Continuing this discussion which seems to have drifted off (what I thought was) the topic into the all-too-typical "Christians versus Atheists" ing session, I'd like to present a parable.
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An atheist and a holy-roller are out jackhammering some pavement on a scorching summer day, when along comes their workmate Jesus carrying a couple of plastic pitchers of liquid. Knowing Jesus to be a kind&thoughtful friend, they shut down the noisy compressor, and each grabs a pitcher assuming that the liquid was meant for them.
As they start raising the pitchers to their lips, Jesus shouts "Stop!" and they pause. "That water has enough poison to kill a man."
"Aw man, quit foolin' around." says the atheist. "Yeah, we've been working our butts off." continues the holy-roller, "We're hot and thirsty..." "..and that KoolAid'll sure hit the spot," finishes the atheist.
As they once again raise the pitchers to their lips, Jesus says, "Believe in Me if you want to live."
Now the atheist, thinking that his friend hasn't steered him wrong yet, stops, lowers the pitcher, and throws a look of puzzlement at him.
And the holy-roller...well, naturally he shouts, "I believe in Jesus!" then proceeds to chug-a-lug the liquid.
Jesus jumps, knocks the pitcher out of his hands, and the remaining fluid spills onto the ground. He turns and runs away, shouting back to the atheist, "Watch that dude. Don't let him drink from your pitcher. I'm going to call nine one one."
And sure enough, by the time Jesus comes back with the ambulance, the holy-roller is laid out on the pavement groaning in agony. While the EMTs load the stricken fellow into the back of the vehicle, the holy-roller moans, "Why, Jesus, why? I'm a Christian. I believe in You. You said I would live if I believed in You," as the ambulance doors are closing, "Why did You do this to me? Why? I believe in You. Why?".
Watching the ambulance drive away, the atheist then looks at Jesus and says, "Can you tell me what-the-hell just happened?"
Shaking His head sadly, Jesus replies, "On a day as hot as this, I figured the compressor's radiator would need to be refilled. And you people just grabbed the radiator fluid mix. Nasty stuff, destroys your liver. I wish that guy had as much faith in Me as much as you do."
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And the moral of this tale? Well...
AbrahamLincoln was once in argument with a man who insisted that if they reframed a dispute by giving the issue another name, the problem would be resolved. The President replied, "Look, if you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs would a dog have?" "Five, of course." said the man. "Wrong, there's four." said Lincoln. "You can call a tail a leg, but it's still a tail."
Conversely, calling a leg a tail doesn't create a five-tailed dog.
The holy-roller trusted his thirst. And the atheist trusted Jesus. Mere self-labeling doesn't change what ones real faith is in.
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Next: occultism and evil from a slightly different perspective.
[ September 24, 2004, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
aspectre, what exactly is that supposed to be analogous to? Religion is actually poison? Holy rollers are idiots? Jesus is a poisoner? Commandments are both vague and have deadly consequences if misunderstood? Atheists are actually better followers of Jesus and prove it by not believing in him? I get what you're trying to say (because of the second story), but the first one doesn't make sense.
[ September 24, 2004, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Nice one...
edit: Directed at Aspectre... I liked it.
Kat, I see it as similar to one of Jesus's parables:
Two children. Dad says to one "mow the lawn" and he says "sure" and doesn't do it. Dad says to the other "mow the lawn" and he answers "no way" and does it. which one did dad's will?
[ September 24, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, that one was better.
But it still implies that the reason the other kid mowed the lawn was because his dad told him to. What if he did it because he personally enjoyed a shorter lawn? It's not following someone if you're not actually listening and do the same action for your own reasons.
That's only a problem if you consider the label of following someone more important than the action taken.
[ September 24, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I liked the story.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Well, the only difference between my version and Jesus's is that He doesn't actually say "mow the lawn".
[ September 24, 2004, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Of course, it would have been better for everyone, all around, if Jesus had said "that water's got the old radiator fluid in it" instead of "believe in me if you want to live." Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Now it makes sense!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Except for all the other details about Jesus bringing poison and calling one of them a "holy roller" (a pejorative term), and one person dying, yeah, it's exactly the same.
[ September 24, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
You're like me, Tom. You like to know the "why".
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
"Of course, it would have been better for everyone, all around, if Jesus had said 'that water's got the old radiator fluid in it' instead of 'believe in me if you want to live.'"
I've talked to enough mechanics who won't explain the "obvious" to me and get irritated if I start asking questions. That part of the parable didn't bother me as much. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I agree. That's why I cringe every time someone uses the word "atheist" with that tone of dread in the voice. I couldn't care less what a person proclaims to believe. This is the same reason I have problems with people telling someone "Oh yeah, I'm a Lutheran (Methodist, Mormon, whatever)" simply because that's the religion his family identified with or the last church he happened to go to. You can tell me what you are all you want, but I'm going to believe what you are by how you act. I know many people not affiliated with religion that are far more Christian in attitude than many Christians I know.
That said, I still belive the truth in its entirety is contained in the Gospel I believe to be true. I will still continue to share my views with others in the hopes that they may benefit from the truths I believe that I have learned. I'm not saying that they aren't good people when I say that their way of belief is misguided. I'm not saying there aren't good things that they're doing with their life or that they can't be just as loving of their fellow beings as (and often moreso than) I am.
No argument holds much water when it's carried into absolutes, and labelling is just another way of doing just that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yep. More importantly, I have no tolerance for silliness. On a TV show, when someone running from a mobster is stopped by a loved one and says something like, "No time to explain! Bar the door! Lock the windows! Hide under the bed with me! I'll explain later! Much later! I love you!" my first thought is, "You dork. Say 'I'm being chased by the mob. Help me hide.'"
On another TV show, when someone is reporting in over walkie-talkie to their boss, and their boss says something like, "What is it, Marshall? What do you see?" I am livid when Marshall replies, "Trouble."
It's atmospheric, sure, but also deserving of horrible death.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, he did say "That water has enough poison to kill a man." in the beginning. That's pretty explicit.
----
I hate those scenes in movies. I also don't like the ones where they start a conversation in one part of town, and then the next line in the conversation is said on the other side of town, four hours later. What, did they sit in silence for the whole car ride?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Kat,
comparing mine to Jesus's... not Aspectre's.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*looks* I see. Well, well done with the hiring of the parable-writers, then.
----- I have decided I don't like the eye-rolling smiley. It's a smiley, so it's cute, but unlike the anger smiley, it's usually not used for joking. Sincere uses are a little funny - just like sincere uses of the anger smiley are - but in general I don't think it has a constructive purpose.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
I am sorry that you don't like my smiliey.
here's the parable I was referring to, btw:
(from Matthew, NIV)
The Parable of the Two Sons
28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. 31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
The problem with this story is saying that the atheist trusted Jesus because Jesus was his friend. That's not an atheist, even if your story calls him one.
edit: Because don't you think the atheist knows if he believes in Christ or not? He's not going to call himself an atheist if he "trusts Jesus".
[ September 24, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote: I have decided I don't like the eye-rolling smiley. It's a smiley, so it's cute, but unlike the anger smiley, it's usually not used for joking.
And sometimes I find the condescending when it's placed after a slam. "I smiled at the end, so it means I'm really nice."
The moral: to each his own.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:More importantly, I have no tolerance for silliness.
See, Tom, that's your problem... Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Taking a smiley (or post) at face value isn't the same as taking a smiley (or post) with assumptions about the person's motives.
The eye-rolling smiley *means* I disdain you.
The smiley is only a slam if you take it that way.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Am I the only one who came into the thread hoping for a "...walked into a bar" joke?
Maybe....
A Christian, Jesus, and an atheist walk into a bar. The atheist goes to the restroom, and when he comes back, Jesus has bought a round for the three. The atheist takes a cautious sip and says, "This is just water." And Jesus replies "Ours is wine."
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
So Jesus was too cheap to buy wine for the guy who didn't believe in him? What a cheapskate.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Jesus doesn't *buy* wine...
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
LOL
Posted by Heffaji (Member # 3669) on :
I've heard he's gotten away from making water into wine. Now, water must be turned into funk.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Hey, I'm an atheist, I know a guy named Jesus. (pronunciation different) and I would trust him if he told me not to drink an unknown liquid. So there.
A friend of mine (non-denominational Christian) told me this joke:
A lady is standing on her porch while the flood waters rise. A rowboat pulls up to her porch and a man offers her a ride to safety.
"No, no" she says, "God will provide."
So the boat pulls away.
Some time later, the woman has climbed up onto her porch roof, and a powerboat pulls up. The man in the boat offers her a ride to safety.
"No, no" she says, "God will provide."
So the boat pulls away.
As the waters rise, the woman climbs her roof to the top of her chimney, and the police patrol boat pulls up. The policeman offers her a ride.
"No, no" she says, "God will provide."
So the boat pulls away.
The water continues to rise, the house is swept off its foundation, and the woman drowns as the remains of the house sinks in the flood.
As she finds herself in Heaven, face to face with God, he asks her: "Why didn't you accept a ride with one of those boats?"
"Well," she says, "I've always had great faith in You, and I was sure you'd provide for my safety."
"Umm," says God, "Who do you think sent the boats?"
**********
Given that my friend knows I'm an atheist, I found this joke to be an irritating and slightly insulting form of prosyletizing. However, I also know that my friend's faith is pretty genunine, and he truly hopes that I will "see the light" someday, for my own benefit. However, I thought about it for a little while, and here's my addendum to this joke:
An atheist is standing on her porch while the flood waters rise. A rowboat pulls up to her porch and a man offers her a ride to safety.
"Thanks." says the atheist, climbs aboard the boat, and together the two of them row to safety, picking up other people along the way.
Posted by DOG (Member # 5428) on :
I don't get it.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Am I the only one who came into the thread hoping for a "...walked into a bar" joke?
I was expecting one. Glad it was there eventually...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:The eye-rolling smiley *means* I disdain you.
*nods* That's what I was thinking.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You know, parables aren't the easiest things in the world to come up with.
Jesus was pretty good at it, though.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
FWIW, I think I'm pretty good at writing parables. Sadly, there's not much of a line of work in it nowadays.
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
ing session, I'd like to present a parable.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)