I'm writing a paper, and there's not a lot written about my topic in English. I can puzzle out which bits in French are relevant bits, but I can't do an exact translation. If I posted a couple short snippets here, is anyone willing to give me a hand?
quote:L'ouvrage preudo-hermetique viendrait donc, selon Baeumker, d'un autuer medieval inconnu, qui aurait rassemblé, au tournant des XIIe et XIIIe siècles, les sources les plus diverses (Boèce, l'Aclepius, Macrobe, le ps. Denys, auustin, Proclus), en un condensé frappant et obscur, placé sous le patronage de l'august Hermès Trismégiste.
quote:L'Attribution au Trismegiste est d'autre part loin d'etreconstant des les manuscrits, et nous verrons l'existence d'ne tradition muette à cet égard.
De plus, le texte lui-meme ne présente pas dans la tradition manuscrite une structure uniforme. Tantot il se compose en effet de sentences suiies d'un bref commentaire, tantot les sentences se trouvent seules.
(And I apologize for any missed or misplced accents.)
[ April 17, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by no. 6 (Member # 7753) on :
From Babelfish:
quote: The preudo-hermetic work would thus come, according to Baeumker, of an unknown autuer medieval, which would have gathered, to the turning of XIIe and XIIIe centuries, the most various sources (Boèce, Aclepius, Macrobe, the PS Denys, auustin, Proclus), in a digest striking and obscure, placed under the patronage of the august Hermès Trismégiste.
Babelfish Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I'd use babelfish, but it doesn't do a good enough job. I need to be able to quote this stuff. I need to know exactly what it says.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:L'ouvrage preudo-hermetique viendrait donc, selon Baeumker, d'un autuer medieval inconnu, qui aurait rassemblé, au tournant des XIIe et XIIIe siècles, les sources les plus diverses (Boèce, l'Aclepius, Macrobe, le ps. Denys, auustin, Proclus), en un condensé frappant et obscur, placé sous le patronage de l'august Hermès Trismégiste.
The pseudo-hermetic work came from, according to Baeumker, an unknown medieval author, who would have assembled the most diverse sources (these are all names) at the turn of the 12th and 13th centuries in a strinking and obscure condensation, working beneath the patronage of the Great Hermes Trismegiste.
Edit: I'm assuming preudo and august are typos and should be pseudo and auguste.
[ April 13, 2005, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Annie ]
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Yeah, typos. I can't type very well even in English, it's no surprise I can't type well in French, either.
Thank you a whole big lot, annie. Thank you.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
quote:L'Attribution au Trismegiste est d'autre part loin d'etreconstant des les manuscrits, et nous verrons l'existence d'ne tradition muette à cet égard.
De plus, le texte lui-meme ne présente pas dans la tradition manuscrite une structure uniforme. Tantot il se compose en effet de sentences suiies d'un bref commentaire, tantot les sentences se trouvent seules.
The attribution to Trismegiste is furthermore far from being consistent in the manuscripts, and we will witnses the existence of a silent tradition to this effect.
Furthermore, the text itself does not present itself in the manuscript tradition of a uniform structure. Soemtimes it is composed, in effect, of sentences followed by a brief commentary, and sometimes the sentences are found alone.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Well. I have no addition to that. Good work ! Maybe some Typos, but you must understand well your texts.
Annie et Susie, vous êtes d'admirables francophone ! J'oserai même dire francophile pour avoir si bien traduit ces textes. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Annie and Susie are the same person .
At least that's what I'm 95% of.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Merci... je ne suis pas parfait, mais je me debrouille.
(Aussi, je suis Annie et Susie. Je suis desolee pour la confusion.)
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
A tiny additional point (though you probably know this already, EL, if this is what your essay's on): In my classics classes, at least, the usual form of the word we use is Trismegistus, rather than Trismegiste. Obviously it's just the Latin version rather than the French so it doesn't really matter, but just in case.
And whoa, Teshi, you're 95% of Annie? Weird. Are you twins or something? I mean, even parents only pass on 50% of their genetics... (I'm apparently in a nit-picky mood.)
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Oh, and also, EL, I'm not sure what class this is for, but you could email Dr. Porreca in the Classics Dept. He guest-lectured a class of mine about Hermes Trismegistus and related topics -- I'm pretty sure that's his area of specialty -- so he could definitely point you to any good English sources out there. He's quite friendly and I'm sure he'd be willing to help (you can tell him I sent you if you like). His email's on the Classics webpage you can get to from the UW site, or I can email it to you.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Ooops, missing word . There should be a "sure" in there .
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Email Dr. Porreca? Bahahaha! *wipes tear away* Sorry, forgive my slightly deranged amusement. I'm on the essay/exam edge right now, and it's unhinged me a bit.
I'm the one doing the Hermetic Literature class this term. With Porreca. It's his specialty, and the articles and texts I have are all his. I think maybe one or two out of the ten sources I have are in English. I had to give up on the Italian as too difficult, but I can puzzle French well enough for it to be useful. I've spent all term with Hermes Bloody Trismegistus, and I can't wait to be rid of him. As much as I loved the class.
But thank you very much anyway.
[ April 14, 2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Let me get this straight: You all know one another? Or at least attend(ed) the same University?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
You mean someone missed our page-and-a-half of the "who are you and do I know you?" discussion? Wow.
Yes, we go to the same school, and have similar nerdy pursuits, those hers tend toward Greek while mine is Latin. I think we decided we know OF each other, and know a lot of the same people, but never formally met ourselves.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
How come I live in the biggest city in Canada, attend a HUGE university and there is not one single Jatraquero/a other than me!?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Because UW is better. Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Annie = Susie...
I learn more each day... Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Ahhhhhhh. I wondered a bit when that was your topic (hence the "I'm not sure what class it's for"), but thought maybe it could be for one of your religion classes instead. I didn't know he was doing that class.
And see, what I find amusing about the UW representation is that there's what, 3 of us here? (4 if twinky the alumni counts) and two of us are related to the Classics Department which has maybe 80 students total in the entire university. But Teshi, if it's any comfort, I'd probably be at UofT instead if I'd heard about the Celtic Studies programme a year or two before I did.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
For a while it amused me that the only two known Latin Minors (me and Bridget) lived in the same hallway in the same residence. Though I think there might be a couple more official minors now.
Anyhow, can I beg one or two more?
quote:Il faut considérer le commentaire 1 comme tiré sans doute d'un ouvrage plus vaste, parallèle au Liber de sapitentia philosophorum. Il accompagne dès l'origine les sentences et ne peut en être dissocié. L'ensemble constitue la plus ancienne forme connue du texte.
quote:Dans les manuscrits du Liber, l'attribution à Hermès Trismégistus est nettement affirmée au dèbut du XIVe siècle, en P. Le copiste est categorique; il voit dans les sentences les règles de théologie du trismegiste et suggère d'attribuer le commentaire 1 à Calcidius.
quote:Pseudo-hermetique, parce que d'emblee on a bien senti que cet ouvrage entrait mal dans le domaine habituel du venerable Egyptien.
I'm really sorry if this is bugging people, I'll stop if it is.
[ April 14, 2005, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
quote:Il faut considérer le commentaire 1 comme tiré sans doute d'un ouvrage plus vaste, parallèle au Liber de sapitentia philosophorum. Il accompagne dès l'origine les sentences et ne peut en être dissocié. L'ensemble constitue la plus ancienne forme connue du texte.
We must consider the commentary, without doubt, to be taken from a vaster work, like the Liber(?) of Sapitentia Philosophorum. It has accompanied the sentences from the beginning and can't be separated from them. The ensemble constitutes the oldest known form of the text.
quote:Dans les manuscrits du Liber, l'attribution à Hermès Trismégistus est nettement affirmée au dèbut du XIVe siècle, en P. Le copiste est categorique; il voit dans les sentences les règles de théologie du trismegiste et suggère d'attribuer le commentaire 1 à Calcidius.
In Liber's manuscripts, the attribution to Hermes Trismegistus is clearly affirmed at the beginning of the 13th century, in (P.? I don't understand this - maybe a reference to a work that starts with P?) the copyist is emphatic; he sees in the sentences the rules of theology of Trismegiste and suggests attributing the commentary to Calcidius.
quote:Pseudo-hermetique, parce que d'emblee on a bien senti que cet ouvrage entrait mal dans le domaine habituel du venerable Egyptien.
Pseudo-hermetic, because since (emblee? Not sure....) you can plainly sense that this work was a poor fit in the habitual realm of the venerable Egyptian.
(edit: Crap. Is vaster a word? Grammatically, it should be, neh?)
[ April 14, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Susie Derkins ]
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Oh, and it's not bothersome at all. I find it pleasantly diverting. Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Well done, Annie ! I just add at your good work the translation of "d'emblée" in the last passage. It means "straightaway" or "rightaway". Annie, you impress me, you know ? Because this are not easy texts.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
It's a French introduction to an obscure medieval Latin theology text. Anything in italics is probably in Latin, so don't worry over it much. Liber de sapientia philosophorum is the Book Concerning the Wisdom of Philsophers. "P" is a particular manuscript, I think, and I only figured that out after you posted, or I would have added a note. Sorry about that.
Annie impresses me, too. And this all makes even more sense reading it in English, and I seem to have picked out the exact right passages! I feel a lot better about this now.
[ April 14, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Aw, shucks. Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
I confirm about Liber. It's a latin title.
Au fait, comment vas-tu, Annie après tes ennuis de santé ?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Annie, would you mind posting or emailing me your real name, so I can explain the nice English passages in my essay?
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Je vais tres bien, merci. Mon doigt est presque totalement gueri, et j'ai resuscite un peu en general.
And my real name is Anneke Majors.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Merci beaucoup. Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
I'm happy for you, Marieke. C'est amusant, c'est le prénom de ma petite cousine. See you soon on hatrack !
For French translation, i'm ready to help you Eaquae. (If Annie doesn't answer before )
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
One last one. (I hope it's the last!)
quote:A la suite de Philon d'Alexandrie qui avait abondamment développé le thème du Logos divin, le theologie chrétienne alexandrine soutenue par Origène a particulièrement insisté sur l'incorporéité de Dieu face à l'anthropomorphime judaïque, sur la doctrine du Logos-Fils de Dieu comme personne distincte du Pere, et sur la coéternité du Fils au Pere.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
quote:A la suite de Philon d'Alexandrie qui avait abondamment développé le thème du Logos divin, le theologie chrétienne alexandrine soutenue par Origène a particulièrement insisté sur l'incorporéité de Dieu face à l'anthropomorphime judaïque, sur la doctrine du Logos-Fils de Dieu comme personne distincte du Pere, et sur la coéternité du Fils au Pere.
As a result of Philon of Alexandria who had abundantly developped the theme of divine Logos (knowledge? Or maybe it's purposely left in Greek), the Alexandiran Christian theology supported by Origine insisted specifically on the bodylessness of God as contrasted with Judaic anthropomorphism, on the doctrine of Logos-Son of God as a person distinct from the Father, and on the ... (this coéternité seems to be a very specific theological term: it only yields 24 hits on Google. It has something to do with the relationship of the Godhead... might have to ask a Catholic) of the Son to the Father.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Given the context, Logos is definitely left in Greek on purpose, it's another way of referring to Jesus - John uses it in his Gospel. I wasn't sure before, but now I am. Coéternité is another of those terms I wasn't sure of, but from context, "coeternity" is exactly what it means (Jesus always existed with the Father).
Thank you so much again. Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Just in case anyone is curious, this all went really well when I handed in my paper tonight. In fact, this topic may end up being my honours thesis and/or I may be part of a published paper on this. Yikes!
Anyway, I'm happy.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Good work! I have a special place in my heart for medieval scholars. They're such wise, gentle people.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Well, Eaquae. I hope you have success with your work. And good work, Marieke. I give you the francophony medal ! Posted by Lille Mu (Member # 7115) on :
It's probably too late but is it right to translate sentences in french by sentences in english ? It's just a question but I learned these two words hasn't the same meaning (sentence in english = phrase in french but I don't know how you can translate sentence in english). And Logos is used in french as an "abstract" word for language with lots of variations I can't explain.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
In these cases, "sentences" was almost perfectly correct, and Logos, when talking theology, is best just to keep Logos. It's a specific term in Christology.
Posted by Susie Derkins (Member # 7718) on :
Yeah, I hesitated with the sentences, because in modern French, sentence refers to the judicial sense of the word in English. However, I couldn't find any way that definition would fit in to this context, and figured it must be an older version of the word that's closer to what would currently be called phrases. Any native speakers could probably verify or disprove that better than me.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Currently the term of sentences is used in french for juridiction. But it is used in the past for perticular text aboout religion. It's a variante. Your translation is correct. About Logos, in french, the common definition is the symbole of a company (ex : the comma for Nike), but as all greec or latin words, logo has many other definitions. And here is a good translation too. I recall : logo is the language and also the reason... It's a complexe word.
I'm going to sleep : it is 02:22 AM, i must get up tomorow ! Bonne nuit, les amis.
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I can't type very well even in English, it's no surprise I can't type well in French, either.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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(I'm apparently in a nit-picky mood.)
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