Anybody watch/watched this grown up, intense and intelligent cartoon series?
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I did. Man I loved that show. I so wanted to be a gargoyle.
Posted by Mr.Gumby (Member # 6303) on :
Is it about Gargoyles in New York and the oldest one is named Hudson because of the river. (This is about all that I remember of it)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The only think I really know about it is that it seems to have had the entire cast of Star Trek, TNG on it as a voice actor at some time or another. Oh, and Mark Hammil does one of the voices. But then, he's a voice in practically every cartoon.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I don't know about "grew up watching it", but I did watch it.
I found it intensely amusing the number of ST:NG actors did roles on the show.
And Xanatos was just...cool.
-Trevor
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
I totally and completely loved this show. I would race home from school everyday to watch it. Reruns on disney. Mmmm.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I still like it...I never get to see it though.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
It had some incredible writing - and the perpetual Shakesepare tie-ins were just...cool.
And I gotta admit, MacBeth was my favorite character.
-Trevor
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I so wish I had it on DVD...
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
I grew up watching the show and saw about 60% of its run the summer right before I started the sixth grade.
Toon Disney airs the series from 11-12 every night, meaning in that they run through the whole series every two and a half months. More than a week ago they restarted the series with the amazing "Awakening" five parter.
After seven years, it's really pleasing watching this show again and having my suspicion that it is one of the most amazing television shows of all time confirmed. Because the show contained wonderful central characters who were truly Heroic without being cheesy, and writers who never underestimated the intelligence of its young audience and gave them long plot arcs that were demanding as much as they were entertaining--you had to pay attention because the show was like a mini-series, each episode having a long backstory to it. Shakespearean references were all over the place--just the other night an episode which clearly had "Othello" as its basis, and the character of Puck, Oberon and Macbeth were all well used by the writers in a rich and thoughtful fashion.
And the voice actors ruled, specially Keith Davids as Goliath (You know Keith Davids, he's that middle aged actor who played the Loan shark in Barbershop) and Jonathan Frakes as David Xanatos...plus Bret Spiner as Puck, Mirina Siris as Demona.
The show lasted two seasons, about 65 episodes, I think, then Disney decided it was too good a program, and canceled it, but after sometime brought it back as "The Goliath Chronicles", a pale shadow of the former show which lacked the thematic complexity and storytelling momentum, as well as gorgeous animation, of the first two seasons. It went away after 13 or so eps.
At any rate, it was a great show, check it out, if you ever get the chance...
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Yeah, I remember not catching the Goliath Chronicles because it looked BAD.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
They were. And after the quality of the first run, it was just sad.
Although I really, really wanted to hear Patrick Stewart voice a character - after all, they got Michael Dorn to voice one.
-Trevor
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
They originally wanted Patrick Stewart to voice Goliath, but he asked for too much money, so they went with Keith Davids...
Posted by alath (Member # 6150) on :
I used to watch it all the time. Now, I'll watch it every once and a while, whenever I see that it's on. Very good show.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Stewart as Goliath...hmmm.
-Trevor
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
I still love it. First season is out on DVD, first half of second season coming this winter! =D
I really adored it in season 2 when you learn how the character of Demona managed to survive that thousand years, and her connection to MacBeth and the Weird Sisters...
=D
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
What I liked most about the show was that its lead villian was not a vengeance seeking one dimensional character. Sure there were plenty of those in the series, but the main villian did bad and evil things for purely selfish reasons. He didn't care about revenge, only success.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
*some spoilers*
Dan, you're right! During the final episode of season two (season 3 is not considered canon) the character of Xanatos has a thoroughly understandable transformation! You're right--it isn't that he's one dimensional but he's driven by a need to control, and as you later learn, fear of death. =D
Even Demona--who on the outside appears more of a traditional villain--has a perfect, understandable reason for her hatred. There's an episode when we see her younger self before her hatred developed and you ultimately recognize her as a tragic figure.
Even MacBeth had a reason for hunting Demona. =D
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I loved Gargoyles as a kid! But then it got into the whole Pheonix Gate thing where they kept messing with time, and I got bored/ confused with it. I'd miss an episode and have no clue what was going on. Still, would be nice if I could get my hands on a copy of that now...
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
I remember watching it as a kid too and it was certainly demanding, but at the same time refreshing that they expected you to keep track of so many threads! There are three magical items that are reoccuring in the series--Grimorum Arcanorum (the magic book), Odin's Eye and the Phoenix Gate. The latter allowed for further exploration of the things that occur in the middle ages! =D
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I didn't get to see too many episodes of it, but I liked what I saw when I was younger. I wouldn't mind watching the series right through now.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I watched the first two or three episodes (didn't they premiere the series by combining 2 or 3 episodes together into a movie-style format?). After that I couldn't watch it anymore though. It was either a) because it was on in the morning and I was already off to school or b) because it was on at some other time or channel that I couldn't see it at. I don't remember which, since my memory has sort of blended together a lot of great cartoons into the "missed" category.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
pfresh85, explore this series! You're in for a treat. =D
A typical cartoon needs only one episode to establish itself. Gargoyles opens with an amazing and tragic 5 episode arc whose repercussions are always dealt with for the rest of the series. When Goliath first comes back to the sacked castle and sees his fellow gargoyles slain--that cry that erupts from him is gut wrenching.
And early on in season 2 they allow us to view the same event from Demona's perspective and it's just as tragic.
And I just read that the creator planned for the series to ultimately include characters from The Tempest! And maybe all of Shakespeare--I mean, we already had MacBeth, Titania, Oberon & Puck! =)
And ultimately its cancellation wasn't that sad anyway, as season 2 ends with a satisfying note with nearly every element of the plot and the world of the gargoyles dealt with.
I think the creator and writers were able to effectively serialize the story because Disney mass ordered some 50+ episodes for the second season, and thus they could accordingly plan ahead. =D
Lovely show.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
If Buffy The Vampire Slayer has a huge following, why not Gargoyles?
=(
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
I think I saw one episode once when I was a kid, but I couldn't watch it all because I had to go to school.
The show was usually on at the time I left for school so I never quite had the chance to catch it on after that.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Weird, I was talking about this show today. I watched it every day after school, I would still watch it if I had it/ knew when it was on.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Loved this show. Used to watch it in college with a group of buds. Long live Oberon! King of the High Elves!
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
So I've been looking into the series now, and I've managed to see the first 5 episodes (the little Awakening arc). It brought up some questions though. First, how did the gargoyles get up to the air ship? Goliath said (and later Xanatos mentioned it too) that the gargoyles cannot flight; they can only glide. On top of that, they said there weren't strong enough currents to carry them very high. So how is that the gargoyles got on to the air ship which was a) higher than they were and b) had air being pushed out of it thus causing a current to go against the gargoyles ascent? It just doesn't make sense. The other question goes into technicalities. So what is it about the sunlight that turns the gargoyles to stone? It can't be the light component, otherwise the street lights and such would turn them to stone (as would any flashlights, spotlights, etc.). If it's the UV component, then couldn't a weapon be easily developed to turn the gargoyles to stone once you knew their weakness? Like have some kind of UV gun or something and another person standing by the smash them once they were stone? Maybe I'm just totally off on this, but it was something that came to mind while watching.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Oh, and Mark Hammil does one of the voices. But then, he's a voice in practically every cartoon.
I knew he did voices in Batman and Wing Commander, but I didn't know of any others, so I went to IMDB and looked him up. Holy crap! I had no idea the guy did so many voices.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, like almost any comic or cartoon, there are some physics flaws here and there. For instance one being how a quarter-ton gargoyle (that's just a guess as to weight) would be able to glide on just wings and air current at all. I suppose it's possible...and they DO have to do things like leap from a height or be thrown somehow in order to start gliding at all.
As for the light issue...they're magical creatures. Shouldn't be too much of a stretch to accept there is somethind fundamentally different about sunlight than artificial light, on that level.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well the light thing I'll give you. It is a fictious world, so the light could be different and such. The flying thing still irks me though. The show sets up its world and tells the viewer that gargoyles can't fly and yet we see them flying (or at least not gliding and rising higher). Just not good in my opinion.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Series creator Greg Weisman will be writing the all-new Gargoyles bi-monthly comic, starting in either January or February of '06.
It'll ignore The Goliath Chronicles in favor of the direction he planned to take the series before the disney TV animation regime changed.
If all goes well, he plans to eventually bridge the gap between where the characters were in 1993 and where they will be now.
Among other things they plan to introduce Brooklyn's destiny (and mate!), several new enemies, and expand upon the characters and situations seen during the "World tour".
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: So I've been looking into the series now, and I've managed to see the first 5 episodes (the little Awakening arc). It brought up some questions though. First, how did the gargoyles get up to the air ship? Goliath said (and later Xanatos mentioned it too) that the gargoyles cannot flight; they can only glide. On top of that, they said there weren't strong enough currents to carry them very high. So how is that the gargoyles got on to the air ship which was a) higher than they were and b) had air being pushed out of it thus causing a current to go against the gargoyles ascent? It just doesn't make sense. The other question goes into technicalities. So what is it about the sunlight that turns the gargoyles to stone? It can't be the light component, otherwise the street lights and such would turn them to stone (as would any flashlights, spotlights, etc.). If it's the UV component, then couldn't a weapon be easily developed to turn the gargoyles to stone once you knew their weakness? Like have some kind of UV gun or something and another person standing by the smash them once they were stone? Maybe I'm just totally off on this, but it was something that came to mind while watching.
Regarding the question of flight, I think that a gargoyle can't ever just jump up and fly--they are almost always falling from some place or another, with the ability to sustain height as long as the plot requires.
Regarding the sun/stone element, there's no scientific answer the show offers. You should just take it on faith that they're magical creatures magically affected by the sun. (I believe probably that had the show gone on with its original team of writers/producers it would've eventually explained how Gargoyles as a race came to exist. For instance, Greg Weisman hinted as much when the question of "why do their clothes turn to stone too" came up. He explained that Julius Caeser had a sorcerer cast a "spell of humility" on the Gargoyles so that what they wear becomes stone too.) =D
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
But where would you fall from to fly up to an air ship? That's what doesn't make sense. I can understand if there was some place equally high they jumped from and glided to, but the air ship seemed to be soaring above all else. That's why it doesn't work for me.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I bet you wonder how Smurfs reproduced, too.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
No, not as much. I just assumed there were more Smurfettes hidden somewhere. Either that or that the Smurfs would eventually go extinct. I didn't put a whole lot of thought into the issue.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: But where would you fall from to fly up to an air ship? That's what doesn't make sense. I can understand if there was some place equally high they jumped from and glided to, but the air ship seemed to be soaring above all else. That's why it doesn't work for me.
I think the show allows them the ability to sustain & gain height to considerable distances because, above all else, it's cool.
Let's not start wondering why Buffy doesn't have a bruised face despite the fact that the vampire just pounded her face pretty hard. =D
edit: This was to pfresh, someone snuck in while I wasn't looking!
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't know. I can dream up quite a bit. Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Regarding the stone question...
"Greg's answer:
quote:At sunrise (more or less), the entire gargoyle body turns into an organic substance that resembles stone, placing the gargoyle in a state of suspended animation. The body does function to some degree. The organic "stone-like" substance absorbs solar energy. The internal biological clock continues to function. Healing takes place. Dreaming too. But to a large degree, a daytime gargoyle is for all intents and purposes a stone statue.
At sunset (more or less), the transformation reverses from the inside out, leaving only a shedable outer layer of "stone" that cracks off as the gargoyle awakens. "
"9. How is it possible that stone sleep is a natural biological process?
Greg:
It's one of many amazing biological processes, such as the bio-electricity of electric eels; the color-changing of the chameleon; the ability of some frogs and lungfish to hibernate without food, water, or even air for amazing lengths of time; or the ability of one species of deep-sea worms to feed directly on thermal energy. Just because it isn't a presently seen biological process doesn't mean it can't be. The boundaries on what is considered "valid" biological processes change all the time.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
See, but that still seems to imply that something about the sun is causing this metamorphosis. So that goes back to my question about some how utilizing whatever it is about the sun to force the gargoyles into the stone-like state.
EDIT: I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense or isn't possible. I just think there could be a way for some villain to utilize the weakness artificially .
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Well who knows. That could've been a potential weapon! =D
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Yeah. I don't know. I guess I had too much time to think on the subject. Too much free time on my hands in general. Well no harm done. Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
No your question is valid. Neat plot idea, too.
Say, it'd be cool if you could share your impressions on the show otherwise! =D
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well, as I said before, I've watched the first five episodes. I liked them pretty well. Good animation, good story, and it brought back memories (as I said in my first post in this topic, I saw the original Awakening arc as a kid). I'm interested in seeing what happens as the show goes. I probably won't get on to other episodes till Friday or so at the earliest. Too much school work for my own good.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Cool. Keep this thread alive and comment as you watch the show! =D
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'll try and dig this thread up when I have more comments. Hopefully I remember though and have something interesting to say.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
When I first played Halo 2, I thought the voice of the Arbiter sounded suspiciously familiar. So I went to IMDb, and lo and behold, he was Goliath!
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Does Greg talk about the new comic? Or should I just look it up? Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Oh this is sort of interesting. On the questions page, they talk about the whole Augustus Caesar thing and why the clothes turn to stone. It says that whatever the gargoyles consider theirs (like clothing) turns to stone with them (or at least that was how it was defined on the page). With that idea in mind, would it be possible to bring other stuff into the stone sleep? Like if for example one of the gargoyles considered a human to be theirs, would the human go into the stone sleep as well? That opens some interesting paths in my mind.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
LOL pfresh =D
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Does Greg talk about the new comic? Or should I just look it up?
There's some neat stuff on there. Makes me more interested in the series, which is always a good thing.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Okay, I've watched episodes 6 and 7 now as well. Episode 6 was decent, but a lot of it was obvious. Episode 7 brought up a question though. In Episode 7, Demona uses a spell to control Goliath. When she flees (due to Brooklyn gaining control over Goliath), she takes some pages with her, and Brooklyn can't find the pages that say how to reverse the spell. So Elisa comes up with a makeshift solution. She takes control of Goliath and orders him to act as if I were not under a spell, and so Goliath seems more or less normal again. The thing is though that really didn't break the spell. So doesn't that mean that the possibility is still out there for someone to take the pages and control Goliath again? A possible solution to this would be to burn the pages, so that no one else could take control (and I'd assume that Goliath would follow whatever was the last order given to him). Of course maybe that solution would kill Goliath. Who knows. It just seems kind of like another thing left hanging.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Actually pfresh, I think Eliza ordered him to act as if he weren't under a spell..forever. Ergo, the original spell wouldn't apply...
edit: except in insuring other spells don't take effect on him...
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
That is interesting. It seems possible that that could innoculate him from future spells. Since this spell is still in effect and it tells him to act as if he weren't under a spell forever, it seems like a more recent spell would have no effect. Any thoughts?
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
But see that's not the same as removing the spell. He is acting as if there is no spell, but the spell is still there. Since it is still there, that means that he could still be ordered around (since I'd assume new orders have precedence over old orders).
EDIT: This would mean of course that the people would have to first know that he was under a spell (hard to know since he acts like he isn't) and would have to obtain the pages to control him. I still think it's quite possible though.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Eliza specified that he was to act that way forever (as in, regardless of any other orders). I think that would take precendence since it gives instructions as to what to do with future orders.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't think it works that way though. If it did work that way, why wouldn't Demona just say "You will obey my commands only for the rest of your life" when she first did it? She had time (since Brooklyn was confused). I think this was just a work around the writers came up with.
EDIT: Also Elisa never mentions orders. She just says "Act for the rest of your life as if you were not under a spell." That to me means that he won't ever seem like he's under a spell; he will be himself. He is still under a spell though and should take orders (whether he is acting as if he is under the spell or not). I guess the whole word I'm basing my argument on is the word "act".
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I think that to act like you're not under a spell, you would have to not take orders. But we're getting pretty nitpicky. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Yeah, it is nitpicky. Oh well. At least it kept the thread alive for a little longer.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: I don't think it works that way though. If it did work that way, why wouldn't Demona just say "You will obey my commands only for the rest of your life" when she first did it? She had time (since Brooklyn was confused). I think this was just a work around the writers came up with.
EDIT: Also Elisa never mentions orders. She just says "Act for the rest of your life as if you were not under a spell." That to me means that he won't ever seem like he's under a spell; he will be himself. He is still under a spell though and should take orders (whether he is acting as if he is under the spell or not). I guess the whole word I'm basing my argument on is the word "act".
I think your head will explode when time travel pops up in the show.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
My head is prone to time travel-related explosions. Too many holes in all that stuff.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Which is why you always call for suspension of disbelief. Holes are irrelevant if the overall story is good. =D
Plus you don't want to sound like the comicbookstoreguy.
Wait...we post on a sci-fi author's forum.
We're all comicbookstoreguy.
Nevermind.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well see, I'm all for suspension of disbelief. At the same time, I want any kind of writer's to be consistent in their work. Like the flying example from the first place. If the writer says the gargoyles can't fly, then I never expect them to fly and I may get confused and irritated when I see them flying. Now holes in stories are a little differently, because they aren't really contradictions but just information that is left out (and that we have to make random guesses at). [/comicbookguy]
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: Well see, I'm all for suspension of disbelief. At the same time, I want any kind of writer's to be consistent in their work. Like the flying example from the first place. If the writer says the gargoyles can't fly, then I never expect them to fly and I may get confused and irritated when I see them flying. Now holes in stories are a little differently, because they aren't really contradictions but just information that is left out (and that we have to make random guesses at). [/comicbookguy]
Well, I think in Gargoyles the series creator and his writers were very big on consistency but in a real clever way. For instance, most serial type shows tend to promise a payoff. Gargoyles rarely made such promises yet its central story would consistently progress while delivering a fair amount of surprises. One of these, for instance, has to do with the poor motorcycle fellow Lexington glides by in "Awakening" who gets scared and crashes his bike. A little incident, you would think, and yet later on in season 2 this poor guy comes for revenge against the Gargoyles. Apparently, he was also on the airship and was one of the humans knocked out by Demona, and the Gargoyles have again and again accidently messed with him. We don't consider his perspective until this late in the game--and you sort of feel sorry for him. It's those little things that made the program special--its affinity for returning to seemingly irrelavent characters and considering their perspective.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
King of the High Elves!
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.