Nope, not an Onanism thread. You were wishing, weren't you.
I've arrived at (returned to?) a state of being where I am unable to trust any new members -- to believe that they are being honest about who they really are (or, more to the point, who else they really are). Whether it is a rotten apple or two spoiling the whole barrel or whether the whole barrel is rotten, I don't know. For all I know the apples are all fine and I just need to clean the bucket.
Nonetheless, for those of you new members who deserve the benefit of the doubt and won't be getting it from me, at least on the inside, you have my sincere apologies. I'll refrain from further comment, and I'll see what I can do about returning to that state of trust as a default. And even if my thoughts don't reflect that trust, I'll work to ensure that my actions do.
Those of you who take advantage of that trust are schmucks.
--Pop
[Edit -- Whoops. * -- you know who.]
[ January 11, 2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Papa Moose ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I hear you Pop....
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Pop, it's not just you. I realize I'm not far off from a newbie by any standards, but we seem to have a rush of posters recently registered with the exact same agenda. I don't find it funny, and truly wish the person behind it would just leave the board.
space opera
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I know just whatcha mean.
Remember when new memberships were halted for like two or three months?
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Wow, that really happened? Does it have to do with the /. thing?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Perhaps with the recent slashdotting, it would be good to do so again.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yeah, I think that we have /. to thank for this.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Idiots? On /.? Say it ain't so!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Yeah, Trish. That's why Bob_The_Lawyer is Bob_The_Lawyer instead of, say SoAndSo_The_Chemist, or whatever it is he does anyway . . .
We would let in new members whom we had screened by giving them our throwaway names.
[ January 11, 2005, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hmm. I've been pretty convinced that it's a single person working to just be a pain in the rear.
Would the thingy at /. have prompted this kind of stuff on this particular board? Are the same new posters showing up on the OSC discussion side as well?
space opera
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Of course (EDIT, still talking to Pooka), when they did that, it was because of spammers, not just run-of-the mill idiots.
[ January 11, 2005, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Pascal's Lager would have to be a very very special poster.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Hehe!
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Space Opera- see for yourself. (short answer, yes- that side is more active than it has been in my 18 months here.)
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Too right, pooka (or am I supposed to call you Trisha?).
space opera
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
/.?
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
I don't spaz out if people call me pooka. I still have a hotmail and a LiveJournal with that name. But I prefer Trisha. Though going through a period where we all call each other by real/old names always confuses the crap out of newbies. Maybe they don't care if they aren't really trying to get into things, though.
I have to say, I think Strawcatz is not a slashdotter, at least not of the sort. He had a bit of a faux pas with his first post, but I think he may have been assimilated.
:tents fingers: Exxxcellent.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Yeah, I figured they were all different people, and mainly due to slashdot.
Some of the new newbies are great, though. I vote we keep them all and try to tame them. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Slashdot is a site with "News for Nerds", and is a pretty heavily traffiked web site. Slashdot is well known for the slashdot effect and for having a lot of trolls in its forums. Slashdot linked to hatrack the other day regarding that new Alvin Maker MMORPG that is being developed.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I don't spaz out if people call me pooka.
It took a full week of me calling her pooka after she changed her name before she came down on me. Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Has that been the cause of the mid-morning overloads? They haven't been like traditional freezes where the oldest thread get dropped.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I have had fun singing "It's Not Easy Being Green", though.
I realize I'm pretty much a newbie, but I'm not a slashdotter, and I'm real. So there. Posted by Draetakenna (Member # 4609) on :
I'm not a newbie. See? I've been around since 2003! <points to registration date>
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
My theory is that they were deleting some posts by certain trolls.
Nobody's talking about you kq. You've been here since September and you have nearly a thousand posts.
So there.
[ January 11, 2005, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by NinjaBirdman (Member # 7114) on :
Well some of us noobs aren't from /.(me! ). I've been stopping by these forums every now and again for the past few months, but only recently decided to register and post during my last read through of the Ender/Bean books. Now I'm reading the Alvin Maker books thanks to Hatrack( ) and I'll probably be sticking around. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Pooka, I'll start calling you Trisha then.
You know, I recently realized that I'm suspicious of all newbies. *narrows eyes* Thank goodness Hatrack is full of all sorts of people. I never welcome people when I see a new name, and I never post in introduction threads. I guess it's not really suspicion, just a lack of friendliness which I try to tell myself is shyness.
Yep - that's me. Unfriendly, suspicious, mean old me.
space opera
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm such a hypocrite. I rarely (except to flame sometimes) address newbies, even though I really appreciated pooka's friendliness when I finally crawled out of the other side of the forum.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Nobody's talking about you kq. You've been here since September and you have nearly a thousand posts.
So there.
That's kind of scary, isn't it? I mean, I just kind of jumped right in... That's something like an average of 3,000 posts a month! Or 750 a week! Yikes!
And I've already met more people from this forum than any other I've ever been on.
Wow.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I can sorta vouch for NinjaBird, if that helps at all. He met me in partypoker.com last night, and he seemed pretty cool, even if he DID beat me.
Nothing is sure, but he seems OK...
Then again you dummies thought I was Otaku for a good 3 months, and I almost left for good because of e-mails and people just being asses to me, so me careful how you react...not every nOOb is an idiot, although we do seem to more than our fair share recently.
Kwea
[ January 11, 2005, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
shrugs, as a newbie I can say I'm not offended by your desire to be careful of who you trust. In the years I have been online, I have seen quite a lot of the darker side of people's online behavior...so I'm not surprised that many are nervous around new people.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Also, we all have a different idea what a nOOb is...for instance I didn't consider SO one until she just said so...
And Lupus, you have been here since May, right? That is not a noob, not to me. I haven't seen a ton of posts from you, but I recognize your name...
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Kwea, I'm actually "not far off a newbie." It's a special title created just for me. Consider it as though I've been around long enough to know people, but I'm still new enough to be refreshing.
space opera
Posted by NinjaBirdman (Member # 7114) on :
Wow, this forum is so much different then any other forum I've been to. At other forums I go to having 1000+ posts(or even 500+) would mean your not a noob. I guess this forum is a bit more active though, and the other forum I visit is a gaming forum so we kind of get to know each other by playing together, so I guess it makes sense.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
n00b status is generally based on your date of registration, not how many posts you've made. Mostly, I think, because there is so much history, so many inside jokes, and a lot of people to familiarize yourself with. Post count just doesn't give you as much exposure to these things as time does.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Darn!
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
You're pushing on two years, woman. Stop being so insecure.
edit: Spelling - not just for breakfast anymore.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm not insecure. I just want my obscene post count to be good for something. (Other than proving that I have no life, I mean.)
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Oh, yes. Ubiquity is VERY handy in establishing yourself as a 'racker. Neh? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That, or some sort of trademark.
And you got most of the good ones. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That post count *is* obscene.
*shields eyes*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Actually, the most obscene post count would be very low...
I can't believe I'm posting this...
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote:I just want my obscene post count to be good for something.
Obscene Post Counts are good for "size doesn't matter" double-entendres.
And I've heard they go great in potato salad.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by signal (Member # 6828) on :
If status was determined by post count, I'd be an uber-noob. I'm not an uber-noob though. Posted by reader (Member # 3888) on :
And then there are the lurkers, such as myself. I've been around since 2002 so I can't be called a Newbie, but currently I have only 131 posts.
My posts aren't spread out quite as thinly as someone might think, though, because I tend to go through spurts of posting, and then months and months without.
[ January 11, 2005, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: reader ]
Posted by BotaLadyG (Member # 7053) on :
I know that I am a nOOb and all but I had hoped to get to know a few of the folks on here...I only found out about the site after reading the Alvin series, and wanted to check it out...Now I am worried that someone may not be willing to talk to me because of my nOObiness..
Honestly I am a 29 year old woman, married with 2 kids a girl 7 named Mackenzie and a boy 1 named Wyatt, I live in Ohio (Toledo area) My Husband is a Huge computer gaming nerd and we are (with some friends) the founders of an online gaming team called Teambota ...I hope to atleast try to get acquainted with a few of you...
Nicole
[ January 11, 2005, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: BotaLadyG ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:My posts aren't spread out quite as thinly as someone might think, though, because I tend to go through spurts of posting, and then months and months without.
How do you do that?
No, really.
I think I have an addiction.
[ January 11, 2005, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Bota, don't worry that people won't talk to you! It's only when new people come here and post inane or inflammatory things that they get ignored or laughed at. We've had enough people come here and do that that we're a little suspicious of new people. However, we're quick to welcome those who are willing to conform to community standards (which aren't that harsh, just things like politeness, a willingness to listen, and an attempt at reasonably good spelling and grammar--and we cut non-native English speakers a lot of slack on this). From what I've seen so far, I'm sure you won't have any problems at all. Check out some of the FAQ threads around here, but don't be afraid to jump right in! Welcome to Hatrack!
P.S. If you're into gaming, you could always start a thread on that topic. There are plenty of other gamers here, and it might be a good way to get to know some people.
[ January 11, 2005, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Shigosei ]
Posted by BotaLadyG (Member # 7053) on :
Thanks Shigosei.... I am usually pretty good with the grammar and spelling (my husband calls me his personal dictionary and thesarus) "honey how do you spell this and that?" lol
Also I am hoping that by posting a link to our site that some may visit me on my "home turf" so to speak... Posted by reader (Member # 3888) on :
quote:How do you do that?
No, really.
I think I have an addiction.
There have been long stretches of time when I didn't post at all and yet still visisted Hatrack with some fair amount of regularity.
I'm like that in RL too, interestingly. Generally, I'm more of a listener, and don't feel the need to always inject my two cents - but every once in a while, when the topic shifts to something I'm interested in, I'll suddenly jump into (and try to monopolize) the conversation.
Also, I'm not a fluff-thread type of person, and I even though I read them, I don't post on the personal-stuff threads, and I've long ago been discouraged from posting on the religion/politics threads because the fact is that I'm just not going to convince anyone of my POV, so why bother? It's a bit of an apathetic attitude, I know, but I'm so, so busy now that spending the time it would take to write up a really thoughtful reply to a debate thread would seem like a waste of time. And to top it all off, I am very, very reluctant to reveal any information at all about my real life, which creates a very significant barrier here at hatrack.
Plus, this is not the only forum I post on. My other online presence is much more active.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
quote: I'm still new enough to be refreshing. --Space Opera
It's times like these I miss Slash most.
*sniffle*
*drinks SO and agrees that she is, indeed, refreshing*
*burninates her inexpertly*
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
It's not just /., ever since OSC was announced as the writer on Ultimate Iron Man I've seen his name popping up on all kinds of comics forums. Generally the things associated with him most are 1) Ender's Game and 2) his column on homosexuality, which kicks off a long and often abusive thread about whether or not people want to read his comics if they don't agree with his philosophies.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
And back to the old issue, which Papa Moose stated (and subsequent posts):
Am I regarded as a newbie? 400+ Posts and 3 months online, yet causing some occasional roughness in the forum's steaminfg flow of intelligence... Abrasive, yet commonly accepted as one of the outer Hatrack circle; how am I classified?
I Hope noone dispises me here. If so, I'll give you the Russel Meta-Paradox of apologies!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You're still a newbie, Jon. But we know you aren't Bean Counter, so that's okay. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
jh, you're also half real, which counts for something.
(I'm in the same catagory as space opera, n00b wise, I think we have similar join dates)
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think hatrack should randomly shut down registration for a couple months every once in a while. I loved it because even after registration was up again we mostly got people who'd been waiting for a while to join. Trolls don't normally have that much patience. (I'm not trying to be hateful towards newbies. I like quite a lot of you, I just wish there was some way of screening the bad newbies out and keeping the good ones.)
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote: And Lupus, you have been here since May, right? That is not a noob, not to me. I haven't seen a ton of posts from you, but I recognize your name
I guess I just figured that I hadn't been here for a year yet...so I was still thought of as new. Good to see I am recognisable though. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think the *good* newbies think of themselves as new long after they actually are. Lol, I still think of myself as a newbie at times, and I really don't qualify anymore I don't think.
AJ
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: We would let in new members whom we had screened by giving them our throwaway names.
Really? It all makes sense now!
I always thought the rule was you are a newbie until you stop feeling like a newbie. If rivka feels like a newbie, I feel justified in my own insecurity- it's hard to feel totally 'old' when there are people so much 'older' than you .
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah Teshi, that's the way I think of it too. Although I have to say that there are some people, like Farmgirl and sndrake that never seemed like newbies at all. They just kind of burst onto the hatrack scene fully formed, if you know what I mean.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Farmgirl seemed like an old hand when I arrived 2 months later, one of those impossibly cool people who were "in."
So did rivka, and she's only ~6 months older than me here.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Like Athena from the head of Zeus. I stopped considering myself a newbie when I stopped griping about people not replying to my threads and started replying to theirs.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Exactly Trisha!
I have no idea when I stopped feeling like a noob.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think a Hatrack user logon should be like G-mail; only by invitation.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Hm...maybe it was when the 9/11 attacks occurred. I had sworn off Hatrack at that point, and hadn't been on for about 4 months. I had no real intention of coming back. When the attacks were happening, though, my first thought was to make sure that the people I knew here were all okay (I knew that my friends and family in real life were okay).
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: They just kind of burst onto the hatrack scene fully formed, if you know what I mean.
Oh, I know .
Sometimes I have to check registration dates to remind myself they're newer than I am!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: I think a Hatrack user logon should be like G-mail; only by invitation.
That's just silly. Most people came here because they were fans of OSC, not because they were fans of hatrackers.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Admittedly, I tend to ignore most newbies until they give me a reason not to. It mostly comes down to stuff like posting "42" whenever a speculative question is raised, and other things done absolutely to death that they could have no knowledge of. Hatrack is all new to them, and expecting them to immediately assimilate a long-standing history is entirely unfair. So, instead of being snarky and impatient, I'm just indifferent.
Then I remember how assertively nice people were to me when I was a newbie, and then I feel guilt. ::wrinkles nose::
Ultimately, I really like newbies. I mean, they do add a new spice to the stew and even if it isn't always to my taste, at least it's different. And then every once in a while a newbie comes along that I feel a particular kinship with and I start to wonder how Hatrack ever did without them. Like Dagonee and ElJay, who make me wonder if they've been here forever and I just forgot. Or something.
And to be completely honest, the times when newbies are jerk-offs and I feel totally justified in being snarky are beautiful moments. I used to be snarky because I felt vicious protective of the 'rack, but now I just do it because it makes me feel warm and squishy inside.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: It mostly comes down to stuff like posting "42" whenever a speculative question is raised
<--- is a culprit of this. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Just what we need-- Ralphie McSquishy.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: <--- is a culprit of this.
The only way to know that it's a 'rookie mistake' is to have been lurking for three years+ and read the thread that dubbed it as such. And it's not a 'mistake', it's just tired, which is a very different thing.
That was the only one I could think of off the cuff, but there are others. I think sometimes newbies wonder if people have even noticed that they just now made a kickin' reference, because frequently oversaturated references just get shrugged off. But people stay, find their own voice and rely less on references and more on original banter.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
And when all else fails, we can make boob references.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
EXACTLY.
Scott - go do that thing with the coding and the mozilla and make my name orange and flashing, already.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
You know, I've been dying for 5 years to ask, Ralphie... Is that Star Wars kid REALLY going to play Ender?
-Bok
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I would totally ignore you, Bok, but I know where I can find pics of you hot and dripping with sweat. So...
I'm not sure. What about that kid from the Sixth Sense? He would RAWK!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
No way! Anakin could kick his butt!
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: So did rivka, and she's only ~6 months older than me here.
I've always thought rivka was the Hatrack matriarch, and never realized she was only here a handful of months before me...
FG
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I hate the idea of invites. Think how many great people we wouldn't know if this place were invite only.
I think that I'm fairly welcoming to newbies. I don't go out of my way to welcome all of them, but if I see somebody new who comes across as either really promising or a little bit lost, I make a point of talking to them a bit. Newbies are our lifeblood--without them we'd stagnate more quickly than you might think. I remember feeling that that was happening during the several months that registration was closed. Even people like Bean Counter, whose purpose seems to be to plump up their own egos at the forum's expense by playing juvenile "look at me I'm so clever" have their place in the forum's overall ecology, I think.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:No way! Anakin could kick his butt!
n00bs.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: Even people like Bean Counter, whose purpose seems to be to plump up their own egos at the forum's expense by playing juvenile "look at me I'm so clever" have their place in the forum's overall ecology, I think.
What's that expression? You've got to take the sand with the sandwiches? ants with the picnic? something like that.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I don't agree that they have 'their place', as in a rightful place in the community. But short of shooting them all you can do is ignore them and hope they go away.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Ignored me for too long, you have.
Plus I know where to get pictures of your rack...
-Bok
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Even people like Bean Counter, whose purpose seems to be to plump up their own egos at the forum's expense by playing juvenile "look at me I'm so clever" have their place in the forum's overall ecology, I think
It's like minor exposure to a disease that builds herd resistance for when the European settlers show up offshore.
Dagonee
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Scott - go do that thing with the coding and the mozilla and make my name orange and flashing, already.
Why?
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
quote:Then I remember how assertively nice people were to me when I was a newbie, and then I feel guilt. ::wrinkles nose::
"Well, that's because you've got big jugs.
"I mean, your boobs are huge..."
Posted by Saint_11 (Member # 7232) on :
im a new member but i dont spam or anything, my friend told me about this after i introduced these books to them and he read the whole series. i love these books, but i dont know what the /. thing is would someone please explain it? Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:"Well, that's because you've got big jugs.
"I mean, your boobs are huge..."
True. But they didn't know that at the time, and it was Ophelia who was nicest, so...
quote:Why?
Cause. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Ignored me for too long, you have.
Plus I know where to get pictures of your rack...
Ignored YOU? I'VE ignored YOU?
You didn't even want to talk to me on the phone, and had to be persuaded though it was long-distance. I think we know who the wounded party is, here.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Cause.
That isn't a good reason. That's not even a very good sentence. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
No, a good sentence is 25 to life.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yeah, everyone else in the room. Look, I couldn't let the Ralphie-luv thang get out, so I had to play cool. Too coo for school. If you want to hang that over my head over a year later, I mean rilly.
Plus a Hatracker's mother was in the room, I could hardly say what I _wanted_ to say. Sheesh, have you no sense of propriety??
-Bok
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:That isn't a good reason. That's not even a very good sentence.
Oh, I get it. You already have. In that case, good boy.
quote:If you want to hang that over my head over a year later, I mean rilly.
Oh, no. Not simply one year later. Forever, my friend. Until the oceans dry up, the mountains crumble and you stop being all whiny all the time.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Dag, not if you are the defendant.
-Bok
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
In Texas and Virginia, that's a great sentence if you're the defendant. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Oh, I get it. You already have. In that case, good boy.
Actually, no. I'll tell you what I've done-- I've recoded my Mozilla so that when I feel that I've felt enough pity for one day, I press a button and POOF!
All your posts disappear. And I am free to roam Hatrack, pity-free.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
quote: Even people like Bean Counter, whose purpose seems to be to plump up their own egos at the forum's expense by playing juvenile "look at me I'm so clever" have their place in the forum's overall ecology, I think.
Hey! I *am* clever.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Actually, no. I'll tell you what I've done-- I've recoded my Mozilla so that when I feel that I've felt enough pity for one day, I press a button and POOF!
All your posts disappear. And I am free to roam Hatrack, pity-free.
I know it's hard for you - the separation, the constant longing you feel in your heart... But feeling pity for yourself isn't the answer.
However, if it gets to be a burden and you just can't read my words without the longing bursting like a flame in your heart, I would completely understand the recoding. And applaud the strength of your decision.
Remember, Scott - This, too, shall pass.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Like a kidney stone.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Hey, nobody asked you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I don't agree that they have 'their place', as in a rightful place in the community. But short of shooting them all you can do is ignore them and hope they go away.
An irritant can increase the host organism's robustness, or even result in the production of something beautiful. Despite the distain I feel for people who play the game Bean Counter has been dabbling in, I recognize that the threads they start often end up being quite successful and thought provoking.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Like the successful passing of a kidney stone.
[ January 11, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Look at me! Look at me!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
She's so clever!
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:An irritant can increase the host organism's robustness, or even result in the production of something beautiful. Despite the distain I feel for people who play the game Bean Counter has been dabbling in, I recognize that the threads they start often end up being quite successful and thought provoking.
I'm dubious. I think that, as Hatrackers are fully capable of having successful, thought-provoking discussions sans butt-munches like BC, if you don't need them for such conversations then why have the little creeps around?
I actually think the times when we are least successful are when we encourage their thinly veiled attempts at discord by posting in their threads.
But I know that you speak from generosity, of which I have little for punks like that. So, I can't fault your opinion. You're just much nicer than I am. Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
First of all, celia, you're not clever, you're *evil*. Like Ralphie's rack, that is a Hatrack given.
Second of all, I want to see these pictures of hot, sweaty Bok. Make it so.
Thirdly, rivka isn't the Hatrack Matriarch, kacard is. But rivka can be the Hatrack Auntie. (I loves me some rivka *hugs*)
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I don't think that n00b-ness is something that can be measured. I've known some completely civil n00bs...
It's just something that can only be measured by connection to the community and the amount of time one spends here... Like Rivka, she joined a month before I, but she has a stronger base in the community because, well.. SHE NEVER LEAVES.
I don't remember who mentioned feeling like a n00b even though one is not... I think it's less feeling like a n00b and more feeling out of place or worried or saying something stupid accidentally. Since n00b is a new word, its meaning doesn't necessarily have a 1 to 1 correspondance for everyone. I mean, I personally couldn't say I ever feel like a n00b here, just because this is my internet home, but I often feel unsure of myself, or that I don't understand something, or like I've done/said something stupid. (shrug)
As near as I can tell, the people we could call the derogatory term "n00b" don't feel any such feeling at all, so I guess it's not a perfect description of the feeling.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
quote: First of all, celia, you're not clever, you're *evil*.
Hey, she's clever and evil. I think evil is so much more clever than good.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
jexx, they are just the same old foobonics photos. I don't think Ralphie knows about the Mad Owl photos...
And I think I've seen the madowl ones. Still, another gander couldn't hoit.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Ahh, thanks for the linky, Ralphie, I'd forgotten about those. *VBG*
hot.sweaty.bok.
I'm trying to think of which actor he reminds me of (I can see him clearly in my mind), but the name escapes me. Ah well. It's the guy on Judging Amy who is the brother. Delicious!
I'm too lazy to look for the madowl photos right now, maybe later.
Do Not Tell Celia she is clever. It will bring on a spate of clownphotos (the most clever thing she has done, as far as I am concerned), and nobody wants that! Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Have you seen her avatar on GreNME? Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Know what's sad? I almost feel like too much of a newbie to post in this thread, but I know I'm not. My Foobonic pictures have been made fun of far too many times for that to be the case.
Well, until recently Hatchat wasn't a bad place to sort out the newbies; now it just seems cruel to keep it alive any longer. Bastaders... Oh man that was classic.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Proof that evil is *far* more clever than good. Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Oh, her avatar on GreNME is quite evil and clever, yes, but the clown stuff was *classic*. Now stop talking about her, you will summon the Evil One!
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
I get enough resistance from folks that aren't noobs but simply disagree with me.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
How do you know that I'm not "the evil one"?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
I *really* need to get involved in another elaborate prank.
I like my current office mates and don't feel the desire to rain sweet vengence down upon anyone in my life at the moment.
I'm fedying away.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Oh come now people, I'll grant that celia may well be clever and all, but evil... She's no more an evil aspect of Hatrack than tooth decay is of a candy store.
By the way celia, did we ever declare a ceasefire? And if so, have I broken it yet?
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
beverly, that link was great! And disturbing! I'd like to think I am like Vendetta, but I have always been a Charlotte. *snickers at self*
eslaine, you may be *An* evil one, but there is only one Evil One.
edit: Ack! There she is! Run!
[ January 11, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: jexx ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
The tequila for Steve and half of my birthday present were pretty evil, so you aren't that out of practice. AJ
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Number of dobies?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
My kids love those animations. I wonder if I am sick for showing it to them. Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
I think we've been at a cease fire since that rather humiliating mafia game where you decided to be my knight in shining armor. I'm not sure if that's because suddenly I got a little crush on you or because you went and graduated and are never on AIM anymore so we just haven't crossed paths.
Wait, I always had a crush on you.
I thought of you when I was lost in Huntsville, but that was the week after you were there if this is the year you were there. Or were you there and did you swap around the road signs so I took the wronge exit on the parkway?
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Yeah, the Mafia game was the reason I conceeded clever without a fight. But considering I got selected and killed by the SK in the only other game I played, look how far paling up with a Mafioso got me.
Alas, I was not in Huntsville this (or last) year. You were fooled by the sign-switches of some random person. Possibly even an Alabaman.
Feyd Baron, DoC
And I wonder if AJ remembers the Bastader reference...
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
no problem, bev, I let Christopher watch homestarrunner *shame*. I'll probably let him watch this one, too, if he should be in the room when I am playing them (I totally bookmarked it! *grin*). I have let him watch the muffin ones by the same artist. Oh, and of course Punk Kittens and Viking Kittens. I want him to be a punk rocker when he grows up, so I can live vicariously through him.
*bad, bad mommy*
Hehe.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Why was the tequila evil?
I know the birthday gift was, but that was a small evil granted to me by providence and not a large elaborate trap involving minions of any sort.
edit: lol, me being drunk does level the playing field for you, bastader. and you as doc with me as townie would have been grand if the board hadn't killed us all.
[ January 11, 2005, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: celia60 ]
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
A mafia game would be so nice right now.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jexx: Heh. It is weird to me to think of this younger generation growing up on internet animations.
I grew up listening to 8-track songs and stories. Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
bev: I know. Hehe. I remember hiding under the covers with my little radio so I could clandestinely listen to the Dr. Demento show. *grin*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: A mafia game would be so nice right now.
I was just thinking about Mafia the other day!
Posted by Quetzalcoatl the Burninator (Member # 7261) on :
**Burninates Thread**
MMmmmmm Mafia.....
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
You were unintentionally evil? Steve *hates* tequila. I thought you knew...
AJ
Posted by Lisha-princess (Member # 6966) on :
I've been reading posts and threads ridiculously more than I ever thought I would, and I'm still learning all kinds of things. There is definitely a ton of inside stuff that you have to pick up or figure out because there aren't any explanations anywhere. (It's almost embarrassing, how long it took me to figure out what a Jatraquero is, lol.) I think that that stuff makes the forum a lot more worthwhile though. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I'm sorry, but I just have to express my mind on this one.
Hatrack-style Mafia is *lame*. Our way is *so* much better. Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
And *who* made the GreNME avatar? Huh? Huh?
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
But, but, didn't he feed me tequila last time I was there?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Kama Rocks Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: I don't remember who mentioned feeling like a n00b even though one is not... I think it's less feeling like a n00b and more feeling out of place or worried or saying something stupid accidentally. Since n00b is a new word, its meaning doesn't necessarily have a 1 to 1 correspondance for everyone. I mean, I personally couldn't say I ever feel like a n00b here, just because this is my internet home, but I often feel unsure of myself, or that I don't understand something, or like I've done/said something stupid. (shrug)
This is exactly what I wanted to say. I feel very left out at hatrack. On the one hand I love it because it's very interesting and I love learning about people and their lives. On the other hand though, it's more like I'm reading a novel than participating in a community, I just sort of watch other people being part of the community.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Man, I have heard so many people say stuff like that. My friend, Nate, who was here for awhile as Intelligence3, left for a very similar reason... he left like there was an "in" crowd and if you weren't part of it, people didn't respond to you.
I very much felt that way until I went to KamaCon and met a lot of people in person. I don't know if the change was due to more of the "in" crowd knowing me, or if I was more outgoing and posted more after meeting people, or some combination thereof. So I don't know what to tell people who feel that way. But it makes me sad that people I consider part of the community (I'm talking to both of you, Ryuko and blacwolve) don't feel like part of it themselves.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I feel very left out at hatrack.
Nobody should feel like that, but I am very, very confident when I say that that isn't how you're percieved by anyone else. You're part of Bloomington, you're real, you're very contributing, and heck, OSC has responded to you! That's more than most of the so-called oldies.
-----
It does remind me a little of the Beautiful People in Dallas, though. Despite the fact that I've been friends with them for a year, and despite being on the committees, organizing things, having in jokes, and being invited to most things, I still don't feel part of it. I don't know why, but then, the first two nights of KamaCon I went to bed early because I felt a little out of place and didn't know where/if I fit in anywhere. Maybe most people feel like that often/sometimes?
Added: Dagnabbit, I3 left? But he was so funny!
[ January 11, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
He is very funny. And he might come back, he didn't say it was for good. *shrug* But yeah, he both felt not particularly welcome, and then there were a couple of meta-threads about hatrack that he felt reinforced the exclusiveness attitude.
If you make it for the henna party, you can probably meet him. He's hilarious in person.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I really like funny.
I worry about the metathreads and the welcomeness sometimes. There's such a definite culture that it does seem hard to break into - not on purpose, and not out of anything like snobbishness, but you have to be determined and sometimes it may not be worth it.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I know I felt that way for the first year or two that I was posting. I think part of it is that the community is so big that it’s easy to get lost in the shuffle. And it can take a long time to feel like you’ve been noticed, unless you do something spectacularly memorable.
Heck this whole “wedding” thing is really just a ruse because Bob and I wanted more Hatrack attention.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
And tell Nate to come back.
[ January 11, 2005, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Yeah. I know it's not on purpose, and I think the metathreads have their value. But since we all like each other so much, it makes it daunting for new people. (Like I said, I felt that way, and I had the "in" of being dkw's sister.)
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Is there anything we can do about that? Anne Kate, bless her heart, was the reason I think I didn't feel that way at first, but she can't be everywhere. I remember when she started posting less - I'd been on Hatrack for over a year and almost left then because I was so terrified of posting here by myself.
My method of getting noticed was, I think, to pick fights with Tom Davidson. I watch newbies do the same thing now and I CAN'T BELIEVE I WAS SO UNORIGINAL AND OBVIOUS. *sigh*
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*shrug* I don't know that there's anything we can do. I will try to get Nate to come in here and explain how he felt, like he told it to me, since I'm sure I'm not doing it justice.
I think part of it is feeling secure in your place at hatrack. That's something that comes with time, and the question becomes if it's worth it to people to put that time in.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Honestly, I think most of us see large parts of Hatrack happening without our participation; the forum is just too large for a person to take part in everything (particularly the stuff that involves physical gathering). That doesn't mean that one is left out of hatrack, it just means hatrack is large and full of stuff.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I sort of feel like we ought to always go way out of our way to make newcomers feel welcome. Even the ones who are rather abrasive on arrival. So many of those end up being great jatraqueros, contributing so much, once their sharp edges are worn off, you know? Another reason is that I remember my first post back in 1997 and I was terrified! Would anyone respond? Would they think I was an idiot? Would they laugh at me? We never know what other people are feeling and how much sorrow or trepidation they may have. That's why I hope we will always put kindness first.
Being funny is wonderful, and the funny stuff on hatrack is a whole lot of its charm. I learned long ago never to eat or drink while reading even serious threads. My walls still show signs of those lessons. But especially with new people, it's more important to make them feel welcome than it is to make even hilarious jokes that might possibly leave them feeling laughed at. Kindness is more important than the funny. It's sad, I know, but it's true.
A lot of alienated kids wander here because Ender means something to them. A lot of people of all ages come because OSC's work speaks to their hearts. It's such a good community of caring and wonderful people, and every new person who joins brings something special of their own to the place. I just feel like we should never forget that we don't own this forum. We are only caretakers, in a sense. All the people here are Uncle Orson's and Aunt Kristine's guests. We should always bend way over backwards to make new people, and especially young people, feel welcome and accepted. I think I've been falling down on my duties in that regard lately, but I do think it matters, and I'm really proud that people like Katie and Irami and Noah tell me I had a part in their coming here or deciding to stick around.
So welcome, all you new people! We're delighted to have you here. We hope you will stay around and enjoy this place as much as we have through the years. We look forward to getting to know you.
[ January 11, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
It's nice to see what I've been feeling put into words for me. I know I still feel way too new to comfortably post in certain threads and at times it feels like people are skipping right over your posts. But I knew it'd feel like that coming into the forum because of experience at another forum. So I won't be giving up quite yet.
I also have a friend here, who is friends with two other infrequent posters and acquaintances with yet a few others, who is having a hard time with posting because she doesn't feel like she fits in.
In both of our cases, we lurked quite a while before joining, so we both knew what we felt was enough about Hatrack to get by.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I know I still feel way too new to comfortably post in certain threads
Trust me - there's no thread that's exclusive, even ones where it looks like it's just two people going back and forth. We're mostly very nice here.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Thank you! *hugs*
I can't think of anyway to describe why I think I feel that way without it sounding really attackingish without meaning to, and I'm a bit upset about something unrelated right now, so that's all I'll say. It does mean a lot to me when people say they notice me, though. It's not that I feel ignored, it's just nice to be acknowledged sometimes. It made me feel a lot better. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Uhleeuh, I have enjoyed everything I have seen from you.
Edit: Same goes for you, blackwolve!
I think the people who get noticed the most are the "squeaky wheels". Of course, sometimes the attention is negative, and it can be scary to take that chance. But it seems like the most well-known are the most proliferate also. Some may have quieted down, but it was through being proliferate at one time that they became well known.
Then they can retire and live off the royalties.
It is like the attitude Porter always had towards dancing: The secret to not looking like an idiot is to act like you know what you are doing.
[ January 11, 2005, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
"When you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud!"
My 12th grade English teacher told us that; I think he got it from Strunk or White.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
quote: I'm sorry, but I just have to express my mind on this one.
Hatrack-style Mafia is *lame*. Our way is *so* much better.
Bring it on, bev!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*sulks*
I wanted to play "our way" on Sunday. It really must be done in person. In the Hatrack version, there is no real use for strategy because you are kept so much in the dark. Maybe next time. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Being funny is wonderful, and the funny stuff on hatrack is a whole lot of its charm. I learned long ago never to eat or drink while reading even serious threads. My walls still show signs of those lessons. But especially with new people, it's more important to make them feel welcome than it is to make even hilarious jokes that might possibly leave them feeling laughed at. Kindness is more important than the funny. It's sad, I know, but it's true.
A lot of alienated kids wander here because Ender means something to them. A lot of people of all ages come because OSC's work speaks to their hearts. It's such a good community of caring and wonderful people, and every new person who joins brings something special of their own to the place. I just feel like we should never forget that we don't own this forum. We are only caretakers, in a sense. All the people here are Uncle Orson's and Aunt Kristine's guests. We should always bend way over backwards to make new people, and especially young people, feel welcome and accepted. I think I've been falling down on my duties in that regard lately, but I do think it matters, and I'm really proud that people like Katie and Irami and Noah tell me I had a part in their coming here or deciding to stick around.
Anne Kate - You are inherently a very kind person, and I know that you were a large part of why I felt at home as early as I did in my Hatrack career. You are a very important part of the balancing act at the 'rack, and that's why you are considered so integral. If Anne Kate left, it would be a very sad day, indeed.
Hatrack is - first and foremost - a community for you. The more I thought of Hatrack as a community, nay - my community - the kinder I was to new people. But I no longer think of Hatrack as my community. And the less I think of Hatrack as my community, the less patient I am with the same old/same old drivel in a new package. I think that's really what it comes down to: if Hatrack is your refuge from The Storm, then you will be far more willing to share that refuge-like feeling with others. If Hatrack is a place of news, intelligent discourse, wit and banter (and if that's what you pride yourself in giving to Hatrack), then you are far less likely to massage the ground the little newbie seedlings are growing in.
While there is never an excuse to be rude to someone unfamiliar with 'the turf', I can completely see why people would lose patience with those that are unabashedly trying to disrupt the flow of the forums, and/or simply ignore those that are exhibiting difficulty finding their nitch amongst the intelligent discourse/banter.
Both these schools of thought are important, I think. Jatraqueros that see the potential in everyone help foster along the awkward newbies that end up being some of our most beloved members. Jatraqueros that tolerate no antagonism or banality prevent the place from becoming a nonstop sequence of party smileys, 1337 speak and people exploiting the emotional support Hatrack is usually happy to give with intensely personal issues that no one has any bidnazz around here knowing.
While that could, of course, be shameless justification because I'm in general not a very nice person, I do think that two schools of thought make a nice balance where people can be both welcomed and expect a certain level of excellence.
To those who have expressed that they've never found their nitch - from what I've seen, the vast majority of you are really cool posters. Sometimes it's hard to include newer ones in banter that is built on a history of previous conversations and dynamics. I'm sorry you feel that Hatrack is cliquish, and I won't deny that there is a solid reason to feel this way. I only hope you stick around long enough to feel comfortable. It took me at least a year not to feel a warm rush of heat run into my cheeks (the face ones) whenever I made a post, and then religiously hit "refresh" to see if anyone noticed. I think that's normal, and I hope you all eventually feel as comfortable here as I do.
Well, except you stinky ones. You know who you are.
[ January 11, 2005, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
beverly, I don't think there would have been time to play it with clues and such on Sunday. Besides, I had a tough enough time keeping track of what was going on without clues.
It's so much EASIER to keep track of stuff in online mafia. Who said what, who's dead, and so on.
But that was fun! I'll have to come back to SLC just so we can play again.
As far as feeling like you fit into Hatrack . . . I think how you start affects your perceptions a lot. My first post was long and carefully-worded, in a volatile and emotional topic. So I got replies addressed to me. Thus I learned that I could get attention here (and promptly disappeared for a month or two).
So even on days when I feel invisible, or when I have nothing to say, I know on a very basic level that I can get attention here. I wonder if some of our quieter posters (and lurkers) feel like they don't fit in because of different early Hatrack experiences. Whatever the reason, I think it's a shame. I wish blacwolve, Ryuko, Uhleeuh -- and so many others! -- would post more. They's good people!
And I3 should come back!!
quote: Both these schools of thought are important, I think. Jatraqueros that see the potential in everyone help foster along the awkward newbies that end up being some of our most beloved members. Jatraqueros that tolerate no antagonism or banality prevent the place from becoming a nonstop sequence of party smileys, 1337 speak and people exploiting the emotional support Hatrack is usually happy to give with intensely personal issues that no one has any bidnazz around here knowing.
While that could, of course, be shameless justification because I'm in general not a very nice person, I do think that two schools of thought make a nice balance where people can be both welcomed and expect a certain level of excellence.
I entirely agree. Well, except about the "no bidnazz" bit. Being able to bare my soul here -- when I want to -- has been very cathartic for me. I may do it again soon. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: It's so much EASIER to keep track of stuff in online mafia. Who said what, who's dead, and so on.
Actually, the one time I played, I had *such* a hard time keeping track of who was who! There were alter-egos, and life stories to keep track of. Possible motives. Ack! I don't think I want to do that again.
The way we play is so very simple. There are just townies, mafia, and police, divided roughly into thirds. When you die, you show what you were so everyone knows how many of who are still in the game. Being in person and knowing who is eliminated already allows you to actually have something to discuss when it comes time to lynch someone.
Yes, you must come back so we can show you how much better our version is!
Oh, and BTW, thanks so much for introducing us to that game! I think we are bound to get it ourselves soon.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*giggle* And so the contagion spreads! dkw to me, and me to Nathan&Jamie and y'all. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm really disappointed that Int3 isn't here anymore. I'd noticed that he hadn't posted in a while, but I'd just assumed he was busy and would be back--he feels like a natural for the forum.
I can completely understand why new people would feel a bit shut out here, for all the the reasons that have already been so well articulated. I know that it was years before I felt listened to here--I'd put all sorts of effort into setting out some idea or argument, and it wouldn't even be addressed. I wondered if anyone even noticed my posts, honestly, and thought about leaving more than once. What I didn't realize (well, I got it intellectually, but not emotionally) was that the fact that people didn't comment on my posts didn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been read and appreciated. Back then, when the forum was smaller, I read, literally, every post, but I only typed out a reply to a tiny fraction of those, and actually posted a small percentage even of those. Even today it isn't uncommon for me to type out a fairly lengthy reply, read over it, and think "naaaaahhh".
Above, someone was saying something about how most well known posters had had a very prolific period. That'd definitely true for some, but not all. I *think* that I'm pretty well known here--I certainly feel like I am, anyway--and I don't think I ever had a very prolific period. I think that I'm well known by virtue of having been here a long time, and having posted fairly steadily for almost all of that time. I don't think I've ever done anything dramatic to catch anyone's attention either. So, non-squeaky wheel types, take heed! To become a relatively well known, generally liked member of the forum, all you have to do is stick around for a while, and generally not be an ass. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Oh yeah, baby. And I think we will want to check out the other games they make too. Yippie!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:And *who* made the GreNME avatar? Huh? Huh?
Ah, but who provided the inspiration for the costume in the first place, hmmmm?[/one's own horn tooting]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Noemon, you seem pretty prolific to me.
And that's a good thing, 'cause I really like having you around.
Edit: I'm just sayin' that if you don't post much, it is very hard to be be widely known.
[ January 11, 2005, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I have no clue what celia's avatar on greNME is supposed to be.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:I entirely agree. Well, except about the "no bidnazz" bit. Being able to bare my soul here -- when I want to -- has been very cathartic for me. I may do it again soon.
I dunno. There seems to me to be a line that just shouldn't be crossed. You can always tell when I feel that line has been crossed because I blast the stinking thing to the sky. Even if that's not my call to make. Of course, people can tell me to cram it, and should.
Even still, I was referring to a non-stop sequence of personal issues which I've seen on more touch-feely forums. They usually end up simply becoming a support group and individual issues begin to lose meaning.
Posted by Lisha-princess (Member # 6966) on :
If it makes you feel better, blackwolve, you're one of the few here that I feel really comfortable with. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Ralphie, cram it. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
In context, woman! In CONTEXT!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Noemon, you seem pretty prolific to me.
And that's a good thing, 'cause I really like having you around.
Thanks bev! You know how much I like you and Porter both, don't you?
As for celia's avatar, it's her dressed as a cricket bat wielding valkyrie.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
When you look at my post count, though, and think about how long I've been here, it really doesn't come out to *that* many posts per day.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hey, Noemon, you're like an evil brother-in-law to me.
It seems like you didn't post that much when I first came here, but you post very regularly now.
Ralphie: That wasn't free license to tell you to cram it then?
quote: As for celia's avatar, it's her dressed as a cricket bat wielding valkyrie.
Wow. That seems... random.
[ January 11, 2005, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Ralpie -- cram it in context.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Icarus: Yeah, Trish. That's why Bob_The_Lawyer is Bob_The_Lawyer instead of, say SoAndSo_The_Chemist, or whatever it is he does anyway . . .
We would let in new members whom we had screened by giving them our throwaway names.
I was one such person. That's why I'm James Tiberius Kirk instead of queber or j_k.
So, to whoever gave me this one, thank you.
--j_k
Posted by Lucky4 (Member # 1420) on :
As a professional lurker, I relate to everything already voiced by several people far more articulate than I. Which is actually a great explanation of why I so rarely post- it always seems that someone has said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have.
Sometimes it's strange, feeling so close to all of you due to my stalker-esque love of Hatrack, yet knowing that no one knows me from Adam. This fall, I acquired more free time and vowed to start posting more, but alas, my "proliferative phase" has probably averaged less than a post a week. And each one was red faced and reloaded again and again. I think there might be such a thing as lurking too long, such that you get yourself into a position where you know and respect everyone too much to throw yourself out there and risk being disliked or, worse, disregarded.
But it's worth it. Hatrack is the haven for me that Ralphie talked about. I look forward to it all day, and it has been responsible for helping me to learn so much about myself and to grow, both in my knowledge and my insight. You are an incredibly giving and intelligent group of people, and I thank you so much for letting people like me watch, even if we remain on the side lines.
Anne Kate, when I posted the very first time in 2000, you said hi to me, and I still remember it; every time I took a short hiatus from Hatrack, you were the first person I looked for. Thanks for your kindness.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:Which is actually a great explanation of why I so rarely post- it always seems that someone has said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have.
Yeah, I sometimes feel that way too. But part of the reason some of these people seem so funny is that they post so darn much. The funny things you remember, the stupid posts you forget. Posting a whole bunch also helps with the speed problem. That's right, Hatrack, I'm advocating that we all post more fluff in order to get more quality. Of course, I'm also assuming we all improve with practice...
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
quote: As a professional lurker, I relate to everything already voiced by several people far more articulate than I. Which is actually a great explanation of why I so rarely post- it always seems that someone has said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have.
heh... that's something i should have said, but you said it smarter, funnier, and faster than I could have. Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
EDIT: I posted this briefly under an alias I created to play a little game with ElJay. I deleted and reposted under my proper identity. And edited again because some small stylistic inconsistencies wouldn't let me sleep.
Many thanks to those who expressed their desire for my return.
Okay, so ElJay called me and asked me to post. I am doing this with trepidation for a couple reasons. First and foremost, I don't post "goodbye" threads when I leave a forum, since it's typically intended, in my not-limited experience, as a plea to be asked to stay. I am not trying to be asked round for tea, I am replying to elucidate some of my reactions to Hatrack in a thread devoted to that topic.
Additionally, I don't want to burn bridges, since I am not entirely certain that I intend to decamp permanently. For the time being I wasn't feeling like this was the place for me.
I should point out that I am a career-driven man who has been out of work (permanent work at least) for nine months, and my psyche is a bit crumbly around the edges. I recognize that I may be more reactionary than is warranted.
Caveats lector aside, I'll try to sum up without naming names. I do not want to call people out individually. The "problem" as I see it seems more systemic than individual, and I do not want to preclude my future participation (as I have previously noted).
To begin with, as Eljay mentioned, I felt that my posts seemed to disappear into the ether. People in a thread would respond to points made by other posters, but my input would often elicit no reaction. My reaction to this phenomenon is undoubtedly egotistical--obviously, most people want to feel like their participation is important. Additionally, however, I felt like I was producing noise and not signal. If my contributions are not of value, then why post? I have participated in dozens of Internet fora over the years, both privately and professionally, and I know that the medium is fickle (a google search of my name turns up 650-odd hits, a few years ago it was more like 3000, and this is besides my various Internet aliases). If my participation is not strengthening a forum, I personally choose to move on and find somewhere that it will be.
Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to experience the same phenomenon here, as I have seen in recent threads when I have swung through to see what people are saying on Hatrack. The community seems to be a bit insular. Hey, that's your community--if you don't like it, it is your choice to change it, but I don't know how Hatrack could accomplish that consciously without being artificial.
Secondly, there is a distinct core of what people seem to regard as "Hatrack values," and participants who do not share those values are periodically the object of condemnation, or at least of snarky derision. This comes into sharp relief when a participant is so outside the Hatrack norm as to be publicly vilified. It is certainly within a community's perogative to attempt to enforce its own standards of behavior and participation. The insidious side effect of these community police actions, however, is that when a less-assertive participant sees this condemnation, it makes them leery of posting, since their views might not be up to the community standard. I do not agree with everything posted by some of the recent transgressors, but I do agree with some of what they have expressed, and the community reaction has served to make me feel less welcome. Again, your perogative as a community, just not what was working for me.
This is not unique to Hatrack, of course, and I have observed it often enough in my time on the Internet to recognize the metatrend when I encounter it. This is, in fact, a defining characteristic of a "community," in my experience. I am sure the core community at the Burning Man festival consider themselves accepting and open, but I'd imagine an "I love George W!" placard would be met with ostracization. Of course, Burning Man is now most likely frequented by some people just hoping to see naked "earthy" chicks, so a certain amount of ostracization is beneficial to the community. Not to mention the fact that said placard would undoubtedly be intended to incite negative reaction and not open dialog.
Next is the more controversial observation. Over time I have noticed that some frighteningly poor manners by longtime participants on Hatrack are generally tolerated, while even lesser offenses by relative newcomers are met with recursive condemnation. (By recursive, I mean that any one condemnation is typically joined by others building on previous condemnation.) This leads me to feel that manners are not the only reason people are condemned. If you do not share the aforementioned community values, then you are at least potentially not welcome, and as a result may be less likely to express any opinion that might be controversial in any small way. Bad behavior is a good reason to criticize others, but it is not, to my eye, actually the only reason people are being criticized. In fact, I have seen longtime participants follow up their own bad behavior with threats to leave the community, only to see them coaxed back with pleas of "don't leave." I am relatively certain that a similar sequence enacted by newer participants is bound to bear feeble fruit.
The appearance of what seems to be termed here the "metathreads" finally put me off my feed, so to speak. "What does Hatrack mean to you"-type threads are well and good for identifying who the "core" community is. Those threads often seemed to consist of passionate assertions that Hatrack is "open" to differing ideals, yet I could certainly think of many reasons to dispute those assertions. and the sentiment was somewhat diminished in contrast with the underlying message of those threads being that, "these new people are making me angry." I realize that many would deny that this is the intention, but that has been my observation, particularly as someone who already felt somewhat outside the community.
When, at last, I saw a metathread where one active participant was roundly excoriated for expressing (my summary, here) the opinion that Hatrack was pretty much a place like any other, and that it was something that could be done without, I felt that my time was better spent elsewhere, at least until the trend passed. Whatever that participant may or may not have done to exacerbate the situation with replies that fed the flames, the fact of the matter was that Hatrack didn't like to hear that it might not be all things to all people.
All of this is linked to a frustrating tendency on Hatrack to feed the trolls, so to speak. I realize that this criticism is seemingly at odds with my alienation at (apparently) being "underappreciated," but I wasn't trolling, just participating. People posting with the clear intent of inciting negative reaction are not necesarily going to come up empty, here. Many times I have wanted to post, "Do not feed the trolls," but an even moderately adept troll will find grist enough in that rejoinder. This trend seems to be a result of the other phenomena I have mentioned above.
Again, community perogative.
This is not to say by any means that I think Hatrack a den of vipers, boors, or isloationists. Many witty and intelligent things are expressed here every day, and this is a solid little community. I have been stopping by often enough that the forum root remains cached in my browser history, so the lack of a Hatrack bookmark in my toolbar becomes a more symbolic action than one might assume. I guess I'm only going on at length with this criticism because, hey, someone asked me directly. And the Hatrack community is interesting enough to deserve a thorough reply.
Hopefully I've not stepped on too many toes, here. I post this in hopes that it will help people understand the experience of forum "outsiders," not to incite community guilt or anger.
Note: I use the word community throughout. This is a loaded term in this postmodern world, but I feel it serves as a useful description of this social unit.
[ January 12, 2005, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Intelligence3 ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Thanks, I3.
And ya know, I hadn't realized you were the one who started the Turkish Lira thread.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
There are definitely cliques but you don't have to be in one to have fun here. I wasn't in any for a long time. I even started one of the anti-clique threads last year.
I think where cliques get nasty is when you can tell someone is being mean to you in order to gain favor with someone else who doesn't like you. Other than that, it is just the case that some folks are closer to each other than others. If that weren't true, what is it we think we want?
Replying to I3: I used to get bothered by no one acknowledging my posts. But I realized that if no one bothers to attack them, everyone who posts after is presumed to have read them and basically agreed with them. A really well written post is actually less likely to evoke reply.
There have been several threads lately that if I went just by the thread title, sounded trollish. Even though it was an established poster, I decided "If I wouldn't take this from a green noob, I'm not going to take it from this person."
[ January 12, 2005, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I3 - That was a very well-thought-out and considerate post. You apparently signed on and posted during my quasi-hiatus, and I'm sorry I didn't get the opportunity to read more of your thoughts.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I3, I missed you. And I'm not saying that because of this thread.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I think you made a lot of good points, MrFunny. It is always good to be reminded that everyone here deserves to be judged based on their behavior, not their post count or their member number. However, the rudeness of old-timers is typically written in a more palatable way than some of what we get from newcomers. This is not to justify the different treatment, but people will react more strongly against, "u suxors becuz u believe stupid things like the existince of god," than against "Religious people hold irrational and illogical beliefs and therefore should not be allowed to indoctrinate children." The second is in some ways more frightening, but the first would be far less acceptable here. I concede that we put a lot of emphasis on style of expression as well as content. This is perhaps not entirely fair, but I admit that I'd rather not see the standards lowered. I'm too lazy to read a bunch of abbreviations and leetspeak.
You also make an excellent point about the chilling effect our behavior has on the lurkers or those who don't post frequently and aren't assertive. Perhaps we should make more of a point of noticing and welcoming new people. I haven't really done that in the past, and I'll make an attempt to do it in the future. I don't really plan to stop making the occasional snarky comment, though perhaps I'll pay more attention to where I aim them.
Thanks for your thoughts. I hope you'll stick around. I'll probably get you mixed up with my brother, who has a similar username, so if I say something that seems overly affectionate for a near-stranger, I probably just got confused .
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Huh. I suppose there probably are cliques here, but evidently, I'm too clueless to notice on my own. But then, IRL, I didn't much care, either.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:A really well written post is actually less likely to evoke reply
Trisha, you hit the nail on the head. If I think, "Wow, I so totally agree, and they covered this from every possible angle" then I probably won't mention it in my reply. I've started trying to acknowledge posts that made me laugh, since I appreciate knowing when my [attempted] funny posts are successful. But yeah, if you post something and I don't reply to it, you can probably assume I was reasonably impressed. People also tend to post replies to the most recent posts in a thread, even if it's five pages long and this is their first post.
Edit: quidscribis, I haven't received any clique membership cards in the mail lately, and I really like it here. I guess I'm either not in one, or I'm totally oblivious to the social undercurrents here. Probably both.
[ January 12, 2005, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: Shigosei ]
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Shig- werd.
(see what I mean?)
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Shig, you're in the asian gang. quid is in the "learned about Islam from someplace other than PBS" gang. At least, I'm guessing...
I guess cliques are sometimes also just about personal attachement and not anything content based.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Cool! I'm in the Asian gang! That's really funny considering I usually have to tell other Asians that I'm Asian...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ah, but this is the wondrous InterNet, where you can define yourself anyway you like.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
btw - I also thought Lucky4's post was especially interesting. I recognize your handle, of course, but I just now realized that you signed on a mere month before I did. It's like someone else silently having the same career.
And for what it's worth - I've posted on other forums, of course, and the only place I've ever been where newbie status was 'easy' ended up being about the most banal forum I'd ever seen. The places where I've earned my stripes, so to speak, have always been the most rewarding.
'cept Hatrack. I just rode Slash's coattails here.
[ January 12, 2005, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'll admit to never making any special effort to acknowledge I3 because, frankly, I thought he was just another pseudonym for Jon Boy, what with the linguistic obsessions and all. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I admit to never actually acknowledging anyone.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I liked your post in general, I3, and I agree with most of it, but I do want to adress this:
quote: Whatever that participant may or may not have done to exacerbate the situation with replies that fed the flames, the fact of the matter was that Hatrack didn't like to hear that it might not be all things to all people.
I didn't see the thread, but I will say that responses like that don't mean that Hatrack doesn't like hearing it's not all things to all people. It means the people who responded don't like to think that Hatrack isn't all things to all people. I realize that, ultimately, Hatrack is the people who make it up, but unless the majority of people who post here responded that way, it isn't fair to state it in such a way as to say that the entire community agreed with the sentiment.
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
Fair enough, PSI, but my point there is that the thread served to reinforce all the previous factors which had influenced my decision. I probably should have written: "Whatever that participant may or may not have done to exacerbate the situation with replies that fed the flames, the end result was that the Hatrack community appeared as if it didn't like to hear that Hatrack might not be all things to all people. Since it was not all things to me, I decided to move on."
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Int3, that was a fascinating post. I'll have to mull it over before I respond, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciated it.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
<filler post to avoid end of page>
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: I am relatively certain that a similar sequence enacted by newer participants is bound to bear feeble fruit.
I3, this is the only part of your post I disagree with. Witness Jonathan’s “Fare Thee Well” thread. It’s longer than some long-term members’ farewell threads, and unlike some long term members’ threads I don’t think he got a single “Don’t let the door hit your rump on the way out” post. We even had a deliberate and obvious troll post a goodbye thread and he got people asking him to stay. It’s the reason goodbye threads are such effective pleas for attention. Hatrack will beg anyone to stay. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I need to get a t-shirt that says--
Ralphie wrote it.
I believe it.
That settles it.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Has there ever been anyone with a personality that Hatrack unanimously was happy to see go? Even BALDAR had his defenders, and I think EVERYONE gets defended at some point, even if it is just by Xaposert.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Heh, heh.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
There was one poster some time back who was unanimously boo'ed-- if I recall correctly, she had personal ties to another Jatraquera, and had hacked her yahoo account to send out vicious emails or something like that.
No one (not even Tres) defended her, and lots of people asked her to leave. I think that has to do with the fact that her behavior (as opposed to ideas, presentation, etc) were absolutely right out.
[ January 12, 2005, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I keep trying to goad TomD. into telling me to leave. . . I think I'm getting somewhere with my baby-eating jokes. . .
Posted by Quetzalcoatl the Burninator (Member # 7261) on :
quote: Has there ever been anyone with a personality that Hatrack unanimously was happy to see go? Even BALDAR had his defenders, and I think EVERYONE gets defended at some point, even if it is just by Xaposert.
Me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"We even had a deliberate and obvious troll post a goodbye thread and he got people asking him to stay."
Well, yes. But that's more because some people on Hatrack are seriously co-dependent than because we all actually wanted him to stick around. j/k
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Actually I think Noemon, in particular, is good about saying, "I don't have anything in particular to say at this moment but I want you to know I read your post and appreciated it." I try to remember to do stuff like that myself, but it doesn't always pop into my mind as a high priority particularly when I'm skimming in between projects at work.
I would agree that well written posts that everyone agrees with tend to get the least feedback at the time, unless it is over a *hot* issue.
I personally have been surprised recently on two threads that I have posted on, because I *did* get positive feedback with people saying that they agreed with my assessments in most cases. I'm one of those people who would probably post anyway as an exercise in expressing my thoughts and seeing if I can formulate them coherently enough to myself. But I can see how others would get discouraged.
Maybe we need a Positive Post feedback program? I know we have a lot of those "rate this post" kinds of things that can be done in UBB disabled in this forum. And there are good reasons as well as bad for disablement, but that is probably the kind of positive feedback more reticient posters need.
AJ
[ January 12, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
quote: I3, this is the only part of your post I disagree with. Witness Jonathan’s “Fare Thee Well” thread. It’s longer than some long-term members’ farewell threads, and unlike some long term members’ threads I don’t think he got a single “Don’t let the door hit your rump on the way out” post. We even had a deliberate and obvious troll post a goodbye thread and he got people asking him to stay. It’s the reason goodbye threads are such effective pleas for attention. Hatrack will beg anyone to stay.
Again, a fair assessment, though one based on threads I missed. I tried to avoid definitive statements in my post since I was providing my impressions, how it "feels" to be new at Hatrack.
Thanks to all for the further requests for my return.
And I missed you too, Kama. Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
QtB-???
Okay, well despite several attempts I can't figure out how to reply to that. Just to say that you being gone made it a lot easier for me to leave Hatrack when I did. I wouldn't have been disinterested in your leaving. But maybe it happened in a thread that due to the title I never read. Like the hug thread.
P.S. This assumes you were posting as yourself. Were you the anonymous poster that wrote "We"?
[ January 12, 2005, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You people are hilarious. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I have to say that I see a lot of people saying things about feeling left out or ignored that I didn't know were going on here. I see a lot of behavior that I don't like, from a lot of people. My strategy is usually to ignore it. I guess I started that when I posted my opinion in a thread early on and got a "that's a stupid opinion, don't you have a better reason to think that?" kind of reply. I decided that there are some people here that are just like that. But there are also people here that are really cool and funny, so I stay to talk to them. I accept everyone for who and what they are, and there aren't people I "like" more than others.
I guess this is an apology for being clueless that others felt like this. I'm sorry if I've inadvertently hurt anyone by any action or inaction, posting in reply to them or not posting.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Is there anyone here who really feels like they're in the "in" group? Sure, we could all name names, but I honestly wonder if the people we'd name picture themselves the same way as we do.
That said, can I add my own Hatrack angst to the thread? Leaving has been on my mind for the last few weeks. (No, this is not a ploy in order to get people to ask me to stay ) I love Hatrack, but sometimes it makes me feel very very stupid. I don't often post in political threads, and have left threads I'm enjoying because I feel like I can't keep up. And once the conversation moves into higher territory, my piddly little observations go unnoticed and aren't responded to. I dunno. I think I need a more mediocre forum.
space opera
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I have zero problem posting in threads I don't know anything about or giving my opinion, because that's the number one way I learn things. Seriously. I've learned more about stuff I don't know about by just giving my uninformed opinion and letting everyone tell me what's what.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
quote:Is there anyone here who really feels like they're in the "in" group?
I feel like I'm in the "in" group. Definitely. Oh, and I'm stalking you all. I just wanted to let you know. And I can't spell.
[ January 12, 2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I feel like I'm in the "in" group. I just don't feel like I belong there -- I just got grandfathered in some time long ago.
I rarely take part in political threads, because my knowledge is so limited, and thus my ability to separate information from spin is limited as well. I think I'm reasonably decent at deduction, but when the "facts" are not stipulated, deduction can become useless. Thus, when I do contribute, I'm more likely to ask a (leading) question than give an answer. And even my "leasing" doesn't lead to an answer I already have; instead it's designed to lead to a discussion, but usually fails to do so.
I generally won't get into religious discussions, because giving an opinion on a single issue often boxes me in with others who may have that same opinion but for different reasons, and then I'm held to account over those reasons with which I may or may not agree. I also feel that more assumptions are made about other opinions I hold because most people who hold the one hold the other.
[/Hatrack angst]
By the way, there have been new members in the recent past that I do trust. I won't list them, lest I leave someone off I do trust. But if you arrived here with a smile and no apparent agenda, you're probably still on my trustable list.
Yeah, this thread is nothing like how I thought it started.
--Pop
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I feel like there are probably some n00bs who think I'm in the in group but that's born of ignorance and it shall be smited.
I've never been "in" and I don't plan to start now!
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
I'm in some groups, out of others, and not sure on some. Just like in real life. The best way to have a friend is to be a friend. Works with the word enemy also.
P.S. PSI is coming out
[ January 12, 2005, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I want the world to know!
I've got to let it show, of course.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: The best way to have a friend is to be a friend.
If I were only that smart!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't feel like I'm in any "in" group, but I've been told on at least two occasions that I am. By people who evidently don't think they are. I certainly don't feel like I'm in an "out" group, but usually I feel somewhere in between the two.
Maybe somebody should bump Slash's "Reasons You Should Leave Hatrack" thread.
I had a very nice newbiehood, assuming it's over. Everybody was very welcoming and polite and friendly. I even had Ralphie and Aretee telling me in Parachat that I really ought to post more. (My only real bitterness is that Belle used to give everybody cookies, but she never did this for me . . . ) I don't know if Hatrack has changed since then.
My personal suspicion, which I admit might simply be a lack of insight/empathy on my part, is that Hatrack is generally not rude to people who are nice when they arrive. I have seen people go out of their way to be very welcoming to some new posters, and recently, too. (It's a shame new posters who are welcomed never feel compelled to rush to Hatrack's defense in threads like these . . . wonder what that means . . . ) In my experience, when we are mocking or dismissive of somebody, it is almost always because they came in being rude and insulting.
I agree with rivka's agreement with Ralphie. :-p Anne Kate, I love how genuinely good-hearted you are. That is not any kind of left-handed praise: I love to chat with you when you have time, and to have conversations with you. I love to newiefish in Parachat with you (part of why I bristle at the suggestion that we are unkind to newbies). However, if everyone here were as nice as you all the time, I would probably lose interest. We have all types of people here, and I see that as a strength. I don't think love generally wears the edges off of initially obnoxious posters. I think sometimes getting smacked around a bit, figuratively speaking, can.
random thoughts here, in no particular order
It may be that the ease I felt is related to the fact that I never belonged to another forum before Hatrack. I had no expectation of anything different from what I got. I expected to be seen as an outsider at first, and I didn't find this off-putting or offensive. I expected there to e inside jokes I didn't get, and so I wasn't annoyed by them. I just tried to pay attention and figure out what they were.
It may also be that the value of a community is proportional to the effort that it takes to belong. Or maybe not. I will think on this.
Intelligenc3, I noticed you posts and always enjoyed them. I'm sorry that Hatrack was not for you, and I apologize if anything I did was off-putting to you. I wonder if the thread you were describing was Squicky's thread that began with a quotation of something I had said, where I took exception to being quoted out of context. If so, my complaint was not because I think Hatrack is all things--though clearly, I do find value here.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I don't think love generally wears the edges off of initially obnoxious posters. I think sometimes getting smacked around a bit, figuratively speaking, can.
This is a wise statement. Icarus
quote: It may be that the ease I felt is related to the fact that I never belonged to another forum before Hatrack. I had no expectation of anything different from what I got. I expected to be seen as an outsider at first, and I didn't find this off-putting or offensive. I expected there to e inside jokes I didn't get, and so I wasn't annoyed by them. I just tried to pay attention and figure out what they were.
Another wise statement. This is how I felt coming in. I was in awe of the community feel of Hatrack. I lurked a bit first, taking note of the real bonds here between people. It wasn't long before I knew I wanted to be a part of it.
Several times when someone comes in, guns blazing, acting obnoxious, I think to myself that they haven't observed this place and taken note of what a unique and lovey place it is. They think it is "just another forum".
There have been times when I didn't feel comfortable here. I have had to distance myself at times. But I come back. Where else would I go, where forums are concerned? There is no other place I know of anything like this. Hatrack is far from perfect, but in the wasteland that is cyber-space, this is an oasis, a utopia. My 2 cents anyway.
[ January 12, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I think love does - of the initially-abrasive posters who reformed and stayed, it wasn't because they were smacked around enough, but because they were "shown the light" and it became worth it. For instance, David Bowles.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
The smacking doesn't have to be rude or cruel. It can be done in a caring way--with the intent to show the light. I have seen Tom do an excellent job with this.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: ...the initially-abrasive posters who reformed and stayed, it wasn't because they were smacked around enough, but because they were "shown the light" and it became worth it.
I was smacked around... Thank you for it (literally, no sarcasm).
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't think David was loved into reform.
Posted by Glaphyra the Righteous (Member # 6995) on :
I really am saddened by people feeling left out or unwelcome here even though they are offering things back to the community. My own first few years at the 'Rack were also marked by a near-complete lack of enthusiasm for my brilliance and wit. *grin
It was about a year and a half before I really felt I had made some friends here. The relationships built rather slowly, but strongly. I do remember quite clearly the frustration at feeling ignored, even when what I had to say was both relevant and, IMO, important to the matter at hand. That hurt. Still does, when it happens.
There are many more people here now than there were when I first came, and I think that exacerbates the likelihood of getting lost in the shuffle, if nobody already knows you.
[ January 12, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Glaphyra the Righteous ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
GtR, do I know you?
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
I hope this doesn't come off wrong, Ic, but I don't think of you as a cliqester- for good or bad. But I definitely think of you as a pillar of Hatrack. And you are a teacher, which builds my respect of you. Even though we disagree a lot. I don't mean I defer to you because you are a teacher, but that I think of you as a generous person because I know you made that choice.
quote: In my experience, when we are mocking or dismissive of somebody, it is almost always because they came in being rude and insulting.
I don't know, my husband registered once. He happened to pick a thread that Leto was dominating at the time.
My brother in law also joined and got called on needing evidence for some assertion or otherwise not meeting the Hatrack standard of evidence.
I think another factor for both of these guys is they have a lot of force to their personalities when you meet them, and the interaction when it is just words is entirely different. We already know that a disproportional number of 'rackers are interoverts.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
beverly, GtR is Sara Sasse and ClaudiaTherese.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hey, I've got a forceful personality, and I'm still around. There's plenty of room on Hatrack for the arrogant. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yeah, I got a bit of a clue when Dag called her "Sara" in another thread.
Thanks for the heads up, though. I appreciate it. Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Boy. Do I need a new sign-in? I feel so 2003 all of a sudden. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Don't do it! Resist the urge to give in to MHPD.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah Trisha, Leto developed a bit of a habit of letting loose with both barrels on people that didn't really deserve it there toward the end. Probably scared off more than a few potential Hatrackers that way, I'm afraid.
Posted by Glaphyra the Righteous (Member # 6995) on :
Sorry. I forget to plug back in and out. And me who had only one handle for like four and a half years! This is one of the Catholic saints of my birthday, and it was totally tongue-in-cheek.
Didn't realize I was still wearing these clothes until ElJay pointed it out in another thread.
Excuse me while I slip into something more comfortable. Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
MHPD? Mega-Hatrack-Pseudonym-Dimwitability?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Multiple Hatrack Personality Disorder.
Just say no!
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
No.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
*hands JH a cookie*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, I assumed it was Multiple Handle Personality Disorder -- since it is something that plagues other fora as well.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
LOL!
<--Glad Dagonee stayed.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ah, but I don't care about other fora.
I've only hung out at a few others. One had a draconian policy against multiple handles (I had to get permission for Eve and I to use the forum from the same IP address). The others were all for games, and you had a single login you pretty much had to use.
But you're right, that's probably the better description.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
*Checks for spyware* *Realises it's real* *Eats and thanks Dagonee*
[ January 12, 2005, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Leto developed a bit of a habit of letting loose with both barrels on people that didn't really deserve it there toward the end."
*nod* John got away with more than most posters, mainly because a lot of us knew his personal history. For people who didn't know much about him, and weren't as inclined to cut him some slack, it must have seemed like outrageous hypocrisy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You hit the nail on the head there, Tom.
[ January 12, 2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Even as a friend of John's and knowing his history I thought it was hypocritical.
Then again, I really should be all for hypocrisy, as it's why I get away with so much crap around here.
edit: Wait, I just remember that I used to be one of his champions. Damn.
edit again: But then, I do vaguely remember him being very pissed off with me for chastising him and telling him to cool it on the forums, so...
Man, I have no solid memories anymore.
[ January 12, 2005, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
You can say that again.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
that <ducking and running>
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I feel like I've been pushing the line a bit with swearing and discussions of sex lately. It hasn't seemed very out of keeping with other stuff I've been seeing here (Tatiana actually called someone a "dick", which is probably further than I'd go here, and I certainly wasn't the only one going beyond the user agreement in the bra thread a couple of weeks ago), but it definitely does violate the user agreement, I think. Have I made anyone feel uncomfortable with that kind of stuff?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
You swear? Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Have I made anyone feel uncomfortable with that kind of stuff?
You're so cute.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Some. More at Sakeriver and The Cactus than here, but some.
And Ralphie,
Seriously, I'm sure I haven't caused offense to most people here, but there are some with delicate enough sensibilities that I might have, and if I have I want to be aware of it.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Actually, Noemon, I've appreciated the education. I've considered making a list of advice and activities from the "Bra sizes" thread to try out when the time comes. I will keep the forest on a hill overlooking a lake cautionary tale in mind, for sure.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Ok, I'm having a good day, and I thought up all kinds of things I wanted to say while I was reading the thread, so let's see how many of them I can remember .
1)Lisha- You're my favorite new person. Do you have AIM? Maybe we can discuss sometime we can get together? It seems silly we're at the same university and don't know each other. Sort of cool, though. You could be living across the hall or in one of my classes and I wouldn't know it. *ponders*
2) Lucky4- I recognize your name and I think I've read most of your posts. There was one semi recently that I really agreed with, but I don't post much.
3) I'm sometimes tempted to post just saying that I agreed with someone's point or thought that they expressed themselves really well, but I've always been scared that they will either not care or take that as a bad sign. (Me, insecure? Never!) Thinking logically I doubt this is the case, but it generally stops me when I get the urge.
4) A lot of the time when I discuss politics or anything it's much more me thinking out loud than me trying to put together a coherent argument for something. While that makes for good discussions IRL, it really requires the people you're discussing with to be able to intervene, which is impossible in a forum.
5) The reason I posted in the first place was not to get people to tell me how important I am (I know it wasn't for anyone, but with the attention I got I feel like I was). It was more because Ryuko posted right before me and I've always thought of her as one of those people who are jatraqueros from day 1 so I was very surprised and wanted to let her know that other people felt the same way, because that always makes me feel better.
I'm going to go start a thread now. Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
I apologize for being a bit slow at addressing these-and I'll address them both at the same time- but I thought I would say a little more on the subject.
quote: (It's a shame new posters who are welcomed never feel compelled to rush to Hatrack's defense in threads like these . . . wonder what that means . . . )
quote: Trust me - there's no thread that's exclusive, even ones where it looks like it's just two people going back and forth. We're mostly very nice here.
I know that people here are mostly nice, Dagonee, and Icarus, I was welcomed to Hatrack and didn't mean to put Hatrack on the defense, so to speak, if I did. When I agreed a few pages back about feeling ignored or feeling uncomfortable to post in certain threads, it was mostly because of myself and not others.
I'm a strange being; I like knowing someone has read what I wrote but too much attention for something will embarass me more than make me comfortable. That's why I tend to post so sporadically. I have to have the right balance and I have to feel like I'm not asking for too much attention.
I don't know when I started being paranoid about it, but for the longest time I've been scared of being branded an attention hog. But that's more off topic than I intended to go. I know how I am and quite often the issue of feeling ignored is because I make myself so scarce, no one has much of a chance to take notice of me.
That also means I notice groups more and that I'm not in them. But again, that's mostly my fault so I hold no ill feelings for Hatrack on that.
As for threads being exclusive, I know they're not. But it sometimes feel awkward trying to enter into banter between friends and such.
I also have old habits from another forum that I've carried over with me. The people at this forum seem to look down on threads derailing, conversation in threads and certain subjects that have popped up here. It's taking a lot more getting use to than I thought it would.
With all of that said, I think Hatrack is a great place and I don't blame Hatrack for my being uncomfortable here; I should have stated that in my first post a few pages back. On some level I consider myself a real member here because of the joy I feel when I think that I'll be able to share some important future experiences here (first "real" job, moving to IL in a few years, wedding, children, etc.) and continue to read about all of yours.
Okay, I think I've rambled enough and I just know that's going to make me turn a few shades of red.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
I was going to remark earlier today on the quasi irony of me being the Severe Hottie and Sara being the Righteous. I mean it's not a full on guffawing irony, just sort of weird.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
You feel derailing is discouraged? Wow. Go read my Weird & Creepy thread... we've gone from a potential stalker to Minneapolis bakeries to weapon selection and back in less than 24 hours.
I think I know what you mean, though... some threads people try to "steer" more than others. The ones that turn into complete digressed fluff are usually my favorite. But that's just 'cause fluff is my strong point. Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
Oops. I meant at the other forum those things(derailing, conversations, certain topics, etc) were discouraged and that's why I'm not used to it being done here. English and I don't get along. Too bad it's the only language I know. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: I don't know when I started being paranoid about it, but for the longest time I've been scared of being branded an attention hog.
quote: When I agreed a few pages back about feeling ignored or feeling uncomfortable to post in certain threads, it was mostly because of myself and not others.
That's exactly what I was trying to say!
for being more coherent than I am
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ah, gotcha Uhleeuh. I was kinda wondering, since threads here do tend to, um, wander.
Edited for clarity.
[ January 12, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Noemon said: "Seriously, I'm sure I haven't caused offense to most people here, but there are some with delicate enough sensibilities that I might have, and if I have I want to be aware of it."
I am highly offended by this sort of talk, Noemon. Please clean up your act. I am older than many women in the Hatracian community, and we older people are a bit on the prudish side. My sensibilities are extremely delicate.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
blacwolve: Mind if I quote and frame the part about me being coherent? I'm notorious for getting flustered and just saying, "Um, well, yeah but no", finger snapping when I'm trying to remember a word I should know or for using my hands to create a physical blank to be filled with some help. Tis a proud day in the apartment of Alea.
ElJay: No kidding about threads wandering...I read the entire bra thread, your stalker thread, your mouse thread, the porn thread, and this one, just to name a few that ended much differently than they started. They're how M. Night Shyamalan attempts to make his movies: full of unsuspected twists that make them that much more entertaining. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Elizabeth is of course the very picture of decorum and ladylike sensibility. I would like to deny all rumors that she emailed me asking for pictures of my adventure in the woods.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Noemon, I don't think I ever called anyone that, did I?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Noemon, Noemon, you are such a naughty one.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tatiana, I thought that you did, but Sara said that it was her. Confusing one of you with the other is a compliment to both of you, I think.
Elizabeth--who, meee?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I have something to say about the "in-group" thing.
I think that there are a lot of different people here, and people tend to clump up with others they have interacted with in the past, as long as those interactions have been good.
I think of my self as part of the "in" group, but not as part of it as well.
That is because there isn't just one group, and there is no limit to the number of different groups (or clumps, or whatever) you can belong to. I could mention several groups right of the top of my head..KamaCon, WMASS Picnic, all the different clump meetings, EnderCon.....
The Medical group...Sara/CT/GTR, Alucard, Theca, JenniK, Speed, Ela....and others too varied to mention.
The various DnD groups...
Regional groups, book reading groups, social commentary groups..
All you have to do is develop your own voice, and post, and treat others with some modicum of respect... and BAM!....here is a group for you.
Icky, you are a part of several groups, even if you don't think you are, or just haven't noticed yet. The FL clump, the Corrupted by Disney Greed group...
That is part of why I love Hatrack so much...I am not pidgenholed to one group of friends here, I can float in and out of threads as I see fit.
Kwea
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I've been around a little while... but don't have a terribly high post count. I'm a slow poster. I do however, have many people who can vouch for my existance
EDIT: DOH! During the course of reading the first page I forgot that there was more than one page to this thread! Oh well...
[ January 12, 2005, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I do not exist.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I3, You posted an interesting and relevant link on a thread I was interested in. I regret not trying to draw more out of you. I get what you're saying (if I were in the mood to write something like that, I'd write something like that) and my own link here is pretty tenuous right now, but I wanted to let you know that I regret not being in a recognize and encourage promising newcomers mode when I came across you.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
If I remember correctally I# is probably talking about the me and Irami discussing things.
Irami is not a blushing first-poster, nor an I...which brings up an important point, something that new people might not get...
Just because peopel disagree with you here doesn't mean that they will blast you for it. Also, just because two people are arguing about something doesn't mean that that is all they are discussing...there could a history there, leading up to the agrument.
I had a problem, not with what Irami was saying, but how he said it...an not just that post either. I may not be the brightest bulb onthe x-mas tree, but I am not the dimmest, and I don't like being spoken down to. I felt that his so called eliteism was snobbery at the best, and that isn't how I remember Irami. It wasn't the first time either.
I still think he can be OK, but I have a lot less respect for him now...not because he feels Hatrack is a poor substitute for RL, but because to his apparent hipocracy and his innuendos.
If that contributed to you leaving, I am sorry. I saw a few of your posts and thought you were pretty cool, but I don't think I said that...it is like someone already sadi...if we don't disagree with you then the point was probably well recieved...
I am one of the people who call others on what they are saying..I don't feed the trolls more than once, but I feel that even someone who is acting like a troll might just need a heads-up about it. A few have changed, but most of them don't...and at least I don't have to worry about anyone wondering what I think... Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
*poke*
Same thread, dummy.
Actually I have a really bad habit of feeding the trolls. I try to curb it, but a lot of times I just can't resist.
Gosh, the more I examine my own actions, the more I think I'm exactly the sort of poster I3 must not be able to stand! Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
The Cassius Locke thread is an interesting example of Hatrackers trying to welcome someone while still talking about him/her in the third person with subtle and not-so-subtle jabs involving paragraph breaks and other things that a new person could find nitpicky/abrasive/offensive. But Cassius Locke was kind enough to take the proffered suggestions, so I guess he/she is a good sport. *tips hat to Cassius Locke* I hope you stay on the board.
It's all rather amusing actually. *scratches head*
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: Shig, you're in the asian gang. quid is in the "learned about Islam from someplace other than PBS" gang. At least, I'm guessing...
But, Trisha, people here think I'm Japanese, so can't I be in the Asian gang, too?
(and I learned about Islam in High School English Lit class - we had to read portions of the Bible and the Qu'ran. It was cool. Although I know way more now . . .)
quote: My brother in law also joined and got called on needing evidence for some assertion or otherwise not meeting the Hatrack standard of evidence.
Me, too. It wasn't polite by any stretch. I don't remember the exact details, but it was very insulting, very rude, and very obnoxious. And it was so stupid - like I had to provide evidence on top of the many links to various whatevers that I provided, on top of the quoted bits, and still it wasn't enough to satisfy some people who called me rude names and pretty much just blasted me. Oh, and other threads where I just voiced my opinion and that wasn't good enough for whoever it was, either.
I left Hatrack there for a few weeks or a month or something because the reaction I got was so offensive and so over the top. I ended up coming back out of curiousity - is everyone else the same way or what? I ended up just staying out of the serious threads for a long time because of those posts. I'm still not comfortable in the serious threads for that reason.
Now, at least I've been here long enough to recognize that behavior as the exception rather than the rule.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Reading this thread, I get the strong feeling that I don't belong here at all.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Tatiana, why do you say that?
Posted by Lisha-princess (Member # 6966) on :
quote: (It's a shame new posters who are welcomed never feel compelled to rush to Hatrack's defense in threads like these . . . wonder what that means . . . )
I do this it's worth noting that aside from 13, all the new posters who say they don't quite feel like they fit in are still here.
Blackwolve- my sn is LishaLDSChic. I very much think we do need to get together sometime. I think Hobbes should cook for us; it's my new favorite pastime! (I'm not sure it's his.... )
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Coming into the Hatrack Community is a lot like starting your freshman year of high school in a completely new town.
Chew on that.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"trying to welcome someone while still talking about him/her in the third person with subtle and not-so-subtle jabs involving paragraph breaks and other things that a new person could find nitpicky/abrasive/offensive"
I really, really hate that, and flee from threads where it is happening.
Edit: Scott, that is such a good analogy, and the reason for my flight.
[ January 13, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:The Cassius Locke thread is an interesting example of Hatrackers trying to welcome someone while still talking about him/her in the third person with subtle and not-so-subtle jabs
I was thinking the same thing about the Politics POST HERE thread. If people had acted that way on my first thread, I'm sure I wouldn't have come back.
Now, I will grant you that I lurked for awhile and then posted an introduction as my first thread, so that was very unlikely to happen. But still. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tatiana, I'll second the question.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Are you taking what I said the wrong way?
My point was that the variety at Hatrack is the spice, and if we were all how one person wants us to be, then it would not be as lively and interesting a place.
I've been pretty consistent about always pointing to this variety as the strength I see in Hatrack . . . look for it and then you'll see it. I feel horrible at the thought that it could be what I said that is making you feel this way, anne kate. If you go back and read it again, hopefully you'll see that there was no insult in there. As far as how I feel about you, do you ever read the unsolicited hug thread?
-o-
While it's flattering to be called a pillar of the community, I don't think I have been around long enough by any stretch.
Anne Kate is definitely one, though.
I was thinking about going into whom I thought the real pillars are, but then it occurred to me that that would be akin to a popularity thread/post, and risk hurting other people's feelings, so I won't.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Icky, you're a pillar. You are probably the single most insecure pillar we've got, in that you're probably the only pillar who honestly worries when your posts don't get replies, but you're a pillar nonetheless. Trust me on that one. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
So. I'm not a pillar then.
Edited for clarity: to make the joke obvious, which it evidently failed at.
[ January 13, 2005, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:I think Hobbes should cook for us; it's my new favorite pastime! (I'm not sure it's his.... [ROFL] )
Hobbes cooks?! I'm in! (assuming he cooks well)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quid, why does anybody seek to be a pillar? I want to be generally respected and well-liked. You certainly are those things. CT is considered a pillar, and I think she has specifically said she would prefer not to be thought of that way. If you are a pillar, all that means is that when you show a sign of humanity, people are more likely to rip you apart for it. It means that your casual words are taken way too seriously by people, and you have the capacity to hurt feelings uintentionally by whom you do or don't pay attention to, or by what you say. Why would you seek that?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, I was actually kidding.
I know that I'm not, and it doesn't bother me. I actually have never thought of it before.
Perhaps I should insert a into that comment? I thought it would be obvious as a joke, but considering. . . Well, I'm not always as funny in the way I come across as I think I am when . . . Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"CT is considered a pillar, and I think she has specifically said she would prefer not to be thought of that way."
Well, in all fairness, Sara's not a normative example; I don't think she'd be comfortable dying before she could a) save the entire world and b) erase all evidence of her existence from the universe. She's almost aggressively selfless.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I'm a pillar.
<-- pure lime-stoney goodness.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Icky, That's like asking why people would want to be a revered leader. There are plenty of benefits. Leto was able to get away with some pretty egregious crap without being called on it because he was a pillar of the community. I think you tend to get more, not less leeway.
The major costs (and some of the major benefis) come from you not being a normal human being to other people. Check out any of the "We Miss Ralphie" threads and you can see this. It's like "We hope Ralphie comes back so that she can entertain us again." Get into that trap and people expect you to just give and generally don't try to see more of you than what you are giving and they don't see you as someone who wants or sometimes needs to be given in return. Often times, people finding you superior leads them to label themselves inferior and think that nothing they give can be interesting or valuable (and actually depending on what you're looking for that can be a good thing or a bad one).
But on the other hand, attention, power, and adoration can be heady things.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Coming into the Hatrack Community is a lot like starting your freshman year of high school in a completely new town.
So Hatrack is hell?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
High school didn't suck for everyone...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I refuse to believe that.
[ January 13, 2005, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I liked high school!
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
You know I designed the foundation on which the pillar of Icarus stands.
No sinkholes under Joe, no sir.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Me too. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
*eyes insecure pillar uneasily*
*shifts computer out from under*
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I prefer columns to pillars.
I prefer porches to stoops.
I prefer butter pecan to rocky road.
Mmmm. . . ice cream.
Edit: three hunnert.
[ January 13, 2005, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quid, I would have figured you were kidding, had you used no smilie whatsoever. But you used the sad smilie! Have you no decency? I mean, come on! Look at this guy: Who doesn't immediately want to hug this little guy and figure out what's wrong?
Bah.
Smilie abuser.
See if I ever take your smilies seriously again.
-o-
Okay, squick, that makes sense. As far as getting away with crap, yeah, Leto got away with crap. But I remember when Sara got ticked off, immediately there were people saying, essentially, Look at your so-called pillar. All of her virtue is just a sham. People give power to those they consider superior or whatever, but some people also take delight in ripping such people off of their pedestals. For Sara, it was the pedestal or the pillory. She couldn't just be. Couldn't just get pissed off or whatever.
I'm feeling uncomfortable talking about other people, but I'm not sure how else to discuss this except by example. So I won't stop, but I apologize if I get it wrong or offend anybody.
quote:Get into that trap and people expect you to just give and generally don't try to see more of you than what you are giving and they don't see you as someone who wants or sometimes needs to be given in return.
See? That's why I'm not a pillar. I don't really give anything. I am not the Funny. I am not the Helpful. I'm not the Knowledgeable. I'm just the Blandly Nice. I entertain nobody. I take at least as much as I give. Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
You're the Blandly Nice Pillar.
[ January 13, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I hate to say it, but I think the different reactions to Sara's humanity and Leto's rants were sexist in origin.
I try not to call sexist unless I really think it's a factor, but our exalted females tend to be angels and our exalted males tend to be warriors. In that sense, it makes perfect sense for the reactions to come as they did. It makes sense, not that I agree with it. Watching what happened with CT and Ralphie reinforces my decision a thousand times to never become a pillar - and considering Tom called me the female Leto, that probably won't happen anytime soon anyway.
[ January 13, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Coming into the Hatrack Community is a lot like starting your freshman year of high school in a completely new town.
I guess that makes me a super-senior...
All joking aside, I completely understand how difficult it is to fit in here. Quite often, I still feel like I don't. Yeah, right, after almost five and a half years, how could I not fit in? "Fitting in" is all how you see yourself here. I don't see myself as part of a core group or a clique, and yes, sometimes that annoys me. The people who are "in" are, like, tight, man. They know each other. They talk regularly outside of Hatrack. They don't have to repeat basic information about themselves to their intended audience. They don't always have to produce credibility first in order to be heard. Think about it, we'll jump all over someone who just registered claiming to know something demanding sources a lot faster than an established member (alright, mostly...).
It's rather sad, really. And I can definitely see how that would make people not want to be here.
As for me (woo! Back to the pity party!)... it could just come down to the excuses of "Not wanting to sound the broken record" or "Not wanting to start an argument," or it could be more that I just don't actually know anyone here. I've met three of you and talked to one on the telephone. Years ago. It's almost as if anyone who doesn't go to a gathering is outside the "Circle of Trust."
This isn't enough to make me leave. There's always the hope of getting "in" that drives me. And there's everything I learn here. I've been here for ages, I am here now, and Zeus knows I'll be here forever.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
kat, there's logic in what you say, and yet . . .
Couldn't the different reactions have been based on the different prior behavior? I mean--
Gosh, I've already offended (perhaps) one or two or three people in this thread. Maybe I should just quit while I'm less behind.
--I consider John a friend, but who hasn't been ripped a new one by John at some point (unless you just never post in a serious thread? So maybe people put up with him because it was in character, not because he is a guy?
It might just be that if you're a pillar, you must never break character. If John had turned all sweetness and light, would we have been weirded out, and maybe not taken him seriously? Would we have been always waiting for the other shoe, and therefore never considered his niceness sincere?
Who else gets thrown for a second every time the phony Slash comes around scattering flower petals?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*checks Carrie's profile* You live in Madison!! You should come to the ElJay's Henna Party. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've seen you as a bit of a Hatrack icon for years kat.
Who are the exhalted warriors you're talking about? John and Slash leap to mind, but no one else does. Tom's a pillar, but while he's certainly capable of ripping someone a new one it isn't really his modus operandi or anything. Icarus is a pillar despite his protestations to the contrary, and it's basically for being a kind person. Bob is a pillar, but he's the Pillar of Funny. I've seen him get pissed, but who hasn't gotten pissed here at some point or another? He certainly isn't some warrior type.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:They don't have to repeat basic information about themselves to their intended audience. They don't always have to produce credibility first in order to be heard. Think about it, we'll jump all over someone who just registered claiming to know something demanding sources a lot faster than an established member (alright, mostly...).
I expected this, when I was new. If long-standing people aren't given some more leeway than new people, then is it really a community? If Dag says something about the law, he has already proven his expertise, and I will take it seriously. If some stranger does, I expect his argument to be more supported.
I'm not sure this is hypocrisy.
I wonder why anybody would find that offensive unless what they wanted was in. And if you don't have to earn that sense of belonging, at least a little bit, then is it real?
(I'm not being defensive, btw, I'm discussing.)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:It's almost as if anyone who doesn't go to a gathering is outside the "Circle of Trust."
Nah, I don't buy that. I've never been to a gathering. I've never met a hatracker in real life, period. I still feel like a full fledged member of the community though.
Actually, I really like where I stand in the Hatrack community. I feel that I'm fairly widely known, generally liked, but have managed to avoid becoming a pillar. I can just come here and hang out with a huge group of people whose company I enjoy.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
If Bob got really pissed and really told someone off, would we be as freaked by it?
I kind of think we would.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:Who are the exhalted warriors you're talking about?
Hmm...I don't think you need to be belligerent to be a warrior. CT fits both the angel and warrior, since she has knowledge, willingness to research, and devestating logic on her side, but she's so overwhelmingly nice and apologetic about crushing someone's argument to dust that it doesn't feel like the devestation it is.
However, Mr. Squicky, Dag, Tom, Leto, The Pixiest, uh....(*frantically racks brain for who else posts in the serious, which she doesn't at the moment and has a horrible memory for personal events - once forgot own birthday*), Kwea...forgive me for those I'm leaving out - I think all of them get away with more crap because they are so often in opposition to those to whom they are speaking. It's usually respectful, intelligent opposition, but when it isn't, they are less likely to be called on it. The exception to that trend in the list above is...The Pixiest. Female.
quote:If Bob got really pissed and really told someone off, would we be as freaked by it?
I remember Bob getting mad - not to the point of swearing, but definitely upset. It was so weird I think the entire post was ignored completely.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Watching what happened with CT and Ralphie reinforces my decision a thousand times to never become a pillar - and considering Tom called me the female Leto, that probably won't happen anytime soon anyway."
*polite cough* It's not possible to be the female Leto without also being a pillar, Katie.
---
And Carrie, you DO live within, like, a half hour of my house, right? Why don't you drop by?
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I agree with Noemon - although obviously having been around for a shorter period.
I haven't met anyone here, due to the whole Australia thing. However, I still feel I belong.
That said - there are some things I feel sidelined by, but I think that is because I am not American, not because I don't belong. That's as little as not celebrating Thanksgiving to stuff like no-one considering me a legal source - although I graduate law school gaurenteed second top (and might still be top) from my year this July.
But it doesn't really bother me - mostly, I'm happy to be here.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
kat, you're totally a pillar, so deal with it. It was obvious from the moment I joined.
Carrie, if you want to, I would certainly love to have you come for the henna party. It's the weekend of February 19th, and there are other people coming from Madison you could catch a ride with. On the other hand, I'm not saying "Hey, just come to my gathering and then you'll be in and not feel like this anymore. I just think it would be fun to have you.)
I think a big part of it comes down to post count. Not because we look up to people with high post count, but because they talk so much we know and remember stuff about them. So no, they don't have to reintroduce themselves, except for occasionally to newbies... the rset of us know it already, because they're flippin' always posting. (Verrrrry aware of my own posting habits, right here.)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:If Bob got really pissed and really told someone off, would we be as freaked by it?
I've seen Bob get really pissed before. It's rare, but it happens. When it does happen I do tend to be kind of startled by it, but as a result of its rarity I tend to take it more seriously than I would if, say, John were to blow his top over something.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I remember meeting Carrie and thinking, "Hey, she's a great person. I look forward to seeing her at the next gathering."
And then she wasn't at the next gathering, or the one after that, and I remember thinking, "Gee, I must have smelled really, really bad."
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
lol, and Carrie's parents live somewhere near Green Bay and she's a massive Packer's fan and kicks everyone's butt at football picks. Can't remember her major at college though. AJ
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I don't think it's so much offensive as it is annoying. (And really, I should specify that I'm speaking more from a lurker-feeling-n00bish perspective than anything else.) I do agree that a place in any community should be earned, but don't a lot of people first getting here want to be in? If they didn't want to be "in" - or at least a part of the community - why else would they be here attempting to have a discussion? It might be the more accusatory tone commonly taken with the more... inexperienced... members which led me to find a smidgeon of hypocrisy there, but re-thinking it leads me to agree with you, Ic, on the pure-n00b level. As a former lurker, it gets extraordinarily annoying.
And Tom... I met you? Really? Maybe it was that long ago... Anyhow, I don't stop by because I haven't really got transportation (ah, the life of a student).
Edit: Must... defend... massive... Yes, I'll cheer for them, but please understand, I'd be disowned if I didn't! And besides, it's nice to see investments do well.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Carrie ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So Carrie, if Tom *promises* to use deodorant before the next get together, will you go?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:And Tom... I met you? Really? Maybe it was that long ago...
Ouch.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, I know. I'm actually writhing in agony.
IIRC, Carrie, you were at the first-ever Hatrack gathering I ever attended, at the Mexican place on west University. By the time we had the second one at Noodles, though, you had vanished.
And don't let transportation be an issue. If you ever want to run into any of us, a lack of a car will not be a problem.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
kat, I don't really think you have the standing to talk about other people getting away with a lot of crap. Over the course of your Hatrack career, you may have been cut less slack than Leto, but it's a near thing.
Icky, You know, I even think I was around when Sara went off, but I really don't remember much about it. That is a good point though. There is sort of a yin-yang sort of thing, where the active can get away with stuff but the receptive and nurturing are held to a higher standard. There is definitely a dark resentment side to most forms of adoration and you know, if Sara did something wrong, she'd be a pretty easy target to get a lot of milage out of it, unlike say me, who if I thought I did something wrong would appologize and then expect to move on.
---
I don't think that the first year of high school is all that apt an analogy, especially considering the majority view here of high school as being some sort of hell. I think a better image would be showing up at a party where you don't know anyone. You're just looking for someone to talk to, but it can be hard to break into any of the groups.
One of the big things that I see with newcomers is that they're just not taken seriously. Yes, they're saying things that have been said before and they're not being all that insightful or interesting, but that's generally how people enter situations like that. They're throwing out the equivilent of small talk.
Imagine if you got up the courage to introduce yourself to people at a party and they started laughing about one of their in-jokes based off of something you said.
Or you show up, people all give you a hearty welcome and a hug and then don't talk to you again for the rest of the evening. That semes to me to be many newcomers experience here. You can get people to welcome you, but the welcomes don't really mean anything. Anybody will get welcomed, with approximately the same amount of interest.
Of course, I don't actually care about this. I don't welcome people or generally post in things like landmark threads because I'm not interested in the social community aspects of Hatrack. I try to support quality when I'm in the mood to and most of the time, newcomers aren't overtly bringing anything to the table that interests me.
The thing is, if you are interested in fostering a welcoming community, you need to not focus on what you're getting out of a newcomer, but instead on making them feel a part of the community. At parties, that's often my role, as I have a talent for people. There's plenty of ways to go about doing this, but they are generally less comfortable and nowhere near as much fun as I could be having in a group of my friends. But at the end, you've got someone who is integrated into the gorup and feels comfortable there and that's good for hem and for the party in general.
I'm not trying to criticize. I'm just trying to say, remember, for them it's like coming to a party where you don't know anyone. Treat them the way you'd like to be treated in that situation.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Actually, I was never at a Mexican place with Hatr... Jatraqueros. I was at the mini-one with Jeni, Sara, and Sev at the Union.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I don't really think you have the standing to talk about other people getting away with a lot of crap. Over the course of your Hatrack career, you may have been cut less slack than Leto, but it's a near thing."
On the contrary. Along with me, David Bowles, and a few others -- including you, Squicky -- kat is in fact uniquely qualified to talk about people getting away with a lot of crap.
"I don't welcome people or generally post in things like landmark threads because I'm not interested in the social community aspects of Hatrack."
I don't buy that one, Squick. You're not interested in participating in the social community aspects, largely due to sour grapes, but you spend almost all your time posting about 'em.
-------
Hm. I may be projecting an idealized Carrie onto the screen of my memory, then. I wonder who it was that was conspicuously absent from Noodles, because I distinctly remember missing that person. *taps fingers together contemplatively and stares off into space*
[ January 13, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:kat, I don't really think you have the standing to talk about other people getting away with a lot of crap. Over the course of your Hatrack career, you may have been cut less slack than Leto, but it's a near thing.
Hmm...you know, I actually had a last paragraph to that post that I deleted. It consisted of the following:
quote:The other exceptions to the above consist of Mr. Squicky and Tom (in religion threads), but that's because I noticed this trend a long time ago and it annoyed me, so I call it because of that. I consider that to be a tainted sample.
Maybe I should have left it in?
quote:On the contrary. Along with me, David Bowles, and a few others -- including you, Squicky -- kat is in fact uniquely qualified to talk about people getting away with a lot of crap.
Ouch - dang it - this is another reason to avoid pillar status. There's so much more freedom there. *sigh* And I've been so good lately.
Added: I feel like I need to make some sort of pillar/pilloried joke here.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
When I joined, I noticed Kat getting called on things that others were doing and not getting called on in the same thread, within a few posts of Kat. Even to the extent of getting called on things the person calling her on was doing.
I have no idea if any of those others were male or female, so I can't speak to the sexism theory. But there was a disparity, and it wasn't in Kat's favor.
And Kat, you were a well-established pillar by the time I got here.
Dagonee
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
I realize that the worm has turned, turned again, zig zagged, done a little dance, been bisected with a garden trowel, has crawled off in separate directions, and been used as bait since Kwea posted this, but...
quote: If that contributed to you leaving, I am sorry. I saw a few of your posts and thought you were pretty cool, but I don't think I said that...it is like someone already sadi...if we don't disagree with you then the point was probably well recieved...
It's not like I have been offended or anything by Hatrack (which is not to say that I was never offended by anything on Hatrack, of course I have been offended, but certainly not by you, and not enough to be driven away). I just felt Hatrack wasn't the right place for me at the moment, for the reasons delineated.
I was once named "most consistently useless poster" in a Usenet group. That wasn't even offensive. Okay, well maybe a little offensive, but I didn't cry or anything. And kept posting.
I wouldn't have even said anything but ElJay asked me to, and I figured a thorough explanation was perhaps informative for people wondering about why some people might feel left out.
I don't really want to go on any more about this, personally, since I want any future posting by myself to be a non-event. I didn't leave in a huff, just wandered off.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"When I joined, I noticed Kat getting called on things that others were doing and not getting called on in the same thread, within a few posts of Kat."
*nod* I remember that whole flap. I even tried to moderate it through E-mail, IIRC, because I was so disappointed in the way some users were acting.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*hugs Dag* There's a reason I don't post in the serious threads, and it's not because I do not think serious thoughts.
I don't think it's personal. I do, however, think it is sexist.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If it's any consolation, Katie, I don't think it was sexist -- in your case -- as much as it was personal. The people who went after you that time did so because they felt personally betrayed by your position on a given topic, and harped on specifics of your conversation because they were unwilling to be honest with themselves about the nature of their objections. It was precisely because they cared about your personal opinion that your opinion, when voiced, became repellent to them; it's the same reaction you see when people learning OSC's position on gay marriage visit Hatrack for the first time and feel the need to share with us.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You're not allowed to be a pillar unless you are still using the first sign on name you joined with.
Scott R, who just figured out that kat is Lady J. Go, Joe!
EDIT: Rats, not Lady J, but Lady Jane. Fiddlestix.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'd personally say that even though we clearly disagree on quite a few issuess Katie and I have become relatively close friends partially as a result of that flap. I think there are several other people also who as a result respect her for standing up for what she believes even if they disagree.
*hugs Kat and Tom*
AJ
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
First one I created or oldest one I happen to own?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: I wouldn't have even said anything but ElJay asked me to, and I figured a thorough explanation was perhaps informative...
Plus I plied him with alcohol.
Well, okay, not really.
You may now continue your serious discussion.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Ah, crap, I'm still logged in as a dragon. Or a man. Or something.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Maybe you're a dragon-man. With wing-a-lings.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Wing-a-ling-dingle!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Mission. Quest. Thing.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
you did *not* just say dingle! are you trying to start that fad again? Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I couldn't help myself, it just seemed to go, and it was what popped into my head!
/tangent/ One of my favorite children's fantasies was "The Last of the Really Great Whangdoodles" reccommended by Mr. Daniels my favorite librarian.
AJ
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Ooo, I read that! And I own it now. I wonder if my kids are old enough to appreciate it....
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
So, if someone used to be a pillar, and then they come in with a new screen name, they have gone from pillar to poster?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Watching what happened with CT and Ralphie reinforces my decision a thousand times to never become a pillar.
Wait... what happened with Ralphie?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
*Sniff* It was horrible, what happened to Ralphie. I mean the you-know, and that-awful-thing-there, and the can't-forget-about-that!
Terrible tragedy. Rilly.
-Bok
[ January 13, 2005, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
That's terrible!
What happened next?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: The major costs (and some of the major benefis) come from you not being a normal human being to other people. Check out any of the "We Miss Ralphie" threads and you can see this. It's like "We hope Ralphie comes back so that she can entertain us again." Get into that trap and people expect you to just give and generally don't try to see more of you than what you are giving and they don't see you as someone who wants or sometimes needs to be given in return.
Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
Tom - Noodles and the Mexican place were on the same day, before and after a movie. Carrie was at neither, unfortunately. The person who didn't show up that day was xnera, I think.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Icarus - Oh, right.
Well, there was some drama referred to CT (which I missed, cause I miss everything), so I was wondering if I'd just forgotten about my drama. Which is entirely possible, what with this temporal lobe epilepsy and all.
btw - If it's of interest whether someone as histrionic and simultaneously 'revered' as I could recover... I no longer feel the need to entertain anyone or be well-loved. I'm enjoying Hatrack a lot more just doing my thang. I guess you could say that these days I'm a donkey on the edge.
edit: To address Icarus, cause stupid Jeni is always in the stupid way.
[ January 13, 2005, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Well, there's that, Ralphie, and you don't use the same AIM name anymore, I think. I find limiting AIM exposure lowers your chances of becoming a virtual 30-foot phallically-inspired granite thing.
-Bok
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I just don't sign on to AIM anymore, Bok.
But tell me more about that granite thing.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Way to brag that you know the super secret new AIM identity.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
hmm . . . so either it was a bluff to impress the rest of us, or Ralphie is trying to undo the damage . . . .
verrrrry interesting . . . .
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
No, seriously. I sign on to AIM, like, once every three months. I still have it, and sometimes it will sign on automatically, but I've made a conscious decision NOT to chat.
I don't need any further time-sucking distractions. I'm already an incorrigible time waster.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Okay, fine! I can't take your intense questioning anymore, Icarus! Ralphie and I are part of a vast Congregationalist-JW interbreeding program. We use Hatrack as a communication device. I know all 144,000 of Ralphie's AIM names, it's true.
I'm sorry Ralphie. SO sorry! *cry*
-Bok
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Cheeky.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I'm not sure what exactly gave me that feeling (that I totally don't belong here.) No specific post. More an overall surprise that people here even think being cool is important, or being "in", or popular, or whatever. Who cares about that stuff? Does anyone think the popular people in school were the ones with the most real awesomeness? Or that famous celebrities (if you want to go to the adult, real-life, world) are the people who are most admirable in our society? Does anyone really aspire to that? That just seems so unimportant. I always thought hatrack was more than that.
The reason I want us to be nice to everyone is so the people with real awesomeness won't be driven away before we even get to know them. I think we have no idea how many really amazing people we may lose that way. People who are like this:
quote: Humility means that one should not be anxious to have the satisfaction of being honored by others... Nonviolence means not to put others into distress... Tolerance means that one should be practiced to bear insult and dishonor from others... Simplicity meant that without diplomacy, one should be so straightforward that one can disclose the real truth even to an enemy... Steadiness means that one should be very determined to make spiritual (or personal) progress... Self control means that one should not accept anything which is detrimental to the path of spiritual (or personal) progress.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Noodles and the Mexican place were on the same day, before and after a movie."
Egad. So what was the other gathering?
I am now certifiably old and dotty.
--------
"I always thought hatrack was more than that.
The reason I want us to be nice to everyone is so the people with real awesomeness won't be driven away before we even get to know them."
Anne Kate, the precise reason that newbies might be driven away occasionally is that even the people with real awesomeness aren't always "more than that" (i.e. immune to feelings of insecurity and/or desirous of popularity.)
[ January 13, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Tatiana- I think it's because the popular people on hatrack ARE really awesome people. And there's no shame in wanting to be popular when the popular people are truly the kind of people you want to be.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:More an overall surprise that people here even think being cool is important, or being "in", or popular, or whatever. Who cares about that stuff?
When I took improv comedy classes, in the very first class they addressed the issue of 'status'. Because in improv you have to become a character and develop the scene from that, you have to understand a few fundamental basics of human interaction, one of those being that the VAST majority of people, when introduced to anyone else, immediately surmise that person's status in relation to both themselves and "the world" as they see it. In comedy, they stated that it's very satisfying for people too see characters that they perceive as low status to be raised to the highest status of the scene, and those of the highest status to be brought low. So, the stereotypical Quik-E-Mart East Indian guy becomes the smartest, funniest, highest status character in the scene, and the bloated white male TV executor is the least powerful, the lowest status, in the scene.
I found it interesting at the time, but then I began to understand just how much status influences our thinking. And I also realized that people do it entirely subconsciously. It is a fundamental, natural inclination to not only rank your status among others, but to assign people both a higher and lower status than you. And, while in comedy it's satisfying to see people switch status, in real life the heiarchy is most doggedly protected by those that have assigned it.
That's why people will make a butt full of excuses for "pillars," and only very slowly accept flack from newbies. It seems to me that, to some, breaking this heirachy is undermining the entire community dynamic, and then where do your leaders go?
Personally, I have a hard time with social heirarchy even though I generally benefit from it. I find it unnecessary and frequently hypocritical, and I hate what it does to me - it makes me start needing attention and kudos that aren't rightfully mine. But I still understand that it's just GOING to happen. It takes individual, psychological surgery to remove the element of status and I can't see how that's going to happen.
But that's just life. People will always be concerned with what's cool, who's "in", who's who in the social heirarchy. And that includes newbies, who are often seeking the attention from these people specifically, not just people 'in general'.
And to be honest, we aren't going to catch all the potentially cool newbies, anyway. They may not like our banter, they may not like the topics talked about. They may hate the smileys. If they require immediate acknowledgement, the reality is that there are just TOO many registered users to have everyone give everyone else personal attention. So, people tend to recognize those they're already familiar with, and a smart newbie will see this, not as a personal affront, but rather the natural course of a community with 6000+ posters.
There is more of an effort to encourage and welcome newbies here than I've EVER seen on any other intelligent forum. Period. Sometimes feeling 'comfortable' is the responsibility of the person who feels out of place. Of course, the users here will not be perfectly objective, and sometimes someone comes in with guns blazing and people react. Sometimes someone comes in and makes the smallest ripple, and people just don't see. It's GOING to happen.
I have to say, considering that Hatrack remains my favorite place on the web ever Ever EVAR, the natural selection process in place is - in my opintion - actually very successful.
[ January 13, 2005, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think ugliness or pettiness can turn off anyone, and many of the most truly awesome people I know are also so humble that they aren't immune to insecurity.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Ralphie, thanks for that post. I don't think I understand status at all in human interactions. I think I prefer to have none. Not sure why. Maybe because it doesn't mean anything to me. Or maybe because the people who turn out to be the most awesome people I know are quite often those who don't call attention to themselves.
[ January 13, 2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I agree.
I also am very turned off by status-assigning, even though I've done it the majority of my life. I'm still working on it, but I like to think I've become pretty fair-minded.
And status aside, all interaction is give and take. At some point in a lasting relationship you give as much as you take, and you get to take as much as you give. But it's a balancing act, and that can take time.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: More an overall surprise that people here even think being cool is important, or being "in", or popular, or whatever. Who cares about that stuff? Does anyone think the popular people in school were the ones with the most real awesomeness?
I think there is a big difference between wanting to be popular and wanting to be respected and cared about. Most people stay here because they find the second. And for those who don't, I am sorry, and I hope I haven't done anything to add to that.
Back to the school analogy, many of us realize that being the "most popular" kid in school was probably not all it was cracked up to be. But who wanted to be the kid who had *no* friends? There is room for middle ground here, and I think that is a good place to be.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: That's why people will make a butt full of excuses for "pillars," and only very slowly accept flack from newbies.
I always thought it was like how you are more forgiving of weakness in your friends and don't take kindly to flack from a complete stranger.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I assign myself super-duper status!
-Bok
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
My son gets super-pooper status.
Posted by Lisha-princess (Member # 6966) on :
I *hated* high school.
quote: Hobbes cooks?! I'm in! (assuming he cooks well)
OH, but he does. Sometimes I go to his apartment around dinner time and hope there will be extras. Ok, I don't really do that intentionally. But it happened twice last weekend, and oh the joy it was!
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Tatiana, 'status' is only another word for the judgement almost everybody forms about people they interact with. Not everone's criteria are the same, but in general enough people are in reasonable agreement so that a consensus can be formed.
It is only tangentially related to calling attention to oneself in that before 'status' can be assigned, attention must be paid to the qualities being judged. You consider certain people 'awesome'. Clearly you assign those people higher 'status' than those who aren't equally awesome. That those people don't draw attention to themselves speak only to your personal scale of judging status and that you, outside of a forum setting, has greater opportunities to discover the awesomeness that isn't immediately perceived in a purely textual environment.
[ January 13, 2005, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
So, what's my 'status'? Although I heard it spoken of many times indirectly... I need to get this clear, as opinions about me change daily... Naturally...
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I don't know what I mean at all.
Just that hatrack had seemed to be one place I DID belong, but I think this means maybe that I don't belong anywhere.
I'll have to think about this.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tatiana, you absolutely *do* belong here. I don't mean this in a *patpat* sort of way, by the way. You just...do.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Tatiana, Noemon is right. You... just belong .
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
As I said before, Anne Kate, in my opinion you're a very essential part of a very essential balancing act here. It would be a dark day if you left Hatrack.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
If I remained, you should. Full stop. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: So, what's my 'status'? Although I heard it spoken of many times indirectly... I need to get this clear, as opinions about me change daily... Naturally...
I dub thee... numbnuts.
I'll let you know when it changes.
(You asked.)
Posted by Tink (Member # 7267) on :
Wow, what an interesting discussion. In my (checks watch) 25 or so hours on the board here, I've been pleasantly surprised by the warm welcome I've already received from a lot of you.
I've been a part of a close group of friends before that was considered a clique by others. It wasn't that we didn't welcome anyone else, but we really enjoyed each other's company and humor, and we did have inside jokes that probably made others feel left out. Actually, I came to that group a few years late (thanks, Porter), but came to feel as much a part of it as anyone - just by sticking around and persisting, because I liked what I saw.
My take on this community so far is similar to my reaction upon first encountering that tightly-knit group of friends (one of whom I married!) - it will take time and I may not get all the jokes or be taken seriously at first, but it sure seems worth the effort to stick around. (:
(My only gripe is that there are no avatars, and I'm a highly visual person - it's hard to remember who's who with just a name! Forgive me if I mix one of you up with someone else!)
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Well, I hope you integrate better than me... Don't argue Christianity on Easter, my only advice...
[ January 13, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
JH, attention-whore is thy name.
space opera
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
*clins to anne kate's skirt* Don't go!! Don't, don't, don't. You DO belong here - you're the fairy godmother, I think. Our resident Emily Dickenson. You're not part of the pecking order, and we NEED you. *hug*
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: JH, attention-whore is thy name.
The hard way...
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: So, what's my 'status'?
Why, you're the Hatrack Puppy Dog, of course.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: Hatrack Puppy Dog
Woof. How did you get there?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
You are very eager, social, friendly, with big, wet, doggie kisses, charging off in one direction with all the exuberance of a puppy. But when you are chastised you immediately do the puppy dog apology. On the belly, "I'm sorry! Sorry! Won't do it again! Can I get your slippers for you? Do you still like me?"
It's kinda cute, in a puppy-dog-sort-of-way.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
That's the first time I'm happy to be called a canine! (((B/beverly)))
Sorry, won't do that again! Meta-apologies to R (*fighting urge to put /r*)ivka
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
See? You're so cute. And you've got puppy-dog-eyes power.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
*Chases tailbone* *Gets dizzy*
Cuteness, for an adolescent, rare.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I still prefer "numbnuts."
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
"Numbnuts" is catchy, I'll grant you that. Maybe a bit less accurate though.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
"Nuts", okay. Why "numb"?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
It's like hitting your little brother on the back of the head every time you walk by. It's not an entirely accurate expression of how you feel, but you know it's ultimately for their own good.
It's a sign of love.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I beat up my big brothers, does that count.
I *love* you too, Ralphie. (Sarcasm, platonicism.)
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Don't get too excited there, Howard, you'll make a mess all over the carpet.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Irony, does that prove better of my traits?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote: it will take time and I may not get all the jokes or be taken seriously at first, but it sure seems worth the effort to stick around. (:
Glad you think so! You'll get some of the in-jokes in time. I should probably go bump some of the old fun threads, like the Uruk-Haiku and the Billtmas thread (with link to Bev's landmark so the newbies don't get confused.)
quote:Forgive me if I mix one of you up with someone else!)
If you mix me up with, say, Icarus, I'll actually thank you. That won't help him feel any more secure though.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: I may not get all the jokes
I still don't!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Neither do I. Oh well. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I AM the joke, baby!
edit: Wait, that dinnit come out right...
[ January 13, 2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
*sigh*
I wish the joke was on me...
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
With reason, Raphael.
EDIT: Why, Bob? You're a cool person! You're above the level of jokables! You're a step higher (as far as I'm concerned; too sophisticated for my jokes).
[ January 13, 2005, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: *sigh*
I wish the joke was on me...
ROWR!
I'll sign on to AIM for a few minutes if you will.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
AIM? Is that what kids are calling it these days?
I'm already there.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
So, um, your response to finding out that Hatrack is more heterogenous than you had imagined is to wonder if you should leave it, thus making it less heterogenous? It seems that what I perceive as Hatrack's strength is what you perceive as it's weakness. But I think you're wrong, because there wouldn't be room for all of the downtrodden you like to raise up if Hatrack were not heterogenous. It's precisely because of this that you do belong here. You leaving would weaken the place considerably.
[ January 13, 2005, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, Tatiana is ak?
I get so confuzzled. I have a lousy memory - far far lousier than probably any of you can imagine - and when y'all go switching identities, I get even more confuzzled.
Sigh. I need a memory pill. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Ha ha! quidscribis, you are such a kidder! Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Oh, come on, icky. You couldn't have posted that as megachi-whatever?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Icky - I wasn't kidding. Yes, it's usually a safe bet that I am kidding most of the time. But I wasn't this time. Had I figured out before that they were the same person? My memory really is that bad. Ask Fahim - he'll agree with me.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Wait -- quidscribis and Fahim aren't the same person?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Sigh.
Nope. Fahim is da hubby. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm the heretic.
I can see no reason for staying a Jatraquero if you feel the community is not meeting your expectations.
I see no reason to go about encouraging a person to stay who's obviously unhappy here.
I roll my eyes at goodbye thread(t?)s that complain about how Hatrack isn't meeting such and such a personal need, or how Hatrack has changed, or how blah, blah, blah, yackety, on-and-on. What they mostly boil down to is this:
"Convince me to stay."
But why should we? You've shown by the creation of such a thread, or post, that you doubt the community, and instead of working to alter it, you're ready to leave. It shows unfaith.
Or maybe a passive aggressive desire for praise, for which I'll admit a certain personal weakness.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong-- maybe 'Farewell, I don't like Hatrack/Hatrack don't like me' threads are just the subconscious bubbling up of a will to change this site, and are the only way it CAN be changed.
I have serious doubts about that, though.
"I don't belong here." No, maybe you don't. Maybe you can find happy virtual connections with other people. Go find 'em, and I wish you my sincerest best wishes. If you're unhappy, for Heaven's sake, get out and go find happiness somehow! Why are you hanging around this place, which you have no faith in, and which brings you unhappiness?
HOWEVER--
If you have faith in Hatrack, stay and address the problems you see.
I'm done.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Icky, was I3 the downtrodden? <confused> I'm not talking about doing any sort of patronizing raising up of anyone. I guess I'm just thinking that if we are kind to everyone even if they seem different than us, and if we try to listen to what they are actually saying... what they really mean... without hostility ... or petty sniping ... and if we are welcoming ... that it will enrich all of us and the board as a whole. We don't own hatrack. We have no right to stake any claims here. Any new person who posts has exactly as much right to be here as we do.
New people are the life blood of this place. If we allow ourselves to grow insular and prickly to outsiders, then we will not last as a community. And the sort of people who aren't "in crowd" folks are often the very ones who have the most interesting thoughts and personal qualities. The very people from whom we have the most to learn.
I'm not cool. I'm not part of the "in" crowd. Nor do I aspire to be. The fun and banter, and all the in jokes are great. I love to read them and take part when I can. They spread a lot of happiness around, and make hatrack an entertaining place. But the sort of jokes that have the point of "we're cool and you aren't", or "get out of our clubhouse, squirt" weren't a happy thing for anyone even in middle school. And we're not middle school aged anymore. We're securer than that, and more open to new things. We aren't so afraid of someone who's different, or of being known to associate with someone weird or uncool, are we? We don't get our own sense of self worth from thinking how much better we are than someone else, and we don't require rigid conformity to our familiar ways. At least I hope we don't.
I just keep being reminded of the wolf children on the playground in Ender's fantasy game. If that's how things are here then I know I really don't belong.
[ January 14, 2005, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Any new person who posts has exactly as much right to be here as we do."
And this is where we part ways, Anne Kate -- in a way.
I think people prove themselves worthy of my association -- and I'm only going to speak here for myself, because I can't speak for all of Hatrack -- by the manner in which they conduct themselves.
If they conduct themselves inappropriately, I will tell them. If they do not subsequently change their conduct, they will eventually lose the pleasure of my association.
There is a distinction between giving someone the benefit of the doubt -- in other words, conceding that their motives might not have been disruptive ones -- and condoning their behavior. I do the former, but I often see you (from my perspective) advocating the latter.
There is no shame in standards, nor inherent smugness in the recognition of an elite status. Should we not have, say, a Fulbright Scholarship because not everyone can win it? I think there's a distinction between the Hatrack in-jokes -- which basically say "I am part of this group, and it is cool" -- and what you're suggesting, which is that implicit in that statement is "I am part of this cool group, and you are not." I think it's clear, from what a few posters on this thread have said, that sometimes these jokes are interpreted in this way -- but I think it's equally clear that they're not meant in this way.
More than any other community -- real-world or virtual -- I've ever seen, Hatrack makes a real effort to be inclusive of just about anyone. There are those who need a fair bit of sanding before they'd fit in, but we take what I think is a fairly mature and surgical approach to that: we identify them immediately, nudge them -- often very blatantly -- towards what we consider minimum standards of behavior, and then, once those standards are met, embrace them as much as they're willing to be embraced.
In my experience, everyone is as accepted by Hatrack as they want to be.
[ January 14, 2005, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
ak, that is only one way of looking at it....try it this way....
We all make judgments of others, not necessarily who is good and bad or smart and dumb, but at the least who we like and who we don't, or who has similar views and who has differing views than our own. It is part of human nature to group and categorize things, it is how we remember. We sort and sift through things, and grouping things together is the only way we can keep it all straight.
Every tine you call a friend to talk you have made a judgment...of who you would like to talk to. Every time you avoid someone because to find them dishonest, or argumentative...whatever the reason...you have made a judgment call.
I see new people come in here all the time and fairly quickly become valued members of this community. SO, quidscribs, bev and MPH...all of them are fairly new, but I feel like they have been here far longer than they have. Perhaps they weren't universially accepted right away....but why should they have been?
There is only so much time I can put into reading posts, and there is nothing wrong with me only reading and/or responding to the people I like, or arguing a point that matters to me but leaving other people/ points untouched.
I sure wasn't accepted right away, not by a long shot. Some people accepted me, like Ela, Jeni, BookWyrm...but most of the people here didn't even remember me when I would post, or is they did they thought I was someone else.
And some people actively discouraged me from posting, both by being rude to me and by e-mailing me. That was over the line, and I almost didn't come back...but as someone mentioned earlier, I am a bit of a fighter (verbally at least... ), so it wasn't in my nature to back down.
It probably made it MORE likely for me to stay around, to be honest. If someone doesn't like me I am fine with that...but if someone gets in my face about not liking me...well, that is a bit of a problem.
To further make my point....I just did it again.....every time I mentioned someone I made a judgment. There were quite a few people who influenced my decision to stay even if I didn't tell them I was considering leaving, but I couldn't mention the all, so I just threw out some names. I made a judgment call.
That doesn't mean the rest of them are forgotten....
ak, IMO you do belong here, more so than most...and more than one person has told you that in this thread so obviously I am not alone in feeling that way. I would be sorry to see you go, even though we don't bump into each other much. I see your posts, but once again since I often agree with you I don't usually comment on them.
I don't think the "pillars" have a lock on popularity, nor do I feel it is particularly important to be liked by everyone here at Hatrack. It is enough for me to know that I have a group of my own friends here who appreciate my posts, and hopefully me as a person. I don't need or want universal admiration, and to be honest I don't know anyone here who has received such. A few people have come pretty close, but even that is sometimes a burden.
I3:
quote: I don't really want to go on any more about this, personally, since I want any future posting by myself to be a non-event. I didn't leave in a huff, just wandered off.
No problem, I was just making sure.... I have taken a few breaks from here myself. I will see you later, when you come ambling back at your leisure.
Don't let ELJay liquor you up too bad, she might take advantage of you.
If you are lucky.
[ January 14, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I started typing this response at around 8:30, so my apologies if I tread over ground someone else has focused on.
I generally don't buy that that's what's going on, anne kate. With some unfortunate exceptions, I think that we are welcoming to new people when they are nice, and scornful when they are insulting. And I don't see a pressing need for that to change.
All the rest is varying levels of oversensitivity. I showed up and posted something, and somebody asked me to document my claims. I typed a long post without paragraph breaks, and people welomed me and asked me to consider paragraph breaks. I started a thread asking if Haley Joel Osment would play Ender, and people cracked jokes. I started a serious thread on how one political party or religious belief is clearly the position of hypocrites and idiots, and people confronted me about it. Waa. I don't think any of these things is horrible, or reasons for anybody to leave. They are Hatrack's way of telling you how to join the community.
I realize that you can cast what I just said as arrogant. You can argue that we have no business having any standards. We don't own the place, the Cards do. Let me explain what I mean. A community is more than a group of people. Any course in sociology will tell you that a community will naturally develop certain modes of communication, certain standards of behavior, and certain traditions and in-jokes (or rather, our in-jokes are our version of shared stories). The complaint I keep hearing from our more reasonable newer members is that they feel excluded because of our having these things. My reply to that is that if we did not have these things, you would still not feel like a part of the community, because there would not be a community for you to feel a part of. There would be a bunch of dry, factual posts, perhaps, but no personality and no continuity.
Beyond that, I would say that you have standards that you are trying to enforce as well. Our expectation the new members will take the time to proofread their posts, back up their claims, be patient with the forum stories they don't know, and not be too thin-skinned when they are told how to improve, is not morally different from your expectation that veteran members should be more welcoming. We are each exerting "ownership" of this place we do not own, just not neccessarily toward identical ends.
Your ends are undeniably more charitable than mine, anne kate. However, and this is a point I was trying to make before, I think we need forces pulling in a variety of directions in order to get anything worthwhile here. (Talk about unwelcoming, I am saying that we need both your view and mine, but you are saying that if we are not exactly how you would like to see us be, then either there is not room here for you, or there is not room here for people like me.) We need somebody endeavoring to make Hatrack a nicer place. It would be a mistake to shut out such a voice, but I don't believe we have done that. But where we disagree is that I believe we also need somebody raising expectations. I see this as a quality place, with entertaining and intelligent discourse. I don't think that's invulnerable. I think the level of discourse can and historically has been brought down. The result of that is countless quality people that have already left or drastically reduced their presence here. That has already happened--it is not a chicken-little prediction. I think if you make this place too welcoming to the OMG ender r0x0r 4ever cr0wd, it becomes less welcoming to other people. And yes, I make a choice. I have a preference. And I would prefer to leave a forum that does not welcome the quality posters who have been chased away. Fan forums are okay, but I did not join one. I was aware of the forums here, but I stayed away when I thought all they were about is OSC groupies. I joined when Bob convinced me there was more to it than that.
So we're damned either way. We can't create a forum that is welcoming to all people. I agree with you that it is a noble goal to try. I value your attempts to bring it about. But I think you're taking it to an extreme that will make this forum equally unwelcoming to people that, quite frankly, I value.
There was a school of thought in teaching about ten to twenty years ago that valued self-esteem above all else in teaching. I see your insisting that we be more accepting to all behavior in a similar light. I have high expectations of my students. Arguably, this might be damaging to their self-esteem, because it certainly is possible to fail my classes. A number of students do so each semester. I think the value of teaching my students math is worth the risk. And I believe that the self-esteem they create if they struggle through their hardships and succeed is more meaningful and substantial than the phony "everything you do is awesome" kind. It's not the same here, in that we're arguably not creating anything approaching the societal value of teaching here, but it's similar enough in that I think the benefit we get in terms of meaningful, entertaining interactions is worth the slight risk of alienating the very thin-skinned.
I think this would be an obnoxious point of view if we were literally turning people away. You seem to see it as though we are. I frankly don't see it that way. I have seen people bend over backward to be patient with young posters, and posters who want to try to join in with what we do here. I never get the "Hatrack is unwelcoming" vibe, because it's so easy to see counterexamples. "Welcome to Hatrack. I have a hard time spelling too, so here's a link to a product I downloaded that will check my spelling in BB posts before I submit them. " is not unwelcoming. On the contrary, it is helping somebody fit in sooner.
I think it comes down to this. We don't have identical definitions of "welcoming." Your definition seems to be accepting of whatever new members produce, and not having standards when it comes to posts, except the standard for niceness that we hold everybody to. My definition of welcoming is to help people fit in. I don't think people will fit in sooner if nobody tells them when they are not posting in the style that is preferred here. I don't find that very welcoming. I believe welcoming is helping people fit in sooner.
(I understand your objection to the need to fit in at all, and to the idea that we get to set some standards at all. You are casting it in a junior high school sense, and I disagree with that characterization. You seem to believe that the opposite extreme would be ideal. I believe the opposite extreme of an unwelcoming forum--which I flat out do not believe we have--would be just as bad, in different ways. I think forces pushing in opposite directions, and forcing us to settle in someplace in the middle, is the best we can have. For that matter, this is the same reaso I believe that democracy has virtue.)
The very first thread I started on Hatrack was one asking when the New Member label by my name would go away. Can you think of anything more n00b than that? I got some ribbing at the time. I didn't leave in a huff, wailing about how unwelcoming the forum was. I expected to be viewed as an outsider, and I understood that my lack of knowledge about the environment here would sometimes be a source of amusement. If people had truly been rude to me, I would have left. But "That will go away after you send me a check for $19.95," and even "I can't believe this newbie's thread has gone two pages!" were hardly rude.
For people who complain about being asked to back up what they say and provide evidence . . . I think this is natural in a debate. If you tell me my point of view is factually incorrect, then I expect you to prove it to me. Does anybody really expect to contradict people and have people just change their minds? Do you do this? If this is a problem, don't participate in debate threads. There's plenty of other good stuff here. I don't participate in very many debate threads, because there are only a handful of topics I am passionate about enough to debate, and because I generally lose interest after two or three pages. If the fact that we take CT's statements on medicine and Dag's statements on law at face value without asking them to prove it--not true, because they both habitually provide us with tons of links without being asked to do so, but just hypothetically--you would probably get similar credibility if you stated your qualification up front, unless your writing style makes it clear you are not a lawyer or a reporter from Dublin. Alternatively, don't enter those debates until you have been around long enough for people to know what your expertise is.
anne kate, I think the dichotomy you have created here, between being welcoming and being unwelcoming, is a false one, and to prop it up, you have cast things people have said as a straw man. Nobody here is about wanting to be cool and wanting to keep people down. This is not middle school; it's not even like middle school. I think you are doing the people you are arguing with a disservice. What you view as unwelcoming, I consider having standards. You can certainly argue that we have no right to have or set standards, and you may be right. But then it is I who have no place here, because I will not stay in a forum where illiteracy, crudeness, and a shotgun approach to conversation are the norm. I simply have no interest in this.
Regarding the issue of ownership of this forum, I disagree with you, to a point. The Cards literally own this place. But I own it too, as do you. That's what a community is. We each own it, and we each have a say in what it should be. You do, and so do I. We remain in community as long as compromise is possible. If you insist that the community must adhere perfectly to your standards or there is no place for you, then if the rest of Hatrack disagrees, you are right. You don't belong here. If I am alone in my belief that we should have standards for discourse here, then I don't belong here. Or maybe we can keep working on pulling Hatrack in the direction we want it to go, and maybe end up going in some third direction neither of us saw was possible, that might be better. And we might both belong in this community.
I see your sense of how we should be, and what virtue is, as almost an academic thing. I believe you study each issue and determine what the virtuous response would be, and act on it. But the problem is that, paradoxically, I think it's possible to not see sides of the issue that way. For instance, I think it's possible to make Hatrack so welcoming that nobody wants to be here, because some of the behaviors you seek to welcome are behaviors that I, and many other people, find unwelcoming to us.
I'm the type of person that can easily forgive something I find insulting once, because I believe that the person who said it did not understand my point of view, or misspoke, or something. When somebody insults me the same way a second time, I have a much harder time getting over it (even when the insult is not explicitly directed at me, but I infer it to be). And it bugs me more when it's somebody I admire and consider a friend. Not too long ago, somebody here called a group of people sharing my point of view whiny, unprofessional, undedicated, and arrogant. For the second time. I was hurt and angry, and I responded in a less than ideal manner, and that friendship may be lost. It is certainly not the same as it used to be. You have no idea how much I am exerting myself to not do the same thing here, anne kate. That's the second time you've compared those who do not perfectly share your standard of behavior at Hatrack to the wolf children in Ender's Game. Since I do not completely agree with you, I number myself among those you have insulted, whether you intend it or not. Your analogy is not remotely accurate, and shows a profound lack of understanding either of Ender's Game or of your fellow community members here. I would greatly appreciate it if you would not make that comparison again, unless the situation is much more extreme than it is here.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I removed the "New Member" status on good faith with you, Icky, but never got that money. Combining that with the money for Megachirops, plus interest and penalties, you now owe me $39,885.23. Call me to work out a payment schedule, ok?
--Pop
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ic, I think we can beat this. Stall him for 2 years until I get my license.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Pop didn't precede his comments with the mini miranda.
Sue him.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Dag, how long have you been in law school?
(Random fact-o-fun...I have a friend named Daag who is studying law right now. Okay, not so much a fact-o-fun as it is a fact-o-uselessness to anyone but me.)
edit: To turn foct into fact. o_O
[ January 14, 2005, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I started in August 2003. I graduate in May 2006, take the bar in July 2006, and find out the results in October.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*still digesting Icky's loooong, but well thought out post*
I think I agree more than I disagree, but am not sure how to articulate my own feelings yet.
AJ
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Just read Tom's post from while I was typing instead. He said the same thing more concisely. :-p
[ January 14, 2005, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
AK, in what way is your post on the Troll thread different than those you indict?
Honestly, it was petty and unworthy of you. I wish you would delete it.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Jeniwren, his humor there was just exactly the sort I'm talking about. Humor intended to wound. In this case, me.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I don't believe he intended to wound.
But I do believe that it did. *hug* Anne Kate, you always seem so fragile to me, and I love it as part of your Anne Kateness. I always want to wrap you in bubble wrap because you're like a light-sensitive china doll that sings like an angel.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tatiana, I don't think Icarus is actually that petty. You *took* that comment as being pointed directly at you to hurt because you wanted to and then you lashed back. I don't believe he meant it that way at all. It was humor directed at all of Hatrack considering we are now up to umpteen pages of community introspection on this thread.
AJ
rotfl, Kat, were you reading my mind?
[ January 14, 2005, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Why yes, yes I was.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
You know what?
I tried to be nice.
**** you.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Heh. I didn't know hatrack would do that.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Dude, Dag. 2003? How old are you?
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
i'm glad it does.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
It's kind of weird that they chose to censor only a single word out of the entire english vocabulary. S*** is completely unedited if you type it out.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Please, AK, even if he was targeting you, your response is even pettier and right in line with what you suggest we not do around here. I do wish you'd delete it.
Besides, if Icarus had something to say to you, he'd post it with 5,000 words direct and to the point , not one line with a winking smiley.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dude, Dag. 2003? How old are you?
34. I graduated college in 1992.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Good. I thought I was going to have to seriously reconfigure my worldview.
I'm glad things are as they should be.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
Ooooh, asterisks!
*gets out nifty Super-star decoder*
****=Love
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yes, I was going to suggest that Icarus to reconsider one of his posts, but I don't react well to that so I figured I shouldn't do it.
[ January 14, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
*agrees with Sara* AK and Icky obviously are coming at the problem from very different perspectives. It might not be a lot of fun right now, but the only way to work towards a common solution is to get it all out there and understand the other's point of view.
Scott, I partially agree with your post about goodbye posts. However, I support goodbye posts as long as they aren't a whine looking for reasons to stay. If I ever leave Hatrack, I'll post one, just because I'd feel as though I owed my friends here a "thank you" before disappearing into the ether.
space opera
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I have to say, I was doing quite a bit of nodding at Scott's post.
Find happiness wherever you can. If you have faith in Hatrack, find happiness within compromise. If you don't, then find it where you can.
Life is too short not to be happy. If a forum is causing anxiety and stress then it has become too important. I know that's an offensive concept to some people, as Hatrack is a type of home to them, but even if my physical home was causing anxiety and stress I'd work to either change myself or leave.
[ January 14, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Yeah, I kind of agree with Scott, too. Though I definitely think that while it's a little egotistical (sorry to those that have said this) to say that people need to pay attention to your posts more, as if this is really going to cause people to pay attention to your posts more out of anything more than pity for more than a couple days, I think it's cool to focus the giant,lidless eye of the forum on someone who is being a real penis, and who is screwing up the forum for everyone else, in such a way that that person knows that they are not welcome. One person really can screw up a whole forum.
--Storm, the person who has had more threads rocket to the bottom of the forum without a single post than anyone else. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Maybe if you included more nudie shots of yourself in those threads, Stormy.
I'm not pressuring. Just, you know, think about it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
When I get tired, I tend to be more direct than is really polite. Let me add to what I said above that I totally understand being bummed out when more people don't respond to your posts. Believe me, I know. It's just that it's kind of nonsensical, to me, to ask people to pay more attention when, if they wanted to in the first place, they would have.
I guess the main observation that I would like to make is that certain people and certain subjects (often posted by those same people) are going to definitely get responses--children, Mormon culture, Mormonism, spiritual stuff--than other things and if your post isn't commented on, then that's just the way the ball bounces. It pretty much happens to everyone here. Don't feel singled out. Indeed, it has been my observation that the more erudite a post is, the fewer posts it often recieves. I am guilty of this. Some days I just don't feel like posting a reply equal to the level of the post that I've just read. I think this is why I often don't respond to Icarus or Mr. Squicky. Their posts are usually so well written and developed in their logic, that it would take little ol' me forever and a day just to type something out in the same world as their post.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Some days I just don't feel like posting a reply equal to the level of the post that I've just read. I think this is why I often don't respond to Icarus or Mr. Squicky. Their posts are usually so well written and developed in their logic, that it would take little ol' me forever and a day just to type something out in the same world as their post.
Word up.
Stormy - you should make a whole 'nother thread with that comment in it to ensure that Icky and Squick read it. Because I'm pretty sure that hits the nail on the head for a lot of people.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Just imagine a latter day Marlon Brando and you're there. No need for all that tedious uploading on my part, and the boring clicking and the subsequent vomiting on your part.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Listen to Ralphie, she is wise.
I paid for her seminars and books, got a photo of a sweaty me with a dramatic background, and look at me now! A veritable almost regular at Hatrack!
Thank you, sweet cheeks!
-Bok
[ January 14, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Eh. I'm sure they'll see it.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Thank you, sweet cheeks!
No problem. I do it because I love you.
(checks in the mail, right?)
Stormy - Lazy McSlotherton.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yup... Just don't cash it until 2043... Or so.
-Bok
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Just don't cash it until 2043
No way, man! I'll be at least... ::counts on fingers:: ... fifty by then!
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I have to say, I agree with lots of people in this thread. I hadn't been following, but man, a lot happened while I was away.
quote:I'm just trying to say, remember, for them it's like coming to a party where you don't know anyone. Treat them the way you'd like to be treated in that situation.
Now see, I agree with that, so I can see Anne Kate's point. However, if you are having an elegant dinner and book club discussion, and in walks Motely Crue, your eyebrows would raise, but I'd expect everyone to put on a nice face and deal with it. But after the 100th time of some idiot showing up just as you and your friends were sitting down to dinner, you'd be annoyed. So I understand Icky's point.
If I really wanted to feel like I fit in, I'd try not to annoy the daylights out of everyone and I'd figure out what the club was. There's no point in bringing my suit of armor to a scuba diving party.
Anne Kate, do you go to church naked? Wearing all black and tattoos? There is a certain level of correctness, is there not, for dress at church?
It's the same thing here. When people are totally out of place, it's helpful if someone points out that bursting into song in the middle of the library isn't a good idea. Maybe that's just me.
Icky and Squicky rhyme! D*oh. I just noticed that!
And, I'd just like to add that I'm one of those people who's wary of new people. Because one person did ruin the entire community for me.
However, I'm much more welcoming of people who know someone. Like bev and MPH. Or ElJay. Or any number of others. The new names who come and make new threads about controversial issues don't even hit my radar screen. I won't even open the thread. I don't trust a lot of newbies, and I'll wait till they've been vetted by the rest of the community. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Kayla, you found the "inbetween" I was looking for. AJ
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I thought my position was an in-between one. I repeatedly talked about the value of Anne Kate's contributions, and acknowledged objections that she or anybody else could have to what I was saying.
Whatever. I don't have time for this right now. I have to go to sleep.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Icarus, for what it is worth, I agree with what you said just there. ^^
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What you're missing, Joe, is that the actual extreme -- "we don't like newbies, and think they're all scum who deserve hazing" -- is an opinion that doesn't exist at Hatrack at all. So those of us who share your opinion find ourselves representatives of an "extreme" which is, rationally, actually the middle ground.
The choice on Hatrack is between being reasonably welcoming of all newbies and absolutely welcoming of all newbies. When put that way, some of the arguments on this thread come off as pretty basic hyperbole.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
You're not talking about MY rather pointed post are you, Major Tom?
Cuz heresy ain't never hyperbole.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I thought I agreed with Icky, too. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Am I a total egomaniac for thinking Icky was essentially agreeing with my first post?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I thought I agreed with Ralphie, too. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Am I a total egomaniac for thinking Icky was essentially agreeing with my first post?
At this point I don't see how that could tip the balance one way or another.
[ January 14, 2005, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'll assume you meant "don't see".
You're right, of course. Good thing I'm so charming, witty, sexy and well-intended or I might have an overinflated opinion of myself.
Whew!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I, on the other hand, maintain a humble view of myself via continual typing errors.
Otherwise I'd be insufferable.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Always look on the bright side of life, hey Dag?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
::grins::
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
You guys are perfectly right. I apologize for any hurt or upset I caused. I was thinking out loud. What I realized (understand that what I'm saying is nothing at all like what people seem to say I'm saying... just I happen to know that it happens over and over that really cool nice people like I3 get turned off here at the very start by snideness and humor which is not intended as nasty as it comes off, but which to a new person it totally IS that nasty) Anyway, there I go trying to explain again when this post is really just to say that I realized .... and it took me totally by surprise... but what I said is exactly true.
I have no interest in coolness. I'm not cool. It's something that seems to be important here now. I really and truly honestly just don't belong.
I should have come to this realization quietly and slipped away unnoticed. I apologize for that too. I just blurted out what I was thinking. It took me by surprise. Best wishes to all. I enjoyed my seven years here.
Oh, and my profoundest thanks to all the prayers and good wishes for Sasha. I wanted to let you know that he's doing absolutely awesome lately and I know your prayers were a part of that.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<hugs to all>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[ January 15, 2005, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I don't get it. I'm sorry, but I just don't. I don't understand how you could think you don't belong here, Tatiana. It doesn't make sense to me. Although it's not like you owe me an explanation or anything, so I'll just say this. If you decide to leave, I for one will miss you. I suspect many others will, too. I also hope you'll come back. But I'd rather you didn't leave.
Having said that, you have to do what you feel is best, but if you do decide that you won't be here anymore, then just make sure that it's because it's what you want and will bring you happiness, not because you think you don't belong.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: I have no interest in coolness. I'm not cool. It's something that seems to be important here now.
I hope this opinion isn't based on my post about status, because if it is then I believe you entirely missed my point.
But like I said before, you leaving makes it a dark day. Find happiness, Anne Kate.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Anne Kate, the door is always open, and there will always be a lot of work and play to do here. Coming back or changing your mind now wouldn't mean you owe anyone any explanations. Remember that.
As for me, I'm going to hold some Tatiana in my life, if I may. I still have a lovely, lovely long letter which has sat on my desktop far to long without a real reply.
((((((Tatiana)))))), who will continue to be the soul and spirit of Hatrack to me.
[ January 15, 2005, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I also agree with Icarus' posts.
Which is not a suprise, really, since he's completely right.
*************** *RIGHT ON!* ***************
[ January 15, 2005, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
((((((Tatiana)))))), who will continue to be the soul and spirit of Hatrack to me.
She forgot to italicise the most important word!
[ January 15, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Am I a noob?
[ January 15, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
*seconds quidscribis*
Jen
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote:Am I a noob?
I think only you can answer this question. I remember it being said that if you have to ask the question, the answer is "yes". Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
I withdraw my endorsement from Icarus as a pillar of the community. Unless he does some serious editing. I think the ethic of not editing is okay for those who never have an emotional outburst, but for the rest of us mortals I think it would be best.
I'm not siding with Tatiana either. Edit: See how easty that was?
[ January 15, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I think it's pretty funny that someone can pretend to be all inclusive and yet can tell me that I'm incredibly stupid to smoke tobacco no matter how little I do it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
This thread makes me sad.
Perhaps we should have a welcome committee, a person or persons who do initial greetings when they see a new poster, and, if necessary, point them in the right direction of Hatretiquette, instead of everyone either ignoring or leaping on a bad or misplaced first post.
If this doesn't seem like too crazy an idea (if it is, just say), I'd be honoured to be part of a Hatrack greeting group.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
But what if you miss someone? I guess you can always assign yourself a mission of greeting new people. One way to keep on top of it is to click on a profile and change the last few numbers in the address line. That will take you to the profile of whatever member number you choose. From there you can check their last posts.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm not sure that I can say anything here without the thread gyrating into a love/hate fest, with everyone complaining or complimenting Icarus or Tatiana.
Let's remove the people and look at the ideas they represented. The bulk of Tatiana's argument is that we should be automatically accepting of the new folks. From what I understand of Icarus' POV, such a stance is not really practical, or even neccessary. Communities DON'T give automatic acceptance, though Hatrack does very, very good at welcoming n00bs on the whole.
In my interpretation, there's nothing wrong with either of these points of view-- I happen to think Icarus' is more correct, though.
Icarus, please let me know if I've gone wrong somewhere with this.
So, in practical terms, where are we now? :grin: The same place we started, more or less. Ten pages of. . . topical meandering, really. But we never get anywhere with this topic. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Jatraqueros need to accept that some n00bs are going to come in, prejudices blazing, and someone's going to have to take them down to protect the integrity of the forum. And when that someone complains, some other Jatraquero will be around to soothe and smooth folks' feelings.
:shrug:
That's life. Get on with it.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Topical meandering and Ralphie worship. You can't forget the Ralphie worship.
I think another point that I made earlier but it was so long ago, I don't mind making it again, is that part of being a community is that some are inevitably more connected than others. Or the quality of the connection is different.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: I withdraw my endorsement from Icarus as a pillar of the community
I don't think anyone is or isn't a "pillar" due to anyones endorcment...or lack of one either. My idea of a pillar of Hatrack doesn't have to mesh with anyone else, precisly because this isn't a popularity contest.
It is a place where we meet to discuss things and meet people we normally wouldn't meet IRL.
ak, you can leave if you want, but I will miss you. I am not asking you to stay though, as that is a personal decision.
Keep in mind that you had PLENTY of people mentioning how important you were to them here, and saying that they loved you and your attitude.
Even Icarus said that you, or your views, were necessary for this place to work, that it had to be a give and take for it to work.
It takes all sorts of people to make an on-line community work, and if everyone has to agree with you on this then that isn't a very flexible position to have. Not a lot of give and take there, you know what I mean? I wouldn't want to be here if I had to be nice and welcome all the CS's, BC's, and other trolls (or wannabe trolls). It wouldn't;t be worth my time or effort because they disrupt the place too much.
But if everyone was always in my face then it wouldn't be much fun either. I gave each of those kids a chance, which I wouldn't have bothered to do IRL, probably, because I DO feel that we have an obligation to ourselves and to others to try to welcome anyone who is willing to contribute in a meaningful way.
If you feel that you don;t fit here, that is your business. But NOBODY is universally loved, at least not to the point of everyone agreeing with everything someone says on this topic.
If a ton of people posting and praising you can't make a difference the I don't know what will.
Good Luck with whatever you do, and I hope to see you back soon.
Kwea
[ January 15, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Bork (Member # 7283) on :
Alright, being a newbie and considering this is my first post I thought I should introduce myself here, in the proverbial lions den.
I'm not joining the forum to try and make people angry or be controversial I have just been a fan of Orson Scott Card's work for about seven years now.
It's horrible how people feel the need to try and damage communities of people who simply wish to talk with like minded people and just as often people who aren't like minded but can express themselves in an intelligent, intellectual way.
It's also sad that people can not feel comfortable enough with themselves to have a sense of humor and be so easily offended. My own name is a bit of a joke, the character Bork in The Bulley and The Beast who was very kind but also a bit clumsy and large much like myself. :-)
I hope to be active on these forums and become an accepted member of the hatrack community and also I wish for constructive crticism on my forum etiquette as I have never been a regular poster on a forum.
On a side note, I think it would be a good idea to make new forum members answer a simple question about one of OSC's books, ask them what book they liked best and if they say Alvin Maker series ask them a simple question like 'Who died in the Hatrack River?' Would weed out some of the stupid people...
[ January 15, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Bork ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Not everyone here has even read a Card book. Some are here because friends recommended the site. Some read OSC's columns. Some came from Ornery. Lots of people. The endless fandom, speculation, questions about OSC's books is on the other half of the forum. We sometimes get to help with new books, too.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
D*oh. And welcome. Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Welcome Bork! I am only familiar with the Supreme Court nominee Bork, but I liked his beard.
We have had a couple of members who hadn't read OSC. TMedina was one. So it's not an absolute requirement. Though I think it would be as odd as someone choosing not to eat chocolate. <---doesn't eat chocolate.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Wow, talk about your freaks. Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: someone choosing not to eat chocolate.
I have a funny story to tell about me mother. Shall I post it?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
What a n00b.
You don't ask permission. You just post it, apologize for posting it, then delete it in a huff.
Sheesh, get with the program. Posted by Bork (Member # 7283) on :
I'm not a big chocolate fan either, and any person who has read Ender's game and said they don't like the book need an examination, it can't be normal. I know people who detest science fiction and love Ender's Game.
Edit: P.S. Mother Tree, I suggest highly you read the short story Bulley and the Beast in Maps in a Mirror, in my opinion one of Card's best short stories.
Edit2: Wow, I spelled Bully wrong in 2 seperate posts....heh heh, correct name is BULLY and the beast.
[ January 15, 2005, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Bork ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Okay, but I'm trying to gt over the Hatrack Puppy status.
My grandmother gives us (my brother and I) some chocolate, usually made overseas from fine ingredients.
So I merely put it in the fridge. The following day I notice one little block of subsance remains; a quick investigation, handled by my brother - leads to my mother. She immediately apologises and puts a new packet in the fridge (lower quality, of course).
The next day, the packet's gone. Look here, look there, look all around - nada. Let's just say that when my mother asks me for chocolate, I tell her it's unhealthy (she's in to it now). She still owes me a packet of expensive Lindt's finest "Sweet cherry jelly inside" Swiss.
JH
Posted by Bork (Member # 7283) on :
Heh heh, my Mother told me when she was a teenager, the doctor told her not to eat any more sweets. Well, one day she was walking through a store eating a candy bar and the doctor caught her. Took her candy bar and walked through the store eating the rest of it...
I've met the doctor before, he still practices, he's one of my favorites and the only person I would let stitch my head when I was a kid.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Welcome to Hatrack, Bork. I recognized the name from the short story immediately, and actually wondered if it would end up being from somewhere else. Over the years there have been a number of people whose names could have been from OSC stories but weren't. Have fun, make friends, and be cautious Hatracking when eating or drinking, unless your monitor and keyboard have protective coatings.
--Pop
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I agree with Papa Moose's first sentence.
*********************
"Mom, why are you eating chocolate? It's 'not healthy' (in a mocking tone)."
"Oh, um... This is sugarfree."
"Yes, so? Sugar gives you energy!"
"And it makes you go fat. This is sugarfree...!"
"Yes, (flipping the packet) but it has 31% fat in it. This is not confiscated!"
[ January 15, 2005, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Bork (Member # 7283) on :
It's funny you said that, I read the post and am now typing while eating a bowl of cereal.
I also assume you are the Papa Moose personified in The Crystal City and mentioned in the Aftword, which is very cool.
[ January 15, 2005, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Bork ]
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: I also assume you are the Papa Moose personified in The Crystal City and mentioned in the Aftword, which is very cool.
Please elaborate...?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Not only is it cool, so are Moose and Squirrel.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Am I losing track here?
Posted by Bork (Member # 7283) on :
In the book The Crystal City there was a character named Papa Moose, based off a real person who won a trivia contest at Endercon the prize was oringinally a cameo appearance however OSC turned him into a major character, and the character was named after winners forum persona Papa Moose, so the person who started this thread and who I refer to is the person who won it apparantly.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
(And his wife is Mama Squirrel, who also posts here and was his wife in the book.)
And I have a signed copy and am in the acknowledgments section. I'm so cool. Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Thanks, Bork.
As you might well see, some of us are those who choose our names. TomDavidson, for instance (several honour/humour threads for him), Sara Sasse (who is the gate to Hatrack's holy shrine), Bob_Scopatz, Annie, Anna, I etc.
And some choose psudonyms, such as yourself, Bean Counter, Papa Moose etc.
Why am I writing this?
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
w00t! I got the 500th post!
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I got my 603rd.
[ January 15, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I meant the 500th post of this thread.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Jonathan - You know, I kind of like your enthusiasm and sociability. It's very endearing. So, when I say this I say it with love: think, then post, Spanky. You'll save yourself all these confused "What?? What's going on!?" posts.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
ak, you leaving really underscores that you don't practice what you preach, you hypocrite. Icarus gives you his honest opinion and in return you crap on him by leaving.
You want people to be accepting of all newbies, yet you can't bring yourself to hold your nose when someone has a difference of opinion with you.
Your leaving as you are is really lame. I hope you are proud of yourself.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I don't think we need a welcoming committee, but if someone wants to be self-appointed that's s'okay with me. Though, to tell the truth, sometimes I get concerned about the people who don't know *anything* about Hatrack - it makes me wonder if I'm a weirdo who lurked for awhile instead of jumping in and posting right away.
I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way - so don't jump on me - I'm using the following as an example. We had a landmark thread recently. A few very new members of the forum jumped in and, in my mind, made a mockery of what that landmark stood for. They did this not to be jerks, but because they hadn't taken the time to get to the know the form better, or at the very least ask someone privately what a landmark was instead of putting multiple silly posts into someone's landmark.
I just wish people would attempt to get to know the forum a bit better before jumping in with both feet, nose plugged, and eyes closed. There are going to be certain rules in any social situation, and Hatrack is a social situation in my mind. Too bad there's not a way to keep the FAQs stuck at the top somehow - but I'm still not convinced that people would actually read them.
space opera
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Storm, if you really felt that needed to be said, couldn't you have kept that to E-mail? Lines like "you hypocrite" don't, as far as I'm concerned, have a place here.
Look, Anne Kate is by any standard one of the founding members of Hatrack. For a long time, she was the welcoming committee; I'd imagine that most of the oldest of us here recall fondly our first conversations with her. She is profoundly and powerfully principled, and couples that with a pure -- albeit fragile -- sensitivity; this often, and more often in recent years, prompts her to lash out at perceived injustice, but only (and this is key to her personality, I think) when she believes that person to be in a position of power and/or responsibility relative to the "victim."
Perceived status is a very real issue for Anne Kate; I think she has a lot of problems accepting that people form opinions of other people, because the mere existence of such opinions produces a form -- even a mild form -- of exclusion. And if you back her into a corner by forcing her to accept that her own insistence on "no status" is itself a form of status, I think she'll react like anyone cornered: she'll lash out or run.
I don't want her to run. I want her to stick around. But maybe she's going someplace in her own head that we can't follow. If so, though, I really hope she drops by after she gets there to help the rest of us along that path, because I genuinely and sincerely believe that her obsessions -- kindness and generosity and selflessness, often to quirky and sometimes to self-destructive extremes -- are ones that many of us need to see on a regular basis to remember to practice in our own lives.
She can be bitter. She holds grudges, which I think are based largely on disillusionment; she still refuses to talk to me after I had the temerity to suggest to her that certain behaviors of hers were unhealthy.
But she has been in many ways my partner on this site for as long as I'd imagine any of you can remember, and I will sincerely and deeply miss her if she chooses to move on. Don't kick her when she's down, Storm; she deserves better than that, even if you can't see why.
----
To elaborate: about a year ago, I stopped visiting a forum I helped found and in fact used to moderate. After the forum changed ownership and moved to a different server with a different interface (much like the BML/UBB switch), I found that I didn't like the structure as much -- but stuck around because I had some very real friendships there. I had no interest, however, in moderating the new site; it'd taken too much of my time in the past, and didn't want to argue with the new owner.
I had always been deliberately heavy-handed, if consistent, in my moderation. The new moderator was a very hands-off guy -- and coupled with a different approach to marketing, the behavior on the forum began to swing towards a more standard "in-your-face" USENET/h4x0r style. And, frankly, I felt enormously betrayed. I don't like flames; I hate being put in a position where I'm forced to flame back or, by holding my tongue, imply that I condone what's being said. In my opinion, it's a moderator's job to avoid situations like that; this moderator, and many of the new users, did not agree.
So I left in a huff. Perhaps not the same way John Hansen left Hatrack, or Anne Kate is leaving now, but definitely in a "you guys have changed for the worse, and I don't fit in here anymore" sort of way. And I got a lot of replies, many from people who agreed -- but many more from people who'd come to the site in recent months and liked the way it was, and couldn't understand my objections.
So I know where Anne Kate's coming from. Hatrack's changed in a lot of ways since she got here. It's too big, IMO, for any one person to care for all the strays -- or for all the strays to be of a consistently high quality. This has to be alienating, and I feel for her.
[ January 15, 2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think Icky had a lot of good points, some of which have been overlooked....
He said that Hatrack need both of them, or at least both ends of the spectrum. He said that he was willing to help people fit in, and only had a problem with those who were trying to wreck the quality of this site. He also said that he was offended by being cast into a bad light by being one of the people she was complaining about, adn asked her to be as accomadating as she claimed she was.
He said that he considered her a friend of sorts, or he at least implied it.
-------------------------------------------------
I think his point, at least at first, was that it didn;t have to be an all or nothing type of thing, and that either extreme was not a good thing without the opposing view to moderate it's behavior.
I obviously agree....but I will miss AK too.
So I guess he was right, it isn't a him vs her, black vs white type of situation, unless she wants it to be.
This is the last thing I have to say here in this thread, and I hope AK finds some sort of peace wherever she goes.
Kwea
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I feel it is necessary to post here the conversation that went on in the Troll thread:
Hmmm. It has been deleted. Perhaps this should be too. I know people hate to delete but you can't always control what replies people make.
I'd just encourage people to consider how they would feel if someone told their wife, sister, or daughter some of the things being said in Anne Kate's direction.
Edited to be more kind. Man these new rules I've set for myself pinch.
[ January 15, 2005, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Now, mothertree (aka?) you know that it was because he'd already asked you to stop calling him that wolf thing from Ender. Yet, you came back and quoted him, (something like "maybe you all aren't welcoming enough," I believe) and then said something about "staunching the blood flow from the wolf bites." Am I mistaken about to what you refer? He'd even explained why it upset him.
You're in a bad place right now. I understand. I've been there myself. (Maybe he is, too.) However, he's been trying to extend the olive branch and you've been biting back. Sometimes, when bitten often enough, the owner of the hand will bite back.
I'm sorry you are going through this. Maybe, rather than leave, you could just take a break and come back when you are in a better place?
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Sorry, I'm most commonly known as pooka. I guess you resisted the call of the 666 thread. It speaks well of you. Not that it speaks bad of anyone who did read it and reply. I assumed they were just more interested in TTSH.
P.S. It seemed to me that Icarus had raised issues from this thread in that thread first. But we'll never know.
[ January 15, 2005, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Oh, I didn't pick up that this was your new name at all. I must be reading too fast. mothertree.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I refuse to validate her act of aggression and childish behavior with any form of sympathy whatsoever. If Icarus had been the least bit aggressive towards her, or if his post had been filled with animosity, I could see where she was coming from. But it wasn't, and she is leaving in a childish snit, in a way that she is using to force her point of view on everyone else and to cause pain to people here for no reason other than petty egotism.
She knows she's liked, Tom, and her removing herself is a form of suicide. It's something designed to hurt others, again, because she can't get her way and, I am positive, to generate sympathy exactly like yours for herself and her cause.
I refuse to play along and I am not going to hide my anger and my hurt because you have a personal history with her, or because you yourself sympathize with her. She needs to face the pain that she is causing, just as you and the rest are making me face the hurt I am causing. I can only hope that, in the long run, what I am doing will have positive consequences for all concerned on this forum. I accept the fact that what I am doing will not be perceived as constructive by some of you, and am sorry that I am hurting your feelings because of your relationship with ak, but I'm not going to be silent to make you feel better.
ak is not being a friend to any of you by leaving. She isn't respecting your opinions by leaving. She is doing the exact opposite.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
I don't feel hurt by her leaving. I learned well enough that this forum can get by without any one person.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
For the short time I've been here, this sort of thread pops up with regular precision. What I find fascinating is that folks continue to dialogue, and work through it. It's one of the things I like about Hatrack . . . although these sorts of discussions also always leave me with the same sick, sad feelings I experienced so many times as a child when my parents fought, threatened to divorce, did divorce . . . and then started the whole process over again with the latest husband or wife . . .
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
quote: For the short time I've been here
Two years? Short time?
Posted by gnixing (Member # 768) on :
you know Tom, you're absolutely right. i'm not sure that many of those who came onboard years ago would bother sticking around today if they were new. it's kind of sad in a way.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Well, compared to some, Kayla, yes!
Funny enough, I did the writer's forum for half a year before I came over to this side . . . and the reason I stayed away for so long was similar to one previously mentioned - the idea of hanging out at a "fan site" was disturbing.
The first posts I read were on the OSC forum, and were clearly younger folks full of adulation. Not there's anything wrong with that, of course, I just didn't quite know what to make of it . . .
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Lines like "you hypocrite" don't, as far as I'm concerned, have a place here.
Likely because the truth stings...
It is seriously difficult to find many here, on a forum full of debates on subjects like politics, religion, and culture, that have not engaged in hypocritical behavior. The very essence of why we don't discuss those aforementioned things in polite company is because of how we act and react when the tensions flare. Not a single person I have known has engaged in such in-depth discussion and not at some time fallen into the exact behavior they would shrink from in horror on any other day. To be as frank as possible, calling one another hypocrites for whatever reason is a little like accusing each other of being warm-blooded or mammalian: it is more than a little redundant.
What I believe the accomplishment worth striving for in such cases is being able to accept someone despite those bouts of hypocrisy, and hope for the good karma of someone else doing so for you. Otherwise, we can quickly and easily get tangled up in a web of accusational web weaving, where everyone has at one time or another been hypocritical in their relations with others here and outside of the forum. Everyone would not only feel self-justified at holding a grudge against at least one other, but will let their grudges pile up like badges of misplaced honor, tinting their vision to make others seem like they have a chip on their shoulder as the weight of their "honor" places a chip on their own.
But go ahead and scoff. Even when the last ten pages is pointed out, you can still sit smugly in the 'knowledge' that at least it's better than anywhere else. Sure, it sounds kind of like the talk of an enabler, but is it enabling if it's true? We're not that bad, are we?
Of course not. Nevermind.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I'm going to pick on the "you hypocrite" line as an example. Just one example. There are a whole lot of other examples I could have used instead, but this one is handy.
One thing I'm seeing here is name calling. Fine, you think someone is acting in a hypocritical fashion. You feel it's important to say so in the forum. Does it really have to be worded "you hypocrite"? Why not say "hypocritical behavior"? Something like this: "It feels to me like you're behaving like a hypocrit when you do this. . ."
There is a difference. One way, you're saying the person is bad. The other way, you're saying how you feel about something.
What are you trying to accomplish? What is your goal? Are you trying to make a person feel bad? Or are you trying to resolve an issue in a way that everyone wins or, at the very least, no one loses?
Have you thought about what you want out of this as your typing your harsh words?
Do you know what kind of impact name calling has? Do you know that it typically serves to escalate anger and hurt feelings and doesn't really accomplish a whole lot that's positive? It tends to cause people to polarize. Divide. Wouldn't it be better to discuss things calmly and rationally, even if all you get out of it is agreeing to disagree. To explain how you feel about something is fine. To attack another person is not.
Just my 2 Rupees.
Edited: Because, in theory, I know how to spell.
[ January 16, 2005, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Justa, when you say enabling, what is the abuse that is being enabled? It's not that I don't see it, just one doesn't stand out. Or do you just mean the tendency of a victim to enable acts of abuse against itself?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:She knows she's liked, Tom, and her removing herself is a form of suicide. It's something designed to hurt others, again, because she can't get her way and, I am positive, to generate sympathy exactly like yours for herself and her cause.
Nah, that's not it at all. Her decision to leave didn't just come out of the blue--it's something that's been building for a while now. The whole business with Icarus was the straw that broke the camel's back for her. It's just time for her to devote her energies elsewhere. I hope she finds her way back here in the future, but for now she needs to not be here. I respect that, even though I wish, for purely selfish reasons, that it weren't the case.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: It's too big, IMO, for any one person to care for all the strays -- or for all the strays to be of a consistently high quality. This has to be alienating, and I feel for her.
Bingo.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ralphie, you should have told me we were playing coed naked bingo.....
[ January 16, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I should just forget about this thread. Bringing it back to the front page is like picking at a particularly nasty scab. But there are things I wanted to respond to, and things I needed to get off of my chest. If it dies a quick death after this post, I'll be just as happy, but at least I'll feel like I said what I needed to.
Somehow, some people's posts have managed to portray this dispute as being some spectrum of beliefs, of which I am on one side and anne kate was on another. I think Tom raised a good point in saying that the extreme opposite of anne kates point of view basically did not exist here at Hatrack, but I think some people (anne kate included) erroneously portrayed me as inhabiting that mythical position. I found this rather hurtful, because I believe that I personally am welcoming and inclusive. (I know that plenty of people have posted to reassure me that they don't see me in this light, but it bugs me that even a handful of people do.)
The biggest indicator of this false dichotomy was anne kate's constant references to in-crowds and to petty sniping. I don't see any place in my posts here or elsewhere where I endorsed any such thing, or where I placed any value on being cool, or on being mean to outsiders--with the specific exception of outsiders who demonstrated themselves to be destructive to our community.
These are some of the mean-spirited things I said in this thread:
quote: Anne Kate, I love how genuinely good-hearted you are. That is not any kind of left-handed praise: I love to chat with you when you have time, and to have conversations with you. I love to [newbiefish] in Parachat with you (part of why I bristle at the suggestion that we are unkind to newbies).
quote: I've been pretty consistent about always pointing to this variety as the strength I see in Hatrack . . . look for it and then you'll see it. I feel horrible at the thought that it could be what I said that is making you feel this way, anne kate. If you go back and read it again, hopefully you'll see that there was no insult in there. As far as how I feel about you, do you ever read the unsolicited hug thread?
-o-
While it's flattering to be called a pillar of the community, I don't think I have been around long enough by any stretch.
quote: Beyond that, I would say that you have standards that you are trying to enforce as well. Our expectation the new members will take the time to proofread their posts, back up their claims, be patient with the forum stories they don't know, and not be too thin-skinned when they are told how to improve, is not morally different from your expectation that veteran members should be more welcoming. We are each exerting "ownership" of this place we do not own, just not neccessarily toward identical ends.
Your ends are undeniably more charitable than mine, anne kate. However, and this is a point I was trying to make before, I think we need forces pulling in a variety of directions in order to get anything worthwhile here. (Talk about unwelcoming, I am saying that we need both your view and mine, but you are saying that if we are not exactly how you would like to see us be, then either there is not room here for you, or there is not room here for people like me.) We need somebody endeavoring to make Hatrack a nicer place. It would be a mistake to shut out such a voice, but I don't believe we have done that. But where we disagree is that I believe we also need somebody raising expectations. I see this as a quality place, with entertaining and intelligent discourse. I don't think that's invulnerable. I think the level of discourse can and historically has been brought down.
. . . .
So we're damned either way. We can't create a forum that is welcoming to all people. I agree with you that it is a noble goal to try. I value your attempts to bring it about.
. . .
The Cards literally own this place. But I own it too, as do you. That's what a community is. We each own it, and we each have a say in what it should be. You do, and so do I. We remain in community as long as compromise is possible. If you insist that the community must adhere perfectly to your standards or there is no place for you, then if the rest of Hatrack disagrees, you are right. You don't belong here. If I am alone in my belief that we should have standards for discourse here, then I don't belong here. Or maybe we can keep working on pulling Hatrack in the direction we want it to go, and maybe end up going in some third direction neither of us saw was possible, that might be better. And we might both belong in this community.
My point was never that it was okay to be mean or spiteful to people, but that I believed that the occurrence of this behavior might be exagerated, due to oversensitivity on some parts.
My post in Elizabeth's thread was certainly not "Humor intended to wound. In this case, me." It's outrageous that anne kate would say so, and more outrageous that anybody would take this claim seriously, as several people did here. Look at the context. Had I shown any indication of wanting to wound anne kate?
Posting across threads is hardly new. I also posted about this in one of the "welcome me" threads, in which El Jay gave a new poster specific advice on how to fit in here.
It's also not insulting.
I'm also used to feeling that I am among friends, and can crack a joke every once in a while without having to walk upon eggshells, especialy when it's somebody I have repeatedly praised (even before this whole brouhaha came up). If I can't all of a sudden, then it ain't worth being here.
Even when she specifically insulted me with the one thing I had told her I found most hurtful, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. My next post in that thread assumed that she had been joking, and it was only when I checked back in this thread that it became clear to me that anne kate had not been joking, that she literally was calling me a wolf.
Look at my posts, and look at anne kate's posts. Look at how I repeatedly compliment anne kate and acknowledge the value of her contributions. And then look at how I specifically told anne kate how to wound me. I specifically told her which oft-repeated comparison of hers I found hurtful, and she made a point of throwing it back in my face. And so I finally run out of patience, and people can't understand why? I should edit my posts??
(Regarding editing my cursing post: First of all, I don't seek to be considered a "pillar of the community," so revoke your recommendation or whatever you feel like doing. I am me, and that can be good enough for you, or not. I certainly see no need to edit a post that was already automatically edited for me. To what end? To pretend I never lost my cool? That seems more dishonest than anything else.)
Something anne kate said in her final post:
quote:I have no interest in coolness. I'm not cool. It's something that seems to be important here now. I really and truly honestly just don't belong.
I would like to see evidence to support this statement, because she certainly didn't get this from anything I posted.
quote:I feel it is necessary to post here the conversation that went on in the Troll thread:
Hmmm. It has been deleted. Perhaps this should be too. I know people hate to delete but you can't always control what replies people make.
I'd just encourage people to consider how they would feel if someone told their wife, sister, or daughter some of the things being said in Anne Kate's direction.
I ever got the chance to look in that thread again after I posted "Smile when you say that. " because it was deleted. I assume you are not referring to anything I posted there, because I posted nothing inappropriate there. If this is not the case, then please elaborate. If this is the case, then please state so, so that people don't think I said a bunch of nasty stuff in that other thread that they simply cannot see anymore.
quote:. . . her removing herself is a form of suicide. It's something designed to hurt others, . . .
I completely agree with this analogy. She leaves in such a way as to brand me the person who chased her away. The mentality is clearly "they'll miss me when I'm gone" and "they'll be sorry." The manner of her leaving is in itself an aggressive and hurtful act.
[ January 19, 2005, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"My post in Elizabeth's thread was certainly not "Humor intended to wound. In this case, me."
Huh? Which thread?
Icarus, I have always found you to be extremely honest in your opinions, and I, too, do not understand where this was coming from. I am very sorry to see Anne Kate leave, but I agree that she did so in a way that was deliberately hurtful to you.
[ January 19, 2005, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Who had the thread about the stalker and the other online forum? Am I confuzzled?
-o-
Thanks, by the way, to everyone who has said nice things to me, and pointed out that being hurtful is not really my style.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
NP, Icarus. Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
To help clear things up: yes it was in Elizabeth's thread Icarus made his joke. Anne Kate deleted her offending post fairly quickly (I never saw it) and Elizabeth later deleted the thread for an entirely unrelated reason.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Icarus-- I think your explanation of events is important. Thanks.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Icarus, you are very welcoming to newbies, moreso than even most of the people on this board. You are one of the people that I felt would "let me hang out" despite my age and newbie status when I first came here. Not that other people excluded me or anything. I just felt like you made it a point to respond to my posts, chat with me, and play Scrabble with me as if I had been here a long time, and as if I was a pal of yours. That's why I asked you and your wife about some of the personal things happening in my life. Because I felt like you cared.
I just wanted you to know that I appreciate that about you.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Oh. I don't remember her reply. I deleted the thread just because I was starting to feel uncomfortable with the content being out on the waves.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I just now started reading this thread and found something that really upset me.
quote:(My only real bitterness is that Belle used to give everybody cookies, but she never did this for me . . . ) --Icarus
And, on a more serious note, I've run up against Icarus and probably butted heads with him as much or more than anyone on this forum. We've had some heated exchanges and been vehemently opposed on things.
And I consider him a gentleman. He's never been intentionally malicious or tried to say personally hurtful things to me.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Oh, man. Those cookies look good.
And I don't mean maybe.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Word.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
TomD, I think fatherhood has mellowed you. That was a thoughtful post and reflects a compassion in you that I've seen more and more since Sophie was born. Or maybe I was just unperceptive before. Which is only to say that I see more of it, not that you lacked it before.
While I don't disagree with SS's sentiments (I loathe "I'm leaving" posts), you gave me food for thought and made me think more kindly of AK. Thank you.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:He's never been intentionally malicious or tried to say personally hurtful things to me.
You know that's not entirely true, but I appreciate your saying to, and will take those words as your acceptance of my apology.
And I'll share those cookies with Cor, too.
[ January 19, 2005, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
But . . . What about me? I didn't get any cookies when I joined, either. Don't I count? *whine*
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Dammit, I was just at Subway and didn't get any cookies because I was trying to be good. And now I want some!
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
That coconut one alone makes me want to have a kid just to be able to offer my firstborn as a sign of true dedication to The Cookie.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
But what if it's a Death Cookie, Toni?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I was just going to say that cookie looks good enough to transubstantiate.
You're reading my mind!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
For nearly two years now, actually. And let me tell you, it's no picnic, what with all the monkey sex.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
That's a crude explanation for what goes on my mind.
(I prefer to think of it as "monkey love.")
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, I knew that.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'd ask you what I'm thinking now, but I'm pretty much a one-trick pony.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
One part "I wonder if Tom's got a quality follow-up," one part monkey "love," and one part trying to figure out what trick, exactly, you would most want a one-trick pony to perform. And one part dedicated to clicking "refresh."
Oh, wait. That may be my head. I can't tell; the neighbors are watching QVC and it's messing with my reception.
[ January 20, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Holee crap. Tom's funny.
11 pages of angst, and Tom's funny.
Totally worth it.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I have pictures running through my head . . . and they ain't good . . . *runs screaming*
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I think it must be a sign that I'm growing up that I really don't want to know what one trick that pony has?
I kind of wish I wanted to know.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, do you actively not want to know, or are you just completely disinterested? There's a difference.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I actively do not want to know.
I'm considering legal action.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I'm with Scott. I think I'll hire Dagonee. Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I actively don't want to know. I'm not that old.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Sigh. I want to know.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Me too. Maybe we can use sealed discovery so I can find out and not tell my client. Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
quote: I should edit my posts??
I phrased that badly Icarus. I only ever said you were a pillar of the community to kiss your butt so you'd think I was cool (being honest here). I just never should have said that, and I should have retracted it in a way that didn't require anything from you. I'm sorry for that.
The thing I was reacting to is that you said "**** you" and after that came many posts where people said they agreed with you. Perhaps they weren't expressing support for that particular statement. I'm pretty sure they weren't. I just wanted to make clear that I didn't support that.
I do stand by something else I said, that you are not a cliquey type. I am. I accept that. I'm not going to be one of those cliquey types that insists there are no cliques.
I'll say on the general topic of cliques that they can be defined either by who is in them or by who is not in them. I try to use the former definition, because I think the later definition is where people get hurt more.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Is it okay to be a cliquey type if my clique has really low standards?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Sure. The punclique has the lowest standards of all. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I resent that statement, Dag! Our standards for low standards are high! Plus, I would love it if Tom joined the pun clique every now and then. His humor is too dry, though. I guess that makes our humor wet.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I have neither the wit nor the skill for puns.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Are you saying your linguistic humor skills aren't puny enough?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I can respect that, Trish.
(Notice that I like to use people's other names as a way of seeming cool. :-p )
For what it's worth, I love that you and I often disagree and can still like each other as people and respect each others' viewpoints. If Hatrack didn't bring together people of such differing backgrounds, I would never know your delightfully warped sense of humor and your generous, virtuous personality.
I think you're very cool.
(And I'm glad you're back here by the way. Interacting with people only on other forums seems lacking to me . . . it's only partial interaction.)
[ January 20, 2005, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
quote:I only ever said you were a pillar of the community to kiss your butt so you'd think I was cool (being honest here).
On the upside, George Bernard Shaw said, "Always let your flattery be seen through for what really flatters a man is that you think him worth flattering."
Oooo...I like this one.
quote:Take no repulse, whatever she doth say; For 'get you gone,' she doth not mean 'away.' Flatter and praise, commend, extol their graces; Though ne'er so black, say they have angels' faces. That man that hath a tongue, I say is no man, If with his tongue he cannot win a woman.
From that page, I realized the perfect word for Slash the Bezerker: gallant. He is always gallant.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Icarus kat---> <---me
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I'm not spanking - it just made me think of it. Flattery is flattering - the sentiments may be invented, but the wish to please is real. In a place like this, with no money and no power to confer upon one another, the only reason to flatter is because the person has distinguished themselves enough that their approval is desirable. Even being related to someone admired isn't enough to gather flatterers; Icky has earned his accolades all on his own.
It is, incidentally, one of the things I love about Hatrack. I've always thought that Hatrack was a bit like a well-written play that needs a little editing, and like what I think great literature should be, it's a distillation of humanity.
[ January 20, 2005, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Hatrackers tend to flatter those they disagree/fight with but still get along with, much more wildly and extravagantly than those they, in general, agree with and get along with.
i find that fascinating!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Okay, that sequence of smilies is just. . . disturbing.
Really.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
So calling Slash gallant isn't flattery? It's just an empirical fact?
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Slash isn't here to read it.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Bet he lurks still.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
I don't think so. He says he doesn't, and there's no evidence to the contrary.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
How do you prove an unverifiable abscence?
I'm kidding-- if Slash says he doesn't lurk, he doesn't lurk.
:whispers: But I bet he WANTS to.
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
If a Slash is gallant on a forum, but he isn't there to read it, did it make any sound?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Hatrackers tend to flatter those they disagree/fight with but still get along with, much more wildly and extravagantly than those they, in general, agree with and get along with.
i find that fascinating!
I think this is true.
I think it's because we--perhaps incorrectly--assume that the people we agree with all the time know how we feel about them and don't need to be told. (Sounds like family members who never say "I love you," eh?) Conversely, though--and I think this is a valid observation--people we disagree with may eventually take it personally. They may come to believe that we simply don't like them. And so it feels more important to reassure those people, before they draw that conclusion.
Put in that light, it sure sounds like taking some people for granted, though. :-\
I know, maybe I should start another hug thread . . .
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't think I go out of my way to flatter people I don't agree with, but I will go out of my way to agree with someone on some point if I ordinarily don't agree with them on everything else.
Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
Scott, a married woman!
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
He erased it, but before he did I was pretty sure Scott was talking about me.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Lady Jane thinks she SOOOOOO clever. Heh. Showed her.
quote:Sounds like family members who never say "I love you,"
"Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakeable."
"Hurrah!"
"But, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation."
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
What? What?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Lemme 'splain.
Nah. Never mind. I'll let Ralphie keep her dreams.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, please don't! You don't know what they're like, Scott!
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Guess who's the monkey in my dreams when Scott posts.
Uh huh.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Yeah, but who's the pony?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Okay, Zan. You can be the pony.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Yay!!!
Oh, wait. Maybe that's not a good thing.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
It's a pretty easy role.
Just one trick to remember.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Didn't the donkey die by the end of Bachelor Party?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Does he get to pick the trick?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*haughty sniff* Y'all have one-trick -- uh, one-track -- minds.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Guess who's the monkey in my dreams when Scott posts."
Aren't you known as the Spankmistress in certain circles, Ralphie? Are you implying that...
(edited)
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Kinky!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I just came back from a long time-out.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
*checks out thread* *runs screaming*
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
). I've been stopping by these forums every now and again for the past few months, but only recently decided to register and post during my last read through of the Ender/Bean books. Now I'm reading the Alvin Maker books thanks to Hatrack( ![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
) and I'll probably be sticking around. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
Whatever the reason, I think it's a shame. I wish blacwolve, Ryuko, Uhleeuh -- and so many others! -- would post more. They's good people! ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Icarus ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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