Why does it seem all girls say they like nice, smart guys but then date the dumb jerks? And why is it the guy who's dependable enough to be there when they need him, smart enough to make them smile, and caring enough to always be the shoulder to cry on, why do guys like us end up with a pat on the shoulder and "you're just like a really great big brother. Thanks."
Does the boy next door ever get the girl? Disgustingly in love Jatraqueros excluded, of course.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
sure we like you nice guys..... just as friends
FG
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Wasn't there a thread about this some time ago?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Welcome to my world, Anthro.
If you can live your life just snuggling as friends with the pretty girls and be happy, you are welcome to my life. Just sign on the dotted line! Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
(one view)
Unfortunately, I think "interesting" will initially trump "nice." And "hot" always initially trumps "nice."
Though probably the main reason is.... most guys who think they're "the nice guys," have a whole set of problems they don't notice in themselves. Maybe they're not "mean," but are emotionally needy, or unmotivated, or too easy going, or other things.
(take it with a grain of salt. I'm not targetting anyone here because I don't know anyone here well enough to evaluate like that, nor would I publicly)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'll have to go dig up that Something Positive cartoon, if I can find it. Dkw linked to it the first time around, I think.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
No, only the really hot, sexy girls date the jerks. The rest of us mortal girls like nice guys just fine. But the nice guys were always mooning after the really hot, sexy girls. [\snark]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Dabbler has a good point also. I know for me, I always liked geeks, but they had to have a certain amount of charm. If "nice guy" means "creepy guy", then no.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Actually, what happens is, girls really want the nice guys. However, they don't want the nice guys who are ALREADY nice guys. That's too easy!
Girls need to find the guys who are jerks, turn them into a project and try to change them into nice guys, and then they call me and complain about how it's not working.
(Oh, and behind the bitterness, there is a legit theory.)
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Actually, for me, how hot and sexy a girl may be is intimately related to how nice and interesting they are. My perception of their physical appearance is almost entirely subjective.
Then again, I'm not a hot and sexy guy, so I can like whoever I want. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
confident meanness trumps timid niceness
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I think the main problem is that the guys that women frequently date are lacking in certain areas, such as communication or understanding.
The "nice guys" are the guys that have these qualities, but for some reason girls still won't date them. They will turn to them for advice and friendship and comfort, but they will never think to date them.
I call this the "I-wish-I-could-find-a-guy-like-you syndrome".
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Hmmph.
Question for Telperion: Are guys like that too? Maybe I need to convert. Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
Hmmm, did anyone else read Dabbler's response as 'I don't really think there's any such thing as nice guys, just assholes and dweebs'? (no offense intended, I just felt like taking what you said to the extreme)
I think it may have something to do with evolutionary responses. In a more competitive setting, the jerks are the ones more likely to survive. It's probably only after a woman really takes the time to examine what she wants in a relationship and takes the evolutionary instinct out of the equation (at least partly), that the nice guys get a shot. Unfortunately, some women never do that, but would you want a woman like that anyway?
edited for stupid punctuation
[ August 10, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Happy Camper ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
"Nice guy" seems to be just a term for "Guys who have no idea how to communicate their feelings towards a member of the opposite sex, so they just pretend to want to be friends all the time and hide their true intentions." Like a stalker the girl actually wants around.
Grow up. Get some balls. Ask a girl out. Get rejected. Ask another girl out. Keep trying until you date someone.
Or, possibly, lower your standards.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Yeah, I used to think girls liked jerks, but now I realized girls like interesting guys. Too bad I'm about as boring as guys come.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Who was the teenage guy who posted this the last time?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: Though probably the main reason is.... most guys who think they're "the nice guys," have a whole set of problems they don't notice in themselves.
I agree with Suneun (See, there is no one I always disagree with).
I don't know if bev intended the irony, but a nice guy would not only be interested in the hot, sexy girls. Go find a girl who likes science fiction.
Then again, maybe you have a gene that helps you avoid overconcentrating the intelligence genes so that you're kids aren't autistic.
P.S. Duh... now I see the [/snark]
[ August 10, 2004, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I think Bev has a rather barbed point.
-Trevor
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I'm married to a nice guy! For me at least, I had to get to a certain point of maturity before I could appreciate all that a nice guy has to offer. I think once you get hurt a time or two by a jerk, the nice guy who's honest, kind, and caring looks pretty good. I love my nice guy; he's a nice husband and a nice father. And don't forget - even nice guys have a wild side.
space opera
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I call this the "I-wish-I-could-find-a-guy-like-you syndrome".
Dude. I don't think I have *ever* done this. And if I did, it was because the "nice guy" in question really did creep me out. He was "unhealthy" in some way, and it was scary. Whenever I got close to a decent guy, I began developing feelings for him.
And Javert, I have seen over and over and over "nice girls" passed over by their guy friends in favor of the "hot unatainable" chick. It goes both ways.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:And why is it the guy who's dependable enough to be there when they need him, smart enough to make them smile, and caring enough to always be the shoulder to cry on, why do guys like us end up with a pat on the shoulder and "you're just like a really great big brother. Thanks."
Because at the crucial moment, YOU DIDN'T ASK HER OUT! The dumb jerk did.
Duh.
---
Added: *laugh* I have to admit I read the first post, posted my response, and then read the thread. It looks like it's unanimous.
[ August 10, 2004, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
But how can you ask someone out after they've jsut cried on your shoulder? It's, I dunno, obscene . . .
But I did it. I asked her out tonight. She's considering. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yay! Best o' luck.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Yes, girls like nice guys. They also like them smart, funny, charming and confident. Or at least two out of the four.
If you aren't getting play, you can blame it on being "too nice," but if people don't correct this delusion it's because they're being "nice," too.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Very cool Anthro. Good luck. Regardless of what she says, your having asked is a good thing.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Dear Diary,
Noemon still hasn't called! I've done everything I know. Right now I just wish I was dead!
More later.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Dude.
Have you tried asking her out?
And nice is entirely relative.
-Trevor
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Ralphie!
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Yeah. thanks Pooka
Happy Camper, I think you're being mildly defensive. I do think it's true that friends of mine who probably consider themselves "nice guys, unappreciated," are actually "nice guys, + other stuff."
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I like nice guys. I married one.
Turned out "nice" was not be as important as "committed." Nice guys without sufficient backbone and stamina to make it through the tough times . . . well, let's just say I plan to do my best not to end up with another of those.
Posted by enjeeo (Member # 2336) on :
And because she's worried that if she dates you, you will stop being her fantastic, sensitive guy friend and turn into the jerk.
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
I am actually currently working through this problem. Having dated jerk after jerk, I realize that I'm probably doing something royally wrong. I'm trying to condition myself to weed out the *ss clowns early on so I can finally have a suckage-free relationship. So far so not that good. I still see myself desiring to spend more of my time with the ones that aren't as nice. It's like c'mon Sandy, do you want a mouse or a man?
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
1. Almost every guy thinks he is nice but all to often the guy is really just passive-aggressive over thinking he is being screwed over because he is nice. He then has a chip on his shoulder and is not seen as a nice guy OR pleasant to be around. In that scenerario guy needs to reassess nice label and look to other reasons why he is not getting laid. (LIKE the passive-aggressive thing)
2. Often nice equals bland. It is not that the guy is really a kind, decent person - he is just too inert to do harm. He is also too inert to have fun.
3. Often nice guys are only attracted to women that turn them down and do not see the many women that are into them. They would not know flirtation if it bit them on the back pocket.
4. Most girls that go for the truly bad boys do get over it - or end up bitter and alone.
5. I am married to the most nice and wonderful man in the universe. At first I wrote him off as not my type but his love and patience made me see that he truly was the best person I had ever met in my life.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Just saw another photo of Mark and Lori Hacking on the 10 o'clock news.
Yep, the prettier the girl, the jerkier the donut hole.
Posted by from Cythera (Member # 6749) on :
quote: Girls need to find the guys who are jerks, turn them into a project and try to change them into nice guys, and then they call me and complain about how it's not working.
This, in my experience, is completely the case. Something about how a guy willing to change for you makes it that much more appealing.
As for me, I've seen the not nice guys in action way too often. I'm not interested in dangerous or the "project." I know that's a rarity, but there are definitely many great girls out there who aren't into the tough, mean, cool guys.
Everyone has to go through tough rejections to build character. Best of luck with the girl.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: but there are definitely many great girls out there who aren't into the tough, mean, cool guys.
I'm too scared to be into such guys. Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Well, I'm a jerk. Maybe that's why I dated so much...
Hmmm... Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: 1. Almost every guy thinks he is nice but all to often the guy is really just passive-aggressive over thinking he is being screwed over because he is nice. He then has a chip on his shoulder and is not seen as a nice guy OR pleasant to be around. In that scenerario guy needs to reassess nice label and look to other reasons why he is not getting laid. (LIKE the passive-aggressive thing)
2. Often nice equals bland. It is not that the guy is really a kind, decent person - he is just too inert to do harm. He is also too inert to have fun.
3. Often nice guys are only attracted to women that turn them down and do not see the many women that are into them. They would not know flirtation if it bit them on the back pocket.
4. Most girls that go for the truly bad boys do get over it - or end up bitter and alone.
Spot on.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Anthro, would you rather be a nice guy or a fat woman? Life is incredibly cruel of fat women. At least nice guys can fake mean for a night. I don't know if any guy gets to complain, when you consider the alternatives.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
spot on your underwear, maybe.
fallow
Posted by from Cythera (Member # 6749) on :
I just had another outlook on this. If I were cheated on by a "nice guy" (which I believed we have defined as sensitive, considerate, and non-agressive) I would be nearly destroyed. That would mean it was either my fault or that I was so intolerable that I drove even him to do something so out of character. However, when dating the bad boy, a girl is always aware of that possibility and is often on her toes so to speak. With that type of guy, the girl could be perfectly great and still get cheated on. In this sense, the bad boy is the safer bet.
I don't know if I really believe that. Just speculating.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
fallow
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
Suneun, not at all. In fact I tend to agree with your assessment for the most part. I really was simply drawing what you said out to a potential conclusion there. [mock exasperation] Do winks mean nothing to you people?!?[/mock exasperation]
Maybe the one of the real problems is that everybody has their issues, but the issues that 'nice guys' have are more off putting, or, in a world where guys are largely expected to do the courting, cause them to never really get the shot, so they never work through those problems (in the most extreme instances of course).
[theory]Early on in life, these guys look at who is getting the dates among their peers (we're talking early dating age), and sort of despair, because they could never behave like that, or treat women as they see them treated. That knowledge is not going to be on a concious level and becomes difficult to fix. Most guys get over it though.[/theory]
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
quote: sure we like you nice guys..... just as friends
FG
Well, I have lost hope.
Posted by Wonko The Sane (Member # 2945) on :
*sigh*
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Nice is different than good.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Yeah, I am nice, but I would never say that I was good.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Interesting...when I was a teenager, I also thought girls were only attracted to the "cool" guys. I suffered and moaned a lot.
When I got a little older, I discovered one thing: Some times, it is not a "girl thing" (to like only the "cool" guy at school). It is a teenager thing.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Happy Camper, to add... I think it's more to do with how well the girl knows the guy. I know my guy friends so well that I know their idiosyncracies. I know they're nice and broken. Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Okay, here's the deal. Let's say that you are a nice guy, through and through. But the girls you are interested in just don't grab onto you and your niceness.
Let's see, you'd be considerate, caring, active, involved and supportive. And let's throw in that you'd still retain your independence (sometimes the needy claim they are nice, but really aren't), as well as have some ambition, skills and social adeptness.
So, you've got all those things going for you and the girl just doesn't notice you in a romantic way? What? You'd really want a long-term relationship with someone who didn't and couldn't appreciate these wonderful qualities in you???
If you are the nice guy who tries hard and wants to make his way in the world, then just keep making your way and keep being the nice guy. Someday the right woman, one who can and will appreciate you, will come along.
Until then, it's just sophmoric hand-wringing which leads to a very visible hurt sense of self worth. And that's not very attractive except to Florence Nightingales (they will heal and change you) or Prunella Predators (they want you weak and vulnerable to best fit the (hen)pecking order they will establish in the relationship).
The Nice Guys way to success: really be yourself and keep on doing it.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Yes -- I think the level of maturity of the girl has a lot to do with it.
When I was fresh out of high school, my significant other was a very "nice guy" in all senses of the words. Very stable, level-headed, sweet, romantic, just crazy about me, etc. And I was bored to tears!, or so I thought.
I dumped him and later hooked up with "fun" guy -- wild, crazy, unpredictable, etc. Lots of fun -- also very violent, controlling, etc etc. Not a nice guy. Lots of action, lots of dangerous stunts, lots of rebellion, but definately fun. (or so I thought). That got old after awhile.
Now I'm middle aged and looking back can see how much better the "nice-guy" really was -- but in my own immaturity I didn't give him any credit for his strengths.
I would have a lot more appreciation for a nice guy now -- after having spent years with the other types.
Farmgirl
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What does "nice guy" mean, anyway? Absense of malice is not the same as good, somehow.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
"Nice guy" means "me."
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hmm Suneun, you've got a point. I have two good guy friends, who both got married last year. They are a bit older than me. The are both genuinely nice guys, that are drop dead gorgeous, and have enough of an original streak that girls fell at their feet. (I still remember walking down the street in Los Angeles near UCLA in between them and the dirty looks I got from every female that passed by going "How could you be with BOTH of them?!")
The thing was I'm the one who got to hear all of their breakups etc. I knew their major flaws. I saw them in their grubby clothes (something they wouldn't let a gf see for a long time) I had a crush on one for a while. But even during the crush, I knew that the flaws he had would drive me crazy in an actual relationship.
Steve has just as many flaws, no one is perfect. Considering we were friends for over a year before we got together, I knew most of his beforehand as well. But our flaws are compatible flaws, they aren't the same ones as my other friends. My friends' flaws while they were even endearing in a friend of mine, would have driven me up a wall in an actual serious relationship.
That may have a lot to do with the "nice guy" flaw problem. When you know someone so well as a friend, you have to choose which flaws you are willing to live with and which ones you aren't. Especially if you are friends first for any length of time, you might discover the flaws without the rose colored glasses of initial infatuation to make you say "this is a flaw I can live with" And there often is a flaw that is annoying enough, that you just put them in the "non-romantic" box, without pausing to consider all of the advantages that someone could have in a relationship with them, and applying it to yourself. It is easy to point out their good qualities to cheer them up and say that "someone else" will appreciate them someday cause you aren't investing nearly as much personally.
AJ
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Nice guy frequently means doormat.
If you're nice and you're interested in me, let me know! Don't be shy! The worst thing I can do is reject you.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have to admit that "nice" is not on my list of traits that I look for, and it's not a reccomendation.
Kind, gentle, funny, interesting, smart, principled, passionate, compassionate, and insightful are all on there, but "nice" is nowhere to be found.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I must admit, this conversation is reminding me of a greeting card I saw once. On the cover is some hansome, buff male and it says, "What we are looking for". On the inside, is a picture of a balding middle aged man with a pot belly and says, "What's looking for us."
I will let you meditate on this now.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*ouch*
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I agree. Like I said, nice means doormat. To elaborate, most people use 'nice' as a descriptor for people who are otherwise unremarkable. Not all the time, but definitely some of the time. I know a lot of people who are very nice and who are also interesting and some who are only... nice.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
To add my own thoughts, I don't think that card was so much about looks as just a general "survival of the fittest" phenomenon that we see around us. Each individual seeks to "mate" with someone higher up on the chain than they are. They will seek out the best "specimine" they can find that will have them.
Another little funny, the sentiment, "You are the most beautiful woman in the world who would have sex with me."
We laugh at these things, but we laugh because there is a kernal of truth there. As humans and individuals, though, we try not to be so shallow.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm very shallow. I only date very good-looking guys.
Posted by delicate flower (Member # 6260) on :
How would you rate the truth of this statement: "Men love the women they are attracted to, women are attracted to the men they love."
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think it is a stereotype that some fit and some don't. I feel like I myself fit it, but there are women who would say that is not true for them. I think the same is probably true for men. I do, however, wish more men were better at being attracted to the woman they love.
Oh, and on the above "funnies", I think that the sentiment of "lowering your expectations" is too disparaging. I prefer "finding beauty and wonder" where it was not originally apparent; Finding the Prince or Princess in the frog.
[ August 11, 2004, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Back when I referred to myself as a "nice guy," I was indeed a codependent, manipulative, unctuous milquetoast. I don't know whether that was causative or merely symptomatic of my dating situation at the time -- during which I slept my way through literally countless frivolous and futureless relationships while desperately orbiting the few girls who thought of me as "just a friend" and waiting eagerly for them to get dumped by their current jerk, in case they'd "finally" see the light -- but I suspect that it was a bit of both. (In other words, women who only date jerks but pick nice, stable men as friends turn nice, stable men into sneaky, manipulative jerks out of desperation -- but many men who appear stable would probably appear much jerkier if they didn't have to pretend to be "nice" to get any attention at all.)
It was only when I stopped being a nice guy, I believe, that I became a good person.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I think I'm a pretty nice guy and I could care less about whether girls like nice guys or not.
Even if I know, for a fact, that girls prefer jerks, what am I going to do, start acting like a jerk just to get laid?
If you are a nice guy who get rejected a lot, maybe you should ask the question, "why do nice guys go for dumb girls who don't appreciate them?"
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There was a period of my life (when I was waiting for my future wife to get back to the States so I could court here) when I absolutely didn't care what girls thought of me. I stopped being nice, and started being a jerk. All of a sudden, I became far more attractive to the women around. At the time, I thought it was because I was being a jerk. Now I think that it was because of my confidence.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I dunno why this came to mind, but I am thinking of Star Wars. In the first movie, when there was no hint of incest, Leia had two choices in men. Han Solo, and Luke. There was Leia walking away in disgusted muttering about whether or not Han cares about anyone or anything. Luke responds lamely, "I care." Also, Leia kissing Luke on the mouth to show her approval of him being a "nice guy".
Do you remember the "nice men" convo? "I like nice men!" "I am nice men" *proceeds to kiss the hesitant Leia*. Han was rude, rough, and "uncivilized". What did Han have that Luke didn't? And no fair saying "Luke was her brother, of course she couldn't like him."
My answer? Han was charming. Luke was whiney.
<=== Is a huge Han Solo fan.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Han was Harrison Ford... end of story.
AJ
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
You aren't being nice if:
1) You only want to talk about me. 2) Only agree with me 3) Don't really have any interests that you can just talk about. 4) Don't challenge me to be a better person 5) Aren't excited by anything
I've gone on dates with people before and not had a great time. My friends are all baffled by it and tell me so and so is such a nice guy. Sure he may be nice and sure he may even be smart. But, if the entire time we are out you tend to especially just do 1-3 on the first few dates of course I'm not interested. I'm not looking for jerks. In fact I don't like jerks. I'm looking for someone who has some vibrance to his life. I've dated shy geeky guys and had so much fun. It's all about enjoying life and being willing to show that to someone else.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
AJ, while you do have a point, and it is a shame that there is one and only one Harrison Ford... of all the roles he has played, Han is still by far my favorite despite Harrison's increasing "sexiness" as time went on. So for me, there is a certain something about that Han character.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I LOVE nice guys!
Nice guys are great!
So .... nice!
Goodness, silliness, selflessness, loving-kindness, tenderness, nobility, honor, honesty, humility, nonviolence, seriousness, simplicity, tolerance, respect, steadiness, self-control, intelligence, humor, affection, joy. mmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm, what could possibly be more attractive than all of that? Nothing could.
Nice guys are mind numbingly hawt.
[ August 11, 2004, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
bev were you here on hatrack when I posted the thread about my brother having lunch with Harry?
AJ
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
O_O
No! At least, I didn't see it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
*raises hand*
I'm nice men...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
As a self-professed nice men, what exactly does that mean?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It means that I'm a scoundrel, just like Han. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yes, I vouch for him. He is a scoundrel. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I see the phrase nice guy bandied about much, but I really want to know what it is that makes them self-identify? Given no other information, I'm going to be forced to fall on Tom, Noemon, and BobthLawyer's explanations.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
For me, the very basic definition of a nice guy in relationship terms mean:
1. I am honest with my partner. 2. I will not cheat on my partner. 3. I will let her have the last piece of chicken.
You can be nice without being spineless, indecisive or manipulative.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That just sounds like a decent human being, not a "nice guy".
edit: except for the last piece of chicken. That's mine!
[ August 11, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
And you can certainly do all of the above and still not be a nice guy, much less attractive to go out with.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Generally, when girls I was friends with talked about wanting a nice guy, they were complaining about how their boyfriend (or recent ex...) cheated on them, verbally abused them, ignored them, or otherwise treated them like a spot to put Tab A, rather then as a person.
Since those are characteristics I do NOT have, I have always thought of myself as a "nice guy"
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Then they walk into another relationship with a guy that's so much like the previous one that you start wondering: did she hear herself the last time ?!
<-- nice guy, turned bad, twice, because of being rejected... And is was... a nightmare. I like being a nice guy.
Edit: Nice guy: the one that really cares about a girl, whether or not he wants something from her, whether or not she is his girlfriend. "Excellent friend material. But to date that nice guy ? Neeee, I can do better !"
[ August 11, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Corwin ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I agree, Beren, at least for the first two, that is my definition of a "good" or "decent" guy. In my mind, a "nice" guy is someone who isn't obnoxious.
Now, anyone who knows Porter knows that he is both obnoxious and a very decent, good, fellow. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So a "nice guy" is defined by not cheating on the girlfriend he never gets?
[ August 11, 2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: <-- nice guy, turned bad, twice, because of being rejected... And is was... a nightmare. I like being a nice guy.
Can you honestly say that is because of rejection? I think a nice guy (or "decent" guy) chooses to be nice regardless of what happens to him.
Other than that, Corwin, I am as boggled as you at the behavior of women going through the same bad relationships time after time. I had one *really, really* bad relationship. After that, I dated the most harmless man ever born on the face of the earth. He was an *extremely* good and decent man. And it was sexy. But he wasn't very bright, and that was no good.
Then Porter wooed me. I didn't like his "jerkish" side. But I realized he was just "obnoxious" and that it wasn't the same thing. I also discovered I could trust Porter with my life. He won me over.
[ August 11, 2004, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: So a "nice guy" is defined by not cheating on the girlfriend he never gets?
Heh.
*wonders how fast such a guy would turn into a "jerk" if many beautiful women were fawning over him*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You've got it the wrong way around. How long after he becomes a jerk until the women start fawning all over him?
It was weeks for me. Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
beverly, I don't know what you understood there, but what I wanted to say is that I didn't give up on those girls when I should have, and thus, made there lives misserable. Now, from somebody who says he loves you, that's pretty bad, stupid, idiotic, don't you think ? Well, I did it. And it took me 3 years to fully realize it. I thought I was "right" in doing the things I've done until I figured out there's really no right or wrong in this kind of matters. You have no right to be loved. You have no duty to give love. It's just the way it is.
It was quite frightening once I realized what I've done... Fortunately, one of the girls passed over this, and is currently my best girl friend. The other one, on the other hand, has almost completely broken all contact with me and that hurts. Because I would have at least wanted to remain friends, but I know that she has every right to be mad at me and act the way she does...
Edit: I guess you thought "turned bad" was about acting like a jerk towards everybody. Well, I didn't, I did it only with the ones I loved... Much, much better...
[ August 11, 2004, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Corwin ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote: So a "nice guy" is defined by not cheating on the girlfriend he never gets?
Of course! Some call it creepy stalking. I call it true love.
[ August 11, 2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
bev, about "women going through the same bad relationships time after time":
I don't know much about the dating habits of women who are 25-30-40, but I know a little about girls. Sometimes, the "jerk" opens a little more to you than to others. But he is, ultimately, a jerk.
An example I think I already posted: A girl fell in love with a smoking, drinking, cursing, (have to admit this ->) intelligent jerk. Who, even after they started their relantionship was telling everybody that he has another girlfriend back in Romania. The girl finaly found out. Did she dump him ? No ! She accepted his explanation that he loves her and the other one was just... Don't know really, but he said he'd brake up with the other one. Phase one...
Later, I found out that the guy DID NOT break up with his other girlfriend ! So, naturally, I thought any intelligent girl would get out of such a relationship ! She did... Only to, later, come back to him.
EDIT: I forgot to say that somewhere in between he was at a(n apartement) party by himself and was seen by many kissing with another girl. How cool is that ?!?
I have a (male) friend who loved this girl. A "nice guy". But all he could be to her was "her best friend". The one to whom she would tell much more than to her boyfriend.
Now, the only way I can explain this is: LOVE IS BLIND ! I discovered such blindness in myself too, but I'm working on driving it out. I never liked loosing control of my mind and body, I don't like it even for the "high purpose" of love...
[ August 11, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Corwin ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
A lot of "nice guys" complain that they can only remain a girl's friend and can never advance to the next stage.
But that complaint implies that the "nice guy" is not really satisfied with just being friends with the girl; the friendship is just a cover until he can make his move.
So are people like that really nice guys?
Maybe that is the appeal of the jerk. Like that obnoxious guy said in Swingers, it is so much more money to be straightforward and honest with your agenda.
Edited to add: Corwin, this is not a response to your thread or a criticism of your friend. I posted this before reading your post.
[ August 11, 2004, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Sorry, Corwin. I didn't know what you meant by "turned bad". It did indeed sound like you were saying you became a jerk because of rejection, and that wasn't making sense to me. Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Well, the "nice guy" usually tells the girl he wants to be her boyfriend...
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Beren : As I said before, I think they still are nice guys if they treat girls nicely no matter how close they want to get to them. I acted like that, and me and my (only) ex-girlfriend were best friends before getting together. Anyway, it was her who fell in love with me first, but didn't act on it because I was so obviously (for her) attracted to the other girls.
And there are other girls who I consider among my best friends, girls I've never thought of as possible girlfriends. Because they had a friend, or because of lack of similar interests, or from other causes, including the simplest one: I did not feel anything for them that could have been categorized as at least an incipient form of love.
bev, don't worry, as you can see in the edit of my other post, I finaly understood what you were thinking I said.
Paul, that's true. But the "nice guy" also does something else: he tries not to start a relationship without knowing that person a little better. That can make him lose tons of occasions though, in front of guys who "know what they want".
And, probably even more important, a "nice guy" tells a girl when it's no longer working between them. He doesn't turn into a jerk in order to get rid of the girl. He doesn't start seeing someone else while waiting for the girlfriend to finaly get it that it's over.
And a "nice guy" doesn't try to break another relationship in order to have the girl. Me, if I hear a girl I'm interested in already has a boyfriend, I back off immediately. And I've seen so many guys do the opposite AND obtain what they wanted that it just makes me mad... I'm talking mainly about guys taking advantage of the fact that the girl had a long distance relationship, so she didn't see her boyfriend very much. Of course, those things couldn't have happened without the girls' tacit approval, but still, it doesn't seem right to me to temp someone who's in an already difficult situation.
Yes, one could say that a "nice guy", as defined by me, is the same as a "decent human being". So what ? Should he be different ?!
[ August 11, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Corwin ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: And a "nice guy" doesn't try to break a relationship in order to have the girl. Me, if I hear a girl I'm interested in already has a boyfriend, I back off immediately.
I agree with this, if all you are looking for is a girlfriend. That used to be part of my own personal code of honor.
But then when I found somebody I wanted to marry, the gloves came off. It was no longer a game -- it was a fight for our life together.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Well, then I'm lucky I didn't find someone I would marry with who already had a relationship, am I not ?
And another thing: while I don't really think about marriage right now, I've never considered the girls that I loved to be just "girlfriend" potential and no "marrying" potential. It was more like: "I'd be so lucky to be with her !" And then, "forever" just added naturaly at the end of the sentence... Maybe it's because I was "already" 20 when I found love for the first time. Or maybe I'm just too serious about this, but that's who I am.
quote: But then when I found somebody I wanted to marry, the gloves came off.
"I would do anything for love... But I won't do that !" (I think...)
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yeah, I was in love with another man. But he was on the other side of the planet. Porter had no intention of giving in just because of that. He confessed his feelings for me and let me decide at his own personal risk.
And, hey, girls like it when guys are willing to fight for them.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
So I've noticed, bev... Probably a reminiscence from the Knight in shining armor period - or before. Picking the man who shows he's the strongest, most willing to fight for her. Well, in a society that calls itself civilized (or "not acting like animals anymore"), I find this kind of attitude disappointingly imature.
Edit: I think I become too bitter. I need to get some sleep...
[ August 11, 2004, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Corwin ]
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
You know, it’s funny. I always dated nice guys. Sweet and respectful and worshipful (an old requirement for nice guy), who would never even think of looking at another woman while with me. And I never loved any of them. I used to think I needed a bad boy to make me feel passion and intensity, but I was never willing to go out with the jerks who met my bad boy requirements. So I never felt anything real in any of my relationships. Then, I met my best friends’ ex-husband. He met all the bad boy physical requirements, tall, dark, brooding, and handsome beyond words. And, according to her, he met all the other requirements as well. They were still friends, but had had a bad relationship. He had cheated on her, and she on him. Nasty all around. So, he became nothing but friend material. We went everywhere together, and I set him up with my girlfriends. I watched him date beautiful, aggressive women who treated him like absolute crap. One of them actually hit him on a regular basis (he had to restrain me from exacting vigilante justice when I heard that). And he always came back to me. We would fall asleep together on the couch watching movies, and he would wake up and make me breakfast. This whole time, I had a huge crush on him, but I was the “nice girl”, not nearly in his league physically, but fun to be with and a good standby. This was a new experience for me, and it SUCKED! It was heartbreaking to watch him beat himself up over women who weren’t good enough to lick his boots, knowing I could make him happy. But I never said anything because I had no desire to humiliate myself. We moved in together, and made perfect roommates. I had distanced myself completely from my feelings for him so I could bear to live with him, and it worked out pretty well, except when he would come out of the bathroom wearing a nothing but a towel and sit and read. Damn you oblivious men. Anyways, blah blah blah, we made it a month with everything being easy. Then, one night at a friends house, we played drunken spin the bottle. He kissed me, and I kissed him. And that was it. We’ve been going out for two years. He told me that he had been in love with me from the beginning, but didn’t think he was good enough for me, plus I was his ex-wives best friend and knew every single one of his nastiest secrets. He had told himself that he had to be content with friendship, and the women he dated were all that he deserved. It killed me to hear that. If I had had the balls right at the start to say what I was feeling, I could have spared him and myself a lot of pain. He has his issues, and is still a “bad boy”. But he is also the nicest, most considerate man I have ever met. HE would give me that last piece of chicken;). I still get dirty and confused looks from women when we go out, but he makes me feel like only I exist for him.
So, you nice guys, consider whether it’s your pride and fear of rejection that’s keeping you from aggressively pursuing the object of your love. All too often, we apply ridiculous, or not so ridiculous, parameters to our loves, which limit us and blind us to the reality of what we could have.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Corwin, in our more civilized day and age, fighting doesn't necessarily involve attacking each other. But women want to know just how much they mean to a man. And if he is willing to go through a lot to have her, she knows that he means it.
Foundling, that was an awesome story. Thank you for sharing it!
[ August 11, 2004, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:(In other words, women who only date jerks but pick nice, stable men as friends turn nice, stable men into sneaky, manipulative jerks out of desperation -- but many men who appear stable would probably appear much jerkier if they didn't have to pretend to be "nice" to get any attention at all.)
Well, I very rarely act on the sneaky, manipulative feelings in my head, but they're there.
This past summer, I decided to drop the nice guy thing, and just be my jerky, horny, basically inconsiderate self. That didn't really work, either.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, at least you weren't acting, though, right?
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Thanks, Beverly. I didnt realize quite how long it was till I posted it. By the way, yours and MPHs story was beautiful. I read it and never posted a reply, but I loved it.
And Foust, I hate to say this, but "most" women can spot insincerity a mile away. It amazes me how many men believe that those sneaky, manipulative thoughts arent written on your forehead . Sounds like you havent been comfortable being yourself, and then when you finally let go, maybe you went over board in the opposite direction. But I think most women will prefer honest ***holes to sneaky sweethearts anyday. So keep up the good work and balance yourself out.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm reminded of some show or movie where a guy was asking a girl what girls really want.
"First, you must be sincere."
"Sincerity? OK -- I can fake that."
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Kat, like most things "nice guy" is context dependent. I'm pretty adamant, though, that someone bemoaning how they're a "nice guy" is whining about how their infatuation isn't going out with them. That's it. "Jerk," means "not me." And they would never do the things "not them" do that hurt "girl-on-pedestal." Generally they are needy, passive aggressive and all the things Tom and others have listed. But they'll never change because the cling to their "nice guy" sense of self to avoid making any real change. Again, look at Tom's post where he said he didn't become a good person until he stopped being "nice."
It's less about how they treat others as it is about their own psychological hang-ups.
On the other hand, someone like Porter who is saying, "hey, I'm a nice guy and chicks dig me" (or words to that effect) means "nice" in the dictionary sense. Kind, caring, generous, selfless, etc. etc.
All of this, of course, is nothing but my professional humble opinion.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
You're probably right, Foundling. But I can't shake the feeling that if I'm not nice, that I'll be ignored or dismissed. I have no clue how to find a balance.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think the above quote from Porter came from Groundhog Day when the gal is listing off the traits of her ideal man. Can anyone confirm it?
Posted by Wonko The Sane (Member # 2945) on :
quote:Oh, and on the above "funnies", I think that the sentiment of "lowering your expectations" is too disparaging. I prefer "finding beauty and wonder" where it was not originally apparent; Finding the Prince or Princess in the frog.
*makes frog like noises*
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Ahem.
Just because I spent the afternoon giggling like a schoolgirl,
If you follow the dates and times, match what he's saying to the timeline of his wife's disappearance.
-Trevor
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Don't worry if the other person likes you. Be yourself, don't be mean, but if a response in needed, don't say what you think they want to hear. Just react honestly. If that means you are rude or selfish, then work on some personal qualities and try again.
People can really tell when someone's faking it. Besides, if you're faking it and they like it, the price is that you'll never be able to STOP faking it. Who wants that?
[ August 12, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
peruses threadfully-fuddy-duddies.
so, aside from the apparently "attached" knock-outs, are there any single gals with opinions?
fallow
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I was the "nice guy" who had to watch all his friends get the girls, and then feel even worse watching them treat the girls like toilet paper. i was often closer to their girlfriends than they were, and it sucked all around.
I did the "friend" thing for a couple of years with a girl named Trish, and it was the best and worse times of my life (at that point), because I really cared for her.
Eventually the tables were turned, and I was the one who didn't trust her enough to be with her, and it turned real bad really fast.
It tool me literaly 3 years to recover from it, and I almost made the biggest mistake of my life because of it.
I ingored the woman I ended up marrying for 2 and 1/2 years, because she reminded me too much of Trish.
They were so much alike it was just too scary, and I ducked and ran for cover. Jenni and I worked together, and that is the only reason we still saw each other, the only way we met and/or saw each other.
Then one day I realized that I might be passing on something great. So I asked her out....
and we never looked back.
She is the best thing that ever happened to me, even on her worst day, an I am lucky beyond belief to have her.
So don't worry...sometimes it is the timing that is off...but sometimes it is you.
There is hope for all "nice" guys, provided they don't lose faith in themselves.
And for every nive guy, I am sure there is a nice girl out there that feels the same.
Kwea
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*wishes he had a wing-man like kwea*
dude.
fallow
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I was the wing-man WAY too often!
Then again, the women talking to me were probably the female equlivelent..... Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
This is an interesting topic and its taken me a while to slog my way through it. But here is what I came up with.
First off, "nice" and "jerk" are both completely relative terms. Depending on a number of things including: who is doing the speaking, who is the spoken of, and what the spoken of and the speaker think of each other.
As an example I'll use myself. I have been told more times than I can count, by many of my female friends(and my gf) that I am a very nice, kind, great guy. However, these are who I consider friends and who I think highly of and like. There are several people, friends of friends or people I know whom I don't much get alone with. They drive me up the wall for reasons not entirely apparent. To them I am the epitome of jerk. I'm harsh, rude, sarcastic, unforgiving, and basicially an asshole. So to those whom I like and who like me I can be a great person. But to those who I don't like and who don't like me, I'm an ass.
Considering there are only (*counts on hand*) about three or four people whom I don't like enough as to be an asshole to, I'd consider myself a nice guy. And therefore, in response to the first post: the nice guys do sometimes get the girl... I did Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Wasn't this explained by some genius scientist back in the late 1800s? Nice guys = low sperm count where as bad asses have better sperm. It's been proven by science.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Well since testosterone has been linked to aggression and competetiveness, especially in this area...
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
kwea,
may I call you Goose?
fallow
PS. just a thought. could be fun.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: It's been proven by science
Where? When?
I don't think it is quite that easy, and even if it were I would need a lot more than your assertion that is was.
A lot of it is very subjective, not biological at all. Not every guy who is nice comes across as nice to others, just like not every jerk comes across that way immediately.
Also, some of it depends on the reasoning behind the actions. You can say that it is wrong to hit a woman.....but what about a woman who is being physically abusive to a guy.....doesn't he have a right to defend himself too?
I had a friends ex-girlfriend run me off the road, drunk off her kazoo, on the highway at about 60 mph (no relation to our mph.. ). When i stopped, she did, and jumped out of her car...or started to, anyway. i beat her to it, and slammed her back into her car, then slammed the car door into her. I wanted to punch her, I I wouldn't have been too off base there, I think....we almost died. I actually spun out avoiding her! But I didn't....
I am also sure she told her friends I beat her up, and I was over reacting. I heard her say it....lol...
Let me be clear though...viloence isn't a good thing, ever. it's just sometimes the only thing that can keep you alive until you can get away.
I am just using that as an example of how my friend and I felt I had been fairly restrained, but she thought I was an idiot.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I thought the Somalian was trying to be funny. But then again, it is so hard to tell sometimes....
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
goose? GOOSE?! respond please!
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Why is this still being discussed?
I'm not advocating being a jerk, but one way to becoming a healthy human being is to not let yourself get too involved in something that isn't worth it. Most "nice guys" are obsessed with whatever girl they're currently trying to spend time with. They don't realize that by NOT spending so much time with the girl who's not going to give them any, they're actually being a better person. Spend time with other women. Hang out with guys. Do anything other than spend time with that woman. She might actually come to appreciate your presense once it is missed. If not, who gives a crap. You'll probably have long since met some really groovy chick who thinks you're pretty swank yourself, and you'll forget about what's-her-face.
Seriously. If the girl is not your girlfriend, and you spend time with other girls, you're not cheating on her. She's not your girlfriend.
[ August 13, 2004, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Primal Curve ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
PC,
yer a real party pooper, you know that?
fallow
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:They don't realize that by NOT spending so much time with the girl who's not going to give them any, they're actually being a better person.
Or, at the very least, a much happier person. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*basks in Primal's words of wisdom*
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
bev,
Still lookin' to earn a buck or two?
fallow
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Sure, hon. But I will need input from ya, you understand. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Back off, fallow. Take the trolling elsewhere.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I am by no means perfect at this sort of thing. I certainly have self-esteem issues (I keep wondering if beverly is being sarcastic, for instance) that used to make me quake at asking girls out or whatever, but I usually just sucked it up and asked. I got hurt a few times by girls who were less than sensitive to the subject, and most of the time when I'd ask I'd have sweaty palms or a quiver in my voice, but in most cases it was worth the effort. I then had closure and knew whether or not to move on, or at least got a clearer understanding of the girl's own intentions.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
PC, I was not being sarcastic. I think you had some good advice there. Perhaps I believe in it because I have seen it in my husband and it works.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Gosh. It's as if most of you are unaware of the ladder theory
[ August 13, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: the_Somalian ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
don't walk underneath (^^^) one, 'specially on Friday the 13th?
fallow
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Right, well if that's true, I'm converting to Catholicism and joining a convent.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I love the ladder theory. It's so well thought out. It just suffers from one major flaw, it assumes it understands all men.
Yeah, I love sex. I see a girl and I sometimes say to myself "geez, I bet she's a minx in bed," but I don't let it color my relationships with women. I am not just a product of my desires. I can rise above them to be a better person. It's called being civilized.
The same can be said about the women's side. The desire for money/power, I believe, comes from maternal instict. If all men want to do is breed, all women want to do is make sure those offspring are well taken care of. If the man lacks money or power, then he cannot provide that feeling of security.
But, again, women can rise above this. They can find a guy who may be kind of a wuss, and may not be Mr Moneybags, but he cares about her and makes sure she's happy. It's not so black and white.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I just read the ladder theory for the first time. Is it ironic that my response is that I would never be interested in such a bitter, pessimistic, punk no matter how attractive, rich, or powerful he is?
"Things That Girls Say that Matter But Don't"
Meh.
He presumes to understand women also, PC. For instance, while it may be true that some women have two ladders, I have only ever had one. But the title of my ladder is "guys who I would date and maybe eventually marry". Any of my male "friends" had a shot at it. It is true that occasionally a guy would attach himself to me like a puppy dog. He never had a chance. But then, I wouldn't have called him a "friend" either. More someone I tolerated because I couldn't bring myself to say "take a hike".
Girls know when guys like them more often than guys realize. Those girls may even lead such men on. But it is only because they don't realize that doing so may be far more cruel than holding them off. They are too "nice" to be "cold".
[ August 14, 2004, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*wanders in singing*
"Matchmaker, matchmaker make me a match . . . find me a find . . . catch me a catch . . . "
*Pauses to solemnly declare:
"That's the trouble these days - all us single things are left on our own to find the 'right' one . . . "
continues on through the thread singing*
"You ain't nothing but a hound dog . . . cryin' all the time . . . "
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
I mentioned the ladder at some previous point in another thread (to TomD). It's an interesting theory, more right than some suppose, and less right than others believe. The forums on the official ladder page are pretty sketchy/gross/icky. The men who post there are not the kind of men I'd voluntarily associate with.
But I definitely have female friends who work on the 2-ladder system, and a couple who only have one ladder. Most of my guy friends have the equivalent of one-ladder.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
While I have never seen his "ladder theory" before today, I myself have preached many of the underlying principles and even been criticized for so doing. He isn't "wrong" per se....
But he declares it to be How Things Are combined with disparaging and pessimistic comments about my fellow human beings. His underlying thrust is to men is, "don't let yourselves be intellectual whores" (intellectual whores=a male who is "just friends" to a desired female) and to women, "don't lead men on." I would prefer an underlying message of "rise above the animal inside you." In other words, men, don't depend so much on your rating-system of sexual attractiveness--foster attraction based on inner beauty, and women, look for romance in your wonderful male friends where you never would have thought to find it. If humanity did a better job at both these things there would be less frustrated men and women.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Is it just me or am I in a minority of people who don't immediately think of sex and getting laid when they think of relationships.... does anyone else here think more of compansionship than getting laid when the subject of relationships comes up?
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote: Is it just me or am I in a minority of people who don't immediately think of sex and getting laid when they think of relationships....?
We must first ask a different question: Are you a guy or chick?
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I'm a guy.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Well, Alcon, as a girl, here was the progression.
Young teens - first stirrings of lust for the tall, dark and handsome types.
First boyfriend, no can do - just kisses and cuddles and thoughts of marriage.
18 and off to college - it was all about lust. Marriage was not even a remote consideration.
Mid-20's: a pleasant mixture of the two until a failed marriage came along.
Now I dream of the convent.
Moral: It's different at different stages for different people. The trick is in determining your actions and path.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Arsed... didn't mean thoughts of marrige. I'm not even gonna think about that till I'm at least halfway through college.
What I meant was, a large number of people who posted on this thread seemed to be of the opinion that having a bf/gf and getting laid were synonomous and the only or primary reason to have a bf/gf was so one could get laid. Am I just weird in thinking that there is something wrong with this picture...?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
[This post has been deleted for general obnoxiousness.]
[ August 16, 2004, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
"'You're such a nice guy' means, 'I'm going to be dating leather wearing alcoholics and complaining about them TO YOU.'" -Chandler from Friends
[ August 16, 2004, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: odouls268 ]
Posted by keepsmilin (Member # 6607) on :
all the people who talk about how the nice guys only go after the girls they can't get are so right. I've always had a thing for a particular "nice guy," and while we are friends, he has never thought of me in any other way. He has always been attracted to the girls that wouldn't talk to him if he was the last guy on the planet. I think thats the way most of those nice guys are, they don't appreciate a good thing if it's staring them in the face. I think its good to be a nice guy, but speaking for myself, I must say that being kind, and having a lot of confidence along with that is way more attractive than being a rebel thats cocky or being excessively "nice."
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I find that a lot of nice guys have the problem described in the song below. It isn't a bad song but it annoys me because they don't get off their rear and do anything about liking the girl. They are content in their miserable adoration from afar that causes nothing but grief.
quote: She's So High Above Me Artist(Band):Fastball
She's blood, flesh and bone no tucks or silicone She's touch, smell, sight, taste and sound but somehow I can't believe that anything will happen I know where I belong and nothing's gonna happen --- yeah.
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely. She's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, She's so high, high above me.
A first class ‘n’ fancy free, she's high society, she's got the best of everything. What could a guy like me ever really offer? She's perfect as she can be, why should I even bother --- Aha
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely she's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, she's so high, high above me
She comes to speak to me, I freeze immediately, 'cause what she says sounds so unreal, Somehow I can't believe, that anything should happen I know where I belong and nothing's gonna happen, yeah ah ah
'Cause she's so high, high above me, she's so lovely she's so high, like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite Uh, hu, hu, hu, she's so high, high above me --- oh yeah
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I really liked that song until I actually listened to the lyrics. I just find that kind of self effacing, self defeating attitude to be a little too nauseating for me to be able to enjoy it now that I've really listened to the song.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Wow, Noemon, th -- th -- that was really deet. I mean deep. I mean...
*sigh*
'Cause he's so high, high above me, he's so lovely...
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Wow, Bobble's got a crush on me! How do you like that? My first Hatrack crush!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
yeah, Noemon it's got a catchy chorus but the exact same thing happened to me.
I much prefer this (and I suspect many girls would as far as the attitude of the writer goes)
quote: Short Skirt, Long Jacket By Cake
I want a girl with a mind like a diamond I want a girl who knows what's best I want a girl with shoes that cut And eyes that burn like cigarettes I want a girl with the right allocation Who's fast, and thorough, and sharp as a tack She's playing with her jewelry, she's putting up her hair She's touring the facility and picking up slack I want a girl with a short skirt, And a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong jacket
I want a girl who gets up early I want a girl who stays up late I want a girl with uninterrupted prosperity Who uses a Machete to cut through red tape With fingernails that shine like justice And a voice that is dark like tinted glass She is fast, thorough, and sharp as a tack She's touring the facility and picking up slack I want a girl with a short skirt, And a long, long jacket
I want a girl with a smooth liquidation I want a girl with good dividends At Citi Bank we will meet accidentally We'll start to talk when she borrows my pen She wants a car with a cup holder arm rest She wants a car that will get her there She's changing her name from Kitty to Karen She's trading her MG for a white Chrysler le barron I want a girl with a short skirt, And a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong jacket
You know, I'm familiar with that one too--I know I am, I recognize the lyrics--but for some reason I'm hearing Lou Reed performing it when I read over it in my head. To the tune of "What's Good" from his Magic and Loss album.
quote:Life's like a mayonnaise soda And life's like space without room And life's like bacon and ice cream That's what life's like without you
Life's like forever becoming But life's forever dealing in hurt Now life's like death without living That's what life's like without you
Life's like Sanskrit read to a pony I see you in my mind's eye strangling on your tongue What good is knowing such devotion I've been around - I know what makes things run
What good is seeing eye chocolate What good's a computerized nose And what good was cancer in April Why no good - no good at all
What good's a war without killing What good is rain that falls up What good's a disease that won't hurt you Why no good, I guess, no good at all
What good are these thoughts that I'm thinking It must be better not to be thinking at all A styrofoam lover with emotions of concrete No not much, not much at all
What's good is life without living What good's this lion that barks You loved a life others throw away nightly It's not fair, not fair at all
What's good ? Not much at all
What's good ? Life's good - But not fair at all
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Not even vaguely similar songs in mood or anything--I don't know why my mind did that.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I'm so out of the popular music loop anymore - I don't recognize ANY of these.
Whatever happened to Airsupply?
"I'm all outta love I'm so lost without you . . . "
You know - the codependent, icky, make you squirm schmooze stuff . . .
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I disagree with the circa 1982 iteration of myself on a lot of issues, but one thing that we have in common is our loathing of Air Supply.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote: She's So High Above Me Artist(Band):Fastball
I thought that was by Tal Bachman
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
I think you're right. That was my first thought too (well, not about Tal Bachman, but about it not being Fastball). I didn't think Fastball put out such crap [/opinion].
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(I have no idea about who the artist actually is or isn't I just googled "high above, Aphrodite and Joan of Arc and found the lyrics.)
The metaphors (or are they similes, I never remember,) in that song (Noemon's)are similar to the first one. But the way I interpret that song is otherwise just your standard breakup pining song. Though I guess you could look at it as pining for someone that he doesn't think he can get.
But the two songs that I posted are more specifically about the kind of women that they want.
They both want powerful, women, look at the names in the first one: Cleopatra, Joan of Arc, Aphrodite (one of the most powerful goddesses)
None of those women whether mythical or historical were helpless. They were powerful in their own right though they gained their power in different ways. But the first author views them as "high above" him and unattainable. Interestingly, the only one of them who is a virgin is Joan of Arc, the other two were pretty down and dirty. Cleopatra used sex to gain more power (would you want a woman like that?) And Aphrodite had many liasions that normally ended up with the guy getting a broken heart.
Maybe what the song is saying is that it is easier to have someone high above you and on a pedestal than it actually is to put yourself out there and risk your emotions. But you don't get anywhere without taking risks. I personally don't have a lot of patience for self pity even in myself. (If I realize I am indulging in pity for myself then I get mad, and the anger overwhelms the pity.)
But look at the second song. He knows exactly what he wants. The first thing he talks about, despite the title, is "I want a girl with a mind like a diamond." And he goes on to describe her. He knows what he wants and why, and it seems like he realizes that if he gets her, she isn't going to stop what she's doing. He wants to come along on the adventure and he's figured out a way to approach her.
It doesn't ever indicate any fear or self pity in the way he talks about or approaches her. He knows he is going to have to work, to get her to notice him. But that is exactly it, he is working to get her to notice him. He's not sitting on his rear whining about how lofty she is and how he can never measure up. His whole approach to the situation is entirely different (and refreshing IMO).
We were having a discussion about something similar at KamaCon (that bugs me personally) People percieve me to be more intelligent than they are because of the manner in which I speak. I don't mean to use big words, I just read so much as a kid they pop out without thinking about it. I have consciously toned it down, but I wasn't doing that at Kama Con so much because I knew people would understand me. I have friends, both here on Hatrack and IRL that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt are smarter than me, and they still won't believe me. It drives me crazy, that they (both male and female) put me up on this "intelligent" pedestal, high above them.
Steve's the only guy I've known who has never done that. Guess it is why I'm with him.
AJ
(and that whole diatribe doesn't mean I know how to spell the word "intelligent" right the first time either...)
[ August 16, 2004, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I don't mean to use big words, I just read so much as a kid they pop out without thinking about it. I have consciously toned it down, but I wasn't doing that at Kama Con so much because I knew people would understand me. I have friends, both here on Hatrack and IRL that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt are smarter than me, and they still won't believe me. It drives me crazy, that they (both male and female) put me up on this "intellegient" pedestal, high above them.
First, please, please believe me, Banna, when I say that I'm really talking only about myself here, and not trying to imply anything about your.
When I was in my early to mid 20s, I would have said the exact same thing (minus the Hatrack bit, because I hadn't discovered the place at that point). In fact, I did say it on a number of occasions, and journaled about the frustration I felt about it. In retrospect, though, I think that what I was actually doing was unconsciously wrapping myself in the aura of apparent intelligence through my choice of words and sentence structure. I did have a lot of people snowed into thinking that I was brighter than I really was. Basically, I was scared of people, and was used to using my intelligence as armor, and of magnifying my apparent intelligence as a way of making the armor look more imposing. Interestingly (or uninterestingly) enough, I privately thought that I wasn't all that intelligent (probably because I was brought up in a family where intelligence was the most highly prized trait, and my brother was the one recognized as a genius). It was only after I let go of all of that and just accepted myself for who I was that I realized that I was actually much more intelligent than I'd ever given myself credit for, although also much less intelligent than the persona I had projected in the past.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Actually, Banna, the lyrics I posted are about a guy (Lou Reed) mourning the loss of a friend that had recently died of cancer. I seem to remember that a number of his friends died shortly before he made that album, and that the whole depressing thing was a response to that. I may be misremembering though--it may have just been the one friend.
[ August 16, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Wow, that is fascinating Noemon. I never thought of it that way because it was so foreign from my experience. If I actually donned my "intelligence" as an armor or a costume, I'm sure I could sound 10 times more "intelligent" (although considerably stuffier) than I do now. If anything I have put on the armor the other direction and consciously tried to alter my speech from its natural form in order to not seem so stuffy.
I hope I'm more than a brain on legs. I have had to fight the people that want to say that I am so so smart, in order to get them to see me as a human. The people who have been my friends IRL for any length of time eventually come out of their awe and realize my humanity. (and they are much better friends once they do) "Pulling an AJ" in their lingo means they've tripped over something and fallen flat on their face or that their Velveeta has taken on a life of its own and escaped the pan (though so far it has only done that to me) or any number of other Inspector Clousseau type debacles has happened to them.
Honestly, I'm glad they invented the term. Because it meant they saw me as a person with flaws like anyone else, and they weren't intimidated by me anymore.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
In that context it makes much more sense Noemon, I was thinking it was a semi-schmaltzy romantic song from the context of the thread.
AJ
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You would think that from the context, wouldn't you? The wildly different subjects of the two songs was part of the reason I was so surprised when I heard that Cake song being performed by Lou Reed in my head. I'm still not having any luck pulling up the *actual* rendition of the song.
[ August 16, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, it's interesting--the other thing that people knew me for, other than being very intelligent, was bumbling around, tripping, dropping stuff, having credulity-straining accidents and the like. Part of a script I was playing out, I think, because I'm not really that way anymore. Isn't it funny how we had these things in common, but had completely different--polar opposite, really--motivations for them?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
In defense of High Above Me (or whatever it's called, I'm too lazy to scroll up) it isn't really whining. I hear him as dreamily singing about to the sky, not whining to his friends. A lot of people go through the pedestal phase where you crush on someone and hold them up to lofty ideals. And there's nothing wrong with figuring out what you want; you quickly learn what a real person is.
And, as I've said to you before in a much different context, banna, sometimes a dream is much more valuable to you than the reality would be (yes, I realize it can be unhealthy when taken to a point). I just remember my first crush (Charina, starting when I was 12 and for several years after that). I knew nothing about her but had her up on this huge pedestal in my mind. I never made a move, and don't regret not doing so for a second. Having a secret crush can be a lot of fun and it made me happy to dream about. In many ways I really miss the feeling. Ah the heart, she follows no rules *le sigh* (not that Noemon doesn’t count) That feeling is what this song makes me think about (or would, if I liked the music enough to make it through the first verse).
So, basically, you let your experiences colour the song your way and I'll let mine colour it my way, you bitter, wizened old witch
And yes, Cake is still cool.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Lol, and I know that part of the reason why I'm so klutzy is because I had so many ear infections as a child, it has affected my sense of balance. When I'm in a medium like the water where balance doesn't matter as much, I'm actually graceful.
(Though people have told me to make me feel better that whatever tumble I just took was the most graceful fall they'd seen in a while.)
AJ
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
How about Anne Murray "You Needed Me"
"You placed me high . . . upon a pedastal So high that I could almost see eternity You needed me You needed me . . . "
Not sure what to think of that one - my mom and I used to sing that sone together delivering the Sunday newspapers on her route . . . it was one of the few times we felt connected -
hmmm, wanders back off to work . . .
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
But BtL, given the "nice guy" context of the thread, I suspect many of the people that we are referring to as "nice guys" are stuck in the pedestal phase, and can't find, beg, borrow or steal a ladder. Or find a slide to get her down from it. Being on a pedestal gets pretty darned uncomfortable. And since I have no balance I'd just as soon fall off it as be stuck up there anyway.
AJ
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Sometimes they come down to you for a hug and some good pizza pie.
Hobbes Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
pizza pie?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
This is ancient history, but:
quote: And a "nice guy" doesn't try to break a relationship in order to have the girl. Me, if I hear a girl I'm interested in already has a boyfriend, I back off immediately.
This seems to me the difference between a nice guy and a Nice guy. Wouldn't a truly nice guy, if he thought you were with a dork, say so and have no compunction about splitting the two of you up, if only to save you from the dork? But a Nice guy is too afraid of rejection. Not to say m_p_h is Nice . Of course, he was at BYU where leather wearing alcoholics are in relative short supply.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Or pizza pi, depending on the girl.
Hobbes Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
You know, I'm the exact opposite in water. I have a really good sense of my personal space. I can dance, I have good running form, I juggle. I just generally move well. As soon as I'm in water my limbs don't move as I'd expect them to and I get completely thrown off. You'd never guess I've got 10 years of swimming lessons under my belt. I just can't make my arms and legs move properly. It's unbelievably frustrating and makes me sympathize a great deal with those who have the opposite problem.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Lol, well thank you for your sympathy BtL.
Back to the subject. I understand what you mean about the dreams and the "pedestal" phase. But the problem is that dreams can get stagnant and mucky and turn into nightmares even in beautiful settings.
AJ
(and stagnation in general in people just ticks me off)
[ August 16, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Darn it, woman! You know I agree with you on the lameness of nice guys. But this was my one and only shot at appearing sensitive for the ladies. And since I wasn't at KamaCon to ply my charms in person this thread was all I had left.
I curse you! I curse you with fast snails! Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I didn't know you agreed with me... where did you say that?
AJ<--- a literalist
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Sure, lots of people get stuck in the dream phase. But that's a sign of an underlying problem, not with having the dream in the first place. There are plenty of things in life that turn sour if you stick around them for too long, dreams are just one that most people seem to have very little patience for.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I'm pretty sure there are several posts in this thread where I say that "nice guy" means "me" and the "jerks" she's going out with are "not me." Granted there are some mental acrobatics involved to get me to agree with your Whiny-Singer-Boy post, but they aren't complicated leaps. Heck, I'm sure even I flip turn would get you there Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
pooka, it was me who said that. And I wasn't talking about breaking up relationships with a "jerk". If you take another look at that post, I was talking about specific situations that did actually happen, where guys or girls (yeah, guys don't monopolize this) took advantage of the fact that the other person had a long distance relationship. And by that, I mean one was here in France for his or her studies, and the other one was back in Romania. So they got to see each other three times a year, or even less. That's what I'm talking about. As I've also said in that previous post, these things couldn't have happened without everybody's approval, but it still seems to me like taking advantage of the other person's sucky situation.
As for splitting someone from a "dork", as you said: yeah, you can do that if you really care abuot the person. But ! Do you go on afterwards and take advantage of all the emotions that result from a break-up ? Do you make your move then ? I think that's a pretty lame thing to do. I know it's walking a really thin line there, as helping someone get out of a bad relationship would automaticly raise you in his/her eyes. But still...
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think dreams can inspire. Without dreams the world would be insipid. It isn't having the dream that is bad in and of itself. It is allowing the dream to run your life, or become so unattainable that you despair. At that point you have a choice. You either relinquish the dream (sometimes it is gradual and you don't realize you have until after you've done it) or you start working to meet the goal. Wallowing around in despair is highly unproductive, and that is the bit that I don't have patience for.
AJ
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote: A lot of people go through the pedestal phase where you crush on someone and hold them up to lofty ideals.
Tsk. I'm a man, Bobble, just a man, with all that that implies. Besides, there's things about me you don't know, Bobble. Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you...shouldn't understand.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
I remembered a book I wanted to tell everyone about for quite awhile, and especially after this and all the other nice girls/guys threads started. It's called "Essays in Love" by Alain de Botton. It's in English in original (the author lives in London).
It's quite an interesting book, it wants to be a novel but it is full of common sense philosophy. I found myself agreeing with so many things I read in there, I've done so many of them (good or - especially - bad), that I felt like reading my life journal.
So read it. Who knows what you'll find in there that you knew all along, but never had the words for ?!
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Ralphie!
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