quote:I believe that you are supposed to be in love with someone before you have sex with them
quote:How can they make the bible subjective like this? Do you think people like this are trying to justify their actions? or do they really beleive what they say?
quote:not to mention
Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God wil judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral
quote:But Tom, what you said made sense to me, about them not basing their actions on the bible but about a personal sense of morality.
he who marries the virgin does right
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Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God wil judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral
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he who marries the virgin does right
quote:It's useful in the same way anything you have to interpret is useful! Your science textbook, your mother's advice, your income tax statement, your posts on this forum - all of these are useful only insofar as your understanding of them is useful. Heck, even physical reality is something that you must interpret from your senses. This does mean it is possible to be mistaken about what it is telling you, but it certainly doesn't mean it's useless.
Xas- isnt basing your morality on your interpretation, making the bible subjective? and if you make it subjective, then what good is it at all?
quote:Where is this ever specifically defined?
having sex before marriage would be making the marriage bed impure
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quote:See, I think you're not filling in some logical holes. Having sex before marriage does not make the marriage bed impure UNLESS premarital sex is inherently impure -- which we cannot assume, since the purpose of this exercise is to prove this. Moreover, while "he who marries the virgin does right" (which, BTW, is clearly another property law issue), there's nothing in your quote to indicate that he who does not marry a virgin, or the virgin herself, has done WRONG.
having sex before marriage would be making the marriage bed impure. Did you read the other quote I posted earleir which said "he who marries the virgin does right"
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(1 Cor 7:7-9 NIV) I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. {8} Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. {9} But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
quote:Actually, the whole point of the doctrine of sola fide is that we can't earn Salvation. Ever. 'tis not an "earnable" commodity.
Farmgirl, so you think that we don't have to be charitable and kind unto others, and we can still earn Salvation??
quote:Actually that isn't what the Bible says. It says that the rain falls on the just and unjust alike, and that the unrigheous often flourish more than the righeous. And it says that you will be persecuted for being a Christian.
We all have freedom to follow moral laws or not, the Bible teaches us these laws, and those who don't follow them, sooner or later, will understand why the Bible recommended them.
It's like the law of gravity, if you don't believe in it, sooner or later, you're gonna get hurt.
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quote:Link to other verses
1 Thessalonians 4
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
quote:FG
Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
quote:then it says:
Strong's Concordance gives 19th century meanings to Greek and Hebrew words found in the Bible. It describes "pornea," as having a somewhat broader usage in Biblical times, compared to today. When used literally, it includes three activities: prostitution, adultery and incest. Figuratively it means idolatry, or sexual intercourse between unmarried persons
quote:How exactly is "sexual intercourse between unmarried persons" (first paragraph) any different than "pre-marital sex" (second paragraphy)?? In both cases, they are unmarried.
However, most conservative Christian churches have greatly expanded the English term "fornication." ... it now includes "premarital sex,
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quote:Sorry, Tom -- I went back and read it again, and just don't get that (what you said above) from that article. It does say the meaning has been BROADENED to include perhaps more than it should, but it never explicitly says that it DOES NOT refer to sex between people who are not married.
Farmgirl, the point of that link is that "pornea," which is translated "fornication" in the KJV, does not in fact refer to premarital sex
quote:I think my puzzlement comes from a perception that you didn't believe in the Bible anyway, so why would it matter if it did specifically address it?
would at least convince me that the Bible specifically addresses and censures the practice.
quote:Sorry to backtrack here, but thinking on this somehow made me realize I'm closer to the tradition I was raised in than I realized.
Farmgirl, so you think that we don't have to be charitable and kind unto others, and we can still earn Salvation??
By faith only? So I can just sit down and be idle and let my neighbor starve and, only because I believe, I am saved anyway?
I am sorry, Salvation is having Faith and being charitable. If we don't show charity we can't change the world for the better.
), being an explicit heretic doesn't bother me.quote:Don't you think that teaching unmarried adolescents to avoid sexual relations is trying to accomplish this very thing?
a matter of safety for people's hearts and bodies
quote:This isn't completely true. In some Christian denominations being a practicing homosexual is forgivable, and I don't know of any Christian denomination in which having practiced homosexuality isn't forgivable. However, forgivness requires reptance and if you're currently practicing homosexual behavior then you haven't fully repented and thus aren't able to recieve Christ's forgivness. Not all denominations hold this view, but some do (including mine
Is being a praticing homosexual an unforgivable sin? NO! not by any Christian text...
).
quote:Assuming the potential mother is healthy and able to bear children...
sex within marriage with the use of birth control - is an affront to Heavenly Father's intent.
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quote:I think you know what the Church's stance on this is Tom.
Since you've posted that, though, can I also assume that the Mormon church opposes fertility drugs, in-vitro fertilization, and adoption? (The first two because they ALSO meddle with the production of life, and the second because the biological process here is subverted by the legal?)
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We desire with holy zeal to emphasize the enormity of sexual sins. Though often regarded as insignificant by those not knowing the will of God, they are, in his eyes an abomination, and if we are to remain his favored people they must be shunned as the gates of hell. The evil results of these sins are so patent in vice, crime, misery and disease that it would appear that all, young and old, must perceive and sense them. They are destroying the world. If we are to be preserved we must abhor them, shun them, not practice the least of them, for they weaken and enervate, they kill man spiritually, they make him unfit for the company of the righteous and the presence of God. 6
We hold that sexual sin is second only to the shedding of innocent blood in the category of personal crimes. … We proclaim as the word of the Lord: “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” [Exodus 20:14.] “He that looketh on a woman to lust after her, or if any shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith.” [D&C 63:16.]
quote:Then I think you missed the point of that argument Tom. It wasn't her duty and privlege to bear him 15 children because she was a women, it was her duty and privledge because they could have 15 children and every child they denied entrance into this world is a missed privledge of raising (I certainly believe children are a blessing) and one who would have to wait to enter the world, and could not do so inside that family. It was her privledge because a child is a privilige (something special, a gift or a blessing) and her duty because it is comannded of God to have children, since the whole point of this Earth is to have people here living and experiencing life and we are the vessles through which these people arrive clearly it's our duty to keep the work up.
I'm afraid that lines like this one -- "My wife has borne to me fifteen children. Anything short of this would have been less than her duty and privilege." -- don't endear me to your faith or its proponents.
quote:Then you're assuming it's the only purpose of sex, to "pop out babies", which seems a little naive Tom, and is not the position that the Church takes either.
The central idea given in the essays -- that it is the duty of Mormons to pop out as many babies as possible so as not to delay the physical Tabernaculation of souls any longer than necessary -- is one that makes sex sound, quite frankly, remarkably unpleasant.
quote:That's not just using the power of procreation for something than what it's meant, though.
for they weaken and enervate, they kill man spiritually, they make him unfit for the company of the righteous and the presence of God.
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Sometimes we give as reasons for the law of chastity the risk of pregnancy or abortion, the possibility of an unwanted or embarrassing marriage, or the chance of a terrible venereal disease. With adultery, we talk about the damage of destroying an existing marriage or family. As serious as these things are, I’m not sure they are the fundamental reason for the Lord’s having placed this commandment ahead of armed robbery and fraud in the seriousness of sins.
Think of it—unchastity is second only to murder. Perhaps there is a common element in those two things—unchastity and murder. Both have to do with life, which touches upon the highest of divine powers. Murder involves the wrongful taking of life; sexual transgression may involve the wrongful giving of life, or the wrongful tampering with the sacred fountains of life-giving power.
I have been around enough to know that this is not the first time you have ever heard this subject mentioned. But I have also been around enough to know that no matter what you have heard and no matter how often, today we live in a world so completely soaked through with tragically wrong and evil ideas about sex that you must be warned—in love and kindness, but warned—lest the moral sleeping sickness that is overcoming the whole world calm you into deadly slumber.
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Church Handbook of Instructions
January 1999
It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.
Married couples also should understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife.
quote:(Emphasis original to text.)
In approaching this subject I do not document a host of social ills for which the statistics are as grim as the examples are offensive. Nor will I present here a checklist of do’s and don’ts about dating and boy-girl relationships. What I wish to do is more personal—I wish to try to answer questions some of you may have been asking: Why should we be morally clean? Why is it such an important issue to God? Does the Church have to be so strict about it when others don’t seem to be? How could anything society exploits and glamorizes so openly be very sacred or serious?
...
First is the revealed, restored doctrine of the human soul.
One of the “plain and precious” truths restored in this dispensation is that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” 5 and that when the spirit and body are separated, men and women “cannot receive a fulness of joy.” 6 That is the reason why obtaining a body is so fundamentally important in the first place,why sin of any kind is such a serious matter (namely because it is sin that ultimately brings both physical and spiritual death), and why the resurrection of the body is so central to the great triumph of Christ’s Atonement.
The body is an essential part of the soul. This distinctive and very important Latter-day Saint doctrine underscores why sexual sin is so serious. We declare that one who uses the God-given body of another without divine sanction abuses the very soul of that individual, abuses the central purpose and processes of life, “the very key” 7 to life, as President Boyd K. Packer once called it. In exploiting the body of another—which means exploiting his or her soul—one desecrates the Atonement of Christ, which saved that soul and which makes possible the gift of eternal life. And when one mocks the Son of Righteousness, one steps into a realm of heat hotter and holier than the noonday sun. You cannot do so and not be burned.
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Secondly, may I stress that human intimacy is reserved for a married couple because it is the ultimate symbol of total union, a totality and a union ordained and defined by God. From the Garden of Eden onward, marriage was intended to mean the complete merger of a man and a woman—their hearts, hopes, lives, love, family, future, everything. Adam said of Eve that she was bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh, and that they were to be “one flesh” in their life together. 13 This is a union of such completeness that we use the word seal to convey its eternal promise. The Prophet Joseph Smith once said we perhaps could render such a sacred bond as being “welded” 14 one to another.
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Can you see the moral schizophrenia that comes from pretending you are one, pretending you have made solemn promises before God, sharing the physical symbols and the physical intimacy of your counterfeit union but then fleeing, retreating, severing all such other aspects of what was meant to be a total obligation?
In matters of human intimacy, you must wait! You must wait until you can give everything, and you cannot give everything until you are legally and lawfully married. To give illicitly that which is not yours to give (remember, “you are not your own”) and to give only part of that which cannot be followed with the gift of your whole self is emotional Russian roulette. If you persist in pursuing physical satisfaction without the sanction of heaven, you run the terrible risk of such spiritual, psychic damage that you may undermine both your longing for physical intimacy and your ability to give wholehearted devotion to a later, truer love.
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Thirdly, may I say that physical intimacy is not only a symbolic union between a husband and a wife—the very uniting of their souls—but it is also symbolic of a shared relationship between them and their Father in Heaven. He is immortal and perfect. We are mortal and imperfect. Nevertheless we seek ways even in mortality whereby we can unite with Him spiritually. In so doing we gain some access to both the grace and the majesty of His power. Those special moments include kneeling at a marriage altar in the house of the Lord, blessing a newborn baby, baptizing and confirming a new member of the Church, partaking of the emblems of the Lord’s Supper, and so forth.
These are moments when we quite literally unite our will with God’s will, our spirit with His spirit, where communion through the veil becomes very real. At such moments we not only acknowledge His divinity but we quite literally take something of that divinity to ourselves. One aspect of that divinity given to virtually all men and women is the use of His power to create a human body, that wonder of all wonders, a genetically and spiritually unique being never before seen in the history of the world and never to be duplicated again in all the ages of eternity. A child, your child—with eyes and ears and fingers and toes and a future of unspeakable grandeur.
quote:But I've already explicitly told you twice Tom that I don't think it's the only purpose.
But I think you then leap to the conclusion that this is the exclusive purpose of all sex acts; the suggestion, for example, that sex SHOULD result in childbirth implies that it does not in fact have any other purpose.
quote:Hobbes
by President Ezra Taft Benson
Conference Report, April 1969, Pg.12
The world teaches birth control. Tragically, many of our sisters subscribe to its pills and practices when they could easily provide earthly tabernacles for more of our Father's children. We know that every spirit assigned to this earth will come, whether through us or someone else There are couples in the Church who think they are getting along just fine with their limited families but who will someday suffer the pains of remorse when they meet the spirits that might have been part of their posterity. The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or canceled. The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children. The Bible says, "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: ". . . Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them. . ." (Ps. 127:3, 5.) We believe God is glorified by having numerous children and a program of perfection for them. So also will God glorify that husband and wife who have a large posterity and who have tried to raise them up in righteousness.
That's it exactly.
quote:Hobbes, I'm concerned about this, because I don't believe that it is the same kind of "it's up to you" as in the case of free agency.
Yes, it's between the couple and the Lord, that doesn't mean the Church hasn't set down some pretty clear guidlines for it, just means that you have to make the final choice. As you do with all things...
quote:Okay, so I didn't read that site very thoroughly, either. The quotes I was most interested in was the one from the current Church Handbook of Instructions.
I don't know if I'd rely more on the authority of that site, Jon Boy - those are quotes from Relief Society Magazine and personal correspondance. Neither of those sources are official church doctrine.
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quote:Which is why I asked if you were using birth and conception interchangably. The author of that site cited this as an example of the Church's stance on birth control, but to me it sounds like a stance on abortion, which isn't the same thing. Preventing birth implies that conception has already occured, and thus there is a birth to be preventing. Preventing conception is a totally seperate issue. Unless you're equating the two distinct concepts.
"It is contradictory to [the temple marriage] covenant to prevent the birth of children if the parents are in good health."
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quote:Doesnt it say somewhere that suicide is the worst sin a person can commit? Although, maybe people say that and there is no actual religous backing for it.
you know that it's pretty clear that one sin is not worse than any other sin in God's eyes
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Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
-- Matthew 12:31
quote:Celia:
Preventing birth implies that conception has already occured, and thus there is a birth to be preventing. Preventing conception is a totally seperate issue. Unless you're equating the two distinct concepts.
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quote:Note: I'm not endorsing all of the opinions on that website because some of it is anti-catholic but this part of the info is correct.
The Ten Commandments (Ex. 34:28; Deut. 10:4, marg. "ten words") i.e., the Decalogue (q.v.), is a summary of the immutable moral law. These commandments were first given in their written form to the people of Israel when they were encamped at Sinai, about fifty days after they came out of Egypt (Ex. 19:10-25). They were written by the finger of God on two tables of stone. The first tables were broken by Moses when he brought them down from the mount (32:19), being thrown by him on the ground. At the command of God he took up into the mount two other tables, and God wrote on them "the words that were on the first tables" (34:1). These tables were afterwards placed in the ark of the covenant (Deut. 10:5; 1 Kings 8:9). Their subsequent history is unknown. They are as a whole called "the covenant" (Deut. 4:13), and "the tables of the covenant" (9:9, 11; Heb. 9:4), and "the testimony." They are obviously "ten" in number, but their division is not fixed, hence different methods of numbering them have been adopted. The Jews make the "Preface" one of the commandments, and then combine the first and second. The Roman Catholics and Lutherans combine the first and second and divide the tenth into two. The Jews and Josephus divide them equally. The Lutherans and Roman Catholics refer three commandments to the first table and seven to the second. The Greek and Reformed Churches refer four to the first and six to the second table. The Samaritans add to the second that Gerizim is the mount of worship.
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Exodus 20 :: King James Version (KJV)
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.