I'm wondering how many people here would join the U.S. military if they were drafted. I know a lot of people are are not eligible, but for the sake of argument pretend that you are.
Assume you are drafted to help stabilize things in Iraq. Also assume that there is a good chance that you might not be able to serve in a noncombat capacity as a conscientious objector.
I would be very upset if there was a draft, especially after both candidates specifically stated that we wouldn't have one.
My personal answer to this is "it depends." If my parents are still alive I would not go to Iraq because they rely on me for financial support. My parents don't speak English and I'm their only child. I figure I have a greater responsibility to them than to my countr. I know If my parents passed away (they are in their early sixties) then I would serve.
edited to clarify hypo and answer.
[ October 19, 2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: vwiggin ]
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
If I were drafted I would try to get a deferment until april when I will be done with my masters. Seems silly to cut off my research when I am this close to being done.
If my deferment was rejected, I would go.
Posted by MaydayDesiax (Member # 5012) on :
I (probably) wouldn't be drafted as a female, but if the draft was reinstated I'd go over anyway, in the Red Cross.
I feel that since many of my friends would be drafted, it would be unfair of me to at least be there to give some people comfort.
I told this to my father, however, who immediately changed his position on the draft.
[ October 18, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: MaydayDesiax ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Assuming there was a draft, and assuming I was in fact eligible for it, and assuming I was drafted, I would look for any potential "outs" based on family status, health, etc., but would do nothing shady to qualify for any such "outs." If none of them applied to me, I would go.
I mean, what's the alternative here? Break the law? Become a fugitive? Flee to Canada? Nope, not an option in my mind.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I would go - but I'd be the first one on the Capital steps in uniform after I got back.
Provided, of course, I got back.
-Trevor
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
If I had sons I would have a hard time sending them off to war, knowing that evil people are calling the shots and are using the war to consolidate wealth and power.
When I say "evil people," I'm not talking about American presidents or Democrats or Republicans. The cause and outcome of our wars is forever out of our hands. We are pawns, or more precisely, slaves.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
In this fantasy scenario, who are we at war with?
Are we having a draft because China has invaded us, or are we having a war because North Korea has nukes, and we invade them?
Or is it for the ongoing War in Iraq?
I don't think we are at War in Iraq, if so are we at war with the Iraqis, or are we at war with Al-queda?
If it is Al-queda, it's not a war, it's a police Action because Al-Queda ain't a country, it's a bunch of insane blood thursty power hungry thugs.
What am I being drafted into?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
As opposed to what?
I would probably look for legal means to avoid it, since I have kids, and since I'm not quite on board, philosophically, with the war in Iraq. (Or are you referring to some other hypothetical war?)
But if all those options were exhausted, I would not flee the country or otherwise dodge the draft. Which is not intended as a criticism of those that did. It's just not what I would do.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Well, I'm female so I'm not eligible. But if I were:
I'd try to get a job in intelligence. It's one of the things that I'd like to do anyway, so it wouldn't be a big deal.
If I couldn't? I guess I'll be the first here, but I'd dodge. Either go to Canada or where ever else I can go safely. It would suck though, let's not have a draft.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
You'd be the second. I would dodge the draft if my parents were still alive.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm Canadian and female, but for the sake of argument...
I'd dodge. I'd probably feel a little guilty but I'd dodge. It feels a little like hypocrisy- I'm not a pacifist- but I can't image shooting someone, or organising other people to shoot other people.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
If we're talking about the current war in Iraq (and I use the term hesitantly), I would absolutely dodge the draft, and make sure my husband did, too. It makes me sick to my stomach to think of losing him or myself for such a stupid, stupid reason, just as it makes me sick to think of all the American kids and Iraqi civilians giving up their lives for it.
If we were actually called to DEFEND our country from an honest threat, that would be different.... but I have a hell of a lot more to do with my life than invade some harmless country to spread American ideals.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
If there were a draft I would sign up before I could actually be drafted. I would do this for two reasons. First, it would give me a chance to at least pick the branch and no I wouldn't pick the navy or air force just to try to avoid life threatening circumstances. Second, I believe that in the circumstances that a draft were to be called the need would be inherently sufficient to require as many bodies as quickly as possible, I believe that would only not be the case under such a government that I would have already left to country.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
It irritates the snot out of me that my friends who have recently been awarded their green cards can be drafted but cannot vote. What kind of justice is that?
If it were me and I were an American with all the thoughts and feelings I have now I'd dodge the crap out of it and come to Canada. In fact, even if there wasn't a war I'd come to Canada. Go Canada! Woo! Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I do not believe in war, so I simply would not go. If they arrest me, I will take what I get and justify it to all those who would accuse me of being anti-American. Oddly enough, if this country was invaded I could see myself taking up arms to defend it in an insurgency.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'd go.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I would not go if I could avoid it. It would be very wrong, not to mention dangerous for me personally! Once people accept a violation of their rights, those rights become lost.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Depends on the war. WW2, yes. Iraq, no.
I'd either go to Canada, or do alternative service.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Absolutely. I hope there is no draft, for the practical reason that I believe the most effective military is an all-volunteer military, and also for the selfish reason that I don't want to be killed. But unlike most people, I do believe that our current military actions are just, and I would go and do my part if I had to. I won't enlist, because I know that I'd make a lousy soldier. But if the President decided the situation were desperate enough to need me, I'd do whatever I could to help.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Since we're assuming that the country is not in any danger, then a draft is unacceptable to me--I don't think the government has the right to demand my labor in any capacity, especially not for hazardous jobs. (Taxes, okay, telling me what to do, no.) It can beg me, pay me lots of money, appeal to my sense of patriotism, but when it crosses the line into forced servitude it becomes wrong.
Of course, there's almost no way I'd end up in combat given my physical abilities, and I admit that I'd probably go if drafted. I would be too afraid to try to dodge, and I'd possibly feel guilty if I did.
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
In this draft, do you get to choose which branch you get to join? If not, and I heard the draft was being reinstated I'd try to join willingly before so I could be in the Air Force like my dad.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
If there was a draft, I would try to join the air force, because they're the coooolest. I'd still go if I were drafted.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
As has been said earlier, the government won't re-institute the draft in the forseeable future due to the lowered capabilities of a forced-service military (Lack of motivation being the main cause for that). That being said, I've allready tried to sign up in every branch but the Navy and have been rejected because I have asthma. So yes, if there was a draft, and they let people with asthma go, I would.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Were I eligible, which I'm not likely to be, I would refuse to be in any position in the army, including army medical units. I would be willing to work with a non-army medical unit, if I were given training, and proved able, or to work in refugee camps or whatever.
If they were to force me into an army position, I would refuse, and, if neccessary, go to jail.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I'd go, but I wouldn't be any help to the military.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
I consider the idea of a draft highly unlikely (though perhaps more likely if John Kerry is elected,) but in the event that the all-volunteer portion of the military is inadequate for our needs and a draft was instated, then I would be the first to voluntarily enlist. It's better than getting drafted and assigned to be a bullet-catcher.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
The proposed draft that was recently shot down in the house included both sexes. I do not think girls are immune anymore. It allowed for non-military service. It also made it harder to dodge the draft.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
If there were a draft, I'd be dressed in leather pants, a spandex shirt, and a pink boa faster than you could say fuh-LAY-ming.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
If a draft were to occur... I'd just sign up for military service... If our country were in a bad enough spot to need a draft i'd gladly go and serve... I may die... but i'd die in a way that'd make my family proud (all of my extended family has served, plus my grandfathers, both of whom served in WWII)
But then again... I've been called crazy on many occasions, and i don't try to deny it.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:leather pants, a spandex shirt, and a pink boa faster than you could say fuh-LAY-ming
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
It's a strange world where the best use this country has for me is shooting other people.
I'd sooner learn farsi or teach philosophy in prison, but I'd go. I'd shut up about it when I was over there, but when/if I got back, I would be an angry, angry veteran.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
If I were American, and were drafted, I'd flee to Poland.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
My response has been "stolen" by BHill and Stryker. If the US needed warriors badly enough to need a draft I would have already volunteered. If somehow I was drafted or was recalled after previous service I would do what was required of me by the nation.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:I'd sooner learn farsi or teach philosophy in prison, but I'd go. I'd shut up about it when I was over there, but when/if I got back, I would be an angry, angry veteran.
Do you think you could keep yourself from being a liability while over there, or is it just that going over, no matter the result, would clear your conscience?
More precisely, would you go to positively affect your theoretical unit, or just to have gone?
Me, I'd stay home because I'd be more likely, in a real world situation, to do something treasonous. I love this country, but not enough that I'd torture or abuse POWs on the order of a ranking officer. And I most certainly would refuse a direct order, like the recent occurrence, if I were sent on a mission that was more suicidal than need be. Or suicidal at all, for that matter. Nothing is more important to me than staying alive.
My conscience would definitely be more clear by not going than it would be from fighting in a war I believe to be so deeply contrary to American principles, "duty" to the country be damned.
Hey CyberDan, can I crash on your couch?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
See, I'd let you crash on mine any time, but you didn't even ask.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
See, Eddie would look hot even in THAT outfit.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
If there's a draft I'll go out and buy more couches, Eddie. Heck, I'd even let you pick. But you have to remember that this is a vegan home, no choice comes without sacrifice Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*Considers the relative disrespect of reciting lines from "Alice's Restaurant" . . . chuckles and wanders off . . . *
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'd hate it, but I'd go.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
For defense of the US, I'd likely join up or be drafted... I'd prefer Navy, as both my father and grandfather were enlisted men there.
For a war like Iraq (or maybe Iran, or Syria, et.), I'd go to jail. I feel I owe enough to this country not to bail on it (flee to Canada), abdicating my citizenship, in a sense, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with the government on any particular act, and as a citizen from the tradition of this particular country, I'd perform some civil disobedience.
Or move to Poland. I hear it has wonderful scenery. Ahem.
-Bok
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
(As a 43 year old female, it would never happen, but since we are talking hypothetics here...)
I would go. I like order and structure and authority, so I would probably do just fine in armed services.
However, I would probably personally request non-combat (like work in a military hospital, or something office, etc.) because there are plenty of positions that don't require carrying a gun daily. I would prefer to not HAVE to be engaged in active combat.
I think about this often since I have two draft-age sons. The oldest says, "Hell, no way!" although I can see him being quite good in military because he is normally extremely self-disciplined and in very good physical condition. The other son is just the opposite and the military would either change him or kill him. I would fear the latter.
But I grew up with a strong family philosophy of respect for authority and respect for government's duty to put the needs of the many ahead of needs of the individual. So I would most like not fight any draft.
Farmgirl
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
I suppose if there were a draft I'd probably go, depending on the nature of the war. I'd definitely go if it were in direct defense of the U.S., perhaps not if it was a war of choice such as Iraq. I think I'd enlist in the Air Force before I could be drafted, because that's the branch most likely to be able to make use of me. I'd make a really lousy soldier, I wouldn't want to have my unit relying on me in a combat zone because I'm sure I'd screw up and fail them. But I think I could probably be put to good use back behind the front lines. And I'm not just saying that cause I want to save my skin--my parents don't depend on me, I have no kids, and my husband can take care of himself--but I really don't want other soldiers to be reliant on me in a combat situation.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I am old, female, and asthmatic. but if I was young, male and healthy, I'd sign up for the Navy or Air Force before they could draft me.
But let me point out that while both candidates have stated there will be no draft, Kerry is the one promising to add 40,000 troops to the military without saying how he would do it. Maybe this is just a vacant campaign promise, but the Democrats HAVE put draft bills up for a vote in both houses of congress. They were resoundly defeated.
[ October 19, 2004, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: The Pixiest ]
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:But let me point out that while both candidates have stated there will be no draft, Kerry is the one promising to add 40,000 troops to the military without saying how he would do it. Maybe this is just a vacant campaign promise, but the Democrats HAVE put draft bills up for a vote in both houses of congress. They were resoundly defeated.
A. Those bills were never intended to pass.
B. I think Kerry is hoping to work on getting more foreign troops to work with us in Iraq.
C. I will not believe Bush is against the draft until I hear him say: "Read my lips-there will be no draft."
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
You shouldn't believe him, even then. After all, he's supporting a set of policies (namely, starting wars of choice while rejecting virtually all possibility of international assistance) which could box him into to choosing between defeat in the war on terror and going back on any promises not to have a draft. Given that he's said he'd "stop at nothing" to defeat terrorism, do you really think he'd hesitate to break his promises on the draft?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
He won't say "read my lips" anything. That would be a red flag to the left due to his spineless father. But he has stated over and over and over that there will be no draft.
From whom will Kerry get these troops? The French and the Germans have both stated that they will send NO troops regardless of who is president. And he's out there offending our current allies by saying they're doing nothing or next to nothing.
Basically, the whole draft idea is a cheap stunt from the left and you totally fell for it.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Basically, the whole draft idea is a cheap stunt from the left and you totally fell for it.
The draft is a very scary, though unlikely, possibility for a horribly overextended military. And who is this "you" and what did they "fall for"?
And thanks to the both of you for sapping all the humor out of my "Read my lips" joke.
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
If I were drafted, I would go.
I've actually thought long and hard about this, since it seems a draft nowadays would include drafting women.
I'd be a lousy soldier and an even lousier nurse, but I could put my other talents to use. I could steal and eat the enemy's chocolate bars when they aren't looking. That's something I excell at.
And since a woman's temper is often scarier than anything else on this planet, I could scare the living daylights out of the enemy by chasing them around and forcing them to tell me for REAL if I look fat in combat boots.
[ October 19, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: FoolishTook ]
Posted by Defenestraitor (Member # 6907) on :
Oh man, tough question. I'm beyond the draft age, but I'll imagine for a moment.
My first instinct would be a strong urge to get the h### out of this country and go live with my relatives on the Mediterranean. I have dual citizenship (U.S. and Italy) so it wouldn't be too hard for me to just live there for the rest of my life.
But I wouldn't run. I know that. I'm trying to be realistic. I would join up and fight, no matter how much our reasons for fighting pain me to the core.
I was born here, not in Italy. Not that I'd have it any worse if my parents had decided never to move to this country, that's not the point. My life is here, in America. My friends. My memories. If I dodged or moved away, I wouldn't be deserting this country. I'd be deserting the people I care about who have no other place to call home. How could I live with myself knowing that they're fighting, and I'm not? I think the pain of that would overwhelm me, and eventually override my urge to flee.
I would join. But not for my country. And not for this president. The draft, in all its unfairness, wouldn't just be affecting me. It would affect millions of people just like me. I would go for them, to help them fight, to protect them as best I could. Because that's what people keep telling me, for all my character flaws, the one thing I do exceptionally well is being a friend.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
hmmm, I'm a female so I don't think it would occur. However, if it did... If I could go in a noncombat position, than yes, I would go. If somehow I was going to placed into combat, I would not go.
It seems like pregnancy ought to get you out of duty. Not the noblest reason to have a kid, but adding a life to the world certainly seems better than losing my life for a cause I don't believe in. So if all else fails, girls have an out. Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I think I'm totally unpatriotic. Right now, I'm on the best way to leave my country forever, not for a man, not for friends, but because I'd get paid well.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
When I was in high school I won an informal debate with the following argument, and surprisingly 20 years later, it still holds up.
"To all you ladies out there who say you will proudly go to serve our country, to be drafted into what ever military branch that needs you, and will valiantly serve in those necessary Non-combatant positions so as to free up able bodied men--like me--for duty in combat situations, situations where I can get wounded, hurt, and killed, well I'd like to say thank you.
I can't, but I'd really like to."
Would I serve? Probably.
Would I protest? Probably.
However much depends on the cause.
There are many causes for which I would die. There are very few (friends and family) for which I would kill.
I had a professor in college who was drafted, and turned down Officers Training School. He said he'd go out to die if he had too, but he would never order others to do so. The more I think about his noble act, the more cowardly I believe it was.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Dan_Raven,
Not only cowardly, but misguided as well. I can see the moral difference that your professor was trying to draw, but the reality is that it doesn't matter whether you're an officer or enlisted, you're going to be urging others to kill and die.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
My desire to choose non-combat first has nothing to do with "freeing up the position for men" or wanting them to be hurt. Men also have the OPTION of choosing non-combat positions.
I can shoot a gun as well as anyone. I'm just saying I would rather not. Not that I wouldn't if I wasn't given non-combat.
Farmgirl
Posted by Grigori (Member # 6917) on :
I'm already in, so I'm not worried about being drafted. I've been deployed to several countries, most of whom didn't care much for us. We (the military) spend a lot of time as the world police.
I don't know about 'spreading american ideals' though...
I thought Freedom, good health, and peace of mind were entitled to all human beings. As well as to defend oneself from those who would try and take those freedoms away.
Maybe I've just got the wrong view on all of this, being on the inside, looking out... But I see too many people talking about how wrong things are and too few doing anything positive about it.
It's your choice, to serve or not, to support those who serve, or not...
It's just a shame that so many who ask for so much do so little to earn it, much less appreciate it.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Permit me to point out, the Navy can be just as dangerous - if you get assigned to a ship and it takes a hit, you're going nowhere but straight down.
And it usually takes a Navy ship to generate fires hot enough to melt aluminum.
I'd sign up for the Army and aim for a medic unit if possible, mostly for the training and knowledge, but I wouldn't shy away from a combat unit which is where I probably would end up.
As for encouraging others to fight and die - you don't have many options available to you when you're under the gun. More times than not, I am told, you're returning fire because the little bastard at the other end of the field is doing his damndest to kill you.
How does that phrase go? "You're not here to die for your country. Any fool can do it. You're here to make the other fellow die for his."
And ladies, let's hear it for women's lib. Equal rights, equal responsibility.
-Trevor
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
Suddenly, instead of being an unwanted leech upon society, our government decides society does have a use for me after all. I think I will pass on this one; I care nothing for Iraqis and am not willing to die for them. Bush's war is not mine.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
You know the funny thing about my attitude re: the draft? Whenever I've thought about it, it hasn't been the thought of combat that has made me nervous. It's boot camp and PT. I hate the thought of anybody forcing me to get in shape, physically.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: It's just a shame that so many who ask for so much do so little to earn it, much less appreciate it
I agree with him...
I just got an e-mail from one of my friends who is currently over seas serving and to quote him,
quote: I'm not worried about dieing, they'd have to learn to aim first, and I don't plan on giving them time to to that.
To sum up what he's said to me, The Iraqis who are shooting at us, are barly trained and the only way they ever get one of us is with traps, not by being good marksmen.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Dead is dead.
The Viet Cong knew they couldn't go toe-to-toe with the US firepower, so they employed hit-and-run guerilla tactics and psych warfare.
A bomb will kill you just as surely as a well-trained, motivated soldier.
-Trevor
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:You know the funny thing about my attitude re: the draft? Whenever I've thought about it, it hasn't been the thought of combat that has made me nervous. It's boot camp and PT. I hate the thought of anybody forcing me to get in shape, physically.
That's an interesting view (and not terribly surprising, actually). It certainly sounds like boot camp is potentially more brutal than many jobs in the military (not sure how it compares to actual combat, though).
And actually, one major problem that I'd have with being in the military is that I have a strong dislike of rigid hierarchy and I don't like having my autonomy taken away. In fact, it's very likely I'd be kicked out (or shot!) for insubordination. I also probably wouldn't be mentally stable in such a situation and might be a danger to myself or others (especially a commander who might get me killed through incompetence). And I absolutely could never order other people do to anything that could get them killed. I didn't even like telling people to hurry up and finish their stories before the deadline back when I was yearbook editor.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I have a question about drafts, although it may be a dumb one.
It's this: If there was a draft and one person drafted dodged it, would they draft someone else to replace the person who dodged it?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Hee hee. Well, a girl in my company got a summons today, addressed to a guy who lived in her appartment before her. She calls them to say he doesn't live there anymore.
She (making fun of the situation): "You know, it says the police would come for him if he doesn't appear. I don't want the police to come and get my boyfriend instead"
Them (serious): "Are you crazy? You think if the police don't find who they're looking for, they'd take someone else with them?"
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Flee to Canada to avoid the draft?
Heck, thousands are fleeing to Candad to get a freaking flu shot Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Haha! Without the vaccine, we'd better all be "draft dodgers" this flu season.
I would go if drafted. But I would bitch, bitch BITCH!
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I would go, although I'd be more likely to have already signed up, as some others have already mentioned.
Heck, I can't guarantee I won't sign up as soon as I'm out of college, the only reason I haven't already is that I'd never make it to boot camp....my girlfriend of 3 years would kill me or hold me hostage...she has threatened to several times!
But seriously, I would go. The thought of dodging would never even cross my mind.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Phone call from when I was in high school:
Recruiter--"Hello, this is Sargeant Randall, recruiter for the US Army. Is Dan in?"
My mother--"I'm sorry sargeant Randall, my son wouldn't make a good soldier."
Recruiter--"um, why is that?"
My Mother--"He wouldn't be able to march with his broken legs."
Rerutier--"He broke his legs? When did that happen."
My Mother--"The moment he tries to sign your enlistment papers I plan on breaking them. Thank you. Good day." Click.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I'd go and so would Andrew. Andrew actually wanted to join the Air Force when he was younger, but they don't let 6'5'' color-blind guys into the Armed Forces.
I wonder if he would be allowed to serve in a non-combat capacity, though? He's trained in logic and could do code-breaking. One of his logic professors actually did that during WWII.
Andrew's dad worked for the DOD during Vietnam - they recruited him because he's a freakishly smart physics and engineering guy.
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
quote:Maybe I've just got the wrong view on all of this, being on the inside, looking out... But I see too many people talking about how wrong things are and too few doing anything positive about it.
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