A story from elsewhere, I only beg you to read without judgement until the end:
There once was a poor traveler, this traveler was an idiot. Everybody knew it, he was an idiot with a Capital I. Whenever this travel went into a town, there would be townspeople who would extort him, going up to him as beggers asking him for things. And being a kind person, he would give them whatever he had, his food, his pack, even his shoes and clothes. And the people would smile and say "thank you, you've saved us!" And because the traveler was so gullible, he believed them at face value.
Finally the traveler gave away all his posessions, and went into the deep forest in embarrisment because he was naked and had nothing beyond what he had the day he was born. Inside this forest there were many monsters, who also knew that he was extremely gullible. And so they went to him and asked him for body parts because they were starving, and being a kind person, he gave away his body to them, his arms, his legs until he was left with only his head.
And then one final monster asked the traveler for his eyes, and he gave them. Before the monster left it told the traveler "Here, I have a gift for you." And dropped a piece of paper in front of him, on the paper was written the word: idiot. But the traveler being blind started crying tears of joy saying "Thank you! I am so happy! I have never recieved a gift, thank you! Thank you!" With endless tears of joy flowing out of his eyeless sockets, he died shortly after. Here the story ends.
Before you judge the traveler and call him idiot, think for a moment and ask yourself: "Is he really an idiot?" If you say his life was worthless because he did nothing except get cheated, ask yourself why you think that way. Doesn't personal happiness matter? This man lived his life the way he wanted to, and though he was poor, and without posessions, he was above all things happy. He died with joy. I ask you, in this world of technological marvels, war, famine, and every man for himself, is there any space for just living happily and doing what's right for the joy of it being right? I ask you, is there space for happiness anymore?
I pray only that this story was worthy of you, my peers. For those that are curious where the story came from, I originally heard it on the anime series Fruit Basket, and wanted the joy of sharing it with you. Satyagraha
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I say there is. Happiness is all that matters, really, and if the idiot was the happiest man in the world then he was also the best, and the most successful.
Of course, one could also say that ignorance is bliss.
Posted by Azile (Member # 2312) on :
Ah, I remember that story and I agree with it. As long as you're happy, that is all that matters in the end.
Just out of curiosity, what were you doing watching such a girlie anime, eh? ::grin:: Just kidding - Fruits Basket was an awesome show with some very heart warming messages indeed. Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Before you judge the traveler and call him idiot, think for a moment and ask yourself: "Is he really an idiot?" If you say his life was worthless because he did nothing except get cheated, ask yourself why you think that way.
The only reason he wasn't worthless is because he was an idiot.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
What exactly you mean by that, I do not know. It is indeed a worthy story, still meaningful if told a thousand times.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The traveler was, indeed, an idiot. He did not make the conscious choice to live altruisticly, at least as the story is framed; he was fooled into parting with his possessions, his health, and ultimately his life. That this made him happy is due entirely to his own idiocy -- so a better moral might well be "ignorance is bliss."
Had he KNOWN what the crowds thought of him, or known what was on the paper he received as a "gift," he would not have died happy -- or so the story has us assume.
There is a difference between stupidity and altruism.
[ June 27, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Well said, Tom.
I'll just add that I the story implies that the path to happiness is ignorance, whereas I've found just the opposite to be true.
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
Altruism wasn't the point though, it was his happiness, and he got it. He was sucessful, and happy. Tom, Bob ignore the altruism part, that's not the point of the story, the point of the story is that in his own way, he achieved his own personal happiness. Satyagraha
[ June 27, 2004, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: BYuCnslr ]
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Anyone who gives body parts to a monster, expecting nothing in return, is indeed an idiot. But I love the spirit of your story, and do see the beauty in what you are hoping each of us will recognize: that being the selflessness of this individual to an extreme.
Still, I, being a realist, see naive foolishness and idiocrity in his choices.
Posted by Jalapenoman (Member # 6575) on :
By reading the previous posts, I may be the only one who sees the religious connotations in the story.
Let's think of Jesus and his healings, miracles, and atoning sacrifice for all of humanity. He gave all willingly as the sacrificial lamb. In the end, he said "Father, forgive them...."
Think of the cleansing of the ten lepers. Only one was thoughtful enough to even thank him for the miracle. THe other nine ran off through a field.
God hears and answers prayers, from children who often do not follow through on their end of the agreement.
I also think somewhat of parenting and it's sometimes seeminly thankless sacrifices for the children.
I do not consider God and Christ and all good parents to be idiots. I just think that they know a higher form of love.
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
Alucard, in any way of looking at it, the traveler is an idiot. I don't deny that fact, however...at the end he found something that many people realists and idealists alike haven't: happiness.
However, there is a major failing of this story that I don't know how to rectify, while the story states that we should search for our own personal happiness beyond all else, with billions of people...one person's happiness is going to tramp upon another person's search for happiness, and there's the question of isn't there anything more than the individual, which I'd have to say most of us do -afterall, we are social animals- so then I'm forced to think to the principle of utilitarianism in which one shouldn't give one's self any special consideration but consider the happiness of the whole, and do what makes the most people the happiest. But, that has it's problem where someone should consider one's self. Woe to the world for being so circular.
And really-hot-n-yummy-pepper-man (hehe), I have a slight poke at the parents and children that you talk about, and that's while children should be thankful to their parents, parents should be thankful to the children as well, after all it is their fault that the children came about in the first place.
Satyagraha
[ June 27, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: BYuCnslr ]
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Well said BYu.
JalepenoHombre, The FIRST thing I thought of while reading this story was that this was going to be another way of telling Jesus' story. I figured other readers would draw the same conclusion, so I did not mention the similarities, but I do follow your way of thinking.
I would just like to summarize for me that this story is a beautiful tragedy, a paradox, and want to thank BYu for getting me thinking.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
How beautiful. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Perhaps if you left off the part where you state outright that the traveler was an idiot, I would agree that this is another way of telling Jesus' story.
As it is, you'd be calling Jesus an idiot.
Perhaps if you said that other people thought he was an idiot rather than saying that he WAS an idiot. The narrator seems to be taking sides on the issue of the traveler's idiocy. Maybe inflection has a lot to do with it.
However, that still wouldn't do it. Not only did Jesus have reasons for his actions, he knew what those reasons were and stated them clearly. So, if you believe in Jesus, you don't emulate him by becoming an unwitting dupe of those who impose upon you. You might give freely to them, but you do so for good reasons.
I think that was Tom's point too. I'm pretty sure we ALL saw the religious parallels in this story.
Unfortunately, it seems to be one of two things: 1) a watered-down version intended to get a message across to children and creating a rather false impression if you ask me, or 2) a culturally-specific attempt to confound altruism, ignorance, and happiness as examples of a virtuous life.
I "get" the story. I just wouldn't want to explain it to a child because I'd have to tell them that the author made a few serious mistakes and that he was talking down to them.
In fact, I don't think I've hated a story this much in years. It's horrid. What kind of lesson is that to give children? Be a doormat, you'll be happy even if everyone laughs behind your back?
I could see telling this story only under very specific circumstances. For example, I might tell it if I found a group of children taunting another child who is a bit slow-witted. I would still want to change it though. I mean, really, some kids might take home the message that taking advantage of simple-minded people actually makes them happy. That too is a literal lesson of this tale, is it not?
Ugh.
This story is difficult on so many levels.
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
Bob- I agree wholeheartedly, that's why I'm not telling it to children, I'm telling it to hatrack (who...in our own right are children, act like little children, etc), I'm telling the story to adults that are able to discern the different parts of the story, in other words, for the sake of discussion so that we're comparing apples to apples, I'm blantly ignoring the part that he's an idiot and concentrating on the part where he's found happiness. I admit, I aspire to become a sage on the stage and want to shape the discussion a certain way, but it seems to me that too many people are going about life and their work just because they have to, and are completely ignoring what I seem as a most important part to life: happiness. Beyond that point, I also want to figure out my own happiness and how I should be going about getting it. Satyagraha
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Bob, I hope I did not anger you. What I was implying was that as I read this story, I initially thought this might be another Christ-like analogy to explain infinite love. As I completed the story, I was certain that the character in this story is not meant to be Jesus, and I do not mean to imply that in any way or that Jesus is or was an idiot.
What is beautiful in a tragic way is the extreme example of this person's actions. What it reminded me of was OSC's analogy in the Speaker series of the Rabbi and the Prostitute and the two different but extreme views of extreme corruption and extreme rigidity to law. Those parables would not be suitable for children either, but it is a beautiful way to prove a point, or better yet, to teach. This story, even if disgusting, can teach a lesson.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Personal happiness should not be the end-all, be-all. Global happiness should be the end-all, be-all.
You can't attain global happiness by enabling the unhealthy habits of others. Giving lame, unworthy people stuff, letting yourself be fooled into giving them your stuff, and ultimately dying because of it only validates their own mental illnesses and makes it that much more difficult for the next poor sap to come along.
So, in my opinion, the story is bunk. Sorry, Bernie.
edit: I just repeated earlier remarks, so I guess I'm merely echoing them.
[ June 27, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
This is *so* not a children's fable. It is a paradox, something to be pondered and considered. A "zen" moment, if you will. In fact, it sounds like the sort of story that OSC would write.
*pauses in silence out of respect for the story*
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Wow, I hate it even more if it's intended for adults.
I didn't think it was possible for my hatred of this story to grow upon further reflection.
By the way, nobody is getting me angry. My strong visceral reaction to this story is not anything I would take out on another human being. (Unlike the guy who grabbed me by the collar as we exited the theater after watching Bambi.)
Anyway, we don't all have to like the story.
One of my favorites is A Christmas Carol by Dickens and I know many people who just hate that thing.
I think The Gift of the Magi is an example of why people shouldn't try to surprise each other.
And Animal Farm is NOT about Communism. It's talking animals. That's all!
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
In my opinion, the story is terrible for teaching about being selfless. Whether it's immediate or not, giving does change people on both ends. His sacrifices were for nothing.
I don't like the story being paralleled with Christ. Christ was fully aware of what people said about him. His love for each one of us is so deep that there aren't even words to describe it. And many people actually were grateful for the smaller things He did.
Because of this, I think it's insulting to compare a town idiot to Christ.
[ June 27, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: weezer ]
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
True ralphie, but I a small problem with that thought, global happiness is near impossible, and it is nearly impossible for any single person or group of people to achieve it, so there is a point where we can only do what we can achieve, and that may be our own happiness and those nearest to us. But with the thought and hope of achieve how to some sort of communial happiness as a step to global happiness, my point still stands, people aren't doing it anymore, in fact...they're barely paying attention to happiness anymore, people are just going about their lives and jobs because they have to, not because they want to...at least most people. The majority of American continually change careers because they don't like it, I think I can safely say the majority of the people I know aren't happy with their jobs, and the majority of the ones that are...are professors and teachers.
To put emphasis for current and future readers: My concentration for this story is the search for happiness, not altruism, nor any comparison to religious figures. The only thing this story is suppose to show (metaphorically or otherwise), is a man's achievement of his personal happiness, reading into it any deeper is useless, and a moot point. For some reason, I doubt the original creator meant it for anything else. Satyagraha
[ June 27, 2004, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: BYuCnslr ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
<post changed to reflect a new reality>
do try to keep up people.!!!
[ June 27, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Sorry. I changed it. I'm just so used to adults ignoring me and how I look at things because I'm only sixteen.
[ June 27, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: weezer ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Bernie - People not focusing on global happiness doesn't mean it should stop being the goal.
In fact, I would say that enabling someone else's bad behavior because you refuse to grow up, learn from your mistakes, and disconnect from unhealthy people is one of the strongest fertilizers in which to grow unhappiness and general discontent. Continuing these habits in pursuit of your own personal happiness? I would say that this is just as selfish.
The "tale" says the guy is an idiot, not developmentally disabled.
[ June 27, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
BYU...
I seriously think that the author was going for something deeper and missed.
But that's okay. I can understand the search for personal happiness.
I'd even go so far as to support highly idiosyncratic approaches to the search for happiness. Why not? Who's to tell me where my happiness lies? As long as I'm not hurting anyone else in my pursuits, what's the big deal, right?
Now, let's look at this from another standpoint. Did this guy have a family? Did he harm them by foolishly giving away everything he could've used to their benefit? Was his wife deprived of his company when he was finally eaten by the monsters? Did his achievement of personal happiness really stem from a selfish act afterall?
We'll never know. All we're given is this weird little allegory about a guy who dies happy thinking someone has finally given him a gift.
It's starting to strike me as something far outside the Western culture in which I grew up. Maybe if I tried to understand it from a cultural perspective I might get some insight from it. Is it a Japanese story (you mentioned anime earlier)? Is this something that illuminates an aspect of Japanese culture?
I must be overanalyzing it.
LOL
by the way, I also hated that anime movie Swept Away, or Blown away, whatever it was called. Where the little girl's parents turn into pigs and she becomes a slave and some weird monster saves her but eats everyone else... Whisked away? What was it called?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I viscerally hate "Hart's Hope" and "Kingsmeat" but I think the stories have important merit. If nothing else, they get you thinking.
Spirited Away. (love that movie!)
I think you are onto something, Bob. The story feels very Eastern. I have come a lot closer to Japanese culture these last few years and come to appreciate their very different approach to life.
[ June 27, 2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Sorry. I changed it. I'm just so used to adults ignoring me and how I look at things because I'm only sixteen.
Ain't no big thang.
And I was in total agreement with the thought you expressed. I just was hoping to avoid a flame war.
's cool.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
What exactly is a "flame war"? Just people venting their beliefs, or what?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Just people insulting each other, pretty much.
Nerd.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Jerk.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Remember when I threatened to drive over there and noogie you? That threat still stands.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Well, my personal definition of it is a little bit more involved than that. People are certainly encouraged to express their opinions. Where we get into trouble is when people decide that they are absolutely right for all people and for all time.
It usually starts over something like religion, politics or breastfeeding (just kidding on that last one).
Typical exchanges will be something like:
1) Well, we're all one in Jesus. 2) I'm not Christian, does that leave me out? 3) Jesus loves you anyway. 4) Um, thanks, but that doesn't really mean anything to me...
<insert escalation of argument here>
20) Jesus was a fraud who ruined the lives of countless Jews, and besides he didn't even exist.
21) You're going to hell. In fact, you are so damned to hell that even if you converted right now, you'll still end up in hell!
Okay, I'm exagerating, but still...these things are seldom fun for any but the participants.
But you didn't have to change your post if you really felt that strongly about it. Who knows, you might enjoy a good flame war now and again.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I personally believe that everytime Bob uses the little green supa-smiley he's condemning himself to a hell that even the shed blood of weezer's savior won't be able to propitiate.
Just my opinion, of course. Don't flame me.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Ah. Danke. Kann tausend Segen auf Ihrem Kopf sein.
[ June 27, 2004, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: weezer ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Since when did you speak German?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Seit jetzt.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Je pense que Babelfish c'est la seule langue que tu parle.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
No. I'm also fluent in Yiddish, scumbag.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Fer emes?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Oh, please. You don't even know what Yiddish is.
(Not you, rivka.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*snicker* No, I knew who you meant. And I'm curious if I get a response.
(And this, boys and girls, is why I never ever send link to Hatrack to any of my siblings. Let them stay disdainful of my forums! )
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I blame Brinestone.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*giggle* Blaming your wife in public? The honeymoon IS over. Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Honey, it never even started!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*raised eyebrow* And you would know this?
Posted by Azile (Member # 2312) on :
quote:In fact, I don't think I've hated a story this much in years. It's horrid. What kind of lesson is that to give children? Be a doormat, you'll be happy even if everyone laughs behind your back?
There are many different ways to interpret this story.
But what I am getting from this story is who the heck cares if people are laughing behind you're back or if people are cheating you out of things. If you yourself are happy with where your at, then that is all that matters. Who cares if they believe think that you are stupid or are ignorant. I wouldnât- that is, care. Be happy with yourself and care less what others think of you or what others say of you- if you are happy, then you are happy. That is all that matters.
With me for example, I always dress in baggy clothes that I've had for years (some T-Shirt I had since 4th grade). My baggy clothes has nothing to do with my weight, at five four, I weigh 115 pounds and am content with it. I've just been wearing baggy clothes since I was six and I am rather attached to it. It has nothing to do with low self-esteem because anyone who knows me will know, that I am happy with my er- physical appearance. I just stand stubbornly with my belief that I should not conform societies standards and just be me. I know that there are people at school who laugh at me behind my back but do I care? No. I am happy my baggy clothes that I've had since I was a munchkin and if people think I am stupid for wearing it then well screw them. My personal happiness is all that matters- for me.
Of course you can take that idea and mold it into the concept that people should do bad things for their own personal happiness but I just doubt that is the message this story is truly trying to promote.
Added at End: Bah! I always take way too long to post. Now this thread has spiraled into a giant ball of fluff. Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
rivka, uh . . . no?
[ June 27, 2004, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: weezer ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Honey, it never even started!
I'm not even touching that one.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Not even with gloves?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Maybe with gloves. But I'll definitely noogie you with my bare hands later.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Azile, yes, I realize that sort of thing is what the author was probably trying to convey. I just think he or she missed the mark by a bit and could've done a far better job than portraying the protagonist as an ACTUAL idiot, as opposed to someone who everyone believes to be an idiot.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Jonbert, remember when I was only about 4 yrs old and you'd go get your hands wet and start rubbing my arms just to make me cry?
[ June 27, 2004, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: weezer ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Good times.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Uh, yeah. The best. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Bernard, if personal happiness at the moment of death is all it takes to justify one's life, would you say that dying of a blissful, hallucinogenic drug overdose is a good and redemptive thing?
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Good point. I was actually thinking the same thing earlier.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I don't know... I think the brain probably releases endogenous morphines at the moment of death anyway. Sort of a massive stress reliever, you know.
We probably trip into the next world anyway.
But just in case, don't hesitate to give me my morphine allotment.
Mmmm morphine....
okay, I had it once after surgery. I really, really liked it.
I'm not saying I'm going to go out and buy it for myself, but it made surgery a lot more fun than it would've been otherwise.
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
:: laughs ::
Very good point, Tom. And in spite of the conversation, I almost want to say yes. But for the sake of argument, I'll say no because most people like living more than dying (which is altogether a different argument).
With that thought, I continue to wonder what would allow everlasting happiness, refering to the anime series, the story was given as an antecedent about the main character, who spent a small portion of the money that she was going to use to pay for her high school tuition on gifts for her friends on Valentine's Day (mind you that she did pay her tuition, just a little later than normal). She did this because she loved her friends, and gave them gifts as a sign of friendship and showed them that she was happy to be with them (to quickly answer Bob, the author of the story did mean it to only show happiness and was keen to point it out in the story). With that in mind, I'm probably not taking the story as literally as most of you are...probably because of the context I recieved in. I see him going about and dying ON the path to attain happiness, and I see too many people around me completely forgetting about happiness and just stumbling through life without a thought of why they're doing what they're doing... :: gets all introspective and quiet :: Satyagraha
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
From reading about drugs and accounts of people who have died clinically, death sounds more like an extremely dysphoric dissociative trip. Something to be avoided. One account told of viewing their loved ones dying in horrible ways, life flashing before the eyes in bad ways, horrible stuff like that. If a normal death is really like this, then dying of a drug overdose (depending upon the type of drug and how pleasant OD actually is) sounds better than any other type of death.
Being happy only in your death may not be a good thing if the price is unhappiness up to that point. On the other hand, better pure bliss at death and an unhappy life than an unhappy life and a bad DXM trip at the end. Better still to lock your mind to "happy" as much as is possible throughout one's life. I would not call any of those options redeeming, but one is very good and one is somewhat good.
Why should global happiness be the goal? I have yet to see a convincing argument for valuing the happiness of those who deliberately and maliciously cause you harm or pain over your own happiness. I really have not even seen conclusive proof that the happiness of others in general is a higher moral goal than my own happiness. The only time I could see valuing the happiness of a group over my own is if I actually cared about the group for my own reasons.
Also, global happiness will never be attained because some people need opposite things to make them happy. Why bother with something that is futile?
Edit: spelling again. The worst part is that was the word I was trying to fix! I have been at work too long.
[ June 27, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Danzig ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Why should globab happiness be the goal? ...
. . .
Edit: spelling
I don't know, but I think if we can't achieve globab happiness, we're just a complete waste as a species.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Glow little globab, glimmer glimmer....
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Then we are a waste. Oh well. Most of the enjoyable parts of life are complete wastes of time.
Posted by weezer (Member # 6643) on :
Maybe you're not doing the right things then. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"The only time I could see valuing the happiness of a group over my own is if I actually cared about the group for my own reasons."
Yeah, and how likely is that? Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
Depends. Which group are we talking about here?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:...concentrating on the part where he's found happiness...
Our hero may have found contentment, but he fell far short of my personal definition of happiness.
A baby born and raised in a garbage can, never seeing the light of day, may be content because he doesn't know what he's missing, but is he happy? Marshmallows may be content, but are they happy?
In my opinion happiness requires learning and changing: discovering what has value and obtaining it.
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