I'm wondering what connections there might be between my metabolism and the chemical compounds I crave. There are certain things that I crave in my diet which I seem to thrive upon. When I have been without, I am grouchier and more tired. What are the following things doing for my body?
vinegar (acetic acid) salt (NaCl) Calcium Calcium Chloride Nitrates Phosphorous Vegetable juice (V-8 type)
Also, I crave caffeine, but only when I am migrainey.
Things I seem able to Do Without: processed sugars, fruit, bread
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's interesting Jenny; my wife has a metabolism much like yours, and she craves many of the same things you do, and wouldn't mind if she never had the opportunity to eat bread or fruit again.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
vinegar (acetic acid) salt (NaCl) Calcium Calcium Chloride Nitrates Phosphorous Vegetable juice (V-8 type)
V-8 is very high in salt.
Do you drink vinegar, or is this a dressing on potatoes? I don't know about the Calciums and Phosporus, but Nitrates tend to come in salty meats.
Each salt molecule requires 52 water molecules to be saturated.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Are you saying she needs to drink more water? Or just brainstorming?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I'm well aware how to get my chemicals. I love vinegar on fries. I also have been known to drink pickle and olive juice. I love the taste of the sea. Nitrates are usually considered horrible for you, but I love everything they're in. I'm ever so much happier when I have a high salt intake.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Jenny, do you have a tendency to low blood pressure and/or fainting? High levels of salt (in those who are sensitive to salt) and (I think) nitrates can raise blood pressure.
I know that while I'm usually not a big fan of salt, when I am pregnant (which causes my blood pressure to drastically drop -- I know, I'm weird ) I crave salt.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
My blood pressure is usually "perfect", but I get fainty sometimes when I exercise or exert myself.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Have you ever had your blood pressure taken when you had not had much salt for a few days? I wonder what it would show . . . not that I'm recommending any experiments! It just occurs to me that you could be self-medicating low blood pressure. (If so, it's clearly working! )
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The salt factoid is a brainstorming thing, suggesting that salt is not a biologically neutral substance.
The thing about potatoes is they are very glycemic.
Salt and Potassium are balanced in a healthy body.
Potassium is intimately tied to glycemic response.
So yes, your salt intake could be correlated in some way (caused, causing, or both) to your metabolism. Inability to gain weight certainly goes with adrenal stress.
But I'm not a doctor, just a diet head science geek.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Pooka, tell me more! This seems to be on the right track. I am hypoglycemic, and my favorite food is Mashed Potatoes with Lots of Gravy. Potassium, salt, etc.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I do feel that I self-medicate with food. I am very body-aware when it comes to cravings. I eat what my body tells me it needs. I eat greens when I want them, etc. But the salt thing seems to be really important.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Bumped, so that My Goddess will hopefully see it and comment...
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Jenny, my nutrition training -- like that of most physicians -- is absymal. I am busy taking notes from rivka [and pooka, especially!].
My area is kid stuff, and they usually eat what you put in front of them. I know the minimum daily requirements for children's growth and development (which is much less than you'd think), and beyond that, I usually offer only reassurance that as long as the minimum is met, the child should be fine.
The lack of any significant training in my field is a real detriment. I wonder if we have any nutritionists here at Hatrack? Do the pharmacists have some wisdom to share?
[ March 12, 2004, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Nuts! I guess this means you're not omniscient. But I think I like you better that way.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Very human, Jenny. Getting ready to ply my soul with a couple GS thinmints and a nice glass of soy. Mmmm, lunch. So healthy.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Or biochemists? Any biochemists in the house?
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Hey CT...can you tell me how much my daughter needs to eat? She's 12 months old, 18 pounds and freakishly smaller than everyone in my family...we're all very tall. She was very sick for a while and lived off pedialyte and crackers and she desperately needs to gain weight. I know one-year-olds shouldn't eat peanut butter but she loves it so much and it's one of the things she really craves so I'm trusting her with that. Should I stop giving it to her? What do I do??!
*pant pant pant* (My fingers are panting)
PS- If you think this will derail Jenny's thread I'd be happy to start a new one.
[ March 12, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
I'm almost certain tha BobTheLawyer is a biochemist of some sort, albeit from teh chemistry side of things.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
He sure is! Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
PSI, your best bet is a good discussion with your child's pediatrician or family medicine physician at the next well-child visit. (She should be due for one at 12 months.) Following the growth curves for her over time will give you the best information of all about how her body is handling its current stresses and resources.
Note that the AAP article lists peanut butter as a toddler snack. Since 2000, that recommendation is likely to have changed, as there is more recent concern that early exposure to peanuts increases the risk of developing a potentially dangerous allergy to them. However, see The Controversy About Peanut Butter from keepkidshealthy.com for a pretty balanced assessment.
*** One last important note: Toddlers today are apt to become juicaholics, which can drive such disorders as both constipation and chronic diarrhea, malnutrition and obesity. Often it is the calories obtained in liquid form (juice, milk, sodas, koolaid) which enables them to be picky eaters.
Try inventoring her fluids for a couple of days, and see just how many calories she gets from them. (It takes writing it all down carefully to really figure it out.) She might not be hungry for many solids because she fills up on fluids.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Thanks CT, as soon as I get this insurance CRAP all settled I might be able to take her to the doctor. If I'm lucky.
And don't worry about the juice. Milk and water first for our kids. One glass of juice a day. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Oh good grief, PSI, I'm so sorry about the insurance.
Take a good look at the first article & let me know if you want me to break it down further.
It might be worth weighing her yourself at home, only every month or so, until you can get in to see somebody. An adult can hold her on a regular scale, then subtract the adult's weight on the same scale.
Day to day variations matter little, but the big trends are useful to know.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Oh and what I forgot to say before is that she DOES drink alot of milk, which I had considered might make her eat less. But I was told there was no way for a child to get enough nutrition and energy from milk by this age, which is why they needed to eat solid foods in the first place. So why would she be content with milk, if she should still be hungry? I would expect her to stay hungry.
As far as the insurance thing goes, I've been having lots of trouble with it. It's state-controlled insurance with a very low premium, and they constantly drop me because of computer glitches which leaves me without insurance most of the time. It's very frustrating, because, for some reason, it always drops me right before my daughter's appointment. So, as a result, she's missed a lot of important appointments.
Anyway, ARGH!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote: But I was told there was no way for a child to get enough nutrition and energy from milk by this age, which is why they needed to eat solid foods in the first place.
They do not get sufficient nutrition for growth, but they can get a lot of calories, which supresses the hunger drive. Eight ounces of whole milk has 155-160 calories, so every 16oz glass of whole milk gives her about one-third her required calories for the day (about 1000 calories). Whole milk is recommmended for toddlers, but 2% milk (at 125 cal per 8 oz) is not much different in calorie count anyway.
That is, three large glasses of milk contain about all the calories she needs for the day, but that falls far below the nutrition she needs.
Try limiting her to 3 8oz cups of milk a day, and I bet she will eat more solids -- but you will have to wait her out through an adjustment phase. Believe me, though, if she gets hungry, she'll eat, and even sooner if you are very matter-of-fact about it. Don't make it a battleground -- distract her, change the subject, do whatever, but don't make limiting milk and eating other things associated with punishment.
[ March 12, 2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Hey Jenny, I’m actually just a lowly university student who's just getting off work now and won't be home in an hour or so.
Not quite sure what you're asking. Do you want to know what these things do for you? Because I'd be happy to answer that, but you *do* realize that even the Cole's Notes version is going to be really long.
Just quickly before I go:
I can tell you that salt hunger is common in all living things and is necessary to maintain homeostasis (which is the body’s ability to maintain a constant internal environment). You probably don’t think twice about thirst, which is something you feel when the body is getting low on water. The only way to replenish water is by drinking (and eating to a lesser degree). Conversely, when your body is lacking in salt you get a craving for the munchies. The centers for thirst and salt hunger are pretty close to each other in the hypothalamus. I should note that you crave salt to adjust your body’s osmolarity, not because you can no longer send signals along your nerves, or cotransport is failing, it wouldn't get to that point. Eating salt leads to an increase in blood pressure because more water must be added to the blood to maintain homeostasis. It’s an increase in blood volume not constriction of arteries that leads to an increase of blood pressure. I’m just going to leave it at this gross over simplification so I don’t ramble on for pages and pages about how salt and water are regulated and used in the body.
Other cravings that people experience are a lot harder to understand and are generally a combination of a multitude of factors, the least of which in any case may be physiological. I’m curious, is your craving for calcium and calcium chloride different? But, to be honest, I suspect most of your cravings are psychological. You’ve learned to like them and are now trying to rationalize it
Hope that was clear, I have to go catch my bus. Cheers!
Posted by Maccabeus (Member # 3051) on :
Lessee here...
Sodium and potassium are ions that are used primarily for nerve impulse transmission. In theory, a deficit of either could cause serious nervous system problems, but I can't quickly find any details. I see nothing immediately about nitrates, but nitrogen is a major component of all proteins. Phosphates are a critical part of the energy-storage molecule ATP. Calcium is also important to nerve impulse transmission. Chlorine is listed simply as the "major anion in body fluids"; although I can't recall its exact role it sounds important.
Basically, any and all of your cravings could be very physiologically important.
Oh, thanks, Bob...contradict me. Seriously, thanks for the update. It's been too long since I studied nutrition.
[ March 12, 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Maccabeus ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Well, I read something about Cushing's Syndrome once at the doctors, and so I came home and googled it and figure that's what my husband has. Though Cushing's syndrome is usually associated with overweight.
Cells have a thing called a sodium pump all over them. They work to maintain the electrolyte balances throughtout the body. So any changes need to be gradual or you may suffer massive fluctuations of bloating and dehydration. i.e. don't suddenly switch to that potassium Chloride salt. It says on it you shouldn't take it without a doctor's guidance. I saw it at the store once.
Sodium might seem to have a stabilizing effect on blood sugar because the cells may not let anything in if there is enough salt in the blood stream. The vinegar may be doing this as well if it results in an acidic environment. It's probably the same mechanism by which many known poisons become pleasurable addictions. Goodness knows I'm not innocent.
Edit: I'm pretty sure that one thing a USDA balanced diet gives enough of is sodium. It's not uncommon, with processed foods, to get 10 times what is needed.
[ March 12, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Jenny, If you are craving salt, but don;t seem to be bloating, you might be having some sort of kidney dysfunction. There are kidney problems which cause the body not to store salt. Liz
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Jenny, Didn't mean to be alarmist. I am realizing now that I am taking this from a recent family member's diagnosis, so take it with(I'm really sorry) a grain of salt. Liz
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
quote: Sodium might seem to have a stabilizing effect on blood sugar because the cells may not let anything in if there is enough salt in the blood stream. The vinegar may be doing this as well if it results in an acidic environment. It's probably the same mechanism by which many known poisons become pleasurable addictions. Goodness knows I'm not innocent.
Maybe it's just because it's past midnight, pooka, but I have no idea what you're talking about. Can you try and explain what you're saying again?
Posted by Snuffles (Member # 4332) on :
I think that migranes are when bloodvessels in your brain constrict, and caffiene expands those vessels, so your craving would be exactly what you need. A lot of the migrane medicines I've seen have caffiene in them, too.
Grr!
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
V8 vegetables with nitrate content in mg/kg(milligrams per kilogram) or ppm(parts per million) tomato 40 carrot 240 celery leaves2800 celery stalks 3500 beets 2400to3200* parsley 2500 lettuce 2100 watercress 2400to3500** spinach 2100
Typical daily intake of nitrate by an American adult is about 75 mg/day. Vegetarians may exceed 250 mg/day, or about 3.3 times as much as non-vegetarians.
* The differing numbers found on two different reliable sites. ** Based on watercress being grouped with the high nitrate vegetables such as beets and celery.
Back later with a bit more about this and the rest of your post.
[ March 13, 2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Thank you everybody! I do want to say that these cravings AREN'T pointless justifications for eating things I like. I notice significant mental and physical differences if I don't eat them. Mental sluggishness, tiredness, and occasional chest pains come when I don't have enough salts.
I'm most interested in what Bob the Lawyer and Maccabeus are saying.
My cravings for calcium and calcium chloride seem to be different. I need milk/spinach at different times than I need pickle juice/salt-n-vinegar potato chips. The nitrates, though, may just be a taste I've learned to associate with quick protein. However, I feel less sluggish when I eat nitrate-saturated meat than when I eat regular dinner type meats.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
OK, I did a search for salt cravings and kidney, and the search came up with Addison's disease. It seems to describe a lot of your symptoms:
Again, this is a thought that came originally from a family member who was diagnosed with a kidney disease. Her kidney does not process salt correctly, so she has to be sure to eat a lot of salt. This is NOT what she has, nor is it necessarily what you have, but just give it a read for kicks.
Post riddled with typos and edited.
[ March 13, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Am I really the only biochemist here? Uh oh. *takes off “Official Hatrack Wanker” hat* *puts on “Not-A-Real-Biochemist-But-I-Can-Pretend” hat*
If I may say, Jenny, I think some of these things are associations you've made. Like you've said with nitrate, there's no way you're craving nitrate. The human body can't use it (well, not for anything good) and ideally it'd just pass through the body unnoticed. There may be something in the foods that you're craving, but it isn't what you think it is. It’d be helpful if you said, “Sometimes I crave these foods (list). I think it’s because of this, could it be? If I don’t eat it I tend to feel like (x)” I hope that doesn't sound too condescending.
But, anyway, I'll try and get through some of the ones that you've listed and why you might be craving them. But, I should warn you, I have a terrible tendency to ramble. If something doesn’t make sense or you’re not sure what I’m talking about point it out and I will get back to you.
Acetic acid, I have no idea. Yes, the body can use acetate, in can enter the Krebb's cycle at any point (depending on how it's modified) and from there end up, well, anything. Such is the wonder of the Krebb's cycle! But, it's really inefficient to do this with acetate and there are plenty of other more common things you'd crave instead. Depending on the end result your body needs you'd go looking for sugar, protein, fats or something like that.
Now, I'm sure someone is going to make the case that you need it to regulate your body's pH, but I don't think that's likely. Between respiratory controls, renal (kidney) controls and natural buffers the body can take care of every day shifts in pH. If you were suffering from alkalosis it'd most likely be from some sudden, massive change, generally the loss of stomach acid or consumption of large amounts of bicarbonates. Unless you're bulimic or you regularly confuse flour and baking soda when you're cooking those options aren't likely. It is possible to have kidney conditions that cause you to lose too much bicarbonate (the body is buffered by a carbonate system). But if this were the case you'd notice. Not only because of the symptoms but also by being hyperglycemic I'm assuming you've had your urine analyzed at least once. This would be impossible to miss (if it were serious enough to be a problem). The thing is, most people get a lot of acid in their every day diet (from meat and fruit/fruit juices, etc.) minor metabolic problems are easily corrected by the sheer volume of acid people eat. I suppose I could say that if you’ve gone a day without eating anything acidic and you do have a metabolic disease that leads to minor alkalosis you might crave acid. But that’s merely guesswork on my part, so don’t go quoting me! If you’re craving vinegar and feel terrible if you don't get it you’re going to have to talk to someone more knowledgeable than me.
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) I crave salt.
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I wonder if we have any nutritionists here at Hatrack? Do the pharmacists have some wisdom to share?![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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