We're getting 2 kitties this weekend that will be outdoor pets. We figured they'd help keep mice away and they also don't currently live in the best conditions. (They live in a garage with their mother and have very little human contact).
Here's what I'm trying to decide. Should I spay and neuter them? I'm of 2 minds about this. On one hand, we could be spending money on 2 cats who will run off and disappear somewhere - everyone around here has at least 3 acres, so that's a possibility. I've always spayed or neutered our indoor pets, so it feels *wrong* not to do it. On the other hand, we really don't care if we end up with litters and litters of kittens. Cats are cheap to feed, and we plan to give the rabies shots ourselves.
Mr. Opera had outdoor cats growing up, and he said that usually the population takes care of itself. Some cats disappear, some get taken by animals, etc.
So what do I do?
space opera
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
The population will take care of it's self, but your kids may become attached to one of the more unfortunate cats, thats my only concern with not getting the cats fixed....
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Fix them. Seriously. It's the responsible thing to do. If they bought the kittens to you, that would be not so bad, but if it's a male cat impregnating females everywhere and then... Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Geez, I'd say it's better to spay and neuter than to knowingly create litters of kittens that are expected to be eaten by wild animals. And if you don't alter all of the surviving offspring, you could very quickly end up with a huge feral cat population on your land. Which is bad for plenty of reasons. And, while the male cat might get some enjoyment out of being intact, I'm pretty sure that intact female cats have a pretty rough time of it, and often don't survive the experience. Not to mention altering your pets can significantly reduce the risk of reproductive cancers.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Fix & neuter, even if solely outdoor cats.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Zeugma, the really sad thing is that these 2 kitties *are* practically feral. As I said, their current living situation is staying in a garage with their mother. They have almost no contact with the people who own them. The lady told me the other week that they had them inside for a few minutes, and that when her husband tried to pick one up it started hissing and pooped all over the place. I told her that it was most assuredly because the cats haven't been socialized at all. The way they currently live is a huge part of why we're taking them.
space opera
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Well, fixing them will certainly make them a lot more approchable by humans as they get older. Spayed females roam less, and neutered males... well, there's plenty of benefits to a neutered male pet.
I definitely think it would be inhumane to let these cats roam free without altering them. The female would be having a litter about once a year, and the male would be siring countless more (and roaming further to do so). So you're talking dozens and dozens of innocent little furballs every year that are expected to be killed and eaten by local predators. Like a little kitty butcher shop. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
It is really not fair to call a common farm practice an inhumane kitty butcher shop. The cats would be around to serve a purpose (destroy small rodents) and the more cats you have, the less rodents you have.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Please, for the love of all that is holy, spay and neuter the cats. Not only will you be saving unborn generations of cats from miserable lives and deaths, you will be doing a good thing for the environment. Feral cats can wreak havoc on bird populations.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Yes. Feral cats have a miserable, miserable life...
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Natural= Miserable?
I hate to be mean, but odds are, the cats would be more then content and most people who live in town baby their pets way too much.
I mean I can see why you wouldn't want a couple dozen cats running around if they were pets, but it sounds to me like these cats aren't pets, they are rodent control, which means they are working class livestock, would you encourage some one to get a draft horse fixed?
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
JT, I don't really think you have any idea what you're talking about. Having some cats around the property to take care of rodents is fine. Planning to have two intact cats produce thousands of feral offspring, intending for most of the newborn kittens to be eaten, is inhumane and often against the law. Cats are a domesticated species, they aren't meant to be wild animals, both for their own sake and for the safety of the actual wild animal population. The thought of deliberately creating a feral cat population is enough to make me want to camp out and protest or something.
I really respect your presence here, Space Opera, and I know you'll do the right thing. I am, however, a little shocked by the idea.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Zuegma, start camping... We have "feral" cats around our farm. They have been here for as long as i have been, at any given point in time we have between 6 and 20 cats running around. We feed them, and they supplement with any small creature that they can catch. Obviously this has had an immense impact of the wild birds that come to my mothers bird feeder year round.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
JT, part of your problem is that you're lacking in a grasp of basic math skills.
quote:Feral and homeless cats are a huge part of the growing pet over-population problem everywhere. The number of feral cats in the U.S. has been estimated at 60 million. Ferals are the wild offspring of domestic cats, and ALWAYS the result of pet owners who fail to spay or neuter their animals. The HSUS estimates that a pair of breeding cats and their offspring can exponentially produce over 400,000 cats in 7 years.
Many people think pets can regain their so-called "natural" instincts and hunt to survive if they are abandoned or lost. The truth is - they can't. Their lives are a grim struggle to survive in back alleys or in rural areas on whatever scraps of food they can beg or steal. Unless they are cared for by a feeder, most die young from disease, starvation, abuse, and accidents - or die violently as food for a predator. The ones that are lucky enough to end up in shelters are usually put to death. Shelters are forced to kill millions of homeless cats each year at a hefty tax bill for citizens, and at an untold emotional burden to shelter workers.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
So you live in Indiana, JT? Guess what.
quote:Title: (Criminal Law & Procedure (Miscellaneous Offenses) 35-46-3-7 Abandonment or neglect of vertebrate animals
Year: 1987
Summary: Prohibits recklessly, knowingly or intentionally abandoning or neglecting a vertebrate animal in one's custody.
Penalty: Class B Misdemeanor (35-50-3-3) maximum 180 days confinement; maximum $1,000 fine. Any law enforcement officer or other person with authority to impound animals who has probable cause can take custody of the animal involved.
quote:IC 35-46-3-7 A person having a vertebrate animal in the persons custody who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally abandons or neglects the animal commits cruelty to an animal, a class B misdemeanor. What this law means is a person cannot hurt or injure an animal by beating, kicking, or any other means of causing pain or suffering to the animal. Additionally, a person cannot neglect the animal, such as not treating injuries, allowing an animal to suffer from lack of medical treatment, not feeding and watering, or not providing proper shelter. This also means a person cannot abandon any animal, i.e. taking an animal to a rural area and turning it loose, moving and leaving any animal behind, or leaving the animal at a veterinarian and not going back to pick it up.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Zuegma:
1.
quote: The HSUS estimates that a pair of breeding cats and their offspring can exponentially produce over 400,000 cats in 7 years.
This estimate is probably assuming that the cat has lets say 6 kittens per litter, has one litter after another with no down time, and that all the kittens survive.
2.
quote: Many people think pets can regain their so-called "natural" instincts and hunt to survive if they are abandoned or lost. The truth is - they can't. Their lives are a grim struggle to survive in back alleys or in rural areas on whatever scraps of food they can beg or steal.
These cats are not being dumped in an ally, they are not begging or stealing, they are being fed.
3.
quote: Unless they are cared for by a feeder, most die young from disease, starvation, abuse, and accidents - or die violently as food for a predator.
These cats will have someone feeding them (a caregiver). Space Opera is planning on getting the cats in question their shots. I honestly doubt they will be abused, unless you definition of abuse is lack of a store bought scratching post. Accidents are part of Farm/Rural life, it will happen whether they are fixed or not. And as far as being a meal for some wild animal, the cat would have to already be sick, or injured to be easy prey for most north american predators.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
This is making me feel ill. I'm bowing out. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: What this law means is a person cannot hurt or injure an animal by beating, kicking, or any other means of causing pain or suffering to the animal. Additionally, a person cannot neglect the animal, such as not treating injuries, allowing an animal to suffer from lack of medical treatment, not feeding and watering, or not providing proper shelter. This also means a person cannot abandon any animal, i.e. taking an animal to a rural area and turning it loose,
Having cats run around on your farm is not abandonment, and as to treating injuries, I would, and have taken injured cats in to the vet, and if the animal is beyond help, bullets are cheap. we've already established the animals are fed and water is plentiful on farm. Proper shelter, I.E. a barn is also common, however, a hole into the foundation of your house would be considered proper shelter be any rural law enforcement agency.
and Don't go on that whole, "It's inhumane to shoot an animal regardless of it's situation." point of view, because farmers all over the world do it and do it legally.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Space Opera, I'm sure you will do what ever you feel right about doing, but don't let people tell you that what your doing is wrong, either way.
Zuegma, I'm sorry to have made you feel ill, but I'm willing to bet, you've never had the farm expeirence, and I invite you to have it around here anyday.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
I have had a farm experience, JT, and you're making me ill, too. It's your responsiblity to provide a reasonably long life for any animal in your care, and any offspring they happen to have through your negligence. I have two cats in my barn at the moment, one spayed because she's catachable, and one not, becasue she's not. If it ever got to the point where we COULD catch her, we'd take her to the vet and get her spayed.
Let me give you an exagerated example. Horses are my species, though you would do the same thing with cattle or sheep.
I have five broodmares and one stud on a small farm. I turn the stud out to breed the mares, and each mare has a foal the next year. Say I get lucky, and get two males and three females. This happens for the next few years, and I don't separate the herd, or geld any of the colts. Soon ALL of my horses are starving, and fighting.
THe same thing is happening with your barn cats. EVEN if you feed them. the dominat ones will get the food, and the other ones have to scrounge.
Edit: leaving out letters.
Ni!
[ December 29, 2004, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: kwsni ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Let's take another look at this situation.
Let's assume for a moment that the two cats either aren't enough to control the rodent population or one or the other disappear or die or they otherwise just want to get more cats.
There are still enough homeless cats around that Space Opera and Mr. Opera can get more without a lot of difficulty. Check out the newspapers, the local pount, the SPCA. There are always more cats that someone is giving away.
This supports spaying and neutering.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
kwsni, providing a reasonable long life for the cats is an important part. After rereading my previous post I can see how you would feel ill, but the purpose of the cats is to keep the rampart rodent population out of the feed. The cats are fed in several different locations and spread out over 140 acres. Most of our cats die from unavoidable accidents. Barnyard cats, in general have short life spans, it's not that they aren't cared for (I give them all, even the hard to catch ones, their shots). But due to the nature of occupation (rodent search and destroy) they usually don't live too long. They die off at nearly the same rate as they repopulate. my point to Zuegma is that allowing for this to happen is not always wrong. Yes if I lived in the suburbs, it'd be wrong, and inexcusable. but in the middle of no where, it is the most practical thing to do.
Quid, you wouldn't want to go to the shelter and get a cat for the purpose of rodent control. They are too tame and will only hunt for pleasure, not out of instinct.
And if you get a cat fixed, they will loose some of their feralness and not hunt as much.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Cats are domestic animals, not wild. Spay and neuter your cats. Give them shelter from the cold and provide plenty of food and clean fresh water for them daily. It's the only humane thing to do. Humans have a moral and legal responsiblity to care for their domestic animals.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
*opens door and lets domestic pigs, horses, barn cats, chickens, goats, and ostriches in*
There, happy?
I hate to break peoples hearts, but most of the meats you eat, lived much worse lives than animals on a small farm like mine. If you want to talk about inhumane lets talk about the Industrial chicken farms, where they cut the beaks off the birds so they can put them in tiny cages and not worry about them fighting with each other.
oh, and lets get something strait, I'm talking about barnyard cats, you should always get you pets fixed.
[ December 29, 2004, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Um, anyway, I'm glad you're taking in the kittens, Spacey. Good luck with them. You should take pictures once theyre comfortable with you, to share with us Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:What's the most responsible decision as a pet owner?
...to become a non-pet owner.
Hip replacement surgery for pets, training woofie to doodle in a Tupperware, wiping woofie's bottom, cleaning the litterbox, paying to have the critter's genitalia modified, driving around with woofie on your lap...
Stop playing with your food, and eat!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
JT, thanks for the education and the other perspective. There's a lot I don't know about non-companion animals. Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
i would recommend not ignoring JT's observations and making a judgement based on his experience and the other perspectives being offered. i doubt many (if any) on the forum know what type of environment you are going to be placing these cats in. it's true that many cats from a shelter will not / cannot hunt mice. it's also true that spay/neutering can curb those behaviors you wish to encourage.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I tend to agree with gnmmmshing. Man, that's a hard name to pronounce!
I think the vast majority of us are coming from the perspective of companion animal experiences, and we really just don't have a clue. I count myself into that crowd.
It sounds, though, that JT does know what he's talking about.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Feral cats often carry FIV (Feline Immunosupressive Virus), which they pass on to other cats they come in contact with. FIV is fatal for cats (it doesn't affect people though).
Several years ago my cat caught FIV, and I had to make the choice of keeping him indoors for life in permanent quarantine, or putting him to sleep. My cat was miserable indoors in my teensy quarters (he was used to being an outside cat), and so I had to put him to sleep to protect the other neighborhood cats from getting FIV. It was an awful decision. Please don't let your cats become feral and create this kind of situation for others.
(Note: it wasn't available for my cat back then, but a FIV vaccine for cats is starting to become available, though it's still controversial.)
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yeah my cousins live on a farm out in Pennsylvania too. They don't spay and neuter their dogs. So after a litter of puppies my uncle takes them out and shoots all but maybe one. I know that it is "What they do" but it is still a huge waste of life. I don't understand how these people can be so rabidly pro-life when it comes to humans.
Kittens have it even worse than the puppies. At least the puppies are killed relatively humanely. Kittens are even more likely to become prey animals because they are more independent from the mother with fewer survival skills.
I understand that raising animals is a fact of life, however my uncle treats the pigs on the pig farm he superintends better than his "pets". The pigs get air conditioning, and they do make sure the as many of the piglets as possible grow to adulthood. Injured piglets do get killed, but at least more humanely than the kittens.
Space Opera I'd say spay and neuter them. If it physically isn't possible to catch them it is one thing. If we were back in the 1800s and had a more severe rodent problem and the grain was your livelihood, then no. But we don't live back then either.
The lack of raging hormones may also help make them more family oriented, and even if they are peeing outside the male's pee won't smell as bad. (Have you ever smelled fresh cat pee outside?) Not to mention that your dog may develop a fondess for rolling in it, and if you can do *anything* to minimize the stench it is up to you.
If you live far enough out in the country people will abandon pets out by you anyway, and you'll end up with lots of cats after a while without even trying. So when you can prevent population growth you might as well.
AJ
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Another argument against not spaying and neutering the animals: I know a lot of farmers who DO kill feral cats that come on their land -- there's too many of them, they're a nuisance, and they can't afford to take care of them.
If you help to increase the feral cat population, you're adding to the likelihood that farmers who don't have the money and patience to deal with them are going to kill them.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Shoots them all? That is so horrible!
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
and whatever you decide... keep it a secret from hatrack. if you decide it is best to spay/neuter the cats, we don't need to know. and if you decide not to, you'll likely get an earful for it. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Space Opera, look into free spay/neuter clinics in your area. I recently found one to take my kitten to, since I'm a bit poor at the moment. Ask a vet or look for signs on public bulletin boards.
I also wanted to remark on the cultural differences, even within the United States, regarding the role of domestic cats and dogs. My family lives in an agricultural area and outdoor pets are usually the norm. Families that I know often have several cats and dogs and provide them food and water and usually have them spayed and neutered. It's not customary to spend a lot of money or medical attention on ailing animals and those that are not family pets are usually put down. I recently housesat for a woman here in town that has two incredibly pampered, incredibly well cared-for cats. I mentioned something about having outside cats growing up and she was a bit upset and defensive.
I hope that we can realize that cultural differences come into play here. Rural families are not heartless for making their animals sleep outside, and urban pet owners are not crazy kooks for giving their pets prescription medications (though this was something I hadn't encountered much before). Both groups of people are behaving within pre-defined cultural standards and I think a certain amount of leeway, while still allowing for protection against abuse and neglect, is called for. Let's not be making one another ill over differences in understanding.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
FWIW, I grew up in the fields of my grandfather's farm. Cats were work animals, not pets -- but they were fed and spayed/neutered. No other vet visits, but leaving them fertile was beyond the pale for the mores of this small German farming community.
I remember my grandfather making this disgusting slop for them, and I was horrified. *grin He would stew together crunchy dog kibble, milk, and table scraps of fat until it all mushed together. They ate it, but they never looked particularly enthusiastic about it.
When I would go to his house, I'd sneak a pouch or two of Tender Vittles from our cat's stash. Even the most feral ones adored me.
[ December 30, 2004, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
We had farm cats too-- unneutered, unspayed. Of course, they weren't feral; they had lots of human interaction, and we always set out food (CAT food, mind you) for them.
If you don't want kittens, spay and neauter them. If you want a continuous re-population of cats, don't.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Scott, it was absolutely horrible. Big round crunchy chunks floating in scalded milk, with little random bits of table scraps being stirred in (pork fat, leftover stuffing, whatever). Sometimes a raw egg. It smelled so bad. I lost a lot of weight when I stayed at my Grandpa's.
[ December 30, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Blech.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It's pretty clear that 'cultural differences' trump all the good, sound reasons people have given for spaying and neutering cats. If only people were, like, able to change and be adaptable to new information.
*goes off to find some stump water to cure what ails him*
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Living on a farm, and owning many "feral" cats (or what we affectionately like to term "barn cats") -- I would say, please spay/neuter.
Understand -- most of mine are NOT spayed & neutered, so I'm coming from the other end of the telescope -- I have seen the result.
We began spaying & neutering when we had one or two cats. And all was well. However, we have a neighbor (about 1 mile away) who has about 40 feral cats, and of course, those cats eventually found that our place had a lot less competition for food, etc. and began coming here. But too wild to catch to fix. So they began having kittens, and kittens, and kittens! Oh My! And tom cats would arrive for out of thin air -- ones we had never seen before (and we have very few neighbors) to service the females.
It gets totally out of hand. We probably have over 30 cats roaming our land at this time. We have NO mice, I agree -- but it is just embarrasing to have anyone come to our place and see all these cats! (My mom and my daughter won't let me have any of them destroyed). They do thin down every year as the inbreeding causes problems, and then the distemper/feline leukemia takes out a good chunk (because I'm not going to pay for vaccinations for cats I can't even catch or afford to get fixed). And a few get killed by skunks, and possums and coyotes at an early age. (Yes, skunks will kill kittens)
Please - think of your neighbors.
I know that spaying is expensive -- they sometimes want over $100 for it here - but far less expensive than the alternative..
Farmgirl
[ December 30, 2004, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
That's a good point, FG-- our little farm was the only one around that was operating. All of our neighbor's cats were pets.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Is there any way to gauge how spaying/neutering will affect a cat's ability or desire to hunt mice? We have one cat who's fixed, but loves to hunt lizards when we let him outside. Of course, he's also the one that was sexually assaulted by our pet rabbit, so maybe he's limited to very, very small critters.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Don't know how to gauge that -- but our one housecat, who has been spayed for many many years, still frequently catches mice. She LOVES hunting them.
I often have found females are much better mousers than males, btw...
FG
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
If you live on a farm and wish to maintain a cadre of vigilant mousers why not keep one breeding pair and spay/neuter the others? Surely this is possible just as it's possible to regulate the size of your swine and cattle herds.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Stormy, please re-read my post. I didn't say that cultural differences mean you shouldn't fix your cats. (in fact, I suggested finding a free spay/neuter clinic) I said that cultural differences mean we shouldn't get all mean and condescending to one another over this.
But if you want to get all mean and condescending, by all means, feel free.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote:If you live on a farm and wish to maintain a cadre of vigilant mousers why not keep one breeding pair and spay/neuter the others?
You can't, Darren. Because this assumes that if you have "one breeding pair" that THAT pair will be the only ones that breed. The truth is, cats will travel miles to breed with others. If you have a cat in heat, you will suddenly have many MORE males show up than the one YOU own. And vice versa - your male will service every other female within several miles if they are outdoor cats.
You have very little control over outside animals, especially cats.
Farmgirl
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Farmgirl, can't you keep one or two breeding females? It probably doesn't matter where the tom comes from that impregnates them and you can fix the litter when they're born. It seems like the real problem would be if you had a tom yourself that was going around sowing his oats all over town.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Well then you maintain only a single breeding female. I understand that it would be impossible to regulate the number of stray tom's that show up to woo her but you will still have control of the number of offspring.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Well, given that scenario, I guess you could. If you remained diligent and on top of things... (pun not intended)
FG
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
No, I know what you were saying, Annie.
On the other hand, I happen to live in a rural area that *doesn't* have farms, yet the local salt of the earth still hasn't caught up to the concept of keeping their animals in the yard or spaying and neutering them.
So, I'm glad you're advocating spaying and neutering, and everyone trying to see things from the other person's point of view. It just sounded kind of like you were also implying that cultural differences meant that people from other 'cultures' couldn't have a point of view on those other cultures. Or something.
Sorry I was mean, but this is a really sore point for me.
p.s. I saw the same,if not more, from the idiot college students in Gainesville, who would abandon their animals at the end of their college lives when they moved. So, don't think I'm saying that only rednecks do this.
[ December 30, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
On our farm in Iowa the cat population fluctuated from three to thirty, three times. Feline illness, an attempt to tame a coyote and an outside tom cat all resulted in notable losses. Such is the life of cats. However we never spayed or declawed cats. I think my dad felt that they were equals, and would not disarm or otherwise remove their rights as free people.
BC
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
and Darren -- it is MUCH too nice of a day here in Kansas for you to be inside talking on Hatrack -- at least without also being on AIM...
FG
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: However we never spayed or declawed cats
Never, ever de-claw an outside cat. That makes them defenseless....
FG
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote: I think my dad felt that they were equals, and would not disarm or otherwise remove their rights as free people.
It's an approach that makes sense to me only if one is willing to be consistent -- e.g., with other medical care, which can be quite expensive. Otherwise, it feels to me (IMO, and not to dis your Dad, just speaking generally) like a convenient rationalization, or possibly just a not-very-well-thought-out line of reasoning. Treating someone else like an equal entails a substantial commitment, when you think about it.
But it is attractive in a free spirit kinda way.
[ December 30, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: It's an approach that makes sense to me only if one is willing to be consistent -- e.g., with other medical care, which can be quite expensive.
If they want medical care, they can go out and get a job like all the other free people.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
In the stated example they have a job. Rodent control. What they need is to form a union and negotiate a better benefits package. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
My tomcat would occasionally bring in dead mice and birds as rent payments. He would sit with them outside the door and meow hopefully. If you let him in, he'd deposit them on the kitchen floor with a smug look.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
"This is my cat, Samuel Gompers. Mind the picket line."
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
That's not rent, that's a gift of purest love. Well, if they were ALIVE it would be purest love. But even dead ones denote a powerful affection. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I love cats.
Tatiana Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:"This is my cat, Samuel Gompers. Mind the picket line."
I love that. I may have to name my next cat Samuel Gompers.
Back in the pre-Photoshop days I put together (the old fashioned way, with scissors, gluestick, and a photocopier) some fairly compelling evidence that Samuel Gompers was, in fact, a brownie. He had the hat from the 1st Edition AD&D Monster Manual's brownie and everything!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I love cats.
Me too. Last night the cat who adopted me as her person was sitting on my lap purring quietly as I was reading this thread.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I like cats too, they're cool.
This reminds of what happened at a fire station where my husband used to work. ONe of the firemen raised chickens and brought some eggs of some kind of fighting chicken and it hatched. So, the chickens lived at the fire station, it was funny, they even had a newspaper story about it and people would come and want to visit the wild chickens that lived behind the fire station.
Well, that station was next to the police departments' stable, and the chickens began terrorizing the police barn cats. So we had fire department chickens chasing the police cats.
Sadly, the chickens didn't survive more than a couple years, they were picked off by falcons and had trouble surviving the winters. The cats are still there, though. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Me too. Last night the cat who adopted me as her person was sitting on my lap purring quietly as I was reading this thread.
My cat is doing the same right now. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
My boys and I have special cuddle time every morning. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
<purr>
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Holy crap. I have to post this before I'm even done reading the thread, because I'm extremely offended that some people think I'm going to be running a "kitty butcher shop."
We would not be having litters just because we like to see kittens get eaten by wild animals. To suggest so is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
I asked a simple question. I know Hatrack can be crazy sometimes, but I didn't expect to practically get accused of abusing animals because I choose to have outside pets.
space opera
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'd pick entirely different reasons to abuse you. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I took it in the spirit intended. My first answer was short because I'm posting from work, not because of any indignation.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I wasn't accusing you, either, SO.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Nah, I know you guys weren't. It was Zeugma's "butcher shop" comment that made my jaw actually drop, is all.
space opera
edit: I should probably add that this morning before I came to the forum I told hubby we should go ahead and make the vet appts. to alter both cats. I truly do hope that no one thinks that I was going to deliberately create a "feral" cat population. As a matter of fact, Mr. Opera spent last night building an insulated cat house for them. It's a A-frame that matches our own house.
[ December 30, 2004, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Space Opera, I'm really sorry that I've offended you, because I really respect and like you as a person. However, I have to admit that this line from your original post really upset me:
quote:Mr. Opera had outdoor cats growing up, and he said that usually the population takes care of itself. Some cats disappear, some get taken by animals, etc.
And the line about not caring how many litters they had... I'll admit that my comment was pretty hyperbolic, but this to me is exactly what it means to create a feral cat population.
But yes, I'm sorry to have offended you. I've been called a monster by defenders of animals here, myself, and I know it hurts.
I still, however, think that leaving them intact and loose in the yard is inhumane.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: I asked a simple question. I know Hatrack can be crazy sometimes, but I didn't expect to practically get accused of abusing animals because I choose to have outside pets.
Welcome to the wildest place on earth, the animal kingdom....
I'd like to apologize for some of my responses to you Zeugma, I was tired and felt attacked, I'm sorry to have implied that you baby your pets too much. Annie hit the nail right on the head on why we disagree so strongly on this matter.
JT Stryker
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
This is why I love this site. People can get into heated debates, and then at the end, they can apologize for any misunderstandings or offenses taken and move on with their friendships.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
It's okay, Zeugma. I think you misread some of what I meant in my original post. When I said we didn't care how many litters we had, that meant that we love animals and would be responsible for however many we ended up with if we chose not to spay/neuter. As for the comment about Mr. Opera's childhood cat population, I was just repeating what he said - I didn't say whether I approved or disapproved. That was just how he answered my question of how one didn't end up with 150 cats. Again, all of it was put out there so that I could get some opinions.
But you can still come and camp out sometime.
space opera
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
--I--
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Pfft.
space opera, who wants desperately to think of something witty to say but can't
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Fills in for SpaceOpera: Jamie, thats what we are trying to prevent here Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
space opera
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Only in certain states.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Altered states? Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
I;m glad you're getting the critters fixed, Space Opera. You'll also have less cat fight activity as a result.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
My 6-year-old is struggling with these issues right now. She has been promised a cat this summer, and she wants very much to be a responsible pet owner. She has already taken over the feeding and cleaning litter boxes for the two cats we already have.
She's considering keeping her kitten an indoor pet, since there are farm dogs and coyotes rampant in our future neighborhood. However, she wants kittens in her life. She is conflicted about spaying and whether or not to let her kitten outside.
I've never known a small child to take pet ownership so seriously!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
But this is good, isn't it? She's aware, she's thoughtful and considerate, she's weighing the options. Sounds like you've done an awesome job teaching her about resonsibility. Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
My aunt and her family are cat lovers! At one point they had so many that they lost count. None of the cats were fixed and none had their shots (that I know of). Anyway one of the cats (they never figured out which one) infected my aunt and cousin with cat scratch fever (yes, it is a real disease, not just a Ted Nugent song). It was very painful. The site of the infection got pussy and hard and crusty. They would have to take pain killers so that everyday my uncle could take a needle and poke the crusted puss to drain it. (I did not witness any of this but my cousin did share all the ucky, painful details).
The point of this really gross post is just to be careful, definitely get the shots. And I also strongly encourage spaying/nuetering. There are enough homeless kitties in the world. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Just as a clarification: cat scratch disease is contracted from Bartonella bacteria, and it is usually spread to humans through a scratch from the claw or tooth of a kitten younger than six months old. It can be caught from an adult cat, but this is more rare.
IIRC, there are no routine cat vaccinations that protect against Bartonella. Almost half of the cats surveyed in California were carriers. However, flea shots will help protect a cat from one of the primary modes of transmission between cats.
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
One other nail in the coffin:
Feral cats can be dangerous. A big tom from a family that let their cats go feral came into my aunt's rural house once. She attempted to shoo it out with a broom, thinking it would spook. Instead, it jumped and attacked her.
It didn't have rabies, but her scratches and bites were so infected she almost had to go into the hospital.
Didn't catch Sara's last reply, but I guess this is anectdotal evidence of what she said.
[ January 01, 2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Amka ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I wonder if she accidentally got it backed into a corner or something. I've never ever known a cat to attack a human in anything but perceived self-defense. Even the meanest roughest toms I've ever known. Also any provoked cat bite is not grounds for worry about rabies (just in case you were concerned). My vet said that only if the cat came out of nowhere and attacked you with no provocation at all should you be worried about the possibility of rabies.
There used to be a tom who hung around the apartments where I once lived, and he would be all beat up and infected a lot, as toms usually are from their many battles. Once his eye was all swollen and my vet gave me some strong antibiotic pills and said I could see if I could get some of those down him when he would let me. I got bitten while putting one down his throat, but he said it's not a worry since it was provoked.
Oh but for sure always scrub thoroughly any cat bite or scratch and put antibiotic ointment on. They do have bacteria on their claws and in their mouths. I have been bitten and scratched many times over the years, usually while administering medicine, but also sometimes from playfulness, and I've never had any problems with infections.
Once I did get ringworm from one of my cats. That was icky. <laughs> The normal way that's diagnosed, though, is from a pink ring on the human's skin. It's almost symptomless in the cat itself.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Ring Worm....
*has flash back to wrestling days*
Ring worm is terrible...
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Space Opera, I'm really glad you have decided on altering your new kitties. One of my cat rules is to have spayed or neutered any cat I can catch.
In the 15 years I've lived here on our farm, we have always had 2 cats that spent most of their time indoors but could go out if they wanted to, and one or 2 barn cats. All of our cats have been voluntary residents that just wandered in from somewhere else. If any of them had ever had a litter of kittens, we would have had them spayed and neutered, too. I would never pay money to buy a cat. This just encourages people to breed them for sale, and there are plenty of other places to get cats that need homes. (Like your neighbor's garage )
Down the road about a mile is a dairy farm that has about 100 identical tabby cats. I'd hate to live any closer to him than I do. But his cats seem well fed and in good health. I'm pretty sure he feed them real cat food and vaccinates.
Another dairy farmer has about 30 cats. All he feeds them is fresh cow milk. A lot of them have abcesses, missing limbs or eyes, or are crippled. There's always smashed ones in the road or driveway.
Around our farms are groups of homes having about 5-20 acre lots. People from town dump cats all the time there. If they are not caught and spayed or neutered, the resulting herd can become quite expensive to feed. Then the catless neighbors who wish to remain catless get annoyed. They get traps from the humane society and take the cats there. If the cat is not tame or friendly, it is not adoptable.
We also have many pairs of hawks nesting here, so little animals don't last long.
So it isn't fair to the cats or the neighbors not to alter the outdoor cats.
I would also never declaw a cat. For strictly indoor cats, they have little fake fingernail caps for them now, and having a proper manicure regularly will prevent them from damaging furniture. Any cat that is allowed outdoors should have claws. I regularly clip and file round the ones on my indoor cats to prevent injury when we play rough. We keep a comforter draped over any furniture that we want to keep nice.
Rain
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I came into this thread late and didnt get a chance to respond before most of my response was already voiced. However, I will say that I am appalled by some people's opinions that it is acceptable to allow domesticated cats to roam free, population unchecked. Cats, feral or not, are NOT native wild animals. It's a disruption, however slight, to nature and the ecosystem to allow a group of feral cats to "coexist" with other wild animals on a farm. Cats do wander, and for all you know, the cats that disappear could merely have migrated and reproduced in another area, thus spreading and increasing the problem. I fully support the use of barn cats to control the population of mice and other rodents, provided these animals are vaccinated, well-fed and sheltered, and neutered. If you need a new kitten, go the the humane society and adopt a whole litter. A lot of animal rescue societies provide discounted or even free spay/neuter services for the animals, along with a (usually) minimal adoption fee. Even if these animals are mostly feral and do not have a lot of human contact, if they are there by your decision, then they are your responsibility, and part of that responsibility is to not become a part of an ever-growing unwanted cat population.
Ok, so that was longer a post than I intended. But yeah. That's my input.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
My favorite cat ever began as a feral.
We caught him at my grandmother's house. He was probably four monthes old and fierce. We had to keep him wrapped in a blanket to transport him home.
Once we got home, we kept him in the house for several weeks. It took most of that time to get him to come out from under the furniture without a struggle.
Once he had adopted us, we let him outside. One of my favorite memories is of him, as a six mos old, proudly pesenting a dead gopher to me. The gopher was only a little smaller than him and he had to crane his neck way up in the air to drag his big trophy. He never really got along with the other cats, but he was always a great hunter and one of the most loyal pets I've ever had.
Our cats weren't spayed or neutered. We lived in a very rural area that was plagued with rats, mice, blue jays and gophers.
Because most of the cats were littermates there was alot of inbreeding. Inveritably, my brothers and I got most attached to the kittens that needed the most help and had the least hope of survival. It was heartbreaking. I also remember walking out in the morning and seeing multiple cats dead in the yard from, I assume, FIV. Out of self defense, we learned to not get attached to our cats.
I wasn't of an age to make the decision about vet care with our animals when I was a child, but I have spayed/neutered every cat I've owned as an adult.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Our cats are inside/outside cats, which means we let them go in and out as they please. This keeps them trim and healthy. They don't have to suffer the worst of the weather, they use real trees as scratching posts, they often do their business outside, and they get plenty of exercise. They also have regular meals and plenty of affection.
My husband's family has always had a colony of barn cats. Sometimes they will take one or two into the house as pets. They don't treat the outside kitties, but they do shelter and feed them. If the population grows too large, they cull the kittens. It may sound harsh, but do realize that barn cats are animals that are adapted to the lives they lead. The ones that are not well-adapted die. It's the same for any animal population.
We humans have already disrupted the environment so much, selecting for the proliferation of sparrows and vultures over songbirds and eagles. Our roads and cities that ALL of us are part of see to that.
It is something to be considered, whether or not to allow a colony of cats to call your land home. However, it is no more or less important to consider how you dispose of your trash and whether or not you mow your yard. You are going to influence your environment drastically, just by being human. We are Changers. And the choices you make are up to you.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
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I know that it is "What they do" but it is still a huge waste of life. I don't understand how these people can be so rabidly pro-life when it comes to humans. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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