Why do people hate her? I'm not in love with her, but she provokes the strongest emotions. She was a good student, good mother, a good First Lady, a good senator, and she didn't even divorce of lecherous husband, which makes me think that she is a better wife than he deserves. She isn't demure, but neither are any of the neocons. I'm not pushing her for president, mind you, but whence all of these strong feelings?
[ November 08, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I was just talking about this with my parents last night. We're mystified too.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I ain't havin' no WOMAN in charge a this here fine country!
Every man born equal! Every woman born... in the kitchen!
[ November 08, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
I can answer that, she took the honor guard of Marines that are put at the disposal of the President and had them serve tid-bits to democrat donors. I hope they do run her, we won't have the W and we will need a Democrat we can beat!
Oh By the way I am Jimmy, X-Marine MP and old goat, I like Cards books and just thought I would post on this topic since I have an opinion. Looks like a pretty liberal crowd.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Thanks Jar Head, nice to know ya. btw, you mind the Bush fighter pilot bit?
[ November 08, 2004, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
He is the Commander and Chief, and he did fly as far as I know. It was as real as a hangover as far as I could see.
Now Kerry's medals... do not get me started, I am just ramping down my blood pressure medication since I do not have to see him on the TV all the time. Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I don't loathe her -- I'm another one of those people who's mystified by the hate she attracts. I just don't think she's that impressive; from what I've read, she screwed up the chance for Health Care Reform back in Clinton's first term by not involving enough people and by making the plan needlessly complicated.
I think she's got a reputation for treating her staff badly, but then Bush does too -- that seems to be a pretty common failing of politicians...
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I don't like her because she's a liberal and likes to allege a "vast right wing conspricacy." I was personally annoyed that she was the representative for Jews during that whole debate over posthumous baptisms by Mormons. I also personally believe the only reason she stayed with Bill is because of her own personal political ambition.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Any number of reasons, depending on whom you ask.
She's an opinionated woman who speaks her mind in every situation. She used the prestige and power of being First Lady to further her own agenda. She does not present the image of a supportive, submissive wife. Far worse than being a liberal ivory-tower intellectual Democrat, she's a female liberal ivory-tower intellectual Democrat. She speaks out for many of the unpopular aspects of the Democratic Party platform. She's for gun control, she's very pro-choice, she favors more regulation of tobacco, she supports Israel wholeheartedly, and is easy to paint with the socialist brush. She is believed by many to be opportunistic and scheming, heartless and cold, nasty and rude. I don't know how much of that (if any) is true. I do know that several e-mails and newsmax.com articles floated around for awhile with lists of how horrible she is, most of which were quickly debunked. Head to www.snopes.com and do a search for "Hillary" to see some of them. She was involved in shady business dealings in Arkansas. Or not. I've lost track. She isn't the most diplomatic person in the world, and doesn't suffer fools gladly.
And probably a thousand more reasons.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Amen Brother! Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Chris, thank you for explaining why I like her. I never really analyzed it before.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Long live someone becoming President who isn't white and male and straight!
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Me or newfoundlogic?
I didn't say I agreed with any of that. I honestly don't know. I haven't studied her campaign promises, voting record or the list of bills she's authored/sponsored, and anything else is just propaganda in either direction.
I do think, judging from reactions, that running her for president would be the stupidest thing the Democratic Party could do. She polarizes a room by walking into it. This may not be fair to her, but I think it's a real danger.
Rivka: I tried to word it carefully. If you hate her you'll agree with me, if you like her you'll agree with me.
[ November 08, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I like Hilary Clinton. Her book was very good and true. She seems like a not so bad person. I can't really see why she's hated so much...
Posted by jtruant (Member # 7016) on :
Long live your backwards bigotry!
Im kidding.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
She's too political, too extreme, and I am unimpressed by her political priorities and arguments. I'm inclined to believe she stands for the old-style Democratic party, and not someone who knows how to address the needs of today. I think Kerry is a much better candidate than her.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm not especially impressed by her, but neither do I see her as the anti-christ. So far I haven't really heard a reason to despise her. I can see not wanting her to be president, if one is conservative, and I don't have any particular opinion about how well she'd do in the office, but the utter, electrifying loathing that some feel toward her continues to mystify me. Jar Head, am I correct in thinking that you're one who loaths her? If so that's great, because I'd love to pick your mind about this.
By the way, Jar Head, it's interesting--those on the right typically see Hatrack as a pretty left leaning place, while those on the left typically see the forum as leaning to the right.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I have some interesting extrapolation on that topic, Noemon. In reading about American Politics I discovered a quote that highlights that phenomenon.
I'll try to paraphrase it. It was a republican senator (Utah, if you must know, but the Republican is the important bit) and he said something like. "The two parties are increasingly divided: the Democrats are very far left and the Republicans are mostly to the right."
This wasn't very recently but recently enough. I thought it was funny. Obviously if he was a Democrat he would have said that "all Republicans are very far right and Democrats mostly to the left."
Hee hee.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I would say that most of the people on most of the issues lean to the left. There are still some conservatives here. The Hatrack Exit Poll had Kerry winning by a significant margin.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Of course, as was pointed out on that thread there was considerable bias in who chose to post how they'd voted.
There are a few people foaming at the mouths on both ends of the spectrum, with the rest of the forum sread out fairly evenly between the two poles. That's my impression anyway. Some years one side sounds stronger than the other, but that's usually because of one or two particularly noisy, forceful people. They usually go away after a while.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What makes her 'extreme', Tres?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Very true Teshi.
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
It just seems to be leftist dominated because thats where all the smart people are. . . . . I'M KIDDING. Dagonee in particular has helped to remove some of my own unfair perceptions of conservatives.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The whole "It takes a village to raise a child" idea gets my blood boiling.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Why though? I can't help thinking that's a true concept. Families need a lot of resources and help to raise children these days. It's not like in the past sadly where there were extended familis to help. It should be like that nowadays. Aunts, grandparents, uncles, all helping young couples to raise kids when they need help. Neighbours protecting the children. If both people need to work, there should be good day care to help out. It just makes sense to me...
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
I'm not Republican or Democrat, the sides seem pretty well balanced here on those ends of the spectrum. I do feel very much in the minority as a Libertarian.
I don't see Hillary Clinton as a fire breathing monster, but nor do I see her as a great herald of a new age. As a female I would kinda like to see the first female president elected soon, but she is too socialist for my tastes.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I don't want to make anyone angry but is it a possibilty that the common theme among supporters is like that of adam613's? They will support her to a certain level and then stop for whatever reason?
If so (and I am treading on worrying ground, this is just a theory) is it perhaps because a female person as president is a problem for most people to get their heads around? Is it a subconcious criticism that causes everyone to stop supporting her? Is such a thing possible and is it probable?
If so, is this because Hilary Clinton has been first lady, for legitimate reasons, or is it because of her gender?
Again, I am speculating.
If we go from the order historical acceptance, the first "different" president will be a black man, then a woman, then a homosexual person. Is it possible that even supporters of women in politics still have an unconcious belief that they are never quite good enough?
Thoughts? Criticism? Flat denouncements?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
OH, HOW I WISH we'd have a gay president. Or at least a bi one... I'd run for pres and be the first black female questionable lifestyle (though I haven't done anything!) president if I were more respectable and didn't have an aversion to dressing up and BSing, all of the things that are required when running for office.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
If Condoleeza Rice got the VP nom, as OSC suggested she might, I would probably vote for her in '08. As it stands now I don't think being NSA constitutes as enough experience. So I'm pretty sure its not a gender issue for me.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Hillary has a strong paternalistic streak. She really seems to want the government deeply involved in peoples' lives (I'm a liberal, but not that sort of liberal).
Oh god... Rice? That is madness. I don't know, so is Cheney from my point of view.
[ November 08, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Destineer ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
What, she uses too much hair spray?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm going to wait for someone who would vote for her to show up. Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: The whole "It takes a village to raise a child" idea gets my blood boiling.
I agree. Like I'm going to take advice on parenting from a person who had ONE KID decides she's an expert. But that's just the Mormon in me.
Personally, I can see Hilary with a whip in one hand and a chain tied to the US in another. I honestly don't think we need a Dominatrix for President.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:
quote:The whole "It takes a village to raise a child" idea gets my blood boiling.
Why though?
It's one thing to receive help if you need it. It's quite another for the government to force it upon you whether you want it or not.
After all, you can't trust the ignorant masses to indoctrinat^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H raise their kids like they "should" be raised.
[ November 09, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Ok, that I would disagree with. How could the government force people to raise their kids a certain way? When I think of the phrase it takes a village I think of improving education and preventing kids from slipping through the cracks
Posted by WishfulWiggin (Member # 6823) on :
I think most people dislike Hillary Clinton because she acts exactly how all other politicians act, except she is a woman. We have seen male politicians as strong willed and as controlling as her, and yet people have problems with the same traits when there in a woman.
I am not saying that this is the reason behond all of those that dislike her, but I am sure that this is at least part of the reason behind why people dislike her.
I would probably vote for her if she did run on '08. I have to research he views more thoroughly, but I like the idea of a female president. It would be cool.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
"I also personally believe the only reason she stayed with Bill is because of her own personal political ambition."
She gets no credit for trying to keep the family together? I thought conservatives are all about family values?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Personally, I can see Hilary with a whip in one hand and a chain tied to the US in another. I honestly don't think we need a Dominatrix for President."
Hm. I would argue that Hilary has demonstrated fewer "domineering" tendencies than our current president, and yet I cannot imagine Boris comparing Bush to a dominatrix.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Boris is sexist.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
She seems rather shrill, IMO.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I wasn't attacking you, adam613, just using you as an example of someone who supports her to a certain level, then stops.
I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to say they'd vote for H. Clinton has President.
There are so many reasons why not, are there any reason why?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I might vote for her, but I might not. I haven't followed her career closely enough to know what kind of a leader she'd make. It would depend entirely on what I thought of that after I'd looked into it, and who was running against her.
She strikes me as a very bright, capable person, which certainly counts in her favor.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
If she were elected President, I guess that would make Bill Clinton the First Man? Is that the right term?
How weird would that be? Eight years as PUSA, and now you're PUSA's spouse. Same White House, same country, but now the reins are in your wife's hands.
That would not be easy.
[ November 09, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If she won, it would be her turn.
I'd be so very, incredibly impressed with him if he behaved as a gentleman. He didn't when he was in office, so I don't have a lot of hope for that though.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I don't really think that he'd have the self control to stay out of the spotlight.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: Boris is sexist.
GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN!!! (JK) No really, I was joking about the dominatrix thing. And, call me Naive, but isn't a dominatrix supposed to be a woman? But I think Hilary cheats on Bill as much as he cheats on her. "Holding the family together" is almost entirely political. I mean, there isn't much of a family to actually HOLD TOGETHER. It's them and Chelsea, who actually seems to be more mature than the two of them. Chelsea Clinton for president in...2016 I think?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh. Sexist humor. How charming.
There's no place for that.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I can see how being right back at the center of power, with no authority anymore, could make you feel a bit impotent.
I would understand if he spent most of his time away from the White House and the city altogether.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I mean, there isn't much of a family to actually HOLD TOGETHER."
On what grounds do you make that statement? Have you hung out with them, or are you assuming that any couple with admitted infidelities can't be all that close?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Question -- would it be constitutional for Bill to run as Hillary's running mate?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Raising one good kid is enough to earn your parenting stripes to me. I just have high standards as to what a good kid is.
[ November 09, 2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: Question -- would it be constitutional for Bill to run as Hillary's running mate?
Can an ex-president become a vice president?
If so then it's all good.
It's probably no in the constitution- it would never happen.
[ November 09, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Not if they've served two terms.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Thank you Noemon-of-great-wisdom-who-knows-answers-to-things-I-don't.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Watch me be wrong.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Then I will take it all back. No more blessings for you.
There's probably a rule somewhere or else a President could just "pretend" to be VP and really have all the power, this being in power for 16 years.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As I understand it, Noemon is wrong. A president cannot campaign for a third term, but could serve as vice president and become president if the president died.
If this sounds weird, imagine it in reverse: someone is on their second year of the vice-presidency when the president dies. They become president. They then win the next election. Are they only entitled to six years of presidency, or can they run for re-election -- for ten years of presidency?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, no more blessings for me, assuming that Tom's got the right of it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You Americans are crazy
</Obelix>
*renounces blessings from Noemon and bestows on TomDavidson*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I broke down and looked it up.
quote: No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.
So Tom's theoretical VP *could* serve for 10 years, but not 11.
And it just says that you can't be elected President. I'll bet he could be elected VP.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Hillary as president, and Bill as VP.
Somehow it almost seems like incest.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
What could be more natural than having your mate as your running mate?
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Don't we need a more varied gene pool in the White House? Otherwise the cabinet might turn out a little "strange." Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well, with any luck they don't share any more genes that would, say, Clinton and whoever else she might choose as her running mate.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
quote:After all, you can't trust the ignorant masses to indoctrinat^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H raise their kids like they "should" be raised.
In many (most?) cases, I actually think that's true. Most children are indoctrinated by their parents, and it's a shame. But it's a conundrum for me, because I don't think we can trust the government either.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
He would only be allowed to run for his second term if he served one day less than half of the previous president's term as president. So technically no one could be president for ten years, but they could be president for nine years and 364 days.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
OK, here's the plan: Run Bill Clinton as VP to a candidate who's dying of cancer! Then 3 months after the election when the new "President" croaks, Bill takes the reins once more.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
NFL: Well, as I tell the people who miss testing out of my course by one or two points, we gotta draw the line somewhere...
[ November 09, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Megan ]
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
Someone mentioned supportive and submissive to husband together as if they only exist side by side. I think that is a little insulting to every supportive wife out there. The best marriages are equal partnerships, with supportiveness of both spouses for the other, and no true submissiveness.
I don't think Hillary Clinton is some awful person, but I also got irritated with "right wing conspiracy" remarks, and dislike her interpretation of "it takes a village" (I believe that is true, but I have my own interpretation).
I think the reason we doubt the sincerety of Hillary staying with Bill is because we so rarely see them along side each other now that Bill is no longer president. I think she has never really felt that sincere to a lot of people, and that is what grates on the public. So they doubt her sincerity in everything, including her marriage and even her motherhood.
To back this up, most women who stayed with a man as unfaithful as Bill has been are considered to have low self esteem, or are staying out of fear (social, physical, emotional, etc). They are considered weak to put up with such jerks of men. One affair, okay... but a pattern of adultry? We women who see other women do that feel pity for them, and sometimes exasperation: "You're a WOMAN, you don't have to put up with that." But there is one other reason a woman might stay with such a man and that is because she has something to gain. We see women who do that as conniving and manipulative. Hillary is neither weak, nor has she ever been perceived with pity. So to our minds, there really can be only one reason for her to stay with someone that is so obviously untrue to their marriage: she has something to gain.
I think Martha Stewart grates on the public in the same way. So many Good Things, but would we really feel comfortable in her home? Poor thing didn't have as many connections as Hillary, and so she was found guilty while Hillary was not.
That Hillary never lived in New York before she decided to be a senator bothers me as well. This adds another point against sincerity. The Whitewater scandal also grates against me. This subtracts a point from integrity.
These are the reasons people don't like Hillary very much.
I think she see things that are wrong, and she wants to correct them. That is originally why she wanted power. That is a point in her favor. I think she has let go of what is important in the small circle(marriage) for what is important in the larger circle(society). That happens sometimes, many times with our leaders. So I won't hold that against her. But I think our best leaders are able to make the small circle as well as the large circle succeed.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Nice, informative, interesting post, Amka.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Someone mentioned supportive and submissive to husband together as if they only exist side by side. I think that is a little insulting to every supportive wife out there. The best marriages are equal partnerships, with supportiveness of both spouses for the other, and no true submissiveness.
Thank you for pointing that out Amka, it bothered me too.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:I ain't havin' no WOMAN in charge a this here fine country!
Every man born equal! Every woman born... in the kitchen!
Jebus - I don't think you will have any trouble with her being in charge of YOUR fine country -- since I haven't heard of any plans of her becoming a British citizen anytime soon....
FG
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
That and there has been Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher...
I think the only woman in the United States that currently has the experience needed in my opinion to be president in House minority leader Nancy Pelosi and she is way, way too liberal for my tastes.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Do you mean you voted against W the first time around, nfl? Because he certainly had far less experience than most of the decent number of women governors that exist now and have been around in the past, and you just said you didn't think any of them had the experience to be president.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I'll admit that was a mistake. But as of now there are no female governors in the national spotlight which is necessary to make a presidential run. Its certainly possible a female governor could establish herself in the primaries, but as of now in my opinion Pelosi is the only woman in the country with the experience and recognition to make a run and I don't agree with her politics. I would also argue that Edwards being a freshman senator was equally unqualified. As to whom I would vote for based on experience, it should also be noted that one often finds him or herself voting as much against a canidate as voting for one.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Man, you speak so confidently.
What about Granholm. I don't think she was born here, but Arnold may take care of that for her. Janet Napolitano, and I know some people really like Kathleen Sebelius.
[ November 09, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
On a side bar, I've had a lot of people mention the fact that Hillary Clinton will be running for President in 08.
And all of them have been Republicans.
It seems to be a Rove Republican Plan, to get someone who is so controversial as the nominee-presumptive.
This can help instil fear into their base--stay with us or next time this liberal wild woman will be in charge.
And if done subtley enough, it might convince enough Democrats that she is the natural choice to run. She has too much baggage--too easy to take pot shots at--to win a presidential election. This is just what Mr. Rove would love.
Or I could be just paranoid, but after he admitted the whole "Gay Marriage Ballots" were simply to draw conservatives to the voter booths, I won't put much past the man.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Diane Feinstein.
Barbara Boxer.
Olympia Snowe.
Ann Richards.
Christine Todd Whitman.
All these women have more than sufficient experience and name recognition to be elected President, except they're women.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Nope, Bill can't be VP.
quote: But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
Although, apparently, it's been debated.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yeah, and that's the reasoning Bill cites for why he can't be VP. And its likely sound.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Whoohoo! Got my blessings back!
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: I know some people really like Kathleen Sebelius.
*cough* Kathleen Sebelius??? My GOVERNOR???
Ms. Pro-Casinos-In-Every-County governor?
(She is one Democrat that I actually voted for -- those of you who think I'm not flexible. But there have been times I have regretted it)
FG
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
*tosses blessings to four winds*
Everyone gets some! Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Farmgirl,
I can't get a read on her. I know she is a moderate, but apparently she was running against a mean person.
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