like that. If I thought it wouldn't further traumatize the children, I'd bash the parents nose in.
Finally) Nathan and I found last year this GREAT book and we read it together: "The Family Book of Manners" by H. Hartley. It's an excellent parent/child-friendly instruction manual on HOW TO BEHAVE in a wide variety of situations. It's a great reminder for those of us that are super busy and a nice tool for teaching the young ones.
[ January 29, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Okay, I'll admit it, I'm a smoker. Folks who were bothered by me and my ilk have forced us into the back corner of most restaurants, completely out of others and apparently in some places completely out of public in general.
Wow. I consider smoking completely different.
A disclaimer: I am coming from a non-smoking and asthmatic background - plus I live in a country where all places that serve food (restaurants, pubs, bars, anywhere) are non-smoking inside.
But - kids at resteraunts, while sometimes annoying, do not cause me to stop breathing, make my clothes smell until I have them dry cleaned and possibly increase my risk of smoking-related cancer (I realise passive smoking is contentious. That's why I put the 'possibly'. But when it comes to lung cancer, I'd prefer not to risk it).
Basically I think it's easier leaving your cigarettes at the door than it is leaving your kids.
Non-smoking dining: I think smoke-free air is a right. Non-child dining: that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Edit: spell check
[ January 29, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So, parents, what is the appropriate thing to do if you see a parent not trying to control their noisy kid? Because I think that's what Mrs. M is talking about. I think anyone would have compassion for a parent whom they see is trying to keep their kid in line, but the kid won't behave. But what of the parents Mrs. M describes who do nothing? Isn't it appropriate to feel a little anger because they don't care about the feelings of other people around them?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I agree with Mrs. M about the theatre part -- I have seen kids in theatres that, in my opinion, were WAY too young for the subject content shown. And this is something parents CAN control. If you can't afford a babysitter for an evening to stay with your kids so you can go enjoy a movie, then you probably really can't afford the movie, either..
That said... I remember all the things I used to say "my kids will never do that!" when I was young and single. Then I had kids. And there is a Murphy's law that says your children will do EVERY SINGLE THING that you swore you would never allow your child to do in public (or else in front of a minister). Just to catch you off guard.
Of course, since I unwillingly became a single parent to three kids under the age of 5 (when I first got divorced), I was often overwhelmed. And there were things my kids did in public I'm ashamed of (especially the one with ADD).
Now that my kids are grown up -- I can easily recognize a similarly stressed mom. I was once eating in a restaurant and the young couple at the next table was trying to keep a two year happy and the lady was also holding an infant, who was NOT happy. I had mostly finished eating and was just drinking coffee, so I stood up, when over to the couple, and said, "Would you like for me to hold your baby for awhile so you can enjoy your dinner? I'm finished with my meal." They were very pleasantly surprised, and I quieted the baby so the mom could eat with her hands free.
of course, these days, someone might think I was trying to steal their baby -- but they can always say no. Just don't be afraid to step in and help a parent -- you just might be their savior of the day. It is one of those random acts of kindness that we discussed yesterday.
Farmgirl
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
This is so funny to mee, because I agree with both sides.
I mean, I was appalled that people had their kids with them in R rated movies I've seen before. We recently have taken the boys to see Pirates of the Carribean (I was taking my parents with me to see it, and had seen it before so I planned to take them to the arcade if they got upset or rowdy, but they didn't) and Cheaper by the Dozen which they both enjoyed a lot. I took Robert to see Spiderman (not Liam-- we got a sitter-- he was just too young), also prepared to take him out.
But we go to kid-appropriate movies with the boys, and we hit matinees (cheaper, and more likely to be filled with other parents) or the dollar theaters (see above).
Belle is right, though. You can't always predict when a kid is going to act up. That's why we pick generally loud places to begin with. And the running in the restaurant thing? We nipped that in the bud by telling our toddlers they could become 'bacon boys'. This is Ron's term to illustrate getting burned. Just saying, "You could get hurt" is heard by children as "Blah, Bahdy-Blah-blah" but that seemed to work.
They do get noisy. Liam has made something of a name for himself as a belcher, but even he knows he'll get his drink taken away if he does it in a restaurant. But it takes time to train kids.
When I said you might be more sympathetic when you have some of your own, I didn't mean you'd suddenly think it would be cool to take a toddler to Freddy vs. Jason, or let your little ones run amok in Mortons. But you might be a little less apt to scowl at a few crushed Cherios, or a kid who suddenly and inexplicably has a tantrum.
I remember trying to pick up crumbs from under a table at a restaurant as we were leaving, and having the waitress, a mom herself, say, "Leave it , Honey. We get woirse than that all the time, and we DO have brooms." She made me laugh, and feel a whole lot less like the world disaproved of me and my kids, just for stuff that we really can't help.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Mrs. M, you seem to be generalizing quite a bit here.
You wouldn't remember the golden children who were perfect angels. They fly below your radar.
You are coming accross not as someone who is annoyed at children in restaurants, but of offspring in general. I don't think that you mean to come accross this way.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:I am reminded of the time I met Olivia in an Applebee's and my son took off running and I had to chase him down.
Belle, I would never judge a parent who was attempting to control a toddler. I know it's difficult. I am referring to parents who sit and do nothing while their children run around screaming in Applebee's or one of those type of restaurants. And, yes, I am passing judgment on them. Even when a parent is frustrated and tired, they have an obligation to see to the safety of their children.
I do avoid family-style restaurants like Applebee's, especially when I want a quiet evening alone with my husband. All I want is one child-free restaurant that is moderately priced.
quote:MrsM: What would you do if you were on the way home from a road trip, you have been driving for the past couple of hours, and your kids needed to eat ect? Would you leave them in the car? You did share your experience from your upbringing, but leaving kids in the car nowadays would possibly get a call to the police. It could arguably be child endangerment.
Whoops. I should have clarified. An adult would stay with us in the car. It certainly is child endangerment and I would never leave a child alone in the car for any period of time.
Also, I pack my own food for road trips and I stop at the rest stops with picnic tables and little wooded areas to stretch your legs. Most of them have soda and vending machines some of them even have playgrounds. I expect I'll do the same when I have children - they can get rid of the excess energy and be as loud as they want.
quote:You remind me of so many people who say "When I'm a parent I will do this and won't do that" with such confidence and then comes to me after they actually have kids and say "I'm so sorry - I had no idea what it was really like."
I am aware of this phenomenon and have appointed my best friend Cara and my brother-in-law as "You said you wouldn't do that" enforcers. Believe me, they're both up to the task.
Also, I have to say that I am getting increasingly frustrated with everyone urging me to be compassionate and understanding toward parents. For one thing, I am. There are 90 kids in my program and a fair number of them have been kicked out of other after-school programs. I go out of my way to be nice to the parents when they come to pick their children up. If a parent is looking especially tired or frustrated, I make it a point to give them a sympathetic smile or comment. If they are juggling several children, I help look after the little ones until the big ones are ready.
But why are parents excused from being compassionate and understanding? My mother-in-law is deaf in one ear (so is my mother, coincidentally) and her hearing is not so great in the other one. At one non-family style bistro, we eventually gave up and sat in silence for half of our meal. Shouldn't parents sympathize that their childrens' volume is preventing her from communicating with her son and daughter-in-law? She only sees us a few times a year. Is it so unreasonable to expect some accommodation for a handicapped person?
What about my mother? She has a brain tumor and a nerve disorder. She has days where her balance is poor and she gets sudden onsets of vertigo. Sometimes she walks with a cane. She has been bumped into by children running in restaurants several times. Luckily, she was fine, but what about the next time?
Do my mother and mother-in-law have to avoid restaurants all together?
. Shan, I am really impressed with your technique. I think it's something that all parents should consider.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
Hmmmm . . .
I think parents should not accept their children running around, talking to strangers, bumping into other tables, picking up silverware from unoccupied tables, etc., no matter what kind of restaurant they are in. I don't care if it's Denny's or Applebee's. There are certain behaviors that go too far, and that parents can and should put a stop to. The simple solution, even simpler if there are two parents, is to remove the child from the restaurant. I think children screaming in a movie theater should be removed as well. Of course when you go to a family restaurant or a PG movie, you should not be surprised by the presence of children, but I still think you have a right to expect the parents of those children to keep them more or less in line.
I absolutely hate it when I go to a very nice restaurant, like a Shula's Steakhouse or a Melting Pot, only to find badly behaved children there. These are not family restaurants (in case the notice outside of Shula's that there is no child's menu did not clue you in), these are restaurants that adults go to to have an intimate time. Usually, Cor and I are paying an arm and a leg between the babysitting and the nice restaurant, and we really resent it when it gets ruined by a screaming kid that somebody doesn't have the good sense to remove.
I think what's setting some of us parents off, though, is the casual assumption at times in this thread that children misbehave because their parents are incompetent. Children are their own unique people, and not an extension of their parents' will. When a child misbehaves, you don't know if this is a rare occurrence, or if the child is under unusual stress, or what. So don't make the diagnostic statements: they are behaving like this because their parents blah blah blah.
It may sound condescending, but it's true that if you don't have kids, you really don't know what it's like. Even if you do, you don't, because, as Pat said, individual kids are different. So you may have your one little angel and be congratulating yourself on what a competent parent you are. Don't have another one, though, because you might shatter the illusion for yourself.
Comments like having kids entails sacrifice feel insulting to me because they make assumptions about what we as parents do all the time. They make assumptions that my kids are always out of control, that I never leave them home, and that I'm so self-indulgent that I thought I could eat my cake and have it too. Don't you think I have sacrificed? You don't know what anybody else thinks or thought, so don't presume to judge on that basis.
That doesn't mean it's wrong to expect parents to control their children's behavior. Just that it's wrong to assume these people are idiots or incompetent when their kids act out a little.
Olivet (I think it was) raise a very good point: if we don't occasionally take our kids out, they won't learn how to behave in public. Like anything else. Cor and I often had minor conflicts about settings in which I would let the girls walk around without holding my hand, or things I would let them try. It's not that I was unconcerned for their safety. I was, but I felt that sometimes they needed to practice judging what they could and could not do, and they needed to practice walking around in public without being led. (If you haven't had little ones, when you hold their hands, they learn they don't have to look where they are going. When you let go of their hands, they spend a lot of time bumping into things before they figure it out. Or getting caught by Daddy nanoseconds before bumping into something. But how else will they learn?)
My kids are pretty strong-willed. I happen to also think they're pretty good. A couple of Hatrackers have seen my kids misbehave in public. They've also seen me take them home. More than a couple of Hatrackers have also seen my kids be angels in public. I believe we have taught our kids pretty well how to behave in restaurants and in theaters. We also have gotten babysitting when appropriate. I have taken my kids to restaurants quite a bit nicer than Denny's, and they've almost always done me proud. And many folks have been gracious enough to compliment the girls on their behavior.
(I have also had the experience, at Red Lobster, of having an elderly couple demand, and get, a different table when we arrived, when my girls had not misbehaved in any way. I enjoyed the karmic revenge when a much louder family was seated next to their new table, while my girls were perfect angels throughout dinner!)
A stray thought to consider: sometimes doing the right thing makes you look like a worse parent, because it attracts people's attention to you. When you take kids out of a restaurant or theater, they typically escalate. So you might not have noticed the bad behavior if I had ignored it (if you weren't at the table next door), but you sure notice me leaving with the screaming kid. I have gotten more dirty looks this way than over my kids' behavior at the table. Dang it, I'm doing what virtually everybody in this thread has said is the right thing!
My post has been meandering like a freewrite because I see things from both perspectives here. If I have a point, I think I might be figuring it out right here. I'll speak in first person because it's so personal, but my point is that I don't think I'm alone here. Raising children is a sacred responsibility. It is the most momentous responsibility I can conceive of. And there is no consensus on how to do it right. (This is the part that nonparents can't understand. How To Parent seems easy when all ther is is you and your untested ideas.) Am I too strict? Am I too lenient? Am I too protective? Am I too distant? I'm probably failing as a father in a thousand little ways--heck, I know that I am! Because I don't have all the answers. But I'm doing the very best that I can, and making the decisions that seem right to me at any given moment. And constantly reexamining them. When you stand on the outside, it's typical to look and say that somebody is incompetent, or inconsiderate, or not sacrificing enough. And all this is not to say that parents don't make mistakes, or that they shouldn't handle some things differently, but that you shouldn't be so quick to judge them as human beings, lest ye be judged someday yourself.
As to the topic of this thread: I wouldn't mind if there were some child-free theaters and restaurants. Heck, I would appreciate their existence for those exceedingly rare times when Cor and I get to go out on a date! As long as not all nice restaurants went this route, because then how could my children practice behaving in a nice place?
A much easier practice to implement is for hosts and hostesses at restaurants to try to informally segregate couples from families. As a family, I hate this, because we often get seated next to families with kids behaving much worse than ours do, but I understand and accept it. And it would have made that couple at Red Lobster so much happier!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
you can't really win.... it's not a matter of someone trying to tell someone how to raise their kids. It's a safety issue. Children should not be running around in resturants It's a nuisance to all the people trying to serve food, it's a danger. Hot soup could be dumped on the kid, someone could trip on him or her. That's all there is to that. No one's trying to insult anyone's parenting, it isn't always easy to control rambunctious kids, but it should be done anyway. it prevents disaster from happening. As for small children at R rated movies, why? Young kids shouldn't be seeing stuff like The Cell or Hannibal... what is wrong with people?
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
My philosophy on the matter: People are going to be annoying whether you like it or not, so you should just chill. The only other real option is to be a grump about it, which will mainly have the same results, but will make you look (and usually feel) worse.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
Are you responding to me, Syn? Did I say it's okay for children to run around restaurants? Actually, I said the opposite. Did you read my post?
quote:No one's trying to insult anyone's parenting
Really?
quote: Actually, they were ruined by the parents of these children, who didn’t care that they have failed to teach their offspring how to act in public.
quote: As one of the founding members of the Birth Control In The Water PAC . . .
quote: And I agree that it's the parents that have failed, but then again, have you noticed how some adults act in public?
quote: I think that most parents are NOT considerate when it comes to how their childrens' behavior affects others in public.
quote: They can't bear to be without movies but don't want to pay for a sitter and don't have the common courtesy to seek alternatives to ruining your experience.
quote: But, dragging some irritating kids DAD outside to stand on him for a while might be okay...
quote: Who is in charge of your family? Parenting *means* giving up a singles life style which includes setting aside some social activities, or cutting back.
Have you been reading the same thread I have?
Look, my point is certainly not that parents are never wrong. Heck, half of my post was in agreement with Mrs.M., including the idea that there should be some places that are absolutely child-free.
My concern is with the imputation of motive that I keep seeing--they don't give a damn, they don't want to make sacrifices, they want everyone else to pay for their good time--or the judging of fitness to parent based on one incident of which you see only one side.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
My kids will all be like Bobby Fischer. Well-behaved and quietly brilliant. Their only outbursts will be in the form of throwing chess matches.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
And once again, hail to Icarus.
As a parent and a general all round great and insightful person, I salute you. It is a complex issue, and no-one (parents or non-parents) can claim to have the ultimate answer.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote:Comments like having kids entails sacrifice feel insulting to me because they make assumptions about what we as parents do all the time. They make assumptions that my kids are always out of control, that I never leave them home, and that I'm so self-indulgent that I thought I could eat my cake and have it too. Don't you think I have sacrificed? You don't know what anybody else thinks or thought, so don't presume to judge on that basis.
While I do not have children, I believe the majority of parents who are on Hatrack, are indeed good parents. Most of the people on hatrack are generally polite as well. We have a lot more civility and concern about community than many othe forums. Most of us agree Hatrack is unique.
However, Icky, while I do believe you have sacrificed for your kids and a good parent, there are many people out there who are obviously not. You wouldn't hear the news stories every day if it weren't the case. The mother who left her baby alone on a bed for TWO DAYS in an empty apartment so she could go have a good time.
On a much less abusive scale, the parents who bring their children to theaters after 9 and 10pm at night. (At least in Chicago they do quite frequently IMO.) Those kids should be home and in bed and no wonder they are cranky and fussy. In that case I can and do blame the parents. They are rude and inconsiderate to other movie goers.
As far as resturaunts go, in my own experience while we were growing up my parents didn't. McDonalds was a treat. Once we could behave in McDonalds then they started upgrading the quality of a resutraunt. I did embarrass my mother once when she caught me playing with my mashed potatoes with my fingers. My response was, "well I always do it at home" which embarrased her further. However it was true, I did put architectural features in my mashed potatoes but because I was quiet and well-behaved and tending to my brothers, she never noticed. Mostly they didn't go out with or without us because they didn't want to spend money either way.
I think the majority of Hatrack parents are taking this way too personally. You are the good guys, who are doing your best. It is these seeming multitudes of parents out there (though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious) that don't do anything to modify children's unacceptable behaviors at which I believe Mrs. M is targeting her criticism.
AJ
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: suck my chocolate
Whoa. Pop just sort of almost kinda quoted me.
quote: Are you willing to stay home every day of your life after you have children? Because that is the only way you can assure that you wont' be going out when your child has a bad day or behavior problems.
This and some other comments have made me think that most people have forgotten the age-old method of taking your kids out of the restaurant. You can be having a bad day, and your kids can be having a bad day and be acting up, and that's not necessarily a reflection of your parenting skills. What DOES reflect your parenting skills is your refusal to discipline your child, which may include excusing them and yourselves from your dining experience for the evening. ("You" in this case doesn't refer to anyone in particular.) Which brings me to...
quote: Olivet (I think it was) raise a very good point: if we don't occasionally take our kids out, they won't learn how to behave in public.
Part of learning how to behave in public includes learning that it is possible to lose your privilege of being in public that time. How does it teach a kid how to behave in public when you're letting them do whatever they want? That doesn't actually qualify as behaving. Off to the car with 'em.
quote: I have gone up to women I didn't know and talked to them and had them break down and cry when I did nothing more than ask them if they were doing okay and could I help them in any way. You have no idea how very hard it is to be a mother of toddlers. NO idea what it is to bear the brunt of that responsibility day in and day out. The average mom of toddlers has sleep depravation, money problems (especially if she has quit working to be a stay-at-home Mom), and a very high level of day-to-day stress that she can't escape.
The last woman I sat with and prayed with was trying to juggle being a Mom of three, a bookeeper for her husband's business (she did all the work at night after the kids went to bed, usually getting to bed herself at 2:00 am), and the primary caregiver of her Alzheimer's afflicted mother.
Often you can tell the difference between this kind of haggard parent and the one that just doesn't give a rip. The latter is the one laughing, drinking (or not), smiling and enjoying their time in blissful ignorance of their child's current activities. If the former were having that much fun, I'd question her depression.
quote: I have gotten more dirty looks this way than over my kids' behavior at the table. Dang it, I'm doing what virtually everybody in this thread has said is the right thing!
Actually, these people are annoying. Sorry you had this experience. Most people I've seen have been grateful to see me quickly discipline my children in whatever way as soon as they begin misbehaving. Maybe it's possible you waited a long time before doing what was necessary? Not that I was there or anything. Most people aren't going to be as grateful as you'd think they'd be if you let your kids holler for twenty minutes before doing anything. But if that's not your case, I apologize.
Added: I forgot to mention my hubby's grandma, who had six kids in ten years. These she took to nice restaurants only when their dad was on leave. They behaved very well. That's because they wanted to enjoy their special time with their dad, and if they misbehaved, they got to go home. I just love that story. Imagine six kids between 2 and twelve all being as good as gold. Makes me squishy inside. The funny thing is that when you talk to her kids they say, "Of course we didn't act up. We didn't get to finish dinner if we did." This is the attitude most parents need to take, in my opinion.
[ January 29, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
quote:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Olivet (I think it was) raise a very good point: if we don't occasionally take our kids out, they won't learn how to behave in public.
Part of learning how to behave in public includes learning that it is possible to lose your privilege of being in public that time. How does it teach a kid how to behave in public when you're letting them do whatever they want? That doesn't actually qualify as behaving. Off to the car with 'em.
o_O
Did you read my post?
quote:Maybe it's possible you waited a long time before doing what was necessary? Not that I was there or anything. Most people aren't going to be as grateful as you'd think they'd be if you let your kids holler for twenty minutes before doing anything.
Actually, I'm much more often accused of being too strict. But I guess by posting and showing vulnerability, I opened myself up to that. I guess I should just have said that my kids are always perfect and that we're excellent parents. As it is, I'll just have to hope that someone who's actually seen me with my kids will post and back me up that I am not the kind of parent who does nothing while my kids run wild.
Look, I know you're trying to be balanced. But you seem to have picked a couple of quotes up out of my post while overlooking a lot.
-o-
You're right, Anna. There are cases where judgments are definitely called for. And we Hatrack parents are no doubt being touchy. But I think we're being touchy both because several posts have been quick to characterize parents of misbehaving children as automatically incompetent and unfit for the job--at first, anyway. Now that people are responding to that, some of them are backing off of those stances--and also because at some point or another IRL we have felt unfairly judged, and so we're sensitive to it.
My point is not that we're the good guys, but that even people who are trying to be the good guys will fail from time to time, because this is an incredibly big job that nothing can prepare you for. But thank you for your kind words. I very much appreciate them. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Sorry. No, I read your post, and I grabbed that quote out of there because I couldn't find the original one. That first part wasn't directed at you in particular, just my feelings about the sentence itself. My opinion about what's important about taking your kids out.
And, hey, if you think you're a little too strict, then more power to you. I feel that way about myself, and truthfully, being too strict in this era is probably comparable to being just strict enough in our parent's time.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I wasn't responding to anything but the idea of letting kids run amuck in resturants where there's hot and dangerous things about. I wasn't trying to insult or attack anyone, but it does drive me nuts. Parents not putting hats on babies... Kids being allowed to crash shopping carts everywhere... Stuff like that just makes me twitch in horror...
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:I think the majority of Hatrack parents are taking this way too personally. You are the good guys, who are doing your best. It is these seeming multitudes of parents out there (though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious) that don't do anything to modify children's unacceptable behaviors at which I believe Mrs. M is targeting her criticism.
You know, I'd find it very unlikely that there'd be multitudes of parents out there like that but somehow Hatrack hasn't managed to get any of them.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
quote:though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious
This may be the crux of it.
EDIT to add:
I think the majority of parents are trying to do the best as they see it. And I think that it is a typical reaction for anybody (myself included) to look at somebody handling something differently than you would and summarily dismiss them as incompetent.
And of course, there really are incompetent and even abusive parents.
But when the belief that they are omnipresent becomes common, then the rest of us can't help but fear that people are being a bit too quick to judge, and we don't want to be included in those broad generalizations.
There was more I wanted to say, but it's slipped my mind . . .
[ January 29, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: lcarus ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Thank you, Icarus.
I think the problem is that PSI and Syn don't seem to notice that we agree with them, or else they think we're trying to excuse the sort of thing that really IS out of line.
Oy. I can't think of how many times I've had to take somebody out of a place. And I have had a few occasions where I had a child who was acting up and no place to go with them (large family outings for people's birthdays and whatnot-- I think it only happened twice), and on one of those occasions the food took forever to arrive, we took the little one outside three times and he behaved when we came back... for a while. And we got chastized by a couple near us, who were very demanding that we take the child out again. Well, I had hadit, and that was the last straw. We had come 300 miles to have lunch with my mother, and she wanted this restaurant (a mexican one that was informal, and her favorite). We had come with everyone and we couldn't leave. Liam, usually very good, was hungry and the food was 45 min in coming. My sister, who is great at confrontations handled it for me. The couple left eventually (the service was really bad that day, even though we had picked an off-time for lunch, and they didn't have a free smaller dining room (which they usually did for large parties)).
So I know for a fact that my kids have pissed people off in retaurants, but in one instance I couldn't help it, and in the other ( the guy who cursed and was asked to leave by the management) the person was just plain too sensitive.
I don't think a no-kids restaurant is a bad idea, not at all. But people can be jerks, and some of them do let their kids run wild, etc. The only thing Icky and Belle and I trying to say is that THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT US. We do our best, and we think it's unfair to be lumped together with people who leve their babies alone for two days.
That's not unreasonable, is it?
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
Not to be rude, Nick, but it should be obvious what my point was, when others on this thread took six inches to explain that the situation with kids is different in theaters than in restaurants. I put it in one line, and you're confused?
And whenI said that being a parent means sacrificing, I mean it in a good way. Sacrifice is a good thing, it teaches you to love. and no one should be offended by that because sacrifice is, by its nature, a subjective thing. It obviously is a much bigger sacrifice for others to not go to the movies than it is for me. I'm not judging their sacrifice. I'm saying it's kind of cheap when some people want YOU to pick up the check of THEIR sacrifice. that's it.
Interesting, though, isn't it? How defensive everyone is of their parenting abilities?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
There is a difference, IMO, between defending and being defensive.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Ah, dkw, but it's an interesting dilemma.
While generalities were made, individuals were certainly not pointed out. But the individuals feel a strong desire to defend their positions.
However, we'll never _actually_ know _exactly_ how good their kids are in restaurants, or how they actually deal with their kids in restaurants/theaters/bowling alleys/supermarkets. So it's a bit one-sided, really. We'll take their word for it, 'cause they're generally good for their word.
Defending a position that can't be proven can make you feel better, but who knows.. maybe one out of every 10 parents who truly thinks they're a good parent is really quite lousy in public.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Olivet, again, the statement wasn't a defensive statement. The point I was trying to get across is this: Here is a statement. Here are my feelings on the statement. You seem to be the one that thinks there is disagreement. Maybe it's just because at Hatrack we are so used to the quote and refute tactic. Can't I quote and expound? Or quote and share?
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Rohan, We do the best we can, and we take a lot of insensitive shite from people who obviously know all about being a parent from working in their church nursuries.
If we're defensive, it's because we're used to being attacked, sneered at and dismissed as "Breeders" by people who think they are better than we are because their lives are neat, orderly and child-free.
I think it's pertty clear that a there ARE restaurants that don't want kids there, but some folks bring them anyway. That's not my fault, and it's not my problem. I don't like being lumped in with every Child Protective Services horror story, just because I admit my sons have sometimes had tantrums, or whatever. I deal with it, I try to be considerate of others, and teach my kids to do the same. But they ARE kids. I mean, sometimes they don't look where they are going when we walk together in a store, and I have to tell them to move so somebody with a cart can get by. It's not malicious-- but some people's response to the PRESENSE of children is.
I've had people talk loudly about how they are so glad they have never had kids because they're all so horrible, etc. while I'm waiting for my car to be fixed, trying to entertain a toddler with a few toys I brought with me and an ancient issue of People.
You really don't realize how hard it is, sometimes. Being a parent does require sacrifice, but one of those sacrifices should not be enduring the ridicule of others. Tough. Some people are jerks.
Some PARENTS are jerks. You deal with your jerks, and I'll deal with MINE.
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Mrs. M,
You said that " I don't think that there is ever an excuse for bad manners or inappropriate behavior from children... "
Let me relate to you a story. In the grocery store, we once saw a man in a wheelchair. My kids have seen that, and they don't comment on it. But this man was morbidly obese, to the point that I thought it was brave of him to come out in public.
My two older, at the time 7 and 9, knew enough not to say anything. They had the processing power to apply other experience to this and know that it would be rude. My four year old did not, and she promptly pointed and yelled "Why is that man so fat?" This child has always been one we had to ask to speak more quietly because she naturally has a loud voice. So when she yelled it out, people all the way up and down that isle and probably two isles over could hear her. That poor man turned right around and left before any apology could be made. Would an apology have even been enough?
I immediately told her how wrong that was and how it would make the man feel, and then she felt bad. But the damage was done. She learned that lesson at the cost of another.
It isn't that we don't teach our children not to be rude. It is that at very young ages they developmentally lack two things: empathy and an ability to predict consequences. At four, my youngest could predict most familiar situations, but this was unfamiliar and at four, true empathy is not yet in the equation. That isn't to say that children aren't compassionate. Compassion is different from empathy. They simply can't yet tell how a person will feel about something.
One thing I have trained them to do backfired on my in this case: I train them to ask questions and be curious and wonder about the world.
Though I still feel very bad about that man, I wouldn't change my parenting because of it.
Chances are, you engaged in inappropriate and rude behavior as a child that you simply don't remember. And it is pretty likely there was nothing short of abuse your mom could have done about it. Unless you were naturally a fearful or extremely shy child. Those exist. I had one like that.
Even with your backtracking, you have come across as incredibly naive and judgemental about parenting. At what age do you expect to have trained your child to be a perfect little angel?
That said, we are probably more appalled than you to see young children and babies in movie theaters at R and PG-13 movies because we always got a sitter if we wanted to go to those movies. Not only could toddlers be disruptive, but they aren't old enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. My two oldest have now gone to see LOTR movies in the theaters, but we watched the movies ourselves first to see if they were okay for their ages. And we won't take our now 6 year old to those particularly long movies, because it is too hard for her to sit still for that long. It really isn't fair to her, either, to make her sit through something that should be entertainment and not constrainment for her. So we'll let her see it at home, when she can play on the floor while she watches it.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:I think the majority of Hatrack parents are taking this way too personally. You are the good guys, who are doing your best. It is these seeming multitudes of parents out there (though probably less than we realize, they just seem like more because they are obnoxious) that don't do anything to modify children's unacceptable behaviors at which I believe Mrs. M is targeting her criticism.
No, Mrs. M is targeting all parents except Olivet.
quote:Olivet, I think that you are the exception, bless your heart. The lone exception.
This comment is the only thing that I found especially rude in this thread. And I did find it very rude and tactless. I think that the majority of parents are doing their very best.
I agree with pretty much the entirety of the first post in this thread, but I think that this statement was really going too far. I agree with pretty much everything Icarus said and see my wife and myself in a similar position. Our kids are pretty well behaved, and if they aren't they will be removed from the restaurant/theatre. They will not be taken to inappropriate movies (or movies played at late hours). They will not be taken to restaurants that are expected to be quiet and they will not leave their seats in a restaurant except to go to the washroom. If they break rules or make a lot of unnecessary noise, we will leave or one of us will take the child outside until they are ready to behave. Like Icarus, I also think we are too strict sometimes.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
PSI, I understand. But the quote you used came from a post that also advocated taking rowdy kids out. Losing the privaledge is part of learning.
It just seemed like you were taking that and saying , "Yeah, but you should take them out of they're disruptive." WHICH I HAD ALREADY SAID.
So, it's like this:
"Part of learning how to behave in public is going out in public and teaching them how to act. Punishing misbehaviour and rewarding good behavior."
"Yeah, but you should take them out when they're bad and not inflict them on the rest of us"
"That's what I said"
"You're so defensive!"
I'm just tired of getting looks from people, directed at my kids, for doing nothing other than just BEING. Not to mention be compared to criminals.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I think the people that are saying most parents do their best are the ones doing their best and therefore expect similar from other parents. I, on the other hand, am painfully aware of my shortcomings and the times when I am lazy and let things slide when I shouldn't, or the times I am ugly to my kids when they deserve better. So I tend to be critical of other parents, because I see it in them too.
Not related to much, just a moment of personal evaluation.
BTW, I feel bad for Mrs. M. in this thread. She just basically said that parents have a responsibility to at least TRY to keep their kids under control, and that she has a problem when they don't try at all. I think that's a fair statement. Why so much argument about that?
Olivet: Confusing of me. That's fair. I really wasn't responding to you or Ic or anything. I just wanted to say that it's fairly simple. Kid acts up, take them out. Maybe I picked the wrong quote to start from, I could have used others that maybe would have made more sense. There were a lot.
[ January 29, 2004, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
*hug* I know what y ou mean, PSI. We try, but sometimes things slip, and we just have to pick up and move on. I've had plenty of "Well, now, THAT wasn't the smartest thing I've ever done" parenting moments.
I probably am being too sensitive. LOL
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Comments I have endured simply by being somewhere public with my kids - not in moments when they were misbehaving, but just when I was pushing a cart down a grocery aisle or etc.
"Good God, I hope you don't have more at home! (I did in fact have one at home, only three were with me)
A mother to her daughter after walking past me and my kids "I better not ever catch you turning out like that."
"Haven't you figured out what cases that yet?"
A nurse starting my IV for my hysterectomy (which was for medical reasons only, severe bleeding) after learning that I had four children "Oh, so this is an emergency hysterectomy then!"
A woman on seeing me with the twins "That's the perfect way to do it, a boy and a girl in one shot and you're through." When I told her I had two older children "Why in the world did you have twins, then?" As if I could control it.
A woman at my daughter's dance studio, when I told her that I had planned on three but we got four because of the twins (I was not complaining, when I tell that story I usually say "But God gave us the bonus plan!") said "You know, my sister was going to have triplets but they aborted one of them, you should have done that."
I could go on. So yeah, like Olivia I'm a little sick of people looking at me and acting as though I've done something wrong by having kids and being a full time Mom.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
quote:BTW, I feel bad for Mrs. M. in this thread. She just basically said that parents have a responsibility to at least TRY to keep their kids under control, and that she has a problem when they don't try at all. I think that's a fair statement. Why so much argument about that?
I don't think it is so much what Mrs. M said as it is the way she said it. For details, see my previous post.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote:If we're defensive, it's because we're used to being attacked, sneered at and dismissed as "Breeders" by people who think they are better than we are because their lives are neat, orderly and child-free.
This is sad. Personally, while I don't have kids, I have the utmost respect for parents because I know it is a difficult job.
I taught swimming lessons to children for 5 years. During that time I also taught Adult Beginners classes. I was one of the few instructors willing to take on adult beginners because most of the other instructors couldn't deal with overcoming the more ingrained adult fears. However for me it was a godsend. While I was capable of teaching a child how to swim and qualified from a credential standpoint and I did my best, I simply could not relate to the children in my classes like I could with the adults. Was I the worst instructor there, maybe not, but if I did have children I don't know that I would have wanted me teaching my kids either.
Also, my life isn't anywhere close to neat and orderly if it is child free. If I had kids it might degenerate to squalor and that would be bad for everyone concerned!
AJ
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: You know, my sister was going to have triplets but they aborted one of them, you should have done that."
Vomit. That's terrible. How did they pick which one? Which lucky fetus was the first down the pike?
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
I haven't read anything in this thread other than the title, so forgive me if I'm repeating something already said, but:
I don't find movies about children all that interesting and I'm against the eating of children in restaurants. Frankly, I'm amazed that this discussion is even taking place.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
::applauds::
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
Belle, Olivet, I have kids too and have endured crap comments from people about them (although, to be fair, Belle, your comments received....I don't know what to say about that except I'm sorry, and it sounds like some people didn't ever learn manners when they were kids. Those really are astounding comments). they worst I ever got was a law school professor telling me I shouldn't have had kids because it would interfere with my school work. anyway
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
jehovoid AJ
[ January 29, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
See, I think both sides of this argument are reponding to RL stuff , like what Belle mentioned.
I know that most childless people don't say and do the things we mentioned, and that most parents are at least reasonably reponsible.
Mrs. M is not out of line in wanting adult only places. I heartily agree, actually.
I think the reponse of the parents on the board is more due to little slights we get frequently (and the odd comment about birth control in the water, as if children are a plague) than to the reasonable complaints that people have about wild children in public whose parents ignore them.
As a matter of fact, I think we all, basically agree.
Banna, I would so love to meet you! I didn't mean you, of course, but I do get looks sometimes and assumptions about my intelligence, or level of education (I'm just beginning to realize it may be because I look a little younger than the average parent around here, so they think I didn't go to college or something).
I also have people assume that we're wealthy, because I don't work outside the home. *snicker* I may work parttime when Liam is old enough to go to regular school, but not working now is a sacrifice, financially and otherwise.
So anyway. I think the "argument " here comes more from our baggage than anything we're actually saying. LOL
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
One of the advantages of living in the alien nation of Utah is that we don't get the responses Belle has described. With three children, we are one of the smaller families.
But in Oregon, that was a whole different story. When I was pregnant with our third, and we had two daughters, I was so often asked "Oh, so are you trying for a boy?"
"No, we just want another child. We don't care what it is."
And then the looks. I have to admit, I look a little young for my age and I chose to start having children when I was 20. Not unusual for the culture I grew up in, but fairly unusual elsewhere. The assumptions I could see in peoples faces were frustrating even when they were kindly.
'Listen, lady, every one of these children were planned and wished for and even if I'm a little frustrated today because it is overwhelming, I am still grateful for these wonderful kids that have opened my eyes to more than I ever could imagine. And no, I was not a teen and yes, I was married.'
[ January 29, 2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
*nod* @ Olivet
I stopped myself from posting a few minutes ago in response to Rohan's defensiveness comment (and Suneun's assertion that there is no evidence that any of is is not, in fact, a lousy parent) because I didn't know how to say what I wanted to without either appearing more defensive, or displaying more vulnerability. But you've pretty much said it for me.
[ January 29, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: lcarus ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I know, the comments I've gotten are pretty bad, I think it's because my last three are so close together.
They're nothing compared to the comments that some of my friends with large families have gotten. A close friend has six, and she was told by someone in public that having so many children should be against the law.
The mother of nine was told that she obviously didn't love her children, or she wouldn't have had so many because she can't pay enough attention to them.
Both of them have been asked questions similar to "Are you on some weird religion that doesn't believe in birth control?"
Or, the many, many times they get asked if they are Catholic.
Amka, I got the same response when people knew I had two girls and I was pregnant.
I did know someone who had seven children because the first six were boys and she wanted a girl. She admitted that "We would have stopped at three, if one of them had been a girl."
I've always wondered how that makes boy #4,5,and 6 feel.
[ January 29, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Well, of course my timing is off. I came to this a little later.
Anyway, kudos to Olivet.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
quote:Or, the many, many times they get asked if they are Catholic.
Well, that one's not necessarily an insult! Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Of course it isn't an insult! I just mean that the assumption that no one would have that many kids unless they WERE catholic.
but you knew that, didn't you?
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Hehe. I do belong to one of those wierd religions.
I do have to say there was a dissenting remark: The doctor who delivered my children in Oregon told me that I should have 12 kids.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Three, four kids. *ppfff* Y'all are wimps. Real families have the kids outnumber the parents three to one.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Never of people saying stuff like that to people. How rude. What's it to them if folks want to have a lot of kids? arg how rude Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
My friend Kathy and I had lunch at IHOP with my boys and her one son. She was pregnant at the time, and her son had just turned two. Liam had recently turned three, and become quite manageable, but I was still nervous about taking them out without Daddy.
Anyway, it went well. So, we decided to go across the street to BJ's, which is kind of like Costco or Sam's. Eric ran out into the parkinglot ahead of her and I screamed and ran for him dragging my boys by the hands. Eric had always stuck close to her, so she didn't think to grab hold of him before turning to shut her car door.
Things got worse inside. Her little Eric began to bawl and it was pure temper tantrum. He hadn't done that before and Kathy was shocked and appalled. She'd seen my Liam have a hissy before, but had just assumed he was a bad seed, I guess.
Anyway, we had to leave. Once we got outside and had everyone packed away in their carseats (Eric fought and kicked and cried the whole time), she just started crying. I gave her a big hug.
"What's wrong with him?"
"Honey, he's two. Tempertantrums are normal for his age, and you'll learn how to deal with it. It will happen sometimes when you least expect it, but for the most part when he's tired or over stimulated. You'll deal with it, and he'll grow out of it."
"But how do you do it with TWO?" Did I mention she was pregnant?
"I have a lot of help, and I didn't go out much with them until this phase was over. But I'm here for you, hon."
That day was rough, especially for her, but it meant a lot to us both. I think it also slightly raised her estimation of my parenting skills. And I was thrilled to be able to help her, and offer comfort and advice after her first experience enduring those disapproving looks.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
That's a nice story. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Thanks.
I think we parents understand each other, at least, and agree that kids have to be disciplined to behave well.
AND, Kid-free places would be a boon to us parents, too, when we do get the odd night out.
Amka, you probably SHOULD have 12-- I'm sure you could love them all sufficiently (winks at Belle's friend's rude stranger).
My doctor actually tried to talk me into having more, too. LOL
I used to go out with my two, and my neighbor's two as well. Sometimes nieces and nephews, too. It was a hoot, since they are mostly all blonde and really look a lot alike. I got to say funny things like "Head 'em up and move 'em out!" when I gathered them up at the playground, or the toystore or whatever. Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Thanks Olivet,
I remember a stage when my youngest was still just a baby, and my others were quite young. Whenever I had my hands full and needed them to follow my I'd call "Come on little ducklings." And they'd fall into single file behind me.
It was so cute.
And now my youngest is older than that and puberty approacheth.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Another thought,
As a non-parent, there is a definite difference between "kids" in general and a specific child.
I was a bit annoyed by the mother at Steve's family gathering that dumped a baby on me while she went to go eat. It wasn't that she dumped the baby for me to take care of while she was eating that was the problem. The problem was that once she was done, she didn't at any point ask if I was ok or offer to take the kid back. I would have made the offer if I had given someone a puppy to hold. She also assumed I have innate child-rearing abilities that are entirely not there.
On the other hand one of my good friends from college has one son, with another child on the way. Ian is a delight. With him I've never had the "icky baby" reaction. Yes he's a normal kid, yes he screams and cries like any other kid, but I genuinely enjoy interacting with him too. Yes she gets frazzled watching him and calls me sometimes. I can't directly relate but I can give her sympathy.
Sometimes I've had to struggle not to laugh, since hearing her describe the poopy diaper explosion and subsequent poop flinging in the playpen when he was supposed to be down for a nap was pretty funny. But I wasn't there having to clean it up either. It a difficult job and one that I have not yet chosen to undertake. With this particular friend I wish I could be there geographically to occasionally take the boy off of her hands for a bit so that she can have a break.
In the first case it was a person I don't know that well and I felt uncomfortable around. In the second case it is a person who I do know well and do know is trying their hardest.
Why do I have this dichotomy of reactions? I'm not sure. Even while I have watched Ian on occasion and enjoyed playing with him, it gives me no desire for a child of my own. I know have no "maternal" instinct at all. This may be why I have more respect for those who do.
AJ
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
My standard response to a mom who says "How do you manage with four?" is
"Who says I do?"
I get by as best as I can. I'm certainly no model parent, but I try.
Unfortuantely there is still a large segment of the population that doesn't respect at-home mothers and doesn't understand what a difficult job it is.
I've never watched a daytime soap opera in my life. I get my hackles up when people presume I don't make a significant contribution, or that I'm not worth as much since I quit working.
The worst part is I do this to myself. *sigh* I struggle with my self-esteem because it's been so ingrained in me that women should be independent money earners that I have trouble accepting myself.
But, that's what my therapist is for, I guess. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Preach it, sister!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I recently had my second child, and when asked how many I wanted I said "six or seven". People would actually say to me "No you don't".
Well, thanks, I was having trouble figuring out what I really meant.
THEN I had my tubes tied, but not because I didn't want any more kids. But people say, "Told ya, two was enough. I was right."
I try to say that I still want more kids, and they ask why I was sterilized. I don't feel like I should have to explain all the medical reasons for my surgery. Suffice it to say that I would LOVE to adopt some kids.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
People need to just chill... Taking care of kids is a fulltime unpaid harder than any job in the whole entire universe and whoever says a person isn't contributing because they are not working some nine to five job or wearing a powersuit should be shot out of a cannon into cold water. So do not feel bad...
People should also not tell me to have kids when I don't even have a mate and haven't even kissed yet or say, "You'll change your mind one day." When I have no savings. Which is sad...
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
You know, even while cleaning up a poopy paint mess, and wanting to scream, I still had the little part of my that said "In a little while, this is going to be funny."
And it is.
Maternal instinct is a funny thing. It isn't as automatic as some people might think, nor is it some neverending font of loving children.
My maternal instinct is gone, now. I don't know what happened to it. I spent all my teenage years to about 3 years ago being baby hungry and loving to hold babies and I don't anymore. I love children, and am fascinated by them, I love volunteering in the schools, but I'm no longer baby hungry. It is kind of sad, but life is what it is.
[ January 29, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Icarus and Cor are indeed strict. And their daughters are wonderfully well-behaved in public. And they get disciplined in public all the time.
Here's what I think:
Family venue (family-style restaurant, amusement parks, kid movies), relax and have fun with it. The kids are often the best part of the show, so enjoy it!
Public venue (public street, stores (even toy stores), restaurants with table cloths and where the wait staff don't wear polyester uniforms or name tags, church) I expect parents to discipline their children quicker than they might at a family place. And I expect the kids to be removed from the place if they can't be disciplined effectively in situ. I think it's important to look at the age of the child and how many other kids are there in the group. You can't expect a single parent to remove everyone because one is crying. It's too hard. And they can't leave the toddler at the table while taking the infant outside. But if a reasonable expectation of quiet exists, I think the parents should at least try. Leaving the table without parental approval (and perhaps escort) is just not to be allowed and the offending child must be disciplined.
Formal venues where people are paying to be there (expensive restaurants, live performances of theater or classical music/opera, clubs, etc.): leave the kids at home. At least until they are older and have demonstrated proper manners. If a child is there, I expect them to behave as ladies and gentlemen or to be silenced immediately AND taken away. No exceptions here for beleaguered over-tired parents either. If it means the whole family has to leave, then so be it.
This is pretty much all by observation, by the way. I think most people make allowances for extraordinary situations (tantrum, single parent with a large brood). I also think most parents are pretty much trying to moderate their kids' behavior according to the situation and type of environment.
Mrs. M. Sending the kids out to the car alone used to be the default option. I grew up that way too. Nowadays you'd lose your children to Social Services if you did that. They must be under adult supervision, so people with more kids than adults have a problem.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Amka, I apparently found your lost maternal instinct. If you would like it back and can figure out how I can get it to you, please let me know.
I thought I didn't want more than two kids. I was sure of this while I was pregnant with my daughter -- I did not have a good time being pregnant. I was still sure of this up to the time my husband got snip-snipped. A month later, another baby started to sound good...and now, over a year later, I'm looking at a pregnant runaway teen at church and scheming how I can convince her to let me have her baby when it comes. (Of course, I will do no such thing...but boy, the temptation is there, let me tell you.) I start to cry when I hear stories of kids who aren't wanted. A part of me screams "I want them! Give them to me!"
So please, if I could just send you your maternal instinct back, I would be most grateful. Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I agree that there is a time and a place for children, and that they need to be kept in line by their parents in public places.
That being said, this thread struck a chord with me because, in the US, there is so much intolerance for children being out in public even when they are well-behaved.
An example: When my daughter was 4-months-old, we went back to stay at the bed-and-breakfast we had stayed at after our wedding. My daughter was perfectly behaved, slept all night, and in the morning, the other people staying at the bed-and-breakfast cooed over how cute and well-behaved she was. Then the proprietor came up. After remarking that the baby was very cute, he stated that the next time we came we should leave her home. We never went back to that place again.
The above story sort of relates to the kind of attitude that Olivet is tired of, and what I am trying to illustrate:
quote:I'm just tired of getting looks from people, directed at my kids, for doing nothing other than just BEING. Not to mention be compared to criminals.
What bothers me about Mrs. M's remarks is not the idea that some places should be child-free, but the tone she takes:
quote:I'm sorry, but I vehemently disagree. I think that most parents are NOT considerate when it comes to how their childrens' behavior affects others in public. It's gotten to the point where Andrew and I avoid family restaurants and go to the latest showings of movies that we can.
First of all, I disagree that most parents are inconsiderate. I think that most parents are doing the best they can, and can't always control when their children act up in public - but if the children do, and can't be calmed, they should be taken out. My son could never be taken to a restaurant when he was little, he just couldn't sit still that long, so we ended up doing a lot of take-out. And, as has been pointed out above, family restaurants are for families. Maybe you need to find different kinds of restaurants, if you want them to be childfree.
I agree that toddlers shouldn't be taken to adult movies, but a sleeping infant is oblivious to what is going on, and could be taken - but, again, should be taken outside if crying.
quote:Honestly, I haven't really noticed any misbehaved children in public places. Misbehaved parents, all the time.
Yes, I agree with you, Scott.
quote:No, Mrs. M is targeting all parents except Olivet. quote:
Olivet, I think that you are the exception, bless your heart. The lone exception.
This comment is the only thing that I found especially rude in this thread. And I did find it very rude and tactless. I think that the majority of parents are doing their very best.
Yes, I agree with you, solo.
Sometimes, parents are just stuck in public places with an unhappy child and not much they can do to fix it. A case in point: We were in an airport, on the way home from a trip, waiting to catch our plane. My son, then a toddler, chose this moment to have a massive temper tantrum, and nothing would calm him. An airport employee from the upper level came down and asked me, "Can't you make him shut up?" Having tried everything to do just that, with no success, I responded disgustedly, "No, can you?"
That's my two-cents worth, for now.
**Ela**
[ January 29, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Y’know, Banna, that story reminded me of something. Whenever I go somewhere expecting to have a long wait (generally waiting for a bus or a train) I bring my juggling things. It passes the time and hey, I don't practice enough as I should. I'm stunned by how often parents drop their children off with the "nice juggler" and then go off to do God-knows-what. Especially unsettling when my train comes and I really *have* to leave. What do I do with the kid? I kinda feel responsible but at the same time, who does that? And what if I wasn't a "nice juggler" but was a "pedophile juggler". And yet, it happens ALL the time.
Parents. Yeesh. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Bob, that's just plain stupid. (Not you, the parents.)
Banna, forgive me, and maybe I read what you wrote wrong, but if you didn't want the baby anymore, why didn't you just say so? My little daughter (now not quite 2) loves being with other people, and I've slowly learned that many people enjoy her company too. At church, she makes the rounds, and I'm more than happy to take her back from whoever has her (Ross or I always know where she is) but I no longer hover over that person to make sure they're okay with keeping her. They're grownups, they can say they don't want to hold her anymore. If she gets unruly and starts misbehaving, I take her back right away. Could it be that the baby's mom just assumed you still wanted to hold him?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Wow, a very interesting thread to read. It warms my heart to hear all of your stories and comments. My wife and I were never against seeing kids before we had our own, but we were perhaps a bit too harsh in our judgments of their parents' discipline strategies. Now that we have two, of course, we are much more forgiving.
The last time we took our kids to a fairly nice restaurant, it was kind of unplanned because my manager decided our team should go there to eat that day, and I had planned to meet my wife and kids for lunch, and Erik was only a few months old, and so we decided just to consolidate our plans and bring the kids along. As it turned out, Erik slept through the whole meal in his carseat, and Emily lay down across our laps and slept through the whole thing as well. I had to lay a (thin paper) napkin over her head so I wouldn't get rice on her, because I couldn't lean over the table to eat.
But our version of Eating Out is usually Mickey D's, where there's a big PlayPlace (which Emily refers to as "the adventure"). Or we just get take-out or order pizza. We go to nicer restaurants only when we have a babysitter lined up (barring strange circumstances). I'm sure that's how most parents with very young kids do it.
For us, the big "public" discipline test is a weekly occurrence--church on Sunday. The first hour is Sacrament Meeting, where the whole family attends. And it is an endurance test. Emily, who is almost 3, still gets restless and hard to hold on to. I mean, we try to keep her fairly still and busy coloring or playing with a quiet toy, but it is physically exhausting to hold on to her when she wants out. We do our best to remind her to be quiet, and we spend time talking about it with her at home. But she just doesn't have the patience to be still and quiet that long. So we do the best we can, and try not to be disruptive. And we have spent many meetings in the foyer with our kids, helping them calm down. Luckily, Sacrament Meeting is a time when nobody is surprised if your kids flip out. Despite the parents' best shushing efforts, it is a fairly noisy meeting when 10 or more families in the chapel have small children. But nobody will tell you not to come to church because you have small children.
Thank goodness for Nursery, which we can take our kids to beginning at 18 months old. It lasts the final 2 hours of our church meetings, and features toys, activities, and snacks, plus around 4 adults to take care of things. Emily loves Nursery. We are looking forward to Erik turning 18 months, which is still 8 months off. With the kids in Nursery, we can enjoy our "adult" meetings as adults. Until Erik is 18 months, we have to trade off keeping him in meetings, and usually end up roaming the halls instead to keep him quiet. That's just the way it goes with kids.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: Could it be that the baby's mom just assumed you still wanted to hold him?
Yes it is possible but this is an assumption I have problems with parents making. I find all to often most parents I meet think I want to hold little Joey etc, because he's so cute, how could I not want to? Especially since I don't have kids, because of course I want them. I've had parents get offended when I give the kid back, especially if they see no reason why I shouldn't continue to hold said kid. It isn't my child, it is theirs and yet they have made me responsible for it and get upset when I give the responsibility back to them.
Like I said, I have the utmost respect for parents and know that it is difficult. However they chose from their actions to bring the baby into this world so, it is their responsibility not mine. One of the main reasons why I don't have kids is because I don't want that responsibility! I'm not talking about a formal babysitting arrangement here, I'm talking at a church function or general gathering where these assumptions get made all to frequently.
AJ
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Bob, I know what you mean. I take my kids sometimes to a big public library a good distance from here. We don't go there often because of the long drive, but sometimes we make the trip because they have a bigger selection of books for me and an awesome preschool play area.
Now, the preschool play area has signs posted that children cannot be left there unattended. There are two librarians in there, but they're not babysitters. I've never left my kids there alone, when I need books I usually bring a list with me and go pick them all up before we go to the preschool area, then I can read some while they're playing.
One of our favorite things about this library is the puppet collection. A huge bin on the floor overflowing with every imaginable animal puppet.
I love puppets. I love playing with them, I can't resist them. Usually I wind up on the floor, surrounded by puppets because my twins keep handing me one after another "Make this one talk Mommmy!" I normally draw a crowd, and I wind up playing with a bunch of kids. Kid will flock to any adult silly enough to sit on the floor and put a stuffed animal on their hand and talk in goofy voices.
It appalls me when parents just sit their kids down near me and walk out! Just leave their kids with me, and go. They don't know me - I'm not wearing a tag identifying me as working for the library and even if I did work for the library, that's no excuse to leave them.
I'm amazed at people's trust sometimes. The preschool area is open to anyone walking through, it is set apart with a door that closes for sound, but there is no security to speak of. A pedophile could come in and pick up kids and walk out with no parents knowing because they were busy browsing shelves. That's just so scary!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Nope, it's important for the families to be together and the kids to be there.
Having said that, one of my absolute favorite things about singles wards is the silence during the sacrament. It's perfectly silent, and I love it. I have a hard time in family wards now because of the contrast. I usually sneak off after the sacrament to one of the empty classrooms to listen - it's easier to pay attention that way.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: but I no longer hover over that person to make sure they're okay with keeping her.
See the fact that you were hovering in the first place is a huge difference from the casual attitude I am critquing that I have seen displayed (by some parents, not all by any means)
It is the attitude of the parents, "oh we're handing you this kid so we are no longer responsible at least temporarily for anything having to do with the kid and can forget we have a kid for a while", that I am talking about. Like I said, it would be different if I was an actual baby sitter, but I am there to participate in the same event the parents are there for, and have no desire to be stuck with an unsolicited kid, just because I am childless. In such situations I have even gotten yelled at for not changing the kids diapers, even when I had no idea where the diaper bag was.
AJ
To tie in to Belle's example, while I'm sure she enjoys entertaining the children, it would be like one of the parents in the library that dumped their children off with her coming back and becoming upset because how dare she take her children and leave without looking after little Johnny too. Belle being the compassionate individual that she is probably makes sure that little Johnny finds his parent before she leaves, and I, because I'm not an ogre, would too. But it is an imposition from inconsiderate parents that annoys me.
[ January 29, 2004, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Another stupid parent story:
At one point, Vladimir was the manager of the toy department at Walmart. This was at once the coolest and the most hellish department to have. He actually heard parents tell their kids to 'Stay here and play with the toys while I shop.'
Another time he found a kid on a riding toy, crashing into things. He asked the kid to please get off, the kid replied that his mother (another case of toy department drop off) had said it was okay.
But I think these are generally the exceptions. Things that extreme didn't happen every day. And every day, hundreds of parents with their children came into the store.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I used to get this little girl named Kirsten, who is Robert's age, coming over all the time. She lives in the neighborhood, and I have a lot of kids over sometimes-- neighbor girls, mostly.
But anyway, she'd just come up here sometimes-- she even got off the bus with Robert once (not a big deal, really as their stops are within sight of each other). Sometimes she wouldn't even be wearing shoes. At least twice, the mom came driving up and asked for her. The woman was newly divorced with 4 kids and a job to support them and all, and Kirsten tended to just leave and not tell her where she was going or anything.
Sometimes, her brother and sister would come, too, and they'd all play, but I made a point to call the mom and make sure she knew where they were (evidently some of this was while her teen was supposed to watching them). I walked her home a few times.
Then, just recently, we saw someone had lefttheir bicycle in our yard. We left it there, nearthe road, hoping someone would claim it. No one did. Then one of the neighbors moved it into our bushes, obviously thinking it belong to us and we were trying to make the neighborhood look trashy.
So, to clear things up, I moved it to directly beside our mailbox and put a big note on it that read: "If this is yours, please take it home. If you know who it belings to, please tell them to come get it. Otherwise it will be donated to charity next week."
Kirsten came up and told us it was hers. I was glad. She rode it around in our driveway for a bit, then went home WITHOUT IT. *sigh*
A week later I dropped it off at her house.
That might sound like a story of neglect, and it may have been, for a while. But I do know that that mother was making a huge life adjustment, and so were the kids. I still see them at the bus stop in the mornings (Ron and I are the only hold-outs that still wait with our kid at the bus stop, though there were many of us the first few months of school. It's colder now, and I confess that it's usually Ron, but I do it when he can't). I try to take the 'walk a mile in my moccasins' approach, and help where I think I can.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Thank goodness for Nursery, which we can take our kids to beginning at 18 months old. It lasts the final 2 hours of our church meetings, and features toys, activities, and snacks, plus around 4 adults to take care of things.
Ruth and I just got called to the nursery/primary (they're combined because we only have a couple primary-aged kids). I'm a little scared . . .
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I praise God that our church has paid nursery workers, so I don't have to ever serve time in there.
I do however, help out with the older kids when they need me, I'm kind of the last minute substitute if you really truly can't find anybody else.
Children's ministry is not my calling. We all have our gifts, and that is not one of mine.
Now, if I could just sit down and play puppets with them, sure - but they want people to actually teach them something and then do crafts with them. Not for me.
Give me the teens,and adults. I work much better with people I can reason with and don't need my help to go potty.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I love to do the crafts thing with kids. Even bunches of them. Ron also loves amusing the kids, though Our neighbors may wonder why their kids come home quoting Monty Python...
"Your father smelled of elderberrys!" and something about an "electric donkey bottom biter".
I have not worked in a church nursury since I caught Chicken Pox from a baby when I was a teen. Had it over Christmas break, no less. No. I love kids, though. I love the whole ordered-chaos, cat-herding excitement of having lots of kids over. But my limit is usually a couple of hours. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Sorta related
Banna-
If you don't want to hold the kid, wave your hands, looked scared, and say, "Oh no, I drop babies." One woman I know says that, and I'm never offended. I don't know if she's lying or not, but at least she didn't say "Get the stupid ugly thing away from me."
I lived with a cousin and her parents when I was a teenager, and she used to hand me her three-week-old baby, then leave. Gone. She'd go off and have fun and never ask if I wanted the baby or anything. Once she actually took the baby from it's father, saying "Oh, Maureen wants to hold her" which I never said. Then the two of them took off. That was irritating.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
My wife was just recently released as one of the nursery leaders. She enjoyed it, I think, but was glad to be able to go to Relief Society again. I spent plenty of time in nursery until Emily got used to the idea of me leaving and her staying. It took her about 7 or 8 months. Nursery is such a peaceful, relaxing place, even when there are 15 kids running around wild with a trunkload of toys to play with. It's just peaceful. It's fun to watch the kids playing, and I admit it's fun to get out a few toys myself and tinker with them rather than sitting in Sunday School.
Good luck, Jon and Ruth! I hope you enjoy it!
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Jon, nursery duty is the best! Even when someone's crying, or messy, it's still better than listening to our ::yawn:: former engineer of a pastor talking. But then, maybe you have a better speaker to listen to.
Just be careful, my wife used to get upset when all the kids (which she had been watching for a while without me) liked me better.
Edit for goofy mistakes. I hate it when my brain is ahead of my typing.
[ January 29, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: TheTick ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So, now that BtL has broken the ice, there's a little more support for many parents being nuggetheads, I see.
Let me add my own little anecdote. I used to work at one of the large book chains. This chain often has a children's section with a vcr and seats for children to sit in. It was never explained to me, but I assume this was so the parents could leave their children there to watch a vcr and go book shopping. No attendant or anything, mind you, and it was smack dab in the middle of the children's toys and books.
I have to admit that this was a pretty stupid idea on the company's part. The children are supposed to just sit there and watch the vcr and not play with the toys? Right. So, I fully admit the company was kind of daft in how they arranged it.
The thing that gets me is how few parents actually bothered to have their children put the stuff back on the shelves or cared that their kids took stuff off of the shelves. I mean, it should have been pretty clear to *adults* that the stuff on the shelves was not for playing with and was merchandise. So, I'm not sure what the parents were thinking by letting their kids play with the stuff. Going back to what BtL and Belle were saying, I'm not sure why the heck parents would just leave their pre-school kids there. But then to not have their children put it back and leave the mess they made? That just strikes me as kind of uncivilized. :/
I think a lot of people are being rather harsh on Mrs. M.. Even if it wasn't clear in her initial post, she made it perfectly clear in subsequent posts that she is talking about the retardo parents that don't parent. I think it's clear from the last few posts in this thread that this is something that we can all agree is not a good thing.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
PSI thanks for the idea. Unfortunately I did drop the kid (though not from a great height) that I referred to at Steve's family holiday get together. So I wouldn't even be lying!
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Jon Boy, my friend Molly had that calling until she got pregnant, when they called her to YW.
You know what that means. There's only one way out...
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:Ruth and I just got called to the nursery/primary (they're combined because we only have a couple primary-aged kids). I'm a little scared . . .
I'm in nursery now, and it's fun! We sing, and have conversations about doggies and kitties and ice cream, and make silly faces and silly noises, and pretend to be a train, and build things with blocks, and read stories. (I highly recommend The Complete Adventures of Big Dog and Little Dog by Dav Pilkey.) The kids also like to be swung up into the air while I shout "It's the Amazing Flying [kid's name]!"
(Once I collapsed in the floor in mock exhaustion after swinging some kids around. One little girl announced, "Hey, she's dead!" She started piling plastic toys on me. I have no idea why. I started to get up, but she informed me, "No, lay down. You're dead." Then some of the other kids started piling toys on me. Then we all just busted out laughing.)
I'd much rather hang out with the toddlers than with the uptight ladies in Relief Society.
(I have no kids -- is THAT why they put me in nursery? )
[ January 29, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Nursery is not my calling. Our church nursery takes 4mths to 2 years and while that age is very nice when it's your own, with other people's kids, I find it absolutely mind numbingly boring. In fact, I think other people's kids start to get interesting at about 2nd grade. Younger is okay, and I have fun with them, but at about 2nd grade, we can really start having some fun.
I *really* like children's ministry. I never thought I would, but I have such a good time with them I almost always enjoy it, even when they are little monsters. I don't have time to do it every week, but our children's ministry is always short handed, so I'm on the sub list rotation. I end up teaching Sunday School for some grade school age at least once a month. That means I never get the same kids twice in a row, and they have to test the boundaries and see how much nonsense I'll put up with. It sounds horrible, but it presents an invigorating challenge, and I always learn something.
Banna, I second what PSI said...when a person says "Hey, she's cute, but she looks best right where she is." I don't take it personally. I'd just as soon only give Rayne over to someone who wants and enjoys her company. I also don't mind at all, and in fact expect, if Rayne needs changing, that she be returned to me so I can do it. Whoever yelled at you was way out of line.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Jon Boy, my friend Molly had that calling until she got pregnant, when they called her to YW.
You know what that means. There's only one way out...
Seriously, though, I think it'll be fun. Ruth has gobs of babysitting experience, so I know she'll do well. I've never had to take care of babies before, so I'm just worried about not knowing what to do when they cry and stuff. But I'm sure it'll be good experience for the future. . . .
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
If you two ever want to babysit the Poyfairs you've got a job.
[ January 29, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Trogdor the Burninator ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
<This space used to contain a playful dare for Trogdor to tell a joke, but it didn't work. >
[ January 29, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Advice for Robots, your post reminded me of my own childhood. I have very clear recollections of being punished every Sunday during and after church for all manner of misbehaviors. None of which I can recall. I do recall asking every week if I'd been good that day. Like I really didn't know.
And the fact is, I remember NOT knowing if I'd been good or not. I must've been 4 or 5 years old. something along those lines -- able to communicate well enough, but clueless as to the rules and that I had it in my own power to choose to obey them or not.
My god! Raising children must be really difficult.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
um... kids?
and dog and two cats...
**skips back a few posts to make the edit**
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*blink*
I'm not sure what exactly to say, but I feel that I should say something.
See, parents who have an incredibly difficult time controlling their children (either from behavorial issues, mental illness, or both), most often come to my agency.
I get assigned to a case to work with the child in the community to start behavior management of the child's symptoms (temper tantrums, temper outbursts, impulsivity, ability to accept limits, etc). Basically, I PURPOSEFULLY take a child into a situation that he or she has a hard time with. Why? Because they have to begin to learn to accept limits and/or learn to manage symptoms. When some progress is made in the community (talking small steps), I also work in the home with the parents in modeling the techniques that have been successful with their kid. The thing is, a parent always knows their kid the best. I might have all kinds of training and experience in behavior management, but a parent is almost always the authority on their child (aside from the child himself).
Anyway. In vivo learning is a very, very good tool. Not all techniques will work in all situations. Sure, redirect a kid, but if he's pissed off enough, he won't buy it. Or if he's too upset, he can't think of anything else and won't pay attention. Sometimes kids are tired and misbehave because they can't quite communicate that they're tired and need to rest or don't WANT to be tired or need attention.
I completely agree that parents shouldn't bring children to inappropriate movies (hell, I saw gremlins when I was seven and had nightmares for a month...and I'm STILL afraid of the dark! o_O ). I agree that children should be left home with a sitter at times for certain restaurants.
But to generalize that parents don't care or aren't trying?
I work with parents from across the spectrum. Even the parents that are reported from DCYF ARE trying their best with their kids. Parents make sacrifices I can't even begin to fathom. They get tired and drawn and worn out and they can't take a break because the children are THEIRS.
And kids are their own person with their own wills and their own personalities. There are can outstanding parents with a "bad" kid and incredibly horrible parents with a "good" kid (I wonder if I'm an illustration of that? *shrug*).
I've also gotten looks and comments when I'm out in the community with my clients. I look..well, not my age (24 in case you don't already know). My youngest client is 4, my oldest is 17. The looks occur with the younger ones, obviously.
The four year old isn't potty trained. Not because he isn't able to do it, because he doesn't WANT to do it. And not because his parents weren't trying their BEST to train him. This kid is incredibly stubborn (Maybe that's why I got assigned to him, I can out-stubborn him ). He got pissed at a bowling alley because the wait was 45 minutes and we didn't have time to wait that long. So he decided he wouldn't leave.
We started the redirection. Then onto limit setting, giving him choices. Finally, I said, "You're leaving right now," took him by the shoulders, and took him out of the alley.
I can't even begin to explain my most trying client. Once, in a park, he decided to strip naked, then tear off across a field, through the woods and to some train tracks. He was eight at the time.
I have no idea WHY he did it. Neither did his mother. But this happens to parents. Kids do things that are inexplicable and are hard to react to and try and strategize on what the heck to DO with this savage.
The parents I work with know that their children have behavior problems. They've no idea (or very little at the start) how to begin to manage it. But every single parent I've worked with has expressed, more than once, that they are embarrassed, sorry, and feel so bad that their kids act the way they do, especially towards me.
And they're always confused when I say, "I WANT him/her to show me those behaviors."
But there are unacceptable situations to bring children into, aside from life's limitations. A rated R movie or a fancy restaurant (with littler ones), sure. But to generalize that parents don't give a crap, don't care, or have no idea what they're doing? That's crap.
Parents are people, too.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
*sends mac kisses* That was wonderful, mac, thanks so much for writing it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
And that is why I luvs me some mack! *huggles*
Oh, and mack, you better BELIEVE you are!
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
preach it, mack -
I know folks think I am too strict with Nathan, but honestly, all my "training", "reading" and professional help/advice have shown one thing - he responds to physical stimulus. Period. Time out rarely works, reasoning is ridiculous, grounding has no effect, taking away privileges, offering privileges, etc - nothing. Thank GOD he's generally extremely well-behaved. But when he chooses to act up - that's it. And I don't like getting to the screaming level because then I've lost it.
I don't remember who said it, but he/she was right. I swore I would never yell at my child, make my child eat or take a nap, spank my child, etc.
Guess what . . .
Ahhhh - the joys of parenting.
All humans, big or ittle, are sooooo complex and different. Ya gotta love 'em - and ya gotta do what works. And hopefully, you'll achieve both without radically ofending 9/10's of the population.
But you know - it's okay by me if I do. My mother was offended that I wouldn't reinforce "no" with slapping. Instead I chose to "childproof" and allow safe areas for exploration. Most older women I knew (and quite a few younger) had numerous issues with breastfeeding, in public OR at home. The list goes on -
I just try to take into account the global picture. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I admit, even though we've gotten a little more light-hearted in this thread toward the end, Mrs. M's initial posts still rankle me.
I'm trying not to haul off with a knee jerk reaction though, and talk about other things, and then here comes mack....
I know we had a long thred some time ago (couple years maybe?) about whether or not someone who wasn't a parent could understand what it was like or was in a position to offer advice to parents. It got rather heated, with a lot of non-parents saying "I don't have to be a parent to know what's best for kids."
I don't want to see this go in that direction, but I do have to say that her insinuation that all parents are inconsiderate (with the LONE exception of Olivia) has still got me rather pissed.
Mrs. M - you don't understand. You just don't. You won't until you have kids of your own. Until then, you need to lay off or you're going to continue to offend a lot of people.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
HEY!!!!! What am I? Chopped liver? Mrs. M praised ME, TOO!!!!
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
<--non parent.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
I'm apparent.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Mack you're somewhat different that most non-parents dear. Your job requires you to be in the trying situations parents find themselves in, as you explained above. And, your job puts you in a position where you have responsibility and care and concern for your clients 24 hours a day.
Your situation is the closest one can come to the experience of a parent, I would say.
And Shan - sorry but Olivia was the one that was singled out as a lone exception.
*sigh*
This is my hot button issue. I'm probably more upset by her comments than I should be. See, I've been spending a lot of time lately considering ministry to young mothers. I've found myself in the position of exhorter, lay counselor, and shoulder to cry on for a bunch of overwhelmed, stressed out Moms lately. I just think there are too many people who look at them (and at me!) and say "She doens't have a job, all she has to do all day is take care of her kids, so why aren't they better behaved?" Unfortunately, these people have never been in our shoes and don't have any clue what it really entails.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Jeesh, Belle - page 1 of this very thread, Mrs. M says (and I quote):
quote: Shan, I am really impressed with your technique. I think it's something that all parents should consider.
Of course, my technique would probably send other parents through the ceiling, but hey! We all do the best we can, neh?
(Mournfully sniffs into her hanky - why's everybody always ignoring me?)
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Mrs. M - you don't understand. You just don't. You won't until you have kids of your own. Until then, you need to lay off or you're going to continue to offend a lot of people.
She doesn't have to understand what parents go through to be justified in bitching that many parents let their children run around all willy-nilly, endangering their safety and the safety of others.
And do you honestly think that she literally meant that Olivet was the only good parent in the entire world?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Because you don't have AIM and you aren't in Hatrack Chat.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
When you come over, mack and set the frigging thing up for me and teache me how to use it . . .
(Shan runs off to her room crying)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Paypal over airfare Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*Peeks around her favorite stuffed animal and blinks tearfully at mack - is that like an e-mail thing or do I actually have to submit information? Remember, we're dealing with a wee bit of paranoia here. Ask Icky - he couldn't even GIVE me money through that place . . . *
Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
Whoa, for get that...I got totally sidetracked.
Wrong post, wrong everything.
[ January 29, 2004, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: MaureenJanay ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I read this as "Chill-Free Theaters and Refrigerators."
Yeah, the theater I get, but that refrigerator thing threw me for a loop.
My personal way of dealing with strangers' rambunctious/crying kids in public places is to play peekaboo with either my hands or the nearest large object. Distraction is the better part of valour. Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
My four-year-old son is scary good. He says please and thank you, he's soft-spoken, he cleans up after himself. My other two are, respectively, active but not bratty, and quiet and good. Servers in restuarants tell us they're very well-behaved.
My husband goes to school after work every weeknight until 11 pm. I have to take my kids with me to my church callings.
When I was the assistant scout leader, the scout leader was appalled that I brought my kids to her house with me. (Of course, HER 4-year-old boy is the one who breaks toys and kicks little girls in the head in nursery). A couple of weeks into the calling, she informed me she had worked out a deal with another sister in the ward, that I'd drop off my kids with her (including the nursing infant, apparently) and take her son to scouts. I'm pretty sure she thought she was being nice; however, I wasn't comfortable leaving my kids with this sister (I have once before, my kids came back with bruises from the other kids and with stains on their clothes) so I politely refused. And the next Sunday, I was informed I was released.
Along the same vein, a sister I visit teach who is otherwise very nice grills me about having children. "You're not having MORE, or you?" (She has fewer children and a lot more money.)
And the sister in charge of enrichment, my new calling, is upset when I can't make it to meetings on weeknights because of my kids.(If one is throwing up, then the whole evening is shot.) She feels that if I can't do a church calling properly because of being a mom, I shouldn't have kids.
I almost want to get pregnant with twins just to spite 'em.
My point is, I think it's interesting how many people who ARE parents are still intolerant of children. Even in the LDS church, which is, theoretically, pro-baby.
Though I must mention how many kind sisters watch me sprint into church at 11:45 am, 15 minutes before it ends, and seem to read in my eyes that I've been up since 6 am trying to get every diaper changed and tummy full and body dressed and just didn't make it, and who simply say, "Hey, nice to see you. Glad you made it."
I'd also like to mention the time a few years back when my husband and I had just gotten assigned to a new town. We knew no one, we lived in a horrible little apartment, we were poorer than we are now, we were having troubles. We needed to get out. We went to a super-nice restaurant with our year-old-son. The servers all smiled and were so kind to us when we desperately needed it, we nearly cried in gratitude. We make a point of going back to that place (sans kids) every year.
Sorry, I do go on. I guess this is a hot-button issue for me, too. I think that, more and more, there is a divide between the family culture and the non-family culture, and even some parents I know (and go to church with) aren't into "the whole family thing" and avoid the trappings of parenthood as much as possible.
[ January 30, 2004, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Sachiko ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I appreciate your post, Sachiko. Nice to meet you, BTW.
Bob, we're pretty easy on our kids as far as their behavior in church. There's no punishment after church for their being restless. We do try to discuss it with Emily regularly, and we try to bring activities that will help her stay quiet. If Emily acts up, I take her out to the foyer, and don't let her go down to run around, and don't let her do anything until she asks to go back in and sit with Mommy. We're not harsh. If you ever attended an LDS sacrament meeting, you would find it rather on the loose, open end of Sunday services as far as structure and congregation behavior. There's nobody walking around with a stick and thumping people when they fall asleep.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Okay.
First, I didn't mean that Olivia is the only good parent in the world or on Hatrack and I have amended that post to reflect that. I think that every Hatrack parent is a caring mom or dad who does his or her best to raise a happy, healthy child who will grow into a happy, healthy adult. Never did I think that what I said to Olivet would offend others. When I wrote that post, it was very early in the thread and it was the last post I had read before typing my reply. My intention was to let Olivet know that I wasn't lumping her in with the parents I was referring to. The posts between hers and mine were written before I posted mine. I guess I forgot that I wasn't exactly talking to Olivet in private and that although I was addressing her, others would also hear what I was saying. I also thought that this thread would die out after a dozen or so posts.
I never meant to imply that any Hatrack parents are bad parents who don't care what their children do. I am truly sorry that people took my words that way. solo, ela, Belle - it never entered my mind that you aren't excellent parents, so I didn't think I had to say that I think you are.
I never meant this to turn into a child behavior thread. I just wanted to see what people thought about having a very few places that were child-free. I used that term deliberately, because saying adult-only has some, um, negative connotations. I don't want to ban children from entering public places. I don't want to change family-friendly restaurants. I don't want people to stop taking their children to movies. I just want one or two alternatives for myself.
Maybe if I share something personal, it will make my perspective clearer. I love children. Andrew and I desperately want to have children. For the entire time we have been married, we have been trying to conceive. We have spent a huge chunk of our savings. I have taken pills and shots that have taken their toll on my body and mind. We have given up bedroom romance for clinical techniques. Seven months after we were married, I got pregnant on our fourth try. Only people who have experienced infertility can know how ecstatic we were. I have never experienced such pure joy.
Try to imagine what it was like for us when I lost that baby. I hope none of you ever experience anything like it. The guilt and despair are overwhelming. I haven't been able to get pregnant since and every month that goes by, my already-slim chances decrease. Then there's the fact that I am accomplishing what Hitler could not and ending the Marx line (Andrew's grandparents are the only survivors from their families). Andrew's brother will never have children, so we're it. I am failing in my most basic duty to the person I love most in the world. There's not a day that goes by that that doesn't eat at me. Then there's the fact that several of my friends have had babies. I am genuinely happy for them, but it's hard to see them easily succeeding where I have tried and failed so many times. I want to share the experience of being a young mom with my friends.
The people who suggested that I am unsympathetic to parents are right. It's hard for me to have sympathy for any and every parent because I would gladly give all that I own to be in their shoes. I know it's unfair and unreasonable of me and I'm sorry.
Belle, it is hard for me to feel compassion for the problems of young mothers because it is my dream to have those problems. You overcame your PCOS to have 4 beautiful children. I am not so lucky and I probably never will be. Every time I see parents with their children I think, why them and not us? There are times when being around children is difficult for me and for Andrew. We realize that that's our problem and we try our best to keep it to ourselves. But infertility takes its toll on a marriage and there are times when we like to take a night off from the heartache. We're simple people - we like to go out to supper and to the movies. On nights like these, we don't want to be around children. We need to not be around children. I just want someplace where we can go.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Mrs M, I'm sorry I got snappy with you earlier in the thread. It seemed to me that you came out swinging and this topic really touched a nerve from me. It seems that the desire to protect my children can bring out the beast in me and that's not fair.
And for the record, I'd rather die than let my kids run around in a busy restuarant.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Like many of the other parents, I was offended by the initial post. Despite the fact that my boys generally get compliments on their public behavior, I am hypersensitive to the critical glances of those around us.
It's like the difference between saying to someone, "I'm fat," and a stranger coming-up to you and saying, "You're fat."
As a parent, I'm already so sensitive to the issues that it is something that only I can criticize in myself without feeling snarked at.
Because of this, I am very sympathetic to the struggling mother and grateful to the CT's of the world who make my kids like people.
I was a waitress for years and certainly spend alot of time now, out and about at both public places and in private homes. Only two things really irk me: 1)When the parents yell at, belittle or hit the child that has misbehaved and 2)When I see an unattended child who is younger than 10.
In both instances, I feel like I'm in a no win situation: Get involved and feel the wrath of the parent; don't get involved and fear for the safety of the child.
I think that we could go a long ways towards getting the kids out of the adult restaurants if there were more kid friendly restaurants that offered decent/interesting food.
I think it's a shame that you're forced to eat a greasy burger or bland pizza if you want to eat-out and let your kids have fun at the same time. Why do they only have play areas at places that serve lousy/boring food.
As a parent, I'd love to be able to go to a decent restaurant, have the kids behave like properly trained humans for 15 minutes until the order is placed; let them play for 30 minutes while waiting for the food; then have them sit and eat for 15 minutes.
If there were places like this available, you'd never have to worry about me taking the kids into an intimate restaurant.
Regarding theaters, I have been disturbed by cell phone conversations and rowdy teens many more times than by noisy children. Luck of the draw I guess.
I take my 8 yr old and his friend to the movies at least twice a month. We see PG and PG13 movies that fit in with what the kids know and like. I'll look at the content first and the rating second. Sometimes we go to a matinee, sometimes we'll go after dinner.
My kids are night owls. They stay up until 11PM on school nights and 12:30 on Friday and Saturday. They are happy, healthy, at the top of of their classes in school and on-time every morning. I mention this to rebut the idea that having a child up until midnight is child abuse.
In general, I just can't see banning kids from restaurants and theaters because they're a "nuisance". As has been said before, I've encountered more ill behaved adults than children and noone is offering me and my family a "jerk free" zone.
Sadly, I agree that those who don't want to be around children for whatever reason should have that right. I just don't want the only good theater or the only decent restaurants in my area to suddenly become off-limits.
Mrs M- I know so many people who have the exact same heartache.
One of my best friends of many years, started to avoid me when I had my first son. Hurt, I asked why. She said that it just hurt too much to be around my son. She said it was like putting salt on a wound and she couldn't put herself through that, not even for our friendship.
I can empathize with your point of view and I wish you the very best in your efforts to have a baby.
Posted by Pass the Sushi (Member # 6162) on :
I'm kinda split on this one...the movies is a no brainer. I would pay extra to not hear a kid whine. But restaurants...sometimes there is nothing better for me than making faces at a two or three year old as a date turns sour. But when they reach an age where cuteness has worn off and they can't behave y'know around 7 it gets annoying to hear a tantrum. My fiance fears the day we have kids because if they are like me they'll be easily entertained by anything...as in the stirring soap opera "All My Condiments." Sisters Salt Shaker and Pepper Shaker are involved in a love triangle with the tall, built Ketchup Bottle. While Detective T.(Tabasco) Sauce matches wits with criminal mastermind/business tycoon Sir Worchester of Saucery. Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I don't have much to add to what's already been said. We've been lucky so far in that Ryan has never cried or complained the few times we've taken him to restaurants. Even during a period where he was really fussy about eating (acid reflux), he was perfectly fine when we had to feed him at a restaurant once. And yes, I know, that won't always be the case. We will, however, take him out immediately if he begins to be a disturbance.
Mrs.M, I want you to know that your in my thoughts and prayers and have been for a while. My wife and I went through infertility, so I know what it feels like each time the results comes back negative and I know how painful it can be sometimes to be around babies. I can only imagine what it is like to become pregnant and lose the child.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
mrs. M, I'm glad you posted because after last night, I was thinking (I was in bed and couldn't sleep) and it occurred to me that your infertility problems might be one of the reasons you reacted the way you did.
I know about your struggle with PCOS and I do sympathize and I do know exactly how you feel. I should have been more considerate, and I should have had more compassion about your own situation.
I remember when I was undergoing treatment having to leave a party in tears because all the women there were excitedly talking about one woman's impending childbirth. She was nine months along and in fact she did go into labor late that night after the party.
I've moved past that - I'm beyond the frustration and pain of infertility and into the frustration that parenting brings. When I did that though, I should not have forgotten the pain I left behind.
You have my deepest apology for my lack of compassion toward you.
Posted by Sachiko (Member # 6139) on :
Oh. I'm sorry, Mrs. M. My heart goes out to you. I'm never sure what to say to those who have trouble having children. We have the opposite problem. I think it's a mixed blessing either way.
And if it's any consolation, I do know what it's like to lose a child.
Anyway, you won't be seeing my kids in any restaurants or theaters, not unless the city I live in builds a dollar theater. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs Mrs. M* Sweetie, I wondered if that was part of the annoyance. I like silence as much as the next person, but the baby-hormones aren't simmering in me, so I don't notice children. It's like when you're shopping for a car, all of sudden you notice the make of every car on the road.
quote:There's nobody walking around with a stick and thumping people when they fall asleep.
Except my home teacher. *looks guilty*
[ January 30, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Thanks for the kind words, y'all. They do make me feel better.
Controlling my envy of parents is something I work on. I realize that everyone has something that someone else wants. Some of my single friends were in that position when I got married. I understood why they were being snarky, but it still hurt. I've said to people, "Just because I'm married doesn't mean that my life is perfect and all my problems have disappeared." In this thread, the shoe's on the other foot and it never occurred to me to look at it that way.
Belle, my instinct was to be totally unfair to you (and to every other Hatrack parent). "Who cares if her feelings were hurt in Target - she got to go home with her beautiful children." "Who cares that young mothers are exhausted and worried - they have their babies to comfort them." I'm at the point where I (usually) stop those thoughts immidiately and tell myself, "Kira, that's not fair. Just because they have what you want doesn't mean that their problems are invalid." Some days it's just harder than others.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
Mrs. M,
Thank you for your gracious apology.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
So, the M in Mrs.M stands for Marx! Ah ha!
Another unintended Hatrack revelation.
Now, on to the "other" revelation. It is okay if we add our prayers to yours? I watched a cousin go throught this and it was just hard. No-one understood why she kept trying. And she eventually did adopt a beautiful girl who is every bit her daughter and her husband's daughter. But the process of getting to that decision was painful for everyone. And necessary.
Without it, our family wouldn't have X and she's the best kid we could've ever asked for. Bright, beautiful and charming. And she's just as much part of the family as any of the other kids.
I know you'll make a great mom simply because you care so much about it. I hope it happens for you in exactly the way you want. And I hope whoever enters your life, through whatever (legal) means, that it gives you great joy!
Posted by MaureenJanay (Member # 2935) on :
This isn't supposed to be disrespectful, but serious.
quote: Then there's the fact that I am accomplishing what Hitler could not and ending the Marx line (Andrew's grandparents are the only survivors from their families). Andrew's brother will never have children, so we're it. I am failing in my most basic duty to the person I love most in the world. There's not a day that goes by that that doesn't eat at me.
Actually, this reminds me a lot of Isaac and Rebekah...and you know how that turned out!
I don't know if you are a believer in that...sorry, I haven't seen a lot of your posts. But if you are, maybe that can give you a bit of comfort...but maybe you already thought of this yourself.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Mrs. M, I am sorry about your infertility problems, and all that you have had to go through. Losing a baby is very hard, especially after all that, too. I have to deal with moms who have lost babies, sometimes, in my job, and I have to admit that at times I am not quit sure what to say to them.
(((Mrs. M)))
I think that LadyDove's remarks here really pinpointed why some of us got offended or bent out of shape by some of the remarks made.
quote:Like many of the other parents, I was offended by the initial post. Despite the fact that my boys generally get compliments on their public behavior, I am hypersensitive to the critical glances of those around us.
It's like the difference between saying to someone, "I'm fat," and a stranger coming-up to you and saying, "You're fat."
As a parent, I'm already so sensitive to the issues that it is something that only I can criticize in myself without feeling snarked at.
As I said in my post, we live in a society that is often intolerant of children, and those of us who are parents have become hypersensitive to criticism, when most of us are doing the best we can, and trying to be considerate of those around us.
**Ela**
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Mrs. M, you seem to be generalizing quite a bit here.
You wouldn't remember the golden children who were perfect angels. They fly below your radar.
You are coming accross not as someone who is annoyed at children in restaurants, but of offspring in general. I don't think that you mean to come accross this way.
I agree with Mrs. M. So tell me, what did she or I say that was a generalization?
What is wrong with wanting one restaurant that isn't a circus? NOTHING. I wish I had one that didn't cost $50 a plate in my area. Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I caught about five minutes of Dr. Laura on the radio today, and the call she was taking at the time was a young woman asking if it was okay for her 18mth old son to wander around a bagel shop they went to frequently. Her son, I guess, was a picky eater, and the only way she could get him to eat much at all was to let him walk around with the food in hand. Well, a couple of men, also regulars of the shop, finally said they'd appreciate it if she kept her kid with her rather than letting him wander around.
Now, assuming this child is pretty low key and doesn't get into anything, I still thought this was ridiculous. Not the men. The mom. First, don't most humans, when hungry, eat? I have two kids, both of whom are good eaters, but I figured that part of that was that I was willing for them to go hungry if they were. If they don't eat at the meal, that's their choice. They might find something more to their liking at the next meal or scheduled snack. Secondly, when you give in to a child's weird eating habits when they are little, when does it stop? So he's 18mths old now, is she going to still be held hostage to his walking and eating habit when he's 3? 5? 10? At what point does he start to learn table manners? Does she think it's actually going to get easier as he gets older?
*shakes head*
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
(((Mrs. M))) I have a friend who is getting older and her own family think she doesn't want a baby and she is too proud to tell them. We talked about it the other night and it really rang with what you said.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
So I'm curious, what did Dr. Laura say to the woman with the kid roaming around the bagle shop?
AJ
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
AJ, honestly, I was surprised. She said that if the kid isn't doing anything other than looking at people when he wanders around, then it's okay and just ignore the two curmudgeons.
Personally, I don't think kids should wander around restaurants, even in a casual bagel shop. It's *such* a bad habit to start, and can be spectacular to break.
When my son was 3ish, he was SO unpredictable in restaurants that I finally decided that the best thing would be to have a training session. He needed to learn how to behave in restaurants. So I picked a restaurant that is *always* empty, largely because their food sucks. It's awful. We went one night when I was pretty sure Christian was going to be a monster. We were the only customers. When we got to the table, I offered him a booster seat or a high chair. He chose the booster seat, because he could get out of it. I told him that he could stay in the booster seat as long as he...well, as long as he stayed in it. If he got up, he'd have to sit in the high chair. The predictable happened, and I stuffed him into the high chair, where he proceeded to scream bloody murder for a solid half hour. My friend and I just ignored it and ate the awful food when it came. The servers seemed amused once they were clued in to what I was doing.
Long story short, it broke some of the worst of his habits.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
jehovoid![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
>![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)