I don't want to offend those of us who worship Star Wars..............but the movies are just getting worse. I know the final one is to come out soon..............which is why I am saying something now. The last two didn't get very good reviews.............and overall I thought they were crap. I am just going to stick to the original trilogy. Whos with me?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Fahim and I are. For sure.
Still, I want to see the next one only because I need to complete the thought. But I know it's not going to be that good. It's a compulsion, I guess. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I have the original trilogy. A nice guy gave it to me. But, I just want to see the 3rd one out of how did he become darth vader curiousity.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I liked both I and II. I think II especially has one of the best villian taking over the world story arcs ever filmed.
There. I said it.
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I used to be curious, until I saw him strapped to a table with his arms bent up like a velociraptor.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
I am a star wars addict and I think Episode 1 and 2 are interesting to understand the trilogy 4, 5 and 6. But it's right there is a lack. I think the "broken arms team" of Solo, Chewy, and Luke against Empire is that. In the Episodes 1 and 2, Jedis are strong and unbreakable. Humours of dispute between Hann and Leia, Hann and Chewy, Chewy and C3PO... All ingredients of a good movies.
And In the 1 : Jar-Jar... No jock between the master and the rookie.
But, All the 3 episodes lead to a disaster. That why humour become less and less present and let take place to darkness.
There is no other issue... Maybe G.Lucas could try to avoid to create Jar-Jar... Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I'm not a Star Wars addict, but I think pretty much the same of episode 1 and 2 than of Matrix 2 and 3 : it wouldn't be so deceptive if it wasn't supposed to be part of a great movie. I expected better a following for a movie as the first Matrix, and better a beginning for Star Wars.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
At first, I hated these movies. Then I saw the general level of crap LucasArts was licensing these days.
I've mentally relegated the new movies, the New Jedi Order series of books, and RPGA's Living Force campaign to a nearby parellel universe. None of these things are Star Wars; they're merely Star Wars-esque.
Since then, I've discovered that if I'm doing something else while II is on, there's actually a few cute lines I can enjoy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I view SW I and II like I view Matrix II and III.
I consider them fan fiction, with a bigger budget than most fan fiction, but no more validity.
[ January 04, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
I'd say the fact that I haven't bothered to download the Ep III trailer is proof that I have pretty much lost interest in most things Star Wars. Which rather sucks, because I practically worshipped that trilogy when I was younger. There's a possibility that I won't even bother seeing the movie in the theater, but I will probably give in and go. No party for it, though.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
I loved the journey through the core of Naboo in Episode I. The pod race was cool. Jar Jar was difficult to watch.
The chase scene through Corruscant and the chase scene through the droid factory in Episode II was cool. The water planet was cool. Natalie Portman was hot. The arena monsters were awesome. Anakin's whining turned my stomach.
I don't like the CGI additions to the original trilogy.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Remember, Luke was also a whiny bitch. It seems to run in the family. Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's attempt to please an excesively large group of insanely die-hard Star Wars fans. You know, the kind that machine molds to create their own Stormtrooper outfits and get married dressed as Han/Leia or Anakin/Amidala, with the best man dressed as either Chewbacca, Wicket, or R2D2. Every time I watch either episode I or II, I keep seeing little things plugged into the dialogue or story that is meant only to make these fans chuckle with reminiscence. The bad thing about that is it destroys the story for the average person. Just go to the Star Wars official forums and see how many people request certain characters to show up in the movies. I don't even know who half these characters are, and I KNOW none of them were created by Lucas himself. I would personally like to see the whole story for Eps. I-III that Lucas wrote in the first place, just to see how much the fandom has invaded the story. I personally think the dialogue for Anakin in all the new movies ("It's working, it's WORKING!!!" *vomit*) was a bit...amature. And the casting of Older Anakin leaves me wondering who was trying out for the part. Natalie Portman is really good in the movie, but goodness, someone shoot the guy who plays Anakin and put him out of his whining misery.
That said, I actually did enjoy the movies, with the exception older Anakin, who gets on my nerves. Ewan McGregor was a perfect choice for Obi-Wan, and the Yoda fight-scene left me saying, "COOL!" about fifty times (On a side not about Yoda in the newer episodes, did his dialogue seem forced to anyone else?). In honesty, I don't think I've made it all the way through Episode II since it left the theatres, since most of the coolness wore off after the first couple viewings, and the story was left bland. I expect the last episode to have the same problems, bad/predictable dialogue, Anakin with long hair (How much time passed between the last two movies, and how long does it take to grow a heavy-metal hairstyle like that? Hair extensions must be popular Long ago in a galaxy far far away.) So yeah, I'll watch the 3rd episode, mostly to get the whole story. But I'll probably only watch it once or twice and forget about it, just like the others.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: Remember, Luke was also a whiny bitch. It seems to run in the family.
Yeah, but Mark Hamill is so much better at being whiny without making me want to puke. That and he wasn't also trying to be every teenage girl's poster fantasy boy like the new guy is.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's attempt to please an excesively large group of insanely die-hard Star Wars fans. You know, the kind that machine molds to create their own Stormtrooper outfits and get married dressed as Han/Leia or Anakin/Amidala, with the best man dressed as either Chewbacca, Wicket, or R2D2."
You obviously do not know any such fans, or you would not make this statement. At best, Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's failed attempt to please those fans in a way he thought might appeal.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:get married dressed as Han/Leia or Anakin/Amidala, with the best man dressed as either Chewbacca, Wicket, or R2D2."
*hangs head*
You figured out our ceremony.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
The lowest of low points in the prequells was Amadala confessing her "love" to Anakin.
I can't think of any moment in all of cinema that sunk lower than that.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
He's dressing up as R2-D2?
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
quote:Remember, Luke was also a whiny bitch.
So very true. But he had a boyish charm that very much appealed to my childhood self. I had SUCH a huge crush on him. I still like him now, but I'm not so blinded to the whinyness.
quote: I would personally like to see the whole story for Eps. I-III that Lucas wrote in the first place, just to see how much the fandom has invaded the story.
Read the drafts of the original trilogy. There are many, many hints to things that ended up in the prequels in them. They're also a fascinating read in the transition from original concept to final product.
quote:At best, Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's failed attempt to please those fans in a way he thought might appeal.
Agreed, Tom. I don't think Lucas really knows what he is doing anymore. He's too fascinated by technology and effects, and overlooking things like story. I used to think he was brilliant when I was younger, but the older I get and the more I learn about the history of Star Wars, the more I wonder if he just wasn't surrounded by the right people at the time. Both Empire and ROTJ had large portions of the dialogue rewritten by others, and I feel Empire greatly benefitted from the direction of Kershner.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Amidala has pretty dresses. That's the appeal of the prequels for me in a nutshell
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'm in love with Hayden Christiansen.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I think a number of things are involved in the two trilogies and their differing styles (in addition to those mentioned):
The age of the fans and who GL wrote for. How old were we when the original trilogy came out? I was 3 when SW:ANH came out and 6 when I saw Empire. To me, it was a revelation and I literally became obsessed with the SW universe to the point that I would watch anything that had anything to do with SW in anyway.
I was 25 When Phantom Menace came out. And while I didn't think it was the end of the world (I still think that, for an intendedly campy universe, the manipulation of Palpatine of the whole Naboo affair to get himself elected Chancellor is pretty well done) I much more able to see the flaws (many of which were in the first but have been hallowed by age and emotional memory).
And I was disappointed at the CRAP the GL had put in to cater to children (except that I had been a child who loved SW and it missed some of those things). The stupid Gungans, as a society (who puts a bumbling fool who was banished because he was clumsy in charge of the army? Accidental involvement in a treaty does not make one fit for command) and as individuals (the way Jar-Jar destroys droid after droid accidently). The dialog ("I'm a person, and my name is Anakin!" "I'm sorry. I'm new here and this is a strange place to me."- I cringe), the accidental destruction of the Droid ships through random piloting ("Let's try spinning. That's a good trick!"), the FARTING beasts of burden (I picture GL with his CG team looking at their dailies of the beast farting saying, "I want to see more effort there," or with the sound crew, "It needs to be wetter!" and hang my head in shame at how low he has sunk.)
What was he thinking? We are not four year olds. We are grown up fans who don't remember any of that crap in the originals when we were kids. What was funny in the originals? "You know, sometimes I even impress myself!" "That doesn't sound too hard." "Either I'm going to kill her or am starting to like her!" "Chewie, take the professor in the back!" "Will someone get this walking carpet out of my way!" "Hey, it's me!"
But it wasn't just funny. It meant something. It wasn't demeaning or embarressing. It was mythic. GL wasn't pandering. He was giving his vision, his intended myth.
But with the prequels (and really, I am talking about TPM and a few snippets of AotC) he had been a 'god' for years, nearly 2 decades. His touch was golden, he thought. His fans had grown up on his vision and loved him. He could do no wrong. Plus, they were snapping up his sanctioned EU books. They were hungry and if it came from the master they would be satisfied. Besides, the story would be so cool. The fall of Anakin Skywalker (which still works when stripped of the stupid elements that marr it). Now, he did have to pull in a whole new generation of kids. So he went back to the well- and it was spare- the dialog weak (as in the original). So he filled out the story with Buster Keaton and child heroes.
And who would tell the master, tell the man who had stood up to hollywood and done things his way, told the stories he wanted to tell, made some of the highest grossing films of all time, had turned the thematically dark tide of SF and inspired a generation of filmmakers with his vision- who would tell him, "Uh, George? I don't think Jar-Jar belongs in the SW universe (or any universe, for that matter). Maybe we should make this more adult." And why would he listen to them? He was George Lucas!
Well, hubris and all that, right? So he brought in help for AotC and it did work, for me at least, for the most part. Yeah, the SF was pathetic (midichlorians, clones, etc). But then again, so was the SF in the original. It's not actually SF, but fantansy, anyway. But the heart of the tale, Anakin going bad, worked well for me (and anyone who says he can't act is wrong. "Life of a House"? Hello?) Indeed, I thought it made the original trilogy better, not through comparison (wow, this makes the origianl trilogy even better, this one is so bad!), but because when I looked at Vader and listened to his defeatist too-late-for-me conversations with Luke, I saw the pain and could imagine the way he might look back in resignation and fatalistic acceptance of his final position and the casual violence he had perpetrated. It made Vader a deeper person for me and one I could pity even as I wanted his defeat.
I will see the last one. This one is supposed to be dark and so the need to make it humerous (much more subdued in AotC than PM- so he was listening) is not there. I think that this will be a good movie. I hope so. The darkness will help. It's supposed to be sad. There is no hope, really. It is the blackest moment and I believe it will be done well.
(edit: glaring spelling)
[ January 04, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
And what's with Lucas' obsession with CG? I noticed in the trailer for E3 that even Anakin's robe was computer animated. What, he can't even let a piece of normal clothing be left alone? Maybe Lucas should just let Pixar help him with his films, so at least we know in advance that the only real footage in the films will be the people (at that only applies to some of the people).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I don't have anything to back this up, but I also have a hunch that he has populated Skywalker ranch with people who will never tell him he is wrong.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I'm in love with Hayden Christiansen.
*pukes*
[ January 04, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Just something to keep in mind, the original star wars trilogy was hugely popular for not just kids, but adults, too.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
It was, because it was not insulting. The stupid elements in the prequels were.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Let me point out that Lucas was already starting to show his prequel colors in RotJ.
One word: ewoks
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
mph, are you Hobbes? Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Not nearly as bad. As 'cuddly' as they were, they were noble. And keep this in mind. In the last original editions he gave an interview and stated that Endor was originally supposed to have Wookies. But he wan't sure he'd get to them, so he put them in the first movie. After establishing a technological Chewie he couldn't make the residents of Endor be primitive Wookies. So he cut them in half and called them Ewoks. And as I said, while "cuddly" they weren't stupid. They were primitives but noble, heroic, self-sacrificing, and they were crucial. The Emperor fell, in the end, because he disdained the power of friendship and those he thought were unimportant. That's what led to the destruction of the shield.
And while GL gave in to kiddie-marketing, like SW cereal, SW cartoons, there was still heart. The Ewok moview and Ewok and Droid cartoons (I watched them recently with my son) and thought that, for what they were, they were rather well done. Yeah, they were for kids. But there was darkness to them (especially the movies) and an amount of depth to them. Yeah, they're kids movies. They were intended to be. SW was not. It was to appeal to all ages, and that is where GL lost focus.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: I can't think of any moment in all of cinema that sunk lower than that.
I can.
The end of Four Weddings and a Funeral:
Hugh Grant: "It's raining." Andy Mcdowell: "I hadn't noticed."
Posted by Insanity Plea (Member # 2053) on :
My friend made a very astute observation on EpI & II and a prediction of III, he said that I was noteworthy in how horrible it was, II was better, THUS III will be even better until we get to IV, which was movie magic at it's best...there's a reason its called "A New Hope."
And for anyone else, the only remastered ORIGINAL IV-VI (unedited) with better than VHS quality video/audio is on Laserdisc, whichI have access to and have made DVD backups of...if anyone may want the original in a form less volatile than VHS, I might be willing to share. Email me if anyone is interested. And be very glad my friend decided against making his LD backups to betamax instead. Satyagraha
[ January 04, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Insanity Plea ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: mph, are you Hobbes? [Confused]
No. I was being silly. But probably tasteless.
[ January 04, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:And what's with Lucas' obsession with CG? I noticed in the trailer for E3 that even Anakin's robe was computer animated. What, he can't even let a piece of normal clothing be left alone? Maybe Lucas should just let Pixar help him with his films, so at least we know in advance that the only real footage in the films will be the people (at that only applies to some of the people).
Well, first, the trailer for E3? Then that was probably for the video game wasn't it? I haven't seen it, but was it for a transition or something? They might not have been able to get the real cape to move the way they wanted or something.
Anyway...
Besides that, I don't really understand why people are complaning so much about the CG. You think if CG was around in the 70s Lucas wouldn't have been using it as much as he has today? He was using the best in special effects back then, and he is now. If you dislike CG, complain about the whole industry, not just Star Wars.
***
The only prequel that I can understand all the hate for is TPM. I was eleven when I first saw that movie, and the first thing I said to my dad as we were leaving was, "It didn't feel like Star Wars."
AotC, however, I think was pretty good. Bad dialogue aside, I think its right up there with the best of the classic trilogy. Its certainly better than RotJ (except for RotJ's space battle; that always makes me happy).
And what's wrong with Anakin? How can you say that its okay for Luke to be whiny but Anaking not? That's just biased. And I don't see how Hayden is trying to be a poster boy anymore than Mark was in ANH.
I don't know. Some complaints I can understand. Some I think are just people who were shocked that the movies weren't just like the classic trilogy and reaching for "legitimate" things to complain about.
I just don't get it..
PS: Lucas is definetely not trying to please the hardcore fanbase. There are too many things invalidated for that to be true. EG: Obi-Wan no longer being Uncle Owen's brother (as told in the RotJ novelization), the timeline and reason for the Clone Wars (and a bunch of other stuff), Boba Fett's origin.
Lots of stuff.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You have to take the prequels with a grain of salt. First of all, the time arc is much broader, Lucas has to do more in the same amount of film as the original trilogy, and it's not easy. The time span of the first three films was only a couple years. But the time span of the prequels is more like a decade and a half. He has to stuff a lot of story and explanation into three movies, and the result is whiney fans and non fans who complain because they aren't getting a masterpiece.
Personally I liked Episode One, and I really liked Episode Two, and I'm VERY excited about Epsisode Three. One had to be done to set up two and three. I think the problem people are having with the movies is overzealous expectations. Everyone wanted a magical masterpiece and hyped it up so much that no one could possibly make a movie that would make everyone happy. Everyone needs to step back and give them a real evaluation. Anakin was whiney sure, but didn't he have reason to be? In the second movie he had massive internal debates going on, and he missed his mother, which ate away at him, also he killed a village of relatively innocent people, also adding to his guilt and hysteria, and then people call him whiney? Sorry, I call him human.
It really leads to an in general problem with people and movies these days. Everyone is too critical. No one can enjoy a movie anymore without hacking it to pieces and finding its faults.
I look forward to Episode Three. I think it could be the best of all six. The preview has me incredibly excited. Questions will be answered, the Old Republic will fall, and Darth Vader will be born. Some people are just impossible to please.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
As I said, I like TPM, especially Palpatine's machinations. And I really like AotC. The Anakin plotline was, for me, very well done and gave DV much more depth, pain and made me able to understand him.
That said, what irritated me was the stupid crap GL put in the appeal to kids. Jar-Jar, farting beasts, repeated accidental success against enemies, etc. It was so childish and juvenile, things that were NOT in the originals, despite their campy serial-like setting.
I do believe (hope, anyway) that Ep3 will miss a lot of those childish things because it's theme is so much darker. I hope and believe so.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Saying Luke is too whiny in IV, V and VI is like saying Jesus is too preachy in the New Testament.
If you go back and Watch Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back you will notice that Lucas created 2 almost flawless movies, Lucas created 2 of the greatest movies of ALL TIME.
yes. Return of the Jedi was a bit of a fumble, and I and II aren't as good, but please remember, the middle trilogy are based upon heroes, and the first trilogy is based on the Villian, there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes.
It's funny that so many people like to complain about Star Wars, considering this is the GENERATION that CANNOT create it's own heroes.
Lucas built his franchise from scratch, where as now everything is based on a friggin' TV show, or a remake, or a lame ass version of a comic book.
Well, if there is one thing America is best in the world at, it is Complaining!
While were at it, would you sons of bitches get Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and Hillary Duff out of my sight!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
What's wrong with TV shows or comic books?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
nothing. I think his point is that so many movies now are adaptations of previous work, be it comic books or tv shows or something else. Nothing is original any more.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
" but please remember, the middle trilogy are based upon heroes, and the first trilogy is based on the Villian, there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes."
This statement is utterly false.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Villans, or at least villan/heroes are much more interesting than plain heroes.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
quote: What's wrong with TV shows or comic books
Catwoman. Daredevil. All previous Batman's. Duke's of Hazzard. Bewitched.
For every Spiderman II there are a 10 crap fests, for every one M. Knight Shalayman there are 20 writers or directors who are willing to cash a paycheck for putting out old crap.
Lucas created something entirly original, he should win mega points for that.
quote:" but please remember, the middle trilogy are based upon heroes, and the first trilogy is based on the Villian, there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes."
This statement is utterly false.
Can you prove it utterly false?
my favorite movies of all time are
Raiders of the Lost Ark (Indy/ Hero) Empire Strikes Back (Han/ Luke/ Leia/ Chewwy, R2 / hero) The Natural (ROy hobbs/ hero) Forrest Gump (hero) The Matrix (Neo/ Hero) Ghostbusters (the boys/ heros) Passion of the Christ (Jesus/ Hero)
where is your list of superior evil people movies?
quote: Villans, or at least villan/heroes are much more interesting than plain heroes.
Well, I guess that's why people Elected Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney, so they wouldn't be bored! Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes.
The Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Thrawn is the coolest Star Wars character ever thought of.
Edit to add: Michael Douglas in Falling Down is the main character and the villan. The bad guy in Se7en. If you count Ben Affleck in Chasing Amy, he wasn't so much a bad guy as a selfish jerk.
[ January 04, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: AvidReader ]
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
But the prequels have utterly failed to make me care about what happens to the characters. In the originals, when something went wrong I was on the edge of my seat wondering if they were going to get out of it, such as Luke dueling with Darth Vader at the end of Jedi and the huge battle around the partially built Death Star. I was seriously jumping up and down.
The prequels lack this entirely. When something goes wrong, I'm not interested in what happens to the people as much as I am mildly amused at the graphics and technology. For instance, the sonic mines left behind for Obi Wan or the "feeding to the animals" thing in AotC. When Quai Gon died, I shrugged and said, "Muh?"
Lucas has lost the ability to create sympathetic, interesting characters and instead has substituted action and special effects in their place, interesting concepts of technology (some were pretty neat, I won't deny it) and flashy combat scenes instead of plots and people. This works initially, but tires out quickly. Eventually he will understand that the word and concept WOW! is very short and doesn't last long and once you say it you need something interesting to happen to keep you involved.
Needless to say, I don't think he has or will learn this in time. It'll be another orgy of special effects with wooden acting, poor dialogue, and lukewarm passion.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
at the end of the day...
Will star wars III be worth 6.50?
to me, yes.
to you? your choice.
but compared to something like,
one trillion dollars, and a million lives to tame Iraq to our western ways and have it as our middle eastern base,
star wars III looks like a very fair deal
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:I can't think of any moment in all of cinema that sunk lower than that.
Oooh... I win on this one. From Wimbeldon: "But in tennis, love means nothing!"
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Thor:
quote: Lucas built his franchise from scratch, where as now everything is based on a friggin' TV show, or a remake, or a lame ass version of a comic book.
Umm, might I direct you to the works of Akira Kurosawa? Check into his films from the 1950s and 1960s. Sit back and enjoy, trust me, even with the subtitles, you'll be in familiar territory.
The Seven Samurai and Yojimbo were co-opted by Hollywood in their own right, but GL lifted characters and plots wholly from Kurosawa's work for the original Star Wars trilogy. He even readily admits it.
Back then, though, if you weren't either from Japan or a film student, chances are you'd never see Star Wars and say, hey isn't that really The Hidden Fortress or The Throne of Blood?
Are GL's movies getting worse? Nah. But Kurosawa hasn't made anything recently for George to borrow from.
[ January 04, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Yeah, it was a rip-off. I loved SW as an 8 year old.
But now... I only watch the prequels to see how many different ways they'll tie up Ewan McGregor. Or drench him with water. Or dangle him from high things.
Posted by bCurt (Member # 5476) on :
I have liked the prequels so far. I haven't loved them. Of course, I'm not that picky and don't analyze movies to death, either. The story is good but the execution (script) is not. I blame that on Lucas doing the script writing. The bonus is the great CG effects.
The very fact the movies are sequels takes some of the surprise away because you know what happens later. I think that takes some suspense and excitement away because you mostly know where the main characters end up. Who really cares about the side characters though they may provide entertainment and filler? It is hard to create suspense and excitement with them.
What about rumors of postquels (there's probably a better term)? The prequels have made enough money that Lucas may feel justified to continue making Star Wars movies though maybe on a different level of participation (actually, his reduced involvement sounds good).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Are GL's movies getting worse? Nah.
I don't see how I could disagree more.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:What about rumors of postquels (there's probably a better term)?
Like, say, "sequel?"
Anyway, if Star Wars sequels are ever made, it will be long after George Lucas is dead and the license has been handed off to someone else. Lucas has made it very clear that, at least as far as movies go, Star Wars is his baby and everyone else can go do some vulgar thing. And George Lucas has said again and again that there will be no more Star Wars movies after Episode III.
Although, there are those rumors about a post RotJ TV series with Kevin Smith at the helm and Mark Hamill doing occasional appearances as Luke...
Posted by bCurt (Member # 5476) on :
quote:Like, say, "sequel?"
I knew I was the victim of a brain fart but couldn't get past it!
I hardly ever believe anyone in the movie industry when they say they will never do this or that or that they will do this or that. I recently read of the rumor from a source that a felt could have some validity but honestly can't remember where. It was mentioned from an angle that Lucas is reconsidering sequels.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Ummm... creepy. The last two seconds of "Tragic Kingdom" by No Doubt have a little quote from the Star Wars theme song that I had never noticed until I was reading this thread and it happened to come up on iTunes Party Shuffle. I swear, the man is just screwing with my head!
I heard that a Star Wars TV series was in the works. There seemed to be some buzz that Kevin Smith was going to direct, since he's a huge Star Wars fan. I'm not holding my breath, nor am I setting any expectations, despite how awesome Kevin Smith is.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote: Email me if anyone is interested. And be very glad my friend decided against making his LD backups to betamax instead.
Well, I tried to email and the board told me I wasn't allowed.... I'd love a set of these, please! Let me know what you want me to send for them ... blank media, money, my firstborn child... Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I remember Lucas saying that he would never release Star Wars on DVD.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
quote:at the end of the day...
Will star wars III be worth 6.50?
Nah, end of the day it'll be like 9 bucks. $6.50 is before 5:00 or so.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm a pretty big Star Wars fan and I enjoy the prequels. Most of my friends (who are at best only casual Star Wars fans) like them okay as well. We're all in our early 20s if you're wondering. I grew up with the originals too, and while they are superior in a number of ways, I've always thought that the prequels have a lot going for them as well. And based on what we know has to occur in episode III (ie. birth of Vader, the duel, the fall of the jedi, the birth of the twins, Padme's fate, the rise of the empire, etc.), I can't imagine anyone who calls him/herself a Star Wars fan not looking forward to seeing that stuff, no matter how you feel about eps. I and II. Revenge of the Sith will finally show us the events which we've only imagined for decades. Love the prequels or hate them, we've come this far so let's all see it through to the end.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Lucas has only made three movies (all star wars) in the last eight years. I think as stand alone films, as its own triology, they are very good. And I think that will all be wrapped together and cemented with RotS.
And I think there will be more Star Wars stuff. Lucas has said that he doesn't want to be a part of it (probably because he didn't write any of it) but that he thinks its possible for someone else to do another trilogy (Almost certainly the Thrawn Trilogy), but he said it's also likely that a television series of some sort would also be a possibility, since there is so much to the Extended Universe. It'll be hard to get EVERYONE excited about future movies though, only hard core fans read anything about the EU.
[ January 05, 2005, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
The Thrawn Trilogy is good but I don't think that adapting it into movies would be a good idea. They're just too similar to the originals in many ways. Probably because they are the first entries in the "modern" EU, so Zahn didn't want to stray too far from what Lucus had established. I mean, the end of "The Last Command" is pretty similar to that of "Return of the Jedi" when you think about it. In any case, if sequel films were ever made they would probably just ignore and overwrite all the expanded universe stuff. Otherwise, whoever made the films would be far too restricted, and only those hardcore fans who know the EU well would have any idea what's going on: "Mara Jade? Jacen Solo? Hey... where's Chewie?! wtf!"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm not sure Lucas would let them ignore and overwrite it. Remember all the stuff in the EU is approved by Lucas and Lucasbooks/Lucasfilm before it can be published under that name.
What other EU trilogy or book could they do? If they did Shadows of the Empire they'd have to get new actors to play the principle characters, which is gonna bring about a HUGE debate. New Jedi Order would be a horrible idea, there's just too much that isn't explained for it to possibly function. I think at some point they have to say "not everyone is gonna understand this, let's just do the best we can."
And I don't think they'd let Thrawn go just because it's too similar to the original three, it has a lot of different elements in it. The Empire almost always lost any major combat in the original trilogy, but they rock in this one, plus the character of Talon Karrde (probably comparable to Han Solo) is still very compelling and just different enough from Han to make his storyline different. I'd be excited to see it, Thrawn is unlike most any villain i can think of. He doesn't really even seem to want power, he just wants to preserve the Empire for someone else.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Don't forget that Lucas himself has pretty much ignored the EU whenever he's felt like it. The whole Clone Wars is a good example. The Thrawn Trilogy said that the Republic fought against clones, and that the war occured earlier in the timeline. It also describes the production of the clones themselves differently. There's also the origins of Boba Fett, storm troopers, and the Sith, and even the rules about jedi marrying. I even heard that Lucas wasn't going to use the name "Coruscant" (which originally came from the EU)until someone told him that the 'city planet' aleady had a name! Fans and authors have come up with 'fixes' for most of these things, but the truth of the matter is that Lucas himself knows/cares very little about the EU. It's his people who read and authorize the stuff. He's only informed of the major stuff. ie. He had to personally authorize a certain event in "Vector Prime" (I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but I'm sure you know what I mean). That's why many fans consider the EU to be fan-fiction. I personally don't think of it that way, but I understand that the novels are at a slightly lower level of Star Wars canon that the films.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's a good point, I forgot about the Boba Fett screw up, which really angered me in the second movie.
But I still think that the jedi will fight against the clones. It's obvious by now that Palpatine has tricked the Republic into building a massive army with him at its head, and on the other hand he has created a rebellion faction that will fight against the republic, creating the need for the army he controls. It's very clever, but when everyone realizes that he is taking over they will fight against the clones.
I guess you're right in general about the EU and Lucas. I'm just wishfully thinking Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
The way I see it, the best case scenario is that sequel films would take place far enough in the future that the current EU wouldn't have to be directly referenced or contradicted. Say, 50 years after Return of the Jedi. They would obviously star a new generation of characters, but Luke and the gang could still be alive to play smaller parts. ie. Luke as the aged mentor this time.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That'd be weird, but I like the idea!
You still need Jacen/Jaina/Ben Skywalker and Mara though. Though if you kill Luke and Mara off from old age all together, it's not so much a problem.
It certainly has a lot of merit. That way no one argues about preconcieved notions they had. My question would be: What is the conflict? Peace is signed with the Empire, the ::coughcoughchoke:: Vong are taken care of on their weird little planet. If the New Republic reigns as long as the Old Republic, there isn't any conflict, and no story.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
A sequel trilogy would be horrible. What would it be about? The six films are all about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Since he dies in Episode VI, what would VII, VIII, or IX be about? I just can't see it working.
If there was another trilogy of movies (or even just one or two movies; they don't haveto come in threes), it would best be about something completely unrelated to the Skywalker clan. There's so much EU based in the years right before and soon after the movies, it would be best for a new movie/duology/trilogy to be far more separate. Preferably far into the future (like, centuries or millenia), since there are comics and stuff already in the past.
It would be neat. Since it would be so long after any EU stuff, GL (or whoever) wouldn't have to worry too much about spoiling any EU stuff (well, more correctly, the fans wouldn't have to worry; GL wouldn't really care). There would be near limitless freedom as to what the trilogy could do.
It could be great.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
I trusted G. Lucas wrote 3 trilogies. So, what will hapen about the last trilogy ? Many rumors claim G. Lucas doesn't make it himself but aren't against somebody realise it.
Any comment ?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I can't imagine anyone who calls him/herself a Star Wars fan not looking forward to seeing that stuff, no matter how you feel about eps. I and II."
It's not that I'm not looking forward to seeing this stuff, but that I'd rather leave it to my imagination if Lucas is just going to urinate all over it.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
There is something difficult in dealing with a rabid fanbase such as they have with Star Wars.
And that is that the guy at the helm, old GL, has seen his movies nowhere as many times as his fans have. How could he know every nuance of his work as well as his fans?
It's got to be like when William Shatner gets asked about some piece of minutiae from one of the original Star Trek episodes. As he said in a sketch on SNL about just such an incident, "Get out of your mom's basement, get a life and kiss a girl, would you?"
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I trusted G. Lucas
That was your first mistake.
I sadly, have made the same mistake. Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
fun, Monsieur Patate ! I like your joke style !
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Am I a Monsieur now? Do I need to go out and buy a special outfit?
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
your NickName Mr Porteiro head let me think to the famous toy : Monsieur Patate. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's supposed to. Posted by bCurt (Member # 5476) on :
quote:I trusted G. Lucas wrote 3 trilogies.
That is what I understand from what I read. I wonder how much he actually wrote or just sketched out.
What else is George Lucas going to do? As already mentioned he hasn't done much for some years but work on the prequels (as far as movies go). He'll be involved with the next Indiana Jones movie but what about after that? I think he will be tempted to do the sequels and if he goes for it, hopefully it will be on a more limited participation basis. Imagine what a good screenwriter and director could do with them.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I'd kinda like to see something set in the Old Republic, waaaay back when (like when the KOTOR videogame is set). That would be pretty cool.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I'd go older than KotOR. I'd go with the Ulric Qel-Droma story line. That's the one where the Sith about dominate the entire galaxy before Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider manage to turn Ulric back to the light side and bring down the Sith. It's one of the comic book series right now. Good stuff.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
"I trusted G. Lucas wrote 3 trilogies. So, what will hapen about the last trilogy ? Many rumors claim G. Lucas doesn't make it himself but aren't against somebody realise it."
As I understand it, Lucas abandoned the idea of 3 trilogies back while he was still working on the original one. In fact, much of what was supposed to be in the third trilogy went into Episode VI instead. For example, Luke would not have confronted the Emperor until the sequel trilogy if Lucas has stuck to his original plan.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"That's the one where the Sith about dominate the entire galaxy before Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider manage to turn Ulric back to the light side and bring down the Sith."
One of the things that's always bothered me about the SWU is how easy it appears to be for evil to dominate the entire galaxy; the forces of good always seem to find it a lot harder.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's bothersome, but no more so than real life.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
wow.................you guys made this about ten times more of a conflict than I ever planned........its awesome......so many conflicting views........keep it up
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: One of the things that's always bothered me about the SWU is how easy it appears to be for evil to dominate the entire galaxy; the forces of good always seem to find it a lot harder.
Huh. Never really thought about it before. I guess it's so common, I just accept the idea without question.
I'm thinking back historically now. Hitler was part of the "evil turns on itself" camp, but didn't Stalin stay in power after killing a bunch of his own? I have to admit, I can't think of the fates of more than a handful historical figures. I think I'll need to take a few history courses when I go back to school.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I don't know, Tom. THe Old Republic stands for an awful long time, is usurped by Palpatine, and then after a very short period of time he is overthrown. Meteoric rise to dominance, and then stagnation and collapse, seems to be what a lot of brutal tyrannies do.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, but none of the stories are about the wise and long-time rule of the Old Republic -- or the New, for that matter. Probably because it makes for a better story, all the tales are about the meteoric rise of evil. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:One of the things that's always bothered me about the SWU is how easy it appears to be for evil to dominate the entire galaxy; the forces of good always seem to find it a lot harder.
That's because in general it's harder for good to triumph over evil. Evil is more seductive, a constant theme in the Star Wars universe. That's what makes the scene where Vader kills the Emperor so powerful, because Vader had spent so much time in the thrall of evil that coming back to the light was that much harder. The problem that universe faces is complacency, every time they manage to conquer in the name of good, they forget that evil exists, except for the few vigilant ones, the Jedi, who are themselves seduced by evil.
The storyline with Qel-Droma would be interesting to do. It's set in the same universe, but other than there being Jedi, the Force, and the universe it bears no similiarities to the original trilogies. Nomi Sunrider was always one of my favorite characters, I'd love to see a live action version of it. But it'll be painful to see Uleq go over to the dark side.
I highly doubt Lucas will do any of it. He hasn't even been involved in directing a majority of the Star Wars films. He wrote them all, controlled the storyline, and that was his imprint. He doesn't need the money, even if he just had ILM he could live off that forever. I think he will hand it over to someone else, someone younger, and someone more in touch with the fanbase that he obviously has some trouble reaching now.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Clone wars is world war I, rise of palpatine rise of hitler and stalin, death of palpatine is death of hitler and fall of germany, collapse of soviet union is the slow fall of the empire? *Shrug* Timeline works reasonably well for me I guess Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Some people think Hitler is still alive
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
My conflicting and antagonistic viewpoint: Knights of the Old Republic is the best Star Wars movie since RotJ.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote: Knights of the Old Republic is the best Star Wars movie since RotJ.
I didn't even know they had a movie called that. Is there one?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Before I begin, let me establish a few things.
I don't bitch for the sake of bitching. I don't nitpick movies for the joy of finding mistakes in someone else's work. Nor do I think my concepts for a movie should override those of the people who actually worked on the movie. I don't care about cigarettes that jump from hand to hand in different scenes, or stagehands reflected in windows, or the minor inconsistencies that pop up in every movie.
I love the first three movies even though they had flaws and plot holes that could swallow a small moon. I can even accept the existence of Jar-Jar and other silly bits because like it or not the Star Wars movies were always intended for kids. They're Saturday afternoon matinee movies, cliffhangers, the type that used to be serialized.
And I do, in fact, like the general plot of the three prequels. It makes sense, it ties together a lot of loose ends (loose beginnings?) and it does an excellent job of explaining how the Empire was forged, and where the Rebels came from, and what happened to the Jedis.
What bothered me, what disapppointed me, was the little stuff. Stuff that added to the flair of the first three and seems completely missing from the new ones. Stuff that knocks me out of the movie because even my belief-suspended brain can't let it go.
Some of the little things that bugged me, in no particular order:
Aliens with accents like foreigners in 50's movies.
The pod race where there was never, ever, the slightest hint that Mannakin was using the Force, even subconsciously. The race was too long and there was no real sense of danger or effort on his part.
There's a lot of suffering mentioned on Naboo, but never any shown. In fact, as far as I can tell no one lives on Naboo besides the Gungans, the palace personnel, and the hordes of people brought out to cheer parades.
The introduction of C3PO and R2D2 in a location that Vader should have remembered later on. With luck the third movie will address that, and why Darth Vader didn't recognize them. Or, for that matter, the planet he was, you know, enslaved on. Were I him in "Star Wars" and I saw the droids' capsule crash land, I'd head straight to my old stomping grounds and start shooting, just to save time.
R2D2's jet packs. Boy, those would have been handy later on...
Mannakin apparently forgetting about his slave mother for 10 years. Jedis don't get paid? Couldn't he have direct-deposited some of his cash towards a freedom fund or something?
Not getting to see any of Mannakin's training, or his early wonder at his own abilities.
The apparent lack of journalism. If I heard rumors about a blockade, I'd at least send a photographer to check.
The lack of any good lines or mannerisms. Why should I like these people?
The lack of any reason to like Darth Maul. Ooh, he's got tattoos and a dark cloak. Ooh, he can spin around real good. So what? Let's see some casual cruelty, or personal quirk, or anything to convince me he's there for any reason besides providing a new action figure. The final battle scene when he's on one side of a clear wall, Qui-Gon-Jin's in the middle, and Obi-Wan is on the other end annoyed me like you wouldn't believe. What exactly was the purpose of that? (I should mention here that I felt exactly the same way about Bobba Fett, who was built up and discarded in the same useless cardboard manner.)
Jar-Jar becoming a general, and then a planetary representative. Please. Comic relief is one thing, don't insult me.
The Jedi Council deciding that Mannakin was too old and powerful to train. And the reasoning here is...? Nah, this gun's too powerful to use against our enemies, let's toss it out in the street.
The mitichlorians. The who? Where the hell did those come from?
It's not that the prequels have more plot problems than the original trilogy - they likely don't - but that the prequels don't have enough reason for me to become emotionally invested in them, and so I notice the plot holes more.
[ January 05, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Adolf Hitler's birthdate: April 20, 1889
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Why can evil dominate so quickly? Because it's easier.
What's faster, ruling over a kingdom because of your reputation for fair and honest justice? Or ruling over it because you execute everyone you don't like?
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Sara....Sara....Sara.........that doesn't prove anything. Its possible...........it wouldn't suprise me to find his tyranny once again striking the earth. Only this time he would be old and bald.......and he wouldn't have that annoying little mustache.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Because you implicitly asked for it:
quote:I love the first three movies even though they had flaws and plot holes that could swallow a small moon.
That's no moon....
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
... and 115.5 years old.
Making him the oldest human ever on verifiable record.
[ January 05, 2005, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
quote:I didn't even know they had a movie called that. Is there one?
Nope. It's one of the best liner RPGs ever made, IMO, and has some very good cinematics.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
What's a liner RPG?
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Aliens with accents like foreigners in 50's movies.
Who? Like Watto? So?
quote:The pod race where there was never, ever, the slightest hint that Mannakin was using the Force, even subconsciously. The race was too long and there was no real sense of danger or effort on his part. Apparently he used the Force to stay on course and avoid blowing up, but we never get a sense of it.
First, is there some joke I'm not getting about spelling Anakin Mannakin? Just a curious question..
And I think the point was that it was just coming to Anakin. We was able to see the immediate future just instinctively without any need to meditate. Similar to how the Jedi are using the Force to sense where the lasers are coming from, but they don't need to meditate, visibly anyway, once they've mastered it. Its a sign of Anakin's strength.
I could see how that could bother someone though.
quote:There's a lot of suffering mentioned on naboo, but never any shown. In fact, as far as I can tell no one lives on Naboo besides the Gungans, the palace personnel, and the hordes of people brought out to cheer parades.
That always bugged me too... Although, if you look at the deleted scenes from the Episode II DVD, you get to meet Padme's family and get a small sense of what a Nabooian (Nubian?) household is like.
quote:The introduction of C3PO and R2D2 in a location that he should have remembered when he crashed landed there later. With luck the third movie will address that, and why Darth Vader didn't recognize them. Or, for that matter, the planet he was enslaved on. Were I him in "Star Wars" and I saw the droids' capsule crash land, I'd head straight to my old stomping grounds and start shooting, just to save time.
Droids get their memory wiped all the time. C3PO's has most definetely. I personally think R2D2's wasn't, making the only non-Force user to known exactly what happened in all three movies.
Notice how he remembers Obi-Wan but Threepio doesn't.
And the droids hardly have distinctive looks when it comes ot the Star Wars galaxy as a whole. There are tons of protocal droids and astromech droids that would just like, or very similar, to Threepio and R2. There's no reason Vader would think that they were his droids (if he even saw them, which I don't think he did). And there was no reason for Vader to go down and search for the droids himself. I dount he really cared, anymore, that he grew up on Tatooine. He just want the Death Star plans.
quote:R2D2's jet packs. Boy, those would have been handy later on...
The warranty ran out. I'm not kidding. That's the official reason R2 never uses his jet backs in IV, V, or VI.
quote:Mannakin apparently forgetting about his slave mother for 10 years. Jedis don't get paid? Couldn't he have direct-deposited some of his cash towards a freedom fund or something?
He didn't forget, but as a Jedi, he's not supposed to have any attachments. Even if he had free time, I doubt the Council or Obi-Wan would have given him permission to see her. It would be step backwards. It wasn't until he was out from under the eyes of Obi-Wan that he could sneak to his mother (you'll notice Anakin says that protecting Padme was his first mission alone).
quote:Not getting to see any of Mannakin's training, or his early wonder at his own abilities.
That would be neat, but there's no way Lucas could have fit that into a movie without getting way off of the main plot of the rise of the Empire and such. If you're really interested, there are several books that take place during Anakin's training...
quote:The apparent lack of journalism. If I heard rumors about a blockade, I'd at least send a photographer to check.
There weren't any journalists in the Classic Trilogy, either... Unless this is just Star Wars in general...
quote:The lack of any good lines or mannerisms. Why should I like these people?
*cough*
quote:The lack of any reason to like Darth Maul. Ooh, he's got tattoos and a dark cloak. Ooh, he can spin around real good. So what? Let's see some casual cruelty, or personal quirk, or anything to convince me he's there for any reason besides providing a new action figure. The final battle scene when he's on one side of a clear wall, Qui-Gon-Jin's in the middle, and Obi-Wan is on the other end annoyed me like you wouldn't believe. What exactly was the purpose of that? (I should mention here that I felt exactly the same way about Bobba Fett, who was built up and discarded in the same useless cardboard manner.)
Sidious needed the go-getter, gopher type guy so he trained Maul to do so. Maul was taken as a child and brainwashed into hating the Jedi and loving the Sith. He's not supposed to be anything more than a guy Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon could fight.
quote:Jar-Jar becoming a general, and then a planetary representative. Please. Comic relief is one thing, don't insult me.
The general thing was stupid. It is possible to see reasoning behind him being a representative, though, if you stretch your mind (he was exposed to it in TPM than any other Gungan was before), but yeah, I mostly agree.
quote:The Jedi Council deciding that Mannakin was too old and powerful to train. And the reasoning here is...? Nah, this gun's too powerful to use against our enemies, let's toss it out in the street.
He wasn't too powerful, just too old. The Jedi believe that because of Anakin's age, the switch to Jedi training would be too much of a change for him to really adapt as well as a Padawan who has been in training since infancy. Anakin also had attachments and fears that normal Padawans normally don't have. The Jedi were afraid that Anakin would fall to the dark side, or ultimately fail his training in some way, because of these attachments and fears, and rightly so. It was why Yoda was reluctant to train Luke in ESB.
quote:The mitichlorians. The who? Where the hell did those come from?
Obi-Wan and Yoda were training Luke to be a weapon against the Empire, so they didn't really have time to explain any scientific reasonings about the Force to Luke.
As to why the midichlorians exist, I think they're supposed to pay off in RotS. :-\
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:That's the one where the Sith about dominate the entire galaxy before Cay Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider manage to turn Ulric back to the light side and bring down the Sith.
I didn't think they came close to dominating the galaxy, unless they've fleshed out the story more in the last 5 years.
They stop Ulic, he rats out Kun, and then the Jedi just vaporize him. There's never any suggestion he was stronger than the jedi together, just able to beat them when he took them by surprise or in small numbers.
But, it's been a long time. I could be wrong.
In a similar vein, the reason I bet SWG never really took off was that it was too hard to be a jedi. People play the game because they want to swing a light saber. They should have set it in the Old Republic and let the Jedi wannabes (like me ) go to town. I really think they don't get what people like about the universe.
Dagonee
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That's a re-occuring problem with all kinds of games. When magic becomes too common, it's not magic or special anymore.
Everybody wants to be the special ones.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yeah, but it works for most games. You make the players special, the population average, and the monsters in a nice range of danger. There's fun in standing up to 1000 kobalds and in fighting a single dragon.
Dagonee
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Now, having complained, the Armchair Director(TM) will solve these problems. Here's some suggestions for Phantom Menace.
Change the alien accents, or use subtitles.
Add some scenes to show us that Anakin has the Force in him. Let Qui-Gon see Anakin absent-mindedly reach for a tool that jumps into his hand without him noticing, or run his hands over a machine before going right to the section that's broken. Let him get imperiled in the pod race and then concentrate until his pod rights itself, let his eyes roll back a little while he miraculously dodges obstacles, something. Mostly, give us some visible symbol that shows he's Using the Force. Even having Anakin grab Jar-Jar's tongue in mid-air after seeing Qui-Gon do it once would be something.
Let Qui-Gon explain the Force to Anakin by showing him instead of telling him. Not only has Anakin never seen it, but it's been many years since the audience has seen new Force moves and it would have helped. Also a good spot for Anakin to get to do something to prove to himself (and us) that he's Force-ful. Dump the mitichlorians. Let Qui-Gon test Anakin with some kind of simple mental exercise, like moving a small rock. See how this works:
"Very good, Anakin. There's not many that can do what you just did. Now, I want you to try pushing it towards me, but this time I'm gong to try and push it towards you. It's not a perfect way to test how strong you are in the Force, but it'll do for now. Ready?"
The stone shivers, then moves slowly towards Qui-Gon. He closes his eyes and smiles. The stone stops and moves steadily back towards Anakin. Anakin frowns and concentrates. The stone stops. Obi-Wan looks at both of them, starts to look concerned. Qui-Gon isn't smiling anymore. The stone shakes violently in place. Suddenly it whips across the room. Qui-Gon ducks just in time for it to miss him and shatter on the wall behind him.
Anakin opens his eyes. "Was that good?"
Qui-Gon looks stunned. "Yes, yes, that was excellent. You should run along now." Anakin leaves.
Obi-Wan looks at the rock shards. "How strong is he?"
"That's only happened to me once before."
"With who?"
Qui-Gon looks down the hallway after the boy. "Yoda."
See? Tense, visual, we get a sense of the boy's power, and it makes the Jedis edgy right off.
Lose the "Anakin's virgin birth" reference. When Qui-Gon asks about his father, let his mother just smile and lower her head or say it's too painful to discuss or something.
Anakin's mother should give him something of hers when he leaves. We need a connection between them that the audience can see. Personally I wouldn't have minded hearing Anakin ask if they can free her, too. Be nice to know he tried.
Show us the suffering on Naboo, something besides the single shot of people being led away. I had real problems believing tales of misery and woe from an elected Queen who can't wear the same extravagant outfit twice running (mistaken identity nonetheless). Could we see the blockade blocking something? Are medical supplies running low? Are they starving? What?
The underwater chase scene was wasted. That should never have been some sea monster, it should have been part of the blockade, Sidious' soldiers chasing our heroes underwater, possibly while hunting for the Gungans. That way we wouldn't have had the sense of a dropped-in-for-the-video-game aspect, it would have progressed the plot and shown us how dangerous the situation is, and we would have had a better sense of "our heroes are in constant danger" from then on.
The first Darth Maul fight. Give us something fun. Let him alternate between fighting the Jedis and lopping off sections of their ship, just to show off.
When Qui-Gon introduces Anakin to the council and announces he's the chosen one, a smart-ass line from Obi-Wan would have been well-timed. He's got a personality, right? Right? Qui-Gon should argue forcefully but then give in. His announcement that he would train the boy anyway should be made after they leave the council. "So what do we do now, master?" "We train him anyway."
Some scenes showing us more of the fighting in the Senate might have helped, and the ridiculous floating Mickey Mouse shoes need to just go away. They didn't have the sense of grandeur or majesty that even a small courtroom can have. Put 'em in tiered seats and let 'em argue.
Give us a scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin butt heads, instead of Obi-Wan just not liking him. We need a reason for the animosity and the scene would allow us to identify with one of the other, depending. When Obi-Wan apologizes to Qui-Gon for his attitude towards the boy, Qui-Gon should have told him "I'm not the one to apologize to." Nice place to strengthen (or worsen) the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Jar-Jar should be shoved in with the front line foot soldiers, where he could have had exactly the same misadventures.
Give Darth Maul some scenes to be cool in. I don't mean flipping his saber around real fast, I mean like killing someone indiscriminately or showing him track the Jedis down in a clever and unexpected way.
I can live with Anakin getting stuck in a fighter on autopilot. But lose the unbelievable accidental crap. Let him exhibit whatever visual Force-using method he did in the pod race (see above) and dodge stuff. This is also a spot where the humor of the first three movies was missing here. Anakin should have fired on something that caused the people on the planet more problems first, like knocking aside a laser that took out the top of the building the Jedis were climbing on or something. After he crashes into the bay, let him ask R2 what that big thing over there is. R2 tells him it's the reactor port, and that damage to that could kill Anakin as well. Let Anakin shoot it (on purpose) anyway, and then get pleasantly surprised when his ship escapes damage. That can be as miraculous as you like since that character will have "earned" it in the eyes of the audience.
Big fight scene with Darth Maul - again, make him interesting and not just skilled. He fought gracefully, let him be playful. He should manuever the two skilled jedi into each other, or get past their guards to make crippling blows a little at a time. Lose the force-field scene, it could just as easily be done by having the three people fall into a new scene and stand there, facing each other, waiting for a move. Maul could pace, Qui-Gon could stand peacefully, Obi-Wan could do whatever it was he did. Personally, I'd have liked the ending to have come like this: Qui-Gon quickly realizes they can't beat this guy. For possibly the first time in the movie, he's flustered, and he's fearing for his apprentice's life. Finally he works himself around so that Maul can kill him, knowing that it'll leave Obi-Wan an opening to kill Maul in turn. Obi-Wan does so, proud that he beat the guy, finally doing something right after playing second banana to a kid the whole time, then he sees the cost.
[ January 05, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Very nicely done. All good suggestions.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
When we're talking about Star Wars post-RotJ, we need to keep in mind Knights of the Old Republic, the best video game of last year, and the best Star Wars story of the last 20 years.
Anyone else here play that?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Chris, you will be the first person to whom I might ever show my highly illegal fanscripts for the prequel trilogy. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote: Chris, you will be the first person to whom I might ever show my highly illegal fanscripts for the prequel trilogy.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:Add some scenes to show us that Anakin has the Force in him. Let Qui-Gon see Anakin absent-mindedly reach for a tool that jumps into his hand without him noticing, or run his hands over a machine before going right to the section that's broken. Let him get imperiled in the pod race and then concentrate until his pod rights itself, let his eyes roll back a little while he miraculously dodges obstacles, something. Mostly, give us some visible symbol that shows he's Using the Force. Even having Anakin grab Jar-Jar's tongue in mid-air after seeing Qui-Gon do it once would be something.
That's not how it works. It would require immense training for Anakin to be able tp physically move things with the Force. Remember how hard Luke had to concentrate to grab his lightsaber in the Wampa cave in ESB? Fixing an engine in the middle of a race would far above Anakin's head. And I think the Podrace itself shows just as much use of the Force as grabbing Jar Jar's tongue would. Quick relfexes are wuick reflexes.
quote:Let Qui-Gon explain the Force to Anakin by showing him instead of telling him. Not only has Anakin never seen it, but it's been many years since the audience has seen new Force moves and it would have helped.
If we were following your rules, Anakin would have seen the Force before Qui-Gon showed him. According to you, Anakin should have been absentmindedly pulling wrenches into his grasp. When Qui-Gon would then show Anakin the Force, would have to recognize what he was doing (and considering his dreams of being a Jedi anyway, it 'd make him the dumbest Star Wars character ever for not noticing what it was) and shrug it away. "Oh I've been doing that for years." It wouldn't work.
And you think lifting rocks would be "new Force moves?" Besides hardly being "new," Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were deflecting lasers and Force pushing droids all over the place in the Trade Federation ship. I'm sure the audience was satisfied with TPM in terms of Force powers used.
quote:Also a good spot for Anakin to get to do something to prove to himself (and us) that he's Force-ful. Dump the mitichlorians. Let Qui-Gon test Anakin with some kind of simple mental exercise, like moving a small rock.
It doesn't matter how strong Anakin is in the Force, he would not be able to move a small rock. That'd be like saying a guy with huge biceps would be able to hit a home run, just based on the size of his muscles. Let's not consider hand eye coordination or anything of that sort. As long as he has the strength, right? It'd be same expecting Anakin to be able to manipulate the Force without training.
YOue ever wonder why Obi-Wan was only becoming a Jedi Knight after twenty years of being a Padawan? Its not supposed to be easy.
quote:Lose the "Anakin's virgin birth" reference. When Qui-Gon asks about his father, let his mother just smile and lower her head or say it's too painful to discuss or something.
Well if we're ditching the virgin mother thing, we might as well just say the father's dead or something. Shmi saying she doesn't want to talk about it would serve nothing other than making people ask question that would most likely never get answered.
quote:The first Darth Maul fight. Give us something fun. Let him alternate between fighting the Jedis and lopping off sections of their ship, just to show off.
Not only would that then mean that we have to lengthen the tatooine sequence long enough to get even more repair parts (thus nullifying the entire Podracing sequence, anyway), it doesn't fit Darth Maul's character. If he did slice of pieces of the ship, it would be the parts that would most cripple the ship giving him more time to kill everyone on board. Darth Maul does not have fun, he gets the job done.
Besides, that was just a teaser battle for the one at the end. It wasn't supposed to be fun. Not as much anyway.
quote:When Qui-Gon introduces Anakin to the council and announces he's the chosen one, a smart-ass line from Obi-Wan would have been well-timed. He's got a personality, right? Right? Qui-Gon should argue forcefully but then give in. His announcement that he would train the boy anyway should be made after they leave the council. "So what do we do now, master?" "We train him anyway."
I don't really see what that would really add. If your saying Obi-Wan should be a smart aleck in front of the Council, you need to stop suggesting things to fix Star Wars. Obi-Wan would not spend twenty years of his life training to be a Jedi only to act disrespectful in front of the Council. In front of Qui-Gon, perhaps, who would be more like a father to him than an authority figure. But never in front of the Council.
And if you weren't suggesting Obi-Wan saying anything in front of the Council, then I still don't get what it would add. I would think Obi-Wan says plenty of smart aleck things anyway. "The negotiations were short." etc.
quote:Some scenes showing us more of the fighting in the Senate might have helped, and the ridiculous floating Mickey Mouse shoes need to just go away. They didn't have the sense of grandeur or majesty that even a small courtroom can have. Put 'em in tiered seats and let 'em argue.
Considering the politics were what a lot of people hated the most (outside of the childishness), I seriously doubt very many people at all would agree with you.
quote:Give us a scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin butt heads, instead of Obi-Wan just not liking him. We need a reason for the animosity and the scene would allow us to identify with one of the other, depending. When Obi-Wan apologizes to Qui-Gon for his attitude towards the boy, Qui-Gon should have told him "I'm not the one to apologize to." Nice place to strengthen (or worsen) the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
I personally wouldn't say Obi-Wan was overly rude to Anakin at all. He didn't agree with taking the boy along, and said so to Qui-Gon, but he never more than simply left Anakin alone. Episode I was not about Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. That's Episode II.
quote:Give Darth Maul some scenes to be cool in. I don't mean flipping his saber around real fast, I mean like killing someone indiscriminately or showing him track the Jedis down in a clever and unexpected way.
Darth Maul wouldn't have killed someone indiscriminately. He would have had a reason, which would have had to have been shown, which would have slowed down the movie. A few more small snippets of Darth Maul tracking would have been nice, but hardly necessary. There are very many people who find Darth Maul cool enough as he is. No need to try to milk it.
quote:Big fight scene with Darth Maul - again, make him interesting and not just skilled. He fought gracefully, let him be playful. He should manuever the two skilled jedi into each other, or get past their guards to make crippling blows a little at a time. Lose the force-field scene, it could just as easily be done by having the three people fall into a new scene and stand there, facing each other, waiting for a move. Maul could pace, Qui-Gon could stand peacefully, Obi-Wan could do whatever it was he did. Personally, I'd have liked the ending to have come like this: Qui-Gon quickly realizes they can't beat this guy. For possibly the first time in the movie, he's flustered, and he's fearing for his apprentice's life. Finally he works himself around so that Maul can kill him, knowing that it'll leave Obi-Wan an opening to kill Maul in turn. Obi-Wan does so, proud that he beat the guy, finally doing something right after playing second banana to a kid the whole time, then he sees the cost.
Again, Darth Maul is not playful. He was trying to kill the Jedi and that was joy enough for him. He didn't need to toy with them. Besides, he was tough but not so tough as to be able to just play with Jedi. He was fighting just as hard as Anakin and Obi-Wan were.
And the rest of the fight could have been done like that, or it could have been done like it was already. Why change it? It adds nothing more to the scene. In fact, it would have to cut out the entire one-on-one duel between Kenobi and Maul (my favorite part), since I doubt Qui-Gon would have allowed himself to be killed for an opening that may or may not come 20 moves later. And since you are so intent on making everything about Maul "cooler," destroying the best part of the Maul fight would be counter-productive.
Some of these things you've listed are downright ludicrous when placed into the Star Wars universe, or unnecessary as a whole. While I agree that TPM could have been done a lot better, it would not have been your way. Not without even more corrections to your...corrections.
PS: Anything I didn't quote, etc. I pretty much agreed with. Just FYI. Not all was bad, just the parts above.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
The first thing I would have done was NOT KILL QUI-GON! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Ginol, almost everything you said was wrong. Luckily, there were some things you didn't say, because you agreed with Chris -- and on those things, you were right.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Thing is, I don't know anything more about the Star Wars universe than is in the movies, and one or two of the books. I don't know that Darth Maul wouldn't have done any of that. All I know of him is what's on the screen, and it didn't impress me. He wouldn't be playful? Fine. Show him being relentless.
And I think the Podrace itself shows just as much use of the Force as grabbing Jar Jar's tongue would.
I'll concede the unliklihood of the rock-moving, but I can't give you this. I don't get anything out of Anakin during the pod race. The goggles block his face and he barely moves.
Fast racing. Anakin stares at screen. Pod explodes. Anakin stares at screen. Another pod explodes. Anakin stares at screen. Another lap, much like the rest of them. Anakin stares at screen.
Introducing Luke into the mysteries of the Force was fun to watch. Anakin's introduction felt like sitting in a clinic.
Well if we're ditching the virgin mother thing, we might as well just say the father's dead or something. Shmi saying she doesn't want to talk about it would serve nothing other than making people ask question that would most likely never get answered.
So? I don't mind mysteries in movies. I do mind a poor plot point trying to add mythos to a character who doesn't need it. Maybe virgin birth children are common on Tattoine, I dunno, but I would have expected her to either keep quiet about it or reveal it only carefully, and then in a much more emotional scene as that, not like she was describing his first baby tooth.
...it doesn't fit Darth Maul's character.
Again, how do I know that? All I know about him is that he has a skin condition. I would settle for at least one scene of him tracking, something to show his character.
If your saying Obi-Wan should be a smart aleck in front of the Council, you need to stop suggesting things to fix Star Wars.
Actually I was suggesting he say something as an aside to Qui-Gon, not as a proclamation to the councilm but I didn't make that clear.
Considering the politics were what a lot of people hated the most (outside of the childishness), I seriously doubt very many people at all would agree with you.
They would if the politics didn't bore them. Granted, working exposition into a scene without losing your audience isn't easy, but I think it could have been done better than this was.
Episode I was not about Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship. That's Episode II.
Not suggesting it should have been. I would have appreciated thirty seconds of screen time to establish their relationship at that point, though. When Obi-Wan agrees to train the boy at the end, we know he's not thrilled with the idea. It would have had more impact if we'd seen them interacting beforehand and gotten an idea of how stressed (or not) their relationship was. By the time Episode II starts that's already been resolved.
Darth Maul wouldn't have killed someone indiscriminately.
Again, how do I know that?
A few more small snippets of Darth Maul tracking would have been nice, but hardly necessary.
I'd settle for one decent one, ideally something that reveals his character. Or, if that's impossible, how about a reference from Sidious?
"What about the Jedi?" "I've unleashed Darth Maul. There's no escape for them now but the grave," or something suitably cheesy.
I should have been afraid of him. I should have been dreading his appearance in every scene because of how evil or mean or just terrifyingly efficient he was. I wasn't.
Again, Darth Maul is not playful. He was trying to kill the Jedi and that was joy enough for him. He didn't need to toy with them. Besides, he was tough but not so tough as to be able to just play with Jedi. He was fighting just as hard as Anakin and Obi-Wan were.
One thing that also might have helped, and not just here. Where are the injuries during lightsaber duels? We seem to have only three possibilities: death, lopped-off hand, or no harm at all. The number of lopped off hands in the Star Wars universe isn't that unlikely. In any swordfight the hand and arm is an obvious target, and when your weapon can slice right through things lopping is almost inevitable. But why not other injuries? Slashes, cuts, a kidney stab? One of the scenes I remember from Splinter of the Mind's Eye was Luke activating his saber while someone was standing behind him, which made perfect sense to me. How about if I leave the last battle alone, but we add in numerous near-fatal injuries, along with at least the same level of damaged surroundings that occurred in, say, the Wolverine/Whatever-Her-Name-Is fight in X2?
I will admit that the last battle wouldn't have been nearly as ludicrous to me if someone in the Star Wars universe would put some freaking railings on their thirty-story walkovers.
Some of these things you've listed are downright ludicrous when placed into the Star Wars universe, or unnecessary as a whole.
Only if you look past the movies. If I have to know the entire Star Wars Canon, read every book and comic and play every video game, just to enjoy the movie, I'll just stay at home, thanks.
Some of the things I suggested are, in their own way, just as illogical as what they replace. But what they're there for is to involve the audience, to show us what we need to see, to bring us into this created world and be so swept away we don't notice the cracks here and there. When I watched the movies, mostly what I saw were the cracks.
[ January 05, 2005, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
quote:I'll concede the unliklihood of the rock-moving, but I can't give you this. I don't get anything out of Anakin during the pod race. The goggles block his face and he barely moves.
Introducing Luke into the mysteries of the Force was fun to watch. Anakin's introduction felt like sitting in a clinic.
The idea was that podracing is a very very fast and dangerous sport, more so to a 10 year old human. The fact that Anakin could do it alone, the relfexes he would have to require, etc., should be enough to establish he has the Force, at least to some degree. I can understand some shots maybe wanting to see Anakin "seeing" something before it happens, but any controlled use of the Force would be... Incorrect.
quote:So? I don't mind mysteries in movies. I do mind a poor plot point trying to add mythos to a character who doesn't need it. Maybe virgin birth children are common on Tattoine, I dunno, but I would have expected her to either keep quiet about it or reveal it only carefully, and then in a much more emotional scene as that, not like she was describing his first baby tooth.
The virgin birth is supposed to show that Anakin is the prophesized one. Anakin was pretty much the Force creating what it needed to blanace itself out. The scene revealing that could probably have been handled well (Shmi most certainly would have thought about it more than, "He's special.") But I don't think it so out of place to need to change it.
quote:Again, how do I know that? All I know about him is that he has a skin condition. I would settle for at least one scene of him tracking, something to show his character.
Alright, there could have been a scene or two perhaps explaining Maul a little, but given Maul's status as pretty much a mere tool for Sidious, I don't think it would have drastically increased the quality of the movie.
quote:Actually I was suggesting he say something as an aside to Qui-Gon, not as a proclamation to the councilm but I didn't make that clear.
Alright.
quote:They would if the politics didn't bore them. Granted, working exposition into a scene without losing your audience isn't easy, but I think it could have been done better than this was.
Well, that depends. People were going into Episode I expecting a movie pretty much exactly like the classic trilogy, only a generation back. Since the Classic Trilogy didn't have any politics except for a throwaway line explaning the disbandment of the Senate, a lot of people were... I don't know. It was what they were expecting. I doubt that any political scenes would have been well received no matter how wonderful they were.
quote:Not suggesting it should have been. I would have appreciated thirty seconds of screen time to establish their relationship at that point, though. When Obi-Wan agrees to train the boy at the end, we know he's not thrilled with the idea. It would have had more impact if we'd seen them interacting beforehand and gotten an idea of how stressed (or not) their relationship was. By the time Episode II starts that's already been resolved.
I don't really think it would added that much. Its very easy to see where Obi-Wan's and Anakin's relationship was at the end of TPM even without exposition. I got it when I was eleven years old, I don't really think it was complicated at all. And its not hard to imagine that relationship growing into the one the pair had in AotC. Its doesn't need to be explained.
quote:One thing that also might have helped, and not just here. Where are the injuries during lightsaber duels? We seem to have only three possibilities: death, lopped-off hand, or no harm at all.
Depending on the character the injuries can't be too serious, of course. The Jedi are strong, but not all powerful. There has to be a limit to how much a character can be damaged.
In Episode I, in particular, the only character, I think, who could really have been damaged was Qui-Gon. If Darth Maul was injured during just the normal fight, it would have taken some of the threat away. I think the fight at the end gains a lot of suspense just simply because it was two against one, and the one was holding his own; perhaps even winning. Obi-Wan couldn't have been damaged too badly since he does have to survive.
Then if you consider Episode II where Obi-Wan is actually damaged besides arm and death (he gets "cut" [burned would probably more correct, hoewever] both in the shoulder and hip in the fight with Dooku), you'll see he was completely knocked out of the fight even after 10 more years of training and experience after Episode I.
Qui-Gon getting damaged before his death would have just been adding on unnecessary punishment. While that would be good for some other movies, I don't think it would really fit Star Wars. At least that scene, and especially in Episode I where Lucas tried to aim even more towards children.
quote:How about if I leave the last battle alone, but we add in numerous near-fatal injuries, along with at least the same level of damaged surroundings that occurred in, say, the Wolverine/Whatever-Her-Name-Is fight in X2?
Structural damage works in some battles, less so in others. The battle in TPM was between two very well trained and experienced duelists and an almost fully trained apprentice. They fight with far more finesse than a drunken brawler with claws and his female counter-part.
Besides, you have plenty of structural damage in Episode II and the Classic trilogy where everyone's trying to chuck debris at each other with the Force.
quote:I will admit that the last battle wouldn't have been nearly as ludicrous to me if someone in the Star Wars universe would put some freaking railings on their thirty-story walkovers.
Yep.
quote:Only if you look past the movies. If I have to know the entire Star Wars Canon, read every book and comic and play every video game, just to enjoy the movie, I'll just stay at home, thanks.[/quote}
Well, I think "understand" better fits than "enjoy," but I concede.
[quote]Some of the things I suggested are, in their own way, just as illogical as what they replace. But what they're there for is to involve the audience, to show us what we need to see, to bring us into this created world and be so swept away we don't notice the cracks here and there. When I watched the movies, mostly what I saw were the cracks.
I can understand where you're coming from, I just don't think you're going the right direction. I don't think TPM's problems were so much in the story itself or in scenes that could be added, but just the mishandling of what's already there. Mostly in terms of the mismanagement of what's funny and what's serious and exactly how much darker the underlying story is, as opposed to what George Lucas presented.
To make myself feel better, I like to rationalize it by thinking that Lucas was trying to give us some light-heartedness before the gradual increasing darkness in II and III. Spoonful of sugar...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote: Wolverine/Whatever-Her-Name-Is fight in X2?
Yuriko
Or Lady Deathstrike, depending on where in the timeline you want to look. But even at that they totally screwed up her character in the movie. Wolverine and her were supposed to have a long history together, but they totally erased all that.
Then again this has nothing to do with Star Wars, it's just an in general rant about comic books being screwed up on the journey to the big screen.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Wow ! I am impressed by all you can write about Star Wars ! Unfortunatelly, i can't follow all of that and must read in diagonal
Ok, Neo-dragon, I understand better about the third trilogy.
I don't think G.L. was inspirate a lot by the WW2. I think he made a story about The young boy with his friend the old Wizard (like bilbo and gandalf) who go to the tavern to form a team. This team was the Big Warrior and the good and crafty robber. They want to help the princess napped by the Black knight and after that go to destroy the Dark Emperor Castel.
I think Georges Lucas play Roles playing games as ad&d...
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Luke takes 2D12 damage from the wampa ice monster! George, roll me some initiative! [/geeky_voice]
I agree with many of the previous comments about Episode I. What character development that did exist was done in a fairly tactless way. I always cringe when Anakin asks Padme, "Are you an Angel?" and proceeds to tell an interesting but very poorly acted story about space angels. As any high school writing teacher would say, It's telling, not showing.
I also have trouble plotting the line between Anakin in PM and Anakin in AotC. He goes from good natured boy to sullen teenager, and there's little that reveals why. Maybe Obi-Wan beat him or something (kidding ). Maybe he's just being a teenager, but then why would the Jedi want to train children, when they are so dangerous as adolescants? I'd deny them any real training until they were emotionally stable 20-year-olds. In any case, there should be some foreshadowing of the conflict between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Also, it was my understanding that in the Star Wars universe, force-sensitive people do exhibit force abilities independent of training. It was also my understanding that there were force users outside of the Jedi and had no formal training in the use (or even existence) of the force. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Darth Maul was a stupid character. Darth Sideous would want an intelligent and cruel apprentice before one that was just trained in the lightsaber. Any tweak can learn to use a lightsaber, given time, it's the cunning and the evil that I'd look for, as a dark lord. It would be really cool to have a scene where Maul was "extracting" information from an informant at the point of a lightsaber.
I would like to see many more near-misses and glancing blows in lightsaber duels. It would be really interesting to see the blades whiz past our protagonists close enough to slice robes and perahps hair. Another cool moment could be when two sabers lock, and the audience watches as our protagonist's saber is forced into his own clothing, slowly cooking it (CGI effects, of course). The hero then regains his strength (or whatever) and the lock is broken. The hero isn't hurt, but tensions are high for a few seconds.
Also, I'm tired of rehashes of the same Star Wars space battle. The battle above Naboo was basically the same as the two Death Star battles: fly inside the enemy ship, shoot it, fly out. I would've loved to see a Naboo cruiser lift off from the capital city, and fly up there to engage in a capital ship v. capital ship slug fest. A pivotal moment could been when the Naboo ship--after holding its own against many Trade Federation ships--is overwhelmed rendered a burning hulk in space (none of this spastically blowing up sillyness) as the last of its vapors are blown out of its wrecked hull. Meanwhile Anakin zips around in little art-deco fighter and ends up saving the day. Or something.
I may have missed something--why are the trade federation ships also highly proficient warships? It's usually hard to make a good warship-freighter combo becuase it's hard to find room for cargo and good guns.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
On Darth Maul and his "playing" with the Jedi, I think that is exactly what he would have done.
Even the crappy EU stuff on Darth Maul shows his arrogance and desire to show up the Jedi and how superior the Sith are. This is hinted at in TPM, when DM says to Sidious, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will take our revenge," and his hubris in taking on 2 Jedi at once. But while this is hinted at, making him more than a walking lightsaber would have done an number of things. It would have been more menacing, both in terms of, 'wow, Sidious is something to have this beast under his absolute control,' and also showing the rage of the Sith, explaining it, fleshing out the character of this Sith apprentice, and making him much more menacing. I do believe he would have been casual in his violence as he searched for his enemy. Again, I'm not the only one. EU crap shows this too.
As it is, we see Sidious being manipulative and the offscreen results are death and violence (the Naboo invasion/war). But the results are largely offscreen. Oh, and we see him speaking to a bunch of morons (Nemoidians). Way to go with your bad self, Sidious. He seemed- what's the word?- not malevolent, but more just there and mildly bad. He should have oozed evil and malevolence. The contrast between his private persona (Sidious) and his public (Palpatine) would have been interesting to see and made the Palpatine scenes resonate with foreboding. They don't really, as much as I did enjoy his machinations.
And Anakin could definitely been less "accidental" about everything he did (as I hear the "Phantom Edit" version makes him).
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: I may have missed something--why are the trade federation ships also highly proficient warships? It's usually hard to make a good warship-freighter combo becuase it's hard to find room for cargo and good guns.
I somehow read "guns" as "puns" and thought you were making a joke that I didn't get. Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
From the previews for the new Star Wars movie, I feel that it may be better than I orginally thought but it still won't be too good. Oh yes and bump. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm divided.
Half of me wants to argue with the non believers here who find it their mission in life to destroy the Prequels and uplift the original three.
The other half doesn't think it's worth it, because no minds will ever be changed.
But I will say this. If Episode III is godlike, half the people who hated the first two still won't like it, becuase they have themselves worked up into a tizzy. Either way, most people who hate the first two already have a firm idea that the third will suck, and nothing they see in the third one will sway them.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I was looking over some physics problems the other day, and discussing them with a colleague. There was one problem we weren't quite sure how to solve, involving some orbits. So we discussed using the potential energy, but couldn't get that to work. "Can we use Kepler's Laws?" Nah... "Let's see, we know the masses involved... Use the force?" I swear, I didn't know that was going to come out of my mouth until I said it. We eventually ended up solving it with conservation of angular momentum.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
KOM- I have no idea what you're talking about.
Lyrham- I agree. I like the original trilogy, and I like the second movie in the prequels, I thought Phantom Menace was too slow. Anyway, I'm sure I'll see it and I'm sure I'll like it. But I still don't think these can compare to the original trilogy. Personally, I think the advance in special effects just makes the prequels worse, they're like a fancy light show.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think the original trilogy was better too...depending.
I don't like to compare them though, they are based on totally and entirely different premises.
One is about the fall of someone from light to dark, the end of a great republic and the start of empire, the end of freedom and the start of tyranny.
The other is the opposite, the fall of a dark lord and the rising of a hero of light, the end of an empire and the start of a new republic, the end of oppression and the redawn of freedom.
How do you compare two things that are totally different? Space battles in the original three were rarely seen because the Rebel Alliance barely had any ships, and I admit being disappointed with the space battles in the new trilogy thus far, but I expect it to get better in the third prequel. As for special effects, I can respect your opinion, but I like...70% of the flashier CGI work. Some of it is too overdone and makes everything look artificial, but the majority of it to me is good.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I compare them because they are both about Anakin Skywalker. Lucas admits that Luke was just a side character in the larger story of Anakin. I feel that the third trilogy is better because the plot seems more thought out. The prequels are flashy and seem to be just a way to get publicity and increase the size of his fan base, an attempt to entertain children and make them fans. If the third movie has any plot at all, then I will be wrong. But until then, I feel it is just a light show meant to enslave children.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's true the first two are much more lacking in plot than the original three. But, to defend Lucas at least a little bit:
The original story arc takes place over the course of a couple years. It's an easier to manage timeline, and there is enough time to introduce the plot in a well defined manner, along with the characters, who are by themselves already fully developed when they are first onscreen (with the exception of Luke).
The new one on the other hand takes place over the course of almost thirty years. He has to introduce Anakin, involve him with a woman, at the same time he has to show Palpatine's rise to power, create galactic conflict, and then he has to start Anakin's fall, while being involved with a woman, kill off the entire Jedi Order he spent the first two movies introducing, and show the total fall to the dark side.
You have to admit that is a lot of ground for him to cover in three movies. If he leaves any of it out, people complain that he left stuff out and that the movies suck because they don't explain enough. If he moves through it too fast and tries to cover all his bases, people complain that there's too much to it and that he doesn't stop to take the time to explain finer points.
In the end it's his own fault, he painted himself into that corner with the originial trilogy, but at the same time, people need to cut him a break, I highly doubt they could do any better.
Posted by Risare (Member # 7668) on :
Yare yare...
Okay, first i'd like to say... I really liked Chris' additions. I sure as hell would have enjoyed the movie more... or wait, would i still be picking on it?! i don't know!!!!
Regardless...
Sure they have some issues, and i am decently acquainted with the books and other SW media...but if Lucas is going to screw with/change/disregard those books (ex: Clone Wars and Bobba) why not some of this other stuff? :: shrugs :: I still think that the movies would have been more enjoyable with a bit more character thrown in. And i'm going to save everyone the time and say that i agree with his(Chris') aesthetic points.
Does it bother anyone else that Qui-Gon's relationship with Obi-Wan isn't all that... there? I know i know, they can't get into it too much due to time. But isn't it the mark of real creative genius to be able to show some of that along the way? You know, little bits here and there, perhaps a bit more emotion in regards to each other (i'm sure Anakin's wasn't the only one who had problems with the demands of being a Jedi on said person's humanity).
Me? For some reason, i don't remember why, i picked up and ended up reading the really little Young Adult books of the Jedi Apprentice series. And while they weren't all that great either, they really helped me become more involved in their Master/Padawan bond. I mean, Qui-Gon's last words to Obi-Wan were all about Anakin. I dunno about anyone else, but wouldn't that kinda bother YOU? Jedi or no Jedi...I was thinking about that even before i picked the books up, mind you.
Nit picky? Sure, maybe a bit.
But what i love the most about movies, books, comics, anime; is characters. Not so much CG or continuity... but the people on screen coming off as people that connect back to the audience and realistic human existence. And we all know that these people can act, so it must be the lines or the direction. You know?
I didn't mind the movies. And let's face it, even the originals had their share of corny lines. ( and it's all the Monomyth anyway )
Anyway, i had some other thoughts... ...but my room has been invaded and i was sucked into a Harrison Ford Movie conversation and now i've lost track...
It'll come back to me.
All in all, i've really enjoyed reading all these posts. And while looking too deeply into something you love can be concidered a bad thing, i think it helps, actually. I mean, would we be arguing if we didn't like it on some level?
[ March 29, 2005, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Risare ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
A fairly sensible argument.
I still think the bond between Obiwan and Quigon was shown somewhat well. The thing is though, it's a teacher-student relationship. Not father-son, not brother-brother, or any more familial relationship. The fact that Obiwan at the end of the first movie vowed to defy Master Yoda, and then threatened Yoda with that is testament enough to how high a regard he felt for Quigon.
I totally agree with you about how he messed up Boba Fett. I was so angry about that.
I wouldn't have had a problem with Lucas making the movies each an hour longer to include all the stuff the complainers feel is missing. There's a flaw I'm willing to admit. One of the previous few Posted by Risare (Member # 7668) on :
quote:The fact that Obiwan at the end of the first movie vowed to defy Master Yoda, and then threatened Yoda with that is testament enough to how high a regard he felt for Quigon.
Oooh that is true... that had kinda slipped my mind. :: looks guilty :: It does show it... ....but is it enough? hmm, hmm?!
And it was after the fact...before hand would have made his death more effective, perhaps? I remember my neighbors (who saw it with me, and were also fans) going "i felt like i was being forced to care" about Qui's death.
On a happier note: anyone else heard the Star Wars/John William's song by a group called Moosebutter?? Not enough people know what i'm talking about...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yeah, I'll give you that point, it should have been earlier. Would have made his death more powerful.
And yeah, someone just posted that moosebutter song. It's the best thing since sliced bread! I love it! I almost died of a asthma attack from lack of oxygen. Fantastically awesome song. My friends and I had a blast picking out all the John Williams themes.
Posted by His Savageness (Member # 7428) on :
As someone who's only casually read any of the EU books (the excellent Zahn books and some of the really, really horrible Jason Anderson books) I don't know how Bobba Fett was supposed to get started. Everyone keeps mentioning how Lucas screwed it up, can someone fill me in?
I didn't hate the first two movies, but I didn't love them either. I agree with most of Chris's and would like to add one: make Anakin older. A lot of the things he did in TPM would have made more sense to me coming from a 12/13 year old than a seven year old.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Boba Fett (this is from memory, so I don't have all the details on me) was supposed to be Jaster Mareel, a former Journeyman Protector from some backwater planet. Basically he was a law officer but something made him go bad, I don't remember what, I think it was the corruption in the system.
He wasn't supposed to be a clone. His father was not Jango Fett.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Also just because I'm bored, I'll cover Chris' suggestions. I hadn't commented before because I felt Ginol had covered all the points well and I agreed with him. But I'll elaborate:
quote:Change the alien accents, or use subtitles.
Relatively small plot point, but I'll give you that. Though personally I think just as many people would have complained about that either way.
quote: Add some scenes to show us that Anakin has the Force in him. Let Qui-Gon see Anakin absent-mindedly reach for a tool that jumps into his hand without him noticing, or run his hands over a machine before going right to the section that's broken. Let him get imperiled in the pod race and then concentrate until his pod rights itself, let his eyes roll back a little while he miraculously dodges obstacles, something. Mostly, give us some visible symbol that shows he's Using the Force.
This is a horrible idea. Utterly horrible. Jedi can't lift rocks and do those kinds of things absentmindedly, or after five minutes of training. In the first movies it worked, because Obiwan had been guiding Luke all along the way, and then gave him a lightsaber. The podrace, while a little overdone, was meant to show his reflexes with the force, as Quigon explained in the movie to those who paid attention.
quote: but it's been many years since the audience has seen new Force moves and it would have helped. Dump the mitichlorians. Let Qui-Gon test Anakin with some kind of simple mental exercise, like moving a small rock.
Dump the mitichlorians fine, but other than that all bad ideas. There aren't really any new force moves. Levitation, Force push, those telekinetic things that we see visually is really all there is to it. You're just trying variations on a theme, and they don't fit with the prexisting standard of Jedi development.
quote:Lose the "Anakin's virgin birth" reference. When Qui-Gon asks about his father, let his mother just smile and lower her head or say it's too painful to discuss or something.
Alright, I'll give you that one. It ruins the whole chosen one, conceived by the Force thing, but whatever.
The Anakin's mother thing, well, alright I can see that happening too. It would have set up the Episode II Anakin freak out a lot better, since we really aren't given a reason to believe he missed his mother that much. But that is the price you pay in skipping your timelime ahead 10 years between movies.
I'll also go along with the showing the effects of the blockade thing. Especially if this replaces the stupid underwater chase scene, which took up valuable screen time for virtually no plot movement. Underwater droid attacks would have been just as stupid. Should have cut the whole scene.
quote: The first Darth Maul fight. Give us something fun. Let him alternate between fighting the Jedis and lopping off sections of their ship, just to show off.
Again, stupid. They just spent the last hour of the movie fixing the damn ship, you want them to break it again? They'd spend the entire movie on Tatooine!
quote: When Qui-Gon introduces Anakin to the council and announces he's the chosen one, a smart-ass line from Obi-Wan would have been well-timed. He's got a personality, right? Right? Qui-Gon should argue forcefully but then give in. His announcement that he would train the boy anyway should be made after they leave the council. "So what do we do now, master?" "We train him anyway."
I don't think you understand Quigon or especially Obiwan. Obiwan is split between his obedience to the Council and his devotion to his master. And if Quigon had committed treason by not telling the Council of his plans, and having two padawans, that would have really screwed with the future plot lines when all of a sudden there's a random new powerful Jedi, and all of a sudden Quigon is villified.
I don't know what you mean by the Senate. I thought it was full of grandeur. Tiered seating? How would you ever be able to address the person you wish to speak to across the room in such a setting? I felt it was well done. And I don't know what you mean by Mickey Mouse shoe things, you mean the floating platforms?
I don't think they should butt heads at all, Obiwan and Anakin. You'd be creating a false setting for the second movie. Obiwan takes on a paternal role, you can't make it seem like he resents the boy all along, he doesn't, he's just worried about what will happen to Quigon.
Jar-Jar should be been killed, but I digress.
quote:Give Darth Maul some scenes to be cool in. I don't mean flipping his saber around real fast, I mean like killing someone indiscriminately or showing him track the Jedis down in a clever and unexpected way
::Sigh:: Again, this sets things in the wrong direction. Darth Sidious is not yet strong enough or in the right position to act so brazenly. That's why Darth Maul is kept a secret for so long. He starts murdering people and running around like a vigilante and that screws with the overall story arc more. And he tracked the Jedi to Tatooine and attacked them there, where else do you want that to happen?
I think the fighter sequence is more like variations on a theme. Your way would work just as well, maybe a little bit better comedically for the reasons you mentioned. But overall it's not a huge difference. I'd let that change happen.
quote:Big fight scene with Darth Maul - again, make him interesting and not just skilled. He fought gracefully, let him be playful. He should manuever the two skilled jedi into each other, or get past their guards to make crippling blows a little at a time. Lose the force-field scene, it could just as easily be done by having the three people fall into a new scene and stand there, facing each other, waiting for a move. Maul could pace, Qui-Gon could stand peacefully, Obi-Wan could do whatever it was he did. Personally, I'd have liked the ending to have come like this: Qui-Gon quickly realizes they can't beat this guy. For possibly the first time in the movie, he's flustered, and he's fearing for his apprentice's life. Finally he works himself around so that Maul can kill him, knowing that it'll leave Obi-Wan an opening to kill Maul in turn. Obi-Wan does so, proud that he beat the guy, finally doing something right after playing second banana to a kid the whole time, then he sees the cost.
Your fight scene suggestion is one of the worst yet. The two Jedi move with the Force in tandem, and their movements come from Force driven instinct, they wouldn't be so easily manipulated, especially not Quigon. Also, what kind of crippling blows do you expect him to inflict with a massive lightsaber? Either you miss, you die, or you chop off a limb and they are out of the fight. Force field, no force field, tomato, tomahto, it's no different. As for the last suggestion, "there is no fear, only the Force." Especially for a Jedi master whose last words were about Anakin. Moreover, I think they could have won if they kept fighting him together, and that set up Obiwan's anger which led to him killing Darth Maul.
Some good suggestions, some very bad ones that just don't fit into the Star Wars universe. You want Lucas to compromise what he has created for the sake of making the movie fit your idea of how Star Wars should be. But there are groundrules in place, if you ignore those, you piss off just as many people.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
See, Chris is suggesting how to make the movie flow better so people care about what happens to the characters. Which is what we're looking at here, the movies should be driven by the strength of the characters and the throw away richness of the world. It wasn't and it sucked in pretty much every important criteria a movie can suck in. The acting was terrible, though Liam really tried he support the movie like Harrison did, the pacing poorly thought out, the exposition either missing or laughable, and the plot couldn't drive the piece because we already knew what was going to happen.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Some good suggestions, some very bad ones that just don't fit into the Star Wars universe."
See, you don't get to use that sentence in defense of Lucas. For what it's worth, I think Chris is almost 100% right on target.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well I guess I can't argue with you because we're looking at other things.
You just want any old sci fi movie that fits and works as any old sci fi movie.
I want Star Wars. Star Wars has rules, many of which Steve wanted to break with his suggestions, and what I think are his misunderstandings of some of the characters. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Where are these rules established, though? We know GL pretty much only looks at the other movies as canon, and he's pretty liberal with that himself. Having not devoured every SW book out there (KJA killed them for me and I never recovered) many of his suggestions sound okay to me. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I want Star Wars. Star Wars has rules, many of which Steve wanted to break with his suggestions..."
Bah. I solemnly guarantee you that I'm as big of a geek as you are, and none of the changes Chris has proposed here are as big as some of the changes Lucas already made to his own canon. *grin*
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
As I stated on GalacticCactus, Ruth and I have decided that the biggest problem with Episode I is that it's simply a poor place to start the trilogy. The conflict isn't that interesting, so you don't get a chance to see how interesting the characters are. All it really does is introduce everything for Episode II. But then you have to jump ahead ten years before it starts to get really interesting.
I think Chris's suggestions are generally very good, but I like mine better: skip the Episode I plot and start with the imminent threat of the Clone Wars.
Edit: Also, here's an explanation of what's wrong with the characters in the prequels. It probably helps to understand Peircian logic.
[ March 30, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote: Steve wanted to break with his suggestions, and what I think are his misunderstandings of some of the characters.
And what suggestions might those be?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
For the love of God I'm having a bad day with names. Sorry Steve, I meant Chris.
You all should have seen me this morning trying to juggle 20 servers' names at the restaurant I work at, it was mayhem. My apologies again.
Like I said before, the suggestions Chris made (hah! got it right that time!)are all well and good for any old sci fi movie. I like a lot of what the EU established (yes, with the exception of KJA, and definetely the NJO, but there is enough in there to be worth saving, such as Zahn and Stackpole). But what it all comes down to is point of view. I think there is still a large majority of people who loved the films, all of them, and would be angered by the suggestions made.
Lucas will never make everyone happy, I think at this point he's just trying to make himself happy (maybe that's all he ever did, who knows?).
I also agree that Episode I was poorly, very poorly set in the timeline of the story arc. I almost think it would have been better to introduce him as a teenager and then explain the backstory as they went. At least then Episode II would have made a lot more sense, and he (Anakin) could have actually played a vital role in Episode I.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
And then we wouldn't have needed Jar Jar!!!!!!!!! Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Something for which we all could have been thankful for.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
At least we agree on that. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Exactly.
And think: what do you really lose if you skip the current Episode I plot? Very little, and I think you could easily work it into the new Episode I that starts ten years later.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I think Jar Jar was the low point in Lucas's career. I think he didn't believe that the prequel would do so well so he targeted it towards little children, thus the creation of Jar Jar. The second movie was much better, though Jar Jar was still there. I pray he won't be in the third one.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Half of me wants to argue with the non believers here who find it their mission in life to destroy the Prequels and uplift the original three.
The other half doesn't think it's worth it, because no minds will ever be changed.
I'm not a nonbeliever. Or a believer, for that matter. Yes, even in this, I'm agnostic... What I am is a moviegoer who was disappointed, and I tried to explain why.
I don't proclaim the original trilogy as being perfection on earth and the new trilogy as being total scum., If you read my posts in this thread before this page you'll see where I admit that the first three movies had major plot holes and that I liked the story arc of the prequels.
My Armchair Director(TM) point was that there was little in the prequels to invest me in the characters. I didn't really care what happened to them. I still don't. And I wanted to.
I wanted to see Anakin's sense of wonder, see him discover abilities within himself and get excited about learning more. I wanted to see his joy and pain because he's leaving his mother behind to discover his destiny. I wanted to see bonds of affection and respect between Obi Wan and Qui-Gon and see them tested and strained with the new kid. I wanted to see Anakin do things instead of reacting and getting lucky. I wanted to see Darth Maul and get excited because I knew something cool was about to happen, and feel nervous for the heroes because I knew he was always there.
I liked Sidious. I liked the overall idea behind the stories. I liked the other Jedis. But I just couldn't connect with the main characters -- with the possible exception of Padme -- and so I had plenty of time to notice plot holes and annoyances.
An example. I suggested putting hints of some Force abilities in the pod race, but some here suggest that it would have been impossible. Fair enough. Try this: at the most dangerous part of the race, as the music swells and his pod has problems and people are crashing around him, give me just one scene of Anakin's eyes losing focus slightly and cut the music suddenly to something haunting and mystical, with all the other background noises dimmed slightly. Let the race continue, with a cut to someone in the audience watching with binoculars and muttering, "That kid's amazing" or something, with a focus-cut to Qui-Gon behind the speaker, smiling slightly and nodding. There was nothing in the entire pod race to suggest that he did anything besides hang on and get lucky.
And we could have gotten some scene somewhere of Anakin being trained, even a little. The pod race lasted what, 10 minutes? I could have done without a few laps.
Having him cry or anguish over his mother would not have added any screen time at all. Just direct him to be upset when they part.
What we ended up with was an emotionless kid who can keep his foot on a gas pedal, with everyone around him talking about how powerful he is. Yawn.
The crime against Darth Maul was that he was never menacing. Dangerous, sure. But not crafty, not cunning, not menacing. Disappointing.
[ March 30, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Steve, I don't think that's why he made Jar-Jar. I'd bet he was pretty confident that Episode I would do amazingly well. I think he just forgot how to create a well-balanced set of characters; or rather, maybe the bad plotting threw off the characters, forcing Jar-Jar into the role of the throwaway comic relief.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well they couldn't have skipped Episode I and went to II directly. The only real plot elements needed from Episode I are Anakin leaving his mother to train as a Jedi, him being too old, and Obiwan is the one who is training him, and the chosen one balance theory.
Moving Episode I ahead to say, seven years in the future introduces Anakin as a teenager in the middle of his Jedi training. We start to see him acting like a stuck up whiney know it all like later, they meet up with an attractive young woman (Padme), perhaps in her dealings with the Galactic Senate, and she asks Obiwan about Anakin. Obiwan explains that Anakin was taken from Tatooine after him and his master were stranded there by a bad set of circumstances.
Now we have Anakin's backstory, our female love ineterest, and a whole two hours to explore Obiwan/Anakin relationship development! And all it took was a fifteen minute flashback/Q&A from Padme. Plus throughout the whole film, we perhaps can start to see the beginnings of what becomes the droid army, giving us a sense of urgency, like something huge is coming. They end it with a major victory, but not a complete one, we get a cliffhanger that leads us into Episode II.
Suddenly Episode II makes a lot more sense. The romance between Anakin and Padme isn't so awkward and unbelievable. The friction between Anakin and Obiwan isn't out of nowhere, and we see where it all stems from. We already know a droid army threat is out there, and the weird Dooku line isn't random, it's something we've known has been coming, but still hits us hard. There's no more stupid Jedi fighting in the arena scene like before. Instead they put the clone element in, just as in the real Episode II, clones rush off to help the Jedi fight a battle against droids on some world (maybe Naboo? show some real suffering, some real war? We have time for it now). And we're back where we are now, only the characters are all 100 times more well developed, and we are attached to them all as never before. Now Episode III is set up to be heart wrenching and emotional, as well as exciting and dramatic.
Also make them a half hour longer. If we can put up with LOTR being three hours or more longer, we can deal with Star Wars too.
Edit to add: Sorry, I'm just extremely defensive about Star Wars, and sometimes I just can't control myself
I like some of your revised ideas there, and yeah, I could have done without some of the laps too.
Second edit to add: No one is a bigger Star Wars geek than me . I'm the kind of geek that can name off Chewbacca's extended family, the type of blaster Han Solo wears, and name the temples on Yavin 4. Most of it is EU, but still, it's an impressive amount of knowledge about geekdom.
[ March 30, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
That works for me. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Fett Boba Fett's lack of ability was never an issue in 5 and 6 because for the most part he didn't need to do anything but look menacing.
The fight sequence in 2 during the battle with Obiwan was just painful, but I think we've also been spoiled by just what we expect out of a "really good" fight sequence. That and Fett's selection of gizmos didn't really muster to the mythology behind the character.
Anakin Anakin's reaction to finding his mother was the most subdued, muted form of anger I have ever seen. His only biological parent has been found, hanging from a torture rack and...he looks like he has gas.
Between that and the one saber slash across the screen, there isn't any hint of just how mad he is and what kind of carnage he wrecks. A single shot of him walking away from a burning camp with bodies littering the field would have been fine.
Sidious I didn't object to the character since he is the Fist of the Dark Side and as such is not a nice person. He was portrayed as tense and angry, highly aggressive in his fighting technique and general demeanor which contrasted nicely to QuiGon's serene meditation between clashes.
Battles My objection to the trailers of the Anakin/Obiwan battle is - it was shot in front of a green screen and the background dropped in while the actors staged a fight.
Fine.
But if the background is that of a catwalk about to crash and the actors are fighting like they're standing on stable ground, it takes away from the overall effect and it looks like just a little more CGI draped on shoddy work.
-Trevor
Edit: And yes, the actor inside the Fett armor looked like he was staggering around, which did tarnish the illusion just a bit.
[ March 30, 2005, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:A single shot of him walking away from a burning camp with bodies littering the field would have been fine.
Yes!
Seeing him calmly walk away from the carnage would drive home the fact that he doesn't feel any remorse for what he did—that he had just done something seriously evil and felt justified by his anger.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Keep in mind, Episodes V and VI are Boba Fett, whereas I and II are Jango Fett.
I entirely love the idea of a scene where Anakin is walking away from a burning village. I think he does a good job later of capturing his anger when he is telling Padme what he did, but I love the image of that scene (the one you described wanting). I can tell you why it wasn't in the movie though. Wouldn't have been PG. Ep. III as PG-13 is risky enough, Lucas didn't want Ep. II to be that dark.
I might agree with that assessment of the Anakin/Obiwan duel. But we'll have to wait and see. I don't have as much of a disdain for CGI as many folks do.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Oh, I love CGI - as long as it blends together with the actors.
My complaint is that it looks like two entirely different things going on - in the trailers, two men battling with all hell breaking loose in the background.
Unfortunately, you could substitute "two men having lunch with all hell breaking loose in the background" and have the same feeling I get from the trailers.
As for not being too dark, then a different "fall from grace" moment should have been used. Finding your mother hanging from a torture rack is not a light-hearted experience and should have been handled accordingly.
In my humble opinion. Even something resembling the carnage at Uncle Owen and Aunt Bea's farm would have been acceptable for providing a sense of relative emotional impact regarding what has been wrought by his hand.
And I'm sorry, but the sob story he tells after the fact sounds more like he lost a favorite toy than just having butchered an entire village.
-Trevor
Edit: Your point regarding the two different Fetts is well made, but still - Jango was flopping around in a decidedly unimpressive manner.
It's possible I'm spoiled by CGI-enhanced fighting and the notion of wire-aided combat, but for as large a budget as Lucas had to waste, I would have liked something that didn't look like it came off the Hercules Blooper Reel.
[ March 30, 2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"Oh, I love CGI - as long as it blends together with the actors."
I can agree with that, and with your complaint. We'll just have to see how it is in the movie. The trailer has it's drawbacks, but it is just a trailer.
"And I'm sorry, but the sob story he tells after the fact sounds more like he lost a favorite toy than just having butchered an entire village."
I don't know what you want from Lucas here. Having never seen my mother hanging from a torture rack, I have no idea what I would do, but when he told Padme what happened it seemed very real to me.
Yeah, Jango disappointed me all around.
"I would have liked something that didn't look like it came off the Hercules Blooper Reel."
Lol, yes, I agree, and nice analogy.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Honestly, I think my gripe comes from the actor choice and not necessarily the scene.
Anakin comes across as a uniformly sulking teenager and honestly, most of the time I'm hoping he gets squashed so the real actors can show up.
I just don't get any kind of feeling from his performance, particularly at this critical and most likely highly emotionally charged moment.
Kinda like how a bad Tarzan makes you root for the crocodiles.
-Trevor
Edit: The other big reason for a backdrop of the burning village? We don't have to depend on Anakin's acting ability to convey the emotional impact.
[ March 30, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Wow, there's nerdity and then theres NERDity. Goooooooly.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Goooooooly, you got 'em!
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I'd like a bit more from Yoda. He is supposed to be this all powerful jedi and we've gotten a total of one fight scene, perhaps more, and a lot of philospy. And the character of Mace Windu seems some what forced. I don't think his character has been developed enough. And also the actor choice for Anakin, I think, was very poor. There are many other young male actors who could portray Anakin much better. And if you couldn't guess I'm now into the complaining mood and I plan to keep it up. Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Yeah. The kid can't act. A two by four with a frowny face on it has more emotion than that guy. And if you wave the two by four around a little bit and make angry noises, it's oscar gold compared to "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."
Ouch. How wince-inducing can you get?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yoda and Mace are secondary characters though.
Considering they aren't main characters I think they get substantial development. And Yoda is also 900 years old at this point, using the force directly is exhausting. I think we get a lot more from both of them in Episode III. But I think we get quite a good dose from them, enough to where we know who they are, and what they stand for.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Like the rest of the theatre, when Yoda pulled his saber, I participated in the collective "ooooooh" reaction.
Unfortunately, a grasshopper on speed just isn't that impressive
-Trevor
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
"I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."
I would point out that that line is lousy writing. I mean really, who could possibally deliver that without sounding stupid?
I liked Hayden on Higher Ground. Of course, he was supposed to be a whiny kid, so I don't know that that helps any.
I still blame Lucas. He can't write and he can't direct. He needs to just stop already.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In my rewrite of the script, I have Anakin and Padme engage in a spirited argument about the merits of deserts as opposed to verdant greenspaces. Anakin defends deserts -- and sand -- to her. Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Yoda isn't 900 years old until the original trilogy isn't he? At least, that is what I was always told. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
When 900 years old you reach, quibble over a few decades you will not.
Posted by Risare (Member # 7668) on :
hahahahahahahaha! heh heh i like that. Seriously, i don't think it really matters how old he is or the names of Chewies numerous relations or what kind of battery the lamp lights of the Falcon take, yah know? Now THAT level of Fandom...is kinda scary...
I'm suprised you know THAT much about Star Wars, and yet LIKE the movies. Seems like you should be crying its doom, Lyrhawn, more so than everyone else.
Edit: Oh hey, another added thought about the sand comment and Ani. Firstly, his "Are you an Angel?" bit wasn't that inspired either. Obviously, like his son, being stuck on such a god forsaken planet didn't give him much practice with wooing the female gender. Which makes me wonder....what DOES she see in him anyway O_o. I mean, one would think she's got plenty of other people to choose from... :: wonders ::
Anyway, one COULD pass it off as Ani doing his best to lead into a romantic...er, line based on something going...on..in....... nah i don't got it. Nevermind.
[ March 31, 2005, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Risare ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:In my rewrite of the script, I have Anakin and Padme engage in a spirited argument about the merits of deserts as opposed to verdant greenspaces. Anakin defends deserts -- and sand -- to her.
I like this. In my experience, growing up in a desert does not make you hate deserts. I'm rather quite fond of it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You know, recently re-watching the original Star Wars, I noticed something. No one is denying that Harrison Ford can act, right? And most of the other actos were no slouches, either. The writing wasn't even that bad. But the direction-- ayeeee. There were so many lines that, reading them, I would have heard differently. I think Lucas is a bad director. It makes me think that perhaps not all of the bad acting in these later movies is all the actors' faults. I think GL, while he can certainly concieve a movie, may not know how to pull it off in a way that jives with what the rest of the human race appreciates.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There's what, 20 years between Episode II and Episode V? Sorry, Yoda 880 years old, my bad.
I thought the Yoda fight scene was awesome. It's the only time I have ever been in a theater where everyone was literally cheering out loud and pumping their fists into the air.
And yeah, I'm a freakishly fanatical fan who knows way too much about Star Wars. I'm the same way about Lord of the Rings, and to a lesser extent about Star Trek. If I were doing the prequels I would have done them differently, as I stated before I would have totally altered the timeline. And with further reflection, I would have preferred someone else write the script and direct the film (you have no idea how much it hurt to type that sentence, I think my fingers are numb).
But, that doesn't mean I'll tear down any of the Star Wars movies. I still love the original three as my favorite movies of all time (well, Monty Python and the Holy Grail probably gives them a run for their money, but, meh). And the prequels weren't that bad, they just got a bad rap, some bad press, and suffered from excessive hype before their release. I believe Episode III can redeem them, and hope that it will. But cry at the doom of Star Wars? Nay. Different movies for a different time.
And I have no idea what kind of lamp lights the Falcon used, but Chewie was married to Mallatobuck, his father was Attichitcuk, sister was Kallabow, son was Lumpawarump (later Lumpawaroo), and his nephew was Lowbacca. Which is to say nothing of his friends and extended family. And no, I don't spend all my time researching this, I've read all the EU books once, and have a sickeningly good trick memory for these things.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Lyrhawn! My long-lost twin!
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
It was so weird, I was at Wal-Mart the other day (which I normally wouldn't do but my husband likes the oil-change there) and I saw the cardboard cut out of Anakin, and I remembered the scene where he makes the emporer lick the big 9-volt under his throne room. And I thought "if they can capture the emotions that come to a head in that scene, they can save this story."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ketchupqueen -
You're a fanatical Star Wars fan too? or something else I mentioned?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The strange retention of Star Wars facts and information completely irrelevant to real life. Yes, I'm a SW freak, though not the freakiest of the freakish.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Just to clarify, I'm not one of the die hards who dress up in costume and attend conventions. Not because I'm too lazy (which is true), but mainly because I think that is just way too far.
I'm strictly a book geek. If it's there to be read, you can guarantee I'll read it (except prequel stuff, I don't read that).
KQ - Have you read the EU books? Have any favorites?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Same here, although in 10th grade I did dress up as an X-wing pilot (scrupulously researched and meticulously constructed home-made costume, of course) for Halloween.
My favorite SW book is I, Jedi. I have a major crush on Corran Horn. I also really enjoy the X-Wing books, and I enjoy bits and pieces of many of the others. (I can recite "The Little Lost Bantha Cub", and have even made up more to complete it, to say it to my daughter, although I'm not, on the whole, a fan of K. J. Anderson's SW books.) I like Zahn's books a lot, although there are parts I'd rather ignore in many of them. I do not like the NJO books, and in fact have not finished that because it got so bad, although I still intend to some day. I kind of make up my own mind about what I will accept as "canon". GL keeps screwing it up, though. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
oh my god, you are my twin. I, Jedi is my absolute favorite Star Wars book, and Corran Horn is my hero! Mike Stackpole is one of my favorite authors, and the X-Wing series is my second favorite.
Zahn has to be my favorite, barely above Stackpole. He is fantastic at creating plot, and weaving multiple plot lines together. Also his characters are so real, and fit perfectly into the Star Wars universe. He is overall a fantastic, and engaging writer. He is writing more books coming later this year/early next year in the series. I believe it is about the Outbound Flight Project and Thrawn. Should be good!
I don't consider the NJO to be canon. Canon for me stops at the Hand of Thrawn duology.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
when you say x-wing series, do you mean the rogue squadron one? I LOVED that!
I really liked the Jedi Academy too, but only because i want to be a Jedi!
The new one witrh the kids is cute, and I think my son would like it. See, when one becomes a mother, books have multiple ways of being measure: I want to read this, I want to read this to my child, My child would love this (whether I'd want him/her to or not)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Yes I mean Rogue Squadron, and later Wraith Squadron under Aaron Allston.
The Jedi Academy Trilogy is iffy for a lot of people. Many feel KJA did a poor job with it. Personally it's not one of my favorites, and I've only read it once, with no intention of going back to it. But I did like the Young Jedi Knight series that he wrote with Rebecca Moesta.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
The Zahn/Thrawn/Outbound book is already out. "Survivor's Quest". Really good.
Unless you mean one that actually takes place during the Outbound mission.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't understand how it's possible to be a fan of the Zahn books -- which I am -- while still drooling over the recent movies, which basically raped them, skinned them alive, and left their steaming corpses to rot in the street. I'm not a stickler for canon, but I was rather surprised to see Lucas trample all over the most popular elements of the SWU.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
you know, Tom, I was thinking about the original SW timeline and it's relation to that of Zahn and prequels (one element in the desecration of Zahn) and realized something.
In the original SW story, the implied lifetime of the empire is about 30 years. I mean think about it. Just from the originals, we know a few things:
The Emperor was still consilidating his power in ANH. He had just disolved the Senate and finally used the military beaurocracy to take direct control of all systems.
Darth Vader had helped him hunt down and exterminate the Jedi, which allowed the emperor the freedom to grow in power, unchallenged in the force. This implies that DV was there with the emperor at the beginning of his take over.
Darth Vader's wife was pregnant and both Kenobi and the Emperor knew the child would be threat. It's hard to imagine the mechanical (pre-battle with Kenobi DV) as having a wife and procreating. Therefore, it must have been before that that DV's wife became pregnent.
Luke/Leia are in their early 20's at most.
Therefore, from the original trilogy, the timeline for the rise of Palpatine is 20-30 years. I personally think GL used Hitler's rise as his model (hence, the direct usage of Chancellor, though, of course, that is not the only indicator). How long did that take?
Or, if you want an empire, how about Augustus. For all his play acting at being "The Pricipate", the first of Rome, rather than king, he did, in fact, exercise kingly authority rather quickly, especially once he had defeated Lepidus, Pompey the younger, and Antonius. So what's that, 30 years?
So it's not wholly out of the realm of possibility.
Zahn did a great job in fleshing this out (and making it more believable) as he did with why the clones were so bad. In my opinion, it is this latter plot idea that is most missing from the prequels. The menace and fear that "mad clones" would generate would be a great deterrent and reason why no one (like the rebellion), after the emperor had risen enough, simply created a new clone army to challenge him.
Am I missing any other Zahn plot elements that GL pissed all over?
But having said that, I still enjoyed the prequels (II much more than I) and think that III will be great. Could have been better but were not the end of civilization.
[ April 01, 2005, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: IanO ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Canon for me stops at the Hand of Thrawn duology.
Gag. The Hand of Thrawn duology was surprisingly bad. I almost have a hard time believing that it was written by the same author as the Thrawn trilogy.
quote:The menace and fear that "mad clones" would generate would be a great deterrent and reason why no one (like the rebellion), after the emperor had risen enough, simply created a new clone army to challenge him.
It could also be an issue of time and money. If it takes ten years to grow a clone army, then you've got to wait a long time before you can challenge the existing regime. I imagine it also costs a considerable amount of money, which the Rebel Alliance might not have had.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Zahn did a great job in fleshing this out (and making it more believable) as he did with why the clones were so bad.
Zahn screws up the timeline of the clone wars very badly. First, he has Vader as part of the scene after the Noghri planet got dumped on, and then he tells us something like 50 years have passed since. This means Luke and Leia were conceived while he was Vader, and well after the Clone wars. This leaped out at me when I read the books the first time.
Dagonee
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Zahn was writing from what LucasFilm gave him, you know.
Which kind of pisses me off, when I think about it.
But I loved the Hand of Thrawn duology. (Canon doesn't stop there for me, though; have you read the new one that takes place before the NJO but after the Hand of Thrawn?)
I really think Zahn and Stackpole have consistently been the best at preserving the "real" SW spirit in the books (and comics, for that matter). While I enjoy some of Barbara Hambly's vampire and wizard books, I think her SW book stunk rotten and needs to be expunged from the universe. And it annoys me that the people writing the Solo kids didn't seem to have a good grasp of what was age-appropriate, even for very gifted kids, nor was their character consistant throughout the series. (Don't get me started on Mara Jade and what writers other than Zahn and Stackpole did to her, although the Corellian Trilogy wasn't bad.) And I hate the whole Black Fleet Crisis series; it didn't make sense to me even before the prequels, and now, well...
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I only read one of Barbara Hambly's (Planet of Twilight), and yes, it was appallingly bad. But Vonda McIntyre's Crystal Star was even worse, I'd say (if that's even possible).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Throw in Children of the Jedi and you've got a trifecta of badness.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I can't imagine how hard it is to write in someone else's universe. I'd hate all the inconsistency, I'd hate creating a character only to watch someone (KJA) butcher them in later books...ugh.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Several people did really well. But really, I don't think Lucasfilm did a very good job choosing people to write in the universe most of the time.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I confess that I have not read this entire thread, but my brother pointed out that teenage Anakin HAD to be whiny in order to father a son as whiny as Luke was in Episode IV.
You know, "But I wanted to go to Tashi Station to pick up some power convertors!"
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Has everyone seen the "Star Wars Gangsta Rap"? There's also a "Remix". I find it absolutely hilarious.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Dag,
That was my point. Zahn actually kind of screwed with the timeline (as much as I love what he did with the SW universe and think he is the current keeper of the SW spirit.) So criticizing GL for messing with Zahn's chronology is actually backwards. The OT's chronology is consistant with that in the prequels, not with that in Zahn's books.
But for some, the Zahn chronology is more realistic (despite my observations regarding Hitler and Augustus) and hence to them, GL is screwing with what worked.
Having said that, Zahn is the SW master. The Last Command was awesome, especially the confrontation at the end with C'Baoth. Truly SW material- similar enough to RoTJ but still unique and powerful.
It would have been nice for GL to throw him a bone and canonize the Thrawn cycle even a little bit, in recognition of what Zahn (in writing those) did for the SW franchise. In the early 90's there was NOTHING new about SW. Nothing at all. GL was working on Young Indiana Jones. That was it. Zahn breathed new life into the franchise and the success of his books led directly to the EU (with the KJA crap, too, it must not be forgotton) and, I think, the first Tie Fighter game. But it would be nice to see a small nod of appreciation in his direction, like maybe the Emperor chosing a child as his accolyte (to be an Emperor's Hand- doesn't have to be Mara), or Garm Bel Iblis as one of the Senators fighting Palpatine's rise to power- just a name drop even- or a reference to clone madness or Mount Tantiss or Thrawn or Noghri or something. Just a bone.
GL'd never be that humble, though. Too bad.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
X-Wing came first, and then TIE Fighter. X-Wing is what got me back into the Star Wars universe, which I had kind of forgotten about for a few years.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Hmm, the original Zahn books came out before X-wing, so I think for me, it was the other way around. Having read some great Star Wars fiction, the X-wing games caught my eye. They still rank as some of my favorite games. Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
One of my friends in college is named Charles Baca, but he goes by Chewie! He liked to hang out with a guy named Hans Solid (so-lee). In another class I knew a guy who brought his two homeschooled twins with him to class (they did their work, didn't bother anyone) His name is Luke, He said he was also a twin and his sister is Leah His daughter is Skye and son is Joaquine (Wha-keen).
This is totally irrelevant, but I thought it was amusing.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:the Zahn chronology is more realistic
Yeah - I never understood that. The Vader siring the children while Vader thing never worked for me.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Presumeably if the Rebel Alliance can muster a fleet the likes of which to give the Empire pause, I would imagine they could find the resources to develop their own clone army - if only because recruiting qualified personnel has to be difficult at the best of times, never mind trying this while "under the gun."
The timing has always been odd to me - if we accept that the Empire is only thirty years old or so, Vader and his cohorts must have been absurdly lucky to be able to purge every last living Jedi, right down to their very memory in the people of the galaxy.
However, I do wonder - if Vader was sent to "bring balance" to the Force and he did so by culling the existing ranks of Light-side Jedi, what happens when his son rebuilds the ranks?
Isn't this just begging for another Vader to manifest and thin the ranks of the Light-side Jedi again?
-Trevor
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
I always thought the way he brought balance was through father Luke, and through Killing the Emporer. I am very possibly way off on that though.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
That is why Zahn's reasoning for why cloning was abandoned is so tempting. They go mad because of the force resonance (though in Zahn's novels, a "stable" clone needed only about a year to grow, versus the 10 in the prequels). Would really go towards making that more believable. After all, you don't throw away a means to create an utterly subserviant and obediant army if there are no real inherent dangers in having them.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Presumeably if the Rebel Alliance can muster a fleet the likes of which to give the Empire pause, I would imagine they could find the resources to develop their own clone army - if only because recruiting qualified personnel has to be difficult at the best of times, never mind trying this while "under the gun."
Yeah, but would they have the money to scrounge together a fleet and create a large clone army? And would they have ten years to wait? Maybe they didn't even have access to Kamino after the Empire took over.
quote:The timing has always been odd to me - if we accept that the Empire is only thirty years old or so, Vader and his cohorts must have been absurdly lucky to be able to purge every last living Jedi, right down to their very memory in the people of the galaxy.
I don't know if he was really able to purge the memory of them from the people—I just don't see the evidence for that in the movies. But if you can paint the Jedi as the enemy, it wouldn't be too hard to wipe them out and make people thankful that they're gone.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote: The Zahn/Thrawn/Outbound book is already out. "Survivor's Quest". Really good.
Unless you mean one that actually takes place during the Outbound mission.
I was referring to the one that actually takes place during the mission. I haven't read Survivor's Quest yet. Don't get around to pleasure reading as much as I'd like, have too many history texts to read for school.
And yeah, Planet of Twilight, Crystal Star, and Children of the Jedi were by far the worst, and biggest mistakes ever committed to paper with the name Star Wars attached to them. Horrible.
I like the HoT Duology. Some of it was a little out there, but I like how he brought the Jorj Cadas line back into play and explained that, and did a lot of nice backstory with Talon Karrde.
Also, as far as resources for the Rebels go. I highly doubt they would have the time or the money to create a serious clone army. The majority of their ships were either extremely old, or were modified Mon Cal starliners outfitted with turbolasers. They never had the money to build things from scratch, and sometimes didn't even have the credits to arm the troops they did have.
Yeah the timeline of the Empire always seemed a little screwy to me. I didn't really question it because it never really seemed like that big of a deal, but it would have been nice if more of that flowed better. And honestly I don't really pay a lot of attention to pre ANH EU. There's so much written in that period, and a lot of it doesn't match up. I don't even bother with it.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Without researching more into the conflicting mythologies of Star Wars, it's harder to answer why the Alliance never explored clones - they might have always been strapped for credits, but the potential returns on a clone production investment is, to me, well worth the sacrifices made elsewhere.
If the technology was "lost" or somehow unavailable, however, that might be more plausible. Which if Palpatine proceeds to obliterate the planet in the middle of 3, I'll believe it.
Most of my comments about the purging of the Jedi comes from background material that may or may not be direct canon, so take them with a slice of lime.
-Trevor
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Children of the Jedi had such promise to - a Jedi playing the role of Bruce Willis in Die Hard. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Ya know, I can't help but think Bruce Willis would have made a fun Jedi.
Michael Ironside, however, would have been a great Jedi.
-Trevor
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The one who wants to eradicate evil and inadvertently turns to the dark side doing it. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
See? See? The potential is there.
-Trevor
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Christopher Walken as the reformed Dark Jedi in the witness protection program.
"What'd you say? That's wrong. You're talking to me all wrong. Do it again, and I'll stab you in the face with a hydrospanner."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I can't see Christopher Walken as anything but that guy on SNL.
"I think, what the Force really needs...is more cowbell."
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Just wanted to say "Star Wars- clone wars" is freaking awesome.
so cool.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
you mean the video game?
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I think that's what those cartoon shorts were called on Cartoon Network, right?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think part of the reasoning behind the RA not using clones is they believed in free will. Brainwashing clones to serve them is so... stormtrooper-ish. They took pride in individuality, even when it created occasional problems in chain of command and such.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I don't think the clones were brainwashed per se - they were just grown with a vaguely sub-par intelligence or a distinct lack of free will.
You know, like Marines.
For me, I suppose it boils down to idealism versus survival and not everyone would make the same choice.
-Trevor
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think it was a matter of money and equipment. Spaarti Cloning Cylinders were impossible to find after the Clone Wars ended. The only ones I've ever read about existing were the ones on Niruan and Mount Tantiss on Wayland.
To clone an army you need a huge facility, they just didn't exist after the Clone Wars. Also, they could never have afforded such an army, they didn't have the money.
Also, I saw the Clone Wars cartoons on Cartoon Network. They were awesome, and just came out on DVD last Tuesday, I want them.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Clone armies yes.
Clone spec ops, much more affordable and a much better return on the investment since the RA couldn't afford to mass produce rank-and-file fodder.
-Trevor
Edit: Take my musings with a grain of salt. I'm a guy who killed a Star Destroyer with a Millenium Falcon-esque tramp freighter in the WEG rpg.
[ April 04, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well for the sake of following this through.
There still were no Spaarti Cloning Cylinders, but let's say they had some sort of series of biolabs set up, and some ethically corrupt Rebel scientists willing to go along with it.
Let's make it a given that they had the money to set all this up as well.
Clones still take a decade or more to mature to anything closely resembling fighting status. That's including flash imprinting and advanced aging. Otherwise clones go crazy when they are "born."
And the resistance that grew into the Rebellion didn't really become an organized group until six years or so before the battle of Yavin, it wouldn't have made a difference, not that they knew that.
But with a decent supply of already trained Rebels, I think they were more concerned with finding weapons for volunteers than with Clones.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I take exception to the notion of ethically corrupt.
-Trevor
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
Lyrhawn: Half of what you're referring to is Extended Universe stuff—not exactly canon, no matter what people think. Also, you're essentially just repeating what I've been saying. (This is Jon Boy.)
Furthermore, it could be that the Rebel Alliance was able to get enough recruits that they didn't need clones. I'd guess that real people make better soldiers than clones; we all know how well those Stormtroopers can aim.
[ April 04, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Sarcasm ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Heh.
-Trevor
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
yeah, the cartoon network stuff. especially Dooku and Palpatines use of Assaj Ventiss to force Anakin the tap into the dark side more. It was really really good. Plus the Jedi (especially Mace) were incredible.
And EU stuff (Zahn's) minimal developing time for clones is 1 year. GL shows 10 years. I suppose it could be argued that technology sped up the process.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: we all know how well those Stormtroopers can aim.
Stormtroopers aren't clones. Just brainwashed and de-personalized.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Which begs the question - at what point in the timeline do the Clone Troopers get phased out and the Stormtroopers get recruited, trained and deployed?
-Trevor
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I consider some of the EU to be canon, but really that's a personal decision. George Lucas and Lucasbooks approved everything written in the offical EU, so the argument could be made that it is all canon, though I don't go that far.
What do you take issue with as for ethics and corruption? You see no issue with cloning someone made for the expressed purpose of dying so you don't have to? They could have just as easily created war droids. Besides, if they acted like the Empire, they would have feared becoming the Empire. Kinda hard to put that on a recruitment poster.
Edit to add: Zahn's lessened incubation time comes from using Ysalimiri around the cloning tanks.
[ April 04, 2005, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Thrawn lessened what Kardde called "one year minimum per clone" to about 3 weeks using, as you said, Ysalimiri. I was saying, though, that it can be argued that what took place in AoTC as 10 years may have later been sped up to that 1 year.
Of course, GL probably hasn't considered at all trying to unify his world with Zahn- with the exception of naming the Republic capitol Coruscant.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Not really Lyr, no - you're talking about living weapons bred and engineered for the express purpose of fighting, killing and dying.
I would object to kidnapping someone, brainwashing them and dropping them into a uniform, but I don't think the two examples are comparable.
The critical difference, for me, involves the prior existence of free will.
In case A, the clone was never an independent, sentient being. He (it) was engineered from the beginning to fulfill a specific role - programmed, trained and honed for one job.
In case B, the creature was not created for the express purpose of fulfilling an explicit duty. The creature developed normally and was free to develop independent through processes, a descision making system and relative autonomy in thought and deed.
-Trevor
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm not so sure.
What's the real difference between someone who has never had free will and someone who loses it?
Neither of them knows what it is, or knows what they are missing.
I think the connection is that both are able to have free will, and to deny a person who is capable of having it is the same thing as taking it away from someone who does have it.
(How did we spiral away from Star Wars into an ethics debate about cloning? Was that my fault?)
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
To move back to Star Wars, when did the Empire move from Cloned soldiers to recruited Storm Troopers?
It seems like there's a bit of a crunch in canon time lines, unless the Empire began recruiting drives to replace gaps in the ranks of the clones with recruited and trained troops.
-Trevor
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Maybe that's something we will see answered in RotS, but I've never heard about the transition, even in EU, anywhere in the EU.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"It seems like there's a bit of a crunch in canon time lines...."
Yes. Lucas screwed the pooch with the timeline for the prequels.
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
May 19th. *twitches with excitement*
Posted by Jonathan K. (Member # 7720) on :
is there a better expression then screwed the pooch? I doubt it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
44 Days 01 Hours 22 Minutes 30 Seconds
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
This post has a few RotS spoilers relevant to why the Rebel Alliance may not have chosen to use clones...
So... Decide if you care enough to spoiled or whatever......
In RotS when Palpatine makes his big move he intiates some sort of biological program within the clones that makes them turn against the Jedi. One minute the clones and Jedi will be fighting against the Separatists droid army, the next minute will have the Jedi defending themselves against both...
The Rebellion might have decided that spending all that money and time creating a clone army or whatever was not worth risking having someone reprogram the clones against them again...
So...
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Pfft. No plotholes in that idea.
-Trevor
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: unless the Empire began recruiting drives to replace gaps in the ranks of the clones with recruited and trained troops.
I believe that while officers were recruited, and some stormtroopers were, many stormtroopers were conscripted. Hence the necessity of brainwashing to ensure loyal troops.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
That's possible - but I enjoyed a Dark Horse comic that followed the career of a Storm Trooper from recruit to boot camp to his untimely demise at the hands of Princess Leia on a Rebel Blockade Runner.
-Trevor
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
From what I've heard, from critics, reviews, and people who have seen the movie, Star Wars III is awesome. So what if I was wrong?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's been a long thread, but I have to say I'm in the Armchair Director's camp on this one.
Personally I think the midicholorians were the most ridiculous, stupid, and counter-thematic device that could've been used. The Jedi went from studious monks who tapped into the Force that 'surrounds us, penetrates us, etc.' by their long study and contemplation to...mutants.
Suddenly, they're bloody X-Men. You, too, could be a Sith or a Jedi, if only your MC count is high enough!
And Anakin's mother still being in slavery. Wtf? First off, it's completely implausible taken on its own. They're Jedi, defenders of peace, justice, and decency, etc., throughout the galaxy. Even though they cannot help all of the slaves, they can at least help the mother of one of the kids who helped save a freaking planet.
Second, having a mother toiling in slavery maybe, just maybe, might be viewed as a detriment to Jedi training. The Council was able to sense his fear and anxiety the first time they ever laid eyes on him, it's pretty damn unlikely they wouldn'tve sensed his constant anxiety and suffering thinking of his mother over the decades.
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quote:It would require immense training for Anakin to be able tp physically move things with the Force. Remember how hard Luke had to concentrate to grab his lightsaber in the Wampa cave in ESB?
Luke also waited until he was much, much older before he attempted any telekinesis than Anakin did. It is also established frequently that Anakin Skywalker is more powerful than Luke-DV never lost to Luke Skywalker, remember.
And even in the world of MC, Anakin had a higher count than Yoda *gasp*!
quote:YOue ever wonder why Obi-Wan was only becoming a Jedi Knight after twenty years of being a Padawan? Its not supposed to be easy.
You ever notice the kids in the Temple performing feats of TK while they were still children?
quote:Darth Maul does not have fun, he gets the job done.
This apprentice of the Sith never even killed anyone who got in his way. He wasn't ruthless, just...dogged in his pursuit.
quote:Darth Maul wouldn't have killed someone indiscriminately.
Well, not 'indiscriminately'. Perhaps he interrogates someone about the boy who just won the Podrace, who happens to be a friend of Anakin's who knows things about strange offworlders who've been hanging around for about as long as he's been missing them. So Maul rips it from his mind (because the guy doesn't want to rat out 'Annie'), and then kills him. We could've ditched the MC or Jar-Jar entirely and gotten that in nicely.
Darth Maul is cool as in eye-candy, cool as in FX. He is a non-entity outside of that.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
First off, in the EU stuff, the Noghri did not say to my knowledge that it was a massive battle between capital ships, like WWII Pacific in space. They mentioned only two capital ships they saw, one of which (the Rebellion's, presumably) was destroyed and thus wrecked Honoghr (sp?) planetary ecology indefinitely.
The Imperial ship could have been tracking the rebel ship, and found and disabled its hyperdrive over the planet, where it would then be easy pickings. It could have been an Interdictor, and the ship's hyperdrive was fine, but it couldn't escape. The Rebel ship was so old, its HD may simply have failed.
Second, there are several reasons the Rebels would not have invested in clone technology. First of all, they're a band of idealists, led by Mon Mothma and Bail Organa and the like. Those are the people who watched their beloved-but-troubled Republic get trashed and turned into the Empire by the Emperor, DV, and a whole lotta clones.
Second, from the EU it does not appear that clones are like nukes-relatively easy to produce once you've got the main ingredient. They're more like Greek Fire-a devastating weapon that people no longer know how to make. Remember how pleased Grand Admiral Thrawn was when he discovered the Spaarti Cylinders? How that-coupled with ysalamiri-was in fact his best discovery in Mt. Tantiss? The Empire's resources at that time weren't as vast as they used to be, but presumably if it was simply a question of money, the Empire would've had them.
Posted by bCurt (Member # 5476) on :
Kinda fun reading this in light of Star Wars VII having now come out with more on the way.
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There's a possibility that I won't even bother seeing the movie in the theater, but I will probably give in and go. No party for it, though.
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