2. fallow left a post that needs some babysitting/change-du-jour that is not being kept up.
M.T.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If you want to be permitted back, why not E-mail the mods?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
cause they always reply.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Are you asking to have your fallow name reinstated? If so, you're asking in the wrong place. Like Tom said, send an email message to the mods.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
He speaks!
What kind of "scientist?"
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Fallow, I'm quite sure that many people would be interested in reading a landmark from you. What thread are you referring to that needs babysitting?
Glad to have you back. No more trouble, ok?
space opera Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*hugs for Fallow*
yay!
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Eventually there was going to be someone who would have little enough respect for the mods that they would circumvent their ban and come back. It never occurred to me that we would congratulate them for this, though. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Blacwolve, it happens all the time. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. If they continue misbehaving, the mods will continue to ban them each time. But there are several people here, even reknown ones, who have been banned and returned under a different name. I, for one, welcome fallow back. And I would love to hear a landmark from him.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hatrack is nice and incredibly accepting. Short of mass murder and pedophilia, I think just about anyone would be welcomed back by someone. It's a lovely quirk of this place.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I'm going with blacwolve on this one. It doesn't matter who it is, if someone is planning on changing the way they act so that they can be accepted back, a far more respectable thing to do would be to explain that to the mods and ask them to lift the ban. If that can't be done, I'm not sure why I should expect that someone will behave differently.
That doesn't mean that I would chastize or be rude or unwelcoming to fallow in particular, I just question the method.
edit: speeeling
[ August 31, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Nooo... I'm on Katie and Bev's side on this one.
*draws line in sand*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Are bev and I on the same side? I think it's very tacky of fallow to return without some sort of change promised or some explanation that it won't be the same, but it's a lovable quirk of our community that he'll be accepted anyway.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Darn it, woman, you're mussing up my line! People can't be with us or against us if you keep going around introducing areas of grey.
*hands on hips*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You're so cute when you're angry.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Keep in mind, fallow generally is only here late at night, and probably has not seen any comments in this thread yet.
I have not seen any evidence that he isn't going to request to the mods that he receive his name back. In fact, this thread seemed to be an indirect, perhaps misguided, way of doing that. And if he does, I assume he will give them his promise/explaination. It is not for me to judge. The mods seem pretty forgiving as well. If fallow offended anyone, that is between him and the person offended.
Not only that, but we have no idea what was said to fallow if anything. Do you know for a fact that the mods told him to never come back? Do you know anything about what happened? I don't.
I withhold judgement on this issue and I think others should do the same. If you have an issue with fallow personally, email him. He is quite approachable, in my experience.
Edit: The mods are not "all powerful". There are some things that cannot be done. A deleted thread or post cannot be restored even if they themselves deleted it. Is it even possible for them to restore a name that has been banned?
[ August 31, 2004, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
*pushes Bev off his side of the line*
Nevermind, you aren't on this side because you're working with some *other* line.
PS: Who do you think MT is?
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I believe Micheal Thompson is Fallows real name. If he were to come back, I think he should use he's real name, it kinda removes the mask that he liked to tease people from behind.
Tyler DeLong
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Whether or not it is his real name, it is the Fallows of posts past.
Whether or not he's going to behave himself is unknown at present.
-Trevor
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
The above post is truly interesting -- and amusing. Remove Fallow's mask! Expose the man! Let us see him -- and then he will not have the will to mock us!
Please.
I'm sensing that he probably pissed you off,but it just sounds weird: "it kinda removes the mask that he liked to tease people from behind."
Whatever.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Nope, Fallow never pissed me off, I just find it is much easier for peopel to forgive a person, and Micheal Thompson is a more conviencing name for a person than Fallow, and on top of that, the name fallow will never be treated with respect around here, he's better off to have a diffrent screen name.
I hope more people find him amusing this time around.
I think I'm just in a weird mood. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: Eventually there was going to be someone who would have little enough respect for the mods that they would circumvent their ban and come back.
I have no opinion on the issue being debated here, but I thought it worth pointing out that fallow has actually done this before.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
To me Fallow was sometimes annoying but never offensive, but I didn't see nearly all of his posts. If he has done this before and I don't know either way, why do we still refer to him as Fallow as opposed to his original or real name?
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
Maybe he likes going by Fallow. It is a catchy name Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
He disappeared for a while and we got to know him as fallow before he mentioned who he used to be. Maybe some of the people who considered him friends knew.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
As far as I know, this is his first trip back...if you don't include .....damn, now I can't remember his first screenname...lol...
fallow (or whatever you will be called now) I would follow the excellent advice above and e-mail the mods if you want to come back.
They probably won't allow you to come back as fallow, but they might give you another chance if you seem sincere.
Kwea
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
fallow was flish and filleted (but not fil, IIRC--but then, I could never keep all of them straight) before. He was actually banned his very first night here, and he created a new screen name that very night to come back and criticize his banning. As I recall, he went through two or three screen names just that night. *shrug*
Posted by Khal Drogo (Member # 6786) on :
*Has a Kerry moment and agrees with boths sides*
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I believe Micheal Thompson is Fallows real name.
Yes, it is. And it does seem rather more upfront of him to use it.
quote: He was actually banned his very first night here, and he created a new screen name that very night to come back and criticize his banning. As I recall, he went through two or three screen names just that night. *shrug*
I would like to point out that many who have had less-than-stellar beginings on Hatrack have adjusted and done very well for themselves. Some people here have been offended by fallow. Some have just been annoyed that he hasn't shown his true self. Who can say what he will choose to become given time?
[ August 31, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
To clarify, it is the disrespect being shown towards the mods decision that I dislike. I personally don't really care about Fallow one way or another.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Kal Drago, if you were having a Bush moment we would be able to prove you were here at all...
Or the grammar Nazis would kill you before you could be understood...
Kwea
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
blacwolve, again, you don't know what the mods said to him. Well, at least *I* don't know. And how do you know he has not already spoken to them and come under another name because the old one is impossible to ressurrect? I'd like to see some benefit of the doubt here.
[ August 31, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
This is between the mods and fallow/michael/flish/filetted.
As a guest here, I support whatever the mods decide to do. It's their house, their rules.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
^ What Bob said.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I've seen alot of different characters here- many from the same poster. I think that if the mods choose to ban a "character", that doesn't necessarily mean that they're banning the person.
From what I've seen, they are more interested in what is actually placed up for public view than they are in who is doing the placing.
"fallow" was a very specific character with a specific set of dialogue. If Michael chooses to become another character, I think that it should be up to the mods to decide whether or not that character is suitable to Hatrack.
Folks, if he wanted to be rude and sneaky, he could have just come in under the character "XYZ" and none would have been the wiser except the mods.
Let the mods decide if the character "Michael" is to their liking. And you all can decide for yourself whether it is to yours.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: I would like to point out that many who have had less-than-stellar beginings on Hatrack have adjusted and done very well for themselves. Some people here have been offended by fallow. Some have just been annoyed that he hasn't shown his true self. Who can say what he will choose to become given time?
You posted this directly after quoting me, but I'm not sure what part of what I said you are replying to. I already said I was not taking a position on this whole issue of returning or not. I just posted what information I knew because I saw people arguing on different sides who didn't seem to know this much.
I have been straightforward about my opinion of the character of "fallow" elsewhere. If, as you say, michael thompson returns as someone who is not routinely insulting to posters, well, heck, I think that'd be great. Who knows, maybe he could change my opinion of him--not that he has any reason to care what I think; I don't run the joint.
So, I emphatically agree with Khal Drogo. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Icarus, I was not so much responding to you in your position as to the information that you gave. You explained what you knew, that he didn't start out well. I was speaking to all when I said that I think that (and more recent offenses) can change into something better.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Okay. I getcha.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Do we really want someone is comfortable shifting personas from offensive to decent? What kind of person is capable of separating them. Someone who is okay with making people upset shouldn't be allowed to just say that he's taking on a new personality that doesn't happen to insult people. I'm struggling putting this into words, it just makes so little sense to me.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
I thought maybe a landmark from Fallow would have been a cool thing, but having never written a landmark myself, I'm not in a position to expect one from someone else.
I set out to write a landmark a couple of times, but I found myself not wanting hugs so much as wanting to know what Hatrackers had to think about things that I had encountered. From what I've seen of most landmarks, couching my experiences in the form of a landmark would not have resulted in much discussion. Landmarks are viewed as sacred ground to be preserved for posterity and not as a place for disagreement. So I turned my would-be landmarks into questions, and I got plenty of good feedback, and I saw my experiences in a new light.
I think if you let your true self shine through in your posts that you should never need a landmark. Kama, among others, would be a good example of someone who lets her true self come through in her posts.
I guess being a wierd and mysterious poster could be fun too, and you'd eventually need a device such as a landmark if you wanted to let everyone know who you really were.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Hey, if it works for him.
To be fair, I think most of us have the capability to know when we're being offensive.
It's just that we have the good taste not to do it. Most of the time.
-Trevor
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
skil, I agree and disagree with you regarding landmarks. I think that they do tend to become hugfests and stifle conversation, and so I have come to agree with your notion that if you want feedback, just ask what you want to ask, or say what you want to say, and don't refer to it as a landmark.
However, I don't agree with your statement that if your true self shines through in your posts you don't need one. I think they can still serve the same purpose they came to serve when Moose started the tradition: I know this person because of how he/she shines through his/her posts, but now I have a chance to learn how this person came to be who he or she is. It;s tthe story behind the story. Just look through the archives. I am fascinated with the life stories of some of the people I have gotten close to here, and even more so the people I have come to know well without having had a chance to get as close with. It's like a Speaker for the Dead thing, but it's a living person Speaking his or her own life. Look at how powerful many of us have found Space Opera's landmark. (Which is not to say that a landmark has to be confessional. There have been plenty of beautiful landmarks that were not.)
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
It may work for him, it doesn't work for us.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
everyone has been rude of offensive at one time or another. The problem with not accepting that is that you ignore all possibility of redemption...not that I am saying he needs redemption, just that he has the chance for it the same as we all do.
I have said things to people that I didn't realized hurt them...but I have also gotten pissed off and said harmful things intentionally form time to time. Not so much here, but IRL.
Just because I get pissed, or defensive, or whatever doesn't mean that I am always that way, or that is all I am capable of being.
I am NOT advocating for fallows return, not specifically....I could go either way on it, to tell you the truth. I use to talk to him late-nite once and a while, and only had a problem once or twice. But I did see some really bizarre, and sometimes hurtful things that were said, and I didn't like that.
What I am saying is that everyone deserves more than one chance, is they are truly sorry for their behavior. fallow has had that, and more...but if michael is allowed back, then as long as he has learned from his mistakes and tries to do better...
Why not?
If he lapses, they could always ban him for good.
Kwea
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
One of the good things about the landmark tradition is the idea of archiving threads so that they don't drop off the last page. If I started what I considered to be a really important thread, and if I thought that thread meant a lot to other people as well, I would want to see it preserved. I'd probably save a local copy for myself too.
Perhaps the best thing about landmarks is that newbies can jump right in and get to know people quickly by reading their landmark.
I do think there should be more room for give and take in landmarks. (If Fallow ever posts one I'm sure he'll get a lot.) I found a couple of things in Space Opera's landmark that I wanted to know more about, but I was afraid that by asking I might spoil the snapshot. I've asked questions in others' landmarks and received good answers, but I'm always afraid in a situation in which the landmark poster has exposed part of his personal life; I'm always afraid of digging deeper than the poster wanted to go.
Fallow's main offense seems to have been mucking up others' landmarks. Maybe if we save the landmark thread for hugs, and then spawn a cut-and-paste thread of the landmark for give and take (and mucking)...
Landmarks often deal with important issues, and there ought to be open discussion.
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
<- not my place.
but it seeems reasonable.
mallow
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
mallow:
Once on a family campout my brother withdrew a flaming mallow from the fire and quickly brought it up to his mouth to blow it out. The flaming, gooey mess flew off the stick and stuck to his forehead, where it continued to cook. My brother let out a howl and flipped over backward in his folding chair. We pinned his flailing arms and scraped the mallow off his head with a chunk of tree bark and threw the mess back in the fire. He's still got a scar.
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
skil,
ah, the marsh-mallows. *recollects young sisters' trying to fit babytalk verbiage to the sweet spectacle of the campfire and icky sticky gooey mess*
now that you mention it, mallow's not such a bad moniker.
mallow
PS. you're a treat!
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Are we ready for s-more?
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
prolly naught.
My neighbors have borrowed all my foil.
mallow
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
NO.
Also, though I do agree that you (fallow) had a disconcerting habit of insulting people in very veiled terms, I think you should have the right to come back.
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
Ryuko,
fallow did insult. fallow, also, was insulted.
mallow (liking the ring of it!)
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I never insulted you...
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
ok, but that's a shipload of whiners out there that cain't tell a troller from a trawler, cain't steer clear of the polyphonic-hangups.
well, never you mind, lass.
*grimaces*
needs a new name...
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Suppose a mallow on the lam posted a landmark while all the roasters with sharp sticks slept...
Naw, better wait for the mods and moms to make up their minds.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Guys, I should point out that CONTINUING to dole out veiled insults is probably not going to get you what you want.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I found a couple of things in Space Opera's landmark that I wanted to know more about, but I was afraid that by asking I might spoil the snapshot.
I don't think you would. I think if you post something, you don't mind talking about it if people want to know more. If a questioner pushes to close to a personal boundary, you can always say so. Now, that all goes for questions designed to get to know a person better, or learn from their experience. The only thing I think IS definitely out of line is demeaning or belittling the person whose landmark it is. I think discussing legitimate issues raised would serve to make a landmark alive instead of a dead testimony. I know I tried in both of my landmarks to morph them into discussions of particular issues, recovery and fear of death. In my second one, I specifically asked people how they face this fear or what their perspective on it was. I didn't succeed in getting a discussion started, which is why I agree now with what you posted before about landmarks versus discussions, but I sure wish that discussion could have taken place.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
*agrees with Icky* I think questions are always good. There is nothing wrong with seeking to understand or clarify. Skillery, you are more than welcome to discuss/ask anything in my landmark thread; I'll let you know if it hits too close.
By the way, I LOVE how Icky described a landmark as a speaking done by the individual. I too, find it fascinating to discover how a person became who they are presently.
space opera
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I'm torn on landmarks. I mean, I like them and all -- I mean I'm torn on the ongoing conversation portions. I understand the desire of some writers that the writing be taken for what it is and not questioned. But I also understand the desire for others to dig more deeply into subjects, especially here on a public forum.
I certainly didn't mind having questions asked on mine. Others leapt to my defense before I did on some of the questions. I was a little disappointed at questions like "Why did you have to write another one?" and "Why did you make this up?" though, because questions like those really don't spark a good conversation.
I don't post in most landmarks, though I certainly read them. I did at first, but then there were so many of them. I think there's an extra dollop of ownership in many of those threads, and I suppose I was more avoiding hurting someone's feelings because I didn't post in their landmark but did post in someone else's. My safest bet was to refrain in all of them. Perhaps that's not the best way, though, because there have been some discussions that develop from landmarks in which I might be interested, but had already decided to stay out. Maybe I'll change. I guess we'll see.
--Pop
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: I was a little disappointed at questions like "Why did you have to write another one?" and "Why did you make this up?" though, because questions like those really don't spark a good conversation.
That's a distinction I was trying to draw, aleit less successfully. That insulting posts are especially inappropriate in a landmark (i.e., more than they would be elsewhere) but questions meant just to further the conversation in a spirit of openness rather than criticism are, I think, always appropriate.
-o-
I have posted in most of them. In fact, out of curiousity, I went back and looked in the archives one day. Almost every serious landmark thread has at least one post from me. I haven't posted, though, in landmarks written for somebody by somebody else. The only other ones I have missed are landmarks that came during periods when I was away from Hatrack altogether.
Does this cheapen my posts, as though they are going through a motion? I hope not, and I don't think so. In each case, I have expressed an honest feeling. Sometimes it's just "Congratulations, I'm glad you're here," and sometimes they speak to a point the author raised that was particularly resonant to me, perhaps because of my own experiences.
I have heard indirectly of several people who make an active point never to post in them. I can understand this if you are one of those people who dislike landmarks, smileys, and e-hugs. In other words, if you think this is a silly/self-indulgent/worthless tradition and just wish it would die. After all, if everyone did this, the tradition would be dead.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Maybe we should have a standard "I read your landmark" reply.
In this reply you could have several phrases to check off like:
_ Wow, that was beautiful. _ You were so _ lucky or _ blessed. _ You were so brave and strong. _ I really admire you. _ You suck. _ Will you be my friend? _ I totally validate you. _ _ _ Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't think what I do is tantamount to that, because a checklist basically indicates that you did all your thinking long ago and are barely sparing a moment to give some thought to this new landmark. When I reply to a landmark, I am not using some formula. I am thinking at that moment about what I feel like saying, and so even if I write the same thing esentially twice, it is still an honest reaction.
In any case, are you saying you would prefer no response at all to one that, essentially, said "I have read this special post that you poured your heart into. I value you, and I'm glad Hatrack has brought you into my life" and not much more?
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Perhaps I am being cynical, Icarus. I doubt some people's sincerity. Not everyone's, and I can't even point to anyone's sincerity that I doubt.
Papa Moose had the first landmark post, and it was a sincere opening up of his life, for which he got many sincere responses. I think that many other landmarks have been posted as part of tradition, and their replies have also been part of the tradition as a whole. Some people may feel obligated to reply simply so they can show that they, too, are part of the community. Some people may post landmarks in order to garner attention. Some people may feel obligated to reply in landmark posts so that when they post, they will also get many replies.
I guess I also can sometimes feel uncomfortable with the opening up of one's most private inner being and one's past trials to very public scrutiny in order for public validation. And there is pressure in this community for that kind of activity. And when I read these posts, I am torn from the pain these people have gone through and am rendered helpless at the same time. What can I do about it other than offer the pathetic hugs and "Oh, but you are a good person, really." Even sincere, it seems lame.
How many of us are really there for each other? Honestly? How many could actually get up and go help another Hatracker in physical need? How many would? There is so much sentiment of family and community that gives a false sense of real life support. If I died in an accident tomorrow, how would you know? Who would care here? Who here would care what you think? Who would bother to inform the internet community I was a part of? Yes, there are real life friendships that have formed, and people who live near each other. But otherwise, this sense of being there for one another is limited only to words. Words can be powerful, but all too often can be powerless as well. What can we do for the hatracker 1000 miles away who is having surgery on their knee and won't be able to walk for a couple of weeks? For the hatracker who is in constant physical pain, but never complains about it because gaining a few (()) from people who barely know them isn't worth the burden you put on these virtual stranger friends.
I think katharina's situation in Texas is a prime example. Here we have all these Hatrack get togethers, and unless she spends serious money, she can't meet them. I couldn't go to KamaCon because it was out of our financial range and I felt like I had already taken time away from my family (writing retreat) and my husband, who is a much bigger priority in my own life than any of you.
I posted a landmark, and I did put some of my angst in it, but most of you have no idea what my worst sufferings have been and you will never know. Most of you have no idea of my greatest experiences have been, either.
I'm fairly private. Not overly so, but I don't feel comfortable with blogs, either.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:How many of us are really there for each other? Honestly? How many could actually get up and go help another Hatracker in physical need? How many would?
There are people I've met on Hatrack, for whom I'd do this, if they needed me. I'd fly myself all the way from here for them, if I knew it would help. There are very few of these people, and there is a chance they don't care about me as much as I care about them. But there are people for whom I'd do this, even if it would, at present, cost me my job.
[ September 01, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
I'm going to need a special, "really wants to know" graemlin when I ask questions on landmarks. People think I'm mounting an attack and rush to the landmarker's rescue. Some of the rescuers are so earnest that they make me doubt my own sincerity.
We can't do much for each other at this distance, but we can learn from each other.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I whine about living in Texas, but I go other places because I can. The whining is sort of funny because I've never INVITED anyone to come here.
Many, many people have definitely been there for me. You may not feel a part of the support system here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just becuase you wouldn't help out anyone who really needed it doesn't mean no one else would.
You can choose to be part of it or not, but it does exist. I'm sorry we can't do anything more than a few brackets to ease physical pain, and it's not a substitute for a outside life, but it is a real community.
[ September 01, 2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote: The whining is sort of funny because I've never INVITED anyone to come here.
You invited me, if I recall correctly. Or did I invite myself?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*thinks* I did invite you! That's right! And I offered the air mattress.
Dang, that WOULD have been really cool. But there's Dallas and then really nothing else around, and I couldn't have taken off work to be a tour guide for more than a few days, so it made more sense to go NorthEast.
Invitation still stands. I have extra blankets.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There are at least a dozen people on Hatrack for whom I would drop nearly anything. Heck, I seriously considered flying out to Karl's housewarming this weekend, even though we've got a new baby and tickets are running $200 apiece. And I'd like to think that there are a handful that'll do the same for me.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Yes, everyone has a few people they'll do that for, and it is quite valid that people have met here. The fact that we have married and engaged couples who have met on Hatrack attest to that. But it still will never have the power of support that a physical community of similar size would have. We know that. Why else the dreamy speculation of a "Hatrack Commune"?
I'm not saying it can't be a support system. We've all learned important things to help us, like with legal and medical things. And there can be a lot of emotional support. And I've enjoyed some of that support.
Kat,
You say this support system work for me very much? How do you know it doesn't work for me? There are dear people on Hatrack that know things that I will not volunteer to anyone else even in real life, nor post publicly.
As a whole, Hatrack should never replace real life community involvement. Sometimes this can overlap, like when there is clump or people knew each other before they signed up together. But other times, it is a poor substitute for the real thing. It can actually be damaging to real life relationships. And sometimes this damage is subtle, not just like the spouse or kids being neglected because of the time spent on Hatrack. Anytime anyone attaches themself more fully to one community, they withdraw somewhat from another. This can be very healthy, like when the child leaves the family to go to college/get a job/get married. But it can be harmful when posting on Hatrack makes you neglect other things, like work, school, family, and church. And every active Hatracker has done that.
This is why I hate the "Oh, please, don't go!" kind of thing as much as the "Dear Hatrack, you hurt me, I'm leaving" posts. Sometimes it is far better for people to leave this place than to stay.
[ September 01, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
I think I killed Space Opera's landmark thread with my question.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"And every active Hatracker has done that."
Hm. Christy may feel differently, but I don't think I have.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I have set things on hold, but never really put them off if it would hurt something. I even got my wife to post here, because I know she loves a lot of the same things I do, and I wanted her to be a part of this place.
I see your point about how the "relationship of words" here can foster a false sense of security. IRL, often ther is nothing that we can do physically to help one another.
But don't forget that a lot of help comes from being able and willing to listen, and to offer support. Sometimes we don't have anyone who can listen impartially IRL, or we want to discuss things that don't interest others around us...but we can find that sort of discussion here,, almost any time of the day or night.
I feel like I spend a lot of time here, but some of that is novelty to me. This is the first real computer I have ever owned, and I am learning to type (slowly but surely), so I feel I am getting something for my time. I am sure that it will pale in time, but for now it's cool.
Kwea
Posted by michael thompson (Member # 6822) on :
"idly, if frankly, wonders if keyboarding will ever be sanctioned as an Olympic sport, or, at the very least, provide a good photo-op in a run-up to something or other."
- an excerpt from "Stop Whining, Start Winning: A Desultant's End-Game Guide to Life in the Cynocratic Age"
MT
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think that even though my attendance has been flagging a bit, I still consider many if not most of the people here real-life friends.
I was surprised when I went to Kamacon how very easily I fell in with the people there, and how very familiar it all was. I can remember the faces of the people I met at Kamacon better than some people I've known for years. (as acquaintances mind, but still...)
I have a terrible memory for faces and names, but it was easy for me to remember the names and faces of the people I met at Hatrack. :/ I dunno.
If it was within my means to gather to help a friend I met on Hatrack, I would do it. In the meantime I will give my support as much as I can over the ether. Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
I feel blessed having run across the opportunity to tell my story in a place like hatrack. This feels like a very safe place to me and I have a deeper connection with several people here moreso than I do in real life. Even if people seem to flippantly reply with a "cool story, you rock!" and "I'm glad you are here" I appreciate it. I appreciate it because having been here for several years I've learned that most people seem to sincerely care. It doesn't feel contrived because I know what kind of people this community consists of. Do I care what the motivation behind posters airing out in lanndmark threads are? No. Being willing to open up to us in this public forum doesn't take away from the value of your story and how appreciative I am that you are willing to share with me. I can also respect those that would rather keep whatever they want to themselves. To each his/her own.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Tom - As you said, Christy may disagree. However, Christy also married you knowing your connection with Hatrack. That is kind of like knowing your husband has a big thing for football and during football season will be glued to the TV several times a week. However, when the event actually happens, the wife can feel neglected.
I've been trying to get a handle on why some personal posting on Hatrack bothers me and why other personal posting does not. There have been several painful, personal stories that I've appreciated reading because I've seen the strength and goodness of people who lift themselves out of the mire despite everything that has happened to them.
Perhaps it is this. This is a fairly large community. There are several lurkers, I'm sure. Michael Thompson, fallow, flish, whatever is a prime example of how a person can get here: there was some kind of dare or mission from another forum to get some kind of reaction from a forum (I don't remember what it was). These are the kind of people that can view this forum. If you had a class of, say, about 300-500, would you get up on a podium and tell everyone? You know that at least half of those people are good people, some of whom would do anything to help you, some of whom would offer up great emotional support, others who admire and appreciate you silently. But another half of those people are in the shadows some of them reacting with apathy and some of them possibly even heckling you or rolling their eyes. Some turn on their headphones or play their gameboys. Some have other conversations.
This auditorium isn't closed, either. It is open to everybody, whether you think they can get directions there or not.
How many of these people do you really want to give your story to?
Okay, and now here comes some "golden-age-of-Hatrack" whining. When this place was smaller, everyone could be heard easily. Interestingly enough, that I recall, there was actually less personal information being divulged then. The exhange was mainly of ideas and opinions, not personal stories. I think that as more people joined the forum, the psychological need to be heard and not ignored by other members created an atmosphere where people told more about themselves. Making sure we knew them would increase the groups sensitivity so that when they did offer their opinions, they would be respected. This has evolved so that there is a great deal of focus on making sure people feel loved and sustained here. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But it does mean that when there is strong disagreement, people are more likely to take it personally. And when people start taking things personally, they often will cease to distance themselves from the argument and get emotionally involved. There are, of course, always the people who start to personally attack their opponent as well, so that rather than saying "I disagree with this statement and this is why" they say things like "I can't believe you said THIS, you are so wrong, so mean, so misguided, etc."
And if you post something of your own personal actions that may go against other people's moral constructs, you cannot post expecting everyone to applaud your behavior. Posting such on Hatrack is a better way to examine your actions than to ask for acceptance, and invites personal response.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
[ September 02, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Golden age musings are always funny to me because the golden age of Hatrack I remember is usually dependent either one or two people being giving and hilarious (bonduca, Ralphie) or else it's a complete illusion. It all goes in cycles, it always does. The golden ages dependent on a few people being consistently entertaining are, I admit, a blast and I miss them. But they are dependent on the dedication of a few talented people, and it isn't fair to wish for or demand that. They are like rainbows, a splendid surprise and experience but nothing you can count on or be owed.
The board is so incredibly polite now that it's beautiful. A year ago (about?) Baldar was tearing it up. Two years ago Olivia and I were being, in the words of the eloquent Taalcon, "ravenous birds of prey." Was the Golden Age when Ced was here? Or was it during the Great Homosexuality Debates? Maybe the time when everything was about Abortion and Who Would Play Ender.
It's the same board. When the cycles are factored in, it's the same board. What's changed is the cast of characters. Nostalgia of any kind isn't a longing for the time, it's a longing for the person you were, the place you held, and the people around you. That has changed, but it was going to change anyway. It always does.
[ September 02, 2004, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Nicely put Kat. Your post sounds like one of those thoughtful voice overs in a good Wonder Years episode. Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
But kat, remember, I was here when the forum was very small. I first started hanging out here in 1996 or 97, though I mostly lurked then.
I agree there are cycles. And you'll notice I didn't really say it was better back then. Just that it is different.
Cedrios had a fairly negative impact as well.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The internet was barely awake in 1997. It's not just a different board, it's a different world.
If you're not saying it was better then, then what was the point of the Golden Age whining?
Edit: Added a "not"
[ September 02, 2004, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:How many of these people do you really want to give your story to?
I can see why this might keep you from wanting to share information about yourself, but I don't see why it should bother you if other people choose to. Are you just worried that they don't know what they're really doing?
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
There were two million people on by that time... I was a latecomer.
Well, maybe it was the whole internet that was better and that simply rubs off.
No popup ads.
No banner ads.
Your ISP, except for AOL, provided 5 megabytes of storage space to be used in any way you wanted, including hosting a webpage. So no whining about needing money to maintain your homepage.
No email viruses.
Very, very little spam. I can't say no spam, because the first spam email was in 1978.
The growth of the internet was palpable then. I remember being in a small IRC chat room very much like Hatrack about religion. We exchanged so many interesting ideas! But as the population doubled, tripled and the people joining were no longer, well, nerds, the discussion spiraled down to "You are all going to hell!" "No I'm not, stupid bigoted fundamentalist" The people who had made the place interesting drifted away.
Same with TinyTIM. The Blackhole, sure it got funny at times, but mostly you could have the most interesting conversations about philosophy, science, religion, etc. And then it got in an internet guide book. Do you believe there were actually printed books that attempted to tell you where everything was on the internet? Suddenly, a huge influx of "I'm so cool, I'm in the oldest MUSH on the internet" people joined. The Blackhole became a haven for A/S/L and fluff, with some people actively breaking down any serious discussion that began.
And Hatrack DID use to be smaller. There was a time when you could read and reply to everything in an hour, even with a long post. Edit: And maybe I do think that was better.
[ September 02, 2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
They are still there, though. There are still boards that discuss those things, still philisophical conversations, still poetry, still love, still places to discuss ships and shoes and sealing wax, cabbages and kings. Sometimes that place is this board. What you are wishing for still exists, just not in the place you set it down eight years ago. Not only does that still exist, but a million other options for everyone else do too.
If you're upset that Hatrack isn't an exclusive club anymore where everyone knows your name, then you're definitely on your own. That's just the nostalgia for who you were and the place you held. It's fine to feel sorrow for it, but it's not an accurate depiction of the current board.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
You know, Hatrack is so wonderful and unique.
The relationship of words is there... and while it is not exactly the same in real life, it is a reflection of exactly who they/we are.
Like when I hung out with Jenny Gardener. I knew she was smart and cool...but I never realized that she was so playful! We ran around the hotel being silly getting other folk to join in. And Saturday night down in the bar with six or seven of us talking about the world and all the issues and philosophy... that for me was the TRUE Hatrack forum. So fun. And that kind of thing was happening to everybody in all the little groups that spun off.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*nods* I agree, Telpy. Everything Ami's longing for is still here, just with different people in the parts.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Let me boil the long post and my replies down to my point:
When it was smaller, it was naturally more familiar without much purposeful exposition of personal details. As it got bigger, in order to be 'known' by other people, more stories about self were divulged.
And some are more comfortable with one way than the other.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think the coming of AIM changed the dynamic far more than the landmarks. It means the informal getting-to-know you happens off-camera.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Kat -
I was never big on Hatrack and I never tried to be. That isn't what I was longing for. I have always thought that _trying_ to be popular was silly and involved too much pushing other people down to get on top (even if it is not by insulting, but by talking over someone or in the case of a forum, writing a whole bunch of 'look at me' posts) and too much attempt to conform with the majority at the expense of self integrity.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:When it was smaller, it was naturally more familiar without much purposeful exposition of personal details. As it got bigger, in order to be 'known' by other people, more stories about self were divulged.
And some are more comfortable with one way than the other.
Hmmmm... you have a point... Never thought about it like that. But then again I love all this personal sharing... Makes me realize I'm not crazy. And hanging out with intellectual peers is good too.
[ September 02, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
AIM was a good thing, actually. I think it took a lot of pressure off the forum. The spin off forums like galacticcactus, grenme, madowl, sakeriver are also good places simply because they are smaller and the people have been drawn there by commonalities that are stronger than with Hatrack at large.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So what exactly are you complaining about?
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
I'm not complaining. I'm discussing the state of Hatrack. Yes, I've also spoken about things that made me uncomfortable, but I think you are reading far more negativity into my comments than are there.
[ September 02, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Nostalgia of any kind isn't a longing for the time, it's a longing for the person you were, the place you held, and the people around you. That has changed, but it was going to change anyway. It always does.
Just so you know kat, I'm copying that one down. I really, really like it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You were on TinyTIM, Amka? *grin* Who were you?
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
But nostalgia isn't always bad and isn't always wishful.
Vladimir and I look at our early marriage with great nostalgia. And we are so glad we are where we are now.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:The spin off forums like galacticcactus, grenme, madowl, sakeriver
Don't let John catch you calling GreNME a spin-off. He gets very upset.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
I was Amka.
I also have to admit to having spent quite a bit of time creating my room. I was going to create a whole quest world thing. Vladimir was on there too. Shmovkin, I think was his name, and he spent ALL of his time there creating little wandering objects and traps in his room. It is still there. Shmovkin checked about a year ago and some of his ants escaped and are wandering the whole place.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Okay, a disclaimer right now: I know why John created GreNME, and I think it was a great thing to do and I know it had nothing to do with Hatrack. But the forum got populated by a few hatrackers, so there is a group of them over there, so we kind of think of it as sub-community attached to Hatrack. Sorry if that bugs you, John.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Sorry if that bugs you, John.
He doesn't even lurk here anymore as far as I know, so I don't think you need to apologize to him here. I'm just saying that if you call GreNME a spin-off in his presence, he'll probably go off on you.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
off-topic:
Kat said:
quote:The internet was barely awake in 1997. It's not just a different board, it's a different world.
Along that line, The World Wide Web is 35 years old today.
Farmgirl
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You all know what I meant.
Let me rephrase.
The technical writers and designers were barely involved by 1997. When they became involved, the ease of use changed to point that it was worth the time of the general population to get involved.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I've been thinking about this for a few days, especially since I recently posted my landmark. I don't know what motivations other people have for posting a landmark; I only know mine. Truthfully, I posted a landmark for me, not for anyone on this board. Let's call it a catharsis of sorts. That I had such a lovely, accepting place such as Hatrack to post it is a wonderful thing.
I love reading landmarks. As I said in mine, everyone has a story. The stories of people have always fascinated me. Whether they're happy or sad I'm interested and intrigued. It amazes me what often lurks behind a seemingly ordinary person. Hearing stories makes me realize that no one is ordinary at all. They help me appreciate the beauty in people, and most often teach me things about humanity and human connections that I didn't know before. I value every opportunity to learn, just as I value every story I hear.
The only Hatrack I know is the one that exists now. I enjoy it. No matter what I want to discuss, there's always someone up for it, be it science fiction, politics, or parachute pants. Perhaps it's larger than in the past, but change is ineveitable. I've learned so much here and have met some wonderful people. Do they replace my family or closest RL friends? Of course not. However, after KamaCon I definately believe that bonds of friendship develop, and to attempt to cast a value on these bonds is to cheapen them. Hatrack is a place filled with vibrant, intelligent people from all walks of life. I will always value Hatrack for what it is instead of mourning what it is not.
space opera
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Okay, and now here comes some "golden-age-of-Hatrack" whining. When this place was smaller, everyone could be heard easily. Interestingly enough, that I recall, there was actually less personal information being divulged then. The exhange was mainly of ideas and opinions, not personal stories. I think that as more people joined the forum, the psychological need to be heard and not ignored by other members created an atmosphere where people told more about themselves. Making sure we knew them would increase the groups sensitivity so that when they did offer their opinions, they would be respected. This has evolved so that there is a great deal of focus on making sure people feel loved and sustained here. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But it does mean that when there is strong disagreement, people are more likely to take it personally. And when people start taking things personally, they often will cease to distance themselves from the argument and get emotionally involved. There are, of course, always the people who start to personally attack their opponent as well, so that rather than saying "I disagree with this statement and this is why" they say things like "I can't believe you said THIS, you are so wrong, so mean, so misguided, etc."
And if you post something of your own personal actions that may go against other people's moral constructs, you cannot post expecting everyone to applaud your behavior. Posting such on Hatrack is a better way to examine your actions than to ask for acceptance, and invites personal response.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I think you put it quite well, actually. i didn't get that you were really whining...hence the "quotation marks"...
What i got out of that was that you were noting the differences, and that there is a difference or two. i didn't get that you were unhappy here now, or that it was all wonderful back then and you wish it was that way now.
I think it was one of the best written posts I have read here, and I just wanted to tell you that.
BTW, I have been here for a while, but not forever...I remember Ced, and Otaku (who STILL isn't me, and vise-versa... ), and other things that weren't always great. But this place still amazes me, particularly after I go somewhere else and see how people treat each other.
I don't think it always goes in a complete circle, but I do see things that are in common throughout my years here at Hatrack.
There are still plenty of serious discussions...if you want them, and try to remember that some of these people are discussing these things here for the first time.
There are clicks, to be sure, but even the clicks here are more friendly to noobs, both real new people and other hatrackers who don't live near them, than most people ever are at other places.
That for the most part even if you really disagree with someone here, you can see them in another thread and not have to worry about being ambushed.
That people here can make a difference in each others lives, even if they never meet each other IRL.
I would rather be here at Hatrack than any other site I have found, and there is no way in heaven OR hell that I would have sponsored a meet-up for any other group. Nor would I go to one that someone else was having, unless I already knew them from RL. I was so comfortable with Hatrackers that I not only offered to throw the WMASS Picnic, i invited my family and parents to it.....and they loved it.
The first thing my mom said the next day was "I wasn't sure about the whole Internet meeting part, but you have some VERY cool friends! Are you going to do that again before you move?"...
Kwea
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I've been wanting to reply to this issue of people sharing things that perhaps ought to be private, and I have been unable to do so due to the whole hurricane thing.
I think at the heart of this is an assumption that some of the very personal stories that some of us have shared really should have remained secrets, and that seems to me to imply that we are sharing things we ought to be ashamed of. The speculation on the motivations behind this sharing certainly suggest that to me, because there are so many other kinds of posts where it is not necessary to question the motivation at all. The implication here is, These are such dreadful secrets you are revealing, what can you possibly be getting out of it? And then you go looking for motivation, and all that can occur to you is that hard luck stories function as some sort of Springeresque currency.
Without assigning value, I would say that there are people who can feel comfortable sharing very personal details of their lives, and there are others for whom this is impossible. And if you are one kind, it may be impossible for you to identify with the other kind on this, and so your speculations about their motivations may be completely off base.
I may have started the tradition of the TMI-Landmark--I have been told as much before. So what was my motivation? As with Space Opera's landmark, I did it for me. And it has to do with this idea of shame, and what one ought to keep secret. I'd been trying to convince myself for years that I should not be ashamed of things that were not my fault, while also keeping them secret. And so I shared because doing so was a statement that I was not ashamed--that I was stronger than the monsters under the bed. I shared with Hatrack because Hatrack had made me feel safe, but also because of the unknowable. Because of the public nature of the auditorium. It was a mixture of the two. There were people here who would be interested in my story because they were interested in me, and hey, maybe my story could be helpful to somebody. But I was also taking a chance and refusing to let my fear stop me.
Whether it's actually right or wrong, or whether it's a good thing or not, I don't know. As I said, I have been specifically told by people that some things simply ought not be talked about in a forum like this. Every time I see that sentiment, I worry and I wonder. The ashamed part of me gets ashamed again. The assumption that I bared my soul for some Hatrack popularity is particularly humiliating. (You know, people listened to me just fine before I posted my first landmark.)
But then again, facing the possibility that not everyone would approve was part of the point, after all.
Anyway, not all of the landmarks have gone into TMI territory. As a reader of landmarks, I do feel that they flesh out the posters for me, and make it easier for me to see them as more than characters, more than words on my screen. So I guess they do, as Amka suggests, make me a better listener when it comes to those Hatrackers. I just like to think that there is more on the poster's part than this shallow motivation.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Joe- I loved your landmark because it made me realize that your silence on a many a popular subject is as much a statement as when you give voice.
That is a kind of strength that is rare.
The only time I ever felt uncomfortable about the information you gave was when you mentioned how much you love all things Disney. I was uncomfortable because I had NOTHING to add to the discussion. It was my ignorance that made me uncomfortable, not your information.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
I knew when I posted my own thoughts that some people who had posted deeply revealing landmarks would think I was talking about their posts. "TMI" is not necessarily the criteria by which I figure someone is posting their life story to feel more accepted by the group. I sincerely hope that people have received the healing they sought when they posted such landmarks.
Just know that public self revelation can have other, larger repercussions than simply healing for you. It can add to a voyeuristic tendency in the community. It can add to the pain of someone else. People may even get angry at you, even if it is irrational (like wondering if, now that you are an adult who understands that the act was not your fault, have you reported the incident to make sure that there are no other victims? Wouldn't that be where true healing could be had, to stop it from happening to other people? Isn't that a more productive way of purging the shame and pain?)
Of course, there are positive things. It could help someone else heal. It could inspire someone to improve themselves.
It is natural that you would equate shame with secrecy. Secrecy is so often the covering up of evil, and so often enables it. But there is a difference between secrecy and privacy. It is such a fine line. Molestation thrives only because there is secrecy, and it is important that a few stories be shared so that the majority can come to know the nature of that particular enemy. Physical and emotional abuse are the same. But how much is too much?
Why do shows like Jerry Springer thrive? Are we a better society because of it? Does it help us to look down from our own unsteady path to goodness so that we can safely say that we are better people than those?
Just know that no matter your motivations, it will have a very different affect on every person that reads it and it will affect the community as a whole.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't think so. I don't think there's a downside to having a place safe enough to share part of yourself. Hatrackers don't parade their emotions like a badge - at least, not usually. If it happens at all, then it is well within the tolerances of our community to endure a little attention-longing. After all, there's enough acceptance to endure so many other things. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Actually, Amka, I didn't think that you were referring specifically to me, so I'm not personally offended or anything like that. Rather, I realized that your words applied to me, so that prompted some self-examination. And I do tend to use Hatrack as my place for working out whatever is in my mind--because it always can be counted on to ask the tough questions--so I posted my reflections here.
quote: Just know that public self revelation can have other, larger repercussions than simply healing for you. It can add to a voyeuristic tendency in the community.
An example of the tough question/statement. This has occurred to me since posting my landmark, and I have tried to do what I could to ameliorate that effect, such as calling attention to beautiful landmark posts that were not dark or confessional. (If we want to discourage voyeurism, we need to be sure to value people independently of whether or not they expose themselves to our prying eyes.) I don't know if it has done any good or not. I may have inadvertantly contributed to a change in the dynamic here, to making things more voyeauristic. If I damaged the community, I am sorry. It was not my intention.
quote: It can add to the pain of someone else.
I'm not sure I see this.
quote: (like wondering if, now that you are an adult who understands that the act was not your fault, have you reported the incident to make sure that there are no other victims? Wouldn't that be where true healing could be had, to stop it from happening to other people? Isn't that a more productive way of purging the shame and pain?)
I will assume that this is directed at least partially toward me, since it comes after my post on the topic. First of all, I don't think true healing can only come from one source. I don't think there is a distinction to be made here between more and less productive ways to purge shame and pain. (Only whether or not the good accomplished outweighs the possible harm to the community, and I will humbly accept that the jury may still be out on that one.)
To answer the specific question, I have not. I have no evidence of a crime other than my testimony, and it is a crime that is well over twenty years old. (In Florida, the statute of limitations for prosecting sexual assault cases is four years.) I wouldn't even know where to find the perpetrator. From time to time, I have entertained the notion of hiring a private detective to track down the guy so that I could press charges or file suit or something, but that has always been more of a passing fancy than a serious plan. I can barely pay my mortgage, let alone private eyes. I hope that he has been less lucky if he did the same thing to somebody else, and that he has been brought to justice somehow. Is this enough? Again, I don't know. I accept that it may not be, and am open to the suggestion that I should do more.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Icarus,
It is as you said, 20 years ago, and there is not very much you are able to do about it right now. I don't hold you responsible for that.
The issue of how the law should handle it is very complex, compounded as it is by false accusations and what to do with minor perpetrators. It is something of a hot spot with me, and by you replying and me remembering your post, you pressed a button. Sorry.
But it is a very good example of what I'm saying. We have no idea how our stories can affect other people, even people we think we know. The good it can do for us needs to be weighed with the impact it has on the community as a whole. For the community, as Kat said, there can be enough to go around.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Kat,
Both you and I have been hurt in our dealings with people on this board. We've both hurth other people. We've even hurt each other.
I believe, and you may very well disagree with me, that this was less likely to happen much earlier on in Hatrack history.
That is a downside.
We've talked about the advantages, as well. I've been stating that it isn't ALL advantage. There is a cost for everything.
Life, real or virtual, is not all peaches and cream and it never will be.
[ September 08, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*confused* Where did I say that?
Ami, for the record, I completely disagree with what you are saying, and I think it's more than a little destructive to imply that those who share the hard parts of their life in a safe place are doing it solely for the attention.
But Hatrack's a nice place, and it can absorb this bit of destruction that you feel the need to say.
---
quote:Both you and I have been hurt in our dealings with people on this board. We've both hurth other people. We've even hurt each other.
I believe, and you may very well disagree with me, that this was less likely to happen much earlier on in Hatrack history.
No, I don't agree. Are you kidding? I have been horribly hurt on this board, and it was YEARS ago. This current time is as much a Shangrai-Lai as any other has been.
[ September 08, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
You said, I thought (and I may be wrong), that there wasn't a downside. I'm saying that I thought there was. And you are too fast on the draw. I shouldn't have added so many more thoughts to my edit.
[ September 08, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*nod*
If I write your name in parentheses, will you accept that as symbolic of my apology for any negative effect my story has had on you or Hatrack, my esteem for you regardless of how much or how little of your private life you divulge, simply for what you have contributed to this place, and my assurance and hope that there are no hard feelings between you and me?
(((Amka)))
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Rapid posting!
For the record, the above post is my reply to Amka's reply to me.
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Of course, Icarus. You really did have no way of knowing, and I'm not (nor was I) angry at you. Apology very much accepted.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I'm not sure if I understand, Amka.
Say there is a very personal issue I want to share, and I know sharing it will help me a lot. Are you saying I should reconsider whether I really should do this, because there is a chance someone else will be hurt by my posting?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I do not see any bad coming from people sharing their personal stories.
I really don't - I don't know why you object to it other than you don't like the motivations you are making up for them.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote:I prefer to assume the best intentions in people than to assume that something they say is a veiled attempt to insult. And if I'm wrong, so what. I'm still the happier for it, and it is they who must suffer with their negative thoughts.
AJ
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
You got me there. I prefer that.
I never said I was very good at it.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Ok, Amka, as long as we understand each other.
(btw, I'm curious, would you consider my above post passive-aggressive, or agressive? I was debating as to which is was when I posted it.)
AJ
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
I don't think it was passive aggressive, as you were actively pointing out a discrepancy between my actions and my stated prefered course of action.
It is probably 'aggressive' in these particular semantics.
However, even that definition doesn't quite fit since you didn't say something like "Amka is such a mean spirited hypocrite", you simply pointed out a truth.
Does that make sense?
Edit: Oh wait... you did laugh at me. Perhaps that ups the aggressive factor.
[ September 08, 2004, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I guess I found it ironic as much as anything. Just as I see irony in the fact that Rabbit is LDS. You can't really say Mrs. Card gives LDS a free pass as a result.
AJ
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
However, I would also like to state that my comments here have not only been about the motivations of people, but about the consequences as well.
And the motivation of wanting someone to understand you better, and therefore listen to you more or with more respect is not necessarily a negative motivation.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
LadyDove, I am deeply honored by what you said.
You know, I've harbored this fear for the past year that meeting me must have been a real let-down for the SoCal clump, because you all had to go so far out of your way, and then we weren't really up to doing much. So I'm racking my brains out here thinking of how I could possibly be worthy of your repeated kindnesses!
Anyway, thanks. It means a lot to me coming from you. Posted by figgurat (Member # 6839) on :
fallow was a clod. good riddance to spoilt milk, I always say.
fig
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm curious, fallow. Why do you have multiple screen names? When other posters do it, there's usually some joke behind it. But I don't see any real difference in your posting style lately under any of them. So why bother?
(Not that your response will be intelligible to me, but there's always hope, I guess.)
![[Monkeys]](graemlins/monkeys.gif)
![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Rapid posting!![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)