[ March 18, 2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
You just going to post it with no comment Jay? If you don't feel it deserves a comment, why do you think we should comment? Hmmmmm???
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
A 8 year old who headbutts his teacher and in all other ways creates a situation that is physically dangerous for the other children should be removed. As public schools are not allowed to redirect children physically, I'm not sure what other method they might have used to handle the situation.
I don't see anything wrong with what they did, and I surely wouldn't call it a "tantrum". Tantrums are what toddlers have. A 4' tall 8 year old is not a toddler.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I wanted to throw it in and see first everyone thought. Now that jeniwren has brought up the spanking issue point I can agree with her. Much safer for me! Plus I can ask questions about that too! So… do you think if they were allowed to spank in schools the kid would be more behaved?
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
How about if parents just disciplined their children a bit better at home?
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Don't you think arresting the kid was a bit excessive? I have an 8yr old sister and the thought of her being taken away in handcuffs sends shivers up my spine. I think if they needed to remove the child from the environment they should have called the parents and had them come take the child. If the parents refused then maybe the police would be the only choice.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Depends on the kid and the situation, Penguin. I have seen an out of control kid of this age who truly was a danger to the teachers. Some boys are very strong, especially when they are angry.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
*shrugs* The days of quiet, in-house handling are over.
Schools will err on the side of caution and lawsuits and escalate anything up the established procedure chain.
-Trevor
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
And Jay - I only said that because when you throw out a link to a possibly-volatile article, without quoting any direct part of it you think makes your point, or voicing any point of any kind of your own, it makes it appear you are "baiting" us.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Now that jeniwren has brought up the spanking issue point I can agree with her"
Jeniwren said nothing about spanking, unless she edited it out.
Schools are allowed to restrain students, but if the restraint goes for more than a certain length, or if there is no one who is trained in applied nonviolence, or if the danger to staff and other students is deemed to be high, police would be called.
Some of the most difficult children to "control" are younger children, especially emotionally disturbed children.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Trying to restrain a child also raises the issue of liability of any injury to the child and for that matter, to the teachers and/or staff attempting to restrain them.
You think police get hammered for improper restraint techniques?
Imagine what would happen to a teacher who accidentally injured a student while trying to restrain or subdue. The teacher, the school board and anyone else within arm's reach would be looking down the barrel of a very nasty lawsuit.
-Trevor
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
That would be great if parents would do that. I have a teacher friend who tells about some of her conversations with parents. For example she’s had to call multiple parents about cheating and the parents don’t believe her. Think that she is lying and don’t believe her even when she has proof. If some kid is turning over desks and you can’t touch him what are you supposed to do? Talk gently? Ask nicely? In this environment of not being able to do anything I think they had no choice. And it is a shame. The kid should have been in detention after about an hour straight of paddling (ok, not literally, but you know what I mean).
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Well, yes FG, you’re right. But I don’t want to bias anyone by putting my opinion in first.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"If some kid is turning over desks and you can’t touch him what are you supposed to do?"
Interstingly, we are not allowed to touvh a child who is throwing desks or destroying property. We remove the other children and call the principal, who would usually call the police.
If a child attacks another child, a few of us are trained to intervene. As Trevor said, it can be big trouble. However, the natural tendency of teachers is to protect children.
It is a very tough situation all the way around. I am a firm believer in inclusion, except for students with severe emotional issues. I think they need to be in a separate place. There are fewer and fewer places for these kids to go.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I had a teacher in high school, she must have been about 5'1". Two football players were fighting, and she couldn't break them up. She took off one of her shoes and said, "Whichever one wins gets this." They both stopped fighting and started laughing. Then she sent one to the office and told him to have them send a messenger back when he got there.
As impressive a bit of people management I ever saw.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Liz is right. I didn't say anything about spanking, and I don't advocate its use to parents or schools. (Which is not to say I think it's child abuse. I just think it's typically a very poor method of discipline. And that it's one that has been overused despite it's generally poor results.) I am absolutely against its use in schools. Ever. For any reason.
This child was being disciplined by losing the privilege of recess. He lost all control and got physically violent. At 4' tall, he was probably pretty dangerous, even to adults. When kids lose control, they don't hold back. Think feral.
I just hope that the consequence of his actions are sufficient to get the parents attention to see that they may very well need some outside assistance in helping their son. He obviously has some problems.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I have a friend (male) who is a teacher at a middle school, and a boy there went ballistic and was hitting another student, and this teacher (who is a black belt in martial arts I might add) stepped in just enough to restrain the out-of-control student and get him off the injured student.
Now the attacking student's parents are trying to sue this teacher for allegedly "trying to choke" the boy. Believe me - if he had wanted to choke him - he would have! He was not harming him in any way. Luckily, it appears the teacher has enough witnesses to back him up that it will end up being dismissed.
Fighting students are much less dangerous, in general, than an out of control 8 year old would be. Honestly. (unless weapons are involved, of course!)
And Jay, many states use corporal punishment in school.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
If I'd acted like that in Elementary school, My mother would have shipped me off to one of those "voluntary youth discipline" facilities... of course only after she beat the crap out of my rear end... IMO... Alot of parents are so concerned with the emotional effect of disclpline that they often times will let their kids get away with just about anything... Thats the real problem...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
JTStryker, it really isn't always problem. Often, students whom you feel might "need" a spanking, are very often being abused at home.
Edit: Witnesses are key! I would never get involved in any sort of physical restraint without a witness there.
I am on a team at school who is trained in applied nonviolence(silly, silly name, I know). I have been involved in many restraints, but never in this school. Of all the times I have had to restrain a child, the most difficult were the younger ones. "Feral" sums it up. Add insane to that mix, and badabing! No fun at all. Testosterone-laden teenagers were usually easier to handle, because their rage was focused, and once the focus was broken, they were OK.
[ March 04, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: I am a firm believer in inclusion, except for students with severe emotional issues. I think they need to be in a separate place. There are fewer and fewer places for these kids to go.
Unfortunately, I've been in one of these places (just for 12th grade). Kids with severe emotional/behavioral disorders were lumped in with kids who were there as an alternative to juvey and kids who were gay and their parents didn't want to deal with it and kids in long-term foster care and others. Because of the chair-throwers, almost no learning got done in some classes-- not that most teachers treated us as if we were capable of learning, anyway. And the ones that did got harassed and picked on by half of the class because they were used to getting a free ride and didn't want to be expected to do any work.
Luckily, I was largely allowed to do independent study and to spend two periods-- which amounted to a good chunk of a day, because we were on a "block" schedule-- helping out in one of the elementary school classrooms.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: Believe me - if he had wanted to choke him - he would have! He was not harming him in any way.
I've always wondered how effective that would be as a defense with a jury. On th eone hand, they might think of him as violent, or think he knew how to do stuff without leaving marks. On the other hand, it's clear he could have done something worse.
Interesting trial ad problem.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
sorry, I guess i wasn't clear, I'm not saying that they should be "spanked" I'm say that they aren't properly being disciplined.
But on a side note, Several of my friends fall into the category that I was describing. They can get away with anything, so they will go ahead and do anything.... If I were some of my friends parents, I'd be shipping them off to a military school in a heart beat... but since I'm not, I guess I'll just have to settle for using my "If you had my Mom for a mom..." lines...
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Many schools in my town (including elementary schools) have their own police officer on staff. Unfortunately, even primary students have been known to bring guns to school, sexually harass their classmates, deal drugs, or viciously attack other students and teachers. Of course, most of these kids need the officer for more than just their own behaviors - they need someone to check up on their home backgrounds, as well. In some cases, violent parents will try to bully the school into overlooking their child's behavior.
I myself have probably risked lawsuits by holding a child back from attacking another, or by peeling one fighter away from the fight. I've tried to maintain as little physical contact as possible, but I am not going to tolerate kids fighting while their classmates gather and chant "fight, fight, fight". Fortunately, such incidents have been few and far between. I also immediately wrote up what happened and turned the issue over to administration.
Kids are indeed feral when they fight, and they often don't know how to get themselves back under control. Many "street" kids live by a code of vengeance and honor that differs greatly from the type of culture and behavior schools try to transmit.
Good teachers learn to recognize the danger signs, and head situations off before they occur. I believe I have learned how to do this, but it took counseling with my administrators after having fights break out on my watch. But it's not easy.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Stryker, I think a lot of parents fail to discipline their children because they are lazy/tired/overworked. It's a lot easier to just put up with the misbehavior than to deal with it constructively. Plus, it takes some humility to admit your kids are wrong -- we often have our own identities wrapped up in our kids, so when they're wrong, we're wrong. So when a parent is protecting their errant child, it's really themselves they're protecting. IMO, anyway.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Is it just me -- or do we see a huge increase in rage in young kids these days?
I mean, when I was an aide in the school system just a few years back, there seem to be a lot of "really angry" kids -- uncontrollable rage...
Yet I don't remember any kids like that from my own childhood and school days. Where is all this rage coming from?
FG
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ketchupqueen, what I am saying is that the chair-throwers and wrist-cutters and sex-offenders need psychological intervention away from the public school setting, in a small group situation.
Alternative education classes in public schools should not have students who are out of voice control. They should be for students who are struggling for one reason or another. Funding is being cut from these separate prgorams, which cost the school systems a bundle, so they are trying to handle them "in-house." Classes like you described are the result.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I have to agree with you on that one Jeni.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Interesting question Farm - one that may have answers in the increasing phenomenon of road rage and similar outbreaks.
Is this limited strictly to kids, or are we seeing a broader social trend?
-Trevor
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
My son-in-law drives a school bus for elementary school kids. He was accused of hitting one of the students on his bus last week. Apparently this child (a first grader) had broken his glasses and told his mother my SIL did it when he gave him a bus ticket for bullying another student. The mother got all upset and demanded a conference. There are video cameras on the bus, and the bus supervisor had evidence of the child's bullying and the lack of any abuse on the driver's part. My SIL was actually disappointed that the child confessed to lying and the conference was cancelled. The bus supervisor suspended the child's bus privileges for the rest of the year.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Battles not won when they were toddlers, IMO, FG.
If a 2,3,4 year old kid doesn't learn that tantrums are not the way to control the world, they surely aren't going to stop. It's easier to take the humiliation of discovering you're not Ruler of All Things when you're little.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I think there is such a huge difference even in the kids who parents lovingly spank them and the parents who use time out. You can see the discipline and respect while the others are just down right brats. Yes, beating is wrong. But if there isn’t any discipline…. I think the results speak for themselves.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Elizabeth, that's what was supposed to be happening. There are plenty of places designed for that. Unfortunately, they don't always work like they're supposed to. For instance, my brother went in with one behavioral problem, and now has about 10.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I have never spanked my children, Jay, and you would have a hard time finding sweeter, more polite ones.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Discipline is crucial if a child is to feel cared for and safe. Kids aren't stupid - they know that adults are supposed to set limits. When their own parents don't, however, they learn that it doesn't matter what they do. No one cares enough to sit them down and make them civilized. By the time these wild beastlings get to school, they have internalized that they can do whatever they want in order to meet their immediate needs. No one makes them learn patience, considering the needs of others in the family/group, or make up for mistakes.
And even "nice" "good" people allow their toddlers to become little hellions. They don't want to raise their hands or voices to their kids because then the kid cries and throws a tantrum. Guess what? If a child learns that tantrums DON'T WORK, then the tantrums cease.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
" For instance, my brother went in with one behavioral problem, and now has about 10."
Ha ha! (sorry,the way you wrote that tickled my funny bone.)
I agree. I always questioned the sense of group homes for sex offenders, for instance.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Feh - don't even get me started on that one.
-Trevor
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Elizabeth, I think you’d be the exception. The norm really seems to be just the opposite. How do you discipline them? And not that I’m accusing you of this in the least, but I have heard parents of total brats say the same things about their little angels. Please don’t get mad at that. I know it sounds bad. I do know there are exceptions. I’m just trying to point out the little angle myth.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
*bites Elizabeths child* MMMMM..... good and sweet... She isn't lying.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, yes. *sighs* There were several sex offenders where I was who used to-- guess what?-- sneak off and have sex with the girls.
One night some boys went on a rampage and decided to go see the girls. They locked their staff in a storage closet, and headed over to the girls' dorm. They broke windows and climbed into girls' rooms. They tried to rape two girls; they screamed, and two girls came running from across the hall and pulled the boys off. They knocked one out with a dictionary and sat on the other until staff ran in to help them. Some of the boys came for my roommate. (She was younger than me and I was very protective of her.) Luckily she was a sound sleeper. They banged on the window, and I went to it, saw that they were trying to pry off the grate and were yelling for her, and opened it a crack to talk to them. I told them in a furious whisper that if they woke her or continued trying to get in, I would make them sorry they were ever born. I guess something in my voice or look worked, because one said, "Come on, it's not worth it," and they moved on. I went to the door, heard the commotion in the halls, and secured our door with a chair under the knob-- not enough to stop anyone really determined, but enough to deter lazy teenagers. The next morning, when I heard the whole story (there's more than what I'm posting), I was glad I had, and glad that Jordan didn't wake up. She would have been scared to death if she had.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
It can be done. You just have to stick to your guns and be firm. My daughter used to throw awful tantrums. We would take her to her room, tell her that she could throw her tantrum there, and let us know when she was done. We'd usually go check with her and "debrief" afterwards. You have to communicate in ways appropriate for your childs' understanding.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Ketchupqueeen, that sounds like a frightening job.
I reckon different things work with different kids... but, for some reason spanking bothers me. It doesn't seem nessasary in a lot of cases....
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
Jay, time outs can be just as (if not more) effective as spankings. I know that my kids aren't angels, but I am pretty sure my daughter would rather have a spanking then a time out most of the time.
Why do you think that physical punishment is more effective (and do you have any evidence)?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: Ketchupqueeen, that sounds like a frightening job.
Job? I suppose it was. I, however, lived and went to school there.
Posted by Mr.Gumby (Member # 6303) on :
I expected the article to be published my the Onion
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
What Jennie said, and...
One of the most important things is never to say you are going to do something that you don't do. If you tell them that they will have a time-out if they throw the peas, and do not give them a time-out, they will learn that they might be able to get away woth throwing peas.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Jenny, I'm with you. My daughter is nearly 3. She has spectacular tantrums. And she can have them somewhere else, usually the bedroom.
At her preschool, when the kids have fits, they are given a space to totally melt down. Then when they're ready to rejoin the living, they're welcomed back happily. It kind of takes all the air out of the fun of tantrumming when you miss story time, or centers time, or music time. By the time the kids are school age, it's a matter of pride that they don't melt down in public anymore. "Only babies do that."
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Mostly from watching people at church and out in public. Anymore though it seems that kids know they can’t be spanked in public so they’re total brats. And it’s getting so bad anymore because sooo many people don’t discipline at all. It’s always funny to se some kid acting up, parent tells them to stop, kid acts up more, parent ignores, kid breaks something, parents yells for half a second and kid runs off to get into trouble somewhere else. Once, back in college while working in the ER, this kid was running up and down the hall. One time he ran past me and I grabbed him by the arm and told him in a firm voice you can not run in here. Mom promptly came and yelled at me for disciplining her kid. I promptly told her as long as the kid isn’t running in the hall I won’t have to. The mom of course wanted to try and get me in trouble, but the staff told her to get back in her room. Ha! Unreal. I guess to be really honest about the subject it’s not spanking or non spanking that is the problem (even thought I think spanking is far more effective), it’s the basic non existence of any type of discipline.
[ March 04, 2005, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
"Alleged tantrum" is a weird phrase. "Now, on the day of your alleged tantrum... Your Honor! He's pouting, you all saw it! Permission to treat the child as hostile."
quote: And Jay, many states use corporal punishment in school.
Elizabeth. Still? I thought it was pretty much outlawed, or if technically legal avoided due to liability issues. Morbo
[ March 04, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Mormo ]
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I'm with Jay on the lack of discipline thing...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I agree too, but you just can't win. If you don't discipline kids, they turn into hellions, but, how can it be done? It's either be too strict, like a fascist regeme and end up with a rebellious angry kid anyway, or end up with something like Running With Scissors Where the kids are allowed to do ANYTHING and the parents act like best friends that are like, "Sure you can do drugs, date 40 year old men and wear skimpy outfits." Either way is alarming and disturbing.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I want to see the application when the kid applies for a job. You know the question, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony, if so, please explain the circumstances..."
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Arrested and convicted of a felony are two different things.
And most states allow an offender to seal his or her juvenile record, provided there are no repeat offenses.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I know, it was just a funny mental image.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Morbo: I did not paste the entire list, but you can find it here:
quote: Where the states stand on corporal punishment: Alabama--Legal Alaska--Illegal Arizona--Legal Arkansas--Legal California--Illegal Colorado--Legal Connecticut--Illegal Delaware--Illegal
Posted by Mormo (Member # 5799) on :
Thanks for the link, Elizabeth! Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
You are welcome. I am not sure if the thread is still around, but last year Boon had quite a bit of difficulty with her son in school.
Isn't it ironic that teachers can be freaked out about separating kids in a fight, but it is OK to spank them?
"Kansas--Legal"
Wouldn't Farmgirl's friend, who was using a nonviolent restraint, be covered under this?(if he works in Kansas as well)
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I blame Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Sure Liz - in one situation, you're getting in the middle of a conflict that is out of control.
In the other, you're instigating the conflict and are, theoretically, in complete control of the situation.
Two vastly different scenarios.
-Trevor
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I can't believe people let their very young kids play that game.
Posted by Ginol_Enam (Member # 7070) on :
I know my school district (Moore, OK) does legally allow corporal punishment. I've never seen it happen, and every teacher I've heard talk about it has said that they would never ever use it. But its there if needed...
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hmm. I'm not sure what else the school could have done at that point - sounds like he was extremely violent. I hope his parents seek some form of help for him.
I'm with Jenny and the others on tantrums. My kids threw them, every kids throws them; it's a normal part of child development. However, when they did throw them they were sent (or carried at times) to their rooms and told not to come out till they were calm. We're always tried to teach them that expressing anger or outrage is ok, but that it has to be expressed appropriately.
I don't think there has to be a choice between spanking and no discipline whatsoever. There are gentle methods that are just as effective for giving a child tools to help them get along in the world. It takes more work, but it's worth it to both child and parent.
space opera
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I have called the cops on kids before, when I worked as a youth worker in a group home for kids ages 6-12. Liz was right--kids can be DANGEROUS because they have little knowledge of limits, danger, mortality, etc. Their concept of time is very different from an adult's. They are, as Liz said, FERAL. It's scary and dangerous, both for the child and others involved (adults, other kids, etc). While I don't agree with arresting a kid, I do agree with taking control of the situation for the safety of all involved. What this kid did...I've seen it firsthand countless times. It's what I used to work with for behavioral management. The kid needs help, and I sure hope he gets it.
I also think that discipline does NOT equal corporal punishment.
*sigh*
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Wouldn't Farmgirl's friend, who was using a nonviolent restraint, be covered under this?(if he works in Kansas as well)
Elizabeth -- it might well be still technically legal in my state, but I have not heard of any school here in this area that still allows it. Most of them have done away with it in their own school policy.
Perhaps Screechowl knows of schools around that still use corporal punishment - probably more of the westerly, rural schools would be my guess, but I sure don't know of any.
Farmgirl
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jeniwren said:
quote: I surely wouldn't call it a "tantrum". Tantrums are what toddlers have. A 4' tall 8 year old is not a toddler.
AMEN!
You know, my oldest is now in school, and he has had some mild behavioral problems. And I guess I have gotten a little annoyed when his teacher has suggested things I could do to help settle these issues and how he has improved since the beginning of the year because of the efforts *she* has taken....
You know, some kids really are more difficult than others, behaviorally speaking. Sometimes there is an actual pathology involved. You can't always chalk it up to bad parenting. But it is difficult not to pass judgement on the parents when you see an out-of-control child. I am trying to be more sensitive to this. :/
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Beverly, that is a really good point. I have mostly worked with behaviorally challenged students, and I notice a trend from other teachers and the principal to immediately assume that bad parenting is involved.
As for a teacher giving you tips, that would be annoying. However, she or he might have some good strategies that work in the classroom. I would hope they would want to share those with you, without the condescending crapola. What works at home might not work in school, and vice versa.
However, there are manty clueless parents. One of my favorite lines, recently, was this one:
Parent of failing 5th grader who falls asleep in class:
"But she does her homework! We are really good about it. At 9:00, the television goes off, and they all buckle down and do their work."
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: You know, some kids really are more difficult than others, behaviorally speaking. Sometimes there is an actual pathology involved. You can't always chalk it up to bad parenting. But it is difficult not to pass judgement on the parents when you see an out-of-control child.
Thank you.
Spanking does not equal discipline. On the other hand, spanking does not equal child abuse, and spanking is not totally ineffective. Neither is it always inappropriate. We prefer not to spank, and we rarely do so. But sometimes it is the only thing my kids will respond to. I believe other people when they tell me that they have wonderful angels without ever having had to spank them. But it is not evidence to me that spanking is ineffectual. Rather, it is evidence that not all kids respond to the same stimulus.
Many times kids who act up do so because of a lack of parenting, but this is not always true. We don't get too much of this anymore, because the girls' behavioral issues have really calmed down, but for a while last year we used to get a lot of comments and hints that our daughters got into trouble because we had raised them poorly, from people who didn't know their background or what the heck they were talking about. One woman even told Cor this fall that "sometimes you just need to tell her 'no'"! *speechless*
It's the whole walk a mile in another person's shoes thing. If you are not a parent, you really have only theoretical knowledge. But even if youare one, you really only know what works or doesn't with your own children. It's naïve to believe that the same strategies work for all.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
That kid needs a good smack to the head. Sick that teachers/principles are so handicapped in enforcing anything that they had to call the police. *sigh*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I dunno. Police are at least trained in how to do things right, one would hope. I wouldn't want my kid arrested, but I also wouldn't want my kid smacked around by a teacher.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
If my kid was behaving that way I would want them to spank them/restrain them.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Telperion, being out of control is often as scary, or scarier, as witnessing someone who is out of control.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: As for a teacher giving you tips, that would be annoying. However, she or he might have some good strategies that work in the classroom. I would hope they would want to share those with you, without the condescending crapola. What works at home might not work in school, and vice versa.
Yeah, the problem was the advice was inane. My thought was, "What sort of a mother do you think I am that I don't already do this?" If the advice were something unique that had never occured to me, I would have been thankful for it. Instead, it came out feeling like an insult.
Edit: Oh, let me tell you what the advice was. Our son gets intensely upset sometimes, and he gets very loud. He seems to feel like the world is coming to an end and he needs help RIGHT NOW! Her advice to me was not to always bail him out but to calmly talk him through these things and let him figure out what to do.
When our son gets upset, I always keep my cool. I never get antsy or try to "bail him out" without letting him work through it. We expect a lot from him. Sometimes, though, he gets in such a state that the only thing that will snap him out of it is something shocking. At those times, I may shout to get his attention, take him by the shoulders or what have you. In extreme cases (which thankfully haven't happened in a long time) I find the only thing that will actually work is to swat him to get him to stop for just a moment and listen. But that is always a last resort after everything else doesn't work.
[ March 05, 2005, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Police training or lack thereof is another thread's worth of derailing.
But Telp - my cousin (in law) observed the other day - "It's wild, having kids. Everything I ever thought I'd say or do either went out the window or did a complete 180."
Of course, he ended that thought with, "wait until you have kids." But fortunately I wasn't trying to give him advice on parenting at the time.
-Trevor
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
It is wild, Trevor. It is like removing your heart and watching it walk all around the world.
[ March 06, 2005, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Icarus, your post made me think of the reaction I have had while walking my dog.
And... I know. Not the same thing as a child!
Basically our pup is about a year old, a German Shephard / Kelpie mix. She's a decent size, fiercely intelligent, very strong, stubborn as all get out, mischevious, playful, loving and wont to misbehave at the worst possible moment. I am 5' 2" and kinda slight. The thing is, I can handle my dog. I've been to training classes. The collar we use is RSPCA approved - as are the training methods. She is, for the most part, obedient, but she is still a puppy.
I have had so many people stop me at the park while I am walking her to inform me what I am doing wrong with her. Even when their advice goes against everything that the RSPCA advise. Even though half of them have never owned a dog. Or own a maltese.
I guess the thing is that people have an amazing capacity to judge and to interfere with situations where they quite frankly don't have a clue.
That's not to say if I were dragging my dog around by a chain (or, to bring it back to kids, obviously physically abusing my child) that people shouldn't interfere.
But it often seems people are happy to intervene simply because the situation is not how they would handle it - regardless of whether they have actually *had* to handle a similar situation or not.
[ March 06, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote: It is like removing your heart and watching it walk all around the world.
One of the coolest things said, ever.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I worked at a "last chance" after-school program at the Y in Richmond. About 1/2 of our 4th-8th graders had been kicked out of every other after-school program in town, including other Ys. Unbelievably, the only method of discipline the Y advocates is redirection (never mind that that's not a method of discipline at all and cannot possibly work with 90 kids and 6 adults). They don't even let their staff use time-outs. We could do referrals or suspensions, but we had a semester quota of 2 (that's 2 total, not 2 per child).
I cannot tell you how much this crippled us. Let me give y'all and example. One of our 5th graders with emotional problems was having a bad day. He lost his temper and grabbed a stool and went after another kid with it. I am 5'4'' and he was already my height at 11. Instead of redirecting him, I ran after him, grabbed the stool and stared him down. He was angry and frustrated and kept pulling on the stool. I said, in a quiet, low voice, "Dude [I used his name, but don't feel comfortable using it now], I'm going to count to three. When I say three, you are going to let go of the stool and sit down." I counted and he let go and sat down. This was not the first incident with this kid. I know just how that teacher probably felt - she wanted to protect the other children and the kid going off and probably had very little training on how to do so.
BTW, I didn't think the parents of my problem kids were bad (unless they gave me a reason, like having a screaming match in the parking lot in front of their child and his friends) - I just assumed that they were inexperienced. I am lucky that I've worked with children of all ages and many different emotional and behavioral issues - when I finally have children, I'll be able to apply that knowledge.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
You know, Mrs. M., I cannot even tell you how many times I have used "1,2,3..."
It is magic! (In fact, there is a behavior mod. program called 1,2,3 Magic)
It is the weirdest thing. And I have used it on really big, aggressive kids.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Elizabeth, I think it's related to fear of math. Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
I don't know about kids, but time-outs actually work very well on our dogs. The way it works is that the dog has to go somewhere (like under the table) where she can't interact with anyone, and has to stay there for 2-30 minutes, depending on the seriousness of the infraction. If the dog comes out before we call her, we glare at her, bare our teeth, and order her to get back under the table, which she does.
Both our dogs HATE this so much that we don't have to do it very often. The words "under the table" are enough to inspire a cessation of bad behavior.
We have NEVER hit our dogs.
[ March 06, 2005, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
All the dog training I have been to emphasises that hitting dogs is a big no-no.
We also do time-outs, but in the kennel.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I think "1,2,3" works because it is assertive. You're basically communicating that the current direction is not acceptable, but you are also giving the child a new direction.. AND an opportunity to save face. And you are not acting submissive.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I think you're right, Jenny. I also count a lot in the classroom, when things are getting silly or out of control. I just say "One.." and they usually buck right up. It cracks me up, actually, and sometimes I have busted out laughing.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
The difference I’ve noticed in “respectful” kids is not related to what form of discipline the parents use, but whether they use it consistently. Has anyone else heard a mom or dad go through this routine: “You’d better stop that or you’re going to get a time out. <behavior continues> Do you want a time out? I mean it – you’re going to get a time out. <behavior continues> If you do that once more you’re going to get a time out. <behavior continues> Do you want a time out?” <repeat indefinitely>.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yep. As soon as they understand you, I think kids are old enough to learn that actions have consequences. For instance, my daughter loves to grab my glasses off my face. She has done it so often that they are bent out of shape, and now fall off easily of their own accord. Anyway, the other night she finished nursing and started trying to grab my glasses. I repeatedly took her hand away (and grabbed my glasses back, if she had been quick), and told her not to do that. However, she began to giggle as she did it, obviously thinking that it is a fun game. So I simply told her that it is not okay to grab glasses, and if she did it one more time, she was going in the playpen. (It's not her favorite place, but she has toys to play with, and it's not going to kill her to stay in a few minutes.) She did it again, and promptly went in the playpen. She wasn't thrilled about that, and so after a few minutes when she stood up and held up her arms to be removed, I reminded her that she was in the playpen because she had grabbed my glasses, and asked, "Are you going to grab my glasses again?" She solemnly shook her head no, and you know what? She didn't do it again that night.
I intend to keep this up for as long as it takes.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
"She didn't do it again that night."
Made me smile.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I don't know exactly what the RSPCA guidlines are. However, there are some people that train dogs that try to do it by no negative reinforcement whatsoever. (not even telling the dog no in a stern tone of voice) With some breeds this works, because they are so sensitive to their humans. With other breeds it doesn't.
I'm personally not against choke chains and prong collars. Prong collars even though they look far worse than choke chains are actually far more humane. The two work on separate principles. Prong collars don't actually "pinch" skin, even though they are mistakenly called pinch collars. They work basically by using more sensitive pressure points in the dogs neck to achieve control. This is far kinder IMO than a choke chain which cuts off a dogs air supply, when used incorrectly.
Some dogs can be trained on a flat buckle collar without any difficulty. However if you get a high energy breed or a large breed puppy that can knock over small children with its tail. It is better for public safety to use a stronger method of correction in order to keep the humans around you safe. Mastiffs, pit bulls and bull terriers, have very little feeling in their necks. They've been bred that way. So you might have to use much stronger corrections on those breeds than your sensitive border collies.
AJ
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Dana, you are right. No matter what the form of discipline, if the initial consequence is not followed through, it doesn't matter. Be prepared to follow through on whatever it is you say. Period.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
We used to use "choke chains" on our beasties, but we've since discovered a thing that works even better for them. It's called a "promise collar" and it works like a horse halter. It has two looped straps, one behind the ears and one over the muzzle. The leash is fastened just below the dog's chin, so you're controlling the direction in which the head moves. Where the head goes, the rest of the dog follows. I have found that our dogs, both notorious pullers, can't pull at all when wearing these collars.
The only problem is that the older dog, originally trained to walk near her owner without a leash, is not crazy about restraints in general and this collar in particular. So, she descends into a deeply insulted pout whenever we put it on. (This dog is the best pouter I have ever seen, and I honestly believe she does it partly to make us feel guilty.) The younger dog doesn't much care, since this was the collar I used for her obedience class, so she associates it with positive things like treats, car rides, and walks.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Scott, were you laughing because it wasn't permanent? She's only 11 months old, temptation is hard. But she did put her hand down when I told her not to grab the doctor's glasses today (she was reaching for them). She's learning. So there. Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Promise collars don't work on children, though.
Their muzzles aren't long enough.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
I have 5 can I get a 4. Anyone, 4?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Read the article.
Seems the little rugrat was quite the hellion, if you accept the official version of the incident.
-Trevor
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Calling the police on a 5-year old? And then the police arresting her? Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It doesn't matter that she was a "hellion", she doesn't need to be arrested. How is she ever going to trust police officers?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Without knowing the complete incident, schools have adopted an almost absurd level of "zero tolerance."
However, the article notes the student "attacked" two teachers and continued to resist officers, up to and including kicking.
-Trevor
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(one more comment on those head lead collars.) While they do work amazingly well, it is possible for a dog to get whiplash from them if they are used improperly. And too often they are used in place of actual training to get the dog to behave. So I'm not opposed to them, but I'm wary, if that makes any sense.
... as for the kid... wow... I would have had to have been there to see the tantrum in order to make a judgement call one way or the other.
AJ
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
The officers, I imagine, didn't have much of a choice.
-Trevor
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Hmm. . . .
There but for the grace of God, huh.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Guess Time out didn't work here
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
The problem with this is that when I child is kicking and screaming and such, the best way is to pick them up and put them somewhere and totally ignore their tantrum.
This is difficult at school, but it's not impossible. I've handled sulkies and cryies in a tiny environment with just me and another teenager.
They want attention. Calling the police is attention. It's also ridiculous. The child should have been hoisted out the class room by the teacher or helper, taken away from anyone else- the bathroom, the staffroom, somewhere fairly sterile, told people will wait until she calms and ignored. After she collapses in a weeping heap, and about a thousand "I HATE YOU"s then a quiet conversation, a hug, a make up, a let's try and be better, neh?
The worst children I've had are the ones who want to be comforted the most.
This child is five. A baby. If she's acting that way, she needs to be taught that it's neither acceptable NOR is it going to cause a reaction NOR is it going to make people hate her.
Five year olds just want to be liked, but they also needed to be guided. Calling the police for a five-year-old should not really be an option. Call the parents, definately. Have the gym teacher watch (or hold) her, sure (a commanding but gentle prescence, usually gym teachers project this) but NOT the police. Not for a baby.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Uh, the quote from the mother said it all for me. She claimed they "set [her] baby up". OMG. Wanna know what her precious little daughter learned from mommy? That the world *does* revolve around her. That she is a victim to evil forces, having no responsibility for her own actions.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I noticed that, too, but that doesn't mean calling the police was appropriate.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
What kq said.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Teshi, not all schools have a full time gym teacher.
I'd like to hope my response would be to clear the room, shut off the lights (lowering visual stimulation), and close the door. Then send someone to call the parents to come pick the child up immediately. A significant suspension would follow, along with a mandatory meeting with the parents to discuss whether this may be a persistant behavioral problem worthy of testing for an IEP.
I can't see calling the police, but I sure don't fault them for it either. Schools really get the shaft...parents say they don't do enough, and when they try to do right by students, they say they do too much. They can't win.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I was using the gym teacher as the example. "An impressive looking unfamiliar person who the student is perhaps more wary of" is a better discription.
This is why Vice Principals are always the bad guys.
Edit: And I disagree about the significant suspension and the immediate discussion of whatever IEP is. I would have to know the child personally in order to be able to make decisions like that.
[ March 18, 2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
A 5 year old who loses control that badly over jelly beans this late in the school year has some issues. It may not warrant needing an IEP, but that's what testing is for.
IEP stands for Individualized Education Plan. It's a legally actionable document that outlines special needs identified for the child that the public school *must* follow, though they have discretion as to the level (number of hours) of special services recommended. Testing for an IEP comes up when a child exhibits a possible need unmet in the standard classroom. This can be a learning, physical, emotional and/or social disability/challenge.
As for suspension, you don't think there should be *any* consequences for the 5 year old??
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
If the parents are the problem, suspension is not the answer, especially at age five. This child needs to learn to function in a group situation, not alone at home with Mumsie who will just instill more dislike of participation and ideas of how "injust" school is.
Also, consequences should not be so severe as measures, in this case. This child is five. What is suspension going to make her think?
Also, when she returns, she would be a hero, or least the subject of talk.
quote: A 5 year old who loses control that badly over jelly beans this late in the school year has some issues.
I can't judge, I wasn't there. But perhaps the Jelly Beans were only the beginning.
Teacher: "I'm sorry, but I'm taking your Jelly Beans away!" Child: *Grabs at Jelly Beans* "Nooooo!" Teacher: "If you continue to behave this way you'll have to sit in the corner." Child: I HATE you! *attacks teacher*
This progression is EASY to imagine. Lots of children easily leap from passive silliness to rabid anger. How you treat them afterwards is often what lets them off the scale. Also, how inventive they are in doing things that are Not Allowed.
For instance: If writing on the walls is strictly forbidden either at home or at school, that's the way to wind someone up.
Something like the removal of Jelly Beans can easily escalate into a major standoff, with attack on the part of the child and extremely bad behavior.
Posted by Grisha (Member # 6871) on :
quote: However, the article notes the student "attacked" two teachers and continued to resist officers, up to and including kicking.
I actually don't see any mention of her resisting the police at all, other than her saying she didn't want to go to jail.
quote: Minutes later, the 40-pound girl was in the back of a police cruiser, under arrest for battery. Her hands were bound with plastic ties, her ankles in handcuffs.
and that level of restraints on a child that small just seems excessive.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
quote:Also, consequences should not be so severe as measures, in this case. This child is five. What is suspension going to make her think?
Also, when she returns, she would be a hero, or least the subject of talk.
Suspension is one of the only real consequences with teeth still available to schools. The child will know she made a bad choice and isn't allowed to go to school as a result.
As for her being a hero, that might be true of high school students, but the typical kindergartener wants to please adults and be near them, not pushed away or excluded.
Frankly, I'm astonished you'd think that she would be a hero to the other 5 year olds for getting suspended. It leads me to believe you have a very strange notion of what most 5 year olds are like.
The problem almost certainly is the parents if that quote is any indication, but the school cannot punish parents. They can only make the message clear that their child's behavior is unacceptable. This isn't about zero tolerance, this is about the safety of the other students. If I was parent to one of the other students, I would have serious concerns about that little girl ever coming back to class without some testing to see if it is the right place for her.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I agree entirely with jeniwren. Especially what she said about the mother.
My youngest is 5, and has occasionally behaved in a way that meant I got a call. But wow, this incident is so far beyond the behavior I'd expect to hear about from a five year old!
Let me tell you, at five, the kids who get in trouble are NOT heroes.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hm. I think I'm expressing myself very badly.
I don't agree with suspension for one so young. I don't think it does any good. If there's nothing else that can be done effectively at school, then perhaps a day suspension. The point goes across. but an extended suspension? Not in my opinion.
(I used the word "hero" far too losely. I mean if a fuss is made, the children will know through the whole school grades kindergarten through six. Anti-hero, subject to looks or comments, hero, one way or another, in my opinion a fuss is going to cause issues.)
I'm basing my knowledge of five-year-olds on myself and my peers, my sisters, babysitting and running summer camps for that age group. I could be widely miscalculating; I'm definately not a mother!
I think overall we generally agree in most principles, except for the suspension issue, but that's totally an opinion thing for me!
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
So basicly, any teacher can be an unmitigated brat cuz s/he's the Authority. Cuz that's the appearance to the kid: the teacher decided to steal her candy. I would expect a teacher to have a bit more brains, a bit more self-control, and a bit more in social skills than a 5year old.
[ March 18, 2005, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
aspectre, is that directed at the article or someone in the thread?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
It's directed at the teacher involved in the JellyBeanAffair. And at the whole ZeroTolerance approach of every minor anthill having to be blown up into a MOUNTAIN. This is about teaching etiquette -- the good manners of obeying arbitrary rules -- not about stopping a MajorCrimeWave
[ March 18, 2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Grish,
quote: She first was restrained with steel, standard-issue handcuffs but slipped out of those, he said. She then was bound with plastic flexible cuffs but continued to struggle, kicking at officers as they walked her out of the school to a squad car, Proffitt said.
She was put in the back of the cruiser but continued kicking one officer in the arms and legs, so another set of handcuffs was used to restrain her legs, a police report says.
-Trevor
Posted by Grisha (Member # 6871) on :
ok, i seriously can't find that, maybe i am missing a link or something, but i suppose in that case it makes more sense.
I would have been able to hold a child that size, even a wild one, in a restraint, but perhaps the teachers were afraid to us hands-on methods due to legal issues.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
oh ok, that explains why i was not getting some of what was being said.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
"In my opinion a fuss is going to cause issues"
Maybe I'm a jerk, but if my child went to school with this child, I'd *want* there to be a fuss. Though I of course disagree with the fact that the poor kiddo was arrested, she attacked a teacher. That kind of behavior is not appropriate, and I'd be happy to see her suspended not only as a punishment but as an example to her impressionable classmates. Believe me, the kids will talk about it no matter what happens. My daughter comes home most days and can't wait to tell me if someone in her class got in trouble. Though she already knows that attacking anyone is not acceptable, I wouldn't want her to observe a classmate attacking the teacher and then have the classmate back at school the next day with no consequences. To be fair though, I don't think it makes much difference to her classmates whether she's suspended or not at this point since they already saw her taken away in a police car.
space opera
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Since I wasn't in the classroom, and it wasn't reported (as far as I could tell), I would assume that the jellybean "theft" by the teacher was a result of some very spelled-out rules. Participate without goofing off, and you get to keep them. Goof off, and they are taken away. Five year olds need rules, and breaking rules have (has?) consequences.
I just had to say that.
I have a seven-year-old who likes to break rules in the classroom, and I tell you what, I *want* there to be consequences (he has a very good teacher, and she is consistent with consequences, thank God). If he freaked out to that degree, I don't know if I would want him put in restraints, but again, I was not there. He *has* hit a child in the classroom (he has a particular problem with one child), and as jeniwren (I think?) put out there, he was taken into a darkened environment and counseled. He is better. He is especially better once I related to him that hitting people is Against The Law, but I hope he never has to find out the hard way, like this child.
Oof, what a mess.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: "She's never going back to that school," Akins said. "They set my baby up."
Yep, this one'll be at CREST before long. I think that's the real difference between kids with behavioral problems and SEDs. With the SEDs, the parents are the problem. They come in drunk swearing up and down the hallways wanting to know what the little s*** did now. My mom prefers the stoners since they're at least quiet.
When the parents are completely self absorbed and have no respect for their children, you get a pretty messed up kid. And they ususally end up in jail for it. Maybe the school or the officer saw this as an intervention to scare them into behaving. Unfortunetly, the parent has has to back the school up for that to work. SED parents are too busy going down to the dam with a case of beer getting in fights to bother speaking to their kids.
What was it Chris Rock said? "Maybe the kid would know something if you said more to him than 'Momma be back.'"
As for the spanking, personally, I'm not sure I'd call it a discipline technique. I usually think of it as an immediate deterrant. There's a dangerous behavior that needs to be stopped now. Quick swat. The danger can be removed while the kid cries. Now we worry about time out and such. I think spanking has its place, but it's never going to replace a bad behavior with a good one, which I guess is my definition of discipline.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
That is a pretty big five year-old! Wowsa.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
SEDs?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
What's that, Ic?
Serious Emotional Disorder?
New term for me.
This child might do very well with a 1:1 aide.
[ March 19, 2005, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Elizabeth, I'm asking because I'm not familiar with it.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Oh, duh. Sorry. Missed the reference.
Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
quote: That is a pretty big five year-old! Wowsa.
That's what i was thinking (looking at my 39 lb 3.5 ft 5 yr old son)
I think the girl certainly has pretty severe problems, and spanking is probably not the solution.
CHildren ARE all different, and some ARE more difficult than others.
Mine throws tantrums pretty easily, and does NOT get away with it. He is VERY sensitive and a bit of a control freak. It is who he is. However people who meet him think he's a cute little angel (he is!) and don't see a discipline problem.
Yes he over reacts too often, but on the flip side recently one of his friends slipped and fell while playing, and my little Snuggy sat next to him and pet him while crying because he was sad that his friend was hurt.
Someone who saw one of his temper tantrums might just assume I'm a lenient permissive parent. What would the same person say when they saw him crying for and comforting one of his hurt friends instead?
Sorry don't know if i have a point or not!
-Mimi
[ March 19, 2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: mimsies ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I totally get your point, mimsies. Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
SED = Severly Emotionally Disturbed. It's supposed to mean that they're crazy, but since there's a disability check involved, it ususally means their parents are white trash looking for easy money. Nothing's ever the kids fault, the school's always one mistake away from a lawsuit, and if the kids start to behave too much they get coached on being worse so the check doesn't go away.
Maybe this kid won't get that bad. Maybe she has some underlying medical condition or developmental problem. But as jeniwren said, probably time to call in the school shrink and do some testing. However, Florida being what it is, I'm a bit cynical anything useful will get done unless the mother pushes for it. We have a notoriously bad track record of helping kids in this state.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
AvidReader, I have worked with many emotionally disturbed children, but I have never heard of parents receiving a disability check for their children, or encourageing their children to act up. Do you have some links or other data to back this up?
Posted by Taelani (Member # 7562) on :
I decided to read through this just to see what others were thinking. When I first read the news article, I couldn't help but wonder what hadn't been released to the public that would have caused the police to be called. It struck me as being overkill on the part of the school involving the police, unless this child really posed a threat to her classmates or the teachers/staff of the school. I'm sure there's more to the story than we are being told, but at the same time, the quote from the 5 year old's mother about floored me. I'm trying to figure out how attempting to discepline a child who was acting out in class by taking away the source of the distraction (the jelly beans) was "set(ting) her baby up." Im my opinion it seems that this child is one who can do no wrong in her mothers eyes. I also wonder if there aren't some underlying issues with the child, ie: ADHD, or something to that effect.
I am a mother of 3 young boys, ages 10, 7 and 5, the 7 year old being a "special needs" child. He can be the sweetest kid in the world most times, but he can also be a total hellion. He has some learning/speech and fine motor skill delays as well as ADHD. When his medication for the ADHD wears off he can sometimes get aggressive, though it's mostly directed at his "little" brother. Fortunately? size is on my side when dealing with my 7 year old, since he's all of about 45 lbs and can easily be picked up and restrained on my lap if need be.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
This one is also from Yahoo, but it gives a little more detail about the alleged activities.
-Trevor
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: "She's never going back to that school," Akins said. "They set my baby up."
And people wonder what a "bad parent" sounds/acts like......
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Fortunately? size is on my side when dealing with my 7 year old, since he's all of about 45 lbs and can easily be picked up and restrained on my lap if need be.
T -- Be glad of that while you can! My special needs kid is now 6'4" and 250 pounds (17 years old) and he got bigger than I could handle (physically) by about fifth grade!
Luckily, by then we pretty much had things under control.
Farmgirl
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
SED kids' parents are usually white trash people responsible for their kids problems, who benefit from them by collecting a check . . .
hmm . . .
I bet a lot of people think that about my "EH" kid.
:-\
Posted by Taelani (Member # 7562) on :
Farmgirl, I'd be happy if this shrimp would grow a bit... his 5 year old brother already outweighs him, though thanks to the wonders of science and chemistry, things are better with him since starting Adderall a couple months ago, aside from the fact that it makes him eat even less now. <sigh> He's always been tiny, only weighed 5lbs 12oz when he was born, and has always stayed small...
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Ic, such a person would only need to spend about 5 minutes with you and Cor and the girls to realize how not true THAT is.
You and Cor are so obviously excellent parents that anyone incapable of observing it would have to be blind in every sense of the word. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Social Security has a definition of disability and they say there's a list of qualifying conditions, but I can't find it. However, SED is a severe, lasting condition that gets covered because of the numbers of meds they're prescribed and the poverty of the parents.
EH is a less severe diagnosis. There are no EHs at my mom's school. They're a whole differnt group. Here's a look at Martin County school district's site.
quote: A severe emotional disturbance is defined as an emotional handicap, the severity of which results in the need for a program for the full school week and extensive support services. SED programs provide for lower adult to pupil ratio than programs for emotionally handicapped and are designed to accommodate. Students determined eligible for the SED program are served in our county at Challenger School. These students receive a highly structured academic and affective curriculum, including but not limited to art, music, and recreation services that are specially designed for the SED student.
See the difference yet? I'm not talking about everyone. Just a small subsection. And no I don't have figures on the kids not getting too better so the families don't lose the checks. It's fraud and if it were documented it would be because someone caught them. All I have are many, many testamonials from SED teachers.
I'm not trying to insult everyone with kids who don't fit the mold. All I'm saying is that behaviors the five-year-old and her mother exhibit look like SED behaviors. And SED has a lot more to do with mom and dad than it does with the kid.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It's only a difference of degree. You have chosen to draw the line at SED--EH cases are (often, at least) legit, but SED is a fraud. It's not too much to suppose that other people will draw the line further up the "regularity" spectrum. And, for someone already out of step with that spectrum, it's not too much to suppose that probably a lot of those cases you generalize as being fraudulent are, in fact, not, and are people struggling to deal with an extremely difficult situation, in the face of negative societal judgments, as best they can. As far as being able to find a lot of teachers who can tell you anecdotally that these cases are fraudulent, well, I can find a lot of teachers who will tell you that minority kids are all hoodlums, and it says as much about the teachers as it does about the kids.
I don't know. I guess I can see both sides of the issue. It's kind of like how people say that welfare cases stay on welfare because of the incentives to do so. One can certainly make that case, but I bet someone on welfare would have a substantially different point of view on that.
There may well be a flaw in the system that incentivizes disfunction, in which case what you describe would be fairly rampant. But still, it makes me uncomfortable to judge whole groups of people without specific, individual evidence.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Icarus - I'm not a teacher like you, so I don't have the broad overview that you do - I only know a few special needs children.
But there is fraud in almost ANY organization. Yes, there is fraud in welfare, and I supposed there are cases of fraud in special education.
But there are also kids with true needs being helped. And that makes it worth it. Some people just like to sponge off the system. But others try to actually make the system work toward independence. You can't take away the system due to the people who commit fraud, because the only people hurt will be the ones who were truly being helped.
Farmgirl
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Farmgirl, you're responding to something I did not say; in fact, my post was making the same point as you are.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
And I was not speaking as a teacher, but as a parent. Specifically, as a parent of special needs kids.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Icky, I'm sorry if this has felt like some kind of personal attack, but I don't see it as a difference of degree at all. It's more like the difference between Christianity and Hinduism. Yeah, they're both religions, and you have to be religiously inclined to end up one or the other, but you have to pick one. You can't really slide up or down a scale and find yourself in another religion.
SEDs essentially give up control of their lives and behaviors. There's always an excuse for the tantrum. "I didn't take my meds today so I couldn't help it." "It's his fault he made me mad." The biggest challenge to getting a new student (besides seeing he doesn't get the crap beat out of him while the class adjusts its pecking order) is showing him that he still gets to choose how he reacts to life.
These kids are essentially so starved for attention from their parents that they're all giant toddlers. Sometimes jail can actually be beneficial since it gets them out of abusive and neglectful homes. You'd have to see these parents in action to understand what I mean. They don't WANT their kids. They don't like their kids. If deep down they feel some parental love for their kids, they're sure good at hiding the fact from everyone including their own children.
That is why I maintain that SED is distinctly different from EH. And I maintain it's a difference in the parents. I'm not sure what the graduation rate is with EHs, but with SEDs, MO-SPAN says it's 42%. Frankly, I'm surprised it's that high. I think I've seen one SED graduate in the past six or seven years.
quote: •Encounters with the Juvenile Justice System
—22% of students with SED are arrested at least once before they leave school as opposed to 9% of students with disabilities and 6% of all students.
—58% of youth with SED are arrested within five years of leaving school, as opposed to 30% of all students with disabilities.
—Of those students with SED who drop out of school, 73% are arrested within five years of leaving school.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My brother is an SED kid (okay, he's 18 now, but hasn't graduated yet, they're arguing over consrevatorship for him and he doesn't act like an adult), and it's not a question of apathy or anything on my parents' part.
However, they are definitely a big part of the problem. They've been fighting for his custody since he was 1, lying in court, my mom has some weird kind of manifestation of Munchausen's by proxy or something where she got him on adult meds he didn't need when he was 9, which he now does need, he was in all kinds of group homes that exacerbated the problem, both my parents enable him in different ways, and so on, and so forth...
However, I was in a similar situation, and didn't end up the same way. So it's not all them; a big part of it's him, his inborn personality, how he handles things, his other problems (dysgraphia, poor motor coordination, learning disabilities, genius-level IQ...)
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Icarus - I'm sorry I came across as disagreeing with you - I was kinda trying to agree and chime in with you.
I have been posting much too hastily lately with my busy work -- I'm going to have to spend more time in "preview post" mode because nothing I write lately is apparently coming across the way it feels in my head...
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Where the kids are allowed to do ANYTHING and the parents act like best friends that are like, "Sure you can do drugs, date 40 year old men and wear skimpy outfits."![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Though she already knows that attacking anyone is not acceptable, I wouldn't want her to observe a classmate attacking the teacher and then have the classmate back at school the next day with no consequences. To be fair though, I don't think it makes much difference to her classmates whether she's suspended or not at this point since they already saw her taken away in a police car. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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