I jsut finished the peoples of middle earth for the second time and the whole glorfindel conspiracy still bothers me. All i ask is that some of my fellow tolkein fans share their veiws and help me out on this one. I'm not sure what to think.
[ August 04, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Little_Doctor ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Or check out, I drek you not, "Middle Earth for Dummies."
-Trevor
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
haha. i'll look into it. Does it have info. in it that i couldn't find in one of tolkein's histories of middle earth?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I read that it was originaly just a mistake usuing the same name twice.....and many years apart within the story. Then Tolkien realized the mistake, and came up with a story to expalin it, a story that didn't really fit well within his own cosmology.
[ August 04, 2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Truthfully, I couldn't even begin to guess. I suspect it's more of a who's who and what's what in the Tolkien universe.
I'm not that much of a fanatic - well, not at all, truth be told.
I just found the notion of the book to be way, way too funny.
-Trevor
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Kwea- Thanks, i read soemwhere that he had decided they were one and the same but i was never sure what to think about it.
TMedina- In that case maybe I will pick it up. It might be good to have a reference book to look at instead of the actual reading.
Edit: spelling
[ August 03, 2004, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Little_Doctor ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Give it a thumb-through in the store and decide if you find it worthwhile.
That's the best way to decide if a book is interesting enough for you to gamble taking home.
-Trevor
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The thing to keep in mind is that Tolkien was working-at ever slower paces-on LotR and the Silmarillion until his death. There were many revisions, major revisions, that he had in mind but simply grew too old (according to his own letters) to make. Glorfindel was one, and among the biggest was a drastic change in the history of Galadriel. Heck, he didn't even actually finish the Silmarillion before dying; his son, Christopher, did that.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I think it is perfectly normal for names, especially famous ones, to be used again and again.
The name Boromir, for example, was used more than once in the Numenorean rulers.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Kwea, last I looked your link wasn't quite right--it needed a repair on the "http" part.
As for repeating names--humans do that because we don't live very long. Would elves do that, considering they're (normally) immortal? "No, not that Galadriel...Galadriel my youngest sister's niece!"
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Sure. I have two brothers that share names with uncles of mine. The are all alive, and I sometimes have to ask which one is beeing referred to.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I've always understood it the way Kwea explained it, due to the reasons Rakeesh mentioned.
In other words, I have nothing new to add.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Doesn't seem to bother me too much. We have two possibilities.
1.) Glorfindel is the name for two High Elves. One that was killed on Gondolin and another of the same name that came to live in Rivendell.
2.) There was only one Glorfindel who was killed, reborn in Valinor, and was sent back (like the Wizards) to help out.
Both work for me, but I think I like #2 best. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
We do know that Glorfindel in the Fellowship of the Ring was an elf lord of great power and stature. It makes more sense to me to believe he was the same as the Glorfindel who fell in Gondolin.
One of the very cool things about Tolkien's universe is that you get hints of things that you don't ever quite understand fully. It's a real place, Middle Earth is. Real worlds have loose ends left untied. Maybe there is some entire story which we will never know that explains why Mandos should send Glorfindel back to Middle Earth. Maybe Tolkien just didn't live long enough to dream of that one and tell it.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:As for repeating names--humans do that because we don't live very long. Would elves do that, considering they're (normally) immortal? "No, not that Galadriel...Galadriel my youngest sister's niece!"
lol... good point. But in Glorfindel's case, if the original one died in Gondolin, it should be ok for a subsequent elf to get that name again. It's not like they're going to run into each other at cocktail parties...
quote:Maybe Tolkien just didn't live long enough to dream of that one and tell it.
Maybe he just ran out of pipe weed that day. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I fixed the link, so now it goes right to the page adressing this topic.
Tolkien often said that he felt that he was "discovering" a new world rather than writing one, and it kept growing beyond his wildest expectations even during his own lifetime. So it was not unusual for him to "find" new information that further "enlightened" him.
Kwea
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Yeah, like he said when he met Strider in the inn at Bree he had no more idea who he was than did Frodo.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Yep....that is one example of how the story grew....also, consider that he thought that the real work being done was the Similirion, not LOTR....LOTR was the end of a very long story (or group of stories), but not the phenominon it has become.
The Sil was never finished before Tolkien died, so it had not gone through final revisions at that point. Chris Tolkien edited it with quite a bit of help from Guy Gavriel Kay, and they put it out....but they never really knew what form it would have taken if JRR had done it himself.
Of course there is the fact that JRR didn't ever think it would be released either....he didn't think it would be possible.
And the Sil is where the first Glorfindal's story is from....
Kwea
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Christopher Tolkien has expressed some regret about how he did parts of the Silmarilion.
For example, he has said that he thinks he should have said that is was the red book, a compilation of elven tales done by Frodo.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
You know what else makes me think? He said he didn't know who strider was at the time he was writing about him. but at some point he decided to make him a main character and all that. The part that makes me wonder is that he somehow concluded that aragorn should be in his mid 80's at the time of WR (war of the ring).
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Well, the Dunedain were long lived, and he is a distant descendant of Elros, so he has elven blood.
Not surprising he would be that old, he had seen a done a lot before the events of Fellowship, it might have been a bit incredulous had he supposedly done all that in his early 20's, KWIM?
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
All of what you have said is true. But 80 year olds don't become the strong rugged hero of an epic tale. haha. Just ignore my ramblings please, i'm very tired.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Why do you think the immortal elves had so few children, for example Elrond with two sons and a daughter ina couple of thousand years. Shucks me and my wife managed that in 7 years!! Never seemed logical to me...
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Many long-lived species produce children quite slowly, so that they don't overpopulate their home. Believe it or not, humans reproduce this way, despite our considerable numbers. Short-lived species tend to have many babies at once--rats might have a dozen babies, but few of them will survive to adulthood and even those that do don't live more than a year or two.
Since elves are immortal, if they had children at the same rate as humans, they'd be SRO in a couple hundred years. Keeping the birth rate low may be a conscious choice, or it could be that they're just generally infertile.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Point of geek order: Elves are not actually immortal. They will live as long as Middle-Earth lasts. Beyond that, though, no one knows what happens to them.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Aragorn was given the lifespan of the Numenoreans, which was thrice that of lesser humans (like us). So his lifespan would be roughly 9 score years and 30, or 210 years, right? At 80 he was in full maturity, but still a young man. A little over 1/3 his full lifespan. That corresponds to late 20s in one of us. If you add in the fact that the actual skin weathering and so on would have been extreme, then you realize that he looked about the right age as played by a 46 year old actor. Not only had Aragorn's skin been through 80 years of life, but it was an extremely rough 80 years, traveling the wilds, fighting alongside warriors of Rohan and Gondor under different names, and so on.
One thing I disliked about the movies is that they showed Aragorn's character incorrectly, in that they showed him as reluctant to take up the quest and the burden of fighting against Sauron and returning his line to kingship over humans in Middle Earth. This is slander. Aragorn from his earliest youth (he grew up in Rivendell with Elrond) was an enemy of Sauron and embraced his destiny.
He first fell in love with Arwen when he was in his early 20s, and she was over 1000 years old. At that time everyone shook their heads and gave him zero chance with her. When he was in his 40s they met again in Lothlorien and she beheld him in the fullness of manhood and returned his love. They pled their troth there, pledging their lives to the fight against the darkness. Elrond was grieved because it meant he would lose her after what would seem to him like a very short time. Arwen was something like 1200 years old when she and Aragorn married. She never considered almost leaving or anything of the sort, during the war of the ring. She was actively fighting behind the scenes the whole time, and would never have left him.
Anyway, saying Aragorn was an 80 year old man really doesn't tell the story. He had the lifespan of the Numenoreans. In fact, Denethor and Aragorn were almost the exact same age. In Denethor the Numenorean strain was also quite strong, as it was in his son Faramir, but not so much in Boromir. Just Denethor was aged before his time and worn out in his struggles against the Enemy in the Palantir.
[ August 04, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I love the story of Aragorn and Arwen because it echoes the story of Beren and Luthien, and both of them could be considered mythic retellings of the story of Tolkien and his wife Edith. They met and fell in love, though he was younger than she, they had to wait a long time and went through great trials and difficulties but eventually they married. She was his Luthien, he said. Luthien and Arwen as described in the books both looked very like her, with fair skin, long dark curly hair, and gray eyes.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know, JRR Tolkien had the word Luthien inscribed on his wife's tombstone.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Now that caneither be taken as a very good thing or a very bad thing form the wifes perspective.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Rhaegar, how could it be bad? I don't see that angle.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Anyone have a link to a picture of Tolkein's wife, especially when she was in her 20s or 30s? I'm really curious to see if she looks the way I've imagined Arwen and Luthien looking.
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
quote: JRR Tolkien had the word Luthien inscribed on his wife's tombstone.
*wipes tear* Wow, that's so sweet!
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Noemon, I've never seen a picture of her, and google doesn't turn up one either.
[ August 04, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I haven't been able to turn one up via google either, but then yesterday I proved that I might not be the most effective user of search engines that ever walked the planet.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Cool! Thanks Anne Kate, that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
That isn't exactly how I pictured Arwen or Luthien either one--I imagined somewhat sharper features, especially the nose. Interestingly, if you gave her a dark blonde wig, that would be *very* similar to how I've always imagined Rosie Cotton.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Does she match your image of Luthien? I think she does mine pretty closely.
(Edit: now would like to see a drawing of how Noemon pictures Luthien.)
[ August 04, 2004, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I wish I could draw well enough to create a portrait of Luthien, but I can't. I think, though, that my mental image of Tolkein's elves is generally informed by a calendar I had when I was about 4 that had paintings of scenes from LOTR and the Silmarillion. In general I picture his elves as being tall, gracefully slender beings with almost translucently pale skin and dark hair, generally with very sharp, angular features. Eyes the color of twilight.
You know, I had an enormous crush on Galadriel as a four year old, based partly on her depicition in LOTR, and partly on the calendar's depiction of her giving Frodo the phial.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Galadriel is very cool. I really dislike her as protrayed in the movie by that actress, though. I heard her do an interview not long afterward, too, and she was like making FUN of elves and Tolkien. Ugh! She was a big mistake. I also think Elrond was miscast. The rest of the casting was excellent, though.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You too? I also had a crush on Galadriel. I kept a picture of her (the pencil drawing done by Angus McBride found in the book Middle Earth Role Playing) in my wallet.
*hangs his head in geeky shame*
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Back to the elf children thing - elves don't really desire to reproduce and such the way humans do. Tolkien described it as being a very brief period in their long lives (the period in which they are interested in having a family) the rest of the time they are content. In other words, they don't have the same drive to further the species that human folk do. Makes sense, they don't need to, since they don't die. The species will go on, whether they have children or no. In fact, Tolkien said many elves never have children.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
I didn't like her as galadriel either. She jsut didn't have that "elf" quality in my eyes. Neither did elrond. Liv Tyler did an exellent job though.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's funny Porter! My brother had a crush on Valkyrie from Marvel's Avengers comic at around the same time. I guess you and I just went for a higher class of fictional character.
Yay geekdom!
Yeah, the actress who played Galadriel seemed wrong for the part to me as well. Part of that was the whole "Galadriel as Large Marge" bit when she's offered the ring, but even without that she wouldn't have seemed right to me. Out of curiosity, who *would* you have cast in the role?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
In fact, Tolkien said that the elves generally have almost no drive about anything. They live a very long time, but most of it is spent just kinda existing, almost the equivalent of spendin all your time playing video games and smoking pot.
There are a few exceptions, which are the stories that you find in The Silmarilion.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Noemon-
I was thinking aobut who i would caast in her place, but i couldn't find any matches. To me, the outstanding beauty that tolkein describes her as raised my expectations as to what she should look like in the movie. i'm sure that there someone out there that makes everyone's jaw drop with awe. Thats the one I would have picked.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I dunno - I kinda liked Agent Smith as Elrond.
My only general gripe about the elves - would it have killed them to add just a touch of digital tweaking?
They look like humans wearing Vulcan ears. Which, let's face it - that's what they were. But given the degree of effort put forth in other areas of the film, giving non-humans a non-human appearance should have been a given.
-Trevor
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Cool call trevor! That's what i was trying to say, i just couldn't find the words. lol They should have been more..er...mysterious?mystical?. Something like that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: would it have killed them to add just a touch of digital tweaking?
I just don't see that turning out well at all.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
That's just it - I'm not sure what could have been done, but I think _something_ would have been nice.
Throughout the entire trilogy, I kept thinking..."oh look, a Trek convention."
-Trevor
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Actually, the Elves do have drive about things: creation and art, mostly. And some of them had serious drive about things like warfare and hatred, too.
The trouble with Elves, though (among many others, according to Tom D ), is that they don't change, yet the world does. Often-from their perspective-for the worse. And so they end up trying to preserve, trying to hold on to 'the good old days', since they have a clear memory of tgod and lived them.
Also, bear in mind that the Elves met in LotR were many millenia after their heyday in Middle-Earth. In the First Age-longer than the Second or the Third, and possibly both put together, I can't remember-it was the Elves who were the big movers and shakers, and in the Second Age, the Elves were perhaps 1/2 and 1/2 with Men.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Mr. Head - I'd have liked to see what the result was, perhaps in a dry-run before saying yea or nay.
But as the elves were presented, I just wasn't impressed.
Of course, I wasn't all that enchanted with the trilogy overall, so take my grousing with a grain of salt.
-Trevor
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:One thing I disliked about the movies is that they showed Aragorn's character incorrectly, in that they showed him as reluctant to take up the quest and the burden of fighting against Sauron and returning his line to kingship over humans in Middle Earth. This is slander. Aragorn from his earliest youth (he grew up in Rivendell with Elrond) was an enemy of Sauron and embraced his destiny.
quote:Part of that was the whole "Galadriel as Large Marge" bit when she's offered the ring
Amen. Actually, I think PJ did a pretty poor job with his interpretations of most of the characters. Some of them he got mostly right, but still robbed them of--in my opinion--crucial moments. Others were just plain wrong. I think Boromir was about the only character I was completely satisfied with, with Gandalf and Gollum as close seconds.
And may I just say, Jake, that I think that was a truly awesome pop culture reference.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Boromir was the man! Well, one of the few humans able to kill orcs, goblins and Uruk-Hai.
-Trevor
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::bows deeply::
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think, of all the characters, the films nailed Boromir the best, too.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
And for pity's sake - what self-respecting adventurer doesn't carry rope when walking into a dungeon?
-Trevor
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
i always pictured boromir being bigger that what they portrayed. By that i mean more muscular and powerful. But I was very satisfied with the character anyway.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Snicker.
Things to do when I fall off a bridge and I end up clinging to the shattered edge:
1. Scream at the top of my lungs, "Come pull me up, you <rude Elvish phrases>!"
-Trevor
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Here is an article I compiled from several different sources talking about the nature of the spirits of Elves and Humans and why the Elves that remain in our mortal world seem more interested in just existing rather than the energetic Elves of the Ages of the Trees or the First Age of the Sun... and why the Rings of Power project was started...
quote: "...the longevity of the Quendi[Elves] was derived primarily from their fëar[souls], whose nature or 'doom' was to abide in Arda[Earth] until its end. Therefore, after the vitality of the hröa[body] was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fëa, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fëa as it were consumed the hröa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.
But in Aman[Valinor], since its blessing descended upon the hröa of the Eldar[another name for the Elves], as upon all other bodies, the hröa aged only apace with the fëar, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyond our mortal comprehension."
Text XI Myths Transformed
***
This does not necessarily mean that Men would live forever - they might live longer (or not cf the example of Lúthien :the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end; for the flame of the beauty of Lúthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.) as do the creatures of Aman (all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.), but despite a possible prolongation of life, the fëar of Men was not intended for eternal life within Arda. [As this was a post-Lord of the Rings essay, the Valian year was 144 years of the Sun. Thus a human body in Aman might be able to live for up to 144 times its Natural span in Middle-earth] However this is not as straight-forward as it appears. Tolkien addresses the possibility of Men dwelling in Aman in the continuation of the cited text:Quote: But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men.* What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a [Valian] year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëar? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë[King of the gods/Valar] himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru Iluvatar[God] that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëar and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hröa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hröa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.
Now these things are but matters of thought, and might-have-beens; for Eru and the Valar under Him have not permitted Men as they are to dwell in Aman. Yet at least it may be seen that Men in Aman would not escape the dread of death, but would have it in greater degree and for long ages. And moreover, it seems probable that death itself, either in agony or horror, would with Men enter into Aman itself. * [Footnote] Or (as some Men hold) that their hröar are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of Melkor over and above the general marring of Arda, and that this hurt could be healed and undone in Aman.
Myths Transformed, Text XI, Aman, HOME X, Morgoth's Ring.
Thus at best, the animal nature of the human hröa would dominate the entrapped fëa and the 'prolonged' Man would live as a beast; or else he would either die in agony or his hröa would live as a mindless shell after his fëa abandoned it. This would not apply to Tuor, who had his 'kind' changed by the express action of Eru; or the Ringbearers, who would eventually choose to accept the Gift of Ilúvatar with estel long before their fëar and hröar became 'disunited'.
[The Akallabêth, it must be remembered, is a Númenórean text, and thus (to my mind) of lesser credibility than JRRT writing as Editor and Redactor of all available Middle-earth lore, as he does in his Essays. Thus while Elendil might record in that work:Quote: The Eldar reported these words to the Valar, and Manwë was grieved, seeing a cloud gather on the noontide of Númenor. And he sent messengers to the Dúnedain, who spoke earnestly to the King, and to all who would listen, concerning the fate and fashion of the world.
'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'
'Akallabêth, The Silmarillion,
[ August 04, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You do realize, of course, that no elves actually exist, right? Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Blasphemey! (spelling?) Of course elves exist you silly fool.
[ August 04, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Little_Doctor ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was very pleased with how they did Sam, but was bitterly dissapointed at the stuff they left out for his character.
[ August 04, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
On the Galadriel issue, I think Cate did a great job! Galadriel was the only force holding Sauron at bay, at least on the magic/psychic level (Gondor was holding him back on a military level). She is a Third Generation High Elf after all of royal blood with a Ring of Power... she's almost a demi-god at this point.
Galadriel needed to be shown as a powerful ethereal figure. Of course the Galadriel goes nuclear scene is up for debate...
The look of her for the movie is great too. Pale skin and great hair and those eyes! Super cool. Cate shows the true authority that Lady Galadriel has.
[ August 04, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
The answers on the elf reproduction question cleared that up for me, dunno why I didn't think of those reasons myself. Never mind it was a minor gripe. This is what bugged me in the movies: First and foremost - pointy ears on the elves!!! I can't find anywhere in tolkien where it says they had those ears. Second, the silly way they all marched into Helm's Deep, like toy soldiers. I didn't like Cate Blanchett at first, but she was one of the oldest living things in Middle Earth, so eventually I thought that she had the right amount of gravitas for that,as opposed to Gandalf, for example, who was more a man of the people, so to speak.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There was quite a big uproar in the Tolkien geek crowd when it was revealed that Peter Jackson was putting pointy ears on the elves.
But that pales in comparison to the question "Do balrogs have wings?" question.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Let the self proclaimed Tolkien scholar and geek-boy help!
Tolkien DID say the Elves had pointy ears. Well... the actual quote is that they are "leaf shaped"... but it's about the same thing.
But Tolkien didn't make too much of a deal about ears. To him the eyes were most important. It looked like reflected stars in their eyes (you can really see this in the Galadriel scenes). And of course the High Elves had a glow about them, residue from the Uttermost West.
Now, even though I'm a purist I'm also a pragmatist. I enjoyed the Elves at Helm's Deep as it reflected the themes from the Silmarillion. And I thought the Elves marching into Helm's Deep was really cool ....why? Because to me it showed their cultural superiority and how advanced they are over the fallen civilizations of Man.
And so called Balrog debate? Pha... If people would just read the book they would see that the Balrog DID have wings.
quote:The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were spread from wall to wall ; but still Gandalf could still be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Isn't Balrog the boxer in Street Fighter II?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Tolkien's description of elven ears were that they were "leaf-shaped" So he definitely made mention of the fact that their ears were different from humans.
I think pointy ears makes sense, unless you want them to have ears shaped like a maple leaf.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
[tangent]
I understand that in a previous version of Street Fighter 2, or perhaps in the planning, the boxer's name was originally M. Bison and the final boss's name was Balrog, but the names were swapped because M. Bison was too close to M. Tyson.
[/tangent]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
C'mon Telp, it's not taht simple. If that passage were cut and dry, no one would be arguing the question.
Many people (myself included) think that's a metaphor referring to the shadow he cast, which in an earlier passage was described as having wings.
And, Tolkien was a master linguist, why use a metaphor of wings when the thing really had wings - why not just mention his winged shadow literally?
Then there's the description somewhere of the balrogs running or charging - obviously not flying though.
We're never given an indication that the Balrog can fly - if he did, why didn't he just fly when the bridge crumbled beneath him? And if he doesn't fly, of what use is there for him to have wings?
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Oooh, cool, saxon!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
IIRC correctly, there *is* a reference of Balrogs flying into battle, but it's phrased in such a way that you cold interpret it as "flying with wings" or "running really fast".
Of course, there's also anough lee-way to flame others for days on end about how they aren't smart enough to agree with you. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
They renamed Bison to Balrog??? Weirdness...
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Well, why do flamingos need wings? and chickens?
Wings made the balrog seem more menacing. Flaming wings of death those were. wings made him seem like more of a demon, which i liked a lot. he wouldn't be the same without them. I'm not sure if he can fly but wings are necessary anyway in my mind.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
yeah but they didn't look REAL when they marched in to Helm's Deep. It was just too artificial for me. However, I'm very forgiving, and the realities of having to tell and depict in a completely different medium, and to early 21st century (as opposed to mid-20th) sensibilities, and to eyes not familiar with the stories necessarily, enabled me to basically ignore those things. Plus, the rest of the things in the movies were done so well. I LOVED the Balrog! For me, in the books, the two most powerful scenes were Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen, when the Nazgul were calling him to come to Mordor, and Gollum at the Cracks of Doom. Incredibly powerful. My favourite description of the elves is in the last part of the Appendix on the Eldar, where Tolkien gives a wonderful final summarising description of them, can't quote it, but I love it.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
In the Silmarillion the Balrogs fly to Melkor when he is being attacked by Ungoliant. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote: My favourite description of the elves is in the last part of the Appendix on the Eldar, where Tolkien gives a wonderful final summarising description of them, can't quote it, but I love it.
Yah... it makes me cry... Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
The man just writs so beautifully.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:For me, in the books, the two most powerful scenes were Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen, when the Nazgul were calling him to come to Mordor, and Gollum at the Cracks of Doom. Incredibly powerful.
So, did the movie depiction of Frodo at the Ford upset you? It upset me immensely. It's upsetting me right now as I'm thinking of it.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
How was it different? I couldn't get through the LOTR books. Sorry, don't hate me.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Didn't upset me, more disappointment that they changed the Ford scene to involve Arwen more (but, hey the more Arwen on screen the better!). I thought Ralph Bakshi did the Ford scene really well though. The Cracks of Doom scene was okay. I was also looking forward to the Mouth of Sauron, but no Mouth ...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
At least it wasn't as bad as the ford scene in this movie. I've read the books about 5 times, and I still can't follow that scen in the movie.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:How was it different? I couldn't get through the LOTR books. Sorry, don't hate me.
In the novel, Frodo races ahead of the group (I think because Glorfindel tells the horse to run) when the Nazgul arrive. He gets to the Ford of the Bruinen just ahead of the Nazgul, crosses, and stops on the other side. The Nazgul halt before crossing, calling to Frodo to come to them. Frodo fells the compulsion from them and from the Ring, and he is terribly weak--dying, in fact. Yet, somehow, he manages to call up some inner reserve of strength and draws his sword defiantly, telling the Nazgul that they shall have neither the Ring nor him. He is subsequently knocked unconscious by the Nazgul--who also break his sword--and then is saved by Gandalf and Elrond, who call up the river to drown the Nazgul.
In the film version, Arwen carries the semi-conscious Frodo on her horse, racing ahead when the Nazgul arrive. They chase her across the Ford, where she incants some sort of spell as she crosses. She then draws her sword and stands against the Nazgul--although I think that since she has already spoken her spell this is largely done to lure the Nazgul into the river, which she has enchanted to drown them. Frodo succumbs to the knife point in his wound just as the Nazgul are drowning, and Arwen cries about it.
Taking the moment of strength away from Frodo and turning him into a victim that needs to be cared for is unforgivable, in my opinion.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
That's how I saw him through all the movies. It annoyed me and I hadn't even read the books.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:At least it wasn't as bad as the ford scene in this movie. I've read the books about 5 times, and I still can't follow that scen in the movie.
Porter, that is the Ralph Bakshi version. You know, the Bakshi film gets all kinds of criticism, but I think that Bakshi actually did a better job of sticking to the spirit of the story. His actors were not as good, and the animation was kind of hokey, but I think he was at least paying attention to the story.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Oops. I missed your reference.
While that movie may have been truer to the books on a point-by-point basis, it fails in one major way:
It was not enjoyable.
And *that* is unforgivable to me.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Well I thought Bakshi did a good job with the Ford scene.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
The scene with Arwen and Elrond in the second movie, where he's challenging her about marrying Aragorn, and asks her if she doesn't love him (Elrond)too, and she runs to him and says she does love him, gets me every time. I have a daughter who married a lovely guy from California (they live in Utah), and I can relate to Elrond big-time in that scene. It's a dimension that isn't really looked at in the books, Elrond losing his only daughter.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:It was not enjoyable.
::shrug:: Well, I enjoy it, but that may have a lot to do with the fact that I was around 8 (±2) when I first saw it.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Belle - we don't know if the wings were ornamental or functional.
We also don't know if there was enough room for the balrog to fully unfurl his wings (assuming they were indeed functional).
However, I'd be happy to share my rant about Leggy watching while Gandalf grew bored with hanging on to the bridge and let go.
-Trevor
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Here, from the Grey Havens, a very cool Tolkien web site.... Flying Balrogs
Just because something runs doesn't mean they can't fly....the 2 aren't mutually exclusive...
I really liked Galadrial, but unlike most of you I thought the scene with her and Frodo in the grotto was perfect....just how I imagined it. That is one of my favorite scenes in the books too, and I thought it was true to the spirit of the books, and to a large extent to the actual description of what happened.
I can find a lot of thing I DIDN'T like about the movies (can anyone say Scouring of the Shire? According to Tolkien, it was the most important chapter he had written....), but the 2 criticisms I can't stand are about this scene and the scene with Bilbo in Rivendale.
Both people change, and almost succumb to the One Rings power, although for different reasons....the ring exerts itself very differently with those who have borne it or another Ring of Power, and I think the movies did a great job showing that.
Kwea
[ August 04, 2004, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Both people change, and almost succumb to the One Rings power, although for different reasons....the ring exerts itself very differently with those who have borne it or another Ring of Power, and I think the movies did a great job showing that.
My gripe with the scene in Rivendell is not that Bilbo was tempted by the Ring. My problem is that that scene contains one of the most poignant lines in the entire trilogy, and PJ left it out. In the novel, Bilbo wants the Ring, but he masters himself--with difficulty--and tells Frodo to put it away. This is crucial, in my opinion. It shows again how much more strength and character a humble hobbit might have than a noble man or elf. And every time I read the part where Bilbo asks, "Don't adventures ever have an end?" it puts a little lump in my throat. I don't get that from the scene as Jackson portrayed it.
Obviously Jackson needed to show Bilbo being tempted by the Ring, but I think it was wrong of him to take away Bilbo's moment of strength. Throughout the films, Jackson takes nearly every opportunity to take a moment of strength for a hobbit and give it to a human or elf. It's mind-boggling to me why he would do that.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
The hobbit strength comes from the friendship and loyalty of the halfings to each other.
And Frodo has a moment or two of personal determination - but PJ has always viewed the series as a triumph of the collective, focusing on loyalty and friendship.
As to the Council of Elrond, my favorite scene is still with Jack Black and Sarah Michelle Gellar.
-Trevor
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
If Balrogs could fly, how were the eagles able to hide Gondolin with their air defense? Wouldn't Melkor send out his Balrogs flying all over Middle Earth to find this troublesome country?
Eagles might be a match for Ringwraiths, but against a flying Balrog...
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I thought Balrogs were generals in the last war?
And don't underestimate the swooping ability of an eagle to nail a balrog from behind and clip it's wings.
-Trevor
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm very sorry that I brought up the balrog issue.
*hangs head in shame*
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
It's all good - at least it was on topic for the thread. More or less.
-Trevor
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
When I think about Balrog vs. Egale, I'm reminded of that scene in Mulan where Mushu toasted the Falcon with his firey breath: Toast turkey anyone? Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
See, now you have done it....you have made me break out my red book and quote....
quote: To his amazement he found that he was no longer looking at Bilbo; a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and and through it he found himself eying a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him.
I agree that in the book Bilbo was stronger, but how else would PJ be able to emphasized the power that the Ring still had over Bilbo. I always got the feeling that Bilbo was on the verge of taking the Ring there, but that Frodo stopped him. The movie just exaggerated it ...and not really that much. Bilbo still stopped, and realized the power of the Ring.......
I found one of the things I didn't like about the movies was the infantilism of the hobbits. In the books, hobbits were every bit as brave and intelligent as huimans...perhaps more so even, as they were always at a physical disadvantage against others. In the movies they were comical relief. Merry and Pippen planned with Sam to follow Frodo, as they had figured out that something was up.....but in the movies they fell into the adventure by accident, simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They survived the Barrows and the Old Forest, although they had a lot of help, but that showed how resilient they were and how they were taking an active role in their own survival.
In the movies, they don't really ever come into their own until the last movie, and even then things had to be fabricated to show their newfound maturity. Who scaled a tower to light the beacons? I forgot that...lol....and so did Tolkien, I guess..
I understand that they couldn't show everything, and I feel that they did a great job in trying to keep the same flavor as the books....
But how much more would it have cost to have Glamdring glow in the Mines of Moria?
Kwea
PS all spellig erors r mine
[ August 04, 2004, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If you are going to gripe about a noble race being reduced to comic relief, I'd start with the dwarves instead.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
No kidding.
Although I will forgive every last bit of comic relief at Gimli's expense for the one crowning line in RotK.
-Trevor
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
That still only counts as one? Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Bingo!
That one line made up for the entire movie.
-Trevor
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
lol... I love that one too.
A close second is from a deleted scene in Two Towers, where Aragorn stares suspiciously at the "soup" Eowyn made him.
I can picture the thought bubbles percolating over Aragorn's head: "I've traveled countless dangerous roads, and slayed numerous deadly foes... and yet, my life will end, not in battle, but in the digestion of this freaking soup this woman gave me."
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*offers Beren a bowl of homemade soup*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I always got a bit of humor from Glimi, even in the books. But the movies went a bit far there too.
However, LOTR isn't really about any of the eldar races, but about hobbits and men.....so I stand by my gripe...
The Eldar races were all failing at that time, while humans were becomming asendant..
[ August 04, 2004, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I have to agree that I didn't like Frodo and the other hobbits being cast in the perpetual light of victimiztion and inability to be their own movers and shakers (despite Galadriel's "little person" speech) but I really DID like Arwen's made up statement:
"If you want him, come and claim him."
Feminists unite!
That would have been one heck of a fight if you ask me!
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
adn somehow Tolkien "forgot" to put that one in too....good thing PJ is here to save the day....
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Hi Shan!
I remember someone on Hatrack wrote a wonderful posting about how Aragorn's love for Arwen gave him the strength to resist the Ring, and how PJ's treatment of Arwen is a faithful representation of that theme, and not a distortion of Arwen's importance.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That would have to be pretty convincing to convince me.
That being said, I don't see how he could have made it accurate to Tolkien and not cheese off modern audiences. After all, Arwen didn't really do anything except be beautiful and sew.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Actually, I'm a little upset that her sewing didn't make it to the movie. The breaking of Aragorn's standard on the pirate ships is my favorite part of the book. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I don't watch enough movies to know whom to cast as Galadriel and Elrond that would have been better. They both LOOKED right (hair, makeup, costumes, features) but I didn't think either of them acted right. Maybe there isn't anyone. I don't know.
I absolutely loved Boromir too. He was a way better character in the movie than the book. I also loved Eowyn and Eomer both. Excellent jobs from both of them.
Balrogs of course have wings, but they are made of SHADOW. Their wings are made of a shadowy substance and not flesh. I can't believe there's any controversy about that at all. Tolkien clearly states it. The Balrog in the movie looked GREAT. Couldn't have been better.
All visuals were great. Sets, landscapes, models. The movie looked perfect. I would not have believed anyone could come so close to my own internal vision of what everything and everyone in Middle Earth should look like. None of the Tolkien illustrators except Tolkien himself have ever managed. I was mad impressed by that.
I am unhappy overall with the storytelling. I don't like the score. Both were too sappy and sentimental, too overdramatized. Still I did enjoy the movies if only for the visuals. And I'm delighted that they rekindled my Tolkien mania which had faded. I'm also glad that JRRT won so many new fans with these movies, and that they are reprinting all his books. Now if only that one the pictures of JRRT would be reprinted I'd be completely content.
[ August 05, 2004, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I think balrogs were shadow and flame period - wings notwithstanding.
Ponders Beren's favorite scene of the standard Arwen sewed being raised and idly wonders if sewing skills are one of the things that still interest guys these days . . .
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Balrogs of course have wings, but they are made of SHADOW. Their wings are made of a shadowy substance and not flesh. I can't believe there's any controversy about that at all. Tolkien clearly states it.
Not all that clearly....and just because they could be made of shadow and flame doesn't mean that he couldn't fly with them.....the whole balrog is flame and shadow, but it is a physical being as well. Magic, by definition, doesn't have to follow the laws of physics....
That being said, I LOVED the Balrog.....I got goosebumps seeing it....and hearing Gandalf barring his way. By far the best part of the first movie....and maybe the second too...
Even better than I had pictured it....and the footage of the Balrog and Gonadal battling as they fell was amazing.
Kwea
[ August 05, 2004, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:You cannot pass
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Bah. I was fine with the bridge until Gandalf decides to let go.
It's not like the whip was still attached or the bridge was collapsing...he just...let...go.
Even Obi Wan had the decency to get served up by Vader.
-Trevor
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Shan baby, if you ever get your hands on some gems and mithril, don't bother sewing me a standard. Let's ebay that stuff and take a vacation. Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
He let go because, subconsciously, he knew he had to defeat the balrog and go thru the transformation to be fully able to carry out the rest of his mission. That's my take on it anyway. I was offended and puzzled at Gimli being made into a buffoon in the second movie, but at least part of that I can rationalise as part of the friendship between Legolas and him, the banter and putdowns that go on between good friends.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
Kwea-
Wasn't it "You Shall Not Pass" I'm an LOTR nazi
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
quote: With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered, and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss . 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and was gone.
(Page 430, LOTR, 1965 - the "authorized" edition, no less . . .
Ahhh - the movie was all I hoped for in those scenes . . . *shivers with delight*
No standard sewing! Bless you, Beren!
*breathes deep sigh of relief*
*Begins plotting vacation . . . *
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
That's true (after searching the book)...the whip IS attached!
Bad balrog. Could have killed the wizard but...noooo... tsc, tsc...it's so difficult to find good help, nowadays.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
However, in the movie, the whip does fall away and Gandalf isn't sliding or scrabbling at the bridge - he's clinging to the rock. Then, he just let go.
-Trevor
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:
quote: To his amazement he found that he was no longer looking at Bilbo; a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and and through it he found himself eying a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands. He felt a desire to strike him.
I agree that in the book Bilbo was stronger, but how else would PJ be able to emphasized the power that the Ring still had over Bilbo. I always got the feeling that Bilbo was on the verge of taking the Ring there, but that Frodo stopped him. The movie just exaggerated it ...and not really that much. Bilbo still stopped, and realized the power of the Ring.......
Kwea, I think part of our difference here is our interpretation of the very passage you quoted. I have always thought that passage was intended to be figurative. By the time Frodo meets up with Bilbo in Rivendell, eleven years have passed since they last saw each other. This puts Bilbo at 122 years old. Without the Ring, Bilbo has aged. I always saw the passage as meaning that the personality that Frodo knew and loved was swallowed by the hunger for the Ring, leaving only the wrinkled, bony, old body in its place. This is in sharp contrast to actually having Bilbo briefly turn into a Gollum-looking monster. I personally like my interpretation better than the literal one, but that's most likely because it's my interpretation.
Jackson had a lot of options available to him. Right off the bat, he's got the whole bag of tricks normally available to a director, most notably camera angle. In fact, he uses the camera quite effectively to show the Ring's hold over Frodo--using close-ups of the Ring in his hand, etc. On top of that, though, he has the huge acting talent of Ian Holm. Holm is capable of a lot as an actor, and I think it would not be beyond him at all to portray the kind of consuming hunger that I described in the previous paragraph, the sort of hunger that displaces the personality we have already sort of gotten to know by that point of the film.
That aside, though, my major gripe isn't even really that he uses special effects to make Bilbo look scary. It's the fact that Bilbo actually loses control and grabs for the Ring. He doesn't do that in the book. In the book, he masters himself before that point and then asks Frodo to put it away. In the movie, he grabs for it, misses, and then regains control of himself. He never asks Frodo to put it away, though, despite the fact that he is obviously distraught. It makes for a very different scene, in my opinion.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think the 'shadow' between them was figurative, too. The Ring is like that. I also was really irritated at the emasculation of hobbits at basically every single turn from the book where they show strength and determination, to the film where it's often reversed or at least diluted.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Little_Doctor Member Member # 6635
posted August 05, 2004 10:26 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kwea-
Wasn't it "You Shall Not Pass" I'm an LOTR nazi
Well, then perhaps you should check the actual story then, before asking....
quote: "You cannot pass," he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a servent of the Secret Fire, weilder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
pg 344 of FOTR, in the collectors edition leather bound edition.
quote: "You cannot pass!" he said. With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed.
pg 345, same edition.
Also, in the book Aragorn and Boromir were about to leap to Gandalf aid, and they would have died. It says that that is where Gandalf broke his staff and colapsed the bridge. When he did so the whip entangled him, dragging him to his knees and right to the brink....then he
quote:grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss."
I think he fell in order to carry the fight to areas that the others would not be able to go, thus insuring their saftey as best he could. He even says that they cannot fight the Balrog as it is beyond them.
quote:This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way.
Any questions?
Kwea
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
"Shall not" just seems - somehow - soooo much stronger . . . .
Like a commandment.
I can't see God saying to his naughty children:
"You can't take my name in vain" and "You can't steal, commit adultery, kill, lie, etc."
Because WHAT do naughty children do the second they are told "can't" . . . . Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
My mistake Kwea. It has been a long time since I read the books. i'n the movie thoguh, wasn't it "shall not"? Or am i making things up?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I thought it was shall as well, but something told me it wasn't.
I'll check the movie later tommorrow (Sat) adn let you know.
Kwea
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I checked the movie, and the first time he said "you cannot pass"; unfortunatly, PJ in hiw not-so-infanite wisdom changed it to "You shall not pass!" for the second and final time.
I loved that scene in the movie because it was almost perfect to what I had imagined when reading it over and over...in some ways even better.
He even had the Balrog have wings, but made them out of a shadowy substance, almost exactaly how it is written.
Now the scene bugs me.
Oh well.....
It's still pretty cool....
Kwea
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*spoiler for the EE of ROTK*
*rant on* Grrr.. for the EE they will have the Mouth of Sauron. Yay! BUT... they will have Aragorn kill him. Grrrrr... I just need to say that the killing of the Mouth of Sauron for the EE is totally disappointing and insulting. Not only does it go against the book, but it goes against Aragorn's character. You do NOT kill ambassadors! Only barbarians, murders, traitors and tyrants kill ambassadors. Talk about teaching the wrong thing and betraying the spirit of the book... *rant off*
ahh.. much better. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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I can't find anywhere in tolkien where it says they had those ears. ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
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Hi Shan!![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)