This is topic Good Mother or Good Wife: Do I have to make a choice? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Goody Maker (Member # 7169) on :
 
Good Mother or Good Wife; Do I have to make a choice?

I'm posting under an alias because many of you know my husband and I don't want to bias anyone about him.

The other night, while the family was eating dinner, my eight year old and I were talking about how babies are fed while they're developing in utero. He asked if Adam and Eve had belly buttons. I explained that it depends on a person's beliefs and that some people believe that humans evolved from earlier life forms. These Evolutionists would say that Adam and Eve had belly buttons. Others believe that Adam was created by God, from the earth, fully formed and complete as a man and that Eve was made from one of Adam's bones. These Creationists would say that Adam and Eve didn't have belly buttons.

My husband then laughs and says, "Can you believe what a religious moron Sandy is? You'd think that anyone with a brain would know that evolution is a fact."
He went on to talk about how she was willing to accept all the other natural sciences, but clung to this one fantasy.

My son looked at him and said, "Dad, why would you call Sandy a moron? That's her belief and you're judging her. Calling someone a moron isn't critical thinking, it's judgement. Right, Mom."

I agreed with my son and said that it would have been better for Dad to say that he didn't agree and that he didn't think that her beliefs were consistent, but that it's just his opinion. My husband got angry and said, "I could have said alot of words, but I decided to be efficient. 'Moron' was efficient."

I really want to be a good mom and raise kids that are bright and tolerant and passionate.

I want to be a good wife and not disagree with my husband in front of my kids.

How can I be both?
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
You have a duty to your husband to let him know he's being an ass. We also have the convention of not disagreeing in front of the kids. But which is worse, having a disagreement or your kids seeing your husband mock you?

Our not disagreeing in front of the kids has specifically to do with them asking us permission for something. It doesn't cover us making fun of someone.

Ummm, I'm not sure if I'm reading your post right but it seems that you wanted to be anonymous yet recounted your first name in the post. If that is the case, not disagreeing definitely doesn't cover making fun of you.

Check out the OK, Hatrackers, what do you think thread.

Man, this is really bugging me and I know it's not characteristic of all evolutionists. But he implies you are atavistic while putting down his wife. It's so brutish.

[ January 08, 2005, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
 

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Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
 
'Moron' is an extremely strong word. I used to say it openly about my father, in joking. He always yelled at me when I did it. I have since chosen to remove that word from my common-use vocabulary. In that situation, it was certainly the wrong word to use.
What your son said was incredibly bright and honest. And in my opinion, I believe it would be lying if you were to hide your disagreements from your children. I think it would be better to disagree calmly in the open than to clam it all up and turn it into a larger argument later. The scariest thing I remember from my childhood was when my parents would have a big, yelling argument.

Edit: I think it's also important that you show, in front of your kids, that you don't have to take being called a "moron."

[ January 08, 2005, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: Boris ]
 

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Posted by Goody Maker (Member # 7169) on :
 
I'm sorry to have communicated so poorly.
Sandy is my best friend. The kids know her well and play with her kids.

He wasn't talking about me. That's one of the things that makes this so hard. We have very strong differences of opinion, but we NEVER belittle one another in front of the kids. I feel like I did the right thing, but I also feel like I violated that rule.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
He was being rude. That is setting a bad example for the children. Your son was right to point out just how boorish that behaviour was.
You are not being a bad wife by pointing this out... Being a good wife should not mean agreeing with someone no matter what.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
I'd pretty much say being a good wife precludes agreeing with them no matter what. That's treating them like their opinions don't actually matter.

So are you a strict evolutionist or is this really about your husband calling your friend a moron?

And I don't personally like belly buttons, but that's no reason Adam and Even wouldn't have had them. My belief in God certainly doesn't hinge on it. Maybe they got belly buttons when they ate the fruit.

[ January 08, 2005, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
 

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Posted by Goody Maker (Member # 7169) on :
 
Trisha-
I believe that it isn't really important whether God decided to grow a single cell into to a human being, or decided to throw a full blown human into the scene. God gives life.

My problem isn't so much that he was insulting my friend, my problem is the disrespect and intolerance he was showing. I would have been just as offended if he'd made that remark about a stranger in front of my kids.

He is their biological father, but our marriage is a marriage of absence. I feel like a single parent. He's quite a bit older than I am and has gotten more and more beligerent and intolerant over the last five years. He sees the kids once or twice a week, the rest of the time he spends playing on the computer at work or visiting friends. It's become a reflex to talk about our sons as my kids.
 

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Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
 
You should talk to him, in private.
Try to get the point across that he wasn't being a good example to his and your child. Ask him if he would like to explain that to the child, or if he would rather you explain it, or best of all; both of you explain that it isn't a good thing to call someone a moron for what they believe in.

You are both in this marriage, and you should both bring up the children. He made the rather blunderous mistake, and being the responsible parent should rectify it, but that doesn't mean he has to do it alone.

I'm also betting that if you two discussed things more often, you would find that your relationship would be a closer one.

[ January 08, 2005, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: raventh1 ]
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
Goody Maker, I realize I'm being a bit confrontational in this discussion so I just want to assure you that I do mean to help. But it seems the alienation between the two of you probably is related to your systematic acceptance of whatever he says - in front of the children. Maybe this incident was a way of him acting up to see if you would acknowledge him.

I mean, you both probably set out just wanting harmony. But harmony isn't always being real to people. So is no arguing in front of the children something you think of as your duty or is it something you two agreed to at one point?
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Whether or not they agreed to that, her son turned to her and said "Right mom?" Her son was correct. She can't just shut her son down in order to agree with her husband who is clearly in the wrong.

I think that your marriage should be the #1 concern of your family relationships and I think that supporting one another, especially in front of kids, is even more important. But when one of you is clearly in the wrong and there's a kid standing there wondering what's right and what's wrong, I don't think that lying to the kid just to preserve 'harmony' is the right way to go (in every case.) Kids are smart (and your son sounds like he's really smart) and they'll know what you're up to. It could have the effect of keeping the kids from asking either of you about anything, if you're just going to agree with one another.

I also agree that you should bring this up with your husband in private. He probably did feel attacked and "ganged up on." But he seems like he's a good dad and that he would want his children to learn correct principles...even if it means admitting that he was wrong.

I know that if this becomes frequent, the children may start to disagree with dad on more subjects than they should and look to you to back them up. That is what needs to be avoided. It's delicate I think, but if you and your husband communicate with each other enough when the kids aren't around, you should be able to hold that together.

PS I don't have children, so I could be blowing smoke. But, I have watched this same issue with my parents for many a zillion years. Now that I'm old enough to not be a part of it anymore, I can see it from a different perspective...

PPS The nature of your relationship (him being gone a lot) sounds like the real issue here. If the two of you are not able to communicate about the kids because he's just not a part of things, then that's a huge problem. Again, I speak from adult daughter experience (my dad has reached the irrational stage, I thought of him immediately when you described your husband.)

[ January 08, 2005, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
It sounds like the event itself isn't the really thorny issue, it's what underlies the happening of it. Individual incidents may be handled in a better or worse manner, but they are really just noise in dealing with the fundamental rhythms of a relationships.

[ January 08, 2005, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
 
I think parents only need to present a united front for issues relating directly to the children (e.g. punishments).

Other disagreements are healthy if they are presented in a constructive manner. Conflict resolution is an important skill. How you deal with your husband when you disagree will influence your children for the rest of their lives. If you always back down, your kids will learn the lesson that conflicts are resolved by avoidance and dominance. They may grow up to become pushovers, or worse, overbearing jerks.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I just gotta give all you Hatrack parents a huge hug. I have no idea how to raise kids or be a good mom - my example was less than mediocre - but if/when it ever happens, at least I know I have somewhere to go to get good information, and I so appreciate that!

Yay Hatrackers!
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I agree with Sara (and others): this particular incident is not the real issue. It sounds like you are dealing with a lot of pain and resentment.

Have you considered counseling? A good therapist (get referrals) can be a Godsend.

Good luck!

[ January 10, 2005, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Yeah, I was kinda wondering if this was typical behavior for your husband or if this was one of those weird off moments. But I guess if you're going to post about it, it's probably not just atypical behavior that could be shrugged off.

Talking privately with your husband would be good. And if it's a common occurrance, maybe getting some help to beef up communication skills between you and your husband. (Which is advice I could take myself, since your related exchange isn't unfamiliar.)
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
I gotta say if I had said something like that I would have *expected* a rebuke from Monica, and one of my big issues with her has been her undermining me with the kids.

You are getting good advice here. It was your duty to correct him. it was important that you stand up for your son and his ability to disagree-- and it sounds like he did so respectfully... certainly far more respectfully than your husband. You *do* need to talk in private, and I recommend having a neutral authority as a mediator-- a counselor or pastor you either both trust deeply or both have never met.

Sorry to be redundant but I felt like weighing in.
 

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Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
I'd say you were right to disagree with him, even in front of the kids. Someone should never call their spouse a moron, particularly not in front of children. I think if you had failed to disagree with him (and back up your kid when he thought his father's behavior was incorrect) you would have been doing your children a disservice. Regardless of how personal beliefs differ, children should never have to see their father belittling their mother like that.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
My husband and I belive in being united in front of the kids on issues that affect family life - for instance, if my daughter asks if she can go to a birthday party and I say no, my husband would not then tell her yes, or say in front of her "Gee, you're being too harsh, let her go!"

If it's an issue of discipline, or other family issues, we are a united front, always. If we disagree with what the other said, we tell them so outside the children's hearing. Sometimes we'll call the kids back in and together tell them that something has changed, if one of us convinces the other. But we do it together, as a Mom/Dad unit.

But, on issues of opinion, we're not afraid to disagree in front of our kids. If my husband said he thought a particular movie was stupid, for example (like LOTR) I would not hesitate to speak up in front of the kids and say I thought he was wrong. The issue you described is a bit thorny, because it involves religious beliefs as well. Of course, I believe parents should share religious beliefs, and be united in what doctrines they want their children taught.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think it's never wrong to diagree with your husband in front of your kids. It depends on what the disagreement is about. If it's about a family policy of decision, yes you should be united. If it's just about his opinion of something or someone else, I don't think you have to remain silent.

In this particular case, your son is to be commended for his response. I think you did the right thing by telling him you agreed with him in front of his father.

In a somewhat analogous incident, my husband sometimes brings home what I'd term "firefighter terminology" and uses phrases or terms that we both don't want our kids to use. When he slipped up and used one at the dinner table once, my middle daughter Emily called him out on that. "Daddy, that's not how we should talk about other people!" Now, should I have supported my husband in this and told my daughter that she shouldn't correct her father? Or should I have supported my daughter and in that sense publicly taken a stand against what my husband said?

I supported Emily. I turned to Wes and said "yes, Daddy, we don't use those words, do we?" And he said "you're right, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that."

So in this long, rambling post do I have any real advice for you? Well, it's this - you should speak with your husband in private and tell him that you wanted to show the kids that the type of name calling he exhibited isn't something they should emulate. You want him to be united with you on the goal of raising intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate children. You believe the two of you should always be united in front of the kids on matters that affect the family, and you hope he understands that his getting angry at you didn't help. If he wants you to show him respect in front of the children, you would ask he do the same.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
What does it mean for the marriage to come first? And by the way, I don't think the marriage comes first, I think there are higher principles such as honesty or treating others as you would want to be treated, and other personal ethics which for many of us include God come first. I mean, you wouldn't commit a crime for your husband, so marriage doesn't really come first.

So what I am thinking this means is that where the spouse is right and the child is right, the spouse takes precedence. If the child is right and the spouse is wrong, right takes precedence. You want a child who grows up inculcated with your sense of right, and not a child who will look for a spouse who worships them.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
I think you did the right thing. Firts off, your husband was out of line. PLus it's OK for kids to know parents can disagree about non-family matters (politics, entertainment, etc) and do so respectfully. (let's just say our kids are being exposed to the whole political spectrum). I agree w/what Trisha said about ethics comeing first.
 

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Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
 
The kid's question was all about the issue of how and when it's okay to disagree with someone. I think that should be a perfect opportunity to demonstrate reasonable and compassionate disagreement by disagreeing with your husband in a kinder way than he disagreed with Sandy ...
 

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Posted by Goody Maker (Member # 7169) on :
 
Thanks all.

I need to clear-up some misconceptions which may help you understand why this was such an important crossroads for me.

1- Though my relationship with my husband is strange, it is not estranged. We talk several times a day about everything... except his relationship with the kids. This subject is one that immediately causes a defensive and angry reaction in him.

2- He is away from home for three reasons:

*He is obsessed with world events and has many ongoing dialogues with colleagues. He spends long hours at the office doing research and crafting responses to his friends about everything from Bush economics to stem cell research to market shifts. He does this research while smoking. He can't smoke at home because the kids and I are very allergic to even the littlest bit of cigarette smoke.

*He demands his freedom and to be entertained. He will only come home if the kids or I can promise that we've organized and are willing to do something new and fun. Otherwise, he tells the boys that he'd rather be at work.

*He isn't comfortable around the kids.
When he walks in the door, he wants to turn-off anything they're watching or doing so that he can watch the news. They complain and he gets mad and storms off.
If my husband and the kids play a game as simple as "Go Fish" together, he likes to make up his own rules and demand they play by his rules. Everytime this happens, either the kids refuse to play or he storms off in a huff.
He can't do homework with them or practice sports with them without yelling at them or getting engaged in a clash of wills within 5 minutes.

It hurts me to watch them beat on each other emotionally. It never gets physical. I try to steer through neutral ground, only speaking up when I see something positive. But my husband is going to have to spend some time with these kids before he loses them.

This is the pain and frustration you see in my post. It's the fear that I've learned to be a strong wife and a good mother, but I know I can't be both if I'm forced to take sides. And I want my kids to have a father, and my husband to recognize the miracles that are his children.

My husband's personality has changed alot in the last 5 years. He not only offends the kids, but our friends as well. It's not uncommon for him to make an outburst like the one I mentioned to one of our friends. Privately, I'll apologize to the friend, then tell my husband that he hurt the person's feelings. His response is, "If they can't take a joke, then they need to be less sensitive. They need to learn to make their own happiness."

Many of our friend's are to the point where they only invite the kids and me over if my husband is out of town.

He is more sensitive with the kids, but only seems to be able to overcome his impatience and criticism for very short periods of time. It doesn't seem to be enough for the kids. When my husband offers to coach one of the kids' teams, they say, "No, Dad. If you do, then I won't have fun." Last week, I overheard my eldest tell my husband, "Dad, the only thing wrong with this family is you."

I am crying as I write this because today, my husband told his brother, "My kids hate me. It's okay, though. They'll get it out of the way now, then when they're teenagers, they'll think I'm the greatest."

From everything I've heard about teens, I can't see those years as the best time to begin a parent/child relationship.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Aw honey. (((Goody)))
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I'd been avoiding posting to this thread until now because I really didn't have anything to say that wasn't a "me too" kind of response, and I generally don't like posting those.

It sounds to me from what you've posted, especially your recent update, like Dad might be ADD or obsessive-compulsive. I see a lot of things in your post that remind me of my Missy and of her father - who's been told by three different doctors, two of whom were treating Missy, that he shows strong signs of ADD and bi-polar. Changing rules mid-stream, everything's gotta be *his* way or he's not going to participate, wanting to take complete control of the situation whenever he can.

The sad thing is that your children are not going to wake up one day as teenagers and decide he's the greatest guy ever after dealing with years of neglect and inconsistent behavior from him. They may someday learn to tolerate him as he is, but what Dad's expecting won't come. But until he's willing to recognize it and wants to make a change, there's nothing else you can do in that regard. But I'm sure you already know that.

I do wish I had some solid suggestions for you. (((((GoodyMaker))))))
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that something is missing from this picture. People rarely become as estranged from their family as your husband is without some kind of reason. People are rarely as indifferent, to the point of hostility, to their family as you potray your husband to be without something going on in their lives.

I do sympathize with what is certainly a hard situation, and I hope everything gets better.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I posted last post before having seen Ms. Scrivener's post. I do agree there could be mental health issues of some sort.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Oh boy. Big hugs to you. Realize that anything I say is only my opinion, and I certainly don't know the situation in its entirety.

It isn't that he *will* lose the kids. He probably already has. I sincerely hope that your priorities are in the right place and you are willing to leave your husband and get help if he ever becomes abusive towards the children. They are helpless little people who don't have a choice about the situation they're living in. Note - I wasn't accusing your husband of abuse - it was a "just in case" kind of statement.

Would your husband be open to marital counseling? And if not, how about at least seeking some counseling for yourself? Counseling can be a wonderful tool in order to work through situations and problems like you are facing. You should give yourself a pat on the back. From your son's comments, it sounds as though you're raising some wonderful kids - and that's something to be proud of. I hope everything improves for you, and please remember that we're all here for you.

space opera
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Space, I was highly tempted to post those same two suggestions but was pretty certain that Maker's hubby wouldn't consider #2 and felt that #1 was quite drastic. Even had it all typed out... and then actually re-read my post before clicking Add for a change. Decided it was perhaps too pushy at this time and deleted that part.

And as far as I'm concerned, having been there myself and seeing my children's father do it as well, emotional neglect IS a form of abuse. It's not one that sends kids to the emergency room with acute trauma, but it absolutely builds up over time and seriously damages the victim.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
(((goodymaker)))

I agree that your dh seems to have some mental health issues.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*preface* I don't have children, I'm simply analyzing this with my own logic.

If the eldest is already to the point where he's saying that the problem is his father, then the kids are pretty much already lost to him, unless there is intensive intervention, which he sounds unwilling to do. In that case, you already *are* their only parent and your duty IMO is to them before your husband. Evolutionarily speaking this is nearly always so, except in seahorses.

I don't know much about it, but I know some specific mental/personality disorders are onset later in life sort of like alzheimers but not necessarily that severe. You said it has gotten worse over the last 5 years. Is there anything that could have specifically triggered it 5 years ago? Or were the signs always there on other things, just drastically increasing in severity over the last few years? Is he significantly older than you? What is his family history on stuff like that? Is there anyone in the family but outside of the direct family unit (like grandparents or talking to his brother yourself) that is worried about this alienation or did it to their own children?

I can't help but wonder (and I'm not suggesting doing this but I'd be curious to know the answer)what your oldest would say if you asked him about how he would feel be if you and your husband got a divorce. It sounds like he'd be relieved. Not a good sign by any stretch.

The other posibility that I can think of, is that your husband while not being a perfectionist, likes to be one of "the best" at what ever he does. So if he can't be "the best" he won't do it. It almost sounds like that is his take on parenting. He is definitely behaving more childishly than your children. Which brings me to another point. Your children are having to be the "adults" and he is being the "child". Not necessarily good developmentally for a kid, not being allowed to be a child, though they will survive, I know I did.

I don't know how far the smoking addiction plays into things, but it could be that it is so strong a chemical addiction for him that has completely taken over controlling his life too, which would also explain a lot of the irrational behavior he exhibits. Though once again he'd have to admit he has a problem and want help. It's possible even wearing a nicotine patch so he can have his fix while he is home, would make him otherwise more like a normal human being again.

AJ

[ January 11, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

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emotional neglect IS a form of abuse.

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I agree with this.

I'm sorry for the situation that you are going through. It is one thing to marry someone only having to deal with the weaknesses you already knew were there. It is hard when the person you love and gave your life to changes so drastically for the worse. It is one of the risks we all take when we get married. I'm sure you have learned to become very strong in dealing with this.

I do think that abuse *can* be a good reason to end a marriage. But that is a decision that is very individual and personal in nature.

On a side note, and a disturbing one as well, I heard a tale told of a husband who beat his wife bloody on their wedding night, thus "establishing" the way things were going to be in their marriage. He was following in the footsteps of his own father. Apparently she had no clue what sort of monster she had married.

You just never know.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

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I can't help but wonder (and I'm not suggesting doing this but I'd be curious to know the answer)what your oldest would say if you asked him about how he would feel be if you and your husband got a divorce.

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Let me advise against this, even hypothetically. Speaking as someone who was the elder child in this scenario, it's a great way to instantly destroy any pedestal on which a child may have placed his parents.

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As I said I wasn't suggesting she do it! Maybe I ran away with the hypothetical,

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The other posibility that I can think of, is that your husband while not being a perfectionist, likes to be one of "the best" at what ever he does. So if he can't be "the best" he won't do it. It almost sounds like that is his take on parenting.

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Anybody--mac? CT? Alucard? Theca? know if any studies have been done on the effect that Paxil has on the levels of empathy and compassion in people who take it? I know two people who are on it, and while it has done a great job with taking care of the depression in both people, they seem to have less empathy and compassion than they did before they started taking the medication

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The kids just want their dad to want to spend time with them and to “like” them as they are. As long as my husband’s behavior doesn’t become physical and as long as I continue to see the kids feeling free to stick-up for themselves, I won’t consider divorce.

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My concern is that Dad isn't going to spend time with them and to like them as they are, to use your words, unless he institutes some massive changes in himself. And with actions like distancing himself from everyone when the kids go to you for something and arbitrarily changing rules of games, I don't see that change coming any time soon.

I am glad to see that the kids feel comfortable with sticking up for themselves, but it kind of stinks that they need to feel that way against their own father. He should be someone they can trust and confide in, not someone they have to protect themselves from. Maybe if you can get that across to him, he might wake up enough to see what he's doing to them.

{{{{GM and the kids}}}
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*hugs* Goody Maker. The problem is that problems like these normally don't have single causes. They are complicated. Which makes solving them, if they can be solved even more complicated. And nearly impossible if you don't have someone who is willing to work with you.

If you could some how get it to be a challenge to him to learn how to be a better parent and actually desire to be good at it, then counselling might work. But without that willingness unless you, yourself are willing to use more subliminal psychological manipulation on both your husband and your children (the ethics of which make me squicky because personally I think it can exceed mere 'coping techniques' at times and is actually messing with peoples minds without their permission) you may be stuck at an impasse.

AJ

[ January 12, 2005, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
 
I think it was really important that you a) backed up your son when he was right and b) showed your son that it is not ok to speak that way to your wife.

Not everyone is able to handle having children very well. It might be good to consult a counselor or someone in your place of worship (if you have one) about ways to make the situation better.

It sounds like you are being a great mother and a wife. I think that if push comes to shove it is more important to raise your child to be the thoughtful tolerant person you want him to be then it is to avoid small disagreements between you and your husband. As other people have said, as long as the disagreement is handled civilly and calmly it should not be a problem.

Congratulations on raising such a great son.
 

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Posted by Goody Maker (Member # 7169) on :
 
An update:

About six weeks ago, my husband decided that he was going to be a father/husband and head of the house NOW!

Long undiscussed issues such as why he knew nothing about who I am and who the kids are became the focus of his anger. He became so angry and unpredictable that he would alternately storm around the house all night and burst into the bedrooms at one or two in the morning demanding to know why he didn't know us or why we couldn't read one another's mind anymore.

After getting more and more frightened, and him getting more and more frustrated by my fear, he agreed to start marriage counselling.

We started marriage counselling 2 weeks ago. There was no yelling and few tears.

Basically, he says that he doesn't know how to love because his mother died early; he is much smarter than most of the people around him and everyone should just take his solutions to heart, otherwise he feels the need to "bulldoze" people into accepting his opinions; he doesn't like me and hasn't since our first son was born.

My take is that I am sorry for him because he's missing out on his kids; I have been doing the single parent thing so long that it has become a fortress for me and I'm having a hard time letting down my defenses to let him become a part of my life again; and, though we are polite, I knew that he didn't like me.

I had told the therapist that he didn't like me, and when he confirmed it, she looked at me and said, "You look... relieved."


And I was and am. Fear and then relief. This doesn't sound good to me. Can I bridge the gap between relief at being disliked by my husband and learning to want him in my daily activities again? Can I learn to not want to either crawl away or defend the person he's bullying into his most recent epiphany? I just don't know where to go from here.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
(((hugs))) I have often felt like I don't know how to love, and gotten very angry at everyone. I'm usually very depressed when that happens. If I don't realize that I'm depressed, then it just gets worse until I realize I'm depressed and make an effort not to act that way.

That may be the case with your husband, but I don't think that pointing it out to him is going to help, so all I can do is (((hug))) and *think good thoughts*. And that I will do.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Yeah, I'm with ketchupqueen in that that's also been my experience, except I don't usually get angry, I just get more depressed. But then, from everything I've read, depressin is unexpressed anger turned on oneself instead of others. So, same thing, really.

I wish I had suggestions. Good luck.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I just don't know where to go from here."

I think the question becomes, then, whether your marriage vows are worth risking the happiness of you and your children (given the chance that things do not improve). That's a question that none of us could answer.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Do you think it is beyond trying to regain touch with whatever feelings you two had for each other that led to initial attraction and marriage?

I relate to what you both must be feeling. I always "held myself back" in relationships -- fiercely independent, so I wouldn't open myself emotionally hardly at all. So I understand how your husband feels, but also understand why you would fear letting him be an integral part of your life again.

My hugs and prayers go out to you.

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Do you like him?
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
Welcome back, GoodyMaker.

I would seriously question the reason behind his sudden attitude change here. Somebody or something outside of your circle of influence is pressuring him in some way. My gut feeling from the prior discussions at the beginning of the thread and the current update is that this is a knee-jerk reaction to something said by a coworker or other "friend" rather than a true change of heart.

Based on the comments you make regarding the counseling sessions, I see this going nowhere good. He refuses to accept responsibility for anything that's happened so far. It's not his fault he can't love, his mother died on him. It's not his fault people don't understand him, he's so smart. People should just take all of this into consideration and adapt their relations with him to fit. Because of this, I can't find it in myself to have pity for him. Until he takes ownership of his actions and how they affect everyone else in the family, he's not really looking for a solution. He's looking for someone to blame again, someone to tell him that it's okay that he doesn't like his wife and that he's a jerk to his children.

He admits to the therapist that he doesn't like you and hasn't since your first son was born. That's at least eight years that he's been treating you as if you don't matter. (I didn't look closely enough to see if the 8 year old in the original discussion at dinner was the eldest child) Eight years of deceipt and dishonesty, and you're supposed to say "it's okay honey" just because he suddenly decided he wants to rule the roost? I don't think so.

I couldn't live with someone knowing they didn't like me anymore. I don't have the energy to try and change someone who doesn't want to be changed, nor do I have the emotional strength to combat those negative feelings coming from the other person. That's why, when I was presented with a roughly similar situation, I got my children and I got out. You need to decide for yourself if you can accept having someone who has now publicly admitted to not liking you in your day to day life. And one of the big considerations there needs to be how he feels about the children - more importantly, how do the children feel about him?

If you'd like to talk off-forum, my email is in my profile. I'll help any way that I can (and hopefully won't project too much of my own situation on you, as I think I may have done above...)
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
*points up* Yeah, that. I couldn't live with someone who didn't like me either. Good luck and hugs.

space opera
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
This man sounds a bit like my own father, only out of control.

(((Goody Maker)))
 

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Posted by Goody Maker (Member # 7169) on :
 
And life goes on.

Each marriage counselling session he showed more anger. Because I would get so pale and frightened during his outbursts, the counsellor asks me how I was doing physically. I told her that my heart was racing, I felt nauseous and I was having trouble sleeping at night. She asked me to go in for a physical and my GP said my heart was fine and prescribed Xanax for the anxiety.

After the physical, my husband demanded, in the middle of the office, to know what the doctor had said. I told him.

Sadly, things got much worse after this. He decided that his actions were all completely justified and that my reactions were a sympton of paranoia/anxiety.

At the end of June, he burst into the house at 3AM and announces to me, "I've had this much marijuana, it acts like truth serum. Ask me anything." I declined because he didn't act like someone on pot, he acted manic and aggressive.


On July 6th, he grabbed my hand and said, "You don't need to be afraid. I'm this close to believing I'm a homosexual and incest is illegal."

On July 7-8, he finds grilled chicken that has been sitting in the back of his car since July 4th, eats it and gets at least one other person to eat it, then sits it on a chair in the sun and forbids anyone to throw it away because he's going to eat the rest later.

July 11th, I ask him in marriage couselling to explain what he meant by his statement of July 6th. He said that all homosexuals are trying to convince others to "switch sides" and that he was unbelievable attracted to a girl who was young enough to be his daughter. He then went on to describe to girl's various body parts in graphic detail and with sound effects. The marriage counsellor was offended and asked him to stop because she said he was being disrespectful to me, he began choking himself, turning white, then red, then purple, then black and spitting out the words, "DO YOU WANT ME TO CHOKE MYSELF? DO YOU WANT ME TO LIE? I'M ONLY SPEAKING THE TRUTH!"

July 16th, he accuses my brothers of doing drugs, lifts our 9 year old son off the ground by his shirt and bumps his head against the car. I didn't see this, but when they got home my son was silent and went right to sleep, my husband told me that our son was disrespectful and he is "good" with how he handled the situation.

July 17th, he kicks my brother out of our house, fires him, and tells the kids that there Uncle that has lived with us since before they were born, has decided to move out. He then starts crying and saying that he loves their Uncle and is so sorry that he has to leave, but that it's their Uncle's decision.

He annouced that he had a meeting at Starbucks at 8PM. As soon as he left for the meeting, I packed-up the kids and took them to a hotel. I called him to let him know that we were safe, but that we would not return home until he moved out.

July 18th, I met him at marriage counselling and he verified what he had done to our son, he said that he was "good" with the way he had handled it and that the kids needed to come home and I if I didn't feel safe, I was welcome to move out and visit the kids on occasion.

I filed for legal separation on July 18th.

Through all of this, I can definitely say that I didn't "like him" but I did feel compassion for him. He seemed so broken, lost and without a strong sense of self, despite his need to utterly dominate us. Despite my compassion, I believed that my first responsibility was to my kids. I kept remembering Slash's story about his mom and dad pretending to move away while he was locked in his room and I vowed that I'd never allow my husband cow me to the point that I wouldn't stand-up for the kids' physical and emotional well-being.

Two weeks ago, my 6 year old said, "I know why my Uncle left. I got too excited when he came home and sometimes I'd wake him up to play. He left because I was too annoying."

I told my son that his Uncle didn't choose to leave, that dad had kicked his Uncle out and that noone would "choose" to leave him. My baby taking responsibilty for my husband's action has crushed the compassion I had for my husband. Yes, he suffers from abandonment issue, but that doesn't give him the right to inflict those same scars on his children.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Oh, Goody.



((((Goody))))

I think you have definately done the right thing, both for you and your children.

It sounds like your husband has some major issues, and nothing to do with you.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do for you.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
(((Goody Maker)))

That must have been a very tough decision for you. I belive you did make the right choice given your difficult circumstances. Your first responsibility is the physical and emotional well-being of your children.

With additional counseling your husband may come to realize that this separation is the best decision for all parties involved. After all, it is a good idea to take the kids away now before your husband did anything that would push them away forever.

Best of luck and please let us know if you need anything.
 

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Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
 
(((hugs)))
I think you made the best decision possible for you and your children.
Best of luck.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Oh, honey! I had an inkling from some of your posts that things were not good. But not that they were this bad!

Good for you for getting your kids and yourself away from him. *hug*
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Oh, I'm so sorry.

Thank you for being strong for your children. Too many mothers aren't.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
You made the right choice. And your husband sounds as if he is seriously suffering from a mental illness. While I have compassion for the ill, I have more compassion for you in your situation. Be safe, make sure the kids are safe, and continue with all the steps necessary to move past this horror.

I wish you strength for the journey ahead.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Yup, I agree. Good luck, and I'm sorry you're in this situation.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Goody, if you want to talk, you're welcome to email me. bamawards AT alltel.net

We went through something that was somewhat similar with my stepfather. My mom, after years of trying to make the marriage work left him, and it was a very hard decision because we all felt he was mentally ill but all efforts to get him help were unsuccessful. Finally my mom had to look after herself - actually my brother's wife and I forced the decision when we told him and my mother we couldn't bring the children over to their house anymore, because we didn't feel like they could be safe there. Also, he lost his job, just once in a long pattern of being unable to keep jobs, and my husband gave him one with our company.

He told my husband what bills were paid, even gave him check numbers, and my husband had no reason to think he wasn't making the bill payments he said he was. Until the suppliers contacted him to tell him he was sixty days behind on his bills, and we found out my stepdad had been writing checks to himself and for cash and taking money from the company account. When we confronted him he denied it, said he cashed the checks because I asked him to and I took the money, claimed he had to drive a lot for the company and needed over $300 a month for gas (his duties for my husband only required him to have to leave the house to check the mail at the PO Box in a post office less than 3 miles from his house - we offered to reimburse gas, but $300 was a bit excessive) and the list went on and on of things he did that basically financially ruined us for a time. We tried to get some relief through the bank for signatures that were forged but they said we'd have to have him arrested, and we wouldn't do that. He tried to get his dog to bite my niece (she was four at the time) to "teach her a lesson." The child's crime was trying to sit on the sofa, where the dog was sleeping. He screamed and ranted that is was the dog's house, not hers, and if the dog would bite the child, then maybe she'd remember that. And the list goes on and on of things that sound very much like what you posted above.

I don't say this to try and hijack the thread or to garner any sympathy, I just wanted you to know that I'd been in a situation where someone I loved dearly was acting as if they were mentally ill and we finally had no choice but to sever the relationship. It's probably the most difficult thing I've ever been forced to do, but I am confident all of us involved did the right thing, and my mom is confident too. So, again I'd be happy to talk if you want. I do understand a bit of what you're going through, though I recognize you are married to and lived with and have children with this man, whereas which makes what you're dealing with probably even tougher than my situation.

I feel for you, and I'll pray for you. Best of luck.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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The marriage counsellor was offended and asked him to stop because she said he was being disrespectful to me, he began choking himself, turning white, then red, then purple, then black and spitting out the words, "DO YOU WANT ME TO CHOKE MYSELF? DO YOU WANT ME TO LIE? I'M ONLY SPEAKING THE TRUTH!"

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Is your marriage counselor a licensed therapist? If so, I'm amazed your husband has not already been forced into treatment. Based on this episode, he's clearly a danger to himself.

As a side note, I would immediately begin proceedings to prevent him from seeing your children -- ever -- in any unsupervised environment. His "homosexuality/incest" bit is very, very disturbing, not least because he appears to have conflated both those conditions with aspects of his own paranoia.
 

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Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
 
Oh, dear, Goody I'm so sorry to hear about this situation. But you absolutely did the right thing. I hope things work out all right for you and your children. *hugs*
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
*hugs*

Any support I can give is yours. I am so sorry you have to go through this, and have no doubt you did the right thing. I'm impressed with how you're handling it and yourself.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
I admire your strength and courage... good luck.
 

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Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
 
Ditto what Tom said. I've seen a situation pretty similar to this, and it turned out the guy was overdosing on prescription meds and had to go in for detox. (Xanax derivative among them - did you count your Xanaxes?)

In the meantime, you've really done the right thing by protecting your kids. Hope it's the smoothest possible road from here.
 

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Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
 
Good luck. It sounds like you are doing a good job of keeping your kids safe. Keep it up.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
I am so sorry...I truly feel you did the right thing, and I agree with not allowing any unsupervised visitation. he sounds like a molester waiting to happen. Let us know how we can help.
 

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Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
 
(((GoodyMaker))) You absolutely did the right thing though I know it is hard. May God bless you and open the path for you to safety and peace. Your children have a good mother.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
I am completely stunned here, Goody Maker.

Personally it sounds like the man is on some sort of mind altering chemical, and it doesn't sound like marijuana. It DOES sound a bit like crack cocaine from the little bit of experience I've had with a crack user.

I'm proud of you for getting yourself and your children out of that house and for filing for the separation. That incident with the 9 year old is excessive force and probably would be considered abuse if it were to be reported to Child Services. And he thinks he handled it well? {shudder}

The homosexuality/incest comment and the younger girl comment also both have me seriously concerned - enough so that I would be trying to have conversations with mothers of any girls that are in the approximate age range and within his potential sphere of contact. I can only hope that's the drugs talking and not something he's acted upon.

You continue to be in my thoughts. If there's anything I can do to help, please please let me know.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
I am so, so very glad you left. Halfway through the post I was thinking, "Oh my gosh! Why hasn't she left!" and then was relieved to read that you had. Take Tom's advice re supervised visitation IMMEDIATELY. Your husband is mentally ill, and could be a danger to your children. Until he is in some sort of treatment program I would not trust him to spend any sort of time alone with your children.

Stay strong, and know that you've done the right thing. We're all here for you whenever you need us. Just because you've left doesn't mean that the pain is over, but I'm very proud of you for not only protecting your children but also removing yourself from a potentially dangerous situation. Are you seeing a therapist on your own?

space opera
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
((((Goody Maker))))



I wish I could think of anything useful to say.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Space Opera:
I am so, so very glad you left. Halfway through the post I was thinking, "Oh my gosh! Why hasn't she left!" and then was relieved to read that you had. Take Tom's advice re supervised visitation IMMEDIATELY. Your husband is mentally ill, and could be a danger to your children. Until he is in some sort of treatment program I would not trust him to spend any sort of time alone with your children.

Stay strong, and know that you've done the right thing. We're all here for you whenever you need us. Just because you've left doesn't mean that the pain is over, but I'm very proud of you for not only protecting your children but also removing yourself from a potentially dangerous situation. Are you seeing a therapist on your own?

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Exactly. Word-for-word, what Space Opera said.

Goody Maker, if you've been around Hatrack for awhile, you'll probably know me. If I have any sway or status at all in your eyes, let me use it to get this clear to you:

You did the right thing by leaving with the children. You are doing the right thing by staying away. He is almost doubtlessly mentally ill, whether from a pre-existing condition or as a complication of substance abuse, maybe both.

Stay safe. This is a very dangerous time for you and your kids. It will get better, but you are entirely correct to take this very very seriously. And you have been in an abusive situation for a long while, so abuse will feel natural to you for a long while, even when your head may be able to figure otherwise. That is, it isn't a good time to start any new relationships, even just new friends, unless they are professional relationships with people who are helping you.

My email is in my profile. If you are in trouble or there is anything I can do, let me know. Even if it's just that you need someone to try to make phone calls and pull strings. Sometimes I can do that.

You'll be at the front of my thoughts.
 

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Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
 
You sound like you're handling this really well. My heart goes out to you and your children.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I agree with what CT and Space Opera said.

Stay strong, and good luck.
 

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