Encased in brushed metal, the new Mac mini features a square shape with rounded edges and is somewhat similar in appearance to an Apple AC power adapter. It features a slot-loading CD-RW/DVD-ROM Combo drive, USB 2.0, FireWire 400, DVI and VGA connectivity.
The Mac mini comes in two models -- a 1.25GHz, 40GB G4 system for $499 and an 80GB 1.42GHz G4 system for $599.
With XP Home, a far inferior 600 MHz processor, the same amount of RAM, a smaller 20 GB hard drive, a plain old CD-ROM, and having them build and test it, it costs $562.
Bringing it closer to spec with the mac mini, we leave it on XP home (though XP pro is more comparable to OS X), update the processor to a EPIA MII 10000 1GHz (probably not as fast, they're slow chips, but we're trying to be super-fair), bump the hard drive to 40 Gigs, and include a CD-RW/DVD, and of course keep the build and test, we reach $683.
There very well may be less expensive systems in this form factor, but it seems the mac mini is competitive in that market .
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
A config based off this could probably better match up with that, with a processor folks actually trust. But it's a great deal for mac users, especially the emac/imac set that want to get a monitor of whatever size they want.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Lets see, mac mini at 6.5x6.5x2, vs that at 8.3x12.7x7.4.
84.5 cubic inches vs 780.034. Not exactly in the same size class, are they?
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Personal preference. You can't put a different video card, scsi card, gigabit card, or what not in that MacMini. What happens if you want to get that fancy superdrive later? I'd prefer something a bit bigger that is a ton more flexible.
Edit: I consider the size class to be 'way smaller than a normal system'.
[ January 11, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: TheTick ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
But I'm not trying to compare based on things like that. Clearly, to some people how small the computer system is matters a lot, and the Mac mini has managed to bring fairly good functionality into the ultra-small range at a price I don't see anybody matching.
If the size of the computer system doesn't matter as much to you then of course a larger one with more features may well be more appropriate.
Of course, in the market apple's in, this is at a wonderful price point as the very lowest price machine by a wide margin. This is because the market apple's in is machines that run OS X. So in that market (as well as the really small size market), this machine should perform really well.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And nearly an order of magnitude difference in size is certainly quite a bit .
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I know it has a market, but I'm looking at it like this - what actual advantage is there to going THAT small? I don't want to move it every day. What's the benefit, other than getting to pick out what size monitor you have? And I hope it has a security lock slot (edit: it does).
[ January 11, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: TheTick ]
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Does anybody else see that this is really a remarketing of the Cube?
The Cube was high end, and this is low cost. It just seems to me that they reevaluated their market, and reintroduced the same concept.
As far as size goes, there was a time when people upgraded their computers. Nowadays people just replace them as speed and new interfaces are introduced. There are some that want to install specialized cards and such, but this product just isn't for them. It's a disposable computer.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
1) People who want it to serve media for a TV or speakers
2) People who want to try Mac OS X on a new machine for a low price.
3) People who want to upgrade their old machines, but wouldn't mind using their old monitor/keyboard/mouse (I have a friend this would be perfect for).
4) People who care about aesthetics (see people who get spoilers on their cars, or luxury items in general).
5) People who need a medium-grade LAN machine for stuff like Starcraft or WC III.
[ January 11, 2005, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: dabbler ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"2) People who want to try Mac OS X on a new machine for a low price."
And don't mind having it run very, very slowly.
Bear in mind, this is the old surplus G4 that they've repackaged into a really big, screenless PDA.
I'll keep my upgradeable small form factor machine, thanks. But, yeah, there's probably a Machead market for this, although I can't imagine who they'd be; why someone would want to buy a cheap, small, non-upgradeable machine that's slower than the rest of the stuff on the market doesn't make much sense to me, but it's been my experience that the products which make the least sense to me are the most popular with Apple's user base. Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
since the specs are very similar to the iMac I have, I can say with much experience that Mac OS X 10.3 runs very smoothly on those specs.
I agree that one would prefer more ram, but for websurfing, Terminal, mail, and media-watching there's no need.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Yeah!
Being a total Mac head, I'm celebrating today!
I want one! And the iShuffle!
And it looks live everyone else wants one! store.apple.com is DOWN
[ January 11, 2005, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Tools.
[ January 11, 2005, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Somehow less than impressive when ya can get a PC with a faster CPU, a larger RAM, more disc memory, and a 17inch flat panel screen and an Epson photoprinter for $399 after rebates.
Really ticks me off too. All I want is a 17inch flat panel, and the cheapest one I can find is $275.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Tom, as I pointed out and nobody has contradicted, at that form factor and price the mac is significantly faster . Also, as OS X runs just fine on a 400 MHz g3, this'll run it more than fine, except for the RAM. The one thing I really wish about the new mac is that it would have 512 MB of RAM.
And Tick, there are some people who want a machine they can throw in a backpack, but don't want a laptop. However, as pointed out, the primary market is people who want to run OS X, and this is the only non-laptop mac in anything like that form factor And its faster than any laptop which comes anywhere near its price.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
I might actually pick up a mac. TOO BAD THEY CANT PLAY GAMES . You can often get really good deals on dell for desktops in this price-range. I build the machines I use, so getting a mac would be an interesting journey for me, at least I don't have to spend 1k+ now.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
Are we running into the old Pentium vs. PowerPC clock rate thing again? Remember, a 700MHz G4 performs more flops than a 1.2 GHz Pentium.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
quote: TOO BAD THEY CANT PLAY GAMES
I wish they couldn't. I might get to use my own computer from time to time.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Most games, Rav, most games .
Anyways, games are why God gave us consoles .
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, just thought of a really good potential use for the Mac Mini. You know how pretty much all lecture halls at major universities have computers to handle what the professor wants to present?
Well, this seems ideally suited for the task. Cheap, small enough to be locked away in pretty much anything that's handy instead of requiring a large and special enclosure, has a DVI connector (essential and not found on many low end PCs which tend to have on board graphics), and is running an OS that means they don't have to worry too much about updates. Plus, OS X is darn good at hooking into all sorts of authentication systems.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Yeah. I can build a computer this size, with more features and better stuff in it, for about the same price. Yes, I have to fashion my own case, but that's not all that hard. Okay, so it wouldn't look that great. Still, I can do it
edit: Out of curiosity, isn't the G4 about two generations old now? Wouldn't that be a pretty crappy processor? Come on, if it's exactly the same as the old G4, the Architecture is like 3 years old. That's ancient in computer time.
[ January 11, 2005, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think you might be rather overestimating your ability to deal with heat (and size, for that matter). Tell you what, if you do it, as decided by a panel of, oh, Dagonee, someone of your choosing, and TomD, I will buy your computer off of you for $100 more than it cost you to make it.
Some basic rules: must have as much RAM, a CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive, the ability to have 802.11b and bluetooth installed (I use both), DVI out (my monitor uses it), firewire (I have external stuff that uses it), USB 2, and must be no more than 50% bigger in size by volume. In order to be considered successful, it must be able to run under normal usage indefinitely under some normal operating conditions. If the judges feel additional conditions are needed here, they are free to include them based on the specs of the Mini.
If the judges find it to be hard to decide if it meets those criteria, as a tie breaker how loud it is shall be used. If it is "annoying" under whatever criteria the judges use for that judgement, it fails. It should be noted that the Mac Mini is, as far as those who have seen it and checked know, completely silent absent a little hard drive noise, though none observed it long enough to know if a fan kicks in now and then.
edit: oh yes, and you must be within $25 on parts price including any shipping (the Mac Mini ships free, and any shipping of the parts to apple is clearly included in the price of the machine as a whole). If the judges feel the shipping condition is overly unreasonable they may amend or remove it, but I encourage them to consider it as many people consider shipping costs a very important criterion for product discrimination in shopping.
[ January 11, 2005, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ooh, I get to be a judge. Power!
I love Mac/PC geek fights. So much passion.
And Boris, that judging panel is extremely fair to you. I've owned one Mac, and I hated it. Actually, my company owned it so we could test out web apps on a Mac browser for an ad agency client.
Dagonee
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
One thing the panel may wish to add on is some "penalty cost" to the PC for windows XP, as the mac will come with a comparable OS. It clearly shouldn't be the full retail price, but it might be good to have an amount comparable with OEM prices. I won't insist on it, though.
And of course, no really dinky PC processors. It has to be something the judge considers at least comparable to the G4 in normal daily activity.
Oh, and it needs to be capable of running windows, if you make it (and I thus purchase it), I'll be dual booting (I won't insist linux compatibility be verified at all, that's far too onerous, and will likely be true at least on the most part). I could use a decent dev computer for windows stuff.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Actually, the only really unfair requirements there, AFAIC, are:
1) Bluetooth (which is far less common in the non-Mac world, and I don't consider it particularly essential as long as the machine has USB ports).
2) DVI-Out (which is, again, not necessarily common in PCs, and will limit the use of bargain PC video cards -- thus necessitating that Boris buy a custom video solution, dramatically increasing his cost, since he won't be able to negotiate a bulk rate like, say, Apple can).
3) Firewire. I'd consider USB2.0 to be more necessary -- but agree that the presence of at least one Firewire port would be a nice perk.
I'd also require 802.11g, which is a better protocol all-around.
[ January 12, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Throw it in a backpack? I hope the components are put together with that in mind like a notebook would be. And that only works when you are going to a place where you know there is a monitor, keyboard, mouse and speakers for you to use. I'm mostly yanking your chain here, I respect what Apple has done recently, I just don't think they are nearly as special as their marketing would have you believe.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
Ah, but Tom, since fugu is asking that Boris actually build this computer, as fugu plans to buy it from him (assuming the specs are met), these criteria actually matter. This makes it more than just the intellectual exercise that these things usually are.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Which is, as far as I can tell, why the Mac Mini also includes a Radeon 9200. But that rather severely limits your video card options. If you don't insist on a DVI-Out port, there are numerous better budget cards out there nowadays.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I don't insist on the particular video card, I do insist on DVI-out, as I use it. Really he should include a DVI to VGA connnector as well, as the Mac Mini comes with one, but that's up to the judges.
If he's building this for me, he needs to meet the specs I already use, though. And he was the one who said
quote:Yeah. I can build a computer this size, with more features and better stuff in it, for about the same price.
As I'm not even insisting on some of the conditions I consider important to Mac's appeal and marketshare (such as low noise), I think insisting on actual feature parity for the features I use is completely reasonable (he doesn't even need to install the bluetooth or 802.11b/g, as the mini doesn't come with them by default, though if he wants to outside of the judging I'd be willing to pay for them and a bit more for the convenience of the installation, assuming the computer will be bought by me under the terms I laid out).
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and not only do I use DVI at home, but had I this system I would on occasion be bringing it into class to hook into the projection equipment there, which require DVI out.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
See, I would insist on low noise before I'd insist on DVI-Out. I'd permit him to include a VGA-to-DVI adapter.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I really ask you not to, there's a reason DVI exists, and that's because on a really large screen VGA'll look crappy. I want to be able to use it in a classroom on projector screens.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* Okay. But you realize that by imposing that requirement you're severely limiting his ability to compete on performance, right? Because you can build a machine around that size and for that price that could seriously blow the Mini away on performance, provided you could use any one of the video cards you're not letting him use.
I'm thinking a machine built around one of the SFF NForce4 mobos might be competitive, since it comes with onboard GeForce graphics, Firewire, USB2, 5.1 Dolby, and wireless LAN. Heat might be an issue -- he'd have to rig some serious sinks and/or underclock everything to fit it into a slightly smaller chassis -- but otherwise it wouldn't take much engineering.
Requiring DVI-Out, sadly, instantly disqualifies most integrated motherboard solutions for the PC; I'm not aware of one that exists offhand. And so unless he wants to come up with his own integrated motherboard, he's going to have to escalate to an AGP-slotted board -- which will increase size and cost.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Best price I found from one source is $731 shipped. 10in x 5.8in x 2.8in size, Celeron 2ghz, 256mb mem, fw/usb2, TV out, slot load DVD/CDRW, etc. If I just get the case there and parts elsewhere I can do much better, maybe another $80 less. May be better deals out there though. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
See, Tom, absolute performance isn't what matters to me (or I'd imagine most computer users) at all. I need it to do what I want it to do, which means performing in those situations I want it to perform in.
And a DVI-out is central to a good number of those situations.
Similarly the possibility of bluetooth, and wireless.
I'm not shopping for a desktop computer, here, and that's not really what the mini is aimed at, I'm shopping for a really easy to transport computer that's not expensive, which is clearly one of the target markets of the mini. After all, if the places you're going have keyboards, mice, and monitors, the mini'll be a better fit than any laptop in the same price range (particularly as it'll be more portable than many of the laptops in the same price range).
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Tick, that's about twice the size by volume, but if the judges are feeling incredibly lenient they might allow it .
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and if Boris concedes the challenge, I'd be willing to let you give it a try, though, Tick. I really could use such a computer, and $625 or less (plus cost of bluetooth and wireless) isn't all that much for such a one.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and if someone does take the challenge, please just put in a 512 stick of RAM; the judges should evaluate it as the price of a 256 stick, and I'll pay the cost of the 512 when I purchase. I just like my RAM, and it shouldn't make a meaningful different in the operating capacity of the system (regarding heat and such).
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
In all reality, the only hard part about building this computer is finding/building a case for it. Heat isn't an issue, really, since the case can be modified for extra heat expulsion, the CPU fan can easilly suck air straight from the outside with the size constraints, and I know a few tricks for putting a full-size video card into a system sideways using a AGP extension that could be fabricated for need and a reverse heatpipe/fan assembly that would move the fan from one side of the case to the other. I haven't done any real research on this yet, so I'm not 100% sure it can be done. I do know, however, that a computer that is comparable to a low-end dell (With much better performance and upgradability) can be built into a custom case. Lemme do some research and I'll see what I can do. And BTW, fugu, 100 dollars is less than the markup I could make on a Dell-speced budget system Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
But this isn't a Dell specced budget system, one thing macs have going for them is design and solid build quality.
Plus, you're merely going to try to prove that you could make such a thing without any markup at a similar price. Remember, I could go out and buy one of these myself at $500, so markup above and beyond that is money I'm essentially spending on it being able to run windows and RHEL.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
And coincidentally, that first system you linked to is considerably more expensive (as well as about twice the size) of the Mac Mini.
I put in the minimum processor, XP Home (they don't even have OEM prices), 256 MB of RAM (the minimum), a 40 GB hard drive (the minimum), and a plain old CD-ROM (remember, the mac mini has a CD-R/DVD-ROM), plus building and testing (only $35, and apple sure does it), and it came to $696.
[ January 12, 2005, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The thing is, fugu's going to win this one. Why? Because a large PC market is not thought to exist for what is essentially a screenless laptop system. Ergo, you won't be able to find an equivalent case -- and even if you custom-mod one, which I agree is easier than it sounds, you won't be able to find a motherboard that will fit into a case the size of the Mini that also has DVI-Out.
In order for such a motherboard to exist, a hardware company would have to decide that a market for an integrated motherboard that meets that spec would justify the cost of developing such a motherboard. And since there are already several motherboard form factors within that general size/price range, it's unlikely that a NEW form factor is going to be developed. And until PC users start demanding DVI-Out on their systems, the motherboards already within this size range aren't going to include that feature.
What Apple has done is, from a technical standpoint, relatively trivial. I'm fairly certain that Russell will concede this. The risk and "innovation" here comes in aiming at a market that PC manufacturers do not recognize. If such a market exists, the short-term potential benefits are huge -- at least until PC manufacturers figure out that market exists and begin making motherboards to those specs. If such a market does not exist, we'll wind up with a Cube.
That said, the mere existence of this system -- http://www.oqo.com/ -- should indicate that we're talking about markets, not technology.
[ January 12, 2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Which is why I said that I could get it a lot closer by getting parts from other sources and putting it together myself (the memory, for one, is outrageous, and the proc and HD can be had much cheaper as well). Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
Some people really enjoy spending several hours putting together a computer from scratch for fun. Others don't. Even if you charge yourself something low, like $20/hr for labor, it's going to be a major investment into the total cost of the machine.
How's the warranty like on those custom machines? If the video card wipes out, does the company cover the card even though you did the install work?
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
TV out adapter costs $59 I think.
My Linux programmer brother is buying one!
My Windows programmer friend wants one to "dabble" on!
I think for this crowd (which seems to really love PC hardware), the only reason to get the box is because you REALLY want Mac OS X and a native PowerPC is better than PearPC.
Someone at MacWorld said that the thing IS user modifyable, but Apple's policy is that it is "not". So you void the warranty if you mess with it. If you are familar with the MacMod crowd, that wont stop you:
And it aint slow! Those who think that obviously have never used a PowerPC G4 (and if you have, it was probably a few years ago...).
I will say I think the biggest defect it has is the RAM and video card are not good enough. $400 to upgrade to 1gig?!?! That is ridiculous.
Other than that the thing rocks.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Tom's right on it with that. Heck, many of the existing mini-itx PC systems I've seen are geared toward installations in kiosks, cars, and the like. I just haven't seen a big home user push for a form factor that small. Maybe Apple will create one. Maybe it'll be another Cube.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, sorry Tick.
Lets see, we'll take your guesstimate, remove XP Home, and remove the build and test costs. That brings it to . . . about $420 before shipping, or $120 for 256 MB of RAM, a celeron 2GHz, DVD-ROM/CD-R. No DVI, and what appears to be a significantly worse graphics card:
Even were there a slot for it (I didn't see mention of one), you'd still have to fit shipping and a graphics card with DVI in for $105 or less. Possible, I grant, though we're still doubling the initial criteria's size expansion allowance. And of course, there isn't an internal slot.
Yes, Tom, exactly .
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yeah, someone's already gotten a look in one, and its just a standard RAM slot. They just don't want you taking it apart that far.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I can't WAIT to get the requests for replacement parts on those.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Pretty much all the parts except the central motherboard and vid card are standard parts (at least for apple, in the case of the bluetooth and wireless).
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Yes, you're right. What I'd be building would be a Sempron 2400+ with 512 megs ram. 40 gig HD? No problem. Combo drive, is 24x18x24x8 okay? I can get integrated DVI, but it is hooked to a motherboard that is in a case that is allready outside of spec. All the Barebones (Like the ones Tick mentioned) have an incredible ammount of wasted space, so I could do a hack job and cut them down to the right size. If I put a full on video card in this, your mac is completely blown out of the water. I mean, the video card in my computer has the same specs as the Mac Mini, for crying out loud. The Mini-mac more than likely uses shared RAM for its video, and this system wouldn't if it had a full video card. But if you really insist...However, 100 dollars over my costs wouldn't make this deal worth it to me unless I can find a case that allready fits the specifications, or at least comes close. Like I said, I could fabricate something, but it would be ugly since I'm not good at fabbing stuff, and if I DID do that, you'd have a one-of-a-kind computer. Parts for a computer like this would cost me about $350, without the case. If you're willing to take something in a cardboard box, I'm down. Otherwise, if I can't find a case, allready existing, that will fit this with a little tinkering, 100 dollars just isn't a fair enough prize for my effort. Now, I said I *could* do it for that price, and it is possible. What's more, it'd be upgradeable, like the Mac-Mini isn't (For starters, think 2-3 gigs of RAM as opposed to 256 megs). Now the fact that I can't find a case that fits this configuration aside, it could be done as follows...
Using slim-line Combo Drive instead of Full sized drive, on top of a 40gig Laptop hard-drive with a converter (five dollar part) to allow IDE connection. Mount these over the PCI bays of your average Micro-ATX motherboard. There would be a hole right in the side of the case to accomodate the CPU-fan, so that it draws air directly from its environment. Place a single, slim 60mm fan over the ram slots to allow for heat to be pulled from there. Using a Shuttle 250W PSU, which is 1.5 inches tall and has its own heat system to round out the system, it all fits inside the 150% window you've given me. The only thing that I don't have and probably can't get is the case. And frankly, this whole system would really, REALLY blow the Mac Mini away, since its using hardware that isn't even remotely new. The system I'd build, if I had a case, would be upgradeable to an AMD 3200+ with a 400mhz FSB...My only real point in saying I could do it was to make note of the fact that I think this Mac Mini is nothing more than clever marketing to recover from Apple making too many G4 processors, and that I don't think its as big a deal as people are making it out to be. So after all that, unless you feel like upping the bargain to say, $1000 prize, I think I'll pass on this one Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
And just so you know, Intel's Pico-BTX form factor is going to be incredibly small, with only 2 expansion slots. The MAIN advantage that Apple has is that they aren't designed to be upgradeable. As such, there isn't a whole lot of wasted space. Most PC's have an incredible ammount of wasted space. Even those barebone systems Tick mentioned can be cut down on size by about an inch. Some of the ones I looked at had half-size Power-supplies that wasted a good 30-40 cubic inches. Tom's right, though, it is a matter of market. Most Mac don't need all the power that is in, say, my computer. Many of those users would like the ability to carry around a full computer without having it take up space. But the kind of people who use PC's that care how big their computer is also want the ability to pack some major performance into it. To do that, manufacturers have to worry about making the case upgradeable, which means you have to fit an expansion card into the case. If you don't have or want any expansion cards, that's about 60 cubic inches of wasted space right there. But anyway, I'm just rambling on and on now Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Yeah...I say that all the time when I put together systems at work Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The mac mini does not use shared RAM. Apple considers that practice anathema to good design.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Also, I don't think you quite follow what size by volume entails. If you expand each spec about equally, you have approx. an additional half inch in each direction.
Also, I think you'll find that the G4, while slightly old, will slap your video card's processor silly, especially if we have to do any floating point calculations. Its quite a solid chip.
As for you finding a motherboard which fits, takes 2-3 gigs of RAM (and still fits), and can handle the heat, you're just blustering now, unless you're talking single 1GB chips, which are a tad bit expensive. I don't think you realize how small this is.
Not to mention that you keep acting as if performance is all that matters. A case this big should not be set up to take 2-3 gigs of RAM. If you have that kind of space for these purposes, it should be modified so the case is smaller or the computer operates more silently.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
I called a local MacDoc's and they said they'd install any ram I brought in for $15 service fee. NOT voiding warranty.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
They have active cooling systems for ram, now, you know. And an average, run of the mill Micro-ATX motherboard can handel 2 gigs of RAM no problem, some can handle 3. Here's one. And that one has Dual channel capability. So, no. I'm not blustering. As for heat, RAM doesn't generate as much as you think, unless it is overclocked. In any case, a single, slim exhaust fan placed over the RAM slots will allow a tight form-factor case to handle that much RAM, even without an active heat system. And for noise, if you know what you're doing, noise isn't a problem.
As a side note, I'm speaking of my video card in a pure frequency/RAM comparison. In that light, the Mac Mini has about 300mhz more than my video card and the same ammount of RAM.
But you're acting like I'm insulting your wonderful little Mac. I don't care. I just think that it's a waste of money to spend 500 dollars one what is basically a 3 year old computer in a really tiny case, especially since there doesn't appear to be a monitor involved anywhere. Why wouldn't I just take my 500 bucks and buy a used laptop with the same/better specs off eBay? I personally don't see the point to this little machine.
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
OT question while this esteemed group is gathered here.... i have an old G4 cube that is exhibiting a strange problem that MAY be traceable to the video card. Can anyone tell me:
can it be swapped out? (i am assuming so, from various traffic i've read here and there)
What sort of brand/specs/etc should i be looking for? (Note, i don't have any high-end gaming needs -- just regular media and graphic design apps)
What sort of cost range am i looking at?
Can I do this myself?
Thanks. And just to make this relevant: if I can't get my Cube fixed, I might look at this Mini. Also, from what I understand, the Mini IS patently a marketing ploy -- but not an empty one. With thousands of Ipods, etc., in the hands of users who are otherwise ignorant of Apple, I think they're making a reasonably savvy move by attempting to make the brand accessible to all.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Well, I don't know about the video card, but I know people have turned them into dual G4/450's. They have added fans, bigger hard drives, etc. I don't see why you couldn't do it yourself.
There are tons of Cube mod owners. They tend to love the thing, even though it died (because it was WAY overpriced (WAY), unlike the mac mini IMHO). Search Google and you should find stuff. I thought there was a G4 cube site, but I didn't find it right off.
[ January 12, 2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
[ January 12, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
Posted by John Van Pelt (Member # 5767) on :
Thank you.
Yes, i am unjustifiably brave, to judge by the junkheap of electronic parts that is my closet.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I would be extremely interested to see the parts list you think you can accomplish this task with, Boris .
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Gladly. Do you have a Newegg account?
edit: Just in case you didn't know, it is possible to use laptop processors on desktop motherboards. And I found a VGA to DVI connector...so there goes that limitation.
[ January 12, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Oh yeah. Parts came out to 431.27 without shipping, somewhere around 450 with shipping. Add on 30 dollars for a couple of these with shipping. Tag on maybe 40 bucks for the sheetmetal to make a case (It'd probably be closer to 20 dollars since I can get a bare case for that, but I'm being generous). Total cost is $520...For a computer with a faster processor, more RAM, and everything else you wanted...The only exception being firewire. Sorry. I never used it anyway Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"And I found a VGA to DVI connector...so there goes that limitation."
Nope. Here's the problem: Fugu is saying he wants a DVI quality signal with no analog distortion, presumably because the screen he's using as a display source is so big that any distortion is easily visible (which is, IMO, a really niggling complaint, but it's clearly important to him). A converter will not give you DVI quality; it'll just make it possible to use your RGB-quality signal with a DVI.
As I said before, his insistence on a DVI-Out is probably the single most problematic requirement on his spec sheet.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Hey, if you are going to build a tiny computer, the cubeowners have articles about this. That way you could make it a PowerPC! (then you could run Mac OS X on it!!)
To understand us Mac users, you have to know that we love our computers and give them the very best we can, even if it costs a pretty penny. Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Boris are you going to do tech support for windows too ?
If I didn't play as many games as I did I could probably completely migrate over to a mac, I just do way to much stuff that doesn't work on a mac. Although I still am interested in maybe getting one so that I could have a dev machine I wouldn't have to worry about ever. (Not to mention a terminal machine that I don't have to worry about either.)
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Boris, I want to see the list. You can't just say they'll fit together in that much space, and as you aren't going to build it, we need to see the list to make sure its at least theoretically possible.
Not to mention that I regularly need to project stuff on full projector screens, and I'm regularly inconvenienced by not having a nice little box like this to do it with, so its hardly niggling. Its a real and valid requirement for what I want out of such a system, and if Boris says he can meet the qualifications of that system it needs to be met.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I was planning on sending you a parts list through newegg fugu. But doesn't matter anyway. The power supply I picked won't fit the way I thought it would I'd probably end up going about 20 cubic inches over your limit because of that (That and I just realized that my laptop-IDE connector won't work for the drive, and I can't find a suitable replacement). But the fact that I can't get a DVI connector on a Micro ATX case kills it completely. I was a little hasty in saying I could make it that size . At any rate...I did find this . But like I said earlier. There's a LOT of wasted space in that. If you want to know exactly... Any Micro ATX board will work. An Athlon XP mobile chip is what I would have used, with This CPU fan Your typical PC-3200 RAM. One of these. This , if I could find an adapter . This , with the adapter mentioned earlier. And this just for your typical power requirements. I don't know the exact size all that would fit in. The biggest problem I have for fitting this in the right size case is the PCI slots on the motherboard. I *think* it's possible to remove them and terminate the connections and have it work. I don't know about that, though. If I COULD do that, things would fit a lot better. At any rate, I bow to your superior intellect fugu and humbly withdraw from this thread (Is that what you were wanting to prove with all this crap? Frankly, I wasted half my day on this stuff. Next time, be a pal and don't challenge me to do something.).
[ January 12, 2005, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Micro-ATX boards are as much as 9.6 inches on a side, which is far larger than the Mac mini.
I'm not saying you should "bow to my intellect" or anything of the sort, but I'm tired of people bashing macs when they're not correct.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Then you just say, "Boris, Micro ATX boards are 9.6 inches at a minimum" like a normal person instead of having me go around looking for parts. I'm not banishing Mac. YOU were banishing PC's in the first & second post. So practice what you preach and start accepting the fact that the two are just DIFFERENT!!!
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Boris he wasn't bashing, he was comparing. If these had been out a year ago, I'd probably have one.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Boris, I just looked that up right before I posted (because you said any Micro ATX board would do), and they aren't 9.6in at minimum, they're 9.6in at maximum. I'm not an expert at building PCs at all, you said you were pretty hot stuff (an I still think you are, you're definitely quite knowledgable), and I assumed when you said you could build one that size you had actually looked at what size they are.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Not to mention that I regularly need to project stuff on full projector screens, and I'm regularly inconvenienced by not having a nice little box like this to do it with, so its hardly niggling."
The "niggling" bit comes from the fact that I've yet to see an affordable projector that can project onto a giant screen without distortion from the lens itself dwarfing distortion from an analog signal. Movie theaters have projectors of that sort, but they cost $100,000; your typical college doesn't spend that kind of money.
Unless your college recently received a million dollars to upgrade their projection equipment, I'd wager that upsampling a high-resolution analog output would probably look just fine when blown up to 15 feet across.
But, then, I'm playing with projectors that cost around $2500 and not seeing substantial difference; there may be a midpoint here that I'm just not aware of.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
This thread is a very good demonstration of what it is Mac has done. The PC world has been stuck with the same basic form factor for its entire existence. In fact while we've been told that the technology should be getting faster and smaller, I've actually seen larger and larger cases for PCs. I think the Mini Mac is merely a demonstration of ability and nothing else. The market may be small for it, but that's always been the case with innovations that change the way we do things (cell phones, digital cameras, computers in general). I see this as Apple pushing the entire market towards the "...cheaper, smaller" end of the pyramid.
Just because you won't buy it doesn't mean that it's not worth what Apple has put into it. I can see huge changes in the way we compute because of this.
Bottom Line: It's about time!
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Some news on the Mac Mini:
It has NO user installable parts. You void your warranty unless you are Apple Service Authorized.
The Airport card it uses is not (as above) user installable and is not the same as the one for the other systems, so even if you wanted to get it and put it in, you can't.
2.5in 4200rpm HD (not surprised there for heat and size).
I'm not surprised with the ETA being 3 to 4 weeks now...Apple has a history of product not shipping out when they announce it, although this should be better since it's existing technology they are reusing.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"This thread is a very good demonstration of what it is Mac has done. The PC world has been stuck with the same basic form factor for its entire existence."
Speaking as a guy who uses as his primary machine a computer that's about the same size and shape as a child's shoebox, I'll tell you right now that this isn't true; there is a rapidly-growing trend towards SFF manufacturing in the PC sector.
In general, however, I will agree PC users tend to care more about what goes into cases than what the cases themselves look like, and that the need for backwards hardware and software compatibility -- something Apple users tend to dismiss -- has limited the amount of design revolution that most PC users are willing to accept.
The Mac Mini is not a particularly impressive demonstration of ability; it's basically a cheap G4 Powerbook without a screen or keypad, which probably goes a long way towards cutting the manufacturing costs. I don't imagine they had to do much if any serious engineering to produce this computer, since they already control the motherboard manufacturing process. I've already linked to a machine that is many, many times more impressive: http://www.oqo.com.
[ January 13, 2005, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Tom, I'm at one of the most wired universities in the United States (IU). Not only do we have high quality screens in most classrooms, often with a decent PC, every lecture hall has a high end PC and a high end Mac (dual g5 of some kind).
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yes, the oqo is far more impressive technologically. Of course, its also many times more expensive, and aimed at completely different markets . It starts at $1899.
No, the Mac Mini is not a hugely impressive piece of engineering, though it is still a nice piece of engineering. It does, however, occupy an interesting space.
In part because of the commodity nature of PC components, it is not possible to construct a PC which occupies that space. Furthermore, even if PC manufacturers start making PCs with the same target, it'll likely continue to be quite hard to assemble comparable ones at decent prices, for similar reasons to why people don't hand assemble laptops.
In other words, its one of those fields apple can compete in, just like laptop sales (did you see the ibook sales they just reported? They were huge). Its not so much that the build your own crowd is that big (its not at all), but that its that influential. Similarly (yet in many ways opposite) to how open source and java developer adoption of OS X has helped drive its success, the lack of a iconic home built alternative will preserve a sense of especiality.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
Tom, I'm not denying the fact that there are some PCs out there that are different in design. My statement was a generalization and maybe I should have said that. I've had around three new computers in the last four years here at work and each one was the same basic design with a different color. Truth is, basic PC users will be stuck using the old tower design for who knows how long.
If you walk into any computer store, you'll see them still selling these towers maybe with a fan installed in the sidewall or neon lights or whatever dohickees they can fit. The PC market for some reason hasn't put its engineering abilities to work.
Anybody having some knowledge of business is familiar with the faster, cheaper, smaller pyramid; you can only chose two under normal conditions. Apple has gone against the norm and left out the faster side; we'll see if it paid off. Personally I think it will. Good for them.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Keyboard, mouse, megaphone and display sold separately.
Fine print from Apple's Mac Mini page.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
The OQO is pretty sweet as well, although for a completely different market.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
Apple sells megaphones now?! Why didn't I hear about this?
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Fine print, Tick?
First two paragraphs on the main Mac Mini page:
quote:Live the digital life in stylish simplicity. Just 6.5 inches wide and 2 inches tall, Mac mini provides what you need to have more fun with your music, photos and movies — right out of the box. And it boasts a miniscule price to match: Mac mini starts at $499.
Get a Mac for Less
The modular design of Mac mini lets you upgrade your current system to the elegance, simplicity and reliability of Macintosh. If you already own a monitor, keyboard and mouse, you can get up and running in minutes. Or choose any combination of new devices to meet your individual situation. And yes, Mac mini will take advantage of your two-button USB mouse with scroll-wheel and your favorite USB keyboard. Just plug them in.
First paragraph on main Tech Specs page:
quote:Introducing the Mac mini. Everything you need — and not an ounce more — to enjoy digital photos, music and movies. Get a fast G4 processor, slot-loading CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive and a reliable operating system in a body just 6.5-inches square and 2-inches tall. Simply add monitor, keyboard and mouse.
First paragraph on main Accessories page:
quote:Outfit your Mac mini to do just what you want with your digital life. You’ll need to add keyboard, mouse and display at the minimum. But the rest is up to you. Suit your style, whether you put your Mac mini in your bedroom, home office or kitchen. Transform a Mac mini into your personal recording studio, digital darkroom, movie stage, home theater, family communication center or all of the above.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I was just pointing out their little megaphone joke, Poly. Chill on the zealotry. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm sitting here envisioning what Apple would do with a redesign of the megaphone. It would cost $800 and .... And there the ideas run out, because megaphones generally don't have more than one button to remove, anyway.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Actually, the internal architecture of any of the G5 computers is pretty impressive, though granted thats because of cooperation between IBM and Apple.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I thought IBM just had a hand in the processor.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
The megaphone would have to meet the specifications to run Keynotes, which I believe is a G3 at least.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Heh. You'd press the button and a pleasant robotic voice would speak for you. And it would have a selection of preset phrases which are polite that cannot be changed.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: TheTick ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I was under the impression IBM was simply building processors for Apple and all other infrastructure was designed solely by Apple.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: The PC market for some reason hasn't put its engineering abilities to work.
Go here. The PC industry (more specifically, Intel) has been working for several years on replacing current designs. The difficulty comes in finding a solid design that can be replicated easilly by motherboard manufacturers. The other problem is phasing in a completely new method for building boards. The pico-BTX boards in the above article are about 5.5x7 inches. In order to mass produce those, you have to design and implement new production machinery, which costs millions. For the most part, the large ammounts of wasted space in a PC is not done away with because of computer technicians like me I hate working in a cramped case. I'm actually not looking forward to the BTX form factor, because it means my hands are going to get cut up so badly I'll have to have a bottle of rubbing alchohol and some cotton balls in every repair bay.
What I'm wondering, right now, is why Apple is taking so long to hit the PDA market. Granted, I remember the fact that they tried to enter the market long ago (Didn't they invent the PDA? I can't really remember) and it was a dismal failure. But knowing what they do now about building systems, and with the commonplace use of PDA's, you'd think they would have jumped on the wagon a long time ago. But then, I'm really starting to think that Apple is only focusing on the Niche markets for some reason.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
They had the Newton, which IIRC still has devotees who wish they could get a new one.
Apple doesn't like the PDA market because that'd mean they'd have to add another OS and architecture to their stable, I think.
Plus, the PDA market is more of a commodity market. Apple doesn't like commodity markets. Now, they will on occasion create a non-commodity niche in something of a commodity market (such as with the iPod), but that market was already fairly heterogenous.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
It's 7.6x9 inches (230x200mm according to shuttle's web sit.. So it might actually work if I could drop the height of the thing down to 1.5 inches, which comes pretty close. But everything would be an insanely tight fit, and like I said, no converter for the CD Burner and no DVI kills it. Still, it is possible to make a REALLY small PC. In fact, I've seen an article on one guy who fit a PC into a model of the Millenium Falcon (That made me laugh).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:In general, however, I will agree PC users tend to care more about what goes into cases than what the cases themselves look like
To be fair, I think you need to say that anyone who cared about the look of the cases had no where else to go except a few boutique PC makers.
I wouldn never buy a Mini. I like power, power, and more power, and care very much about upgrading (although I use laptops which are pretty much not upgradable). In a system I don't have to haul around, I'll engineer my own solution to the space issue, and I don't want to see my PC anyway.
But more power to people who want a Mini, as long as they know what they're giving up. Same goes for those who give up on looks in order to get other features.
Go capitalism!
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"To be fair, I think you need to say that anyone who cared about the look of the cases had no where else to go except a few boutique PC makers."
Although if we're going to say that, we have to also say, to be fair, that Apple IS a boutique PC maker.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
They're much bigger than other boutique maker, I believe, at 3.5% of the market.
But, in a sense, you're right: they market to a customer base with particular sensibilities.
[ January 13, 2005, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
RAM by itself is about 1.2 inches high .
But yes, it is possible to make very small PCs. The Mac Mini, though, is one more step in Apple's digital hub idea. While it is a computer, that's not what sells it.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You know, I really think the institutional usage of the Mac Mini could be big if it were to catch on.
It fits in a drawer, can easily be hooked up to a projector cable, and doesn't need to be particularly looked after in terms of security against spyware/viruses.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Yep, sure does, and it fits just in the size requirements.
Of course, even without the operating system, at the minimal specs to compare to the Mac Mini, its $837 off the shelf.
Buying those parts independently (the processor, the RAM, the hard drive, the DVD/CD-RW drive) might be able to bring your cost down to around, what, $600 ($130 for all those)?
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Not to mention support for windows, that I don't want to do. No offense but I'm going to start recommending macs so I don't have to do support anymore.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Makes a certain amount of sense, particularly as most of the people you're recommending for'll at least have a monitor already if not a usb mouse and keyboard (and those can be had for < $30).
edit: also, your typical consumr is unlikely to find a decent quality premade system for under $350, and often more like $400. The Mac Mini just isn't that much more.
[ January 13, 2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Methinks I'll be sticking with my dual G5. Still, I'll be curious to see how it pans out, since plenty of people who follow what Apple's up to (myself included) were sure Apple would never, ever do this.
Edit: Oh yeah. Steve, where are those 3GHz G5s? Right, thanks.
[ January 13, 2005, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: twinky ]
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
I would be interested in getting one, and if I werent planning on getting a psp in about a month and a half I probably would be saving a little more to get one. (I just bought a nice Dell 2001fp so, I don't have much spending money at the moment.)
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
quote: (I just bought a nice Dell 2001fp so, I don't have much spending money at the moment.)
Isn't that an oximoron. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Why I'll be getting a windows computer at some point:
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But it's a great deal for mac users, especially the emac/imac set that want to get a monitor of whatever size they want.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I'd probably end up going about 20 cubic inches over your limit because of that (That and I just realized that my laptop-IDE connector won't work for the drive, and I can't find a suitable replacement). But the fact that I can't get a DVI connector on a Micro ATX case kills it completely. I was a little hasty in saying I could make it that size ![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
. At any rate...I did find this .![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)