I don't smoke. In fact, all that propoganda the public schools send out actually worked on one person. I don't want to smoke, and I suppose that is good for me.
But for those of you that do smoke, why did you start? As one who was scared off, what compelled you to start?
I have been curious why some people start smoking and why some people don't.
For you who don't smoke, why do you not smoke? What scared you off, or made it so that you have no desire to touch a cigarette?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
My mother worked as a nurse where they zapped cancer patients with radiation as the lesser of to evils.
Nope, not inclined to smoke here. Not after hearing her talk about her work.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
My paternal grandmother smokes... She's the "best" example for me. She's not supposed to smoke, as her health is not very good, but she didn't quit and, apparently, isn't planning to. Same thing with my father's brother. Though he quit for some time and then got to it again.
So I'll never try.
Have never been drunk either - thanks to another "good" example, my maternal grandfather. Luckily, he was a "happy" person when he was drunk. And he eventualy DID quit drinking.
And don't even start talking to me 'bout drugs ! There I don't have any examples, but I really don't need any...
Just for the "fun", me and my brother made a deal: the one who starts smoking will "enjoy" a hell of a beating from the other. No defending allowed. Though that will never happen. (thank God, 'cause I have a blue belt in Karate and he has a brown one... Could get pretty messy )
So, if any of you needs to quit smoking and doesn't have a reason to do it, whould you like to join our deal ? Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Growing up a Mormon, I was disinclined to smoke. But while the idea of drinking and doing drugs certainly held some appeal for me, smoking never did. It always seemed disgusting, and never seemed cool.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I never smoked (well, at least not cigarettes -- and as for anything else -- I never inhaled!)<grin>
My dad smoked. I hated it - the smell of it, the dirtiness of it. Just never had any desire to smoke. I always tried to get him to quit.
Farmgirl
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
I have never had a smoking habit, but I have smoked on occasion. Luckily, I never found it addictive. Why did I do it? Honestly, and as pathetically as it sounds, movies of my teenage and early twenties years did make it seem cool to me.
-o-
My father does have a bad smoking habit. He quit when I was in high school, took it up again when his first marriage fell apart, quit when he had his quadruple bypass, and took it up again as his second marriage fell apart, or perhaps it was out of boredom caused by his health-caused early retirement. I wish he would stop, because I fear we won't have him around for very long--certainly not as long as we would like. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I smoked two packs a day for about ten years or so.
I really enjoyed smoking for a variety of reasons. I'm a very oral person who is always chewing on things and the like, so smoking gave me an excuse to have something in my mouth. I am also a very twitchy person. I rip the label off of whatever bottle of stuff I happen to be drinking. I chew my finger nails. Cigarettes were a kind of security blanket, in that sense. I liked the sensation of the smoke going into my lungs, the heat and fire of it. I liked seeing smoke come out of my mouth for reasons of movie cool, as Icarus mentioned, but also for some kind of weird aesthetic of my own. There used to be this really great quote from Tom Robbins regarding smoking and fire and the symbolism of it all that I loved. Maybe I'll dig it up. Then again, it would probably go over like a lead balloon here.
I quit smoking because my father had a triple bypass and because the girl I was dating at the time got me to get an x-ray of my lungs. It was already becoming apparent that damage was being done. Oddly enough, while I loved smoking, I also loved jogging and running and I didn't want to lose that ability. I could already feel myself getting short of breath sometimes. So, one week I basically lived in my girlfriend's apartment and played nintendo to keep my mind off of the cigarettes. I also used a nic patch and I was able to stop. Been off the stuff for about 8 years.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Well, I started smoking 6 years ago, when I was 15, and I still do. Why? One word: alcohol. Yep, I was drunk. When I drank any alcohol, I could smoke as much as I wanted to without coughing or choking. And I was at that age where I wanted to try everything (hence the alcohol), so there you go...
Meh...kinda dumb, eh? I should stop one of these days...
[edit: spelling]
[ March 30, 2004, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: digging_holes ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
To be completely honest, people started smoking when I was doing/not doing things in order to have moral superiority over my peers. Not smoking fit quite neatly into that category, as did a myriad of other things. I never would have admitted it at the time of course.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
My mother smoked. When I lived with her and my uncle she'd do it outside, but then she moved in with this guy and they both SMOKED and it killed me. I have mild asthma. If I smoked I probably wouldn't be able to breathe very well. Plus I refuse to pay 5 dollars a pack when If I had that sort of money I could buy video games and classical cds. Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Where do you live? Here, you can buy a good pack of cigarettes for $1.50.
Bob, you raise a good point. That is probably one of the reasons that I don't smoke as well. Thought, like you, I will never fully admint it, only entertain it as a posibility.
[ March 30, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
I started smoking because I was required to do it for a role in a play. I had played smoking roles before and had never really caught on how to smoke. However, in a production of Stalag 17, I was required to chain smoke filterless camels. Yummy, let me tell you. It was a fun guy show though, and I was hanging around with fun guys and it just sort of stuck with me. I smoked about a pack a day for about five years. I quit last Thanksgiving. I am not endowed with the greatest of willpower, and it was about the hardest thing I’ve ever forced myself to do.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
When I was about 5, a guy driving past me flicked his cigar butt at me. Being the inquisitve type, and noticing that there was still a decent amount of cigar left, I tried a puff. That was plenty.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Growing up Mormon, smoking and drinking were never temptations for me. However, I never demonstrated much willpower in the things I could do (mostly eating) so I always figured if I ever took up drinking or smoking I'd be addicted pretty easily. Oddly enough, I started drinking socially about 5 years ago or so, and two years ago or so I dabbled in smoking. I never drink alone and have never felt the need for a drink. And perhaps I didn't smoke enough to pick up an addiction, but for a while I smoked when I was out with friends at a bar or during a cocktail party. I still may occasionally have a cigar, but I haven't had one in nearly 10 months.
I started, mostly, out of curiosity. I mean, there must be some good reason to smoke, right? I can't believe the millions who do are all simply products of peer pressure. So I had my first cigarette and first cigar in order to find out what pleasure it offered. I found out that it can be pleasant, but it isn't one of life's great joys for me, so I can take it or leave it.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Smoking was often recommended by doctors all the way into the 1950s. Then again, they were the ones pushing cocaine earlier that century. Maybe to get their patients off cocaine, they started pushing cigarette usage?
They were part of the Army rations in every war from the Civil War through Vietnam, though the Tennessee Supreme Court upheld a total ban on them in 1898 and four other States had laws banning the sale of them.
Did you know that Marlboro's were originally created as a woman's cigarette? At one point and time, they actually had a red tip to "hid the lipstick?" When the "Marlboro Men" (which eventually was dropped to just the one cowboy Marlboro Man) were introduced in the '50s, Marlboro had less than 1% of the market share.
My parents smoked. My siblings and I nagged and nagged and they finally quit when I was heading into my teenage years. One day, while driving to work, I was absolutely dying for a cigarette. Personally, I think I was addicted to the "second hand" nicotine when my parents smoked. So there. Oh, and I was like you once, too. I hated it when my parents smoked and I would have never dreamed of smoking after the hell we put them through. Propaganda only takes you so far. I know I'm an addictive personality. It's a good thing my liver is so bad that I can't drink, or I'd be an alcoholic, too.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Best way to lose a bad habit: fall in love with somebody who dislikes it. That way, you get two things in one Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Best way to get a bad habit -- fall in love with someone who has it. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
My parents smoked and I hated it. I never tried a cigarette. No desire too.
I did drink for a while, for a short period (about a year) every weekend. Then, I drank sporadically, one weekend every other month or so. Last year my husband and I both decided to stop drinking altogether.
My brother who grew up in the same household smokes, though. Weird. It completely turned me off cigarettes, but he started when he was a teen.
So, no major addictions here. Caffeine, though. I am addicted to caffeine.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
asthma. I can't smoke if I want to breath, I can't be around anyone smoking, and I can't be in the same room with anyone who just finished smoking for very long. I probably wouldn't anyway, just cause I hate the idea of being addicted to anything, but as things are-I'll sure never be tempted to smoke!
Oh, and a question for those of you who do smoke-why is it smokers always seem to hang out in doorways?
[ March 30, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Really, mr_porteiro_head ? And what bad habits did you get this way, if I'm allowed to ask ? Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
This is an easy one for me. I work with cancer patients.
On a more personal note, everyone, it seems, in my family has been a smoker at least once in their life. My mother was a smoker for years up until the point when she found out that she was pregnant with me. She fought to quit as quickly as possible with the help of red licorice.
My grandpa was also a heavy smoker and to see him constantly battle this addiction gave me the stronger willpower to never start myself, to never be a slave to any drug.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
I smoke and was the last of my friends to start at the tender age of 14 and now, twenty years later, I'm the only one out of the bunch that still smokes.
Growing up and living in North Carolina, tobacco is pretty commonplace, even moreso than anywhere else you're likely to go.
Why do I keep smoking? Well, deep down inside, I'm just flat out addicted. Sure, there are lots of things I like about it, but the buzz isn't much anymore and there's not much to the taste anymore either. So, it must be the addiction. Or at least that's what has kicked the dickens out of me every time I've tried to quit.
I don't advise for anyone to ever start smoking. But, on the other hand, please, I don't need yet another "You Really Need to Stop Smoking" heartfelt speach number 413 again...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Toretha, smokers would prefer to be smoking inside, let me tell you. Count your blessings. The only reason they smoke outside by doorways is the same reason they don't smoke in theaters or on planes or any place else it used to be legal to smoke until about ten years a go.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
We (smokers) hang out in doorways simply because we've been asked to leave buildings to smoke. We go outside to leave the inside of the building smoke free. We stand outside in the rain, or the cold, or whatever so that other folks aren't annoyed by us. Or at least that's what we try. We may not move out to the middle of a parking lot because we have to go back in to work after a short five minute break, or perhaps it is in an attempt to keep some rain off of ourselves, or possibly to stay out of a nasty wind.
You see, we're just people, too. But we go outside because partly because we've been made to, and partly in some effort to try and keep from offending others.
Perhaps those who walk quickly by us and sneer should be forced to take their disapproving stares and intolerance out to the parking lot for a few minutes a day, too.
But honestly, if even the smell of smoke bothers you, isn't the air of a world polluted by car exhausts, factory smoke, pollen and other particulates just as bad? Toughen up a bit and lay off of the folks who are at least trying to give you your space. Perhaps you should try to let them have their own place, rather than continuing to hound them to a place where second hand citizens (and their "second hand smoke) are out of sight and out of mind.
[ March 30, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
Posted by kinglear (Member # 6211) on :
I really don't like regular cigarettes, but I do smoke cloves on occasion. the reason: flavor. cloves have a flavor to them rathern than simeply tasting like, well, smoke.
Its the same reason I enjoy my cigars and my pipe. I can mix pipe tobacco to get a nice smooth flavor without the burning tar scent. And cigars offer the same thing
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
sop, lighten up dude. Sounds like you've been harrassed too much. (Though, toretha, while I don't remember what part of your post you edited, I remember being slightly offended when I first read your second sentence. I originally read it to mean that you wouldn't really want to hang out with someone who smokes anyway. I read it now, and I wonder if that is what you changed, so we'd understand you weren't saying that, so be kind to Sop. He obviously needs another smoke. [edit: and probably some xanax and therapy couldn't hurt. )
King Lear, that's amusing. Most actors who don't smoke (but their character does, so they fake smoke clove cigarettes) say that clove smokes are worse than regular cigarettes.
[ March 30, 2004, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Kayla ]
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Don't know why I started, and don't care. I smoke Camel Exotic Blends, Specials, or whatever I can get at at $15.00 a carton that is Camel. I do plan to quit, but not any time in the immediate future. Looking like next April. Just after I transfer from this Hellhole of a command I am in right now.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
As a friend once put it,
"You're trying to solve a puzzle. You've tried everything in your repertoire (toolbox). You step outside for a smoke. Light up, and the solution presents itself."
fallow
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
My grandfather, one of the best men ever to walk this Earth, died of lung cancer when I was a child due to a lifelong smoking habit from before they knew -- or admitted, at least -- that cigarettes were harmful.
Somehow, I learned to abstain.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I grew up in a firmly non-smoking household, with asthma.
Smoke makes me sick - I cannot breathe around people who are smoking.
My grandmother died when I was 11 of lung cancer. She was only 60. My grandfather still hasn't gotten over her death.
Take all that, add in the financial burden, the yellow teeth and fingers, the smell...
For me it was a pretty easy decision. With all that going on when I was a kid, I've never viewed smoking as cool.
[ March 31, 2004, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
When I was in high school, I wanted to be a singer, and said I'd never smoke because I didn't want to end up like my homeroom teacher whose rasp rivaled Louie Armstrong's. Yeah well, my singing career didn't quite take off, so other than the obvious health risks, I no longer had a personal motivation to remain smoke-free. I started in an effort to get a friend to quit. Don't ask me how that makes sense. It's happened twice. The sad thing is that I'm not addicted, so it makes even less sense that I still smoke, but now it's more of a social/when I'm drinking thing. Cuz, you know, that's makes it better.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Mmmmm... smokie treat... <drools>
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I didn't see the first "r" in Primal Curve's post, which gave it a somewhat different meaning.
[ March 31, 2004, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Question 2: (Only for the smokers now.) Would you recommend someone smoke?
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Tobacco is just not my drug. I have tried it a few times, but each time so far has been, "Still tastes bad. Still does not get me noticeably high. Still pointless." A major reason why I seriously cut back on the amount of alcohol I used was because I had had a cigar when I drank twice in a period of no more than two months. That scared me really badly. Cigarettes always have been and always will be completely disgusting.
If you are the person who does not get addicted to anything, smoking has many short term benefits. However, the stuff is the most addictive drug known to man, so you are not that person. It is not the first cigarette that gets anyone; it is the twentieth in the first pack.
Benefits include:
Social factors Regular breaks from work Often unnoticeable high It is a stimulant so you will be more productive as long as you have an ample supply of nicotine. Like it or not, smoking is still cool among certain social groups. Only works if you are part of one of those groups. If you smoke marijuana, you can roll your own cigarettes with half and half to hide the smell and smoke in public.
Costs include:
One rapidly becomes less productive when jonesing for a cigarette. Some social groups will completely ostracize you. It is becoming more socially acceptable to act like a jerk to smokers. If you guys do not watch it they will make smoking illegal, as this benefits pretty much everyone in power. If your habit is at all significant, you are wasting a lot of money. In five or ten years marijuana is going to be cheaper than tobacco. Some people refuse to date smokers.
If you need to smoke for an acting role, try herbal cigarettes. That is what the guy who played the Cigarette Smoking Man on X-Files did, as he did not smoke in real life. Probably less addictive than cloves. Unless cloves are herbals?
As far as the benefits of not smoking go, the main one is cost and the secondary one is the moral superiority it confers. The latter is probably much more useful to me than it would be to many others, though.
[ March 31, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Danzig ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I've smoked experimentally for the most part. I had a philosopher boyfriend who liked to drink and smoke in bars, so I tried it too. It made me feel mildly rebellious, and for some reason actually smoking didn't make me as ill as being around cigarette smoke.
I also taught my sister and her best friend how to smoke at the beach once. They didn't like it.
Usually, I wheeze and get red eyes at the slightest whiff of cigarette smoke. I can tolerate it at a club if I'm dancing, but that's about it. And as a mom, I get FURIOUS if someone smokes around my daughter. Both she and my husband are tremendously sensitive to smoke.
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
quote:However, the stuff is the most addictive drug known to man,
truly, or hyperbole?
-o-
Among your benefits of not smoking, you might want to include lower risk of lung cancer and heart disease.
-o-
quote:If you guys do not watch it they will make smoking illegal, as this benefits pretty much everyone in power.
I dunno . . . I thought Big Tobacco (such as it is) was known for making sizeable contributions to Republicans. Even if that is not true, making smoking illegal would close down plants that make cigarettes, put people in support capacities out of business . . . it would adversely affect the economy in the Southeast, particularly North Carolina. I would expect pro-Business politicians to be opposed to this.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Arguable truth. The other contenders are crack and the nastier ways of ingesting methamphetamine. Heroin is high but not really as high as those. Nicotine is right up there if it is not number one go, in the hundred point scale I saw it was at 99, with one of the other stimulants. The third stim was at 98 and heroin was 80. There are different ways people measure addiction as well, so that can also account for different drugs coming out on top. Alcohol is actually a lot more dangerous to withdraw from than heroin or a moderate cocaine habit, at least for the user. Nicotine is so high because of how quickly it addicts you and how much of a physical addiction it gives, as well as how damaging it is. To really answer your question, then, it is hyperbole that may or may not be completely true.
A ban would tremendously benefit all levels of government, especially the executive. Remember, tobacco is a lot more addictive than cannabis or alcohol, and look how well we are doing there. (Not well at all; anyone who wants weed can get it in less than 24 hours if they have been in a place for a couple of months at most.) The cost of enforcing it would be astronomical, and it would be hated by either a quarter or a fifth of the population that cuts across all social boundaries. The poor, who still smoke the most, would be hit hardest, as they would be unable to hire lawyers and the resulting conviction would render them much less employable in the future. People killed over alcohol; people kill over marijuana and harder drugs; people will kill over tobacco. Probably more so than anything we have seen before, because while less of the population uses tobacco than alcohol, most of those who do use it are addicted. At the very least, we will see a hundred Rush Limbaughs in the years after the ban.
As for Big Tobacco, they would not benefit, but they could easily survive. Philip Morris at least owns all types of stores that sell products that are addictive, such as beer and snack foods. They would suffer, but as every other player in government and quite a few in business stand to profit this much, it will not stop them forever if they think they can do it. Who better to look for renegade tobacco growers than those who used to do it for a living? I have not gone into how I would start my own criminal organization to supply the black market and make a fortune for business reasons , but the other side will still need growers. I live in Kentucky, and I am pretty sure our two largest cash crops are and will remain marijuana and tobacco no matter what the law says.
Pro business politicians who have no other concerns will be for this as it will create more opportunities, both personally and for their constituencies. Those who do have other concerns will be against making tobacco illegal due to the high human cost it would have. Organised criminals will support this. Politicians will look like good guys for supporting this. Concerned citizens ^W assholes will support this. As far as I can know or guess it is not immediately on the horizon, but everyone knows some of the more radical anti-smoking groups would love to do this. A scion of the Reynolds family, now a noted anti smoker whose name I do not recall, asked on his web site to support further limiting the First Amendment rights of smoking companies (and smoking companies alone). Politicians do not like the Bill of Rights; it gets in the way of so many feel-good, look-good laws. This would set a precedent, and one far more dangerous than if the rights of advertisers in general were limited. Once you pick out one group for one thing, pick out another group for another, more severe limitation. Also, politicians (and government agencies) have more dealings with organized crime than is proper. They might not mind a bit of a black market in their state.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
As for lung cancer, I have a weird perspective on that which I feel is unlikely to be shared by anyone, and would give me grief if I aired it. So I probably will not unless more than one person asks me to, and I will add a disclaimer.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
OK Danzig, I'll bite, what's your take on lung cancer?
Why have I never smoked? My mother did, and it was disgusting. Also she smoked her whole pregnancy and I was 5 lbs at full term, which I suspect was influenced by her smoking
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Danzig, I second romanylass's question. Is that enough for you to share your perspective on lung cancer, or do I have to create a bunch of alter-egos just to make you do it ? Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
You must obey the topic starter, state your take on lung cancer.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
Been a smoker for few years now. I started smoking just to see what it was all about. I kept it at a social thing for quite a while.
For most of my life I was about 50 pounds overweight. A couple years ago, when I finally gathered the self-confidence and committment to do something about it, the cigarette thing became more of a crutch than an occasional luxury. While your body is craving one substance you can feed it something else and that can really help.
At this point I believe that smoking has been a health BENEFIT for me overall. Soon that will not be the case. I'll have to move on to some other addiction... sadly Hatrack doesn't really do it for me.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Okay, that makes 2.5 . If you get offended by me in general, do not read further. If you get offended by pro-drug attitudes, do not read further. By reading this disclaimer you agree to be offended by any or all of the message.
Everyone dies. Basically, there are four ways to die that somewhat overlap: accident, disease, suicide, and murder. Suicide is avoidable. Murder is not but can be made less likely. Accidents can also be made less likely, and murder can be called an accident for the purposes of this discussion. Suicide will be ignored, or you could call it a disease. (Not trying to offend anyone but probably already failing.) So, accident and illness are two ways to go.
If it is an accident, it is probably pretty quickly. If it is a disease, such as lung cancer, you get pain medication. If death were otherwise avoidable, then worrying about getting lung cancer when you are 50 or 60 would make sense. As death is unavoidable, to my mind 50 or 60 is plenty of time to die by plenty of other things. If you are getting pleasure from smoking, then you should not worry about lung cancer. If you do get it, then you get better drugs such as morphine and fentanyl. If you have to go, a 24/7 IV drip until you just pass away naturally is the way to do it.
However, sometimes doctors do not prescribe enough pain medication. Sometimes this is because they fear being prosecuted. Sometimes they just do not know it is not enough and the patient does not know it can get any better. Sometimes they think that because pain is natural, some physical pain is good. (I have seen a quote by some authority figure, a doctor IIRC, that stated pretty much that last sentence, and if anyone is interested will try to find it.) In this case, lung cancer is clearly less preferable than deaths which do not drag out forever, so the pain meds that are hopefully associated with lung cancer are not enough to push it into a benefit of smoking, but too much to push it firmly into a cost, given assurance of a death remotely within that time frame.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
I am not offended by that post. Mine was but only a half hearted request.
In fact, I must say, it is a pretty good agrgument. Seems like a pretty nice way to go... now.
[ March 31, 2004, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote: I have been curious why some people start smoking and why some people don't.
There is no reason to start smoking in 2004. None. Zero. None whatsoever. Zilch. Sorry. If you started smoking in 1585, I think you can be excused completely and should be allowed to smoke wherever the mighty hell you want to, because back then it was prescribed as a medecine to cure cancer, coughs, headaches, everything. But the only reason a person starts smoking in 2004 is that they are WEAK and want to look cool.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Touché
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Danzig, I’m not offended by your opinion. However, I have held the hand of more than one person as they died of lung cancer, and it is not a death I would choose. Morphine drip or no.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
It sucks, certainly, but something has to get you. My grandmother died of lung cancer as well, and sure I wish she had not had to go through that, but there are plenty of other ways to die in pain as well. Besides, you could be a non-smoker and still get lung cancer. So I do not think it should really weigh that heavily in the pros and cons.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Kayla, I did not edit my post to take anything out-that seems kinda rude somehow, like a way to deny saying something i did say. It was edited to add my question at the end of it. And my second sentance was simply stating facts-if I want to be able to breath I literally can not be around someone smoking, or in the same room with someone who has been. It's made a lot of problems for me with people on the team, who i would like to be friends with-but can't be around.
And Sop, can it. Poor you, you're harassed. Yeah, I feel so sorry for you, as I gasp for breath every time i change classes. I was polite, and I am polite to smokers, even to the extent of trying to hide my problems so they don't know why i'm leaving. But you want harassment? Try not being able to leave your room without being afraid. Try having trouble going to classes because other people smoke before coming in. Try being forced to leave a job you love because other people keep smoking in doorways. And then see if maybe it changes your opinions. And yes, car smog, pollution and pollen are problems. But smoke is by far the worst, and the one that gets an instant (and BAD) reaction. Tell me, how does one toughen up in such a way as to prevent asthma? I am happy to let people smoke in their own space-its every time that it comes into mine and makes me sick I object to.
[ March 31, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Danzig, no offense taken. I do, however, think you clearly have no experience whatsoever with cancer or any terminal illness of any kind. I'll also excuse your callous disregard of all your loved ones who will be blessed with the opportunity to watch you rot away before their eyes over a matter of months, if not years.
Again, I'm not offended. There's a difference between being offended and simply thinking someone's an idiot.
Edit: I should be clear. If you want to smoke, that's your own choice (and thankfully, being an American, you fellow citizens won't have to pay for your choice should you develop complications). What I object to is painting cancer with the brush you've chosen.
[ March 31, 2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
Posted by kinglear (Member # 6211) on :
quote:KAYLA:
King Lear, that's amusing. Most actors who don't smoke (but their character does, so they fake smoke clove cigarettes) say that clove smokes are worse than regular cigarettes.
They are worse for you health wise. The clove cigarette is a regular cigarrette but with ground cloves (the spice) in the tobacco, that gets in your lung which is why you're not supposed to inhale clove cigarrettes. They have amuch better flavor in the mouth (more like a cigar).
As to actors I haven't heard about using cloves besides normal cigs, but I have heard that some use herbal cigarrettes instead of normal cigs as they have no tobacco or addictive substances. ( the primary person I heard this about was an interview with the guy who played the 'smoking man' on the X-Files.)
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
You know, odouls, people let down their guard and post stuff in response to a question, not expecting to be called names for it.
Just saying is all . . .
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
** goes back to hiding like a pariah should **
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Sopwith, you're hiding in the doorway. We can all see you.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Thank you all for sheading light on this subject for me.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote: You know, odouls, people let down their guard and post stuff in response to a question, not expecting to be called names for it.
To be frank, I didn't read any responses to the original topic prior to posting. So I have no idea who posted that they smoke, and was not directing my post at any particular person.
That having been said, my assertion still stands.
WEAK + WANNA LOOK COOL = SMOKER = FUTURE CANCER PATIENT.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Here's my thinking-if a person stood around other people throwing rocks at them, people would get annoyed and most people would consider that fairly reasonable. Smoking hurts other people too-but if you dare get annoyed at that, most people think you're being unreasonable, and get angry at you. Why the difference?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
The best ad is this anti smoking shards of glass ice pop ad. It's brilliant and makes me laugh
Posted by DocCoyote (Member # 5612) on :
I remember my dad accidentally brushing his cigarette against me as we stood in a line at the grocery store. I was afraid to say anything, but still have a tiny little scar...
Flash forward. I hate the smell that surrounds my dad, though I love him.
Another flash. I fly from Florida to Philadelphia to see my dad at the hospital, where he has a very unattractive funnel-type thing in this nose, in order to clear his lungs while he's dying of lyng cancer.
Final flash. I stand at the doorway of the hospital room, heading for the airport and looking at my father, knowing I'll never see him alive again, and not being able to say anything that could convery how much I will miss him, and how much I loved and valued him, and pretending it isn't the end.
Why do I not smoke? Why do I wish no one ever thought about wrapping tobacco in a piece of paper?
I give everyone their freedom of choice. Just please don't ask me to love it. I wish we didn't do this to ourselves. A person I love dearly smokes, and hides it from me, pretending I don't know she's sneaking outside for a cigarette. What can I say?
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
I hate that argument of personal right to smoke. I really do. Its what everyone always cites, but....your right to swing your arm stops where it hits my face. And the right of people to breath, and not be at risk for illness due to second-hand smoke really ought to supercede the right of people to harm themselves smoking. So yes, let them smoke-AWAY from people who don't smoke and don't want to be around it. But ethically, they should not be allowed to smoke around people who could be harmed by it.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
It is unreasonable because smoking does not cause instant harm to the passer-by. Rocks will. Not to mention there is only a 1 in 30,000 chance that you will develop complications from second hand smoke if you are exposed to it regularly. That is most of the day.
That being said, I know people with allergies have problems with smoke. However, this is a small minority. Why should we cater to the minority?
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
I was supposed to have the day off today.
Instead I got to spend time with a dying patient and her family. I got to explain to the family this afternoon that the patient has a terminal condition, and will probably be dead within the week.
Then I got to sit next to the patient while her family held her hands and I told her the very same thing. Two weeks ago I told her that her emphysema is too bad to withstand surgery so that her severe heart failure and failing heart valves cannot be surgically corrected. Today I had to tell her that her aorta clotted off completely, so that her legs have turned blue and painful, and are slowly dying. They will begin to rot away over the next few days until her kidneys fail and then she will die. The pain in her dying legs is already excruciating. Surgery could fix it, of course. But she can't have surgery. Her smoking has ruined her lungs, her heart, and her blood vessels, and her body is now dying, literally.
I have her on a morphine drip, with orders to call me anytime she needs something.
I actually like the smell of smoke. But after looking at people like her I could never choose to smoke.
[ April 02, 2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Theca ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Why should you avoid causing harm for your own gratification? Because its wrong to hurt other people for no reason other than that you don't want to move out further.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
You are missing the point of my argument. Either that, or you are deliberately sidestepping it, as many of you people do. Avoiding the real point in favour of anecdotes. No worry, I will clarify.
The people to whom cigarette smoke causes instant harm are but a small, small minority. It is not as if it were a large section of the populous that is afflicted. It does not make since to change the habits of the majority, real or simple, to suit the wants of another group. It makes less sense to change the established ways for a smaller group.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
needs. Breathing is a need, smoking is a want.
[ April 02, 2004, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
DARNIT! THEN DON'T GO AROUND THE SMOKERS! IT IS THAT SIMPLE!
EDIT: punctuation and spelling
[ April 03, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*puff*
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
Oh, sure, very simple. She can just avoid eating in restaurants, walking by doorways, or associating with smokers. She can continue to quit jobs and lose jobs and avoid jobs that bring her in close proximity with smokers.
I'm not saying all smoking should be banned. But it's NOT "that simple", and there's no need for swearing and being rude.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
There should be a good way for smokers to quit without the black-sheep mentality
A little aside. California was one (if not the first) social experiment when it came to attempts to eliminate this addiction from the population. kudos, though it came right as I arrived here.
Telling smokers that they are abhorrent, mean, stinky, and otherwise unwelcome individuals doesn't work. It's not a good message to send to youngsters and/or the addicted. It backfires. "Ok, so I do this thing that everyone thinks is wrong. I'm hooked on it. My friends are hooked on it. How can it be wrong? We all get along, except for you, claiming to be the majority! Maybe YOU're wrong and me and my friends are right?"
fallow
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Umm, actually it is real easy to avoid smokers in restaurants. I like to call it the "Go to another restaurant" plan. This is where you go to another one, and eat there. And no, If one person wants to go to a place where many people smoke, the place should not be made non smoking for one person.
That is my point, the minority should not dictate the majority, real or simple, on anything. It seems to me that all people are doing is giving me anecdote, not an argument against. It is like I said, that is all you people do.
EDIT: Sorry if I was rude, but I am seeing nothing but the standard "smoking is the devil" crap from him/her (sorry, I am not good with remembering genders here) as I get from all those anti-smoking activists.
[ April 03, 2004, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
So whatever the minority wants should go? What if the minority wants to kill everyone who has a certain characteristic? I guess the minority who are against shouldn't be able to stop the majority, though, right? The majority's bigger; they should be able to do whatever they want.
edit: Toretha is NOT just saying "smoking is the devil." Really. Are you even reading her posts? She gets sick if she has to smell smoke. A lot of people do. I do. My brother does. My mom does. How do you feel about pollution? Do you think it's okay for companies to pollute the air with smog?
another edit: Don't just apologize for being rude. STOP BEING RUDE. Don't call Toretha a nut-job.
[ April 03, 2004, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Rappin' Ronnie Reagan ]
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Smoking is on more of a personal level. Cigarette smoke is not everywhere. I do believe that walking past a person that is smoking is going to be fine. I mean, it takes several minutes for allergic reactions to set in. I doubt that opening a door and walking past the cast-aside smokers that don't want to travle too far will cause much trouble. It cretianly wont kill you.
EDIT: I was apoligizing to everyone for the curse word, not for cursing at anyone. But yes, I will stop being rude.
[ April 03, 2004, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I'm not catching the point (i.e. attempting to outright kill this) thread as there doesn't seem to be a coherent viewpoint?
fallow
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
You said that if someone doesn't like smoke they just shouldn't go to a place where there is any. All the bowling places around here allow smoke. And it's not just one little area of the places that has a cloud of smoke around it, it's the WHOLE PLACE. I have to breath smoke the whole time if I want to bowl. Places have to provide access for the disabled; why shouldn't they have to provide clean air for the people who need it?
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Well, after some of the comments made, I think I might not quit. Just to piss off the non-smokers who want to run my life. Maybe I'll become an alcoholic, get hooked on crack, or maybe even some sick psycho.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
quote:Umm, actually it is real easy to avoid smokers in restaurants. I like to call it the "Go to another restaurant" plan. This is where you go to another one, and eat there. And no, If one person wants to go to a place where many people smoke, the place should not be made non smoking for one person.
The point is, public places ought to be made accessible to everyone. As RRR said, we have to make ramps and all that to make resturants handicapped accessible. Well, there are other less obvious handicaps-LIKE BEING UNABLE TO BE AROUND SMOKE! So because people like my family happen to have handicaps that we can't help, WE should be forced to go elsewhere in order to accomodate the addictions of people who chose to be that way?
quote: That is my point, the minority should not dictate the majority, real or simple, on anything. It seems to me that all people are doing is giving me anecdote, not an argument against. It is like I said, that is all you people do.
It has before. Ramps to buildings. Resturants opened to all races. Minorities are entitled to equal treatment under law as majorities. And I gave you an argument-breathing is a NEED. Smoking is a WANT. And YOU have yet to explain how the desire to indulge a want gives anyone the right to interfere with someone else's need to BREATH. According to the basic principles of ethics, all people have to right to try to get their needs and those wants WHICH DO NOT INTERFERE WITH THE NEEDS OF OTHERS. Tell me how the current places of smoking fit with ethics.
Or, if ethics isn't enough, here's law:
According to Title III for the Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Accomodations must comply with basic requirements that prohibit exclusion, segregation and unequal treatment.
quote:Sorry if I was rude, but I am seeing nothing but the standard "smoking is the devil" crap from him/her (sorry, I am not good with remembering genders here) as I get from all those anti-smoking activists.
You see that because you don't want to see anything more. It isn't what I'm saying. (i'm female, btw) What I'm saying is that it is a direct danger that is going unadressed and is hurting people.
quote: Smoking is on more of a personal level. Cigarette smoke is not everywhere. I do believe that walking past a person that is smoking is going to be fine. I mean, it takes several minutes for allergic reactions to set in. I doubt that opening a door and walking past the cast-aside smokers that don't want to travle too far will cause much trouble. It cretianly wont kill you.
It doesn't have to be everywhere. Its enough places. You're welcome to believe its ly with fine-but I know its not. You're speaking from conjecture, I from experience-and not only my own. I've been on steriods, codiene and immune system depressants for months (except the last one) BECAUSE of walking by people in doorways smoking, and working in an office with people who smoke outside then come in smelling of smoke. My mother was hospitalized because a smoker sat next to her in mass. You call having to quit your job not much trouble? Or staying in the hospital? How about being sick for months at a time? How much does it take to qualify as TROUBLE?
[ April 03, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I'm not going to make a lengthy post, because unlike many of you, I think perhaps I lack the self-control to keep it polite.
First of all, I'm around Toretha a lot, and I hope it's perfectly clear that she's not exagerrating at all. I've never met anyone as sensitive to smoke as her, and it's not her fault she's burdened with that handicap. Why make her suffer for something that she has no control over? Just get control of your (**omit random expletives**) habit and keep smoking to the appropriate places.
SoberTillNoon - wow. Just wow. I just wanna say that I can't BELIEVE you would suggest the "go to another restaurant plan". What kind of an ego must you have to automatically assume that you can lay claim over a public place, and that just because you've got a cigarette in your hand you can restrict others from the benefit of that place. Just go outside, man. It's not that difficult. Just a little sacrifice you can make to make everyone's life a little easier. And, since you're already polluting the atmosphere and lending to the problem of secondhand smoke, is that really so much to ask?
So much for not making a lengthy post. I really feel like ranting, but Toretha's insisting that I be polite so I'm going to stop now.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I want to add my agreement to what Avadaru just said. Anna's quality of life is seriously damaged because people can't be bothered to do simple things that would protect her. They prefer to believe it's not true rather than to go a little out of their way. Anna HATES having to not go to things, like when her debate club meets at restaurants where there is smoke. She hates having to ask people not to smoke around her, or to hold dorm meetings in a smoke free venue, for instance. Yet she can't breathe when exposed to it. Breathing is unfortunately necessary.
It makes me pretty angry, too. Anna's gotten very sick this year trying to ignore it, and work around it. She's gotten very sick telling herself to just be tough, and take more medicine, or whatever. The medicine isn't working well. There are lots of bad side effects to it. For one thing, it intereferes with her sleep. There are a lot of long term bad side effects to taking cortisone and stuff like that too. Bone problems, and other horrible things. (My mom got a hysterical reaction to prednisone and had to be in a hospital for six weeks when I was a kid. That was before they really realized how dangerous it could be. Back when they thought it was a miracle drug. She was taking it for inner ear problems.)
And then people don't believe her.
It's not because they don't but because they just simply refuse to. If they did, they might have to admit that they ought to change somehow, to do something differently, I guess. So it's just easier for them to pretend to themselves that it's not real. Unfortunately that won't work for Anna. Because of their selfishness she's gotten very sick. Then they want to say she is just whining. It makes me quite angry, for sure.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Sensitivity to smoke is not technically a disability. It is not covered under the ADA and therefore restaurants and bars have no legal obligation to accommodate those who are sensitive or allergic to smoke (unless there is a state law that requires them to do so). Banning smoking in places such federal buildings, schools, and hospitals is one thing. Banning smoking in privately-owned businesses is quite another. I am uncomfortable with that idea of the government telling people what they can and cannot do on their private property.
With all due respect to Toretha and RRR, your beef is not really with the smokers in bars and restaurants. It is with the owners of the places that allow smoking. Try to see things from their perspective - you are 2 people. If they disallow smoking, y'all will come to their restaurants, but how many smokers will stop coming? Is it really fair to ask people to risk losing income and possibly their businesses to accommodate your preferences? This has happened in NYC, where there is a smoking ban in bars. Some bars have closed and others have lost huge amounts of money.
Obviously it is in the best interest of most privately-owned business to ban smoking on their property. Who would go into a grocery store that allowed smoking, for instance. But recreational facilities earn a lot of their profits from smokers and these places can be avoided by non-smokers without undue hardship.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
according the act,
(2) DISABILITY- The term `disability' means, with respect to an individual--
(A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of such individual;
(B) a record of such an impairment; or
(C) being regarded as having such an impairment.
Well, asthma with severe reactions to smoke does that. So it does fall under the category of disbility
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I don't have reactions nearly as severe as Toretha's, but cigarette smoke makes me physically ill -- and yes, StN, sometimes all it takes is walking past someone who is smoking. You want me to vomit on your shoes? Blow smoke in my face.
I remember when smoking was allowed on domestic flights. *turns green* I remember the relief when it wasn't any longer.
My quality of life is vastly improved by the fact that California no longer allows smoking inside bars and restaurants -- and so is that of all waiter-staff who are sensitive to smoke. They cannot just "go to another restaurant"!
I have a fair amount of sympathy for long-time smokers who can't quit. It must be very difficult to no longer be allowed to smoke many places, but not be able to stop smoking. I have friends who are smokers. But, forgive me, I cannot often spend much time around them. Even when they are not smoking, they reek -- and I cough.
OTOH, smokers who believe that they have a RIGHT to spew their toxins in my direction . . . Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I think nicotine should be a controlled substance, without a doubt.
rivka,
Everytime I find myself behind a bus (spewing toxins in my direction, nay engulfing the entire area I might seek a breath) I get offended. But, then, it's kind of hard to demonize an automobile, particularly one of the public transport variety.
no wait. SUV's are demon vehicles. The rest are ok, so long as we need to get somewhere.
fallow
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
I do have a comment on the indoor/outdoor. I do prefer to smoke outdoors. And most places where I worked in the past, you really had to go out of your way to get to the employees that smoked. I know when I unloaded trucks at a department store it was outside the garage. No customer goes back there, and if they do......they have bigger issues than smokers.
I try to be polite with my smoking (I was asthmatic as a kid. grew out of it). However, for me, it is when people start telling me how to live that I stop giving a rat's butt about ya (not you specific).
Quit date is next April. If I get stationed in NY as an instructor, then I will probably be glad I quit as cigs are expensive up there.
Posted by karen.elizabeth (Member # 6345) on :
StN, what about me?
I've grown up my entire life around unapologetic smokers. My clothing stinks so much of cigarette smoke that I have to explain it sometimes to my friends. "No, no, I don't smoke. My Bummy does."
When I was in fifth grade (and stupid), I thought that the smart thing to do was to get my Bummy to stop smoking. She laughed and told me to mind my business. I tried again, and she got annoyed. I don't really try, now, because she just won't.
I can't ask my Bummy and Grandad to smoke outside -- they get very angry! Teachers have asked them to smoke outside (very pushy, weird teachers) and Bummy laid the SMACK-DOWN. Honestly, this is their house!
So, yes, our ceilings are yellow and we wash our walls a lot.
I'm lucky, because I am in no way bothered by cigarette smoke (someone can blow it in my face and it'll not bother me; I probably won't even notice it). But I won't ever smoke.
Mostly because my Bummy and Grandad spend somewhere around $60 a week on cigarettes. That's my college money! Gone!!!
-Karen
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
karen,
That sucks. Look forward to having a smoke-free home of your own? Dunno what else to say. I don't know a single smoker who isn't convinced deep down at the gut level that it's a disgusting unhealthy habit.
The price of a gallon of gasoline is quickly catching up to that of a pack of smokes.
avadaru,
nice to see your name again.
fallow
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
But when you come inside after smoking, your clothing stinks of smoke. It has the same effect, even if you aren't currently smoking.
And when people determined to continue smoking make me give UP major parts of my life because if I don't, I get drugged up to my eyeballs, I get upset too. But I'm forced into this. You're not. You don't like it-STOP!
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Also from the ADA:
quote:The definition of "individual with a disability" is fraught with conditions and must be applied on a case-by-case basis.
quote:A modification is not required if it would "fundamentally alter" the goods, services, or operations of the public accommodation.
In most states, having separate smoking sections is all that is needed for reasonable accommodation. I agree that they can be ineffective and I have had to leave restaurants when I was with my best friend, Cara (who has a similar reaction to smoke that you do, Toretha). It would be nice if all restaurants had separate dining rooms for smokers (like the O'Charleys near us), but that's usually not an option.
I don't want to get into a semantic ADA interpretation fest, but a lawsuit against a restaurant or bar in your area would probably not be successful. One against your employer probably would be successful (as I recall, they could have and should have easily accommodated you and spitefully refused to do so).
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
toretha,
I'm sorry. I don't quite understand your posts. You have a very strong reaction to smoke. Are you surrounded by smokers? You work in a smoke-filled environment?
fallow
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
You are using the parellel of disabled people. This is not comparable, seeing that a ramp does not cause anyone to change their way of life, outside a few more steps to go around the ramp.
Mrs.M thank you. I need all the help I can get.
I know that people that react badly are out out, but you have to realize that you are a very small number. A number that is almost negligible. I feel bad for the people that are put out by smoking, but there is nothing that can be done at this time without heavy medication. Why sould five or six people say that a private establishment should not allow smokin when more than 100 people are there smoking?
[ April 04, 2004, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
It may be considered acceptable. But it isn't, because it doesn't work. What is considered acceptable is part of what needs to change.
And fallow, yes, I was. I work at the Louisiana School for the Deaf. I WAS in the maintenance department. Everyone smoked but me, and all the smoke on their clothes made me sick in the office, and all the smoke from outside drifted in and made me more sick. I transferred 3 weeks ago, after having tried to tough it out and hope things got better, or that people would eventually give in to my requests for change since June. I now work in a different department, with fewer smokers, so I'm now safe.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
Sobertillnoon, how would you respond to her statement that breathing is a need and smoking is a want?
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
look at how they were defined in the act-I posted it above. It seems to fit that definition.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Toretha,
Do you like to go camping? If so, how do you react to a campfire? I've always found that my clothes and gear stink mightily of campfire when I get back home. Typically it gives me warm fuzzies, unless I bury my nose in a jacket or sweater and inhale deeply (not that I'm prone to this kind of behavior or anything). Then, even campfire smoke smells noxious and makes me dizzy.
fallow
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
My dad was a heavy smoker, two packs a day. The rest of us hated it.
When he was 47 he lost a lung to lung cancer. The pain of it -- and being down to one lung -- finally convinced him to stop. After that, he hated cigarettes too, and wished that tobacco could be outlawed.
His health was never the same after he lost the lung. He ate too much and didn't exercise enough, and 10 years later he died of a heart attack.
I hate cigarettes.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
I would respond like this: smoking is a want shared by a greater number of poeple than the number of people severly sensitive to it. Last I checked this was a democracy, where the majority rules.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Did you also check to be sure it's also a government in which all people are entitled to equal treatment?
And how do you respond to the ethical argument?
And fallow-relevance? This is about being forced to be around it. No one forces me to be around campfires to go into a resturant, or to go to work in the morning. I do react poorly to campfires. I would probably have the same problems at my current level of sensitivity. At my usual level, I've been around them and been fine as long as I stayed upwind and didn't stay around them too long. But due to smokers, It's been slightly less than a year since I've been anywhere approaching my usual level of health.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
How is it equal to make people stop smoking?
You seem to think that my point is not coherent enough to withstand small points like that, but believe you me, I am in for the long haul.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
its not making them stop smoking. It's making them take their smoking away from other people, so it doesn't injure them.
That aside, smoking is a choice. So if you choose to smoke, you subject yourself to the limitations inherent of it. Why should others have to pay because you don't want to stop?
[ April 04, 2004, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I think the question raised by the thread originator has gotten lost, but there are quite a few interesting points that have been raised. I'd personally like to see some of them explored.
why did I start?
Idle curiosity and a penchant for self-destruction on an emotionally cloudy day. I had no idea where that would lead.
fallow
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
StN, who's trying to make smokers stop smoking? Smoke all you want -- away from me, and Toretha, and the MANY others who are harmed by your smoke.
Interesting that you claimed this in the first post:
quote: I don't smoke. In fact, all that propoganda the public schools send out actually worked on one person. I don't want to smoke, and I suppose that is good for me.
You seem awfully defensive for someone who doesn't smoke.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
If you do smoke and it's a part of your life it's probably difficult to be objective about the issue. If protecting your own health isn't important enough to make you stop, protecting someone else's isn't going to be either.
I didn't even try to follow the original subject. I don't smoke, I was lucky to never really be exposed to cigarettes. Actually, I associate the smell of cigarettes with summertime things like fairs and amusement parks for some reason.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
I just feel that a large group of people should not be told how to behave by a smaller group. And yes, people are saying stop smoking. When one can not smoke in public, they are being told not to smoke. I know smoke is harmful, but if you are one of the few who cannot take it for a brief peroid, go somewhere else. You should not be able to say that others should not smoke in your presence.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
quote: You should not be able to say that others should not smoke in your presence.
Yeah, you should.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: Last I checked this was a democracy, where the majority rules.
The U.S. is a democratic republic. The majority doesn't always rule.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
Oh, boy. Here we go.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Okay, so that was not the best line in the world, but you know what I am saying.
And no, if three people are smoking, you should not say, stop. You should walk away, or hold your breath while passing.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
its not always a brief period, and its not always an option to go elsewhere. And there are places to smoke-your own house, stuff like that. It's just slightly more effort. And WHY should you not be able to say that?
[ April 04, 2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Avadaru is right on that one w/in reason. If a non-smoker is in a DESIGNATED smoking area, then it is N/A. If you have a reaction to smoke, then you should not be there. In UNDESIGNATED areas then tell them not to smoke in your presence. By all means you should look out for your own health, but don't expect everybody to know your specific condition.
quote: Oh, boy. Here we go.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Okay, so that was not the best line in the world, but you know what I am saying.
That it doesn't matter at all that some people get very sick because some other people want to blacken their lungs with cancer sticks?
edit: directed at Sober. Hmm... okay maybe this post is in bad taste, but I don't want to edit my mistake away, so I'll leave it as it is.
another edit: I'll add a quote to make it clearer.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Rappin' Ronnie Reagan ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Of course you should. And you should be able to find a seat on a plane not overflowing with someone's inability to control their caloric intake.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
There are relatively few who are affected to the degree that Toretha is, true. However, they are not merely affected -- the affect is debilitating.
And there are MANY who are immediately affected to a lesser degree. And everyone in the vicinity has long-term health affects.
Smoking is harmful to those around you (not to mention to the smoker themselves!). It is NOT a NEED or RIGHT. Breathing IS.
And no, requiring smokers to smoke outdoors (or in specific areas) is not telling them not to smoke. Banning cigarettes would be; and I am not in favor of that.
Oh, and fallow, I support legislation reducing the use of diesel fuel too. Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Smoking outside at office bulidings is reasonable. Working is something that needs to be done. However in restaurantes, there should be a non-smoking section and be done.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Except that the non-smoking section is inadequate. There is no true boundry to stop the smoke.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
smoke drifts over regardless of where you sit! Seperating seating doesn't do much good.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
And what of the people who work in the restaurants? And the fact that the smoke travels outside the smoking-area?
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
quote: And what of the people who work in the restaurants?
I may agree, but some restaurants have the staff members that smoke work in the smoking section. Not a bad idea, until you reach the fact that you may not have enough to cover a section.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
okay, see, you chose to work there, knowing that people are going to smoke. Bounderies could be better set. The smoke-allergic could be given a small room.
[ April 04, 2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: SoberTillNoon ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
rivka,
but diesel is so cool. I loved XXX, and my $120 jeans are the sweetest. my bum looks good in 'em.
*cough*
fallow
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
StN, then you outcast them? If I were them I would black list the place. I am a smoker, but smokers are not a vast majority.
Edit to say : XXX stunk
[ April 04, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
you choose to smoke, knowing it could hurt people. People are, under federal law supposed to be able to take any job they're qualified for, unhindered by disabilities that can be worked around
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Okay, let's try looking at this from another perspective regarding accommodation.
I have a friend who is as allergic to dogs as Toretha is to smoke. She can never come to my house and I have to make sure to wear freshly-laundered clothing when I visit her. She has her own office, but has to avoid co-workers who have dogs because the hair on their clothing makes her sick. She cannot go to public parks because everyone brings their dogs. She had to leave the Watermelon Festival because people brought their dogs.
Would it be reasonable for her to demand that dogs be banned from parks and the Watermelon Festival? What level of accommodation should she demand?
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Apples and oranges. Cigs affect (harmfully) everyone that is around them. Dogs don't.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I once chewed a stick of that nicorette gum while I was playing outfield during a softball game. The itching on my palms and soles got a little distracting - missed a few key plays. I had to ask one of my teammates to take me to the ER. I turned into like the michelin man. I couldn't open my eyes OR breathe. Then I got an adrenaline shot. It was sweet! All back to normal and stuff. Dunno if it was the nicorette, but I'm not going near that stuff ever again!
fallow
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
"Tried the patch. It kept sticking to my lips. Tried the gum. I couldn't keep it lit." -Bill Engvall
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Whether or not second hand smoke is dangerous to everyone is debatable.
Edit for clarity.
[ April 04, 2004, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Mrs.M ]
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Where? As far as I know Carcinogens (sp?) are bad for everyone. Goes with the alpha particles inhaled as well.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
quote:"Tried the patch. It kept sticking to my lips. Tried the gum. I couldn't keep it lit." -Bill Engvall
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
non-smoker: Please stop. Did you know that second-hand smoke is even more harmful to a person than first-hand smoke?
Smoker: Well, looks like I made the right choice.
Forgot what movie that was from, but that exchange always craks me up.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
How many dogs are there in resturants? or workplaces?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Having smoking and nonsmoking sections in a restaurant is like having a peeing and nonpeeing section of a pool.
Sorry if someone aldready said that, I admit I only quickly skimmed the thread.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
MrsM is right inasmuch as there is such a wide variety of quality and quantity of secondhand smoke, and the fact that different people have different capacities to tolerate particles in the air. The subject of what constitutes 'good' air quality and 'bad' air quality *is* the subject of much debate.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Stormy, that's exactly what I meant.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
quote:Having smoking and nonsmoking sections in a restaurant is like having a peeing and nonpeeing section of a pool.
I think you'll get an argument that boils down too- no, peeing in a pool is really, really gross. Smoking is just a little bit gross, and to a much smaller population.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:How many dogs are there in resturants? or workplaces?
Almost none, but there are tons of dogs on the streets and public parks. Sarah cannot go to the parks that her taxes help to maintain. Even walking from her apartment to her car can be an ordeal for her if people are out walking their dogs. She has to leave her house every day - there is no way that she can avoid it. She has to work with people who own dogs - there is no way that she can avoid that. Does she have the right to demand that her neighbors and co-workers give up their pets?
My point is this, I feel that the government forcing people to limit personal freedoms like smoking and pet ownership is dangerous. I feel that the government regulating what people can and cannot do on their personal property is dangerous.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Wait, I just realized something very important! You are never going to convince me, and I am never going to convince you. Phew, that makes things much simpler for me.
Mrs.M, I pass the buck, for I cannot take this anymore. Sorry to leave you alone - seeing that you are the only other person to share my point, so I am, indeed, leaving you alone - but I have had enough.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Sometimes you cannot just choose to walk away from second hand smoke. What if I am taking the bus, and it is raining, and someone is under the bus shelter smoking. Which do I chooses, to get drenched and perhaps get sick, or stay under the bus shelter and perhaps get an asthma attack from the smoke? And what if I have my children with me? It is very selfish for the smoker to expect another to get wet, or get sick, because they need their fix.
In our county, only bars are allowed to have smoking sections. The restaurants are smoke free. More and more bars are eliminating smking altogether too. This is because non smokers will usually not go somwhere with a smoking section. I won't is BAD BUSINESS for bars to allow smoking, and bar owners are responding.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Wants... to... leave... thread... behind... but... is finding it... hard.... Must... resist.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Also, there's a big difference between owning a dog and smoking. Smoking hurts everyone, including the person smoking. Owning a dog has a number of good sides, and dogs have a number of other used-seeing eye dogs, therapy dogs, all that. Please, show me all the great good smoking does to counterbalance the bad?
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Okay. I'm going to leave this thread. I am getting frustrated. I feel like I'm not being respected or listened to.
Here are my final thoughts:
1. I don't believe that smoking is harmful to every non-smoker. I grew up in a family that smoked, as did my husband, brother-in-law, and their cousins. None of us have any respiratory problems or any of the other problems associated with exposure to second-hand smoke. The 1993 EPA study that started the furor about second-hand smoke has been discredited.
2. Smoking does have benefits to smokers. I smoked for 5 years and it kept me thin and relaxed. I quit 5.5 years ago and I still miss it. I have not found anything that makes me feel as calm and happy as smoking did.
3. As I've said before, I feel that the government forcing people to limit personal freedoms like smoking and pet ownership is dangerous. I feel that the government regulating what people can and cannot do on their personal property is dangerous.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
but this isn't about what people can do on their personal property. Its about what they can do in public places. And you've not shown how keeping a smoker thin and relaxed balances out cancer potential, or the harm it does to other people. Smoking fails a basic cost benefit anaylsis that dogs pass.
I'm sorry if you feel like you're not being listened to, because I am reading and thinking about what you say. But I just can't see how it balances out.
[ April 05, 2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
toretha,
I think the title of the thread clearly reads "why start?"
I think the private/public debate is an interesting question, well no, it's not. It's kind of a nobrainer as I think the posts here demonstrate.
fallow
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Tobacco keeps you thin because it is an eating depressant. Calm....When you have the amount of nicotine in your body that it craves yes. Try not smoking for a day and see how calm you are. I realize you quit, but imagine how long that would last. I did this and lasted 7 hours w/o a cigarette. When my mind is occupied I can go all day without a cigarette. I don't feel to well the next day, but I can. It is also one heck of a buzz after the first cigarette.
I do believe that you should smoke on your private property. My property is my property. I smoke if I want to. However, the house I am at right now is owned by a smoker. Three of four of us are smokers that live in the house. It has been a house rule not to smoke in the house even before the non-smoker moved in. He'll go eat w/ us and sit in the smoking section. As long as we don't blow it in his direction, he doesn't mind.
As far as benefits.....could you have run a mile and a half w/o running short of breath when you smoked? I used to run a nine minute mile and a half before I smoked, and no shortness of breath. Now I run it around 12 minutes 30 seconds.
Test your blood pressure w/o a smoke. Have a cigarette, then test your blood pressure again. During this time keep your attitude and stress levels at what you would say as same. The results are different. Smoking will actually raise your blood pressure.
[ April 05, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Fallow- threads have changed directions before and will again.
And if its such a no brainer, why do so many people seem to be disagreeing?
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I have a confession to make. I think less of people when I hear they smoke. Realize that I used to be a smoker (25 pack years) and both my parents were, all my aunts and uncles (except one pair who quit), and my older brother (who also quit). When I was in high school and college nearly all my friends smoked. When I started work, smoking was still allowed in the workplace and I smoked away, totally oblivious of my effect on nonsmokers.
I know what addiction is like. I remember one time nearly going postal in the Toronto airport because after you get through customs but before you board your plane there is no place you can smoke. Not without going back out to the point that you will have to go through customs again, which takes an unknown length of time depending on the line, and so can't be risked.
Addiction changes your brain. It changes the mechanism inside the pleasure centers of your brain to reward the addiction, and in the process it also dulls the pleasure your brain is able to feel from everyday life. That is why, for instance, heroin addicts care more about heroin than they do about their children, parents, spouses, etc. The reward circuitry in their brains has been coopted away from love, honor, family and so on and toward the next hit. This is also why they get character problems, even if they had a good character before.
Nicotine does this neurochemical change to a much lesser degree, and yet it still does it a bit. Recovering nicotine addicts do experience depression, anxiety, irritability, and so on due to these neurological effects. They also care somewhat less about the things that bring other people joy. Their brains are trained away from those things, to a (luckily) mild extent.
So naturally they resist mightily any suggestion that they should give up their drug, and in addition to that, they are affected a little bit less by the suffering and needs of other people.
I have loads of admiration for Mrs. M. Like any prejudice it only applies to non-specific people. (I also love my mom a whole lot.) But it grieves me to hear that anyone smokes, and yes I tend to think less of people who do. I don't think it's a very honorable thing to do, smoking. And the idea of kissing a smoker is revolting to me, for instance.
So I guess this post is to urge people to please please quit, not because you are being forced to, but because you yourself choose not to have your brain taken over in that way. And because smoking is really icky. Switch to the patch, even, which decreases the damage to your lungs, and protects those around you from the ill-effects of your addiction. Then taper down off the patch for your own sake, so you'll know that you can do it, that you have that strength, and so you'll be free.
And I'll try to work on my prejudice, too. I'm sorry. It's wrong of me to feel that way about smokers. I will try to do better.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
That's a good point. Let that be a lesson to all of us.
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He quit when I was in high school, took it up again when his first marriage fell apart, quit when he had his quadruple bypass, and took it up again as his second marriage fell apart, or perhaps it was out of boredom caused by his health-caused early retirement. I wish he would stop, because I fear we won't have him around for very long--certainly not as long as we would like. ![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
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