quote:Hey neither do I, but you know what, Paul does. When did we get to decide what another person should want done for them. Paul specifically doesn't want people to pray for him. What I've read so far is that he's wrong, so people should pray for him anyway.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see the harm in it.
quote:Probably, but I'd ask him to sacrifice me some stuffing, too. And maybe some peas.
Let's say you just had something bad happen and someone said, "I'll ritually sacrifice a chicken for you. That will help you out." Would you be thinking the same thing?
quote:Depends. Are you going to sacrifice a chicken and stuffing for me?
Can you do that, Frisco?
quote:In my opinion, Paul, it harms you because you allow it to. Here is my not quite the same analogy.
yes, it does harm me.
quote:Adrian, you poor soul. While I'm sure you won't understand, I must pray to Satan for the recovery of your soul. I know you probably don't want me to, and we may not even like each other, but it's part of my role as a Satanist to pray for lost and uncomprehending souls like yourself. Someday Satan will save your soul, even if you can't understand why during your life.
And I know you won't understand this Paul, so it's probably pointless to explain, but I feel like it's something I HAVE to do. I think it's part of my role as a Christian, and something that God wants me to do. Sometimes I pray for people that don't want me to and sometimes I pray for people I don't want to pray for or even like.
quote:
Do you believe in hell?
quote:
You will when you get there
quote:
Let's put it this way, you belive in God all your life and you die, no heaven, no everlasting life, all that was wasted was an hour every Sunday and maybe some good deeds sprinkled here and there. But lets see the flip side, there is a God, well, you're gonna have whole lot of time to think about your mistake...
quote:Actually, this has been talked about here before. I think we determined it was actually related to hoping someone wouldn't catch the plague or something. I'll have to look it up.
For instance, something as small as "bless you" when you sneeze was connected with the belief that sneezing meant your soul is trying to escape
quote:To add to number two, also to make you feel like you are doing something wrong, are thinking/believing something wrong, or are a generally bad person.
There are two motivations I can see for someone to say "I'll pray for you."
1. They mean it as a form of comfort. Since they believe that having people pray for an individual will help that individual to cope with their problems, they believe that when you hear those words, they will give you added hope and strength. These people expect that even if you don't believe in the same efficacy of prayer that they do, you will at worst take their words to mean, "I'll be thinking about you," which for most people IS comforting.
2. They use that phrase as a means to make themselves look holy and spiritual. They say it to you, not so that you will feel better, but so that they will look superior to you. The more areligious you are, the more they gain from it.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I know you won't understand this Paul, so it's probably pointless to explain, but I feel like it's something I HAVE to do. I think it's part of my role as a Christian, and something that God wants me to do. Sometimes I pray for people that don't want me to and sometimes I pray for people I don't want to pray for or even like.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian, you poor soul. While I'm sure you won't understand, I must pray to Satan for the recovery of your soul. I know you probably don't want me to, and we may not even like each other, but it's part of my role as a Satanist to pray for lost and uncomprehending souls like yourself. Someday Satan will save your soul, even if you can't understand why during your life.
Now, I do dig Adrian and all, but maybe that attitude can come off as a wee bit self-righteous? Possibly obnoxious? Bordering on the amusingly self-absorbed?
quote:Belle, methinks you miss my point. For my part, I seriously doubt Satan's en route to steal your soul. But if I did, it's still -- to repeat what I said earlier -- ridiculously self-righteous and self-absorbed of me to not only believe I know better than you do about gods-related matters, but that my intervention's going to save you.
One more point and I'm done on this. I need sleep.
Lalo, if I don't bother Paul face to face anymore with my requests to pray for him - then what business of his or yours is it what I do in my private prayer life?
I would never want to offend Paul to his face, that would be a pretty poor Christian witness, doncha think?
I said I knew he wouldn't understand. And the fact that he doesn't believe in God anyway should mean that whatever I do in my prayer life is the same to him as if I chanted the ingredients of my breakfast cereal out loud.
Like I said, pray to Satan to save my soul. Means nothing to me because I know your prayer would be pointless. My soul is already spoken for, and Big Red can't touch it.
quote:(I think I picked this up from one of Belle's posts)
I would never want to offend Paul to his face, that would be a pretty poor Christian witness, doncha think?
quote:I'm big on pooka.
I'm big on soft answers in real life.
quote:I'm very much taken with pooka's approach in any case of uncertainty about how it will be received, whatsoever. "I'll be thinking about you" is a lovely way to communicate all that needs to be said.
I'm a more low key person. I know we're not supposed to be ashamed of the Gospel, but I usually say "I'll be thinking about you." If the person knows me very well, they will know that means I'm praying for them. I'm big on soft answers in real life.
quote:See, to me this sounds like only the beliefs of the spiritual people matter to you. If an atheist is uncomfortable with a Christian praying on their behalf, too bad. But if one Christian is uncomfortable with the prayers of a different kind of Christian, then it's okay for them to be miffed. How does that make sense?
There is a difference between doing something spiritual on behalf of a person who doesn't believe in spiritual things, and doing something spiritual to a spiritual person against their will.
quote:But I think he's saying that it does matter to him. He doesn't like it. It makes him uncomfortable. Why disregard these honest feelings?
To Paul, prayer doesn't matter. but to me, baptism does.
quote:That is EXACTLY what I thought of when I saw this thread.
I yellowed a light or two, and to be funny, I said, "I', trying guys, I'm trying! I even pinked a light for you."
katharina said , "We'll pray for your soul." I couldn't help but laugh. Then I said, "I hope you know you're one of very few people who could say that without getting a smack."
quote:Okay, Dana. But, would you pray for him?
Paul, I think an appropriate response would be, “No thank you” or “I appreciate the concern, but I’d rather you didn’t.”
quote:Maybe the trouble is that when someone is in pain, the way people give them condolences makes it feel like the well-wisher actually thinks their truism will make the wishee feel better.
I'm mean -- how do you WANT people with real concern to handle this?
quote:All of that to basically say, yeah I see why that makes you mad, Paul.
Mat 6:5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Mat 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees {what is done} in secret will reward you.
quote:IdemosthenesI, I don't draw the line where you do. As I mentioned before, there are clearly sanctimonious offers of prayer, and nobody here is really justifying that. But I don't think it is my (theoretically speaking, since I don't pray) responsibility to determine first whether or not you are receptive to the prayer before making a goodwill offer. When the shoe is on the other foot, when a Christian friend of mine offers to pray for me, even though I don't believe that this person's prayer will have any effect on me, I take it in the spirit in which it was offered. A friend (or stranger) who means well is offering what they see as a generous act. (Again, because it seems to need to be reiterated ad nauseum, I don't mean clearly sanctimonious offers.) I don't believe in the efficacy of the act, but I can and should appreciate the friendly intentions behind it, especially since it clearly does no harm. (Somebody raised this point earlier . . . What if Paul believes it harms him? Well, he has not said that. He has stated [as a fact, no less] that it has no effect.)
The supplicant should, before telling a friend he is being prayed for, know that friend well enough to know whether he will be encouraged by that knowledge. But for me to tell an atheist I'm praying for him does absolutlely nothing to either aid my prayers or encourage my friend. In short, I'm being an ass, trying to make myself look serene and spiritual at the expense of my friend's pain. [agreed --Ic]
Now if it's not a friend... i.e. if a complete stranger or casual acquaintance comes up and says he's praying for me, I first assume he's lying, and second couldn't care less. He has the right to pray for me, but no business telling me so.
quote:Whereas, I would say that you should not let them know if you KNOW they will not be encouraged by it, but that it's not your responsibility to find out first.
However, I believe you should ONLY let them know if you are SURE it will encourage them. If you aren't sure, then you would be quite correct in picking a more spiritually neutral encourragement.
quote:I understand, but here is where I think we go too far being PC. As a latino, I think it would be silly and oversensitive of me to be offended if somebody calls me hispanic. I don't think people have the responsibility to find out which descriptor of my ethnic heritage I prefer. If people know what I prefer and use something else deliberately, then that, of course, is rude.
its worth discussing, as many people consider the minimizing of offense important.
quote:I think that's a culture thing. In some religious cultures (like mine), it just isn't used often in regular conversation. It's been said a few times to me by other Mormons, and it brought tears to my eyes almost every time because it's sort of a big deal to say it.
Wereas, I would say that you should not let them know if you KNOW they will not be encouraged by it, but that it's not your responsibility to find out first.
quote:Huh. I don't know what the wording was, but anyone who would post it to an internet forum may not be a reliable source. But as the prayer ends in an "Amen" it is up to the recipient to ratify that with their own "Amen".
However, when the wording of the ceremony was mentioned here on hatrack, it was not phrased in this way, but as something that was being done for the person.
quote:Was that really necessary?
Protestants and their ilk
quote:rivka, what about people who believe that religion is harmful? There are certainly people out there like that.
I see a difference between doing something that is CONTRARY to someone's religion -- something they view as harmful -- and something they simply view as useless.
quote:Belle, I'm not trying to be rude, but would it be accurate to say that it all boils down to that you are assured that your way is the right way?
There is a difference between doing something spiritual on behalf of a person who doesn't believe in spiritual things, and doing something spiritual to a spiritual person against their will. To Paul, prayer doesn't matter. but to me, baptism does.
quote:You mean apologizing for having made someone uncomfortable, or apologizing for having prayed? Because I certainly don't think one ever needs to apologize for having prayed. I can see apologizing for having made somebody uncomfortable. But to tell you the truth, I don't think it's necessary in this situation either. If it were me (theoretically) and I found out after the fact that this was someone's--say Paul's--hot button, I would be more inclined to file that knowledge away for future reference. But to bring it up again might make Paul uncomfortable again, and in any case I would hope that he would be charitable, knowing that my intent was not to disrespect, but to encourage and demonstrate my sympathy, and simply blow it off.
Unknowingly harming someone does not, but subsequently finding out and then not apologizing does.
quote:I can see your point, Ic, but it's all relative. I'm not sure I have the best idea of your particular religious beliefs, but you must think that because in one way or another you are comfortable with the idea of prayer.
You mean apologizing for having made someone uncomfortable, or apologizing for having prayed? Because I certainly don't think one ever needs to apologize for having prayed.
quote:I was at the Southern Baptist Convention about 3 years ago. Had a brief chat with a Baptist Minister from Utah. He quoted me the scripture that, in his mind, justified saying that LDS members were NOT his brothers and sisters in Christ (i.e. he believed that they ARE NOT Christians). It was one of the reasons I decided that the Baptist faith was not for me. I realize he could be dead wrong in the eyes of every other Baptist on the planet, but the fact is, he was not. My own favorite minister gave a cogent and heartfelt testimony AGAINST ecumenicalism (ecumenism?) not more than 3 weeks later. In which he basically concluded that everyone who wasn't Baptist was making a grave error, and so a friendly dialog about our shared points of faith was not worth the time.
Mormons always get upset when people say they are not Christian, yes? Well, part of being Christian to me, is recognizing that anyone who says they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior is a Christian and is saved. That means that person could be Baptist, Methodist, Mormon, Catholic or undeclared. I recognize you as a brother in faith when you tell me you are a Christian.
quote:Then this is really about religion, and not so much about prayer. You don't want to be condescended to because you don't believe the way others do. And someone praying specifically for you to start believing in God is condescending. You don't want somebody trying to press their religion on you, especially behind your back.
However, this problem probably arises for a number of different people who believe in different gods.People who pray for muslims, or wiccans, or hindus, etc.
quote:Like many here, though, you have made up a scenario that may or may not fit all the facts. What if I am the one who told you about it?
1) you are assuming you know more about the situation than you really do -- right? I mean if they didn't tell you about it, how did you get your information? Rumor mill, usually. So...
2) You are letting them know that they and their situation have become a topic of "discussion" in the community, and that everyone things its bad, whatever it is.
quote:No. You are saying that you can't think of another way to help. (Or that you can and you are doing both, because you think the prayer will help too. You are displaying your assumption here that prayer is in lieu of something useful.)
3) You are also saying that you simply assume they need prayers. Like they couldn't possibly be working on an effective solution themselves.
quote:
Like many here, though, you have made up a scenario that may or may not fit all the facts. What if I am the one who told you about it?
quote:I think this pretty much covers it. If you tell me your problem and I think you are worth praying for, I'll certainly do it unless you ask me not to. If I know you don't like that kind of thing, I wont do it. If I don't know, I wont tell you and I won't ask. I think it's presumptuous.
1) Someone asks me to pray for them, I always do.
2) Someone asks me NOT to pray for them, I honor their wishes.
3) I think someone needs prayers from me, but I'm not sure of their religious beliefs: I don't ask, and I don't tell them, I just pray.
quote:A question, if someone wishes to answer: in the baptism for the living does the one being baptized say amen? If so, I don't find the "needing to respond with amen makes it optional" idea particularly convincing as an argument. It doesn't seem to be the case in this description of the ceremony: http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/respri2.htm (I don't know how authoritative that source is, but they certainly seem to have done their research; its a professor's research site at UU and they cite their references).
For a living person:
"Having been commisioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, [name], in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
For proxy for someone dead.
"Having been commisioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, [name], for and in behalf of [name], in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
quote:That's not metadata.
for and in behalf of
quote:Bobby -- you can pray for ME -- I don't mind
1) Someone asks me to pray for them, I always do.
code:CREATION OF EARTH
Tasked to: God
I. DAY ZERO
1) Heaven
2) Earth
i. without form
ii. void
iii. darkness on face of deep
a. Spirit of God
II. DAY ONE
1) Light (Day)
i. good
ii. divided from darkness (Night)
III. DAY TWO
1) Firmament (Heaven)
i. dividing waters, vertical
IV. DAY THREE
1) Dry Land (Earth)
i. waters gathered (Seas)
ii. good
2) Earth bring forth:
i. grass
a. seed
3. tree
4. seed (recursive)
ii. good
V. DAY FOUR
1) Lights in firmament
i. Lesser Light (Moon)
a. signs
b. seasons
c. rule the Night
d. give Light upon the Earth
ii. Greater Light (Sun)
a. signs
b. days
c. years
d. rule the Day
e. give Light upon the Earth
iii. Additional Lights (inc. Stars)
iv. good
VI. DAY FIVE
1. Waters bring forth Creatures
i. moving creature
a. has Life
ii. fowl
a. can fly in Heaven
iii. whales
2. Creatures blessed
i. fruitful
ii. multiply
a. Seas to be filled
b. fowl in particular
iii. good
VII. DAY SIX
1. Earth brings forth Creatures
i. cattle
ii. creeping thing
iii. miscellaneous beasts
iv. good
2. Man created
i. Likeness of God
ii. male
iii. female
3. Man blessed
i. fruitful
ii. multiply
iii. replenish Earth
iv. subdue Earth
v. dominion
a. fish
b. fowl
c. moving living things on Earth
4. Meat Substitutes
i. For Man
a. herb-bearing seeds
b. trees w/tree-yielding seeds
ii. For living beasts, fowl, creeping things
a. green herbs
5. Review and Inspection
i. Good
VIII. DAY SEVEN
1. Rest
2. Sanctify day of rest
quote:I don't think so. I could change my name, though.
Michael Savage (#55), is that you?
quote:A PowerPoint Bible? Is nothing sacred?
Hey Tom, where's that power point version of the Bible?
quote:See, we're back to you deciding to make the rules that God ought to follow. You don't see a problem with that?
I don't acknowledge the existence of revelation.
quote:PSI...those are the two weirdest similies describing God that I have ever seen.
I have to beat myself everyday to remember that God is who he is, and it's totally pointless for me to try and resist that. It's like those people who sat around with their sunglasses on watching the A-bombs go off. It's like putting your hand up to stop a speeding train.