Hey! I'm working on a paper discussing the differences between the American public school system and other school systems around the world. Currently I'm trying to find the causes behind the inferiority of the American system. If anyone has any suggestions or resources, I would absolutely love you forever! Thanks!
Posted by IrishAphrodite19 (Member # 1880) on :
Accountability.
That's all I'm gonna say, cuz I'm doing a paper on educational accountability and I'm not liking it. However, be careful how you ask for homework help around here...You might want to show that you've done some work on your own first.
~Irish
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Welcome to the board soubrette! I love your screen name! Are you a singer by any chance?
I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing, but I hope it helps you a little. if not, you could check out some of the sources this guy uses and see if they help you.
[ February 21, 2005, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
Posted by soubrette27 (Member # 7417) on :
I appreciate the advice.
I've been looking at accountablity. The actual idea of the paper is that schools should use quality management methods, including ISO 9000, which is about setting standards, recording those standards, and then meeting them. My biggest problem right now is finding data to compare, in American schools and other schools around the globe. I need some evidence and I don't seem to be finding very much.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Granted, I'm not reading any of these, but just throwing them at you, hoping that they help. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Canadians out essay-write Americans on AP exams, but Americans do better on the multiple choice.
Sorry, nothing to back it up.
Posted by MichelleEly (Member # 6737) on :
I think it was CBS news that advertised a story on the American school system and a new discovery on the #1 ingredient in sucessful teaching. I missed the story because I had to leave. Did anyone see it, and if so, what was the ingredient/factor? Michelle
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I don't like the idea of ISO 9000 as a way to improve schools.
Accountability is a nice sounding "thing" to point to as the root of all problems, but there are probably lots of things that could be done to improve schools without generating more top-level bureacracy (as would certainly be required if we were to set up accountability "programs" throughout the U.S.).
One good question is, of course, accountability to whom? Are we going to put all decisions in the hands of local school boards? Or maybe the Federal government should set minimum standards and enforce them, just as it did desegregation?
And who are we going to hold accountable? If Johnny drops out, do we punish his teachers? His parents? The school's principal? What's the stick that makes accountability work? And if there are still failures what then? Eliminate their funding? Have the next-higher level of government take over?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Currently I'm trying to find the causes behind the inferiority of the American system."
Out of interest, why do you presume the inferiority of the American system?
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
Also take into account that in many of the schools in Europe the students who are less academically inclined go into trade schools and are not represented in the stats.
Posted by soubrette27 (Member # 7417) on :
Tom... you caught me. My hypothesis is that American schools are inferior because that's what I've heard. I have a friend who is a transfer student from Sweden and she can't believe how we run thing around here. But as far as hard eveidence, that's what I'm going over right now.
Bob.... what do you think about Total Quality Management in schools?
Narnia.... I'm an amateur singer-songwriter; one day I'll be a rock star, but not today. Probably not tomorrow either. I'm a dancer too (which is where "soubrette" came from.
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
The same would appear to be true of many Asian schools. Only the absolute top-tier students continue their education, so statistics can be somewhat skewed.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
quote:.....can be somewhat skewed
I would think this makes a HUGE difference. Basically all high schools are like huge gifted and tallented classes with the environment and test scores that come with them.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Trade schools are wonderful.... I wish they weren't so frowned upon around here....
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
TQM is another flavor of the month when applied to things like government and especially things like schools. The "gurus" in these areas always seem to think that their "methods" will work anywhere but from what I've seen, they don't know beans about running a school or any kind of government function.
For my money, the best approach is one that looks at it from a purely service perspective. Improving customer service in public institutions is, to me, the really important goal. You define the services to be delivered and you figure out a set of definitions of "good service."
Quality will come under that.
But so will lots of other things that are a lot less approachable from either ISO or TQM methodologies, and yet are just as measurable, if you approach it properly.
But even with that as an approach, you still have to figure out what will work to improve "it" (whatever "it" is).
I also think it's important, when running services, to see how much of the money that's spent goes into delivering the actual services. If you look at it that way, I'm willing to bet that you find the trickle that finally reaches teachers and/or is put directly into education is pathetically small. Even if you leave out the capital budget and only look at salaries and supplies budgets.
Always follow the money, though.
Another typical finding from studies of service situations is that when you empower the people who most directly affect the customers, you get a lot better results than if you try to micromanage them. Some might say that teachers have too much autonomy now, but I'd beg to differ. The teachers I know are so inundated with the hairbrained schemes of their administration, the grant that was obtained without their input and now requires them to insert specific types of lessons into their already working lesson plans, etc. etc.
I think the bottom line is hire and retain good teachers, equip the classrooms, and then, if there's money left over, hire support staff, then if there's money left over, hire principals, then, if there's money left over, hire superintendents.
Coaches should be volunteers reporting a Physical Education instructor (who also has overall responsibility for keeping the programs safe).
Money flows to the classroom first.
And finally, parents get involved and stay involved. They are the most important customer advocates. They have to understand when their kids are screwing up and when it's something wrong with the teacher or the instruction.
This is too important a job to be left to a school board.
Posted by IrishAphrodite19 (Member # 1880) on :
I'd link you to sources, but everything I'm getting is though my univeristy's library. So I don't think you can get to it...
I'm writing my paper on whether or not accountability is the best method of reform for our schools. I've found reseach that discusses new methods of accountability by taking the power and putting it in the hands of the school districts or simply removing the high-stakes testing.
Accountability and the high-stakes testing that comes with it often remove quality teaching and teachers begin to "teach to the test". This can and does decrease actual learning and increase rote memorization for test.
When you ask who we should hold accountable, who should we hold accountable for what? Should we hold our teacher accountable for student learning? Yes. But the test we are using to prove student learning are not serving their purpose. Should we hold parent accountable for student learning? Yes. But we discussed this before, we can't stop incompetent people from having children. Should we hold the student accountable? I'm not sure. This is where I have the biggest problem with accountability. I'm not sure I buy into the idea that every student can achieve the same "high standard." I beveive that every student can achieve his or her own "high standard," though.
I don't really think punishment is a good thing. If you take a failing school and remove money, what is that going to do? Decrease moral and decrease funding. Duh. With a decrease in funding, teachers are going to loss the ability to bring in outside resources to "spice up" learning and find new ways to help students learn. Thus enabling teachers and schools to get stuck in a rut.
Then the government comes in with a "quick fix" while the school has already been shamed and shunned by the public and educational community.
But that is all I have to say, I think, because I need to go to bed so I can get up and go observe a freshman English class in the morning. I hope I didn't step on any toes and for all the teachers, I really do think you are doing an amazing job! And if you work in Kentucky, I'm even more amazed that you haven't chewed your hand off yet.
~Irish
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Teaching to the test isn't always great, but as long as the test is comprised of required knowledge that they were suppose to be learning anyway, how is that a problem? I have hed many teacers who taught to the test at times, and that helped their students a lot...but they always made sure to not limit the classes to just that material, so we weren't just learning that.
I think that leads to higher accountability...the results are evident....either the kids are learning the required material, or they aren't.
Also, most of the programs you list as "more sucessful" then our system are doing the very things you are against...higher emphasis on testing, for instance. They put kids on "tracks", which hetermine what type of training they get, whith only the top third getting into what we call college; and they don't have tenure problems like we do, so removing bad teachers is easier.
Also, it is funny that you bias is so obvious, even before you clarified it.
So, let me get this straight...you wnat higher accountability, while removing the easiest measuring tool...tests.
And you think that removing those will increase accountability?
[ February 22, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Even when the test has required knowledge, teaching to the test is often problematic. Teaching to the test doesn't typically mean teaching the subject matter on the test, at least not in any sort of context.
It means teaching specific facts, through memorization, often in isolation, which might be useful on the test. (and how important have the facts you memorized in school been in your life?)
And it means teaching techniques that work on the test -- phrases to use in short essays even if you don't know exactly what they mean, strategies for answering multiple choice questions, strategies for answering as many questions as possible in the time frame. That sort of thing.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That is poor implemtation,of teaching, not a flaw in teh measurement of knowledge. I had teachers who were test oriented, and teachers who weren't....and the ones who were still made time to discuss anything we didn't understand.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Of course its poor teaching, but its an example of poor teaching which results in good test scores, and is one common meaing of "teaching to the test".
Indeed, the big problem is that most standardized tests do not test learning, but indicators commonly associated with learning. Many schools and teachers have twigged to that, and teach to do well on those indicators rather than to actually learn.
As far as teaching to the test in the sense where a good teacher says they have to spend far too much time teaching to the test, there are two common meanings. One is, the school mandates something much like the above. Two is, the test involves so much in the way of inane facts or such that the teacher needs spend time making kids memorize those facts instead of learning how to think if they are to be successful on the test. There are other variants as well, of course.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I decided it was important to come back here and 'splain one of my statements. I may have come off more strongly against school administrations than I really intended. My mother ended her career in an administrative position. My future mother-in-law is also part of school administration.
Mom also worked on grants that were fairly new-edge things that probably imposed things on the schools that benefited from those funds.
So...indulge me as I clarify.
I grew up in school systems when the money for education was there and didn't suffer from the kinds of limitations that we see in many places today.
My mother worked in such a system. So does my future mom-in-law, judging from what I've seen of spending on education in MN and the fact that their schools are doing very well in national rankings. And this particular school district in particular looks pretty darned good academically.
What I wanted to say is that if communities are struggling to pay teachers a decent wage or are sending their teachers into classrooms that are not properly equipped (and the teachers are buying their own supplies in some of the states I've lived in more recently), then I feel it is probably worth considering cuts in administration and overhead. I suspect that there's a point at which such cuts would prove to be harmful to the bottom-line education that is received. And I know that without a well-functioning administrative structure, teachers would face other burdens that are currently someone else's job.
But...if a state or community is going to decide NOT to adequately fund schools, then I think it's probably a better choice to ensure that the money that is spent goes into the classroom and not into non-instructional overhead.
Such schools should, in my opinion, drastically cut back their spending on athletics. Not because phys ed. is less important (I don't want to argue that), but because if there are priorities to be set, it seems pretty darn clear that most communities would rather DIE than give up their stupid high school football team, whereas they don't usually give a damn about academically related issues. (as a community, not individually -- there are lots of individuals who care about academics, their voices just seems to be drowned out by the football fans).
So...take it to the community and see if they don't finally GET IT, when you threaten to make coaching entirely a volunteer project. When the equipment for it comes from donations only. If those cuts are made and you still can't afford the academic things...then it's time to bail out altogether and let the state take over the schools.
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