This is topic I Think THIS must be what people think when they hear the words "Internet Friends" in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
This is so funny, and sad and horribly fascinating...
Some time ago, years now, really, someone sent me a link to an artist/fanfic writer's LJ. She used the nick 'Victoria Bitter', and had some very nice drawings. Her journal was interesting and frequently funny. Usually having to do with LOTR stuff. She was the one I quoted with the list of funny obersvations about FotR ("Legolas has three facial expresions: Calm, Slight Headache, and Balrog").
That was years ago, now. I stopped looking in when she started posting stuff about being all misunderstood by her parents, wah, wah, etc. Then later I went back to look at some of her funnies again, and everything had been erased, though her journal and format was still up. I thought it was weird, and hoped she hadn't killed herself or something, but there was not much I could do, as I had no idea who she was, really.
I filed it away as a mystery.
Recently, (though I would have heard about it sooner if still followed any of the LotR fandom on the internet, which I don't, and have not for years) I came across a writer of fanfic who used the same name as one "Victoria Bitter" had once reccommended. So, I wrote a little note asking if she was the same one and if she knew what happened to VB.
There's a shorter, possibly less entertaining version of the story here.
From a Children's reading garden to a LotR convention gone horribly wrong. *shudder* Maybe another WenchCon isn't such a good idea.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
When you start asking for $2000 contributions to fly celebrities in for WenchCon, I’ll be worried. As it is, not so much.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think some sufferers of personality disorder are just drawn to whatever is big in pop culture. This could have been a lot worse (recalling the Heaven's Gate/ X-Files Cult). With any luck, the Ender's Game movie will produce a few cases.
Does anyone else sometimes think they hear John Cusack whispering from a cage inside their mind?
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
This story has been all other LiveJournal numerous times. It's also ended up in the various incarnations of fandom_wank. Yes, it's sad, but frankly, I've heard people talk about it that everytime it comes up I groan and think "Not again!"
It's kind of weird now, though, because in the past I didn't really know anyone who knew anything about the story. I would just come across it on various HP fandom journals. But I know you, so now I'm kind of feeling a little more compassionate about the whole thing.
Yes, there is risk involved with Internet relationships. But there's risk involved with everything in life. As Tolkein says, it's a dangerous business going out your front door. The only thing we can really do is follow our instincts and trust one another if that trust is warranted. Life can't be lived if you don't take some risks.
(and yeah, i'm feeling philosophical these days)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You realise once there is a movie (if there is ever a movie) this site will either become inundated with movie discussions and fanfiction (like harrypotter.com yuck) or there will be another site to which the movie fans go. If it becomes very popular and cultish among a wider population, this little literary community will turn into a sprawling group.
I say wider because I don't know how wide the appeal of an Ender's Game movie could be.
I'm actually quite scared/interested to see how a movie would impact this forum.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Hey, that reminds me, what ever happened to my cut of the WenchCon slush fund?
Just kidding! Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
That's scary.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I can't believe I missed the blue contact lens foreshadowing. I really was surprised when I got to page 3 of the "news" story.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Okay I'm scared. I really did want to meet you all. I've pouted and fussed about not being "real". I've missed every "get together" planned.
Maybe this is a good thing.
Oh what the heck. I like most of the people on Hatrack better than I like some of my neighbors.
What am I worried aboutf? I'm probably closer to the Cards than anyone. I'm a hop, skip and a little jump from Greensboro and they've not e-mailed me with any intentions of a get together...so I'm probably extremely safe.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Nah, Tammy. My brother is in Greensboro now, so when I go visit him, We can meet somewhere public, with the kids and the spouses. Heh. Like the first time I met Belle, Ron was with me and the kids, and even his grandmother. We fell right into this comfortable thing. It was nice.
And when I met aka, ron was convinced she was really a guy. *gigglesnort* But whatever.
xnera- I wasn't really involved in this at all. I was never a part of Bit o' Earth, though I did visit there on occasion in the early days of my resurgent LotR obsession. They had a lot of really nice fan art and stuff. I visited VB's live journal when somebody sent me a link because she had this funny "Things you notice after seeing FotR 15 Times" or some such. I went back to find it link it or whatever and the little bit she'd left up sounded semi-suicidal, so I remembered it.
And I just now found out about it, some years after the fact. I was NOT involved, just aware of this poor girl's existence before she emploded.
Morbo, the slush fund is still in the red, I swear.
Truthfully, guys, I don't think I can do another wenchcon anytime soon. I have no discretionary income at all right now. Even though it was great fun. I've been a foul temper (kicked a hole in the wall last night, Go Me) and will not make any important decisions until the fit passes (which should be before the end of the week, Moon Goddess willing, if you take my meaning).
I guess I never really realized how safe Hatrack is, as far as 'weird internet people' things are concerned.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Well you just let me know when you're coming to visit your brother...and we'll work a out a time and place.
*feels safe*
[ October 12, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Tammy ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
quote: With any luck, the Ender's Game movie will produce a few cases.
Does anyone else sometimes think they hear John Cusack whispering from a cage inside their mind?
Pooka, my keyboard is now full of little wet crumbs, thanks to you! Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Hey, I just happen to have a huge crush on John Cusack, and his crazy sister!
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
"Maxine, Oh Maxine..."
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: just aware of this poor girl's existence before she emploded.
um, did I misread the article?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Apparently.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Yes.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Page 4:
quote: "Frodo reached for Sam's shirt, ignoring the wooden buttons and pushing up under the hem to glide his hands over Sam's chest and belly," Wood wrote under the nom de plume Victoria Bitter. "[T]he hobbit shivered with pleasure, his own hands questing out in answer."
quote: The handshake was the strange thing. The bones of Jordan Wood's hand felt delicate and girlish, suiting the effervescent pixie-human's 120-pound, denim-clad frame. But it caught Renne off-guard, because until that morning in April 2003, she'd known Wood as "Mr. Frodo," an alias borrowed from the male hobbit-hero of J.R.R. Tolkien's fantasy epic The Lord of the Rings.
Months later, when they became close friends, Wood told Renne that his appearance arose from a rare disorder that prevents male bodies from absorbing testosterone.
Seems to me Victoria Bitter is not a girl.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Jordan Wood was a fake name/identity, made up by Amy Player, the 'missing girl' from the first article. She was Victoria Bitter, too. She was always a girl, even when she left college "in a flurry of black eyeliner and lesbian ennui."
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Victoria Bitter is Jordan Wood is Amy Player is Female?
No?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Keep reading.
Edit: Oh sure Olivia, just give it away.
[ October 12, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Victoria Bitter is a girl. That girl pretended to be a guy in order to conceal her identity.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I don't know. She may be really, genuinely gender-confused. I just have difficulty calling her a 'he' when she seems so otherwise messed up. I mean, I have transgendered friends, very talented writers that I edit for (who are also identical twins). They are otherwise rational, and of an age and experience level where they have chosen the life they have from a relatively clear-headed place.
This poor chick is just sad. I heard she'd moved on to doing the Harry Potter thing. Her drawings were really great, and she seemed like a fun person in the few glimpses of her in her journal (despite the hobbit-porn quoted in the article).
A lot of young people go through this identity adjustment thing, where they are deciding who they want to be. Maybe she's gotten herself figured out. I hope so, but it's still sad.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It reads like a poor mans Le Cage Au Faux...
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Gender identity disorder is still a diagnosed mental syndrome. If someone decided to be transgendered, that is one thing. Where they honestly don't seem to know, it is still professionally acceptable for therapists to treat it.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Yeah, I think that was what I was getting at, since she seemed to go back and forth with the name changes and stuff.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I think I have issues with fanfic and slash. I don't think it's a very constructive pasttime for impressionable teens and young adults.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Ironic. Annie was the first person to explain the term "slash fiction" to innocent ol' me. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm fine with fanfic. I'm not fine with slash.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm with TomDavidson. I think that characters should be left as they are. Scenarios can be invented but the characters should be true to whatever the canon is and whatever relationships are there.
The only 'fanfiction' I have written is a story for my friends (it pleases 'em) in which they get up sort of hilarious and crazy exploits at the Oscars with various famous personalities.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Am I the only one who found the article extremely tedious? I suppose I just expect news articles to get to the point. I had to wade/skim through a lot to get to the actual story, AKA the big "reveal."
I just wanted it straight!
-Katarain
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: I think I have issues with fanfic and slash. I don't think it's a very constructive pasttime for impressionable teens and young adults.
Hey! Please don't equate all fanfic with slash! Keep it up, and I'll be forced to link to the fanfic I (co-)wrote.
quote: I'm fine with fanfic. I'm not fine with slash.
What he said.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
I call that bluff Rivka. Let's have it! Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I have also written non-slash fanfic.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You asked for it. And you have been warned. Please hold all tomatoes and other produce until the end.
I'm fine with any fanfic that's well written. All fanfic completely changes the characters, the test is to see whether the changes are bearable and make you love them, or are hideous.
For example: How is a well written fanfic that shows a relationship between Lupin and McGonagall any different from one about a relationship between Ginny and Cho? They're both equally unlikely, none of the characters were anything like those in the books, but rather were loveable within the context of the fanfic.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I have to admit that when I used to think of internet friends, I thought of things like this.
Then I went to Kamacon.
I don't think slash is great, but somehow I enjoy reading it. Quite a few people I know are really into it. Maybe it has something to do with being 17 and female.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I do not mind slash. It depends... In fact, a lot of the time it can be rather... sexy. My friend writes some of the best slash, but she uses video game characters... At least it's not slash about a band or something! Gah! I hate that! It SQUICKS me!
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
quote:He'd never heard of 'Strip Uno' before, but he was always ready to try almost anything Lois suggested.
Ha! I love it. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
That's....unbelievable.
I mean, really, it just blows the mind.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I dunno. The only people I really know who write slash are older than teens. I don't see that big a difference between het fanfic and slash, really. Most of both types are awful, but they give young people a chance to write their crap in a stress-free situation. Maybe it helps their other writing get better, just by practice.
This one writer I edited for took some time off to start a business, and didn't have time to write seriously because of it. She kept her hand in by writing a longish fanfic novel. No pressure, because it didn't have to be good.
But when she started writing her next novel, her writing was so much clearer. I had to back off editing for her and basically do the simple wise reader thing, because her style had become much cleaner. She no longer needed a line edit. She's over 40, and her story was slash.
I can see that some of the stuff out there, either in slash or regular fanfic, could be symptomatic of mental illness, but most of it could be the opposite. That is, I'll write this morbid, awful stuff to get rid of it as I pass through a dark place and come out the other side.
This chick actually stopped writing when she became this other person. And I believe that she is the exception and not the norm among those who do this. I could be wrong, but the people I know who do this are not mentally ill.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I don't see that big a difference between het fanfic and slash, really."
Ah. I do. To clarify: I don't see a difference between "het" fanfic and slash, but I DO see a difference between fanfic and slash.
Not ALL fanfic has to involve steamy and unlikely romantic pair-ups between characters. Those fanfics that do, in general, are not worth my time.
[ October 13, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
And all slash does not involve sex. Some of it does, I'm sure, but not all. Just as not all fanfic has any romantic element. However, a large portion of fanfic doea involve romantic storylines or undertones. Some of it, het or slash, is explicit, but some isn't. Most of it, whether it has sex in it or not, is not worth most people's time, probably.
Just to be clear.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, it's not the explicit nature of the sex that bothers me; it's the emotional neediness and slightly unhinged connection to reality that seems to leak through the desperate desire to hook up one's favorite fictional characters. It's not that I don't think romantic plots can be legitimate -- but I often think the hookup becomes the goal of the plot, rather than a means to further the plot.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I can see that, but it isn't real literature. It's like a game. At least it is for my buddy Lisa. I enjoy her stuff because it tends to be a parody of her chosen famdom (which is Star Wars prequel). Anything SW is up for grabs to be made fun of, and she does it well. Plus the Ewan McGregor factor-- he's made enough movies as gay or bisexual characters that he seems a natural choice for slashfic.
It's like D&D. The writers collectively build their own worlds, and make eachother laugh and entertain each other. But the fandoms are only loosly related to the original stories-- even less than D&D is related to LotR. It's playing a world like the one you read about/see, but not exactly.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I don't know, Tom...I guess it depends on the person. Doubtless there are some people who are expressing some desperate, bizarre, emotional need when they write stuff like that. But couldn't others be less sketchy and just having some fun?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
(edit: Rakeesh and I posted simultaneously. This is not a reply to Rakeesh)
Okay, now I'm going to be a conservative nerd. If sexual orientation is so essential to one's being, how is it entertaining to play around with it in a whimsical manner? Would it be cool for me to write a story about some gay character discovering he is really straight and "convert" a lesbian? I can't think of a good example besides Boy George and Melissa Etheridge, and I'm not even sure Boy George was gay. Now that I think about it.
I guess this could go under Zotto!s discussion of goodness, but the fact that a gay-->straight conversion will always be seen as religious propoganda and straight-->gay is comedy or high drama suggests a deep cultural bias, if not an objective good.
Oh, and Katarain, I thought the article was brilliantly laid out. I was just about to say "and why do I care..." and suddenly it was
[ October 13, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Pooka,
I think the answer depends on what you feel should be made fun of, and what shouldn't. To some people, there are things That Should Not Be Joked About. A joke told about someone or something that's not on the list will be funny, but if it crosses the line, it ain't funny anymore and in fact is offensive.
To others, simply nothing is sacred, and everything is a joke that has been or will be told. It depends on the person, really, and where they think human sexuality falls on that scale. It's one thing to be offended by it, but at the same time I think we should recognize and respond to it (at least in part) in the spirit that such things are meant.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
For the women who write slash (and it is mostly hetero women, exceptions are rare) its because they like the idea of two guys together. Its like the way some men really like the idea of lesbian sex (or so I'm lead to believe, from episodes of Seinfeld). Guy= sexy. Two guys= sexyx2.
I have been told, though, that the highly-touted girl-on-girl action of straight porn for men usually involves a male coming into play at some point. Slashfic usually doesn't, I'm told.
Lisa sent me an article about it once. I'll see if I can find it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I refuse to read most fanfic because most of it isn't harmless and is way steamier than anything I would normally read.
I only read if it was written by someone I trust and she (mostly she) says "I promise you it's <blah>."
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I can't say it's not disturbingly arousing. I just think it shouldn't be validated, as it objectifies people.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: disturbingly arousing
I find it boring. It doesn't amuse me at all.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
And my buddy Nash was recently dating a lifelong lesbian who had just come out of a 20 year relationship. He was her first guy, ever. So I tend to think of sexuality as a sliding scale, points along a continuum-- not as an either/or type of thing.
I'd like to see a world where people are free to chose what is most comfortable for them, without things happening like happened to Matthew Shepard a few years ago yesterday.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Porn objectifies people, and I don't support the porn film industry. I think what it does to people is sad and hurtful. I don't think erotica hurts the characters. Though a scathing expose of the slashfic industry 'written' by a former slashfic star would actually make for a very amusing read to most slashers, I think.
The article (I can't seem to find it) I read also suggested that women write these romances with two male characters as a way to escape societal expectations or stigmas about who is supposed to take the lead, etc. I think this is a big part of the huge yaoi/shounen-ai thing in Japan-- tons of fluffy little manga about same sex romances in high school, where one of the characters is really uke (basically a stand-in for a girl). These are written by and for girls, exclusively (and are usually illustrated with lots of flowers, etc. to make that point clear). They aren't usually sexual explicit (the term shounen-ai is entirely romantic, with maybe a kiss or hand holding), and are generally a way for young Japanese girls to escape the rigid stereotypes of what is expected of the ideal Japanese femme.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I also think sexual orientation is malleable, but for the "Born Gay" movement such an idea is threatening.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote: I guess this could go under Zotto!s discussion of goodness, but the fact that a gay-->straight conversion will always be seen as religious propoganda and straight-->gay is comedy or high drama suggests a deep cultural bias, if not an objective good.
I think about it this way: It's basically analagous to the way people get up in arms about the "n-word", but don't really care about terms like "cracker". Notice that I don't even want to spell it out, because people are liable to be offended. It's because historically, blacks were persecuted by whites, not the other way around.
It's the same with sexuality. A "gay-->straight" conversion is too similar to the awful things some people did (like electroshock therapy) to try to "cure" homosexuality. In the other direction, there's no real history of anything like that happening, to my knowledge, at least.
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Keep it up, and I'll be forced to link to the fanfic I (co-)wrote.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Gah! I hate that! It SQUICKS me!