This is topic A Song of Ice and Fire thread, SPOILERS! The entire thread is ABOUT spoilers. in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
This is the only time I will use a spoiler warning. The entire point of this thread is to discuss theories, plot details, and speculation.
Okay, as some of you know, I am obsessed with this series.
So knowing that, I have been a member of the ezboard forum about the books for a while now. I check it nearly every day, and so have read just about every theory anyone's ever come up with.
Here are the major ones:
Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow: This one is the most major one in the books really. After rereading it, this fact is obvious. Anyone who denies it in my opinion is decieving themselves. I personally LOVE this theory, and am 100% sure of it.
Speculation on it: That the couple did marry (Targyreon polygamy). This means that Jon is legitimate. What this means is anyone's guess. Jon did take a vow.
Loris and Renly were Lovers:
Also an extremely obvious fact after reading it again. There is enough evidence of this to convince anyone. Beyond the fact that its true, to me it only makes the characters involved deeper. Also it makes certain exchanges and plot points make a lot more sense.
Tyrion isn't Tywins son:
This one I am up in the air about. The fact that Tywin says multiple times that he doesn't fully believe that Tyrion is his son is enough of a point for me to think its possible, but I am not personally a subscriber. Also, Tyrion has the fascination with dragons from the get go. Still, I doubt an author as good as Martin would pull the same trick twice.
The Knight of the Laughing Tree is Lyanna:
I am not 100% sure it was her, but I do think it likely. The only other choice is Brandon Stark in my mind. Lyanna being the Knight would also make sense for Rhaegar to fall in love with her, and crown her the queen of beauty.
[insert character here] is Arthur Azure reborn, or the Prince who was Promised:
To me the only thing certain is that its not Stannis. That much is obvious. Looking back on the story though, my bet is for Dany. She meets the prophesy almost to a T. The other candidates are Jon, Beric Dondarion, Bran, and about a dozen others. My money is on Dany.
Aegon Targyreon is still alive:
I am not sure on this one. The spoilers from the AFFC chapters suggest it according to some people. I say this one is 50-50 in my mind.
The horn of winter is the one that Ghost found:
I think this one likely. The horn in a GRRM story isn't going to be the typical fantasy extravagant one. Plus Yggrite said that they digged all those graves and didn't find it. My thoughts are that Benjen Stark found it, along with the dragonglass weapons, and hid them because he was being chased by Others or Wildlings.
Benjen Stark is Coldhands:
Not sure how likely this one is. Makes sense though. Who else could it be?
Syrio and Jaquen are one in the same:
This one is venturing into the realm of unlikely. I do think that Jaquen may have been the one to kill King Greyjoy though.
Varys is a bastard Targyreon (blackfyre):
Seems like the trick to give him his motivation. He seems like he is very actively trying to get a Targ back on the Iron throne. The odd thing here was that he seemed to egg on Aerys in his madness.
There are many many more. This is enough for now I think .
I am very interested on what you guys think.
If you need evidence (or in my opinion proof in the case of R+L=J), I can direct you to the right places, or paraphrase for you .
[ September 19, 2010, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
quote:Varys is a bastard Targyreon (blackfyre)
Huh. I don't think I've heard this one before (or if I had, I've forgotten about it). I do definitely think there is stuff about Varys we don't know, but I'm not sure this is it. I need to reread the books, anyway; it's been too long.
I found out about R+L=J on the ezboard. I am so ashamed of myself for not figuring it out for myself. I really like this theory. I also kinda like the theory that Jon and Dany are going to end up together. Ice and Fire, and all that.
Somewhere there was a listing of quotes that backed by the R+L=J theory. I would love to find that again, if only because I love GRRM's writing style.
*adds books to her list of things to reread*
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
Crap.
I love the books, but never grasped the idea that Jon was Lyanna's son. When Eddie pointed it out to me, I spent about half an hour beating myself up for not noticing.
And now I'm gonna have to do it again. Crap. Of course Renly and Loras were lovers. They're both the stereotypical beautiful gay men who -- or at least in Renly's case -- care so much about their appearence. Maegery Tyrell is a twice-wed virgin. Loras joined the Rainbow Guard -- as if that isn't enough of a hint -- and would take no wives, but still be conspiciously close to Renly at all times. Renly was a feminine kid according to Maester C----- (at Dragonstone), and appears to have remained that way his entire life...
I dislike stereotypes, and think Martin's better than falling back on them, but there's too much there to ignore. Jesus. Why didn't I see that?
Gah...
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Its more than that Eddie.
FAR more.
Renly asks Lorus to go "pray with him".
Loras goes nuts and kills the guys protecting Renly.
Loras tells Jaime about a love that he will never find again "when the sun is gone..." after Renly is killed.
It goes on and on.
I wouldn't say they are stereotypical though. Lorus is a great guy. He's the best lancer in the seven kingdoms. He is noble and good. He loved Renly deeply.
Wouldn't say he's a bad character at all.
[ April 16, 2004, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
Er, I meant to cite that second one, as well as Loras' sad silence when he escorts Sansa to meet his grandmother and sister as she reminds him of when he slew Ser Robar Ryce. Also, the significance behind Loras' decision to wear Renly's armor in the battle for King's Landing. Though the first and third bits you cited are new to me -- I must have missed them my first (and coming second) time around.
I'd say Renly fits the shallow effeminate stereotype fairly well. He's not flaming, but, among other things, his desire to look as pretty as possible sets up him to fall easily into the homosexual stereotype. Especially in relation to the rest of the world -- I can't really imagine, say, Robert as a homosexual. Nor Stannis.
Well, maybe Stannis... Heh.
If Martin really wanted to surprise us...
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Oh and guys, feel free to post your own theories and things...
Also any spoiler related stuff can go in here.
Maybe I will mention how much the red wedding made me sad .
Oh and if you are looking for non-sterotypical homosexuals, consider the black-fish.
Theres a reason he refused to marry...
Also the Red Viper was a bisexual, and the coolest character in the whole series! (besides Syrio maybe, and also maybe the Halfhand)
[ April 16, 2004, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
quote:Syrio and Jaquen are one in the same:
This one is venturing into the realm of unlikely. I do think that Jaquen may have been the one to kill King Greyjoy though.
It does sound like his type of assassination, but I doubt it. While it's extraordinary that Balon should die right then after a lifetime of crossing the bridge, the blame lies at R'Hollor's feet. While Jaquen may have been his catspaw, I'd put my bets on either the weather or possibly a direct or indirect hit by an ambitious Asha. She may have hired Jaquen, but I'm fairly sure he said he needed to return to Braavos, when he invited Arya to go with him -- I have serious doubts that he took a last-second job.
As far as Syrio equalling Jaquen, no way. They're both Braavosi and both have a fondness of Arya, but that's as far as the comparison goes. Well, no, they're both well trained in the skills needed to be an effective assassin -- silent as a shadow and whatnot -- and both are clearly talented at combat. And Jaquen does have the ability to become ridiculously different people. But no, Syrio had his sword chopped in half by one of the Kingsguard -- a man who lived through the experience, too. If it was Jaquen, I doubt the sword could've been destroyed, and I doubt the man wouldn't have been.
I loved Syrio, but I hope Martin doesn't try to rejuvenate him. There's far too much of that going around already. God, don't let Martin pull a Hobb on me...
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
The Blackfish? Gay? No way.
Well, crap, no wonder Hoster wanted him to marry so badly...
Shit.
Am I so blind? God, I thought I had gaydar...
And yeah, I dig the Viper. Didn't he mention he and his wife had never had a dwarf before, to Tyrion? Heh. Great dude.
Though my favorite character, above and beyond all others, is Tyrion. What a righteous little dude.
This is purely speculation, but given how butch Lady Mormont is, I'm guessing heavy-duty lesbian. I gotta find someone who's gay that you haven't identified yet...
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: It does sound like his type of assassination, but I doubt it. While it's extraordinary that Balon should die right then after a lifetime of crossing the bridge, the blame lies at R'Hollor's feet
Read the conversation of Jaquen and Ayra at Harrenhal. He totally says something which implies that its his assignment.
Gah!
I need my books!
And anyway, I think you give the God of fire and Shadow too much credit.
The Frey's killed Robb (damn them!)
The Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger killed Joffrey
Jaquen killed Greyjoy, at whose request I don't know.
Those three were all itching to be killed. Tywin died too, and there was no slug for him.
Are you of the opinion that Mel could have woken the stone dragon? I am pretty darn sure they would have ended up with a well done bastard child .
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I doubt it there Eddie. Being butch is the tradition in Mormont lands. Remember the carving of the woman with a bear skin and axe? (or something)
Plus she has a daughter thats equally butch .
Now who's the one invoking stereotypes? Wouldn't Brienne have to be too?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think the Red Viper was an idiot. A deadly idiot, but an idiot none the less. From everything we had been told, Gregor was enormous, the terror of the whole kingdom. The Mountain that Moved. What does the most deadly man in the kingdom do when he has beaten him? He dies due to idiocy, that's what.
Everyone there knew what the duel was about, and why he championed Tyrion, at least if they were nobles. Gregor even yelled his guilt out loud. So why taunt him, if your most important motivation is revenge.
I though he was cool, but that opinion didn't last past his death. Although it was a classic GRRM twist.
Kwea
[ April 16, 2004, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Disclaimer - I just barely finished reading the series and I went through it really quick, so I'm sure I missed a lot of details.
quote:Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Snow: This one is the most major one in the books really. After rereading it, this fact is OBVIOUS. Anyone who denies it in my opinion is decieving themselves. I personally LOVE this theory, and am 100% sure of it.
Speculation on it: That the couple did marry (Targyreon polygamy). This means that Jon is legitamate. What this means is anyones guess. Jon did take a vow.
Okay, anyone want to elaborate on why this is so obvious. I missed it. Also, I distinctly remember Arya meeting a boy who said he was Jon Snow's half-brother, and he even told her the name of Jon's mother, although I can't remember what it was.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
But if you follow the R+L=J, you realize that Wyla is just a decoy. She was Jon's MILKmother. Meaning she nursed him.
Let me know what you think after browsing the thread, and reading the quotes.
Also relavent is an email from GRRM where he avoids referring to Ned as Jon's father. If you need more proof I can find it for you. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The thing I love about this series is you're not sure who the good guys really are.
I mean, I love Jon. I really, really do. I love Arya too. the series started with the Starks, and I understandably loved them all, in their own ways, even if Sansa made me want to scream at times.
Then again - I absolutely love Daenerys too.
I can't wait to see how it all ends. GRRM is a genius, how he can keep all those plot threads straight - it makes my head hurt just reading this thread and I've read the books several times each.
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
I have mixed feelings about the Blackfish being gay. On the one hand, it would explain why he didn't want to marry. OTOH... well, I kinda feel that he didn't want to marry because that simply wasn't the life he wanted to live.
Ditto about Stannis. There's the adversion to women thing, but I've always felt that Stannis was more asexual than homosexual.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Basically the theory is:
*deep breath*
Rhaegar has children with Elia, but says he needs another one "his is the song of ice and fire". Of course the best way to get ice and fire is for Fire (Targ) to marrry Ice (Stark).
He gets this theory from the books he studied.
Rhaegar falls in love with Lyanna and crowns her the "Queen of Beauty" at the Harrenhal tourney. It is also here that he sings a song so sad it makes Lyanna cry.
Then Lyanna runs off with him (she loves him too and perhaps was convinced that their child was necessary).
Notice how Rhaegar orders three out of the seven kingsgaurd to guard Lyanna in the tower of joy.
Then Ned and 6 others kill the three, and find Lyanna in the tower.
She is in a "bed of blood" from childbirth. She knows that Robert would kill the child, and makes Ned promise to protect him, and perhaps raise him as his own.
Ned promises, and so lives a lie for 14 years (Jon's age when he thinks this).
If you read those quotes with this information in mind, it will be cystal clear to you.
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
quote:Let me see if I can find you the list of relavent quotes though...
THANK YOU! I've been looking for those. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You really have to suspend your shock meter with GRRM, too. I mean, I would never have expected him to have the balls to kill off Robb, after killing off Ned.
When I thought I really knew a character, he/she did something unexpected. I didn't think I could ever respect Jaime at all, not after pushing a small child out of a window, and yet....I actually see him as kind of Cersei's victim in some ways.
I hate Cersei. Loathe her.
I will say though - Daenerys hasn't shocked me. Not yet, anyway. I knew she would never give away Drogon. So when she bargained him for the Unsullied - I knew what was coming.
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
quote:Read the conversation of Jaquen and Ayra at Harrenhal. He totally says something which implies that its his assignment.
Gah!
I need my books!
Crap. Yeah, I've read the series in its entirety only once thus far, and I have yet to reach that spot again. God, I'm noticing so much more this time around...
I'll check, but gah, I thought he said he was sailing to Braavos. Remember his offer to train Arya? They'd have to go to Braavos for that, the the Iron Islands aren't exactly on the way. By the way, though Arya refused at the time, I'll put money on her eventual training in the arts of the assassin.
quote:And anyway, I think you give the God of fire and Shadow too much credit.
The Frey's killed Robb (damn them!)
The Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger killed Joffrey
Jaquen killed Greyjoy, at whose request I don't know.
Those three were all itching to be killed. Tywin died too, and there was no slug for him.
Whoa, they all died when the Lord of Light said they would. A crapload of people die in the book without having leeches burnt for them -- but three kings? Immediately after Stannis' shadowbinder does the ritual? It was the Lord of Light that killed those kings, the Tyrells and Freys and (insert name here) were simply his catspaws. That's part of the fun of the book, watching as each murdering party gets their motivation before Stannis even asks for the regicides -- Sansa effectively killed Joff at her meeting with the Queen of Thorns and told her that Joff would abuse Margaery. Robb killed himself when he broke his promise to the Freys -- also when Roose Bolton's bastard was killed by the Stark castellan; despite the courtly letter sent thanking the Starks for murdering his son, you know Bolton was furious about it. Or possibly he'd gotten in touch with his bastard after his supposed execution when he was gathering men to kill Ser Rodrick and Theon Greyjoy, and the two devised a plan.
I think the Bastard's going to play a huge role in the series. If only for his immense value as Jon Snow's foil. Plus, he effectively rules the North now, the Greyjoys' doomed efforts aside.
quote:Are you of the opinion that Mel could have woken the stone dragon? I am pretty darn sure they would have ended up with a well done bastard child .
Melisandre? Possibly. Though I don't think Stannis is, as you said, the true reborn prince -- in fact, given that he's up in the North, I don't think it's at all improbable that he'll suddenly die and Jon Snow will assume command of his army. Though, no, Jon would just use them to fortify the Night's Watch. Huh. No, that's a theory dead on arrival.
I've read that section only once, and that was many months ago. I'll have to renew myself with the particulars of the ceremony. Something about bringing a dragon from stone, right? If that's the case, then Daenarys is the prince reborn. She did that three times, and with the blood of another.
Goddamn, sorry if I sound vaguely confused, I think I'm a bit sick. I'll lie down with a gallon of water and the books and finish them off tonight, let you know my opinion once they're freshly reprinted on my mind.
quote:I doubt it there Eddie. Being butch is the tradition in Mormont lands. Remember the carving of the woman with a bear skin and axe? (or something)
Plus she has a daughter thats equally butch .
Now who's the one invoking stereotypes? Wouldn't Brienne have to be too?
Of course I'm falling back to stereotypes. I have to find someone homosexual you haven't identified yet. No, I don't actually think Lady Mormont's a lesbian, though I'm anxious to find someone who is just to upstage you and Eddie.
Beyond Irri, of course. There are remarkably few lesbians in the book. And it's still the best non-literature I've ever read. Amazing.
As far as Brienne goes, she's ridiculously predictable. Jaime will fall out of love with Cersei and despite his best efforts, will instead grow to love Brienne. Cersei feels snubbed, wants revenge on both, and chaos ensues. I thought Martin was less predictable than this.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Oh and xnera, that site is awesome!
I have never seen the theory (FACT!) shown with such clarity and structure .
Gonna be a bookmark from now on.
Oh and I think I would be doing you guys a diservice by not mentioning this great ASOIAF site.
Take a look through the portrait gallery. Some are better than others, but I love that he does them! Martin likes Theon, Littlefinger, and Dany the best. I agree with one and two, but the third I don't like at all.
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
Gah, no, I have mind portraits of every aspect of A Song Of Ice And Fire. It's partly why I became so upset when I visited GRRRM's site and saw the standards for each house -- they look nothing like they actually are, at least in my world.
Am I alone in my need to abstain from all false idols?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I thought the same thing about Ned Stark; and Robb.
I thought I knew Jamie Lannister, and Tyrion.
I thought Lysa too timid to do anything at all.
I can't wait for the next book, btu even shock wears thin as a plot device. The most unexpected thing GRRM could do is NOT kill off a major character this time around...
Kwea
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
Gah! Now that I know Loras is homosexual, this makes so much more sense...
quote:With the Red Keep so crowded, Tyrion could not hope to go unnoticed. Ser Balon Swann stood guard on the door, and Ser Loras Tyrell on the drawbridge. He stopped to exchange pleasantries with both of them. It was strange to see the Knight of Flowers all in white when before he had always been as colorful as a rainbow. "How old are you, Ser Loras?" Tyrion asked him.
"Seventeen, my lord."
Seventeen, and beautiful, and already a legend. Half the girls in the Seven Kingdoms want to bed him, and all the boys want to be him. "If you will pardon my asking, ser -- why would anyone choose to join the Kingsguard at seventeen?"
"Prince Aemon the Dragonknight took his vows at seventeen," Ser Loras said, "and your brother Jaime was younger still."
"I know their reasons. What are yours? The honor of serving beside such paradigms as Meryn Trant and Boros Blount?" He gave the boy a mocking grin. "To guard the king's life, you surrender your own. You give up your lands and titles, give up hope of marriage, children..."
"House Tyrell continues through my brothers," Ser Loras said. "It is not necessary for a third son to wed, or breed."
"Not necessary, but some find it pleasant. What of love?"
"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it."
Yeesh. Good catch, Javie. I know I missed that one first time around.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I read the first book, and I really enjoyed it. I wasn't too far into the second book when I was really put of with the description of some jerk prince having some serving wench perform oral sex on him. It's not that I thought it was pornographic -- it's just that I don't enjoy reading about that sort of thing. I'm pretty much a prude.
So let me know -- was this an abberation, or not? Does he get freer with his talk of sex as time goes on like Jordan did in his books?
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
You're probably describing Theon Greyjoy's voyage to the Iron Islands, when he bedded the captain's daughter.
Martin's not free with sex, but neither is he -- thank god -- ashamed of it. He writes the truth of it. The importance it plays in each man's life, the amount of attention and level of priority each character would keep sex at in his/her life. It's the best portrayal of real life I've ever read, and gives a great deal of power to the realism of the series.
So, yes, Martin's honest about sex. If you blushed hard enough to close the book because you read that a character had oral sex, it may be for the best that you never finished the series.
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Xavier, thanks for the links, and after reading them, I have to agree, it's pretty darn convincing. One thing's for sure, I'll definitely have to read the books again.
As for that gallery of pictures, I'm not impressed. The characters look way cooler in my mind (Although I like the drawing of Tormund Giantsbane).
And I just want to echo everyone here who has said it's impossible to predict what's gonna happen next. It's great! He's brutal with main characters and villains alike. And I have to say that the Epilogue to Storm of Swords was the most chilling thing I've ever read. I thought it was bad enough when Catelyn died, but that's nothing compared to her coming back to life! I almost feel sorry for the Freys.
Masterful, masterful storytelling.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I'll check, but gah, I thought he said he was sailing to Braavos. Remember his offer to train Arya? They'd have to go to Braavos for that, the the Iron Islands aren't exactly on the way. By the way, though Arya refused at the time, I'll put money on her eventual training in the arts of the assassin.
You did notice she gets on a boat to Bravos for that very reason right? Thats why the boat people agree to take her when she says "Valar Morghulis".
quote:When I thought I really knew a character, he/she did something unexpected. I didn't think I could ever respect Jaime at all, not after pushing a small child out of a window, and yet....I actually see him as kind of Cersei's victim in some ways.
Actually Belle, Jaime is a popular character with the ladies over at the ezboard. When someone starts a thread on who they want to marry or something, he gets mentioned all the time . I often say "He pushed a child out of a window!!!!" but it falls on deaf ears. I knew girls liked bad boys, but that's ridiculous.
quote:The thing I love about this series is you're not sure who the good guys really are.
I mean, I love Jon. I really, really do. I love Arya too. the series started with the Starks, and I understandably loved them all, in their own ways, even if Sansa made me want to scream at times.
Then again - I absolutely love Daenerys too.
This is one of my favorite things too .
I am a Stark Loyalist, but love Dany as well. There are other people who are Stannis loyalists, or Tyrion, or even the Hound. Its crazy. There really are no bad guys .
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
There are villains?
The single best aspect to A Song of Ice and Fire, to my eyes, is the conspicious lack of "bad guys." House Lannister conspires to take over the throne, but who in Westeros doesn't? Jaime's just a brash young man with no thought to consequences, not a smirking incestuous baby-killing regicide. Tyrion's one of the bravest and noblest (or at least most tragic) characters in the book, not a the twisted imp his nickname suggests. Even Cersei's not a villain -- she's ruthless in the protection of her children, yes, and strong enough to not deny herself and her love for her arranged marriage with Robert. But she kills only in defense and pre-emptive defense. While I think she's a manipulative bitch when it comes to Jaime, she sees Tyrion quite accurately as her primary rival for the power of House Lannister -- she's right to treat him as such.
Are there any actual evil people in the book? Balon Greyjoy's a hard man in a hard land who believes his son's been corrupted by the father's conqueror -- he's right to not trust Theon, and not just for historical reasons. Varys is clearly allied with Ilyrio, and the gods only know what they're up to, but there doesn't seem to be actually malicious intent in either of them -- in fact, Varys gives genuine regret to both Ned Stark and Tyrion Lannister, going so far as to help Tyrion both take his revenge and escape the castle.
The nearest to evil, I suppose, is Gregor Clegane. And even then, the man's just an unthinking brute who gets pointed in the direction where Tywin Lannister wants rapine to happen. He's sadistic and unremorseful, but evil?
That's Martin's strongest point. Just as in real life, there are no actually evil people, as much as we'd all like to believe there are -- though there are certainly people who do evil things in the name of their cause, few go home and twirl their mustache, plotting which virgin to put in front of a moving train next. Bush is corrupt and incompetent, not evil. Bin Laden believes he's fighting against the powers that have -- and they have -- abused and murdered his people in the name of making profits off the only resource his people's native lands have to offer.
If there is a Lord of Light, may bless Martin for not following into the ridiculously stupid trap so many novels, fantasy or otherwise, fall into of making mindless hordes or sleazy villains. His song is one of people against people, surrounded by a greater plot of gods vs. gods. Which is why it's among the greatest novels of all time, and easily tops my chart for non-literature.
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
I'm not entirely sure Arya's yet set on becoming an assassin, though I have no doubt she'll eventually become one.
As far as Jaime Lannister goes, yeah, if I were just the slightest bit more homosexual -- or, yeah, a chick -- my dibs would be on either Tyrion or Jaime. Jaime's confident as all hell, smart, funny, and willing to fight no matter what the consequences -- it's hard to not be attracted to that kind of personality. He's an alpha male through and through.
And of course there are Hound loyalists. I'm among them. Were I to wake up in Westeros tomorrow with a good sword, I'd find a way to travel with either Sandor or Tyrion.
The Starks annoy me. I like Jon and Arya immensely, but gah, if you left me in a room with Catelyn for any extended period of time, one of us would be dead within hours. The woman's thought processes are too obnoxious for my tastes, though I have to give her props on her debating ability.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I REALLY am urged to tell you the spoilers from AFFC Eddie .
I know something you don't know...
Actually lots of things .
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Speculation's fun, but the great part about GRRM's books is that I know he's still gonna surprise me...
I mentioned it in the other thread, but GRRM's got a chapter (about Arya) posted over at his website -- www.georgerrmartin.com -- look under "samples." He had one about Daenerys posted before that, but that one's not up any longer.
(If you can find it, "Dragon" magazine had an excerpt of maybe 4 chapters about what's going on over in the Iron Islands... think it was the March '03 issue?)
And there's the chapter about Cersei that's at the end of the paperback A Storm of Swords.
Anyone know of any other published excerpts from A Feast for Crows?
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
Those seem to cover the published chapters. But he's also read chapters out loud at various cons. You can find details at the ezboard, in the aFfC forum. Which I am going to right now to reread.
As for me, I've never liked Catelyn, thought Sansa was a bore until she got caught up with Littlefinger, disliked Jaime until he got a POV (and then loved him), have always liked Tyrion, think Dany is cool, and hate Cersei, though love reading her. I don't know who to root for or who I want to win. I do know I want both Bran and Jon to survive.
And yeah, GRRM does great characterization. Like others, I love that everyone is shades of gray: there is no blatantly good or evil. He's so good at well-rounded characters. I remember reading one of the books (I forget which) and there's a throwaway character we see only for a minute, but instead of being Generic Guard or what have you, in three lines GRRM managed to make him a character. I loved that. I need to find that section again.
Yeah, I think I'm going to be rereading the books this week.
[ April 17, 2004, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: xnera ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: The single best aspect to A Song of Ice and Fire, to my eyes, is the conspicious lack of "bad guys."
Actually, I think a case can be made that Sansa is the villain of the series. One theme that seems to run throughout the book is that in a world where everyone must struggle to survive, the only real crime is not to struggle and allow yourself to be a pawn. Why hate Cersei? Personally, I felt like kicking the crap out of Sansa several times throughout the book.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:There are other people who are Stannis loyalists, or Tyrion, or even the Hound. Its crazy.
There's people who LIKE Stannis??? Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Yeah, Sansa's really annoying... I keep wondering if she's gonna develop any character... but then I also appreciate (as annoying as she is) that GRRM shows us a character who's such a screwup, it's a good contrast to the other characters' growth...
Sansa's lack of development is kinda like Arya's wolf... I keep expecting Arya's wolf to show up again, only she hasn't, and it makes me wonder if GRRM is deliberately playing against expectations by NOT having Arya's wolf re-appear...
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I like stannis. he's just like every other character, he's doing what he thinks is best. he feels cheated and is trying to rectify that.
I think the thing I like most about this series is that despite the high number of prophecies/visions Martin manages to keep them straight and make them all meaningful, unlike many authors who ignore some or make them ambiguous enough that it doesn't matter if they are never explained.
And his characterization is marvelous.
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
Fact: a future book will be called "A Dance With Dragons" Fact: In the first Dance With Dragons, brother and sister fought with dragons in a civil war Fact: there will be a second Dance with Dragons (see last email here
Conclusion: Either another dragon will appear (a product of Azor Ahai?), or someone will wrest control of a dragon away from Dany.
So, who do you think will control this second dragon? Possibilities:
Euron Greyjoy: we know from The Arms of the Krakken that he possesses a horn which is believed to control dragons, and that he plans to head for Dany and wrest her dragons away from her.
Bran: He has the ability to warg, and might be able to control the dragons that way.
Whoever Azur Ahai is: the prophecy reads: "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."
Any other ideas?
Also, who do you think will end up on Dany's side/will meet her in the next book? Euron is a definitely possibility for the meeting part. Some fans speculate that Tyrion's on his way to Dany's neck of the woods. Arya's going to Braavos, which isn't *that* close to Dany, but I wouldn't be surprised if they end up meeting. Any other possibilities?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think I see what GRRM is doing with Sansa. I think she will be the one to make Littlefinger pay for all that he has done, and it will be by outmanuvering him because he underestimates her, much as most of the readers (myself included) have.
Littlefinger once had a discussion with Sansa about life as a chessboard. He told her that you either move people or you get moved yourself. (a VERY loose paraphrase, of course) I think that she will learn to control herself by watching Littlefinger and learning from how he manipulates events. She will either succeed, or barley fail (because the lack of her wolf); or succeed but take the fall as well because her wolf isn't there to save her.
I am looking forward to reading the new book as soon as I can get my hands on a copy.
Oh, and I don't think GRRM uses sex too much, and he isn't graphic about it at all. Most fantasy series use sex more often, and often graphically (don't read any of Carey's Kushiel books, or ant Laurell K Hamilton). GRRM isn't too bad; as a matter of fact I didn't even remember that scene until you mentioned it. The only real mention of it is the relationship with Jamie and Cersi, and that dynamic is flawed at the onset, and directally results in most of the bad things that happen to Westros.
Kwea
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Kwea, Considering that Sansa still hasn't gotten a clue after her father died and then living with the Lannisters, I have to wonder what it will take to get her to start actually sticking up for herself and playing the game of thrones.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Are these books that good? I hadn't heard of them but an old friend recommended them the other night. Pretty glossy and a hefty page count... kind of a turn off for me.
fallow
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
If page counts intimidate you fallow, stay away.
Anyway, I totally think Sansa is going to be a major player in the game of thrones. In the spoiler chapter, after Littlefinger explains that its best to tell people what they want to hear, she tell him something he wants to hear in order to decieve him.
She's not stupid. She is just naive. She was a dreamy little girl who had to wake up right quick.
And she did change after her father died. She was going to push Joffrey off the castle walls if the Hound hadn't stopped her. She saved Dantos at great risk. She took charge when the women were freaking out in the tower room. She escaped. She told the Tyrells that Joffrey was evil at great risk to herself. She told Joffrey to his face that Robb will beat him, and got beat for it. She didn't kneel to Tyrion, her only possible act of defiance on being married into the family she hates.
Those who still hate her for making a mistake which may have led to her father's death are the same people who love Jaime and the Hound. Jaime attempted to murder a child, and the Hound actually took joy in cutting one to pieces.
I am not saying that either of those characters can't be redeemed, but give me a break. Sansa's only crime was being a trusting and naive eleven year old.
[ September 19, 2010, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
ok franky (xavier),
why won't I like them? Aside from my abiding fear of thrones and little fingers?
fallow
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
1. They are very long. Something like 2500 pages so far and they aren't even half done yet.
2. They are complex. Extremely complex. They have a cast of literally thousands of complex characters. For some (like me) this is a good thing. Not so much for others.
3. How much do you read? Haven't you not even have read Ender's Game? Start in the shallow end before swimming in the ocean.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Yeah, yeah, Xavier. She's been just a passive pawn except when goaded.
You know what's kind of odd when you think about it is that Sansa is nothing like either Arya or her mother, Catelyn...in fact, she is nothing like ANY of the other Starks or the Tullys.... Doesn't this strike you as odd? I never really stopped to think about it until now....
[ April 18, 2004, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Xavier,
Recently, I've been looking for some things to delve into. I was wondering at particular things that have caught other readers of this series (or any other book or author, for that matter) and whether those things might engage me as a reader. Aside from the complexity inherent in such a tome, I was wondering if there was anything beyond fantastical escapism to sink one's teeth into?
fallow
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
If that's the case then fallow, yes, it is a wonderful book. Its so far beyond fantasy that I would almost put it in the historical fiction category.
Great stuff.
And hey, even if you don't like it, you'll still be giving GRRM more money .
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
quote:Yeah, yeah, Xavier. She's been just a passive pawn except when goaded.
You know what's kind of odd when you think about it is that Sansa is nothing like either Arya or her mother, Catelyn...in fact, she is nothing like ANY of the other Starks or the Tullys.... Doesn't this strike you as odd? I never really stopped to think about it until now....
Well, if you think about it, Arya's nothing like either the Starks or the Tullys. Neither, arguably, is Bran. Or Robb -- not cold enough to be a Stark, and House Tully has no particularly identifiable personality traits.
Sansa's the worst "frail woman" stereotype in the book -- but then, she has tough competition. Cersei kept her lover even after being forced to marry Robert, then wound up killing poor Robert after a marriage of slow corruption and entropy. Lady Mormont and Brienne are some tough bitches. Even Catelyn, passive obnoxious annoyance that she is, is willing to kill -- and does -- for her children. Sansa's learning how to manipulate people at an extraordinarily young age -- I don't find it unlikely she'll soon rule the Vale.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:In the spoiler chapter, after Littlefinger explains that its best to tell people what they want to hear, she tell him something he wants to hear in order to decieve him.
Ack! Please don't post any spoilers from chapters that haven't already been published. (I know, this one's pretty general... but I don't wanna hear about anything before I've had a chance to read it myself...)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Yeah, I agree. Please don't post spoilers of stuff that hasn't been published yet. That would not be cool at all.
Daed, we'll see what happens. I'm open to the idea of Sansa changing. The next book or two should be very interesting. Given that Sansa is the oldest Stark child and marrying her means controlling the north, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out when Littlefinger *really* gets going with both Harenhall and Winterfell as his own. When Sansa is queen of something in fact as well as name, I think we'll see her come into her own element.
[ April 18, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Reading all those websites you guys linked made me think of something.
There were two separate entries that seemed to correspond with one another. One was a prophecy that told Dany she would need to go east to go west. And another said that she would have three husbands. The first was the Khal, the third was clearly Jon (a blue rose sprouting from a wall of ice), but the second was a corpse at the prow of a ship with a grey smile. An earlier prophecy said that she would bed her first husband, dread her second, and love her third.
So here's my guess. Dany sails east, around the world, and allies herself with Euron Greyjoy to attack Westeros's western shore. Perhaps Euron's extensive travels have taught him a route that he could help her take. Euron is her second husband, but then something horrible happens (as you can always expect from these books), and he either dies or betrays her. He being a Greyjoy, I'd guess the latter.
[ April 18, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
What was the name of the priest of the Drowned God? The one who died and was spit back out by the Drowned God, and rededicated his life to the old ways? Theon's uncle.
Was that the one you were talking about? Because he might fit the bill.
Kwea
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Victarion was his name.
Euron is someone else, who is revealed in Arms of the Kracken. He has blue lips and a horn which is said to control dragons. He's on his way to Dany at the end of it.
I don't WANT Euron to be one of Dany's brides. I don't like that guy, and I love Dany.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Would Sansa rule the North since she's the eldest? Or would it be the next oldest boy (Bran)? (Or maybe it'd just depend on who was considered to actually be alive... can't remember, is Sansa also considered to be dead?)
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
Sansa's not considered dead, but she's in hiding -- a fugitive. Arya, Bran, and Rickon are all missing and presumed dead. Littlefinger may be able to -- and probably will -- work out a deal where he insists Sansa had no part in the assassination, marries her, and becomes the lord of Harrenhall, the Eyrie, and Winterfell.
And Javie's an idiot. I love the dude, but sigh, what an idiot.
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
quote:What was the name of the priest of the Drowned God?
quote:So here's my guess. Dany sails east, around the world, and allies herself with Euron Greyjoy to attack Westeros's western shore. Perhaps Euron's extensive travels have taught him a route that he could help her take. Euron is her second husband, but then something horrible happens (as you can always expect from these books), and he either dies or betrays her. He being a Greyjoy, I'd guess the latter.
Heh, I was just rereading the Arm of the Krakken thread yesterday, and someone came up with this exact theory. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. Do you think the various "three" prophecies are tied to each other, so that the "mount to dread" is also the "treason for gold"? It's possible, but I don't really feel like Euron's out for gold, unless you consider Westeros==Gold.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Actually, I had thought the route is well known to get from Westeros to the Free Cities to wherever it was that Danys sailed from to begin with. In fact, didn't the last book conclude with her on her way to the Free Cities, or am I misremembering?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Great, I go offline for a week, and all the good speculation's taken.
Hmmm...lemme think of something.
The third head of the dragon will be Aemon Targaryen, and Bran will pilot the dragon from the ground.
And as the prophesy says nothing of marriage, if I remember correctly (my books are currently on loan, aka gone forever), I don't find it odd for Dany to ally with Euron. Never marry, but maybe love for the furtherment of her cause.
But in my mind, I always picture her starting from the North, not the West. Maybe it's hope that she and Jon conquer together, but I also see the dragons as being a boon to the fight against the Others. And that's what the whole series is about, really. I mean, the final book is going to be called The Winds of Winter. I'm not sure if she's going to conquer the kingdom, then fight the Others, or if she'll defeat the Others and win the love of the people, who'll then agree to make her Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
So many different possibilities...the only thing I'm sure of is that Jon's is the song of ice and fire. Geoff's excerpt above is actually what sealed it for me. Lyanna has always been represented by the blue rose.
I'm interested to see what goes down in Braavos, too. Arya's on her way, so's Tyrion, and so's Dany. Maybe we'll find the "treason for gold"? Lannister=Gold, so far, and I wouldn't put it past GRRM to play a bit on words.
One thing's for sure, though: I can't wait to meet Howland Reed.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm still wondering where the whole Tyrion/Richard III connection will gel. Martin's said a few times that he was doing a fantasy version of the War of the Roses, and I'm curious as to which infants Tyrion will have to kill to maintain his hold on the throne.
My guess is that they'll be Littlefinger's and Sansa's, but that's at least a book away.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, that brings up another point. I wonder if at some point the book will skip ahead some years? Personally, I would like to see a grown-up Arya going all Jet Li on people. Not to mention, it would be kind of cool to see the adult dragons in action. Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
My experience with this series has been kind of strange. Since I started it, I've been trying to figure out who the "main" or "central" character is, or would turn out to be. Now it looks like there may not be one, but I haven't conceded that point yet.
First, I assumed it was Jon Snow. That is still a good possibility. However, enough weird, unexplained stuff has happened with Bran that there is a distinct possibility it could be him. And, since Daenerys hasn't turned out to be a "bad guy," and yet her plotline is building up so much, and so independently, there is also a possibility that she will end up as the "main" character. And, in a weird way, even Tyrion has some arguments to be made in his favor.
I guess I'll just have to wait and see who "wins."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As I understand it, according to Martin, Dany and Jon are the "heroes" and Tyrion is the main villain. But it may be more appropriate to simply observe that most of the characters are protagonists to themselves. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've always been mystified as to how Martin could conceive of Tyrion as a villain. It...just doesn't add up to me, somehow.
As for a time gap, Storm, Martin's original plan was to have five years pass between books III and IV, but he found that he was spending too much time in flashbacks and the like, and so had to scrap most of what he'd written and start over, with book IV picking up pretty much where III left off.
You know, I'm curious--above, Lalo said that he considered A Song of Ice and Fire to be the best "non-literature" book ever written. How do you define "literature" Eddie?
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
No, Tyrion's not a villain. At least, not by any definition that makes sense to me. His father, Tywin, was definitely a villain.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I am not sure where you are getting this info Tom.
According to Martin, the War of the Roses was one of several things he loosely used as inspiration to the series.
He never said there was a 1-1 correspondence.
In fact in a "So spake Martin" he tells a reader not to take any historical parallels too seriously. That the books were certainly inspired by history, but that they aren't a portrayal of history itself.
I repeat, where are you getting this?
[ September 19, 2010, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:You know, I'm curious--above, Lalo said that he considered A Song of Ice and Fire to be the best "non-literature" book ever written. How do you define "literature" Eddie?
Me and Eddie had a long debate about this last night.
He ended up saying that if A Song of Ice and Fire was literature, so was a penthouse letter.
[ September 19, 2010, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I got the "Tyrion as villain" information from no fewer than three interviews he's given, all of which are linked to on his site. I don't have time to find the specific references right now, but he's quite explicit. In a little bit, if someone hasn't beaten me to it, I'll go looking for them.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Thanks Noemon .
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Xavier, I see. What an odd attitude to take toward ASOIF, or LOTR for that matter.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: Martin: There's a number of things. I think his wit is appealing. He gets off a lot of good iconoclastic, cynical one-liners, and those are fun to write. He's also a very gray character. All my characters are gray to a greater or lesser extent, but Tyrion is perhaps the deepest shade of gray, with the black and white in him most thoroughly mixed, and I find that very appealing. I've always liked gray characters more than black-and-white characters.
Thats all I found so far. It certainly doesn't reflect what you guys are saying.
Any help here?
[ September 19, 2010, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Being "The Villain" in this series doesn't mean you're entirely evil, or even mostly evil. Nobody in the series has that trait, and even many people on the "good" side are pretty nasty.
I suspect that if Tyrion is "The Villain", that means he's the man who must be defeated before the final chapter of the story can be resolved. Neither Jon nor Dany is yet in a position to be the dominant heroes, either, but by the end, it is their victories that will define the outcome of the book, so they are the heroes. Tyrion started out reasonably good, if unscrupulous when threatened, but as his life has gotten worse, so has he, to the point of becoming a cold-blooded murderer.
Similarly, Jaime started out horrendous, until we discovered that his Kingslaying was actually for the better good, and his horrific behavior is largely due to his sister's influence. He's still done some awful stuff, but I think he's likely to atone for it by the end.
The fact that we like Tyrion now doesn't mean he's not on the path to villainy.
[ April 19, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I think it's pretty clear that the only reason Tyrion murdered his father was because of extreme duress.
quote: It was shortly after this point I blocked him.
Did you block him just because he thought the Song of Ice and Fire series wasn't 'literature'?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I think it's pretty clear that the only reason Tyrion murdered his father was because of extreme duress."
Which is, of course, one of the great things about Martin; we've got plenty of people making excuses for murder, simply because we understand why the character felt driven to it. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Sure. Absolutely. But I think motivation and outcome speaks to whether or not we should judge someone as a villain. I think killing someone because they forced your wife to be gang rape is, oh, an understandable motivation for killing the person who caused this injustice?
Compare this to my choice for villain, Sansa. Her motivations are weak and the outcomes are bad for everyone because she goes along with the bad people and is their pawn. This goes back to the central theme of the book, which is that the only sin is to not struggle. Many people have died because of her. Contrast this with Tyrion who, it's pretty clear in the book, tries to do what would usually be considered 'right', but isn't any man's fool. He extends mercy when possible and punishes those who would usually be considered as 'bad' people in the book. In many ways, in fact, Tyrion is the MOST good person in the book. I don't understand how he can be considered a villain at all.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I don't either Storm...it just doesn't make any sense to me. In fact, I'd assume that I had misread, but a few months ago I had this discussion with my parents, and went and found the relevant quotes. Unless I'm misremembering completely, he does make this claim, and make it repeatedly. Have you found it yet Xavier? I'm having a bit of a busy day at work, so I haven't had time to look.
Posted by Livious (Member # 2326) on :
I was filing Tywin's death as a good deed. Now telling Jamie he killed Joff... *that* was cold, and might mark the beginning of a shift to villain from almost-hero, at least on my personal scorecard. This might become clearer in the next book.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't know if you two have noticed this about the series yet, but one of the major themes seems to be that a great deal of evil can be done even if one has the best of intentions. In other words, it's the means and not the ends that define the man.
As to villany: I think you actually need a fair bit of deliberation to be a villain. Sansa doesn't qualify, because she lacks any introspection. She's done harm, but isn't a classic villain in the sense of the word.
There ARE classic villains in the books, although most of them have been killed off by this point. But part of the great thing about the novels is that it's hard to still think of someone as a villain once they get a single viewpoint chapter.
Martin's operating philosophy seems to be that all men want to think of themselves as heroes, regardless of facts. Consider the evidence that Robert, for example, was almost certainly a villain. And yet Ned was one of his fastest friends, right? Would Ned, whom we regard as a straightforward hero, have supported Robert in his treason and his massacre of the royal family if he'd had reason to believe that the king was not in fact mad?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Oh, I'm not arguing that I think there is a villain in the book. I'm just going along with the conceit that if have to pick one, then I think Sansa might be a good place to start. Though, I agree with you that Robert is a good choice, too.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Xavier,
Thanks. How does it go beyond fantasy? It kinda looks like everything else. I read the Thomas whatsisname stuff at one point, being told it was something beyond Tolkein, but it didn't really turn out that way... other than being angsty at length.
fallow
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
One big difference I've found with this series as opposed tp most fantasy is that the fantasy elements are not very conspicuous. Magic is not used very often (if at all, depending on your interpretation of the events) and the emphasis is definitely on what the people do - the regular old people that don't have any special abilities outside their brains and brawn. As the series goes on the fantasy elements are developed more fully, but the plot is still driven by very human actions.
It's been called historical fiction because for the most part, it's just peopledoing what they do, just in a medieval setting.
Also, the way it's written is definitely different from any other books I've read. The author moves the story along by sequentially putting you inside the head of key characters - but there are a lot of them. It took me a while reading the first book to get used to all the jumping around, but when you do, it really draws you in.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Fallow: I enjoyed the Covenant series, but not the way I enjoy most fantasy. Those books were filled with very, very cool concepts, but I found the writing style to be very boreing. to the point that I had trouble finishing them. I actually enjoyed the second series better than the first. I loved the Land, but I could care less about Covenant himself.
I think what the author (Donaldsondid best was use a non-heroic viewpoint fairly sucessfully, for maybe the first time, and that was a novel approch at the time.
GRRM is a FAR better writer than Donaldson, IMO. He writes in an engaging style, and he upsets the normal fantasy conventions that are almost clishes (sp?), in that there are many viewpoints, and many people are portraied as human. There are heros' that fall from grace, villans that become heroic, and the most honest man in the Kingdoms is also not popular, either in the storyline or with fans of the series.
I think it is some of the best writing I have ever read. And I read a LOT of books.
Kwea
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Kwea, who's this "most honest man" you're thinking of? The only characters I can think that would fit that description seem to be fairly popular. Just curious.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
sweet!
I meant to buy it last weekend. I definitely will this coming weekend.
There was a thread around here about reading lists and whatnot. I got the impression from that thread that folks mostly read into the SF/fantasy genre (not surprising, sure). But, (maybe I missed them) I didn't see too many refs to other types of fiction. I was raised on the SF/fantasy stuff, but I've also found an enormous amount of reading pleasure in traditional authors of academic-repute, and then some of the NY Times bestseller variety.
I'm still on the lookout for that kind of thing.
fallow
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but I'm about to finish the 2nd Chronicles of Covenant, and I really don't see how you could say it doesn't have any deeper meaning. The whole point of the books is about deeper meaning. ::shrug:: It seems to me that if you read it simply as a fantasy action story, you would definately get bored with it, because you aren't focusing on the point. But whatever.
--AR
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, ignore fallow; he's just being a snob. C'mon, think about what he's saying: that a book with the standard fantasy trappings CANNOT be literature, because it's held captive by its own genre.
This is a standard claim of elitists, but it's proven wrong pretty easily if you look at what we DO consider literature nowadays, most of which was the genre fiction of its age.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I realize that Tom, but I just have a hard time believe someone could not recognize the greater depths of Covenant. You'd have to be trying to miss it. It's like reading Card's Homecoming series and saying you didn't see any spiritual concepts (which I have a friend who swears there's nothing spiritual in that book).
--ApostleRadio
EDIT: I'd like to see a fight between book snobs and music snobs. In this corner, those who only think "real literature" has merit, and in that corner, those who think that the only music worth listening to is by people you have never heard of.
[ April 20, 2004, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: prolixshore ]
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I just have to bump this thread. I am re-reading the series for only the first time and have picked up SOO much more than I did the first time through. Then I saw that poor reader getting her heart broken about Ned's death (that was SO two books ago)...just had to get some discussion going.
I just read two sections that very much support some of the discussion on here. One is the R+L=J formula. Jojen harps to Bran "Are you sure your father never told you this story?" as Meera tells Bran of the little Craggonman. This pegs it for me, I think.
The second piece supports the "Jaqen killed Balon" bit. When the Lem, Tom and that crew are searching for the Lightning Lord, they ask the old woman, that seer. She says to them:
"I dreamt I saw a Shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from its wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror."
The first is clearing Stannis killing Renly. The second really sounds like the faceless man killing Balon. The next bit is confusing. Ideas? The last I assume is Catelyn and her amazing final bit in the book.
What are Catelyn and the Lightning Lord, at this point? I am curious what others think.
Speaking of the Others, what are they? A friend suspects they are "elves" in traditional Tolkein-esque terms. Or maybe the Children, all grown up and angry.
I have half a book to go before being finished with Storm of Swords and maybe more will come back to me.
Can't WAIT for Feast to come out. I spoke with a developer for a MUSH based on the books and they have had contact with Martin recently. They really think he is going to finish up in the Summer and have it ready to read about 3 months after that (5 over in the US). I hope so.
fil
Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
I haven't had time to read all this so may be repeating - I've got to go to bed as I've work in the morning. But just have to say:
I love these books and definitely need to reread as I really struggled to place a few of the characters when I read the first post.
My theory from reading the books is that Rhaegar desired rather than loved Lyanna and abducted her - then either married her by force or just went ahead and raped her - thus she became pregnant with Jon. I think she'd died following childbirth and knew that Jon would be killed if anyone found out he was Rhaegars and so made Ned promise never to tell anyone. Ned being loyal stuck by his promise by claiming Jon was his.
Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
I've got to do some serious re reading before I get the next book.
And I've just started re reading the Mallorean. Now I'm torn between the two. Thanks a lot Xavier Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Yeah, I reread the series a few weeks back, and meant to post on this thread with all sorts of supporting evidence. (The first time I had only the vaguest idea of what was going on, as I was reading it in snatches during a week in which I was supposed to be building a kitchen.)
I agree with Fil on most everything, though I'm still unsure who the "[on Jacquen's shoulder] shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from its wings." Neither Jacquen nor Balon have any connection with the Night's Watch, do they?
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Maybe we have had Jaqen with us from the very beginning? Maybe he returned with Tyrion from the first visit to the wall and has been one of the background characters before we met him as Jaqen? I remember wondering if he was the Braavosi swordsman Syrio, but that felt a bit off.
I do like that Arya is already becoming a "faceless" person, to an extent. She changes her name as the situation demands, being Arry or Weasel or Nan. Very hip.
Did anyone read "The Hedge Knight" or the other short story? I didn't read the book but did get the comic version of it. Very cool stuff, too. It is referenced in a one page story that Jon hears while on the Wall. Castle Black's Maester Aemon was born around that incident from the Hedge Knight. They talk about the tourney that happens and the repercussions from it. I like that it was the original splitting of the Fossoways (Green and Red Apple). First time through the books I never caught that but second time through, it was cool to read about both version of Fossoway!
I hope he does more stories set in other points of the world's history.
fil
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote: though I'm still unsure who the "[on Jacquen's shoulder] shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from its wings."
Balon's brother, who will now take the Greyjoy throne, is named Euron Crow's Eye.
He doesn't really appear until Feast for Crows, though.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
So will Jon of the Ice and Dany of the Fire get it on in the last book? If the theories of their parentage stand, it would be no big thang if this couple got together.
Did Thoros have his cleric-like abilities prior to his run with the Lightening Lord? I got from the earlier depictions he was mostly fronting the priest part. He seemed more into bashing heads with his fake flaming sword and drinking with Robert. Did the rebirth of "magic" coincide with him, too?
Another discussion I have had with a bud is when did magic come back? Was it when Dany lost her baby to that evil maegi or when the Dragons were reborn? Or, like the Tick, was the magic in us all the time?
fil
Posted by cochick (Member # 6167) on :
I didn't click to the joining of the ice and fire aspect before - thought it was just a comparison - doh!
But have felt for a long time - not sure which book I was reading at the time - that Jon (Ice) and Dany (fire) would end up together - incestuous marriages not being a problem for their family - reintroducing the line of Targaryen back to the throne. Despite his vows I think Jon will be thrust into leadership. Jon should have the hereditary powers to control a dragon if Rhaegar is his father.
I think that Bran will become the first prophet/ disciple of the Lord of Light which will become the main religion. I also feel he'll get to fly a dragon - thus fulfilling his flying dreams.
I love Arya - she's such a tough little cookie - I hope she does get reunited with her wolf but I'm not sure if that will happen - I do think she'll become an assassin behind the guise of a Lady - she has to become beautiful as she gets older - too many hints about her being ugly and plain.
Not sure about Sansa - she's getting wiser - it took long enough though and I think she'll end up killing off Peter - it'd serve him right as he's used her so much and thinks she's pliable.
fil - Thoros I think was a lapsed cleric who found true religion during his campaign with Dondarrion he saw the light - literally
Do we know how many books the series is going to be - GRRM isn't going to do a Robert Jordan and go on forever is he?
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
Villains, to me, are those that enjoy doing what they know to be wrong. Poor Tyrian did the world a favor by killing off his dad, but patricide has to be as tough on the classic, literary soul as incest.
I was in Borders today and they said that Feast for Crows is on their list books to be released 8/3/04.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
I can almost guarantee that Baelish won't be dying anytime soon (the "almost" put in because with Martin, who knows?). He's the only major behind-the-scenes power player -- arguably, he's the power player. He had Lysa kill Arryn, he arranged the fall of the Starks, he seized both the East and Harrenhal in a single swoop, he's the only character Varys can't predict or control...
Varys is also, I'm reasonably sure, secretly allied with the fat merchant who housed the exiled Targaryens for a time. What was his name... He sent Barristan and Strong Belwas to protect Dany, whatever his name was. As I recall, he met with Varys in the catacombs under the palace, in the room with the dragon heads, overheard by Arya.
But no, Baelish is freaking brilliant. He won't be killed, not anytime soon -- though I can easily see Sansa betraying him and taking over his operations once she's trained in the game of thrones.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Also, I can't really see Bran becoming a disciple of the Lord of Light. Rather, I'd see him chasing after the Children, possibly rowing his crippled ass out to God's Eye to find them after this deal he has going with Coldhands (Benjen Stark, possibly?).
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't think that Balish will die soon, but I do think that Sansa willl best him, probably by outmanuvering him. The pupil surpassing the teacher so to speak.
I think (the post was written a long time ago) that I was speaking about Ned Stark, and also Janie Lannister, when I was talking about the honest man.
Ned is popular with readers, but not with the characters in the book...they are all hiding too much to be friendly.
Jamie starts off horribly, but as you find out his motivations he gains sympathy. He has been used by everone...Cersei,Trywin, Ageon; everyone see something in him to their ouw benifit. The one selfless thing he does, killing the mad king before he burns the whole city down, earns him the disrespect of all the other principals and the epitath Kingslayer.
He wasn't honest about Cersei (and Bran), but he is painfully honest by the end of the last book.
Kwea
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:I was in Borders today and they said that Feast for Crows is on their list books to be released 8/3/04.
I wouldn't save up for that date, though. They have had a solid date since it was meant to be released last July, I think. They just keep shifting it. Go to www.georgerrmartin.com and look under "Feast For Crows" section. If there is still the letter dated January 2004, then it ain't done. We are 3-5 months away from it being published here from the date he puts up the "it is finished" letter and we aren't there yet.
As for numbers of books, I have originally heard 5 books but I think he may have raised that to 6. He keeps finding new avenues to take in the story and it keeps building. I still kind of wish he ends it with five, though. I hate to say it, but he ain't getting any younger I don't want to have to wonder what was on his mind for the finale.
fil
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
No new news on the site...I just checked.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Since this thread was ghost-bumped, I may as well gloat that I finally got my WorldCon membership and am getting to hang out with GRRM (I'm volunteering/hanging out with his fan club-of-sorts. Yeah, I'm a nerd) at NoreasCon in September.
So I'll probably try and commando my way into his hotel room and sneak a peek at some manuscript pages.
So who wants to touch me?
I SAID WHO WANTS TO TOUCH ME?!?! Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Well, if we're gloating...
He'll be writer-in-residence week after next here at Odyssey and he'll be critiquing some of MY work. Okay, so it's not really a gloat; it's more of a panicked 'why am I in the computer lab on Hatrack instead of working on my piece??'. A cry for help even.
But still. I get to work with him :-)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*Nervously tip-toes up to Frisco, touches him, then runs away*
I'll never wash that hand again. Le sigh.
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
*chases Storm, Pepe Le Pew-style*
*bounce*
*bounce*
Come to me, my love....
Sharpie, along with your real pieces, you should write a really steamy ASoIaF fanfic, just to see the look on his face.
Might I suggest a love affair between Loras and Gregor, titled "The Mountain That's Ridden".
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Here's something fun -- a book review of A Game of Thrones from when it first came out (found it at one of the websites featuring a GRRM interview):
quote:this work is stodgy. A hundred pages have passed before the various groups move on to their next endeavours There is no way that this book needed to be as long as it is, and it contains too much over-worded, ambiguous, bad writing.
I'm really glad I'm not that reviewer Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Yeah, the guy missed the boat. Oddly enough, though, this is how a good friend of mine felt after reading about 100 pages of it... He went on and on about the purple prose, excessive use of needless descriptors, etc. (he is a fan of Hemingway's "cut the fat" school of writing?). Anyway, I thought he would give the books back to me, the rest unread.
That was a month ago. He is now almost done with Storm and is salivating for more. He is a huge history buff and LOVES how well researched it is, how throrough the world is that Martin created and loves every little detail that Martin gives us. So there! It may take some a while, but eventually they get it. I wonder if this reviewer ever did?
fil
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
FINALLY! I'm done! Yes, that is where I have been. Mourning my broken computer and reading the ASOIAF books.
Wow.
I have so many things I want to say but I will get right to the point.
Eddie's theory that Arya will eventually become an assassin. No chance. You don't really think that Martin will let her live that long, do you?
Yes, Ned dying nearly put me over the edge but not as much as hearing what happened to his sword. Xavier assures me that Brienne will do some noteable things with the part of it she is now in possession of, (like save a Stark with it) but I am still not a happy camper.
Forgive me, love, (Xavier) but the way you have defended Sansa in this thread makes me want to roll my eyes. Claiming that her naivate is all due the fact that she is young. No. Arya is smart enough to make strong willed decisions but her older sister is a wimp. Admit it.
Now, I love the girl, but she is in serious need of balls. I know that with all the things Martin has put her through she is going to toughen up (at least I hope so). With all that said, the scene of her in the snow was very touching and you were right, I felt sorry for her after reading that. Poor girl was meant to live a pampered life in a castle where she could be a little bird by reciting her "Please" and "Thank you's" with a flawless curtsy. It is unfortunate that her fate may lay elsewhere.
So many more things to add. I'll be back.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
ack! Valentine, please, no spoilers about books that haven't been published yet! (I know, that was a very general one, but can you edit your post to get rid of it? Thanks...)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Plaid;??? I didn't see a spoiler of a new book. All the thing I saw were in the previous books.
The sword was split in SoS...Ned died in GoT, and Sansa in the snow (while Peter watched) was also from SoS, when he kissed her and Lyssa saw it.
Or was it edited out before I saw it? I didn't see any sign that it was, but it wouldn't be the first time I missed something obvious...
Kwea
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
It's the bit about Brienne (very general I know, but still...)
Posted by Member (Member # 3008) on :
It was a prediction, not sure knowledge.
Xavier has read a good deal of the spoilers for AFFC, but the fate of Brienne and "Oathkeeper" is not mentioned in the ones he has read.
Sorry for the confusion.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Sorry, I missed that. Actually, it was so vague that it dovetailed with my predictions about Breianne, so I didn't even remember it!
And i don't have any hidden knowledge, so....
Kwea
[ July 10, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
quote:A Song of Ice and Fire thread, SPOILERS! The entire thread is ABOUT spoilers.
Was that not enough warning?
I'm almost tempted to post something about Euron Greyjoy and his horn that controls dragons...
But I won't.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
There's a difference though between spoilers about what's already been published, and spoilers about what hasn't been published yet.
I'm happy to read any excerpts from A Feast for Crows that're available. BUT: I want to read them myself, and I don't want to hear any spoilers from stuff that HASN'T been published, because that'll, well, SPOIL the fun of actually reading them myself...
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Not going to edit my post. The thing about Brienne was just Xavier and I throwing out some possible ideas of where the story might go, not a future plot gotten off of a spoiler site. Not to mention, what is the point of this thread if not to discuss exactly those things: spoilers?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Oh good, glad that wasn't a spoiler.
Talking about what MIGHT happen IS a part of this thread, but that's not a spoiler, that's just SPECULATION. Speculation is fun and wholesome... but, again, there's a difference of spoilers for what's already been published (and what everyone has had a chance to read)... and the spoiler for something that HASN'T been published yet. If you want to talk about spoilers for not-yet-published stuff, please do it in a different thread. I like to read the surprises as they actually happen, and not have them told to me...
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Why, does Frisco have a copy of the new story?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I was re-reading Storm of Swords yesterday when it occurred to me that Richard Littlefinger is Heathcliff, and Catelyn is (loosely) his Catherine. It's like Wuthering Heights, only with the volume turned way up.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't think so....lol...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You don't think? He's a young, largely penniless man without a title who's in love with a landed noble. Her father treats him like a servant. Her sister dotes on him, and she claims to love him more than anything. But while he goes off to make his fortune in the big city, she marries for money and power. He comes back, then methodically sets to destroying the lives of the people he believed "wronged" him. He also entraps and manipulates her daughter, marries her sister to gain the same estate where he was once humiliated, and so on. (It's worth noting that Littlefinger's estate in the Fingers is very close to the Grange in its description.)
Minor details are changed, of course, but he strikes me as a very Heathcliffy guy.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I can see Heathcliff but not so much Catelyn as Catherine.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
quote: Talking about what MIGHT happen IS a part of this thread, but that's not a spoiler, that's just SPECULATION. Speculation is fun and wholesome... but, again, there's a difference of spoilers for what's already been published (and what everyone has had a chance to read)... and the spoiler for something that HASN'T been published yet.
Maybe a new category? A SPOICULATION? Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I was more refering to all the swords.
Were there swords in WH?...benn sooooo long I don't remember... Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I just bought "A Game of Thrones" last night. I look forward to reading all the spoilers once I'm done.
space opera
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Tyrion started out reasonably good...
Similarly, Jaime started out horrendous,"
I finally finished!!
OK, I think that the Tyrion-Jaime switch is very poignant. I think the moment when Jaime frees Tyrion in the cell is key. It is the point where they both are the same. Both are maimed, both are changing. Tyrion has been good. Tricky, but good. Jaime has been bad, but is starting to have/show more of a conscience. Once Jaime tells Tyrion about Tysha, it all changes. Tyrion snaps into the villain role, and Jaime(I assume) into a hero role.
I just thought that scene was very well done.
OK, back to reading the rest of this thread. Sorry if this point has been made.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Also, I disagree with Sansa being a dolt. I think she is going to become one cagey young gal. There was a scene at the Fingers when Littlefinger is telling her about the game of thrones. Something sort of changed in her. I can't remember exactly why i thought that, but I think Littlefinger will become her mentor, and she will have a big part to play in the plotting.
And, Tom, I totally see th Heathcliff thing.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I don't know if Jaime started out horrendous...just our interpretation of him was bad. He seems himself as the hero who destroyed the kingdom's worst enemy... the Mad King Aerys. Everyone else sees him as the Kingslayer. I think it is all perception. Tyrion on the other hand sees himself in a more honest light and knows he is a ruthless little bugger who is always underestimated for his value. I think both are free to do new things, though, now that Father Tywin is out of the picture. I think all three sibilngs are going to significantly change now that they are out of his shadow.
fil
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
As a side note, I have NEVER been able to slog through Wuthering Heights. I thougt I was a romantic, but it wasn't worth it at all. I was so irritated with the characters! In Song, Littlefinger interests me none at all.
Jaime, though, is fascinating.
Posted by Vera (Member # 2094) on :
I think the reason most people see Jaime as "bad" at the begining has less to do with killing Aerys and more to do with throwing Bran out the window.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Vera...hmmm...details, details... :-)
There is that. But still, we knew him as that but the characters in the book still saw Jaime as a villain long before the Bran thing and long after it when most didn't know that it happeened. From our perception, though, that is true.
fil
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Once you reach the third book, I thought it was abundantly clear Jaime was never a villain at all -- the most evil thing he's done seems to be lying to Tyrion about Tasha (?).
As for Tyrion, he's no villain, either. He tries to screw with his brother's head at the end of the third book, but that's understandable revenge -- he's probably a little insane for the moment, but that won't last. I'll be interested in seeing where he goes. Probably to the clans.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure there are any villains, a point I (and others here) have long stressed. Possibly unthinking brutes like Gregor and the Brave Companions, but beyond them...
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Lalo:"the most evil thing he's done seems to be lying to Tyrion about Tasha (?)."
Um, what about pushing Bran off the side of the castle? You can't have forgotten, since that was the subject of some of the most recent posts. So how is that less evil?
[ July 19, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: UofUlawguy ]
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
My guess:
At some point, Jaime and Catelyn are going to face off over Bran's fall, and by that point, we'll be totally on Jaime's side and will be totally freaked out by Catelyn. Yet Catelyn will be in the right.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Interestin, RNG. I definitely came to dislike Catelyn more and more throughout the story. I never forgave her for her treatment of Jon, and it went downhill from there.
And as for the sexy discussion? There is no contest, of course. Eddard Stark is the single sexiest male character I have read in a long time. Even though he is dead, I still get a flutter when one of the characters mentions his name.
Jaime Schmaime. And I will never forgive HIM for the CASUAL way he threw Bran out the window. And how about Ned's guards, and Ned himself? Can you honestly say he was a nice guy, Lalo? He is still responsible for his actions, no matter what his childhood waslike and no matter how much supposed power over him Cersei had.
My prediction is that he will fall in love with Brienne. I MIGHT forgive him then.
[ July 19, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I am liking Catelyn less and less, as well. She reminds me of what I think Sansa will grow into though I am not sure specifically why. I think Catelyn and Cersei will switch in terms of who we as readers are going to find more sympathetic. I think all of Tywin's kids are much more interesting as we get to know them and find that they have harsher reputations than they actually earn. Now that Tywin is gone, I think like the other two she is going to come out of her shell even more and will grow up a bit (she is fairly childlike in a lot of ways...having Daddy around telling her what to do doesn't help that).
I also agree that no one person can have "villain" attached to their name but some are more evil than others. Just when you think a person might fit that title, they do something that makes you re-think that position. The most recent was Melisandre...I totally pegged her for nasty goods (and in many ways, she still is) but now that I see her coming into her own with the quest to destroy The Other (and the Others), it makes me question my original ideas on her. Gah! Get that dang new book out now! Now, I tells ya!
fil
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Tywins kids have worse reps than they deserve?
Cersi killed Robert, and Eddard (through Geoffery), slept with her brother and raised her insesous child to the throne risking many, many lives.
She is having her own brother hunted, and was pushing for his death long before Jeoffery died.
Can't wait to hear your idea of a bad person who deserves their rep....lol... Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Um, what about pushing Bran off the side of the castle? You can't have forgotten, since that was the subject of some of the most recent posts. So how is that less evil?
Admittedly, I thought of that after pushing "add reply." But even then, he did it in the name of love, not to become the Starks' arch-nemesis. It's an evil action, but not done for malicious reasons, and I don't think it makes Jaime a villain of the story.
Similarly, with Elizabeth's point about Ned's guards, Jaime was acting on behalf of his brother and his family's honor. A highborn Lannister had been kidnapped -- the lives of a few guardsmen are nothing compared to that kind of offense. Or so it runs.
And, er, Kwea? Cersei didn't kill Robert. Lysa did, under instructions from Littlefinger. She's arguably the most malicious character in the novel, but you can't pin that one on her -- at worst, she's petty and cunning and vicious, especially as regards her brother, but don't expect that impression to last long. From that teaser Martin gave us at the end of <i>Storm</i>, I expect she'll have delusions of grandeur, maybe ambitions she can't fulfill. I don't expect her to die in the next book, given that there are few who can replace her -- she's effectively the only Lannister out for power, at least in terms of aggressive dominance. Jaime's removed himself from the game and Tyrion, while he'll probably seek revenge, is effectively disqualified from ruling his House, much less the kingdom.
I can't wait for Jon and Daen to meet.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: At some point, Jaime and Catelyn are going to face off over Bran's fall, and by that point, we'll be totally on Jaime's side and will be totally freaked out by Catelyn. Yet Catelyn will be in the right.
It will be interesting to see if she has regained the power of speech in AFFC.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
She had a hand in it as well. She was worried that Lancel would tell someone about Roberts wine, remember. I think it was in the teaser chapter as well, unless I am mistaken...but I don't think I am.
At the very least she was assisting..
I agree that Lyssa is a horrible character, very selfish and coniving...just not as much as Littlefinger.
I think most of the villains in this series are more amoral than immoral. No evil character (or at least not many) thinks of themselves as evil...they always have a good reason for their actions. Hell, even in real life people do that...Hitler had his reasons, and Mussolini, and....well, you get my idea, anyway...
Jamie knowingly pushed a child out a window trying to kill him. That is not the act of a "misguided" person. Or it is, but that doesn't absolve him from responsibility for his actions. One of the things that I like is that there is a lot of gray characters, characters that could be both.
That doesn't mean that there aren't any villains though.
I think Cersi is one of the worst....her "love" of Jeoffery is so misguided that it wrecks the kingdom and brings war down on everyone. She knows that he isn't really the heir, and not Roberts, but her own selfish desire to rule (and her "love" for her brother) threaten to kill the whole kingdom. She always has an excuse, but it doesn't matter....she places her own desires above the rule of law and above the well being of the kingdom. That is a pretty clear cut villain to me.....at least for now...
Kwea
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Cersei reminds me of Lucretia Borgia.
I think the face-off will not be between Dead Kat and Jaime, but between Dead Kat and Cersei. And I think Cersei is going DOWN.
That was one creepy scene, by the way, when they hanged the Frey dude.
[ July 20, 2004, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Another thing. I do not think that Cersei did kill Ned Stark through Joffrey. I think Littlefinger was behind that as well.
Does anyone know WHEN the new novel is coming out? This is terrible. I am going to end up unable to read anything for ages.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
I've got to argue with something that Eddie brought up on the first page. He said:
quote: That's Martin's strongest point. Just as in real life, there are no actually evil people, as much as we'd all like to believe there are -- though there are certainly people who do evil things in the name of their cause, few go home and twirl their mustache, plotting which virgin to put in front of a moving train next. Bush is corrupt and incompetent, not evil.
I've got to say that if several of these people aren't evil then the word has no meaning at all. Evil people don't have to sit around planning mayhem all day. Evil people simply have to be selfish enough that they will serve their own pleasure/comfort at huge expense to others. It is like making a family lose their home so you can pocket an extra fifty cents.
Take Gregor Clegane for example. There is one scene, recounted by one of his lackeys, in which Gregor rapes a peasant girl simply because her father asks Gregor to tell his men to leave his daughter alone. He also kills the man's son in the same scene.
How can you possibly say that that is not evil?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Ack! Heh, crap, it's getting fuzzy in my head.
My bad, Kwea, Lysa killed <i>Arryn</i>, not Robert. Yeesh. How did I get that confused? Who am I? Where are my pants?
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Elizabeth...er...I think this is from pre-release materials, right? IIRC, this was out of bounds for this discussion for those of us not interested in getting spoilers for the book that isn't out yet!
fil
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Oh, crap!(so to speak.)
I am SO sorry! I read the chapter at the end of A Storm of Swords, and I just incorporated it into the rest of the story. I will delete my post.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Oh, sure, fine. I finally finish Book 3, and am ready for the spoiler thread, and everyone else abandons it. Wahhh.
Posted by ? (Member # 2319) on :
quote: Yes, I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.-Tyroin to Jon
I was reading these books again when I came across this quote. My thought was, maybe, however unlikely, Jon is the son of Ed and Lyanna. They went and pulled a Jamie and Cersei on us. If Dany is the fire, she's pure fire being the daughter of two Targyreons. Maybe Jon is then pure ice being the son of two Starks. I know it's highly unlikely. It just popped into my head while reading. ?
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I still stand by the Rhaegar/Lyanna parentage for Jon. I can't see Ned being as base as the Lannisters and Targaryens. I think the chapter where the Reed kids tell Bran the story about the Mystery Knight and so on tells the story pretty clearly. But it is an interesting idea, the sibling on sibling action. It would make sense why Cate treats Jon with more contempt than people usually treat bastards. My wonder if, if the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing or Ned/Lyanna thing is true...either way...does Cate know the REAL story? If not, would only Howland Reed (great name for Blues singer, I would think) be the only one alive who knows of it?
Here is a question I wonder about, speaking of the Reeds. What do people think about the "moving castle" thing? Literal? Magical? Practical? No castle but simply a roving camp in the swamp? I am assuming we will be meeting Reed in the next book (I hope so, at any rate). Though to be honest, I don't know in what context. Bran and the Reeds are heading north. Cate and the Lightening Lord are going to be busy killing the zillion Freys one by one. Pretty much the "war" part of the book is over, now that there are too few kings vying for the crown.
fil
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
quote:If not, would only Howland Reed (great name for Blues singer, I would think) be the only one alive who knows of it?
If Jon is, indeed, the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which I think he is), then I think Wylla (Jon's wet nurse and presumably Lyanna's midwife) would know the truth, as I assume she would've been present at the Tower of Joy during the birth.
I recently heard a theory that Barristan Selmy might know the truth, and I like that idea, too.
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
quote:Jon is, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which I think he is), then I think Wylla (Jon's wet nurse and presumably Lyanna's midwife) would know the truth, as I assume she would've been present at the Tower of Joy during the birth.
We know that Rhaegar raped Lyanna so, at the very least, Jon could be the progeny. I think that he is of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that Lyanna made Ned promise to love him as his own to protect Jon.
I believe that Ned had sex with someone while he was away from Cat, but I never get the feeling that his love for Robert was ever mixed with jealousy over Lyanna. And he didn't seem to feel at odds with his Gods, which I'd think would have happened if he were battling with the guilt of incest.
I think that Cat's unreasonable hatred of Jon is one clue we get that she'll fall/fail. It proves that she is shallow and puts her own pride above the needs of the family. It is a flaw that Sansa shares.
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
Another thought: Though they tell us that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, It seems out of character with everything else I recall about Rhaegar. At one point, when Dany is trying to keep a woman from being raped, Jorah mentions that she is just like Rhaegar.
Also, I don't think that Ned would have had as much sympathy for the Children of House Targaryen if he didn't have a personal stake in believing that they weren't all evil.
Here's my far flung theory: Rhaegar saw something in his scrolls that told him that he had to join the forces of fire and ice to defeat The Others and save humanity. Lyanna and Rhaegar made love, rather than rape.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think they were pretty clear that she had been raped. Remember that all The Taryganens(sp) were touched by madness.
As far as I remember (and I just reread them last week ) Lysa killed her husband, with Littlefingers help. Cersi killed Robert by having Lancel poison his wine before the boar hunt. Or at least she was worried that Lancel would squeal, even though she was sleeping with him. She thought it would be best if Lancel died of his wounds, that much I remember for sure, because she was afraid that he would talk.
quote: I think the chapter where the Reed kids tell Bran the story about the Mystery Knight and so on tells the story pretty clearly
I have a theory about that story, too. The Mystery Knight wasn't Howlad Reed, it was Eddard Stark. Reed wanted to fight, according to the story, but he knew he didn't joust well, and it wasn't his kind of fight. But Reed was a Stark bannerman, and the Starks were dismayed at how he had been treated. So Eddard, who at the time was a youth....small in stature, like Reed, but with the means and training to fight on their own ground....went into the tourney to defend Reed's honor, and the honor of the Starks.
This explains why Jojen was surprised that Eddard had never told his children that story, and explains why the mystery knight was never found. Eddard might have done this, and left it open to interpretation on purpose.
It explains why he hates tourneys so much, because of what happened to Lyenna there, and why he would have agreed to hide the child of the rape....because he felt responsible. He had left the tourney, and Rhagar had won it, and all that followed was in part (at least in his own mind) his fault for not staying and winning the whole shebang.
It also explains why he would be willing to compromise his own honor by claiming the bastard (Jon) was his own....because he really felt responsible for what had happened.
The rules of this discussion were that we weren't to discuss anything that hasn't been published yet,because someone here had read some of GRRM's drafts (or something like that).
The chapter that appeared in the back of book 3 is fair game, as far as i can tell. It has been published, and every copy of ASOS that was sold in the US (overseas too, I think) has it in the back....so it is fair game.
Several of us have already mentioned it, I believe, so Elizabeth shouldn't have to delete her post about it...even though it appears to me that she has already done so.
Too bad, I would have liked to hear what she said about it....
Kwea
[ July 27, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
quote:I think they were pretty clear that she had been raped. Remember that all The Taryganens(sp) were touched by madness.
Of course they're (they, being Brandon, Rickard, and Robert) going to think she was raped. I doubt Robert's ego could've let him believe any differently. But Lyanna crying over Rhaegar's sad song (I wonder which one it was) at the feast and Rhaegar crowning her queen of beauty at the tourney make for more of a love story than a rape story.
quote:Cersi killed Robert by having Lancel poison his wine before the boar hunt.
She didn't poison it, just made sure Lancel had Robert's favorite and lots of it.
quote:I have a theory about that story, too. The Mystery Knight wasn't Howlad Reed, it was Eddard Stark.
Ned wasn't small of stature at all. He was 18, no? And only a year or two away from killing Arthur Dayne. I think he was already grown. It seemed obvious to me that it was Lyanna Stark.
The mystery knight then disappeared from the tournament, and Rhaegar was sent by Aerys to find "him" ("he's no friend of mine."). I think he did, to the delight of both parties.
quote:It also explains why he would be willing to compromise his own honor by claiming the bastard (Jon) was his own....because he really felt responsible for what had happened.
I think he compromises it for the dying wish of his sister and his desire not to see Jon killed by a raging Robert. We all got to see how Robert treated the remaining Targaryen seed (Rhaenys and Aegon), and both Ned and Lyanna would rather Jon wasn't murdered.
The big question on my mind is whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Polygamy and incest weren't shunned by Targaryens at all, but I'm not sure if that would've concerned Rhaegar at all if his goal was merely to father the child whose song is that of Ice and Fire.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:But Lyanna crying over Rhaegar's sad song (I wonder which one it was) at the feast
"The Bear And The Maiden Fair."
On everything else, of course, you're 100% right on. Broken clocks...
By the way, what's Dany's parentage? For some reason I have a persistent belief she's not full-blooded Targ, but damn if I can remember who her parents were.
And send me that story, geek.
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
quote:"The Bear And The Maiden Fair."
Wait, you're kidding...right?
I thought I had sent you the story already. I'll send it in a few.
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
Jaime has just had his hand lopped-off, and we're learning more and more about why he was named the "King Slayer". He is still boastful and arrogant, heedless and agressive, yet we can see his humanity because we get to hear his inner voice that tells us why he acts as he does.
No matter what the final action, we afford the character pity and empathy if he can justify his actions to himself.
Is this always so? Is it good to empathize with a child abuser and one so driven by his blood-lust that all else is expendible?
For me, the beauty of this series is that each main character gets to write their own perspective. Each decides whether he/she is to be the "Monster or the Maiden".
Tyrian is almost a twin to his brother in many respects, but he is, so far, driven by motives greater than his own personal profit. I get the feeling that if Tyrian finds love for himself in the promise that Tysha truly loved him, then he will be a hero. If he learns true self loathing, he'll become the villain.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I think Tyrion will become more villainous, and Jaime will find some sort of redemption. The scene where jaime tells him the truth about his first wife, I think, was a crucial turning point for both characters.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I agree that it was very important, but I hesitate to make any sort of perdiction about the futures of this series. It changes too much book to book, which is one of the things that i like about it.
I don't think Lyannna was then Mystery Knight, we have heard nothing about her being a warrior before this, and that sort of detail wouldn't have been overlooked by Robert, who loved war better than peace.
I also think that Eddard wouldn't lie about if his sister had been raped, and he would never risked the well being of the realm unless he was sure.
Eddard was about 16 when the great tourney was held, and he might have been able to pass as the Mystery Knight....but it could have been someone we haven't even met yet. That is why I am really looking forward to "meeting" Howland Reed in future books...if they ever get written, that is....
I just thought it was a good theory, as it gave a good reason Eddard hated tourneys so much later in life. Also, even if it turns out to have been someone else, it is still the sort of think he would do for one of his bannermen if he felt they had been misused.
I have a question.....when Arya got lost in the castle after running away from Tomman (and knocking him down) she overheard a conversation between two men who were discussing the war, and what to do about Eddard Stark. Do we know who they were? I think it was fairly clear that one was Varys by his bulk, but they refer to the other one as a sorcerer of some sort....
Kwea
[ August 10, 2004, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The other one was...damn, the name is slipping my mind. In any case, he's the merchant who harbored Dany and her brother, and set up the sale of Dany to Drogo.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Ilyiro, maybe? Damn, I just reread the three books a few months ago. I should know this.
Posted by St. Yogi (Member # 5974) on :
Ok, there are three heads of the dragon. Dany is one and Jon is another. Does this mean that there's a third Targaryen running around? If so, who?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've read people speculating that it's Tyrion, but for me it's *way* too early to call that one.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Theory on Azhor Azhai: Jon Snow, he will wake the dragons of dragonstone or find an egg in the north
Theory on Jon Snows Marital Status: he and Daenery's
Theory on destruction of Others and Undead: Dragon fire wipes out the undead, Valyrian steel as well as dragonglass can kill others. they are always sayiing everytime they talk about it that its magic, spell forged, etc.
Theory on Dance of Dragons: This takes place after Jon and Daenerys Wed, both Jon and Daenery's will die in the war.
Theory on Coldhands: Catelyn Stark
Theory on Mormont: He will kill Bran, at the beginning of the Dance of Dragons, to take away jons Right Hand man
Theory on Horn of Winter: It is a strong possibility that Benjen Starks horn is the horn of winter, but if not, Bran finds it.
Theory on Tywin: Becomes a hero in the end
Theory on Littlefinger: Joins with the Grevjoys, is betrayed, killed by Theons sister
Theory on Stallion that Will Mount the World: The Child of Daenerys and Jon, after Dance, Mounts the world.
[ August 10, 2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Rhaegar The Fool ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think you're wrong about all but the first three. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
The Horn of Winter was already found, by Jon -- I think Sam's toting it around nowadays, but it's been a while since I read the books. Stupid Martin and stupid delays and he'd better live long enough to finish the series or he'll have me to answer to...
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
And, er, Tywin's dead. If you mean Tyrion, he's always been a hero to me. That's, sigh, true love...
Littlefinger's not going anywhere. He's the only one with any real power -- he's the only one who Varys doesn't understand or manipulate. He had Arryn killed, he's Lord of the Eyrie and Harrenhal, key in securing the South's security, I don't think he'll be killed by anyone -- except, probably inevitably, by Sansa.
How could Coldhands be Catelyn? Eddie suggested it's Benjen Stark, a theory I'm digging.
Mormont will kill Bran to cripple Jon? Nobody knows Bran's at the Wall except a very select few, the Old Bear's dead, and Jonah Mormont has no idea who Jon is or any reason to want him or his brother dead. How'd you come to this conclusion?
Azhor Azhai, however it's spelled, is Daenarys. I don't see how it can be anyone else -- the prophecy fits her perfectly, from what little I can remember.
I'm not sure if Valyrian steel can kill Others -- it may be spell-forged, but I don't remember anything that suggests the swords themselves are magical. Ice was melted down and reforged -- does that mean it's lost its newfound ability to kill Others?
I don't see Jon and Dany dying, but I guess anything's possible.
Does anyone remember Daenerys' parentage? Her mother died giving birth, and her father was the Mad King, but damn if I can remember who her mother was. Was she a Targ? I know the House had started importing wives, what with Rhaegar and Elia of Dorne, but...
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I think that Valyrian steel could very well kill Others. Apparently, obsidian blades can do it because the rock is created from lava, over a long period of time, under incredible heat and pressure. Though it might be cold, it embodies fire.
A blade made of steel that has been folded into itself again and again in the hottest forges in the world, using a lost form of magic to bind them and make them stronger ... yeah, under the same reasoning, such a blade could embody fire just as well as obsidian.
Dany HAS to be Azhor Ahai (or whatever). The forging of her weapon lines up, the red comet appeared at the time of her rise to power, and I'm sorry, I don't see Jon Snow doing anything as impressive as waking three dragons on a loved one's funeral pyre.
I have no idea who Coldhands is. I wouldn't be too surprised if it's Benjen Stark, but at the same time, I'd be even less surprised if it's someone else Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Dany HAS to be Azhor Ahai (or whatever). The forging of her weapon lines up
What weapon is that? The Dragons? Or did i miss something?
I think Valarian steel will be effective against at least some of the cold walkers, and even when reforged it kept it's properties. remember how there was only one smith who remembered all the rituals and chants to reforge it, and he is the one who took Ice and turned it into two swords.
If Coldhands was Benjen Stark (which would be cool) wouldn't Bran have reconized him?
quote: Nobody knows Bran's at the Wall except a very select few
Bran isn't at the Wall, he passed through it on his way to the Northlands beyond the wall.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
That's what I meant.
If they had me during the Cold War, the Soviets would never have cracked our codes and won the war!
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
When Sam makes mention that though the dragon blades may kill the Others, but it doesn't mean that they'll kill the wights, it made me wonder about Gilly's son.
We know that the wights are the dead come back as zombies, but how do the Others multiply. So far, we've only seen male Others.
Is it possible that the majority of the Others are Craster's sons?
I wonder if victory against the Others is somehow linked not only to fire and The Lord of Light, but Craster's spared son who is kin to the Others?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
There were always tales of babynapping where the Others were concerned; I believe that Nan threatened Bran with that in her tales. I believe that the others MAY have something to do with that, and perhaps all the children of the crows from the whores in the town below. There is probably more than one reason the crows are suppose to be celibate....
I think the conflict will be too soon for Crastor son to have a big part in it....other than the huge part he had in making Sam Tarley DO something other than hide in fear. Without him, Sam wouldn't have been there to open the Black gate (one very cool part of the series!) for Bran to get through, and that may well be the difference between winning and losing the coming war.
Having Bran trained by Coldhands and friends is key.....
Kwea
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
kwea?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Goodnight fallow!
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
eh?!
but you didn't answer my question?
fallow
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
quote:What weapon is that? The Dragons? Or did i miss something?
I've heard the idea thrown about (possibly in this thread) that the legend of the forging of Lightbringer parallels Dany's hatching of the dragons — ie, she attempts to hatch them at first through more conventional means, but fails until she sacrifices her spouse in the process.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Fallow: You never asked it....not that I saw, anyway...
ADNR: That is what I was getting at, although I thought it was an original though...one of the few I may ahve had....thanks for ruining it for me....
Kwea
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Im sorry but Jon has to be Azhor Azhai. He is the prince who was denied his kingdom, he weilds the blade of fire, if my theory on Valyrian steel is correct, it all fits.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well Rhaegar, we'll soon* find out.
*in a geological time frame, anyway.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
True, we might just all be niety six when we do, if we can still read.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's if we're lucky. If we're unlucky, he'll have a heart attack sometime soon, and Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson will somehow aquire the rights to the books. They'll write a bunch of crappy books about the meeting of the first men and the Andals, and then eventually get around to butchering the end of Martin's series.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
quote: Azhor Azhai, however it's spelled, is Daenarys. I don't see how it can be anyone else -- the prophecy fits her perfectly, from what little I can remember.
quote: Im sorry but Jon has to be Azhor Azhai. He is the prince who was denied his kingdom, he weilds the blade of fire, if my theory on Valyrian steel is correct, it all fits.
I just re-read the series recently, and I was fairly convinced that it was Beric Dondarrion.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
quote: That's if we're lucky. If we're unlucky, he'll have a heart attack sometime soon, and Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson will somehow aquire the rights to the books. They'll write a bunch of crappy books about the meeting of the first men and the Andals, and then eventually get around to butchering the end of Martin's series.
How does Kevin Anderson get his meat hooks into these lucrative series? (Dune, Star Wars). My twelve year old sister writes better books than he does.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I know that OSC thinks highly of Anderson. Maybe he'll franchise out the Enderverse to him. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Rhaegar The Fool Member Member # 5811
posted August 12, 2004 12:29 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Im sorry but Jon has to be Azhor Azhai. He is the prince who was denied his kingdom, he wields the blade of fire, if my theory on Valyrian steel is correct, it all fits. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Rhagear, you should write Martin and tell him...that way he will "get it right" too....
Valerian steel doesn't shed heat, while dragon fire is nothing but.....
Or did you miss what Magister Aemon had to say about Stannis Barethon's sword?
.. . . . . I think Berric isn't him, because he currently doesn't fit into the rest of the criteria without some "creative wording"....but that is what prophesies do, so I might be wrong.
I do think Thoros is coming back into his own, and will have a very important role to play in future books, doing what Messlindre is doing for Stannis but in a proper fashion....perhaps anointing the true Azor Azhi reborn later in the series, if that isn't just a HUGE smokescreen Martin is using to misdirect us yet again...
[ August 12, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Does anyone think we might get to see Asshai? The Bloodmages, and spellcasters? Casue that would rock out.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I am pretty sure he isn't pulling a RJ on us...you know, bite off more than you can chew and then blame it on the readers...
So I hope we will have something from them in this series...or he could pull a Robin Hobb and simply write another series on them in the future...
Wait....I don't think I will live long enough to read that one...I'm already 34... Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Probably wont even make it to book four then Kwea, sorry.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*bump*
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
as clouseau would say, "Bimp"
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
OMG! this totally rocks! watch.
*BUMP*
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Take this
*Bimp*
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Theory on Hodor aka Walder Ok, seeing as all he ever says is Hodor, and no one knows why, and he was born on the first day of a winter, I think he is the key to something in the far north, possibly "Hodor" is some kindof password or phrase to get somewhere, or something, i dunno,IO just thought of it like half an hour ago.
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
Could hodor have some connection with Tyrion?
/sloppy pun
[ August 13, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: jacama ]
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
How so?
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Bumping
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Why?
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
Hello, I just joined, but I'm a huge fan of SOIAF. Glad to see so many like minders.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:I don't think Lyannna was then Mystery Knight, we have heard nothing about her being a warrior before this, and that sort of detail wouldn't have been overlooked by Robert, who loved war better than peace.
I also think that Eddard wouldn't lie about if his sister had been raped, and he would never risked the well being of the realm unless he was sure.
A: We've heard plenty of her being a warrior. Ned mentioned that she would've carried a sword if his father had let her...someone mentions that Arya rides like her aunt (when she nearly escapes), and Lyanna beat the crap out of three squires with a practice sword. During Jojen's story, Benjen actually offers to find Lyanna some armor (though GRRM made it look like Benjen was talking to Howland).
B: Ned never lies about the rape, just doesn't disagree when Robert refers to it. Is there any good way or reason for Ned to tell Robert that the woman he loved went willingly to Rhaegar? We know Lyanna at least told Ned that she wasn't in love with Robert, and that she knew Robert would never change his ways. But Ned didn't tell Robert that part, either.
C: Ned didn't risk the well being of the kingdom at all. He joined the war later, after his brother and father had been murdered. But I think at the time, Brandon and Rickard probably did think she had been kidnapped (not raped yet). Only at the ToJ did Ned find out for sure, I think.
I maintain that Lyanna went willingly to Rhaegar after he found her fleeing the tourney where she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That was my take on it as well Frisco.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Well, I will look up all the references to it i can find.
Not that I don't believe you, but I like to do that anyway...
I was just posing a theory, and I might be wrong..
But I think something isn't quite right with this theory either. If I re-read it again (for the fourteenth time... ) with this in mind, maybe I will be able to figure out what it is that seems out of place with it to me.
Kwea
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I think Jaime and Brienne will be lovers.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Either that, or Jamie will allow himself to be exiled to the wall when Danyrs acends to the throne, for the crime of kingslaying.
Kwea
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Or, more brutally Martin, he will fall in love with Brienne, and she will be burned while he is tied up and forced to watch, and THEN he will go to the wall.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I have this feeling Jaime will kill Cersei.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
One could only hope...
Kwea
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
I'm not sure about Jaime killing his sister except in defense of Tyrion or the rightful heir to the throne.
I think that he only defended Brienne out of a grudging respect for her prowess and her oath to protect him. He knows that Cersei and his father will leave him to his fate. Brienne has, in effect, become his good right hand. I look at this as further proof of his extreme self-love and I have a hard time liking him for loving himself.
In my eyes, he is somewhat redeemed by his love of Tyrion; yet this love doesn't prevent him from lying to Tyrion.
Jaime has done some character growth. I agree that he is beginning to admit to himself that he slayed the king only when his father's life was in immediate danger and that his act was not noble and this means that he knows that he must pay for the death of Rhaegar's wife and children.
I don't see Jaime going to the Wall. I see his life ending in a blaze of glory, fighting beside Brienne for Dany.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I completely disagree. I think that he was torn between duty and sanity, and that he never made excuses for himself because he knew one way or another he was dammed.
What was he suppose to do, let Arys blow up the city?
Not that I am sympathetic to most of his actions...his lies to Tyrion are not even close to being the worse of them.
But he has begun to see nobility in Brieanne despite how he originally viewed her, and was painfully honest writing his own account in the log book of the Whitecloaks. I think he has deveolped, but not for the same reasons you do.
I think he will fall in love...no, I think he has already begun falling in love with her, and will come to love her, and that she will be the redemption of him....if she lives that long.
I don't think that Tyrion and Jamie will ever forgive each other...for the lies and the actions to one another cut to their core. I hope I am wrong, but it seems to be foreshadowed at the very end of SoS.
Kwea
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I just finished! I can't believe that Martin escaped my radar for so long; he's a fantastic writer. I love the continual character development. Everytime I thought I had someone pegged (like Jamie) Martin shows another side of them.
space opera
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I haven't found any of his other novels to be up to the quality of ASOIAF, although they've all been quite good. Fevre Dream is definitely worth reading. The Wildcard Mosaic novels are pretty spotty, as you'd expect with that many different writers collaborating (each author is responsible for their own character or characters, and write chapters revolving around that character. Martin, when he's not writing chapters of his own, knits them together into a coherent whole), but fun. I haven't read Armegaddon Rag, but I've been eyeing it at a used bookstore for a month or so now. Tuf Voyaging, which is a collection of short stories involving the exploits of a character named Havland Tuf (I probably have that first name misspelled) has been the only major disappointment, and even that is an interesting disappointment.
His short stories are generally phenomenal. In fact, if it weren't for ASOIAF, I'd say that his best work was in short form. Pick up a copy of one of his collections and you won't be sorry. Even the really early stuff collected in George R. R. Martin: A Retrospective is pretty entertaining.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Who's read the graphic novel version of "The Hedge Knight"?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
See, I think killing Cersei will be part of his redemption. I think he deeply hates her for her manipulation of him, and the fact that she never returned the love and loyalty that he had for her. I think he realizes what an evil person she is, and recognizes that she has ruled his life, and that he doesn't like where his life has taken him. Refusing to be her Hand is part of the proces that I think will eventually lead to him killing her. Not necessarily in defense of someone else (though that will likely be the catalyst) but for himself.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I read the first issue of it, but given that it was pretty much completely faithful to the original, and only covered about the first 5 pages of the novella, I thought that I'd just save myself a bunch of money and reread one of the copies of the story that I've already got in various books at home. When the whole thing is done and it's been published as a graphic novel, though, I might get it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The whole thing IS done and published as a graphic novel. I bought it as individual issues, but it's already on the stands as a trade paperback.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh yeah? I'd have thought it would take longer than that. Thanks Tom!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Belle, I agree that Jaime will have a more permanent falling out with Cersei, but I think it is Dead Kat who will kill her.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I love these books and only recently finished. I'm notoriously bad at predicting future events after only one read because I miss alot in my mad dash to find out "what happens next" but I agree with the ideas of Jamie and Brieanne having a more intimate relationship. I really hated the idea of my liking Jamie the more I read him but it's imposible not to. He has grown and seen a lot of the errors of his behavior and I agree that he will see his sister as the root to many of his previous shortcomings. SHe has controlled him as much as she has anyone else and I doubt she really loves anyone other than herslef. He's beginning to see this and I love that he is putting himself in the honorable role of Captain of the royal guard first and son of the Lannister's second. I have no real predications other than I see Cersei going down in a big way and Jamie having something to do with it, either he does it himself or steps aside and does nothing to stop it. I also see a furthering of the relationship between Brieanne and Jamie. I just can't wait for AFFC to come out and see where these intensly awesome characters all go and what they do to eachother.
[ August 23, 2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: beatnix19 ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Beatnix,
I usually don't like to predict, but with GRRM, I do, because he can still pull a surprise move. on another thread, I discussed my horror and agony that Ned ACTUALLY had his head chopped off. I thought, no way, he will be saved any second now, he is a very important (and sexy as all get-out)character. I am still a bit miffed at George for that.
Edit: Also, I hardly ever re=read a book, but I have been reaidng Book one over again. It is amazing to read again, because you can see all the little hints of things to come. I wonder if he has/had the plot planned, or if it comes to him as he writes.
[ August 23, 2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Oh, I forgot to mention this.
In re-reading the first book, I noticed that Tyrion, when he first meets Jon, does this amazing flip off a wall. It makes him seem very agile, yet in the following story, he is written as stiff and a bit clumsy.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Elizabeth - yea, I was totally floored when Ned actually died. But I guess that was just the beginning for Martin and I have since gotten used to the idea of some of my favorite Characters getting bumped off. I was ticked about ned but nearly flipped out when Rob got it at the Twins. I wasn't nearly as upset about Kat... I'm actually more ticked that she had the 'ol fire breahted back into her, but there are definately some cool revenge threads availale with her back in the picture. And I just have to say that by not re-reading books you are definately doing yourself a diservice. If a book was good once it's usually better the second time, IMHO.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Beatnix, I just love the thrill of the first read too much. I like it to stay in my memory that way.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
me too. But I always miss so much and I love going back and filling in all the gaps. It's like the Usual Suspects. The first time I watched that it was so awesome and you can never get back the moment you realize who Kisar Sosei is but the second time through was just as awesome but just in diferent ways.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I am finding that I can't really get into any other book anyway, right now, so I just started to read this again. It really is just as good the second time.
I gave my friends the books to read, and she was so upset it was over that she kept trying to order the fourth book on Amazon, even though she knew it wasnt finished. Sort of like the three year-old's magical thinking.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote: I doubt she really loves anyone other than herslef
I would argue that Circei honestly does love her children. I think that they're the only people other than herself that she does love completely (and even then, she isn't above using them to further her own ends. She just sees her ends and theirs as coinciding). Do you think that she's completely without love for Jamie, throughout the series so far? I think that that love is over, but I suspect that it was once there. I don't think that he's always been her pawn.
Beatnix, why did it anger you when Kat was resurrected? It filled me with a cold dread, but one that I kind of enjoyed experiencing. I can't wait to see what he does with Kat in the coming book(s).
I have to say, one of the few plotlines that I find relatively dull is the one involving Davos. I expect that we're going to be seeing a lot more of him, Stannis, and Milisandre (sp?) in AFFC, but I'm not particularly looking forward to it. The characters I'm most interested in following are Arya, Bran, Jon, Sam, and Dany. I'm looking forward to the rest, but those are the ones that hold me on the edge of my chair in every chapter that is devoted to them (Dany the least of these, but she still counts).
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I kind of see her love for Jmaie as an extension of her love of herself. I mean , he looks just like her. But I mean the whole relationship is pretty wacked out so.. Who's to say.
As far as Kat... I don't know... She just really started to drive me nuts with her whining and selfpity. I guess I meant to say that I wasn't all that upset to see her go, not like I was when Rob got run threw. But I totally agree that there are some really nasty posibilities in the future for her.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Noemon, I am pretty sure Davos was sacrificed by Stannis. "Pure heart, loyal soul," and all that.
Cersei's love for anyone reminds me of a line from the Albert Brooks movie, "Mother."
Albert's mother, casually: "I love you, dear."
Albert: "I know you think you do."
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Hmmm. I wonder if he meant for us to start disliking Kat. I definitely disliked her more and more as the books went on. She reminds me of one of those people who act as if their children are the only children on earth. I remember going over to kids' houses when I was little, and feeling so uncomfortable with parents like that. Mine always bent over backwards to make other children feel welcome.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
OK, like I said I read them quick and only once, why do you think Davos was sacrificed? and When was that?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Well, golly, book 3, I think. Davos comes back, finds out they are going to sacrifice the boy. He rescues the boy. Stannis and Melisandre find out and call him "into the office." They are not angry with him at all.
Later, when Stannis saves the Wall, Davos is not with him. They keep mentioning the sacrifice as needing someone pure of heart. Davos does follow Stannis almost without question, so grateful for him making him a knight. We never see Davos after this. (Right? Unless I missed something)
So, I inferred that he was the sacrifice.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Ok, I see where you're coming from with that idea. Hmm... just another little bit I seemed to have missed. I realy need to start reading them again. Unfortunately I start school tomorrow and have been stupid busy getting my classroom ready to go and haven't had time.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
*SPOILER, MAYBE?*
Davos is alive. He's in AFFC, though I don't remember ever thinking that there was even a remote chance that he was dead.
[ August 23, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
wait... a spoiler on the spoiler thread? No way!!!
He very well could be or not, it is Martin we're talking about, but I lean to thinking he's probably alive as well. But Stannis is definately blinded enough by Melisandre to wack his most loyal and truthful knight. Man I love how Martin gives nothing away and has all of freaks guessing like mad.
Editted after reading your edit
(you know he's in AFFC because of excerpts or just because? I have'nt read anything from AFFC so I wouldn't know.)
[ August 23, 2004, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: beatnix19 ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
The Dragons of Daragonstone were never woken...the summons to the wall came and interuppted them discussing what to do with Davos.
Stannis WAS very pissed, but when Davos told him what he had done, and his unselfish reasons for doing so, Stannis realizes that Davos may have saved him despite his own willingness to sacrifice Edric Storm.
If the dragon hasn't been woken yet, then no sacrifice has been made....and it would take the "blood of the King" to wake it, IIRC, which is why Storm was the only choice Misslendre aws willing to acccept.
Kwea
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I'm still unsure whether or not I believe anything would have happened had they sacrificed Storm. It seems obvious to me that the comet was a sign for Daenerys and there for Stannis won't be able to call forth anything because he's not the prophesised person. (excuse my spelling... I suck)
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I began disliking Cat the moment the she told Jon it should have been him that fell.
I admire Cat - I admired her love and devotion to Ned and her children, I admired her intelligence - obviously she knew that Rob's marriage was a bad idea, and she knew him sending Grey Wind away was a bad idea.
But despite the pain she felt when Ned betrayed her (if he did - I am in the camp that believes Jon is Lyanna's son), for her to harbor hatred for the boy, who did nothing to deserve that hatred, is inexcusable to me. Not only that, I could understand her having resentment for Jon in her heart, but to say that to him - indefensible in my book.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"I began disliking Cat the moment the she told Jon it should have been him that fell."
I feel the same way.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Belle, I could have written that exact post. I wouldn't have needed to have changed a word--that sums up *exactly* how I feel, on all points.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Do you think she was really pained when Ned (supposedly) betrayed her? I just think she was pissed as all get out. Ned wasn't who she was set to marry, and she didn't really get a chance to know him at all before he left to fight again after their wedding. Though she obviously came to love Ned, I think she just resented what other people thought about him fathering a bastard.
space opera
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I don't quite think that that was it. Kat wasn't the greatest person in Westros, but she wasn't that shallow either. I think that what bothered her about the whole thing was the affection that Ned continued to show toward Jon, which in turn, to her, signified a level of caring about Jon's mother. If Jon had just been Ned's bastard-get from some whore that he cared nothing for (the woman, that is), I don't think Kat would have minded particularly. As she came more to care about Ned, though, this (to her) obvious sign of dedication to another woman became more and more painful. That was my take on it, anyway.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
True, Noemon, and no doubt compounded by the fact that Ned would never reveal the woman's name.
space opera
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I've got to say it. The sum of the negative things being said about Kat in this thread is weirding me out. Doesn't the Stark kids' mother's name start with a "C"?
[ August 24, 2004, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
LOL. Kat, I've been thinking the same thing. It is spelled with a "C." I also think her father refers to her as his "little Cat."
space opera
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Catelyn. Called "Cat."
Meow.
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
quote: Do you think she was really pained when Ned (supposedly) betrayed her? I just think she was pissed as all get out. Ned wasn't who she was set to marry, and she didn't really get a chance to know him at all before he left to fight again after their wedding. Though she obviously came to love Ned, I think she just resented what other people thought about him fathering a bastard.
space opera
Personally I don't think she was all that pissed, or upset, I think she was insulted. Cat is a proud person, and thats why she does like Jon.
A Shes too dumb to realize his awesomness (best character in book in my opinion)
B She sees him as a perosnal insult.
My personal biggest grudges against GRRM are in order form biggest to smallest
1. Sansa 2. The Death of Robb 3. Not Enough Beric Dondarrion, Lighting Lord
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think she cared for him, very deeply...which is why she hated Jon so much.
Ned wouldn't tell her anything about his birth or his mother, just that he was his bastard.
People treat kids worse than that every day IRL, for a lot less reason.
Kwea
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
Well at least she can't say anything nasty to him again. Oh, theory. If the Others lead armies of the dead, and the red priests are rasing people from the dead, can the red priests cause the undead armies of the others to return to life if they are gathered in sufficient numbers (of red priests)? Anyone think thats possible?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's an interesting theory Drogo. I kind of doubt it, but it's an interesting theory nonetheless.
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
Be kindof fun to see all the undea suddenly go, what the hell is going on, why am I here fighting for the enemies of mankind? And the run off to hide insome cave and be re-slaughtered by Others.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Actually, I think they do call her "Kat." Off to check.
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
Its Cat, I'm re-reading GOT for the tenth time right now.
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
Wow, I can't believe I never figured out why Petyr was called Littlefinger before, I feel so friggin dumb.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
KG: Yup, you are right. I was confusing my Internet world with my fantasy world for a mnute there.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Drago, I don't think so...look how hard it is for thoros of Myr to keep just one man alive.
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
But the comet is just in it's early stages, and Thoros isn;t the powerful, he's no where near Mellisandres league. And their power grows with the comet, and I said in sufficient number, we dont know how many of the their are in the east/
Posted by jacama (Member # 6291) on :
quote:but I think it is Dead Kat who will kill her.
Cat is sympathetic to Cersei. She recognizes the same blind, mother's love and even asks herself, if she was in the same position, if she wouldn't have killed Robert to protect her children. I think that Cat's hate is centered on the Frey's and that is where she will take her revenge.
Regarding "the sacrifice", I assumed that it was Robert's bastard son.
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
I think its pretty clear that Storm isn't sarfificed, if he was Stannis would have either assaulted Kings Landing again, or when he cam to the wall, it would have been with a hellof a lot more troops and flying thingies.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
What sacrifice?
Re-read it, or at least reread this thread.
Davos sent his son away so the sacrifice never happened.
Unless you meant Gendry, who (last I read) was still alive as well.
I don't think ANY of us shoudl "assume" anything at this point.....
Also, who said there power asends with the comet? I remember the conflict growing with it towards the penuntimate conflict, and winter is coming.... Kwea
[ August 31, 2004, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
Thoros and Mellisandre both did. Remember Thoros talking with Arya saying his primary role was to get drunk when he was in King's Landing. He then tells her of the surge of power he felt when the comet came, and how suddenly he was able to perfomr miraculous things, aka raising the dead, which he had only thought were mythis before.
And I was talking about the bastard who lived in Storms End being sacrificed.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Just spent five straight days drinking in hotel rooms with George at WorldCon, and he didn't let a damn thing slip.
It was sorta funny, though. Every panel George was on, someone would try and get him to tell them who Jon Snow's parents were. During a panel called "Beyond Sex", about how to use erotica in SpecFic, a question was aimed at George: "In order to be born, two people must have sex. Could you tell us which two copulated to create Jon Snow?"
A more creative question was proposed in a panel on Gods--"We know the Old Gods have a hand in Jon Snow's fate, because he has Stark blood, in the form of Ghost, but do the Valyria Gods play a role, since his father was a Targaryen?"
Neither were answered. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Wow. Eddie, I'm not sure I've ever resented you more in my life.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
What he said.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Well, I remeber something about power on the rise too, but wasn't sure.
I severely doubt we will see the priests raise an army....
And the boys name was Edric Storm, and Davos savesdd him from Stannis and lamost lost his life for doing so.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Did he happen to mention how the book was coming, Frisco?
How did you end up drinking with Martin for five days straight? Sounds like there's probably an interesting story there.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
That reminds me of a post I once read on a Polish forum. There was a convention in Poland, and OSC was the guest of honor. And this guy distinctly remembers drinking beer with him.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Maybe it was punwit. Or that guy who was going around the area where OSC lives pretending to be OSC in order to pick up women in bars.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
WEll, maybe it's working....he DID have dinner with ELJay, right?
Kwea
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
This is true! I'll tell you this--if nothing else, punwit has moxy, that's for sure.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
So, since I drank beer with punwit, can I go around telling people I drank with OSC?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So it would seem Kama, so it would seem. FauxSC, at the very least.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"So, since I drank beer with punwit, can I go around telling people I drank with OSC?"
Kama, I think it just means that you had a date with Eljay.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Frisco, have I ever called you a name-dropper? I don't recall ... I'm sure Lalo will remind me.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Now, about the pics of the date between you and ELJay, Kama.... Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I was once advised not to take pictures of the most intimate moments...
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Noe, I went to WorldCon and hung with the Brotherhood Without Banners, George's fan club. He drank with us every night. The man's a machine. Nearly 60, and he was up until 4, 5am, then getting up at 9 for panels.
He says he's pretty much done writing AFFC(he's got roughly the same number of manuscript pages as ASoS, even though he's trying to make it shorter for easier printing), but he can't find a good ending. He wants some sort of closure to the chapter. He said he's never been a fan of "To be continued..."
[ September 13, 2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm just trying to figure out when Frisco goes to work. As far as I can tell, he's spent the last three months visiting conventions. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
He has - he's on a walkabout.
Edit: Dagnabbit, why do I always leave out the verb?
[ September 09, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
He's Jesus. He doesn't work.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So you're saying that he's a broken savior?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Good information Frisco, thanks!
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
There's a different sample up at www.georgerrmartin.com -- it's one of the Iron Island chapters that was in Dragon magazine.
[ December 25, 2004, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: plaid ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Well, I read the books. I'm glad I went back and read them.
Besides the three books, I have read a short story called The Hedge Knight, and a chapter from AFoC on www.georgerrmartin.com from the POV of Aeron Greyjoy. What else is there to read? I tried http://p080.ezboard.com/basoiaf, but I just wee people talking about chapters they've read (or had read to them), but no actuall chapters seem to be posted there.
So, are there any more short stories, and where can I find them? Are there any more FoC chapters available, and where can I find them?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Man, I nearly had a heart attack when I saw this pop up again, as I thought a release date had been announced or something and I was horribly out of the loop.
Then I went to his website and saw a new update. He's still got more to go, but 1300 pages in the can is pretty darn impressive.
I think there are two Dunk and Egg stories out, one in each volume of Legends, IIRC, and The Hedge Knight has been made into a graphic novella-type-thing. It's well-done, at that.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Yes, Legends II is out, with a new Dunk and Egg story in it. I am buying it tomorrow.
Kwea
[ January 18, 2005, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I actually ordered Legends II the other day so that I can OSC's Alvin story. Yippie!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I thought that there was at least one other short story out there. Am I mistaken?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Man, I nearly had a heart attack when I saw this pop up again, as I thought a release date had been announced or something and I was horribly out of the loop.
Uh huh. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
The Hedge Knight, and the Dunk and Egg one are the only ones I know about....
But I just bought Legends II, so off to read I go!
Kwea
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
*bumped for spoilerish goodness*
By the way this:
quote: He says he's pretty much done writing AFFC(he's got roughly the same number of manuscript pages as ASoS, even though he's trying to make it shorter for easier printing), but he can't find a good ending. He wants some sort of closure to the chapter. He said he's never been a fan of "To be continued..."
Amused me. We are over 7 months later and still not done writing it. Oh well, maybe someday. Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Anyone else read the Hedge Knight graphic novel yet?
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
I read the first two issues of the serialized comic. I was waiting to get the graphic novel because I heard they were reissuing it with additional pages, but the reissue should be out now. I'm going to Borders today so I'll look for it there, because I really do want it. If they don't have it, I'll stop at the comic book store tomorrow. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah Geoff, about 5 times now. For me it was my first intro to The Hedge Knight. I loved it. My only complaint... Do I need a spoiler warning? Just in case: Spoilers for Graphic Novel following...
I didn't like the art for the end where Prince Baelor's skull fragment fell out. The text said he was missing half his skull, and in the panel it looked like about the size of a quarter.
Other than that though I thought it was great art, and the story was very well transferred. I'm not sure there was even any dialogue lost. I've liked Mike S Miller's work for a while, and he even got me to buy a bunch of issues of X-Man when he did an issue for that book. I went back and bought a bunch of back issues after that so I would know what was going on in the next ones, but alas, he only did one issue.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That reminds me--I got my brother a copy of The Hedge Knight graphic novel for his birthday a month ago. I'll have to see what he thought of it.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I got a copy of the second edition from the Dabel brothers at Boskone, and in addition to The Hedge Knight, there's an excerpt from The Sworn Sword--Battle on Redgrass Field. Is it in the first edition, too?
Also, the second edition has artwork from Amok from The Hedge Knight. Very cool stuff.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I love this thread! Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I was surprised when you linked Amok's site, Frisco. It hasn't been working for quite a few months now. And it's still not working for me.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Frisco linked to the Amok site exactly two years ago, Valentine014.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Yeah, I bumped this one because of the mention in the newer thread about these books.
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
Just noticed this thread (cause of the bump) wanted to throw my thoughts in.
1: Azor Ahai. Must be Daenerys. Among Melisandre's prophecies was something about reborn in storm, which is why she went to Dragonstone. Of course, Dany was born there, and she is called the Stormborn. She has already "waken dragons from stone", and is easily one of the most virtuous and admirable characters.
2: Coldhands. Ben Stark, maybe, more likely one of the Green men or some such.
3: Jon Stark. Not sure about the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ned Dayne seemed pretty sure that Wylla was Jon's mother, and Ned Stark always said so. He probably will end up marrying Dany.
4: Daenerys. Will win in the end. Along the way will be betrayed by one of the sellswords she keeps around (Daario Nahaaris?). Will marry both Jon Snow and Euron Crowseye, or possibly Victarion Greyjoy.
5: Arya Stark. Will learn a lot from the Faceless Men, but will NOT join their order. After a while she'll bug out and use their teachings for her own revenge. She still kept Needle without them knowing and still has her list of people who must die.
6: Sansa Stark. Will not die, will eventually inherit the North. Along the way will become downright devious due to Littlefinger's tutelage. She's already going in that direction, becoming more cynical and capable both to avoid Littlefinger's advances and Robert Arryn's... annoyances.
7: Davos Seaworth. Dead. Or will die soon. He's mentioned in AFFC briefly. It was said that he went to White Harbor as envoy to the Manderlys and Wyman Manderly hung him in return for a pardon from Cersei.
8: Cersei. Dead. Or will die soon. Her follies with the Faith and her council left her completely defenseless.
9: Jamie. Will briefly become Brienne's lover and then die heroically. Not sure how.
10: Brienne. Not dying at the end of AFFC. Spared due to whatever word it was that she screamed and the end. Briefly becomes Jamie's lover. Lives through the series.
11: Melisandre. Evil. Knows full well that Stannis isn't Azor Ahai and the sword she gave Stannis isn't Lightbringer, is trying to steer him and the rest of Westeros in the wrong direction. She said herself that the Other often bathes his servants in gaudy light.
12: Tyrion. Wow. Tough call. Probably becomes a villain and dies before the end. Not sure, though.
13: Bran Stark. Succeeds in becoming a skinchanger, is able to use Hodor as one of his "skins". Which kind of creeps me out. Marries Meera.
Wow, that's a long post.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Daenerys. Will win in the end. Along the way will be betrayed by one of the sellswords she keeps around (Daario Nahaaris?). Will marry both Jon Snow and Euron Crowseye, or possibly Victarion Greyjoy.
My gut feeling is that Daenerys will marry Euron and be betrayed by him. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:3: Jon Stark. Not sure about the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ned Dayne seemed pretty sure that Wylla was Jon's mother, and Ned Stark always said so. He probably will end up marrying Dany.
I'd be interested in how your opinion on this might be changed upon reading these links:
I have to admit, the Rhaegar-Lynana coupling and parentage of Jon Snow was not one I thought of on my own at all when I first read the stories. That Lynanna may have actually loved Rhaegar, but also loved (less) Robert, and didn't want Robert to think he had done all the slaughter and war over nothing, that's what I thought had happened regarding the "promise me, Ned".
But this take on Jon's parentage makes a lot of sense to me.
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: [QUOTE]I'd be interested in how your opinion on this might be changed upon reading these links:
I've read them. The first is useless. A series of statements taken out of context that could mean anything or nothing. The second is far more convincing. I am still uncertain. Even if Ned Stark intended to never admit the truth of Jon's parentage (possible) Wylla would not have made the same oath (would she?) so Ned Dayne would have no reason to think Wylla was Jon's mother. I admit, there's a lot of evidence for it, and it's probably what GRRM's going for. But I still don't get the Ned Dayne connection.
What I'd really like to see is a description of events leading to and following the Trident from Rhaegar's perspective. Or perhaps Oswell Whent or even Barristan Selmy. Since only Barristan is alive of those, perhaps we'll get his side of it.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
So going on the assumption that by now everyone has read AFFC, I have another theory to put forth.
I, and my girlfriend, who noticed most of the pertinent passages, am completely sure that Sandor Clegane is alive and relatively well.
Maybe this one was obvious to everyone but me, but I completely missed it till she pointed it out to me.
I'll let other people sound in before I go into more detail.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: I, and my girlfriend, who noticed most of the pertinent passages, am completely sure that Sandor Clegane is alive and relatively well.
Yeah, this one is widely held to be true by the fan base. There was an AFFC thread around somewhere (I believe I made that one as well) if you want to look for it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm pretty sure that he's alive, but how well he is remains to be seen. I don't think that the one wearing his old helm is actually Sandor Clegane, though.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
No, the one in the helm was Lemoncloak.
Sandor is the big, lame, silent gravedigger at the temple on the Quiet Isle, where Brienne and Podrick go. Lots of key dialogue all points to that. In addition to the basics (physical description of a huge man, face covered, with a busted leg), and the fact that Stranger is also at the temple, there is dialogue surrounding the Elder Brother of the temple.
1: "The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cute, and many a woman too."
And then...
2: "...The man you hunt is dead."
Skip the part where the Elder Brother claims to have buried Sandor.
3: "...I came upon him by the Trident, drawn by his cries of pain. He begged me for the gift of mercy, but I am sworn not to kill again. Instead, I bathed his fevered brow with river water, and gave him wine to drink and a poultice for his wound, but my efforts were too little and too late. The Hound died there, in my arms."
4: "Sandor Clegane is dead." (says Brienne) "He is at rest." The Elder Brother paused. "...Would it surprise you to learn that once I was a knight?" ...
And finally, the piece de resistance.
5: "When did it change?" asked Brienne. "When I died at the Battle of the Trident."
He goes into more detail about the battle, ending with how he suffered a mortal wound, fell into the river, and woke up on the Quiet Isle.
So we have a man who can heal nearly any wound, who talks about people "dying" in context of them being reborn. This man found Sandor and tells people The Hound is dead. We also have a man who meets Sandor's physical description at the same place, Quiet Isle.
It fits perfectly, once you know what to look for.
Xavier: Didn't realize there was already a thread. Sorry.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Dang. I suppose I need to reread these books.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: Xavier: Didn't realize there was already a thread. Sorry.
Oh, no problem. That wasn't my intent. Just in case you wanted to read the previously discussions on this very subject .
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Sandor is the big, lame, silent gravedigger at the temple on the Quiet Isle, where Brienne and Podrick go.
Yep, that was my take on it too.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
It's a Dany one I know has been posted before, but maybe it'll be new to someone else. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Bumping this gloriously wonderful thread to note that there's a NEW sample chapter (for Jon) over at GRRM's website: link! Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Thanks plaid!
I was a little leery when I first started the chapter--the writing in the dream sequence felt a little clumsy to me. He shook that off pretty quickly, though, and I loved the final paragraphs of the chapter.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think I'm going to resist. I've decided that part of my disappointment with AFFC was because I'd already read the most interesting chapters before the book was ever released.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I felt exactly the same way about the 4th book, and resolved to resist the urge to read the sample chapters, but that was back when I believed him that book 5 would be out within a year of book 4. Now I'm just wanting something from this world.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:but that was back when I believed him that book 5 would be out within a year of book 4.
While I was optimistically hopeful that this would be true, I never believed it for a second.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I was so naive!
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I'm still resolutely refusing to read book 4 until book 5 is released! (and hoping that no such nasty fate as GRRM likes to visit upon his characters will befall him . . .)
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
*growl*
I thought maybe the bump meant we had an announcement about the new book being finished.
*grumps off to read the new chapter*
Posted by Sean Monahan (Member # 9334) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: I have this feeling Jaime will kill Cersei.
This is an old post, and I don't know if it has been discussed any further in this thread, but I believe this too. The fortune-teller told Cersei she would be strangled by her "palanquin" (or something like that) which means "little brother". But I looked it up; Cersei and Jaime are twins, but Jaime is the younger of the two. So Jaime is her "little brother" too. Cersei is so convinced that it's going to be Tyrion; that makes me think she's got to be wrong.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Cersei is always wrong about everything.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Cersei was a much more interesting character before we got into her head. I think that she's unique in that (in this series)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Yeah, we didn't learn much about her we didn't already know. She is the only POV character who isn't more sympathetic now that we know her better.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'd assumed that she was more intelligent than she turned out to be.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Cersei was a much more interesting character before we got into her head.
Absolutely.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Cersei was a much more interesting character before we got into her head.
Absolutely.
Yep. And though I wish her chapters could've been narrated by someone else, I don't mind that she's not complicated, and that she is pretty much just an arrogant, evil jerk. Some people are just like that, and as much as I love GRRM's complex characters, it's also realistic to have characters that are pretty much irredeemable.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Just because something is realistic doesn't mean I want it taking up valuable page space in GRRM's series. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Oh, agreed. I would've rather that Cersei's chapters were narrated by someone else. Or probably a bunch of someones, like how he did the Iron Island ones and the Sunspear ones, which were some of my faves.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Ugh, why were random parts of that chapter underlined? It was really distracting.
Not that I didn't devour it or anything. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
They're Jon's thoughts; in the print version they'd be italicized.
[Edit--actually, most of them are Jon's thoughts. The Old Bear's crow's voice and a few other things are apparently intended to be italicized too]
[ January 04, 2008, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
It was amazing to me how I went from hating Jaime to loving him, just from having his POV. It was just as much fun, however, to continue hating Cersei when I got her POV. (I did enjoy her chapters, though, maybe because it was kinda fun to watch her self-destruct.)
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Agreed about Cersei being more interesting and seeming more intelligent before we got her POV. I'm kinda hoping she gets killed off sooner rather than later. And I'm with Xav about the not reading new chapters. I want to read it, but I would rather read the whole book and not be disappointed with it.
I'll probably give in at some point, though, and read it, since it's a Jon chapter. I love Jon.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Me too. He's probably one of my two or three favorite characters in the series.
I think that my disappointment with the 4th book had less to do with having read the sample chapters and more with its pacing and general lack of "A list" characters.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I liked the last book, although it was the weakest of them so far. I liked having Cersei's POV too, because I could see where her mistakes were going to lead, or at least more so than she seemed to. Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Apparently, the new POV for ADWD has been revealed, by GRRM at one of his Spain signings.
It's not terribly spoilerific, but I'll put it under a bit more space just in case.
It's Melisandre. From what I can tell, this was figured out by elimination - the new POV won't be one of the Tyrells (Margaery, Loras), nor is it Sandor.
I'm a bit excited for this, but only on the condition that Davos isn't dead. Posted by Adam_S (Member # 9695) on :
I thought the new POV was Quentyn? or was there another new POV? Or is this a holdover from AFFC miniPOVs like the Dorne and Iron Island series of POVs (just kill everyone else already and get back to the core stories. )
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What's your source for this, Carrie?
Less than a week ago, one of my coworkers and I were talking about who his poorest choices for POV characters would be. Melisandre was behind only Howland Reed.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
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. I often say "He pushed a child out of a window!!!!" but it falls on deaf ears. I knew girls liked bad boys, but that's ridiculous. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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