"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."
--Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic
This is the legacy that FDR has left us, thanks for opening that can of worms. We had the greatest country 90 years ago. I believe we are on selfishness right about now....
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
hmmm...Johnny Truant. I dig the name.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I find that it is always better to stir the brain before stirring any emotion. Here's a link for you: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, jtruant.
Accuracy is a must for posts, though -- and for being a community member acting in good faith. It helps the discourse, too.
[ November 08, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
I apologize, the version of the quote I found was slightly different. Mistakes are made. Stir your own brain. Thanks for the pro-Bush page...
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
Accuracy, yes I undersand. Thanks for the welcome. The discourse is ...delightful.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Great. Another one...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So, based on the quote and your response, the Republican majority represents dictatorship and tyranny. Though I wasn't sure, it's nice to see confirmation.
How do the words to O, Canada! go?
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
I keep searching and according to the majority, my version of the quote is more correct, not to spite, but for accuracy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No, see, it's not. You're picking up the wrong lesson from my link.
A more careful search will reveal that the phrase as originally misattributed in the 1950s mentioned "largesse" instead of "money;" the word "treasure" you've cited is, of course, actually "treasury" in all correct versions.
However, the bigger problem is this: the person to whom the quote is attributed never wrote a book by the title cited, and the quote doesn't appear in any of his actual works. Moreover, the last half of the quote has been independently attributed -- again, largely mythologically -- to separate sources.
While the quote may or may not have a kernel of truth to it, its source is completely fictional.
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
Actually, you are on to something.
The far right are considered facists.
The far left are considered socialists.
Both are wrong. Democracy is right, unfortunately, we are consistantly shoved one way or the other by partisanism.
I accept neither party.
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
TD-
I understand your post now. Thanks for clarification. Sorry.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
jtruant
Tell us a little about yourself. What brought you to this place?
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
The majority doesn't get to decide the truth, though.
But, more importantly, Tytler does not seem to be correct, even if that IS his quote. What nations have progressed through the cycle he mentions? In recent history, very few (if any) ever have fallen into bondage because of dependency. Many have not fallen at all, despite being around hundreds of years. Depending on how you define "world civilizations," the average age is probably closer to 500-1000 years.
Even Athens doesn't fit the cycle given here. Athens did not arise from bondage, for instance. And it was neither complacency nor dependency nor apathy that led it to fall - it was the might of Alexander the Great, and later the Romans.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Oh, hey, you can't be a fence-sitter around here. You're either a conservative or a liberal. That is the spectrum. There is no other way to define yourself. Deny it all you want. It's indeconstructable.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Sara, you are a better person than I am.
AJ
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:We had the greatest country 90 years ago. I believe we are on selfishness right about now....
90 years ago, women didn't have the constitutional right to vote in the United States. The use of the poll tax in Southern states was one of many means used to prevent voting of blacks AND poor whites. Lynchings were - if not exactly common - not really uncommon either.
It probably was "the greatest" country if you belonged to the right ethnic/religious/racial group and you weren't a woman. Kind of hard times on a lot of others, though.
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
I believe the qoute should be taken as a token only, perhaps more closely related to Rome, except the time span allocated....
Your guess is as good as mine.
Sara- ummm, what would you like to know, obviously I don't know how much people generally divulge...
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote: it was the might of Alexander the Great, and later the Romans.
as well as athens' war with sparta.
[ November 08, 2004, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Welcome to the forum! People divulge as much about themselves as they feel comfortable divulging. For now, just let us know a bit about you--who you are, where you're at in you life, what your interests are, how you found the site--whatever you think is important that you feel comfortable sharing. Don't worry about being inappropraitely revealing, or about not revealing enough--just say what you're comfortable saying, and things will go from there.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
AJ: No, just resigned to the uproar that comes with the influx. Stephen is a better person than either of use, especially with regards to self control, methinks.
jtruant, you can be as open or not as you choose. Often people start with basic stuff, like how they found OSC's work, what they like about it, and why they came here. Most of us old-timers know much more about each other, both big and little stuff. We get together in real life every now and then in different areas of the country.
Oh, and what sndrake said. Totally. All the "better days" nostalgia depends completely on who you are counting in the equation.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Uh, what Noemon said.
( Dagnabbit. *resets lifewatch to "two minutes before everyone else )
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Start with your bank account number, and we'll go from there. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sara--
jtruant--don't forget your mother's maiden name. Oh, and your SSN.
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
Well, I am in my 20's, serving in the Army (going on my 6th year), I own a small business that deals in outdoor recreational gear, I have a degree in History, trying to get back in college for more, I just read a broad spectrum, even my name comes from a book a read and I became a member of that forum.... I'm a dog person...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
...and enjoys long walks on the beach...
oh, wait, no. wrong box.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, jtruant. Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
not much of a beach person if you must know...
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
Not sure if there are many beaches in Effingham, IL.
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
lake sara... wow. It's good stuff...
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:I'm a dog person...
Really? We used to have a lizardman, but he doesn't show up too often these days....
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
Dog persons are like the lizard king.
They all take from Carlos Castaneda
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
lol.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
They go,
O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The true North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!
*helpful*
Jen
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What period/place in history did you focus on, jtruant?
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:90 years ago, women didn't have the constitutional right to vote in the United States. The use of the poll tax in Southern states was one of many means used to prevent voting of blacks AND poor whites. Lynchings were - if not exactly common - not really uncommon either.
It probably was "the greatest" country if you belonged to the right ethnic/religious/racial group and you weren't a woman. Kind of hard times on a lot of others, though.
sndrake, while I don't argue with any of the problems you cite, they don't really do much to invalidate a comparative statement like "The U.S. was the greatEST country in the world!" unless you also provide evidence that other countries were doing better during the same era. I mean, if we sucked, but everyone else sucked worse, we were still the greatEST Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Puppy,
the statement I was responding to seemed to imply there was more selfishness now than back then. There were plenty of selfish people back then, living off the oppression of others.
It probably was the greatest country for protestant white men above a certain income. It certainly wasn't the "greatest" country for blacks and there were countries where women fared at least as well - sometimes better - than here.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Or:
O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux, Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux! Car ton bras sait porter l'épée, Il sait porter la croix! Ton histoire est un épopée Des plus brilliants exploits. Et ta valeur, de foi trempée, Protégera nos foyers et nos droits. Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.
(we're bilingual, remember!)
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:sndrake, while I don't argue with any of the problems you cite, they don't really do much to invalidate a comparative statement like "The U.S. was the greatEST country in the world!" unless you also provide evidence that other countries were doing better during the same era. I mean, if we sucked, but everyone else sucked worse, we were still the greatEST
90 years ago, the US was an upstart that just gained lands from kicking Spain while it was down, Britain and other nations were way ahead of the US in terms of women's suffrage, civil rights in the US compared to other nations were abysmal (other leading nations abolished slavery long before the US), the US economy was neither the strongest nor the fastest growing...
We had great potential, but we were not the greatest nation in 1914 Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. The French version is considerably less martial.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You mean the English version is less martial, right?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You've got to factor in what was happening with colonization at the time, too.
The U.S. was barely in the same colonial league as France and Britain at that point, even counting what happened with Spain.
I have no idea how it all balances out, but Britain's equality and civilization didn't extend to a lot of people ruled by the British Empire.
Dagonee
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Hm. Odd. I go to Hamline. Looks like Professor Olson was misquoted. I think he did a talk a bit ago in my Global Studies Class.
Edit: Oh. Nope. But he does still teach here.
[ November 08, 2004, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Ryuko ]
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
I'd have to agree with Sndrake about the 90 years ago figure... there wasn't much to recommend it as an American golden age.
And I've have to wholeheartedly agree with Xap about the 200 year cycle and the demise of democracy, especially pertaining to the United States.
While the current state of our economy and deficit makes it look very attactive as a philosophy, I'd be hesitant to bet anything on an outcome as extreme as that line of thinking suggests.
Of course, beyond the government, we are becoming a debt-slavery society...
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Also, as to the original source of the quote, (the whole Gore is the evil downfall of democracy)...
...part of the quotes thoery is that fiscal looseness comes before the end... Bush is immensely loose fiscally. So loose that we've gone from a surplus to an enourmous deficit.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Hi JT I am new too, its funny to see these people nit pick the exact words of your quote and who wrote it, never looking at the sentiment you are showing.
We see all kinds of the Give me more from the treasury types, I am so sick of hearing about how perfectly healthy people can't get as much as they want in our unfair world. You are a soldier and a store keeper and a student, I think that is a lot of accomplishment for a young man.
Watch out for him lads and ladies, he is rolling!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Hi JT I am new too, its funny to see these people nit pick the exact words of your quote and who wrote it, never looking at the sentiment you are showing."
The reason I've attacked the source and questioned the validity of the quote is that, without a reputable source or valid quote, it's just sentiment; it's an appeal to bias and emotion, no more inherently valid than any other opinion. The quote makes a sweeping statement while appealing to the presumed author's authority; removing that authority leaves the sweeping statement to stand on its own.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:You've got to factor in what was happening with colonization at the time, too.
The U.S. was barely in the same colonial league as France and Britain at that point, even counting what happened with Spain.
I have no idea how it all balances out, but Britain's equality and civilization didn't extend to a lot of people ruled by the British Empire.
I am not trying to prove that Britain was the greatest nation in the world. I was pointing out that the US was most definitely NOT the greatest nation in the world. Britain had their own problems, as did other nations. The US did not gain a dominant status in the world until well after the first World War.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Socialism is what is sentiment, bunch of intellectuals dealing with the world as they wish it would be. Reality is that some cultures will steal the power lines as fast as you can put them up and sell them for scrap, and they love to have a strong dictator to follow.
What is being said is that democracy is hard, it is bought with blood, paid for with self sacrifice, and maintained with hard work and common sense. Sorry but if you do not already believe that as an assumption you are part of the problem.
When the parasites outnumber the patriots then we won't be able to carry them anymore and we can all starve together or we will throw them off and you will see that fall into tyranny...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Sorry but if you do not already believe that as an assumption you are part of the problem."
In your opinion, of course. And as much as I respect your freedom to be sentimental, that doesn't make you any more "right" than the anonymous author of the imaginary quote above.
[ November 09, 2004, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I am not trying to prove that Britain was the greatest nation in the world. I was pointing out that the US was most definitely NOT the greatest nation in the world. Britain had their own problems, as did other nations. The US did not gain a dominant status in the world until well after the first World War.
I was simply trying to add an element that is too often left out of discussions about relative human rights records. While England was granting suffrage, they were also carrying out campaigns of oppression in their colonies.
Dagonee
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Some days I covet TomD's brain. I bet it smells really spicey.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Hi JT I am new too, its funny to see these people nit pick the exact words of your quote and who wrote it, never looking at the sentiment you are showing
The newbies! I'm telling you, they're organized.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Man Sara, when you said that the final weeks of your medical training left you feeling like a zombie, I just assumed you were using hyperbole!
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I bet you have spicey brains, too, Noemon. All those scintillating sciencey links.
Sayyy ... is that a fly stuck in your hair? COme a little closer and let me take care of that for you ... Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::runs screaming in terror, then trips just like people always do when fleeing from zombies::
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
In politics, we often hear about constituents who bribe politicians with money and gifts and are then rewarded with legislative favors. In my estimation, the opposite is often true. Politicians bribe their constituents with money and gifts, and are rewarded with votes.
This happens on both sides of the aisle. Republicans usually bribe the populace through tax cuts, and Democrats usually do it through entitlement programs which are usually inefficient.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Kat, It probably has something to do with them all being associated with the military. Or some of their other commonalities.
---
Affluence breeds a distaste for discomfort and affords a buffer from reality so that people's poorly considered beliefs and actions don't result in clearly bad effects. You don't have to go back to Athens for this. Tulipmania provides a better example.
Democracy isn't anywhere near as affected by entitlement programs as it is by America's amazing economic prosperity. People didn't go into a huge tizzy a few years ago when Amazon.com went down because of DOS attacks because of welfare. They did it because the environment has allowed them to have an underdeveloped sense of what's significant.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Kat, It probably has something to do with them all being associated with the military. Or some of their other commonalities.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
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No, just resigned to the uproar that comes with the influx. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Dagnabbit. *resets lifewatch to "two minutes before everyone else )
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)