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Posted by GradStudent (Member # 5088) on :
 
So I'm doing a lot of table formatting stuff in Word. Every time I make a change, I get "This action will not be marked as a change. Do you want to continue?"

Anyone know how to turn that off?
 

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Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
 
I'm punchy, and just got up, but it sounds like word is tracking your revisions.

What version are you using?
 

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Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
 
[envy]Looks like a feature of Word 2003[/envy]

Here's a link:

Edit: failed URL.

Good Luck!

[ April 03, 2004, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: eslaine ]
 

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Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
 
Too long, apparently.

Go to MS Office online and type "About tracked changes and comments" in the search boxy thingy.
 

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Posted by GradStudent (Member # 5088) on :
 
Thanks for your help. Don't be too envious, this is a real pain. I'm switching back to vi...
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Just turn off tracking. *kicks tracking*
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
*arrives too late to help*

*but knew the answer! Does that count?*

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
any decent text editor + LaTeX >> Word.
 

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Posted by Argèn†~ (Member # 4528) on :
 
You're going to switch to vi over Word 2003? Wow. In that case, care to give me your license of Word 2003, since vi is better for you?

Fugu, you are very wrong about that when considering Word XP and Word 2003. Their integration with other office apps and formatting capabilities way outshines plain text editors and LaTex. I would agree that it is often more than someone ever needs, but the comparison you've made is not accurate.

[ April 03, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Argèn†~ ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I was both slightly joking and slightly speaking for the average user. The average person I know is continually frustrated with Word, and often has to spend a while frittering with settings and backspacing over word inserted formatting before he gets the format he wants.

Compare that to LaTeX, where once you've learned the sorts of constructs you use, formatting just happens, in a very nice looking manner. Furthermore, the marked up document can be used to generate documents in numerous formats, from pdf to html.

That people use Word as a layout program is even worse. Word and the rest of the Office suite are a printer's nightmare.

Word has many, many capabilities, and its integration in particular is impressive, but most people have bought a claymore to slay a mouse, and it is a very expensive claymore.

That universities and other places use it as a format to turn in documents in is even worse, as it effectively requires most people to make a large outlay for Word (free alternatives for generating the documents notwithstanding, they are not well known at all, and people will only buy in their realm of understanding).
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
So, russell dear, how to we get LaTeX and learn how to use it?
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Actually, there's a great LaTeX visual editor out there (though I personally prefer learning the markup, its more explicit, most people balk at having to type things like \section{The Huns} )

http://www.lyx.org/
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
of particular interest may be this:

http://www.lyx.org/about/lgt-1.0/lgt.html

and this:

http://www.lyx.org/about/intro.php3

This may also be of itnerest (its a LaTeX distribution for windows):
http://www.miktex.org/

Once you've installed that (its just the processing engine), you'd pick the editor of your choice (you can even do it in notepad). Here's a list of those that integrate well:

http://home.nexgo.de/itsfd/texwin.htm

Probably the best route to go is miktex and then something like ultraedit (from that last page).
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Oh cool.

I ask because my friend who is typesetting my books uses LaTeX.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
There is a high learning curve with LaTeX. Its not for someone who wants to expend no effort. However, once you've expended the effort (and its not all that much, there're huge numbers of references and tutorials on using LaTeX out there) you're good to go. You know how to do what you want to do, pretty much completely.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
*nods* LaTeX is a great typesetting language. Its actually a descendant of an even more complete, but much more complicated and low-level typesetting language called TeX, which was developed by Knuth (one of the most important men in 20th century computer science).
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Bleah.

I think I'll let my friend keep typesetting.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Compare that to LaTeX, where once you've learned the sorts of constructs you use, formatting just happens, in a very nice looking manner."

Yes. And once you've learned C++, video games just happen.

Seriously, suggesting that the "typical user" learn a formatting language to do their word processing is like suggesting that the "typical user" start doing all their documents in XML. Your average user, assuming he or she is able to read help files and is willing to invest ten minutes in actually learning Word, will do just fine; the problem is -- as we see in this example -- that most users don't think to check help files and/or research the program they're using, and then blame the program for it.

While there are legitimate reasons to consider a formatting language like LaTeX, issues like this one -- where a helpful feature of Word, like Track Changes, isn't understood by the user -- aren't included. A user who doesn't know how to figure out what change tracking is, and doesn't think to even check the Help file, isn't going to figure out LaTeX.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Tom, LyX uses LaTeX and is a WYSIWYM (What You See Is What You Mean) program. Using LaTeX does not always mean using markup.

However, considering the typical user has readily picked up bits and pieces of HTML, its not at all far fetched. You were the one acclaiming the amature notepad website not so long ago.

Furthermore, your analogy is absurd (as you well know ). LaTeX is not used as a programming language. TeX is used as a programming language. LaTeX is used as a rather simple, high level markup language.

I daresay most people could learn to type the following when they want a list, for instance:

code:

---

\begin{itemize}
\item First Item
\item Second Item
\end{itemize}

---

code:

---

\begin{itemize}
\item 
\end{itemize}

---

(with the cursor positioned after \item, ready to type the first item.
No effort required, and this is with a text editor frontend. With a WYSIWYM or WYSIWYG front end, its even more straightforward.

[ April 03, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
To type a numbered list in Word:

Type "1) Something." Hit return. To stop typing in a numbered list, hit return twice.

To make a bulleted list in Word: type your items, highlight them, then click the bulleted list icon.

Yeah, LaTeX is inherently more flexible -- but for that matter, Word offers a fair bit of list flexibility, too, once you get into the Format menu. And I think you overrate the average user if you REALLY believe them capable of remembering how to wrap their list items in code.

Now, I agree that a true WYSIWYG editor with a LaTeX backend would be great -- but there's a reason they haven't caught on: the ones that have been written just aren't all that usable in office environments.

[ April 03, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Other software packages don't do well because Word is entrenched, not any huge failing on their own part. Everyone has the mindset that Word is necessary. (edit: I'm not just talking about LaTeX packages here, but other word/text processing apps in general).

The list example was merely an example of how LaTeX was not hard, not how it was superior to Word. However, as I've wrangled with the list functionality of Word more than once (and I do read the docs and check the help) there are definite situations where its autosense abilities can cause annoying problems, which just don't arise with LaTeX. There, what I say is a list item is a list item, and what I don't say is a list item isn't a list item, no matter how complex my structure.

[ April 03, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
 

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Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
 
How sure are you guys that LaTex and Co. will survive much longer? I've been hesitant to look into it because I don't want to crawl up that "steep learning curve", and then find out that less and less people will be able to read my stuff.

For example, any scientific publication I know of accepts *.doc or *.pdf (which nowadays can easily and fairly reliably be made from docs). The number that takes LaTex manuscripts is shrinking. Even "Science" refuses to take them for the initial submission.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
LaTeX isn't going away anytime soon . Entrenched academic tools stay, well, entrenched, largely because professors stay professors.

Plus, its still far superior for math editing and bibliography compilation (especially at the price).
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Also, LaTeX can be (and quite commonly is) used to generate pdfs.
 

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Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
 
I know, fugu. I'm saying that Word is just as "entrenched" in academia, if not much more already. There is an extremely loyal Tex community among physicists and computer folks, but that's a small part of the academic world, and this nerdy part may find it increasingly hard to publish papers in LaTex, methinks.

Edit to add:

<-- yells swear words at Word almost daily, and dearly wishes for a REAL alternative

[ April 03, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Sal ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Yes, Word is more entrenched. I'm not disputing that at all, and am in fact acknowledging that. Its just that my position is that Word's entrenchment is bad .

edit: and there's no reason you have to hand over the papers in LaTeX. As you say, most places accept PDFs.

[ April 03, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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However, considering the typical user has readily picked up bits and pieces of HTML, its not at all far fetched.

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quote:

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However, for most people its an expensive boondoggle that gets in their way. Heck, a lot of people would better be able to write up documents in a plain text editor with some spell checking.

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quote:

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Similarly, Word causes many people to view documents as less data than presentation.

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quote:

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I'm talking about people messing with layout not in order to enhance the message, but for the sake of messing with the layout.

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Those who do that send a message, neh?
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
katharina!

where have you been all my life?

fallow
 

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Posted by GradStudent (Member # 5088) on :
 
I am a computer science student. And I wasn't seriously saying that I would switch back to vi. It just seems...simpler.

I thank everyone for their help.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Those who do that send a message, yes, but even though McLuhan intended "the medium is the message" to mean that content is almost entirely irrelevant (which I don't think you agree with), it has been adopted by the design world in a different spirit, as the idea that the medium is important and can be used to greatly further the content -- unlike McLuhan's view, the central part of the message is still the content. This would perhaps be better manifested in a phrase like "the media enables the message", but its such a pretty phrase as it is already.

Those who mess with the medium definitely send a message, and I'm not denying that, not am I denying that this practice is old (see twice above where I state, well, exactly that; I'm still not sure why you keep restating this but I must assume you don't like how I've responded and so respond again). However, my position is that both many people mess with the presentation for no good reason (say, by making their paper be in Comic Sans, which is in fact a bad reason if they're going to print it out -- Comic Sans has horrid printed readability), and that Word particularly enables and encourages this sort of practice.

To step back to the original discussion a bit, my basic position on that is, if you are getting frustrated at Word regularly, try something else. Don't keep pounding your head on your keyboard when there are numerous other options out there. Evaluate what you use Word for, and then look for a word processor/text editor/what have you that fulfills those needs well. Don't get stuck in the I have Word so I must use Word mentality.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
fallow: Practicing my Word skillz, waiting for someone to notice them.
----

So my contention fits the statement, but not what the statement was MEANT to mean, nor what it is TAKEN to mean.

Nice try.

[ April 04, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Actually, your argument fits what the statement was meant to mean, but not what its taken to mean.

edit to add: nice try

[ April 04, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
 

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Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
 
GradStudent join the dark side and LaTeX

I'm not sure what you're researching but 1/2 of my profs expect my stuff will be LaTeXed and almost all of the conferences have LaTeX templates. It's also just easier, in my humble and not always correct opinion, to format math to make it look pretty. It also has nice ways to add code to a database.

Which school do you attend?

[ April 04, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: sarahdipity ]
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
I used Tex and LaTeX when I worked at ORNL a lifetime ago. I'm sure things have changed a lot since then, but I couldn't help my involuntary wince when I saw the advice to use LaTeX instead.

I use Word now. I turn off all autoformatting, including lists. Lists are one of the things that bug me most about Word, since, as a teacher, I frequently begin a line 1. blah blah blah . . . and don't want it immediately followed by 2. So I would not agree with Word's formatting of lists as a strength. I also turn off tracking of changes, after that one time I made a practice test by taking the actual test and changing each question, and then placed this test online for students to download. Luckily, it was I who discovered that you could get back the original test . . . as far as I know, no students did this. I have absolutely no issues with equations in Word, though. I use the equation editor that comes packaged with it. On two of my computers, I have the Equation Editor that they try to sell you (one came free with another piece of software). Honestly, the included one is less cumbersome than the one they expect you to pay for--and less buggy too. I know it has slightly less functionality, but I have rarely, if ever, run into any issues with it.

I'm sure there are lots of other great WYSIWYG word processors out there, but I'm happy with Word. Then again, as a teacher, I only paid about $70 for the whole suite . . .
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Argent -- that's because you already paid for it in tuition. The schools pay for a large contract to get that discount."

In all fairness, our college basically gets the latest version of Office free for all students, faculty and staff as a consequence of our larger contracts with Microsoft. It's both a blessing and a curse.

---------

Hey, fugu, can you recommend a LaTeX editor for Windows that doesn't require a shell? My wife's coworker is looking for a good math typesetting program, and she expressed interest.

[ April 04, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I'm not the most familiar with windows LaTeX editing programs (using OS X myself), so I'd suggest looking down the list here:

http://home.nexgo.de/itsfd/texwin.htm

This one looks interesting:

http://www.tex-tools.de/main.html

Emacs or XEmacs would probably be a good way to go as well, there are tools like X-Symbol ( http://x-symbol.sourceforge.net/ ) that make math editing easier, and of course auctex for the basic LaTeX abilities: http://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/

All that's really needed is a download of MikTeX, your favorite text editor, and a reference. Here's a beginning reference using Emacs, though it really applies to any text editor: http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~pyo22/students/latexRelated/latexTutorial.html

Here's a gui tool for writing equations in LaTeX: http://www.mathtype.com/en/products/texaide/

Though that will naturally be limited, it could be useful for learning how to use LaTeX's math capabilities.

This page has an excellent section on the mathematical capabilities of LaTeX:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwilkins/LaTeXPrimer/

Some more tutorials that look pretty decent:

http://www.tug.org.in/tutorials.html
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
The thing is, I shudder at the thought of trying to recommend markup and a text editor to someone who's using the Equation Editor already. Yes, it's more POWERFUL -- but unless it's actually easier, it's not going to work as a sell.

[ April 04, 2004, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Take a look at the gui editor as a way of transitioning.

edit: and also, if she's a mathematician, she's used to writing things out by hand. LaTeX isn't much different.

[ April 04, 2004, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
 

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