In the beginning, God created the skies and the land. And the earth was turmoiled, and darkness upon the depths; and the Spirit of God was floating upon the water. And God said “be there light”, and there was light. And God separated the light and the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness he called night; it was evening, it was morning, Day One.
God said “be there a Haven in the water; may it sperate water from water”. And God made the Heaven: and separated the water under the Heaven and the water over the Haven; and so it was. God called the Heaven sky; it was evening, it was morning, Second Day.
God said “be the water collected from under the sky to one place, and be the earth seen”; and so it was. God called the earth land, and the collected water he called sea; and God saw it was good. God said “extract the land grass, plants seeding seeds, fruit trees fruiting to its species”, and so it was. And the land extracted grass, plants seeding plants to their species, and fruiting trees whose seed is in it for its species; and God saw it was good. It was evening, it was morning, Third Day.
God said “be there lighters in the Heaven of the skies: to separate, between the day and the night; and they will be for signals, and for celebrations, and for days and years”. And there were lighters in the Heaven of the skies to shine upon the land; and so it was. And God made the two great lighters; the major one for the reign of the day, and the minor lighter for the reign of the night, and the stars. And God put them in the Heaven of the skies; to shine upon the land. And to reign during the day and night and to separate between the light and the darkness; and God saw it was good. It was evening, it was morning, Fourth Day.
Directly from Hebrew, the most accurate version known (Koren).
That's so far. Comments (I'll see them tomorrow morning)?
Jonny
[ December 20, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
So what is the "water above?" Are we talking about clouds, or are we talking about water that got allocated to another planet somewhere out there?
How could there have been light before there were sun, moon, and stars?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm impressed Jon! I can't evauate your translation, because I don't speak any form of Hebrew, but I'm impressed nonetheless.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
All creation stories begin with the seperation of the waters, or chaos. It's just making order out of chaos.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
On the lights on 1st or 4th day question (this is apologetic, btw, so keep that in mind):
It is our belief that Genesis describes creation from the perspective of a human on the earth.
Genesis 1:3 reads "Let there be 'light'" ('ohr in Hebrew), referring to light in a general sense being discernable to an observer on earth.
Genesis 1:14 refers to ma-'ohr', which means "luminaries" or sources of light, like the Greater and Lesser luminary (sun and moon) and the stars.
Moreover, in Genesis 1:16, it doesn't say that God "created" (ba'ra) the luminaries but that he "made" ('a-sah') them.
Thus, first the universe is created (1:1), including the sun, moon and stars. But, as verse 2 indicates, the entire earth was covered with water, diffusing that light. Then, in 6-8, an "expanse" (ra-qi'a',translated as 'firmament' in KJ) was created by separating the waters into two layers, those above and those below. The waters 'above' continued to pose a partial barrier to light passing through, and thus the light reaching the earth was still diffused, or indirect.
In time, by the fourth 'day' or creative period, that diffusion had cleared up in enough that the luminaries could be distinctly discerned. It appeared that God had just 'made' them, to an observer on earth. The were 'made' to occupy a more visible relationship to the earth, though they had been created prior to the 1st creative epoch when God "created the Heavens and the Earth".
FWIW
Ian
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
So we had too much water to begin with, and God floated some of it off into space so that we could have some dry land?
Posted by JayTaylorWV (Member # 4399) on :
KJV:
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. [5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. [6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. [9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [13] And the evening and the morning were the third day. [14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Cool
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, skillery, Jon is an avowed athiest--If you're trying to pick a fight with him based on the literal truth of this passage, I don't think you're going to get very far.
He didn't post this translation to try to argue its literal truth. I think he did it in much the same spirit that I would have posted my translations of snippets of Greek, back when I was taking classes in it, had Hatrack been around then. I don't actually *believe* that Thetis appealed to Zeus on her son's behalf, but I'd have been delighted at the opportunity to show off my work after I'd translated the passage nonetheless.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well, skillery, I realise you are being typically tricky about this but let me try an explain a little.
There are, as far as I know, two ways of taking this; literally and allegorically. Literally is something I cannot explain; you will have to take that up with a religious person. Allegorically, the symbol of the seperation of the waters, the creation of earth and sky and the other divisions are all representative of the ordering of the chaos of the world.
That interpretation even works in tandem with evolution; what else has earth's animals and plants etc. been but an ordering of elements?
Posted by Chaz_King (Member # 3184) on :
I know a few people who believe the literal aspect of it, and say that the reason why people lived to 800 years old before the flood was because the layer of water ABOVE the earth and sky (kinda of like added padding to the atmosphere) blocked out more of the suns harmful rays.
SO when god flooded the earth with noahs flood, he supposedly used all that extra water, then you begin to see lifespans dropping fairly fast over about 10 generations(can't remember the actual number of generations) till people are only living about 100 years.
At least this is how some people explain it.
I am not so sure about that though
[ December 20, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Chaz_King ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I've never heard that before Chaz_King, but it seems to be an interesting idea.
Posted by Chaz_King (Member # 3184) on :
well it also helps them explain the drop in life spans.... otherwise people just kept dying younger and youger.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Noemon,
We should be able to study a translation of a particular culture's creation myth without turning it into a debate about whether there was or was not a god involved, but since the culture in question ascribes the creation of the Earth to a god, it might be interesting to explore why that culture would have seen it as necessary that their god divide the waters below from the waters above. Perhaps in view of the great deluge myth, the creators of this myth thought it necessary to account for their god having some extra water on-hand.
Give god enough extra water to flood the earth and then give him the power to create light without the aid of stars, and we're talking some pretty scary bedtime stories.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Just wait till you get to the talking donkey.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
How do you get "turmoiled" from תהו ובהו ?
And "floated" from מרחפת ? And if we're being literal, רוח is not "Spirit" -- it's "breath."
And you completely skipped the beginning of pasuk daled -- וירא אלוקים את האור כי טוב -- and God saw the light, for it was good.
Interesting translation overall, although I have a number of other issues with your word choices and parsing. May I P clwhy you are translating Beraishit?
[ December 20, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I must've missed the goodness of the light...
I am doing my own translation (or trying to do it), because I was aked to. I am sick of Jesiaiah's sentence... עלמה, a Maiden, became a virgin.
I offered my teacher that our school will create their own "peirush", explanation on the Bible, he suggestd a translation. So here it is...
Jonny
[ December 21, 2004, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Sounds like most of the translations you've seen have been Christian translations. I think you might find Jewish translations less objectionable -- Artscroll, for instance, certainly knows the difference between עלמה and בתולה.
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