Last night, around 11:30 p.m., our dogs started barking and we heard footsteps. My first thought was that it was our neighbor, looking for her cat, but we didn't hear anyone speak and Marilyn has no problem calling out to her cats day and night (and one of them is named something so close to Kira that it always freaks Andrew and me out). There was obviously more than one person and they were going sort of slowly. I got my gun and made sure that the door was locked and the chain was up. After a while, there was a sound like someone dropping something and the footsteps went away from the house. The dogs relaxed, Andrew went back to sleep, I put my gun away and went back to talking about last night's Desperate Housewives on TWoP.
This morning we discovered that there is a toilet on our lawn. A toilet. On our lawn. Attached was the following note:
quote:Greetings from the Hollins Chapter of Habitat for Humanity
As you can see from the "guest" on you lawn, you have been nominated by a neighbor to participate in our fundraiser. This guest is a representation of poverty housing because the guest is, for many people, an unaffordable luxury. H4H is committed to ending poverty housing and poverty living conditions, and we are asking for your help in "removing poverty housing" by having us remove the guest from your lawn. If you chose [sic] not participate, we fully understand, but if you do wish to participate, we have three options for removal.
When you have made your decision, please contact ___________ at ____. We look forward to hearing from you.
*Insurance so that the guest cannot be sent to your house again. +Sending consists of choosing who will next be visited by the guest. Hosts must reside in [list of faculty campus addresses]. Please make checks out to Hollins SGA with Habitat for Humanity on the memo line.
Andrew and I are not amused. Andrew is understandably annoyed that he was woken up and that his wife was alarmed. I am annoyed because THERE IS A TOILET ON OUR LAWN. This is not the way to fundraise, this is a way to alienate people who would have been glad to donate had they been asked. I'm angry on behalf of Habitat for Humanity, because I will be very reluctant to donate in the future. The note is especially grating - I don't need spoiled, rich girls to lecture me on poverty housing. It's wrong to try to force people to donate money. I'm annoyed on behalf of our neighbors, who are not as fortunate as Andrew and I are financially.
How do y'all think we should respond? We are certainly not giving them any money. We live on top of a hill, so it would be very easy for us to just roll the toilet down it. Andrew wants to call them and say that he'll make a $20 donation if they write a letter of apology and then donate the money to another charity (he would just say that he'll make a donation, not that he'll make a donation to Habitat for Humanity). I don't know what I want to do - I'm still too annoyed to think straight.
[ April 04, 2005, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Mrs.M ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
O_o
Is that sort of thing legal?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I would call and advise H for H that while you support their work, you are not amused, and that you question the legality of dumping toilets on people's lawns. Also advise them that if the toilet is not gone by the next morning, their next advice will be from your lawyer.
That ought to do it.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Hey free toilet! You could donate it to Habitat for Humanity or something...
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Huh. I've seen this type of thing done with pink flamingos (which was actually kind of cute) but never with toilets. Wonder who it was that nominated you for this. I'd just call them and tell them to come get the toilet, with the explanation that I give privately to charities. If they don't like it, too bad - they shouldn't have stuck a toilet on my lawn.
space opera
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
They forgot to list option four:
Call the police and report them for littering.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
First of all, I would take that toilet and not give it back to them.
Then I'd think about calling the police.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Hmm, if they tried that with me, that toilet would end up back at their offices - possibly via the window.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Maybe it's time to make a toilet trebuchet.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Take a sledge hammer to the toilet. Leave the pieces in a box by the curb. Don't respond in any other way.
Or, put a couple hundred pounds of weight in it (concrete, etc.) and leave it there with a night-vision video camera to catch the fun.
Dagonee
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I wonder if HfH even knows this is going on, or whether someone locally decided to do it and didn't inform HQ.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Option 5: Shot, then call the police.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Free toilets are good for a lot of things. You can make them into interesting planters. You can paint them and enter them in art contests. You can install them in your house if your toilet breaks down. Seriously I'd call Habitat for Humanity and see if they take donated items for building houses. Then donate the toilet. Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Don't forget the subtle threats of lawsuits.
Of course, you don't want a brick hurled through your window with a note saying that many people live in cinderblock houses and can't afford bricks.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Of course, you would donate it to a different chapter of HfH.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Oh - the toilet thing for a fund-raiser is pretty common, really. You've never heard of it, Mrs. M?
Our C.S.O. (like a PTA) did a decorate toilet thing all the time for a fund raiser. One person would pay to put it on someone else's lawn, who woulc in turn pay to have it moved to another person, etc. etc.
Farmgirl
(of course, ours were always decorate all cool with some theme, so you would know it was that kind of a joke...)
[ April 04, 2005, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Hey, don't take that kind of crapper!
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Free toilet. Keep their little note, and if they want their toilet back, tell them to speak to your lawyer. I'd call it vandalism.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Actually, I'm building a house. I'd like a free toilet. Is it functional? How far are you from Indiana and how much would I have to pay to get it here?
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Thanks, y'all. I'm glad I'm not overreacting.
Andrew actually is a lawyer and I worked as a paralegal - they couldn't have chosen a worse house.
I'm on the phone w/ the local H4H right now. I don't think it was sanctioned because the receptionist sounds like she thinks I'm nuts.
I wouldn't have minded a flamingo.
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Actually, that is a pretty funny, though mean, joke to play on somebody.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That's actually not such a bad idea to raise money, especially considering that cheap housing is under fire. It's annoying, yet effective. And very funny. A toilet!
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I have heard of this fundraising method before, but I didn't recall it was a porcelain statue. I would suggest they use something else, if you're offended...maybe a large, hot pink, plastic flamingo?
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
another use for free toilets - races.
They did this last year when RAGBRAI visited Fort Dodge. The toilets were on platforms with wheels, and I think they used plungers like ski poles.
It's probably a good idea that you called the H4H chapter - they may put a stop to this and you have performed a public service.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
This ticks me off, because I donate a considerable amount of money each year to H4H. I'd contact them about it, if I were you, and explain why it's inappropriate.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Farmgirl: Interesting. I guess if it is a humor thing, a tradition, that everyone knows and is used to, it could be considered cute. I still don't like the idea, though.
I much prefer the grocery stores asking if I want to donate a buck to some organization or another. They do that in this area all the time.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
In Farmgirl's description, these are all members of the organization it sounds like. They have notice to protest before it happens. This is like a random attack. I'm assuming Andrew was targeted by a student in one of his classes.
[ April 04, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Actually, from the description, it sounds like someone paid them $10 to put a toilet on Andrew's lawn.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
That's an obnoxious way to ask for a donation. I would be pissed, too.
quote:Free toilets are good for a lot of things. You can make them into interesting planters.
Actually, a plumber on our block did this. We used to laugh everytime we walked past his house and saw it. Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Okay, this is not sanctioned by the local H4H chapter and it's not a national program. They were as incredulous as I was. The executive director is out, but the very nice lady I spoke to said that she is going to want to speak to me. She also said that the international organization (which I assume is separate from the local) works with schools on fundraising, but I just cannot imagine them sanctioning this program.
I can see the humor in it, but it doesn't change the fact that this is plain wrong.
They should have researched Andrew more - a legal ethics professor with a law degree and a hormonal Southern wife is not a good candidate for this fundraiser.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
An artsy woman in our neighborhood once had a variety of beautifully decorated toilets lining her yard with roses and tulips and violets and all growing out of the tank and the bowl . . .
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
First, call the cops and tell them that H4H is growing pot on your lawn.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Warning shots over the head? Nahhhhh…. Just shot the toilet as they carry it!
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
One of the cancer research charities here does pink flamingos in the same way....you get 50 pink flamingos in your front yard, and for a donation, they'll take them away. I remember thinking when I read about it in the newspaper that it was an obnoxious way to raise money.
Then one of our neighbors got flamingoed. And it was really actually kind of cute. A zillion flamingos in your front yard looks obviously like a prank. A toilet in the front yard, not so much.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
In our neighborhood, we'd probably get fined by the HOA for either one.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
In that case, Dag, I'd be sending H4H a bill instead of a donation. Or perhaps selling the toilet to recoup the losses...
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
You know, I just thought of something. Around here a lot of people have junk cars in their yards. It's obviously a fundraiser gone awry.
space opera
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
"toilet trebuchet"
It's a very rude way to fundraise.
You could use it then pay the $10 for them to pick it up. Worth the money. At least with the pink flamangos they're aren't very heavy and you can get rid of them easily.
It's bordering on extortion, but the amount is so trivial, $10...it's like nuisance extortion.
Once when we came upon a toilet in the woods while frisbee golfing we put a rocket into it. The rocket went around and round faster and faster, with a high-pitched "kkkkwwwweeeee" sound. Then it went off, sending flames shooting over our heads. It was sweet! Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
That's kinda sad. I've always had a lot of respect for H4H. The flamingo thing sounds a bit better...like, if there were one.
Take the toilet and put deccopaje (spelling was brutally butchered) on it. A friend next door did that and it's really cute.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I have a neighbor who has a couple of urinals and toilet seats mounted on his fence as kind of a kitsch artish thing. They have other old period signs mounted and an old gas station pump that lights up too. It's kind of tacky but done about as tastefully as that kind of tackiness can be done. At least they live pretty far down the block from me. There are no HOAs in our neighborhood.
AJ
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
On the topic of "different" fundraisers, this year 3 Brownies (little girls in Girl Guides, a club) came to my place and were raising money for their winter camp. For $1.00 they'd build a "little" snowman in my front yard, for $2.00 they'd build a "medium" sized snowman and for $3.00 they'd make the biggest snowman they could
I thought it was cute
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That is cute!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
They'd have real trouble doing that in Napa.
We had no snow last winter.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'd have bought a snowman. Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Awww . . . cute little brownies. See, that's a good fundraiser. Appeal to people's parental instincts.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
I have to agree with the general concensus here - a toilet is tacky/nasty/trashy. Flamingoes would obviously be a joke, and campy as opposed to trashy. They're lucky they didn't get SHOT mucking around in your yard late at night.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Personally I love Jenny's idea of donating it to H4H. Seems like the perfect solution, really. A close second would be Dag's idea of making it impossible to lift, and then having the extorters cart it away.
I wouldn't really be offended if someone did this to me, but I also wouldn't be encouraged to donate by means of this tactic.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Since the organization apparently did not know about this, I think calling them was the right choice. They need to stop this before someone sues them or something.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Gryphon beat me to it - Mrs. M is, if memory serves, armed.
Maybe the marketing campaign is just trying to keep a lid on this before the crapper hits the fan.
-Trevor
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
We'd just take it and install it on a job or something. And if we were contacted about it, we'd say "Well, you gave us the option to have it taken away, and we chose not to. We decided to keep it instead. Thanks for the gift."
Jenny, you don't want it shipped, you can buy one local cheaper than you can afford the shipping.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
The thing that gets me is the "insurance." I think that blows it way over the top.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
You have a gun? Shoot up the toilet and leave it on their lawn. Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
Uh, yeah. That is way out of line. I'm glad to hear it's not sanctioned by the national office.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Your husband is likely to get written about in a campus newspaper for being a fuddy-duddy, though.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: I can see the humor in it, but it doesn't change the fact that this is plain wrong.
I'm sorry everyone feels that way about this. Like I said, it is not uncommon in our area, and usually most people take it with very good humor.
In fact, I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain when it is done by the school organization here.
But -- this is redneck country. And this is a small town, where most everyone supports whatever fund-raiser the school is doing, with good humor.
How is it "just wrong?"
Farmgirl
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But he could rebute it by saying it made his wife cry.
Cry, Mrs. M, and save his reputation!
[ April 04, 2005, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Or better, have a panic attack and sue!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
In Colorado, this would almost certainly lead to civil liability. Remember the cookie donors?
Edit: Darn! 2 seconds too late!
[ April 04, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: How is it "just wrong?"
You are inconveniencing someone for money. It's a mild form of extortion, which is at the very least rude.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Farmgirl, what if I did the same thing for, say, abortion rights, teaching under-privileged Satanists or...I dunno...insert an absurd cause here you don't like and wouldn't support.
Whether or not you support the cause in question doesn't change the fact that the donation tactic is invasive and crosses the line from aggressive to criminal - specifically, littering, trespassing, dumping (depending on the criminal code) and one or two other infractions.
And here's hoping you don't get slapped with fines from your local Housing Authority or Home Owner's Association for a variety of offenses.
The pink flamingos I would think cute - a toilet bowl, not so much.
And let's not even talk about possible property damage from the trespass and littering/dumping...
-Trevor
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I don't like it being assumed that I want to donate to this charity. As was just mentioned, what if it was one I didn't support?
What if my charity dollars are very slim (and they are) and I don't want to spend even 10 dollars of it on a charity that is not one I'd normally support?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: And here's hoping you don't get slapped with fines from your local Housing Authority or Home Owner's Association for a variety of offenses.
Well - I have never participated in this particular type of thing, even though I'm familiar with it and thought it was funny. I was never on the committee that did it.
Anyway - I'm talking about towns so small they don't even think about having "departments" such as you mention above.
I'm not sure how they are "inconvenienced" - I mean - the homeowner doesn't have to touch it or anything. If they want it off their ground, their donation moves it.
Now, I could see a problem if a small donation really wasn't possible...
FG
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
quote: In Colorado, this would almost certainly lead to civil liability. Remember the cookie donors?
Edit: Darn! 2 seconds too late!
Mwahahaha. I beat Dag!
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
In a small town where everybody literally knows everybody else, maybe.
At the very least, you know who not to play the joke on.
But it's an inconvience at the very least because now I either have to look at this absurd toilet or I have to call the agency in question and fork over money to have it removed. All because you think I should donate money to your cause.
Aside: You in the generic sense, not you specifically.
-Trevor
Posted by AntiCool (Member # 7386) on :
Or if you just don't want to donate to that cause.
edit: 1000 posts. What a post whore I am!
[ April 04, 2005, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: AntiCool ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Farmgirl, the way they did it - skulking around my house late at night, getting my dogs riled up, waking up Andrew, and scaring me - was wrong. There are 19 registered sex offenders in the area, in addition to the high crime level. For all we knew, they were home invaders. If it's not wrong, why not do it during the day?
Also, I think it's wrong to force people to donate money to any organization. Andrew and I are paying for fertility treatments and we don't have any extra charity dollars. We give to specific charities (Cystic Fibrosis Foundation and Love, Jen - a cancer research fund started in memory of a friend of mine who died from cancer) for specific reasons. Nowhere in their letter did they state that they would remove the toilet without a donation.
Also, there are a lot of animals in the area. We've had a lot of problems with skunks and racoons. What if they decided to investigate the toilet?
Lastly, I have OCD and there is a toilet on my lawn.
Posted by Cor (Member # 4295) on :
This is, definitely, one of the most ridiculous forms of solicitation I've ever heard of. I grew up in a small town, but our schools certainly never put toilets on people's lawns...or anything bigger than a flyer (flier sp?) for that matter. And there would be complaints about the flyers too.
As a homeowner now, I would seriously resent the presence of unsightly items on my lawn that I did not put there. It is an invasion of privacy and property. I get furious about ads stuck on my car window and junk mail in my mailbox, so a toilet would send me right over the top. And let's not even get on the topic of spam.
But beyond all that, is the fact that it frightened the people in the house to the extent that they went for their gun. When I was young, single and living alone, every noise frightened me. I would have been furious to find out the source of my panic was some idiot dropping a toilet on my lawn.
And let's just suppose someone HAD been shot and wounded or even killed during this fiasco... Mrs. M and family would have to live with that for the rest of their lives. And even if the donation seekers brought it upon themselves by tresspassing, I'm certain that would not reduce the guilt one iota.
If you want a donation for your charity, advertise on tv, on billboards, on the radio, and let people come to you. Don't call, mail, email, or otherwise disturb my privacy.
And absolutely, positively, do not drop a toilet on my lawn. I'm older and less easily frightened now. And I own a chakram.
[ April 04, 2005, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Cor ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I just got off the phone with the executive director. She was extremely nice and very apologetic and is going to call the contact person and have it removed. She was very upset about the whole situation and feels that it reflects poorly on H4H. I told her that I don't hold her or the national organization responsible and we laughed about it. Imagine coming back from lunch and having a message on your desk saying, "Please call Kira Marx re. toilet on her lawn."
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
It's gone.
The H4H exec. director called the Hollins contact and asked that they remove it. They came and rang our doorbell to speak with us, which I appreciated. We very calmly explained why we were upset and they gave us a pretty insincere apology. They didn't seem to care that they had made me feel unsafe in my own home or that they had woken us up. They informed us that they had permission from the VP and campus security. They also informed us that they would be continuing with the "fundraiser."
I think their "apology" annoyed me almost as much as the deed itself. They obviously didn't mean it and weren't even trying to see things from our point of view. One of the girls also insisted that they said in the letter that they would remove the toilet free of charge. When I got the letter and showed them that it said no such thing, they said they felt it was implied. Andrew and I suggested that they state that explicitly, rather than imply it. I nicely refrained from pointing out the grammatical mistakes in the letter.
I also called campus security because I had a hard time believing that they gave girls permission to skulk about people's houses late at night. They did know about the project, but they had no idea that it would be carried out so late. That makes me feel a lot better about campus security.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I hate fake apologies. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
If you want to be nasty about it, correct the letter in red along with the observation that at no point does the letter imply or state the toilet will be removed at no cost to the home owner upon the home owner's request.
And then send the letter to the National Office with your compliments as well as an observation concerning their representatives and their behavior when correcting a potentially criminal act.
-Trevor
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Get 'em! Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Did you call H4H again and inform them that it's still going on? Just in case they don't want it to.
Or, what Trevor suggested.
[ April 04, 2005, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
I'm sorry you hate fake apologies.
mph
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
kq, the local chapter told me that they have no affiliation with the Hollins branch and the girls told me the same thing. I don't think I'm going to call again, because there really isn't anything they can do and I don't want to bother them.
You know, if my actions had made someone feel unsafe in their home, I would be genuinely sorry, even if that had not been my intention.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If tensions mount, I'm sure Jimmy Carter will mediate.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Makes me wish you had taken the sludge hammer to it.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
:/ I agree, I hate insincere apologies. They really don't make anything better. If you're going to fake it, fake it well at least.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You have to think carefully before you plunge into such a conflict.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*stuffs Portabello*
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I bet H4H has a swirling debate on fundraising.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
MMmmmm.... Stuffed Mushrooms.... *drools*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
If I were you, I would still take it to the National level. And I would do the correcting the letter and sending a copy of it back with a scathing reply.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: One of the girls also insisted that they said in the letter that they would remove the toilet free of charge. When I got the letter and showed them that it said no such thing, they said they felt it was implied.
It's sad that the girl got all huffy about the letter during the insincere apology, but didn't even know what it said.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Farmgirl, I have to disagree with your viewpoint on this one.
quote:I'm not sure how they are "inconvenienced" - I mean - the homeowner doesn't have to touch it or anything. If they want it off their ground, their donation moves it.
I would not donate to an organization that solicited me in this way.
As stated above, by me and so many others, it is in poor taste.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
One could always just retrieve some of your dogs, ummm, manure, put a large quantity in the toilet and then pay them $2 to come pick it up.
Then proclaim innocence. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Mrs. M, I would still send a letter - thank the executive director for calling you and helping to straighten things out, but also express your dissatisfaction with the way the local group handled it and remind them that they may want to keep a better control over what is done in their name in the future.
I'm sorry you went through with it - I'd be mad too.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
This is a group of college students based out of the university?
Most colleges have an oversight board regulating student organizations.
You might find it satisfying to fire off a letter to the oversight group regarding these dips.
-Trevor
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think I read this story in an *excellent* book called "Zen and the Art of Fatherhood" or something like that.
The author and his wife are shopping in a furniture store with their as-of-yet-not-quite-pottytrained-toddler. They are distracted for a moment, and later hear their child declare triumphantly, "I did it!"
He did alright. There in the demonstration bathroom in the demonstration toilet he proudly showed his poopoo.
IIRC, they closed the lid of the comode and briskly left the building!
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
So that's where that came from!
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Hm. This whole story is amazing to me because:
Didn't two girls get the pants sued off of them because they left a plate of COOKIES on someone's porch at the inSANEly late hour of 10pm? And didn't the lady say that she was emotionally shaken up or something?
If that lawsuit can be won (and it was), then how can anyone expect Mrs. M to be ok with people skulking around her house even later than that to put a TOILET on her lawn? Jeez! The very fact that you were scared enough to get your gun shows that it was not at a good time, and extremely unacceptable.
edit. I'm repetitive.
[ April 04, 2005, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I'm completely with Adam on calling H4H and I'm glad to see that you've already done so by the time I finally got to this thread.
And Jaiden That's one I would TOTALLY be willing to participate in... assuming I had snow... this winter was pretty bleak in comparison to our normals.
[ April 04, 2005, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Goody Scrivener ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Well, if shock of seeing the toilet put Mrs. M in the hospital, then yeah, I'd say she'd win hands down. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
JenniK is involved in an orginization for girls, and I guess they did something like this, pnly with the pink flamingos, as a fundraiser...but with one huge differnce. They only did it to people they knew well, and the people were all in on it.
All the same, when Jenni told me about it I was not happy about it, and had it happened to me I would have trown them all out....that way they would have been out the money paid for them, and would not have been able to do it to anyone else.
Kwea
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I probably will send a letter to the local chapter. If I were them, I'd be doing all that I could to either censure or disband this chapter. I still don't understand how this thing is run - the local chapter didn't even know that there was a Hollins organization and the girls informed us that they have nothing to do with the local chapter. Okay. What's the point of having a national organization if the chapters aren't going to work together?
I forgot to tell y'all - the girls said that it's been their most successful fundraiser ever and that they already raised $60. I'm shocked that people are giving them money and I'm also shocked that $60 is their most successful fundraiser ever. If I had a bake sale in HS or college that raised less than $100, I'd consider it a failure. These girls all have access to kitchens - why not do something that brings people pleasure, instead of frightening and alienating them? Or sell bottled water. Anything. Our Dan_raven works with school fundraisers, I'm sure he could tell them about many things that would net more than $60.
BTW, I did think of the cookie girls and I have more sympathy with the lady, though I would only have wanted an apology in her case.
To go even further, because I'm feeling kind of hormonal - I could be pregnant right now (we'll know Saturday). If I am, it's a high risk pregnancy and I don't need any late-night scares. What if I had been in bed and gotten up and tripped because it was dark or because the dogs were running around at my feet? It's not that far-fetched and part of being a responsible member of society is thinking about how your actions might affect others.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I agree with you on that. (See my posts about how I would not have brought a sick baby to WenchCon had I known there would be a pregnant woman there.) It was completely irresponsible of them not to think of the fact that people might be in different places in their lives than they are. Pranking faculty and their families is very different from pranking their friends.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Ya know when I first started reading this thread, I kinda agreed it was annoying. Though not extortion since the "threat" hasta be a joke when a toilet costs so much more than the "payoff". Kinda like sending someone a $100 with the threat that ya won't take it back unless they send ya a $1
And since I don't come from Farmgirl's neck of the woods -- which, given her and her friends&acquaintances reaction to the same situation, I very sincerely think must be a very pleasant place filled with very nice people -- it mighta taken a minute for me to start laughing at myself for being annoyed. (Whoever came up with the fundraising suggestion probably came from an equally nice neighborhood.) Though if I lived in campus housing, it'd probably have only taken a second or so before I & "dumb college pranks".
Then I'd make the "insurance" payout with a note promising more for a special delivery. I mean anybody who'd live with a HOA would hafta enjoy shelling out cash for being screwed around with. (Don't worry, Dagonee, I'd pay off any fine. Unlike neo"conservative"s, I don't give gifts billed to the recipient's credit card.)
"I got my gun and..."
HOWEVER, it is disturbing to know that college students on a college campus are in danger of being killed for immaturity by someone who pulls out a concealable weapon, a handgun because an outdoor noise is a terrorizing experience. And am wondering whether the campus police would find that to be a threat to campus security.
[ April 05, 2005, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
quote: HOWEVER, it is disturbing to know that college students on a college campus are in danger of being killed for immaturity by someone who pulls out a concealable weapon, a handgun because an outdoor noise is a terrorizing experience
hold on a sec there - how is threatening anyone made different by the fact that it's a college campus? And if your level of immaturity is such that you're stupid enough to try a stunt that involves prowling late at night, then you should be willing to face the consequences. Mrs. M stated that there are listed sex offenders in the area. People get assaulted on college campuses just like they do anywhere else. Ignorance and immaturity are no exuse for idiotic behaviour. And becuase you live on a college campus, does that mean you have to relax your standards of safety? I think not. If that had been my house, they'd have had a warning shot across their bow and then I would have let the dog after them.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:you're stupid enough to try a stunt that involves prowling late at night, then you should be willing to face the consequences.
That would mean that tresspassing is a capital offense.
[ April 05, 2005, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Kat's back! As Kat, I mean. When did this happen?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs* It does feel a bit like a homecoming.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:HOWEVER, it is disturbing to know that college students on a college campus are in danger of being killed for immaturity by someone who pulls out a concealable weapon, a handgun because an outdoor noise is a terrorizing experience.
First of all, aspectre, they were not in danger of being killed. Yes, I do own a registered handgun for which I have a concealed carry permit. That is my right as an American citizen. However, since I am a responsible person, I have extensive training in the use of said gun for personal and home protection. Since the girls were not there to break into my house, they were in no danger from me. I got my gun because I didn't want to be retrieving it when people broke into the house.
Also, we may be on a college campus, but faculty housing is as far from the main campus and dorms as you can get and still be on the campus. Our street is very quiet and we seldom see students. Andrew and I are in the lower level of a three-family house and you have to go down a flight of stairs and down a path to get to our front door. In short, we never get anyone who is just passing by - everyone who comes down our walkway is coming to our house.
Frankly, I am hurt by the way you are trivializing my fears. I didn't hear a "noise," I heard footsteps. Heavy footsteps of at least 2 people at midnight on a Sunday. And my dogs went nuts, which they only do when the people outside are strangers. I wasn't "terrorized," but I was alarmed and I feel that was perfectly appropriate. Especially considering the number of sex offenders in my area and the amount of crime.
As to how funny you think it is - what if I put a toilet on your lawn with a letter demanding you donate to the NRA in order to have it removed? How amused would you be then?
And I spoke with campus security and they don't see me as a threat at all.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
It can be - which is why I make a point to announce my presence loudly and often in such situations.
However, most places require some sort of clear and present danger before permitting the application of lethal force so just crawling around in the bushes won't do it.
It does, however, increase the risk of accidents and misunderstandings. And since the tresspasser is the one at risk of being shot, I would think (s)he would be more motivated to avoid any such circumstances.
-Trevor
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:It can be
When can it be? Only if they are doing more than trespassing. If someone is on your property threatening you with harm, it's not the trespassing that makes it okay to shoot them.
I agree with the being prepared to face the consequences, but appropriate consequences are needing to apologize, having the fundraiser stopped, maybe a misdeanor ticket for trespassing, getting sued for medical bills if the person is vindictive.
[ April 05, 2005, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
I don't go running around shooting everyone who casts a shadow on my lawn. Like Mrs.M said, I have a handgun and I have been properly trained in its use. If someone is stupid enough to be prowling around my house in the middle of the night, then it's THEIR problem whether or not they get shot. I live in Texas, and if I were in fear for my life from a prowler, and I shoot that person, there is not a grand jury in the state that will indict me. How about expecting the trespasser/criminal to have some responsibility for their actions? I don't know their intentions, and I will assume the worst. It would be stupid of me not to. The best way to not get shot? Don't Do Stupid Things.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So, anyone who walks on your lawn at night deserves to die.
That means that your lawn or your peace of mind is more important at all points than someone else's right to live. That because they have made noise in the night and disturbed your rest, their life is forfeit.
I DO agree with needing to be prepared to face the consequences. I do not believe that death is a legitimate consequence.
[ April 05, 2005, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
It can be if you get shot and killed while committing said act.
I'm not arguing capital offense as a legal sanction for tresspassing and immature stupidity, but if you happen to die as a result of an action, one could certainly say that action had a "capital offense."
Tresspassing is one crime where the death is a very possible outcome because people can and should be concerned with their safety.
Arguing details, firing wildly into the night - illegal. Firing at a stranger in your bedroom, probably legal, depending on circumstances.
-Trevor
Edit: I don't believe that either Gryphon or Mrs. M are advocating executing someone for tresspassing on their lawn.
What they are saying is, the sudden and unexpected noise gave or would have given them probable cause to reach for their sidearms.
When a person has a loaded weapon in their hands, there is always a chance of a round being discharged.
The question becomes whether or not the prowler is providing a sense of threat or menace that a reasonable person would react to.
Hence, tromping through someone's yard, no. Walking into someone's bedroom uninvited, yes.
However, I would fault the teens for being stupid enough to commit an act where a reasonable person might become nervous or worried about their personal safety.
[ April 05, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Because something is a possible consequence does not make it a legitimate consequence. Walking down the street when someone does a drive-by shooting also makes death a possible consequence, but that doesn't mean that everyone who walks down the street who dies gets what is coming to them.
[ April 05, 2005, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As I have noted before, I did not say it was a legal sanction as in the legal result after going through the legal process.
I did, however, observe that as offenses go, it is one that can get a person killed.
-Trevor
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I guess it's good to keep in mind that annoying the wrong person could get you killed the same way that it is good to keep in mind that walking in the wrong neighborhood or getting married (most violence against women is done by their SO) could get you killed.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Yepper.
Just because I should be able to walk down the street in a high-crime neighborhood unmolested doesn't mean that I can.
Just because I should be able to walk past a house of skinheads and not get attacked doesn't mean I can without benefit of police escort.
And if you are part of an interracial marriage, don't move in next to Klan headquarters unless you like grief or really, really want to make a point.
-Trevor
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I guess I should mention that the more I read this thread, the more I can see Mrs. M's and other people's point of view on this (the danger of it, the annoyance, etc.) and if I were ever on a committee that suggested this (going forward) I would probably point out many of the important aspects that you all have brought up.
Maybe I'm just surprised at myself that I never viewed it in that light at all - that these things never entered my head up until now, when obviously I'm kinda in the minority in my prior viewpoint.
But that must come from the fact that as a whole, I am a very open, trusting person, the opposite of paranoid, and so had never properly empathized with those who live in more dangerous areas, or have a stronger emotional need for security that I do.
I think this has been a good interaction. I learned a lot. And I thank you. really.
Farmgirl
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I would have said this is more of an urban consideration, at least a sensibility of more heavily populated areas - until the Colorado cookie incident.
[ April 13, 2005, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Farmgirl, that's awesome.
aspectre, it won't play on my computer.
I'm glad this thread was bumped, so to speak, because there have been more recent developments. I forgot to update because I've had other things on my mind.
Andrew and I got the following letter a couple days after the incident:
quote:Dear Dr. and Mrs. Marx,
Thank you for your input regarding our fundraiser. Please accept our apologies for any disturbance or inconvenience we may have caused. We have taken steps to make faculty members more aware of the fundraiser and its purpose so that they may have the opportunity to decline to participate in advance. We have also changed the time of day at which we will be moving the toilet, and we revised the letter to avoid any confusion. If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me at extension _____.
Best Regards[sic], _________________, '06 Habitat for Humanity Treasurer
I really appreciated the letter and it was on very nice stationary, too. I sent a letter back saying thanks for the letter and no hard feelings.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote: I guess it's good to keep in mind that annoying the wrong person could get you killed the same way
This is really really really good advice.
-Katarain
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wait a minute, am I reading this right? People are annoyed and think it is wrong that Mrs. M., upon hearing 2< intruders on her lawn at midnight, and hearing her dog barking at them, got her lawfully-purchased and carried handgun in case the intruders planned on intruding into her home and not just her lawn?
Is this a joke? If Mrs. M. had shot them just when they were on the lawn, that would be one thing. I think it would be reprehensible for her (or anyone) to shoot at an intruder in that situation (just for trespassing on one's lawn). But to get the gun ready in case things take a more dangerous turn?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Rake - I think Kat and I managed to come to the same level of understanding, although I don't think she shares my jaded concerns about politeness.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Uh, where do you see those people? I see one who's saying that, and you should know better than to expect better of him.
edit to make clear: the other people are saying it would be wrong to shoot the kids out on the lawn, not that its wrong to ready a weapon.
[ April 13, 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
OK, I checked the thread a couple times, and must've missed that. My apologies.
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A toilet!
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That's one I would TOTALLY be willing to participate in... assuming I had snow... this winter was pretty bleak in comparison to our normals.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
& ![[Party]](graemlins/party.gif)
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