I had an interesting revelation today. In my French class (it's an advanced conversation and phoenetics course, so we have to do a lot of talking), one of the Moroccan students did her presentation on the media. She made a point about how the media represents religions in a way that leads to misunderstanding. She really emphasized the point that people who commit violence in the name of Islam are just as extremist as people who lynch blacks in the name of Christianity. It's a point we've heard often these days.
However, what I was surprised to hear was that before she came to the US, she held the understanding, taught to her by the media, that Americans were not religious at all. She was shocked when she came and lived with a fundamentalist Christian family for a while that they were such devoutly religious people. This struck me as odd because most of my foreign friends are European, and are always mentioning how religious Americans are. It didn't strike me that, in the Arab world, we're seen as entirely Godless. It makes sense, though, because that's exactly what our network television portrays us as.
So here's the question - why do we have the stereotype of being religious loonies to Europeans and Godless monsters in the Middle East? Where do these stereotypes come from, if these people are seeing the same media?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
But we are a nation of religious loonies and Godless monsters.
Seems to me they got it. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's easy. We worship the same God as the Europeans, but do so far more rigorously; to the Europeans, then, who recognize our faith, we appear outrageously faithful.
We do NOT -- effectively -- worship the same God as Muslims, or at least do not believe that we do, and so they do not recognize in us any elements of faith. I'd imagine that if you asked a Muslim to decide whether the USA or the Netherlands were more "godless," he'd eventually choose the latter -- but that's like asking an American whether India or Bali is more religious.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Ah. This makes sense.
Which would be worse - a religious monster or a Godless loony?
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
This is just my opinion mind....
The media portrays religious people as the fanatical minority and the main characters/protagonists as secular.
The bad guys are the religious homophobes, bible thumping extemeists who are the minority (in the media).
The good guys are the secular atheists who are never shown attending church or speaking out positively on conservative issues, but are plagued by the bad guys.
Those views are received and viewed by the different parts of the world, differently.
Also, no religious programming other than Islamic is allowed to be broadcast.
None of them have ever seen a Billy Graham TV special on their televisions. It's against the law to promote any religion other than Islam.
But they have seen Baywatch (which was the #1 show in the world when it was at it's height if I remember correctly)
[ September 24, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: CStroman ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
A large portion of Americans, though, are religious. I think it odd that none of this leaks out into our TV and movies.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I think it odd that none of this leaks out into our TV and movies."
It does, actually.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
This girl is from Morocco, which is, I believe, among the liberal Arab nations. I'll have to ask her if there is any state-sanctioned promotion of religions other than Islam.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
What examples can you think of, Tom?
(I'm quite ignorant on this, not owning a TV)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Touched by an Angel Buffy the Vampire Slayer Charmed The Passion of the Christ The Last Temptation of Christ Jesus Christ Superstar Joan of Arcadia ...and so on.
In fact, I'm genuinely hard-pressed to think of a single show -- with the exception of Star Trek: The Next Generation -- in which any of the main characters were positively-depicted atheists or agnostics.
Characters in TV shows and movies regularly go to church, find comfort in their faith, and surround themselves with Christian (usually Catholic) iconography. If a character without faith is presented in a show, he will almost always FIND faith of some sort by the show's resolution.
The real disconnect is this: the American media is full of Christians, but most of these Christians do not behave in a particularly moral way. Is this a distortion of reality?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It's funny that they're mostly Catholic. Now that I think about movies, I agree with that. Is it because our entertainment is so heavily weighted toward New York City?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
When I think of American TV, I think of Friends and The Simpsons, both of which I see as depictions of atheists/agnostics. Maybe, though, to me, someone who doesn't attend church functions 5 nights a week translates as an atheist.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
The simpsons definetely are not atheists. Friends, never saw it...
Tom's right. Other then star trek, there are no positively viewed atheists or agnostics on television. There may be athiests, but they are usually angry or depressed, and seeking to find faith.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
*missed the episode where the Simpsons go to church*
Although Ned Flanders may count as the token church guy.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote: Tom's right. Other then star trek, there are no positively viewed atheists or agnostics on television. There may be athiests, but they are usually angry or depressed, and seeking to find faith.
Law and Order: All of them. The Practice NYPD BLUE Will & Grace CSI: All of them. ER SCRUBS etc. etc.
Who are the religious main characters in any of those?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It seems to me that most of the characters in most of the shows are not positively identified as atheists, agnostics, or believers. Either they are atheist/agnostic, or their belief doesn't really make much of a difference to their lives.
Take Friends. Religion practically never comes into play for any of the people.
Pheobe is a believer, but is portrayed as a nutcase.
Joey grew up going to church, but I have seen no indication that he actually believes anything.
I've seen no indication about the beliefs of any of the other main characters.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
Oh and also ANY Daytime Soap.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The entire Simpsons family goes to a Protestant church every Sunday. Lisa is a Buddhist, and Apu and his family are Hindu.
Of the "Friends," I believe -- although I'm not sure -- that Ross and Monica are both reform Jews. Monica and Chandler were married, I believe, by Joey, who got himself "ordained" by the Universal Life Church but is himself Catholic. Rachel and Ross had a Christian wedding. And, IIRC, Phoebe is a New Ager. Chandler MAY be agnostic; I honestly have no idea. The key to "Friends" was, I believe, that the characters never actually discussed anything important.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The Simpsons acually go to church quite often, but the only one that ever acts like a believer is Marge.
edit: I forgot about Lisa. You are correct.
CStroman, in those shows you mentioned, most of the people are never identified as believers or not, although Lt. Curtis is definitely a believer.
[ September 24, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Hi Annie!
Actually, the Simpsons go to church all the time, their just not fanatics like Ned Flanders. I love the episode where the church is broke and they sell out to corporations, via advertising.
As far as atheists on TV, isn't Peterson's character, Grissom, on the original CSI an atheist scientist? He comes across well.
[edit: Crap! Too slow again. Good list, Strawman]
But I would agree most atheists and agnostics are portrayed negatively on Amercan TV, except for PBS of course.
[ September 24, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I have to admit, I haven't watched enough of anything to make much comment. (I've seen one season of the Simpsons, two episodes of Friends and three of Seinfeld)
Hi Morbo! Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Maybe most people who are identified as atheists come across negatively -- I don't know, and I'll have to watch closer in the future.
But I still say that most characters in most shows could easily be athiests or agnostic, but are never identified either way.
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote: CStroman, in those shows you mentioned, most of the people are never identified as believers or not, although Lt. Curtis is definitely a believer.
True, but wouldn't the actions of the people help define what their beliefs are?
What do their actions lead us to believe?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
They aren't identified either way, because when push comes to shove... they are portrayed as celebrating christmas with their family, or praying for guidance, or something of the sort.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Their actions lead us to believe that if they are believers, it's a belief convenient enough to not affect their lives in any way we can see.
Which was pretty much my point in the first place.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Tom, you are correct about Monica and Ross; they are Jewish. There have been several episodes that foreground Ross' beliefs (e.g. "The One With the Holiday Armadillo.")
Chad, Grace of Will and Grace is Jewish. That comes up on the show at least once per episode, often more.
I'm reasonably certain that Carla on Scrubs is Catholic.
Judaism was a pretty major repeating theme of Seinfeld, although never in a serious way.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Elaine was an atheist.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Despite being Jewish, is there ever indication that Jerry believes anything?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: with the exception of Star Trek: The Next Generation -- in which any of the main characters were positively-depicted atheists or agnostics.
This is mostly true -- but wasn't there one episode that dealt with some religious ceremony for Lt. Worf? (side-tracking to ST trivia here...)
Farmgirl
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Those Klingon ceremonies seemed more traditional than religious.
[ September 24, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Vera (Member # 2094) on :
The cremonies are traditional, but they aren't merely traditional. Worf absolutely believes Klingon teachings about the afterlife (Stovokor, or however you spell it,) and in the eventual return of Kahless.
And all the Bajorans on DS9, including Kira were deeply religious. And not just the fanatics. The portrayal of the religious conflicts on Bajor was pretty nuanced.
[ September 24, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Vera ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Elaine was an atheist.
Was she? I don't recall ever seeing anything about her beliefs, except insofar as she wasn't Jewish. But then, I didn't really follow Seinfeld that closely.
quote:Despite being Jewish, is there ever indication that Jerry believes anything?
Not that I noticed (again, didn't watch that often), but then, I think that has a lot more to do with the format of the show than anything else. I would guess that there have been very few sitcoms out there that focus deeply on the religious beliefs of the characters.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I would guess that there have been very few sitcoms out there that focus deeply on the religious beliefs of the characters.
You don't have to go very deep to learn if a person believes in God (in any form).
Posted by the master (Member # 6788) on :
If a person can watch an entire season of the Simpsons without noticing, perhaps you do have to go pretty deep before they'll notice.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
They don't have to show a deep belief, just some belief. Almost none of the shows ever talk about the family going to church, any church activity, any type of church participation at all. Nothing about religious education for the kids. Most of the people would be non-practicing Christians. Just look at their behavior. The few times religious ceremonies are show, it seems like it is mainly used to show what hypocrites the people are.
Also, Joan of Arcadia, just like Touched by an Angle, are not Christian. They never mention Christ. You are making some assumptions if you think they are.
msquared
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:You don't have to go very deep to learn if a person believes in God (in any form).
True. But you were making a point before that if the people in these shows are believers, they believe in such a way that it doesn't impact their lives in any way we can see. My point is just that, while that may be true, the parts of their lives that highlight their belief are most likely not the funny parts.
[Edit to include quotation.]
[ September 24, 2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: saxon75 ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Joan of Arcadia, just like Touched by an Angel, are not Christian
While I agree with this statement, I think others here were just talking about whether or not American is seen as religious -- not necessarily limited to the Christian religion.
Farmgirl
[ September 24, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by the master (Member # 6788) on :
*needs to be less of a witch*
[ September 24, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: the master ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hatrack has offered many epiphanies for me, and one of them has been that while the religious tend to look out and see a world that is getting further and further from God, whether it be the government, schools, or the media, non-religious see a world that is far more religious than that, in all the above areas. I just think it is interesting how much where someone is standing effects their POV.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elaine was an atheist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was she? I don't recall ever seeing anything about her beliefs, except insofar as she wasn't Jewish. But then, I didn't really follow Seinfeld that closely.
She dated that one guy that was a Fundie who said she was going to hell. I think that's where she proclaimed herself an atheist.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Ah, I must have missed that one. Not terribly surprising, though, since I missed most of them.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Puddy was great! And that was episode was hilarious too.
When the two of them go in to see the Catholic Priest,
"She's going to Hell" "I'm not going to Hell!" ... "Wait, you're living together but you aren't married?" "Yes" "Well than it's clear, you're both going to Hell".
Hobbes
[ September 24, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Careful Hatrack INFJ #18262! Any more talk about "POVs" and "epiphanies" and we'll all be singing Coca-Cola jingles!
-Bok
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
As a CSI fan, let me toss in my two cents...
quote:As far as atheists on TV, isn't Peterson's character, Grissom, on the original CSI an atheist scientist? He comes across well.
Grissom is a lapsed Catholic; he believes in God, but doesn't care for organized religion.
As for the others, there's no explicit mention of any religion, one way or the other, so I think it's not really accurate to say it's a positive depiction of atheists/agnostics.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Thanks, Megan, I stand (sit) corrected. Hi Muppet! Long time no interface. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Is there something to the fact that most of these shows take place in the public sphere, with the exception of friends-- which made a point not to talk about anything important-- and while religion shapes public discourse, it's not something that is directly appropriate to lord around when one is at the precinct or at the practice. If we are supposed to know characters by their deeds, and Jesus is supposed to know them by their faith, then we make our own judgements by the character's actions, and we can only speculate and the writers can only know the characters relation to organized religion.
On the West Wing, Toby is obervantly Jewish, Donna was raised Protestant, Josh raised Jewish but is rusty, the pollster was Quaker, and you can't get through an episode where the President or the first lady don't wrestle with being Catholic. The irony in that this show is concerns the highest levels of government calls scrutiny. Religion is important in the highest levels and at the family levels, but in the middle, it's something not talked about. And for the most part, while we don't have characters who talk about being in one denomination or another, we do have characters in almost all shows who are concerned about doing the right thing, and not just because it will turn a tidy profit.
It could be the case that once you open the door to strict interpretation of organized religious doctrine, and everyone is fully faithful, the show is over, the show loses it's quality of thought and questioning, the characters become predictable, even ordained, and unless the story concerns someone's persecution, we are without a plot.
[ September 24, 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:Hatrack has offered many epiphanies for me, and one of them has been that while the religious tend to look out and see a world that is getting further and further from God, whether it be the government, schools, or the media, non-religious see a world that is far more religious than that, in all the above areas.
I don't know... as a person of no faith, I look at the world and see it moving further away from God little by little while still having a lot of religion left. So perhaps the two POVs are much the same.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
No problem, Morbo, Welcome back!
Posted by CStroman (Member # 6872) on :
quote: As for the others, there's no explicit mention of any religion, one way or the other, so I think it's not really accurate to say it's a positive depiction of atheists/agnostics.
I would say that it's not a positive depiction of atheists/agnositics.
It's a positive depiction of not believing/or acting in a religious way.
They don't have to be atheist/agnostic. I don't think it's "if their not religious then they are atheist/agnostic" by assumption.
That's just my opinion.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote:The entire Simpsons family goes to a Protestant church every Sunday. Lisa is a Buddhist, and Apu and his family are Hindu.
Just to add: Krusty is Jewish, and in the episode that Lisa converted, Lenny and Karl are also portrayed as Buddhists, I believe.
[ September 24, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Thanks, Megan. Only I fear I will never relive my previous prolix posting, without home access. This is at the local library, where I get 3 hours a day of internet access rationed out.
quote: But I still say that most characters in most shows could easily be athiests or agnostic, but are never identified either way
Mr porteiro head.
Or they could be casual christians.
I think that's a goal of many TV and movie writers: ambiguity in the characters makes them more accessable to the greatest number of people, thus increasing their potential audience.
And, people with deep-seated beliefs are easy to make fun of, that goes back hundreds of years in fiction.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
There is a belief in Hollywood that religious denominations are bad for marketing. If Star Sam of thei show is an Episcopalian, then you will loose audience memebers who believe that all Episcoplains are evil and must be shunned.
Judaism and Catholicism are OK because they are basically (as seen in these programs) non-threatening to others and represent a way of life that is almost exotic in its differences from protestant normality. The TV versionof Exotic is the crust on white bread--not anything as dangerous as a bran muffin.
Other religions, from LDS to Islam, are only seen as being their differences. Monica can be jewish and not effect 19 out or 20 shows, but if Abu is Hindu, it will be a central part of all shows he is a part of.
There have been a few shows that break this barrier and talk openly about religion. These are often considered the best shows. It is one of the things I liked about DS9 as compared to TNG. However, real Earth religions are seen better in the following shows:
Babylon 5, Home Improvement, South Park, The Simpsons,
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I wonder about South Park. They go out of their way to be equally snarky about all possible religions, and any lack therof.
[ September 24, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Except the mormons. Only the mormons get into heaven remember
AJ
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
The more I think about this, the more I realize that the very fact that we can know people and not know what religion they are is irreligious (areligious?) enough for a very religious society to assume that Americans are not religious. Because really, when you're comparing someone who prays five times a day, covers their head in public, and gives a fifth of their money to the church to someone who alludes to growing up in a Catholic household or maybe attends a relative's bar-mitzvah, it's no wonder they're surprised to learn that some Americans are much more religious than that.
And I guess it is a question of point of view. My secular friends (for lack of a better descriptor) think I'm incredibly pious for not drinking while my Muslim friends would probably see that as a minor indication of religious devotion.
The more I ponder it, the more I wonder what kind of indication I give to those I know of my religious beliefs. I wonder how many of them can even tell.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There's always the trusty CTR ring.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
South Park goes out of its way to be snarky about EVERYTHING.
That being said, I really don't think you can just assume that, since the show does not actively show the religious life of the character, it must be populated by atheists. That simply means that their religion is not the focus of the show. Just because you never see a character eat meat doessn't mean he's a vegetarian, especially is there is never a mealtime on the show.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My problem with religion on TV is that religion doesn't seem very important to many (but not all) characters. It's something they do once a week or less, a cultural identity thing. I don't see myself as a "fanatic", but as a "sincere believer". As a "sincere believer", I try to treat others with respect and kindness, be honest, and demonstrate my faith by the way I live. I also believe that there are laws of God which should not be broken. I see them broken constantly on tv shows in which the characters are constantly putting each other down, doing unkind things, lying, and in other ways not internalizing the messages of their religions. So it's not that they don't profess a religion, but that I see them as not living the results of true faith.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:There's always the trusty CTR ring.
True, but I'm always surprised how many people don't know what it is.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Careful Hatrack INFJ #18262! Any more talk about "POVs" and "epiphanies" and we'll all be singing Coca-Cola jingles! [Mad]
Bok
Thanks for making me laugh. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I was sort of kidding, but now I'm wondering. I don't know if my religion is obvious when people meet me - I don't think so. I have mixed feelings about this (what do you mean you're surprised that I'm Mormon??), but I figure I can't control other people's perceptions. I don't hide it if it comes up, but there's nothing on the outside that would indicate me to be.
On the other hand, before I went through the temple, I DID wear my CTR ring - more as a reminder for myself to act like it.
[ September 24, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You don't trip my Mormdar at all, Katie. Then again, a lot of Mormon women don't.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: In fact, I'm genuinely hard-pressed to think of a single show -- with the exception of Star Trek: The Next Generation -- in which any of the main characters were positively-depicted atheists or agnostics.
I can't compete with you all when it comes to current shows, because I don't watch any, but this is quite the opposite of my experience. Most shows I can think of, when religion is mentioned, the protagonists are agnostic lapsed Christians (I say Christian by implication, but even that much is hardly mentioned). They will profess to a belief in "something" but a lack of certainty about what that something is. Sounds pretty agnostic to me. I would agree that atheists are not portrayed positively, but then, atheism is just another religion. j/k
I have specific memories about the "what do I believe" talk coming up on Family Ties and Picket Fences. And pointing to characters who are titularly one religion but never practice it is hardly proof of the premise. I would say such characters are more appropriately termed agnostics. If I were a character on Friends, would you count me as Catholic?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:The entire Simpsons family goes to a Protestant church every Sunday.
[comicbookguy]
Excuse me, but may I di-rect your attention to season four, episode three, entitled "Homer The Heretic". Homer stops going to church (and has the best.day.ever) and is given permission by God to do so. But as the episode rolls on, Homer not going to church makes him a less than holy man, at which point God burns down his house.
[/comicbookguy]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:Law and Order: All of them.
A bunch of the folks on Law and Order are Catholic. I know Stabler is, and I think Briscoe is as well.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
How about this:
Catholism, Judaism, and Islam, all require public practices that are outside of our cultural norm. Just as Christianity becomes an issue when someone on a show gets knocked up, and abortion is on the table.
Since our very society is not in harmony with these practices, it requires these people to think on or reflect on society and their faith, and do so in a public way. If you are a christian, the most important decisions are out of your hands, are already decided, and all you have to do is figure out how to implement it. That figuring out really doesn't make for good television, because it's not dealing with inspiration and thinking on the world, it's dealing with logistics.
For example, what would you rather watch:
Michelango figuring out how to paint the sistine chapel, which ladders to use, what paint colors etc? Or a story about leading Michelango to the inspiration of what to put on the the church sealing? It's the thinking which leads to inspiration that is compelling, not the logistics, especially if the public world is friendly to the idea. So if you have someone who is observantly religious, you can't put him/her in a easy environment, there is not story there. The person is going to do what the Book/Faith tells them, and if they are in an environment where everyone follows the same Book/Faith, so much the more boring.
Someone's religion only becomes interesting, for me as a viewer, if the character cannot comfortably fall back on the rules. But it's much more interesting to watch a character think without a net, having to think on the world especially when more people are involved.
Maybe it's a difference between engineers and artists. Figuring out how to do something is similar, but strangely different, than figuring out what to do. And I'd rather watch someone think on what to do than how to do it. I think that's why free will is such a pervasive topic. Watching someone Choose The Right is awesome, but only when it is surrounded possible wrongs, and then only when that person can't rely on an answer sheet. That's when the story begins.
[ September 24, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Briscoe is Jewish, although they focus more on his alcoholism than on his Faith.
McCoy is a lapsed Catholic who thinks he's lapsed further than he actually has.
Back to Seinfeld, I liked the episode where Elaine was offended that Puddy hadn't tried to save her from hell.
Dagonee
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I've skimmed this thread, and maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone brought up X-Files.
No, I don't mean the supernatural stuff from Spooky Mulder. I mean Scully.
Over the course of the series, the she started reconnecting with the Catholic Church and her own faith. Interesting juxtaposition - agnostic/atheist "I'll believe in anything but God" Mulder vs. Scully the scientist and practicing Catholic.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Going back to the original subject; If you'll recall, Muslims have referred to Christians as "infidel" and "unbeliever" for centuries.
I don't think this has anything to do with the media, it has to do with a mindset that is present in Islam. "If you don't believe in our god, you must believe in no god."
Muslims have a very carefully crafted set of customs that are designed to prevent people from calling their religion into question.
Likewise, Salman Rushdie was under a fatwa because he wrote a book called "The Satanic Verses."
Not because of what he put in the book, but because the title alluded to a rumor that exists within Islam that at one point Satan inserted verses in the Koran, wich calls into question the validity of the entire Koran.
Mentioning this rumor is seen as the ultimate blasphemy, because the premise of the Koran is that it was ACTUALLY written by god, and therefore it is perfect, as opposed to the bible, which was merely divinely inspired.
Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
quote:I've skimmed this thread, and maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone brought up X-Files.
No, I don't mean the supernatural stuff from Spooky Mulder. I mean Scully.
Over the course of the series, the she started reconnecting with the Catholic Church and her own faith. Interesting juxtaposition - agnostic/atheist "I'll believe in anything but God" Mulder vs. Scully the scientist and practicing Catholic.
I was thinking about that the whole time I was reading this thread. I always thought it was an interesting juxtaposition, too. Scully the skeptic believes in God, while Mulder believes in everything but God...
~Jane~
Posted by Elfy of the Avari (Member # 6888) on :
I don't really know if this is the place I should post this, but here's something I really don't get: I am a skater, and I am proud. But one day, in theatre class(of all places) a girl called me a "devil child" because I was a skater. She said that all skaters hated christmas and all skaters, goths, and punks were going to hell. I do not understand how the way I dress can, in a religion, effect people's opinion of whether I'm going to hell or not. I do not understand why I should have to conform to their view of how people should be. Me, I'm kind to all religions... When I took a poll in my school(anonymously through a school newspaper), I found that this was the opinion of 42 percent of my school! I can't believe that the way I dress, not even my personality or whether I am kind and generous or not, would affect whether people think I am evil. It's like someone saying that because you're blonde, you're stupid(another thing I can't stand - I'm a natural blonde and have a 4.0 GPA)... I can't stand people who use stereotypes... It makes me want to hit something... Hard... (sorry if this isn't the right place to post this)
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
Welcome to Hatrack Elfy
Threads here get de-railed all the time.
I'll give you a quick lesson on one of the smileys:
quote: It makes me want to hit something... Hard...
Note the following smiley for future reference: Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
My perception is that most of the people who are responsible for the shows have little or no understanding of what it's like to be 'religious', and so are rarely unable to come up with characters and/or situations that are beleivable or recognisable to those of us who are experienced in living a religious life, if that last phrase makes sense. Most characters who are overtly religious are either raving nutcases, like Ned Flanders in The Simpsons and Robert's one time prospective in-laws in "Everybody Loves Raymond", or are having major crises of faith, or are hypocrites. You rarely, if ever, see a character who is quietly but firmly religious. Maybe they think that doesn't make good drama, but I sure get sick of seeing a good chunk of society caricatured in that way, whether intentionally or not. It's one of the things I like about OSc: he knows how to write believable characters with religious beliefs that actually are positive parts of their lives.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: I also believe that there are laws of God which should not be broken. I see them broken constantly on tv shows in which the characters are constantly putting each other down, doing unkind things, lying, and in other ways not internalizing the messages of their religions. So it's not that they don't profess a religion, but that I see them as not living the results of true faith.
I wouldn't put it quite as stridently--I don't believe that areligious equals unkind--but at heart, I think this is a valid point. Characters in TV shows routinely sleep with characters they are not married to, and otherwise violate religious rules that are considered to be irrelevant by the areligious, and suffer no moral qualms or anxiety about it. That's pretty good evidence of their agnosticism, apart from any claims that we just don't see them on Sunday.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"That's pretty good evidence of their agnosticism...."
By this standard, Joe, a healthy proportion of the 92% of the American public who believe in a higher power of some sort is in fact agnostic.
[ September 26, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
EDIT: never mind, I see where I misread.
-o-
Granted, religious people don't always live by their beliefs, but they often at least experience guilt when they fail.
EDIT AGAIN . . . I think I do get you.
Then maybe we're underestimating the percentage of Americans who are in fact agnostic, and TV is actually accurate in its portrayal. I mean, if you don't live by the tenets of your professed faith, how true is it?
Or maybe TV shows not merely a healthy percentage of people being this way, but virtually everybody. I mean, it seems to me that people who live their faith and are not hypocrites or rabid in their beliefs are more common in the world I live in than they are on TV.
[ September 26, 2004, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If it makes you feel any better, small rent-controlled apartments on the fringes of Soho are more common than they appear on TV, too.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That's another thing that bugs me - why do television writers think it's OK to engage in major real estate fraud like circumventing rent control?
Dagonee
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Because if they showed how most New Yorkers really live - in tiny, expensive, cramped apartments - the shows would not be as successful.
BTW, Ross and Monica are not Jewish. Their father, Elliot Gould, is, but their mother is not. Hence Monica's Christmas tree and Chandler and Monica minister shopping for their wedding. Rachel is supposed to be Jewish, I believe.
I am consistently appalled by Debra Messing's character on Will and Grace and I'm shocked that a Jewish girl would agree to portray such an embarassing caricature.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I agree that her character is an unattractive mess, but what specifically do you object to?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Going back to the original subject; If you'll recall, Muslims have referred to Christians as "infidel" and "unbeliever" for centuries.
I don't think this has anything to do with the media, it has to do with a mindset that is present in Islam. "If you don't believe in our god, you must believe in no god."
Muslims have a very carefully crafted set of customs that are designed to prevent people from calling their religion into question.
As far as the girl in my original story goes, I don't think this is the case. She was pleasantly surprised, upon arriving in the United States, to find that the family she lived with was rather devoutly Christian. She learned that her stereotype of areligiousness was wrong, and it wasn't because she discovered a large segment of society living muslim laws.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Going back to the original subject; If you'll recall, Muslims have referred to Christians as "infidel" and "unbeliever" for centuries.
I don't think this has anything to do with the media, it has to do with a mindset that is present in Islam. "If you don't believe in our god, you must believe in no god."
Muslims have a very carefully crafted set of customs that are designed to prevent people from calling their religion into question.
Spoken like someone who has been indoctrinated with the common Muslim=terrorist paradigm that is common in America today, with no regard to what Islam actually is.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The problem is that pretty much the only reports Americans encounter about Islam are related to either terrorism or things like the Rushdie fatwa. I think this whole thread is about this phenomenon. Muslims right now are getting it worse than most (or any). I've certainly seen it with respect to Catholicism, to a lesser degree. I'm sure most groups of believers could make similar claims.
However, there are whole faiths that pretty much have no representation in the media. Except for Apu on the Simpsons and maybe Bend it like Bekham, there are almost no other ackowledgement that there are almost a billion Hindus in the world. Buhdism is horribly misrepresented in the West.
Dagonee
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Yes, Dagonee, that is a very good point. The only time I really learned anything about Islam is when I became seriously curious about conversion. I didn't convert, but still gained a great deal of knowledge and respect. Television writers often don't seem to do a lot of research in their portrayals of anything but WASP-y males and females.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: Spoken like someone who has been indoctrinated with the common Muslim=terrorist paradigm that is common in America today, with no regard to what Islam actually is.
Yes, I knew when I posted it that some would see it that way. But I didn't to go to great lengths to add caveats.
My post said nothing about terrorists. Only about a religious tendency to discredit other religions. Most religions do this to a certain extent. Christians were once referred to as "atheos" (without gods) by the greeks. Jews were (and still are) referred to as unbelievers by Christians. Catholics are called "Mary worshippers" by certain protestant sects.
My post simply pointed out that Muslims do this to the extent that it is possible, when immersed in Muslim society, to be ignorant of the fact that other cultures worship any god at all. I suggested that this cultural mechanism probably has a greater impact on the issue than the media does.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
You suggested based on ignorance. Just because you didn't use the word terrorist doesn't mean that you haven't been indoctrinated by the post-9/11 rhetoric about Islam.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:I agree that her character is an unattractive mess, but what specifically do you object to?
She's loud, rude, neurotic, and obnoxious. She eats like a pig and complains constantly about everything. I hate the idea that people think that is what Jewish people are like.
On a similar note, I also hate how Southerners are portrayed in the media - ignorant, racist hillbillies or alcoholic vamps.
Posted by Elf Elder of the Plains (Member # 6893) on :
I read with interest some of the latest posts concerning this topic. I have to admit that some of what I saw was a little disturbing.
Some points to realize about Islam:
1) Up until the Middle Ages, Christianity and Islam were both worshipped in the Middle East. In fact, up until the Crusades, Christian temples and Islamic Mosques could be found in many of the same Middle Eastern cities. Why, then, the Crusades? One theory is that the Holy Church (Rome) felt worried by the strength of the knights and fighting men of Europe. In order to "thin the herd" a bit, a crusade was declared. So, was the true purpose of the crusades a holy, inspired move to save the souls of pagans? Or was it the move of men who wanted to keep hold of the power they already had by removing possible threats?
2) Looking over the teachings of Islam, most of the teachings speak of sparing (and definitely NOT targeting) non-combatants. It is only a few people who has started the movement towards "holy war" against everyone. Stating that if the person is not willing to die for Islam (or has a different belief), then that person must be considered an enemy, is not of the original teachings.
Recently, my wife applied at a University for a teaching position (this is a private, "non-denominational" school with practical Christian teachings). The school will accept any religion into the rolls, but to teach you have to sign a statement of beliefs. She made the mistake of stating that she believed that other religions had some points worthy of the grace of God (that you did not have to be of only one specific religion to have a chance of entering Heaven). The school interpreted this as her saying that, because the 9/11 terrorists were firm in their belief, they would go to Heaven.
Hope this wasn't too rambling for a first post.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: You suggested based on ignorance. Just because you didn't use the word terrorist doesn't mean that you haven't been indoctrinated by the post-9/11 rhetoric about Islam.
No, I suggested based on my own invesatigation, and having read the Satanic Verses, and wanting to understand what part was so offensive to Muslims, that I took a comparative religions course (in 1999) and asked several friends and coworkers what the issue was. (My fragment is just as improper as yours was)
After 9/11 I asked one of my Muslim friends if he could translate the Sesame Street song "Sing a Song" into arabic, since I thought it would be appropriate if Sesame Street used the song to promote harmony between arab-americans and the rest of the country. Unfortunately his arabic isn't strong enough to do it justice.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: most of the people who are responsible for the shows have little or no understanding of what it's like to be 'religious', and so are rarely unable to come up with characters and/or situations that are beleivable or recognisable to those of us who are experienced in living a religious life
I think this is a large part of it too.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:No, I suggested based on my own invesatigation, and having read the Satanic Verses, and wanting to understand what part was so offensive to Muslims, that I took a comparative religions course (in 1999) and asked several friends and coworkers what the issue was. (My fragment is just as improper as yours was)
No, you're coming to a generalized conclusion based on specific limited experience. Islam is no more set against challenges of its basis than Christianity is, though Christianity has been dealing with it since the Reformation while it is relatively new to Islam. Before that they were all simply considered moon-worshippers or Muhammadans.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:most of the people who are responsible for the shows have little or no understanding of what it's like to be 'religious', and so are rarely unable to come up with characters and/or situations that are beleivable or recognisable to those of us who are experienced in living a religious life
I agree. It's a harder job, and not as visual. I mean, we understand goals like money or the Good Lay, they can easily be put to the screen. This does have me curious. Who was the last character on a major show of whom a swath of protestants would say possessed a sense of true and obvious christianity.
[ September 26, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: No, you're coming to a generalized conclusion based on specific limited experience. Islam is no more set against challenges of its basis than Christianity is,
Back at ya. You're coming to a generalized conclusion based on a specific limited experience. That is, you are generalizing about me, and you have very little information to go on. I'll wager that you have less information to draw conclusions about me than I have to draw conclusions about Islam. Or any other religion, for that matter.
One thing you have not done was to refute the specific claims that I made in the post. Would you care to? If not then all you're doing is calling me names.
My statement did not claim that Islam as a whole was so isolationist as to create an entire culture of people who fail to recognise that Americans practice any sort of religion. I responded to an individual case where one woman was startled to discover that we do. That claim was never disputed. I merely pointed out some existing cultural behaviors that I think are more likely to have caused that individual case than current media reports.
So if you'd like to debate the issue, give specifics.
Is is NOT true that muslims sometimes refer to christians as infidels or unbelievers?
Is it NOT true that Rushdie's fatwa was in response to his reference to the rumor of Satan's insertion of verses into the Koran (Qu'ran)?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Elfy and Elf Elder! Both new and in the same thread! Welcome!
You don't, by any chance, know each other, do you? Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Annie: (Sorry, I missed your post, I was busy responding to Justa)
quote: As far as the girl in my original story goes, I don't think this is the case. She was pleasantly surprised, upon arriving in the United States, to find that the family she lived with was rather devoutly Christian. She learned that her stereotype of areligiousness was wrong, and it wasn't because she discovered a large segment of society living muslim laws.
I'm not claiming she was. I was referring to the fact that since she was from a muslim country, she was ignorant of the degree of religion practiced in the U.S. As far as I can tell, this was your original comment. The only claim I made was to the source of that ignorance, not to the ignorance itself.
Bear in mind, religious isolation doesn't necessarily mean that a small group of fundamentallists live in self imposed isolation. Islam is the second largest religion in the world, and covers a large geographic area. It's also separated from the U.S. by an ocean, so there has been relatively little interaction until more recent immigration activity. All I'm pointing out is that her ignorance of religious activity in the U.S. was more likely do to this level of cultural isolation, rather than the influence of the media. I mean seriously, how many Morroccans watch Friends?
Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
Both of those are true. What they do not give you is a basis for generic comments about Islam.
If you want to know why Rushdie's novel was so offensive, Karen Armstrong's biography of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) goes into it in some detail. I'd look it out now, but I have work to do. I'll respond again tomorrow with some further info. I haven't read the novel myself though, so I'm basing my comments on the extracts I have read. Oh, and since there is no one authority in Islam the fatwa only has validity among those Muslims who choose to accept the authority of the cleric who issued it.
As for the comment that Christians are unbelievers, yes, some Muslims say it, but it runs directly counter to the spirit of the Qur'an. The Qur'an makes very clear that Jews and Christians are "people of the book" and should be respected as such. Muslims should not try to convert them - they will enter Paradise by following their own religion. Moses and Jesus are among the prophets revered by Muslims and the Qur'an tells stories of their lives, which, although they are often told from a different angle to the corresponding stories in the Bible are by no means offensive.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: how many Morroccans watch Friends?
I can't speak for Morroccans, but I have it on pretty good authority that TONS of Jordanians do. It made my Arabic teacher a little upset ("I didn't come to Jordan to watch Friends!!!"). Justa FYI.
[ September 27, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
I believe this book by Karen Armstrong is the one Amira Tharani may have been mentioning. If it is not, it is another good book to look at for insight into Islam and its relationship to Judaism and Christianity.
quote:So if you'd like to debate the issue, give specifics.
How convenient that trying to point out specifics you totally ignore the doctrine and culture you claim you have studied.
quote:Is is NOT true that muslims sometimes refer to christians as infidels or unbelievers?
Is it not more true that Christians do this between denominations? It is not true that the majority of Islam denounces Christians and Jews as unbelievers, because that is not doctrinally sound.
quote:While Muslims respect Jews and Christians as People of the Book, at the same time Muslims are cautioned not to take them as close friends. This does not mean that Muslims should not treat them with respect, kindness, and justice, nor that Muslims cannot socialize with them as long as they respect the limits of Islam - for example, that no alcohol is served. But it does mean that Muslims should seek personal advice and, on a national level, allies, from fellow Muslims.
The Qur’an gives guidance in how to deal with the People of the Book. It reads what means: *{And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [Himself] is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:120)
The Qur’an also reads: *{And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say [unto them, O Muhammad]: Nay, but [we follow] the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters. Say [O Muslims]: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto Us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob. and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, add that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:135-136)
Another verse reads what means: *{O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is [one] of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.}* (Al-Ma’idah 5:51)
Then another verse reads what means: *{Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe [to be] the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe [to be] those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.}* (Al-Ma’idah 5:82)
The correct doctrine for treatment of Christians and Jews is one of respectful coexistence. It is against the Koran to consider the followers of Jesus unbelievers because Jesus was a prophet. It is incorrect to denounce the children of Abraham because Abraham was one of the prophets (and considered the first Muslim). Calling them infidel or unbeliever is a direct contradiction of scripture.
quote:Another important fact we learn from the Koran is that Muslims must respect Jewish and Christian places of worship. In the Koran, the places of worship of the People of the Book, i.e. monasteries, churches and synagogues, are mentioned as places of worship protected by God.
…if God had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where God's name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. God will certainly help those who help Him - God is All-Strong, Almighty. (Surat al-Hajj: 40 )
This verse shows all Muslims the importance of respecting and protecting the sanctuaries of Christians and Jews.
Indeed, in the Koran God commands Muslims not to harbor any enmity towards any people. In many verses, friendship is recommended, even with idolaters. God even refers to the idolaters at war with Muslims in this way: "If any of the idolaters ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of God. Then convey them to a place where they are safe." (Surat at-Tawba: 6)
Jews and Christians, however, are much closer to Muslims than idolaters. Each of these religions has its book, that is, they are subject to a revelation sent down by God. They know what is right and what is wrong, what is lawful and what is unlawful. They know they will give an account to God, and they love and revere His prophets. This shows that Muslims and the people of the book can live easily together and cooperate.
quote:Muslims believe that God had previously revealed Himself to the earlier prophets of the Jews and Christians, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims therefore accept the teachings of both the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels. They believe that Islam is the perfection of the religion revealed first to Abraham (who is considered the first Muslim) and later to other prophets. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians have strayed from God's true faith but hold them in higher esteem than pagans and unbelievers. They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the "seal of the prophecy," by which they mean that he is the last in the series of prophets God sent to mankind. Muslims abhor the followers of later prophets. This attitude serves to explain the extreme Muslim animosity toward Bahais, followers of a nineteenth-century prophet, who in the Muslim mind is false.
So your claim is based on a small minority who, by all rights, are making doctrinally unsound statements. Using this incredibly flawed and ridiculous logic, I can say that the claims of Pat Robertson or Newt Gingrich are representative of Christianity as a whole.
quote:Is it NOT true that Rushdie's fatwa was in response to his reference to the rumor of Satan's insertion of verses into the Koran (Qu'ran)?
As Amira Tharani has already pointed out, It is only observed by those who follow the Ayatollah Khomeini as a cleric. It is definitely not a majority view or command. The insult, however, is very real. It is as insulting as if an author released a book detailing assumed proof that Moses or Jacob were secretly working for Baal or Satan himself in a clandestine manner.
Are you willing to accept that you were working from a flawed and biased premise, or would you like to bring up any more details to be informed about? If giving links are not sufficient, which I would tend to be suspicious of to begin with, I am more than happy to refer you to some books that go into much more detail while citing credible and consistent references. Rest assured, I was not trying to personally insult you, but your position is one based almost completely on ignorance and bias.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I've studied Islam quite a bit and didn't find anything wrong with Glenn's statements, though they weren't all inclusive.
I was wondering last night if the X-Files conventions petered out as a direct result of the Heaven's Gate cult suicide.
Also, watched a second episode of Joan of Arcadia this week while on vacation, and her dad is an angry Atheist. Like he won't let her mom got to church. But I guess it is like in "Signs", the people who are really angry at God believe in Him so much that they blame everything on HIm. Anyway, I generally found "Touched by an Angel" as well as "Joan..." to be not the sort of thing I'd want my teenaged kids to watch
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:If you want to know why Rushdie's novel was so offensive, Karen Armstrong's biography of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) goes into it in some detail. I'd look it out now, but I have work to do. I'll respond again tomorrow with some further info. I haven't read the novel myself though, so I'm basing my comments on the extracts I have read. Oh, and since there is no one authority in Islam the fatwa only has validity among those Muslims who choose to accept the authority of the cleric who issued it.
I read Armstrong's book a few years ago. She is a clear writer, with an interesting grasp. As she explains Rushdie's fatwa, it's more or less, what Glenn Arnold says here:
quote:Not because of what he put in the book, but because the title alluded to a rumor that exists within Islam that at one point Satan inserted verses in the Koran, wich calls into question the validity of the entire Koran.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
amira tharani:
Thank you. I was aware of the "people of the book" concept and Karen Armstrong's book, although I have not read it.
I'll quote my own post:
quote: I don't think THIS has anything to do with the media, it has to do with a mindset that is present in Islam. "If you don't believe in our god, you must believe in no god."
I've added emphasis to the word this, but the quote is from my original post. I am referring to this case, where an individual woman was unaware that people in the U.S. are religious. Also note that I said this mindset is present in Islam. I didn't say it was universally accepted. Again, all I was saying is that it seems to me that longstanding cultural misunderstandings are more likely to have affected this case than current reports in the media.
Justa:
quote: Islam is no more set against challenges of its basis than Christianity is, though Christianity has been dealing with it since the Reformation while it is relatively new to Islam.
I never said it was. And if you read this part: (again, I'll quote my own post)
quote: Only about a religious tendency to discredit other religions. Most religions do this to a certain extent. Christians were once referred to as "atheos" (without gods) by the greeks. Jews were (and still are) referred to as unbelievers by Christians. Catholics are called "Mary worshippers" by certain protestant sects.
You'll see that I already brought this issue up. You're just jumping the gun and seeing slurs that aren't present, simply because I didn't go out of my way to provide balanced counterpoint to the statement about Islam.
Also note: I didn't present my opinion as an absolute. I said "I don't think this has anything to do with the media." I could be wrong. But I think Annie is the most appropriate person to argue with me on that point, not because of her knowledge of Islam, but because she knows the person in question.
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