Just wondering what the collective Hatrack opinion on the hand kiss is. Why did this custom disappear? Is it good or bad that it did?
Ladies: If a man kissed your hand on meeting you for the first time, would you find that charming or creepy?
Gentlemen: If other men started reviving the custom of kissing ladies' hands, would you go along with it, or adamantly refuse?
This is idle curiosity mixed with a deeper issue of concern to me which I may or may not continue to explore here, depending on how much interest this generates.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I kissed my first girlfriend on the hand at the end of our second date. She rather seemed to like it (at least, we went out for over a year after that).
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Creepy. Definitely creepy.
In no small part because, if I am not mistaken, the custom was in practice when ladies wore gloves, and the men didn't actually KISS the hands...just sort of air-kissed above them.
Also, regardless of my personal dislike of having my personal space invaded by strangers, it would definitely take a guy of GREAT charm (and charm that existed in places OTHER than his own mind) to pull it off without coming off like either a weirdo or a creep.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
On the first time meeting, I might be a little creeped out (depends on the situation, too). I'm usually charmed when my hand is kissed by an acquaintance or friend, or at least by someone I have met a few times. On the whole, I think it's a nice gesture. A step up from a hug, but not as far as a kiss on the cheek.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well if it happened nowadays, creepy.
EDIT: Unless I knew the person well.
[ May 04, 2005, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I've had my hand kissed upon first meetings and did not find it creepy. It hasn't disappeared completely, it just isn't something American men do, usually.
The custom of the hand kiss is really a very subtle thing. A man can tell a woman a lot about his intentions or interest by the way he kisses her hand. Does he hold her hand lightly or firmly? Does he keep his fingers still or lightly caress her palm? Then there are more obvious things like the duration, pressure or moisture of the kiss itself.
I'm tellin' ya - a couple hundered years ago, they could really pack quite a bit of foreplay into a 'simple' hand kiss.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I've been known to do it when either 1) it's someone I know well, or 2) I'm completely schnockered.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Creepy, if it's someone I just met. Funny, if it's meant that way. Possibly charming if it's someone I trust who is trying to flirt.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:In no small part because, if I am not mistaken, the custom was in practice when ladies wore gloves, and the men didn't actually KISS the hands...just sort of air-kissed above them.
That all depends. The custom varied across place and time. In many cases, actual contact was made, and, as Olivetta has said, could even be used to communicate subtle things.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
boyfriend- sweet
anyone else- creepy
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Ok, I thought we were JUST talking about first-time meetings of strangers. I've had my hubby (and the occasional bf or two) kiss my hand, and THEN it's charming.
I'm too reserved, though, to really appreciate it if some random stranger tries to kiss my hand on first meeting...unless it were in some sort of context like, say, dressing up in historical dress (like a Ren Faire).
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
For a moment I thought this was going to be a thread about that adorable children's book with the little raccoon.
Um, not that I ever read it!
*ahem*
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Dan's Top Ten Rules of Hand Kisses.
10) If she's wearing boxing gloves, forget it.
9) Women, check your rings when he's done. Men, check your gold teeth.
8) If her boyfriend is wearing boxing gloves, forget it.
7) Remember gents, the hand you kiss is in the perfect position to slap you silly.
6) If she's handcuffed, forget it.
5) In wintertime, lips could freeze to metal jewelry.
4) If she's holding a gun, forget it, unless of course, she is requesting you do so, then you kiss anything the well armed lady asks.
3) Check to make sure your dentures are in tight first.
2) No tongue.
1) If she's the Pope, only kiss the ring.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I wonder if a guy would mind me doing that...
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Ok, I thought we were JUST talking about first-time meetings of strangers.
I was. I'm not much interested here in what people do with or to their wives or girlfriends or whatever. Obviously a woman would accept a lot of things from her husband whom she loves that she would never accept from a stranger.
My question was solely concerned with introductions between people meeting for the first time. For example, consider the following scenario:
WOMAN'S FRIEND: [Woman's name], I'd like you to meet my friend, [man's name]. WOMAN (Extending her hand): Nice to meet you. MAN: Nice to meet you. (Takes woman's hand and brings his lips down to meet it for a fraction of a second.)
(Edit) Dan_raven:
[ May 04, 2005, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by Talison (Member # 7935) on :
I have issues with germs, especially on my hands (don't get me started on the precautionary measures to take before leaving the house) and avoid handshakes whenever politely possible.
Hand kissing would not go over well with me Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I vote for cute in that scenario.
Syn - I once kissed a guy's hand. It was a girl-ask-guy date, so I thought it rather amusing. Plus I had a huge monster crush on him. He later described me to someone as having "gumption."
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
The only men who've ever done that to me were European... no, I think one was Brazillian. Anyway, I didn't freak out over it.
American boys would do it sometimes as a pseudo-casual greeting, but only if they were flirting. How I responded to THAT had more to do with how cute the guy was.
I did have a co-worker of my husband kiss me on the cheek as a greeting the first time we met. HE was American, and I was a bit startled by it.
I get greeting kisses from friends of either gender all the time, though.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Social customs that harken back to a time when women had fewer rights than they do now and dont't have a practical element and/or are gender neutral concern me, because they make me wonder if the person using them would prefer that the relative power balance between men and women was the same as it was when that custom was prevalent.
An example of a custom with a practical element that can be gender neutral would be holding the door open for someone. It's a polite thing to do, and it's not unreasonable for whoever reaches the door first to do it.
A man trying to kiss my hand on a first meeting would not score any points with me, and if I could remove my hand or stop him from completing the action without causing a scene, I would.
I have had the experience more than once on meeting a man and extending my hand for a handshake that he grasps just my fingers and turns my hand so it's parallel to the ground instead of perpendicular, which usually also causes my fingers to bend, like he was going to kiss my hand. I dislike it intensely. Part of the reason is the old "you can tell a lot about a man from his handshake" line, and I feel to an extent that they do not consider me an equal because they will not give me a "real" handshake. I'm not trying to say that I judge people by their handshakes, although I probably do a little... I'm trying to say that I think some men still believe that, and don't feel they need to/should shake a young woman's hand the same way they shake a man's.
Hand kisses from men I know well and are using it affectionately in an exaggerated courtly manner are fine, as are hand kisses from men I know well who are attempting to be amusing. Hand kisses from men I am romantically involved with can be very nice, indeed.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Interesting. The hand kiss was usually perfomed by men of equal or lower social status than the lady, though. So might it not be thought of as a symbol of respect rather than oppression?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
See, but I'm not sure it's relevant what the original custom was in this case. When I've had people try it to me the vibe I got off them was not respect, it was condensation. Maybe I'm too touchy about it, or maybe I've had the wrong people trying to kiss my hand.
A part of it also may be prickliness due to the concept of "seperate but equal." You (general you) can tell me that you mean it as a gesture of respect, but what I see is you wanting to treat me in a different way due to my gender. I'm fine with you wanting to treat all people with respect and kindness. And I'm fine with you wanting to treat me specially because I'm your friend or lover. But wanting to treat me differently because of my gender throws up red flags.
I don't deserve extra respect because I'm female. Saying I do puts me on a pedastal, where I don't want to be. Pedastals are not comfortable. There is nothing interesting to do on them. And they are hard to live up to... and if you trip and fall, it's a lot further to the ground.
I don't think you, Verily, are the type of guy who would squick me out in person. I suspect you like the "romance" aspect of the custom... it would be a more gracious and debonair way to greet a woman than the options you have now. But unfortunately I think there are still a lot of men out there who would rather women's rights took a few huge steps backwards, and as long as that is the case I don't think anybody is going to be able to revive this custom.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
One more thing... even if they were of equal or lower social status, they were still men. So they still had more rights than the women involved, both legal and by custom. So even if the man is implying that he thinks I'm his social superior, he could still be also implying that he wants me to stay in my "place." Be that the drawing room, the kitchen, or the bedroom.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I was best friends years ago with a guy who hand-kissed women. He was oh so charming and cute and adorable, and he could get away with it whereas the next thousand men could not. He had style and charisma and...
Yep. From him, the women loved it. From anyone else, not so much. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
*holds his hand up for ElJay to kiss*
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
I love the adorable little children's book with the racoon. I read it. I don't care who knows.
Rain
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*doffs hat* *sweeps into a deep bow, flourishing hat several times so the feather bobs around* *seizes fugu's hand gently but firmly with one hand and places the other on his wrist*
Ah! I am delighted to make your aquaintance! You are magnificent!
*turns hand over, drops one delicate kiss in the center of his palm* *squeezes hand lightly and lets go* *steps back and replaces hat at a jaunty angle*
That about what ya had in mind?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yep.
Well, except the feather in the hat. I wasn't expecting a regular Cyrano . . . or whatever the feminine form of his name would be, anyways Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I was trying to find a way to indicate that I would raise your hand up and kinda clutch it to me as I spoke, before I kissed it, but I couldn't find the right phrasing. "Raises fugu's hand to my breast" just didn't seem like a good idea.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I wouldn't mind.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
This fear of touching and flirting is weird. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I'm certainly not afraid of it, what does it look like I'm doing here? Posted by HesterGray (Member # 7384) on :
For a stranger, it would be icky. It would have to be from a guy that I'd at least already agreed to go on a date with. You know, possibly on the date, but it would be okay if he asked, I said yes, and he kissed my hand. Does that make sense?
Also, no slobbery hand kisses! I don't want to have to wipe my hand off afterward. Gross.
Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
My husband kisses my hand every so often.. but he needs to do it more often.
[ May 05, 2005, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: unicornwhisperer ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I'm actually totally okay with it if it's about flirting. The original question wasn't about flirting, it was about returnign to the hand kiss as a widespread gesture of respect from men to women on an initial introduction. While that does not necessarily preclude flirting, it does not specify it, either.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: When I've had people try it to me the vibe I got off them was not respect, it was condensation.
>_< I really really hope you meant condescension, and not condensation.
EWWWWW!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Really. How interesting. If someone came up to me and kissed my hand, I would assume that they would be flirting. I can't imagine someone doing it just to say hello in this day and age to every woman that they meet, which is the age we're discussing doing this in.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Edit -- rivka:
Little bit of both.
Sorry, no, I meant condescension. I was so struck by fugu's presence that I was distracted, and all thoughts of proper word choice flew from my poor, bedazzled brain.
Oh, wait. He wasn't in the thread yet, was he? Nevermind.
[ May 05, 2005, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:You know, possibly on the date, but it would be okay if he asked, I said yes, and he kissed my hand. Does that make sense?
All except the part about making him ask first. I don't know, I just think that a romantic gesture would be more romantic if it were spontaneous. Having to ask permission takes the edge off, I think.
quote:Also, no slobbery hand kisses! I don't want to have to wipe my hand off afterward. Gross.
That would be true of any kiss at any time, wouldn't it?
quote:Really. How interesting. If someone came up to me and kissed my hand, I would assume that they would be flirting. I can't imagine someone doing it just to say hello in this day and age to every woman that they meet, which is the age we're discussing doing this in.
I see your point, but I was also speculating about a general return of the custom itself. I suppose it would be hard to do this today without looking like flirtation. But if everyone did it for long enough, presumably it would stop looking like that.
Edit: And no, I did not just contadict myself. By referring to it as a "romantic" gesture, I was specifically addressing the issue that had been brought up of men doing this on dates.
[ May 05, 2005, 12:35 AM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Storm: Right... Verily's talking about reviving the custom of doing it to every woman you meet just to say hello. Check out his third post in the thread:
quote: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ok, I thought we were JUST talking about first-time meetings of strangers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I was. I'm not much interested here in what people do with or to their wives or girlfriends or whatever. Obviously a woman would accept a lot of things from her husband whom she loves that she would never accept from a stranger. My question was solely concerned with introductions between people meeting for the first time. For example, consider the following scenario: WOMAN'S FRIEND: [Woman's name], I'd like you to meet my friend, [man's name]. WOMAN (Extending her hand): Nice to meet you. MAN: Nice to meet you. (Takes woman's hand and brings his lips down to meet it for a fraction of a second.)
Obviously, I can't imagine it either. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I'm making her swoon by the mere aura of my eminent arrival, how cool is that
*sigh* ElJay, I don't suppose a clone of you was made at some point and raised in the bloomington area?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Verily, I've actually had guys ask if they could kiss me or even hold my hand and had it be very romantic. It's all in how you do it. And it implies a concern about not being too forward that can be sweet.
I don't think it's necessary, certainly. But it's not necessarily bad, either. It's all about what works for you. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, I was actually responding to Eljay, but since you brought it up, I think it would be incredibly cool if it caught on and became a social norm again. Seriously, it would kick much ass.
And if that caught on, what other anachronisms might we see returning? Ladies could give little favors to football players and whatnot for them to wear in their game. Women could throw roses out onto the field for their favorite player. Shooting dangerous looks over fans. The subtle look across the crowded room. Wouldn't that be kind of cool?
Yeah, more romance between the sexes and less of this sterile all of us are the same boringness. I mean, in the office, o.k.. But can't we give it a break on the weekends or something and just have fun?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Not as far as I'm aware, fugu. Sorry 'bout that.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ah well. Anyways, the clone wouldn't be you despite looking mostly like you, so 'twouldn't matter .
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, o.k.. "My bad", as you kids say.
I just can't picture it as something that was done all the time even back in the day, really. It would actually be really cool if someone other than me would dig up a link on the custom and its history. edit: What I mean to say is that I bet it was always primarilly, in actuality, about flirting.
[ May 05, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: But can't we give it a break on the weekends or something and just have fun?
Man, I don't know where you hang out on weekends, but I don't want to be there. The subtle look across a crowded room is very much alive.
Are you really sure you want to go the route of giving favors to athetes and the like, though? I think that ends up with a large number of females sighing after a few "prime" males based on a distressingly few unimportant characteristics and ignoring the rest.
[ May 05, 2005, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
What is with the almost-homophones in this thread?
"Eminent"? You don't think much of yourself. Although immanent would have been more impressive . . . Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It's probably just me. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I'm finding the dichotomy of trying to carry on a serious discussion about the thread topic and field fugu's over-the-top flirting somewhat amusing.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I thought the "favors" idea was kind of neat. Let's be honest, a lot of women swoon over football players for the wrong reasons anyway. Why not let them give the players a little scarf to tie on during the game? It would let the woman whose favor had been chosen feel special for the duration of the game, and the players could go into the locker room afterward and brag to their teammates about how many favors they'd been offered. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Best way to get outrageously flirted with is to flirt outrageously, Storm. Which may be why I see subtle glances... I send 'em.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I thought the best way was to casually stretch, flex my massive pectorals, run my fingers through my long, golden hair and then wait for the women to come to me. Who knew?
Posted by Talison (Member # 7935) on :
Is it possible to NOT treat people with less respect because of their gender without thinking of everyone as "the same"? I've NEVER had the problem of considering myself normal Yet I usually (I hope) manage not to make assumptions based on a person’s gender. I try to respond to people I meet and interact with based on THEIR interaction with me. Not the person in questions gender, nationality or age.
*Passes out pocket sized bottles of hand sanitizer* Slobbery kisses are only acceptable from dogs Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:This fear of touching and flirting is weird. [Smile]
Coming back to this a bit late, but some of us are just a bit reserved in nature! I don't mind touching and flirting, but if I've just met you, I'd prefer you stay out of my personal space until I know for certain that you're not a creep. (You in the general sense, not you specifically. )
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Storm: That only works if you don't have better hair than me. I don't flock to men with better hair than I have.
Goodnight all! It's been fun!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Aha, Storm is Prince Charming from Shrek II.
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
I'm kind of surprised that so many people don't like hand-kissing or find it to be weird. I'm a pretty reserved person and a big fan of personal space barriers, but hand-kissing doesn't bother me (as long as it's not slobbery!). The couple of times, I've experienced it, it's been awkward, but mostly because I didn't know how to react.
Of course, I'm also used to greeting people with a kiss on the cheek, whether I've met them before or not, so YMMV.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
If I had to choose between the return of the hand kiss and the adoption of the European cheek kiss, I'd choose the latter.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I like touching and kissing. Hand kisses would be fun - a little dangerous, a little naughty, and great fun. And Olivia's right- you can tell a lot about a person by the way they choose to touch you. A hand kiss would let you know right away how much further interaction you'd want to have with a person.
Posted by Ele (Member # 708) on :
Not cool unless you are at an SCA or Civil War re-enactment event or you are Johnny Depp. In which case of the latter, you can do pretty nearly anything you want to and get away with it. Except the tongue. Keep the tongue inside. If you don't, it's like being greeted by a dog, and you don't want that comparison surfacing when you first meet a girl you think you might like.
I do think the hand kiss at the end of the first date very sweet and thrilling because, at that time, you know the feeling is mutual. But still, keep the tongue inside. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I completely agree with ElJay about it NOT wanting it come back as a general custom. Mock humility is not fun, I don't want to be treated differently because I'm female by people I have just met, possibly in business situations, and I'd rather keep strangers' mouths as far away from me as possible.
It's different for flirting and "romantic" situations, though - all bets are off. That would be very fun.
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
I had someone kiss my hand once, but it was at a Civil War re-enactment. It was a guy I knew, and I reached out to shake his hand, and he took it and kissed it. It startled me at first, but then it was kind of cool. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I have never had my hand kissed in normal society, but frequently and greeted with the hand kiss in the Ren world.I find id charming to have a man bow over my hand and kiss it, while uttering, "Delighted, milady"
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Hmm. I guess I'm incorrigably flirtatious. I'd LIKE every man I met to kiss my hand. It lets me pretend I'm a queen or a goddess or some such.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: 2) No tongue.
That would be number 1 most important in MY list, Dan!
ElJay - I think you're the only one trying to be serious here..... Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*sigh*
Verily was, too.
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
I think it would certainly be interesting. While I do like it, I don't think I would in a business situation, simply because it doesn't seem very professional. Like Annie, I wouldn't mind if the Euorpean custom of cheek kisses crossed the Atlantic either.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Hey, I was serious! Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Annie beat me to it. The "bisou" greeting would be a very pleasant habit to start in America. Although I would have no idea of protocol. Say you met the president of your company in an elevator.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Well, I've gotten tipsy with the president of my company...
(Edit: And his wife.)
(Edit 2: That looks even worse. And about 20 other people. In perfectly respectable circumstances. But he's a friendly, personable guy, and if cheek kisses were the custom here I think he'd have no problem pulling it off appropriately.)
[ May 05, 2005, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Actually, I've seen plenty of serious responses here. Enough to know what the general consensus is, anyway. Women, in general, seem to dislike the custom and would oppose its return. The only woman so far who seems she would actively support it is Jenny Gardener.
Useful information if I ever get to meet all of you at a con.
Few men have weighed in on the issue, but at this point it seems irrelevant. It doesn't really matter whether or not the majority of men would welcome the return of the custom. Women oppose it, and as it is the women whose hands would be kissed, they are the ones who should have the ultimate say.
[ May 06, 2005, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
hey, I liked it!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: If I had to choose between the return of the hand kiss and the adoption of the European cheek kiss, I'd choose the latter.
This is definitely not a 'European' thing. It's pretty much a Gallic thing, as far as I know, and if we're talking about men doing it to other men, please count me right out.
Even with the opposite sx, it has to be a lot more nerve-wracking than a hand kiss. Someone you don't know or barely know's face is heading in your face's direction. Are they going to actually kiss you on the lips or the cheek? As the reciever, should I be kissing them on the lips or the cheek? Yeah, there's just too much ambiguity there to be comfortable.
If someone is puckering up in my general direction, I'd just as soon know that they're offering a no-kidding kiss and not some foofy French greeting. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Hey, Stormy!
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Ah ! A great thing, the kiss. In France, The custom is the cheek kiss to said hello. Pleasant.
But the hand kiss is something more romantic. It's something made by man with a lot of respect for the woman. It would said "you are pleasant to me, but if you don't want a deeper relationship, i don't go over the barrier." That's what i think. Moreover, it's a good way to perceive if the woman are receptive or not. But i speak like a frenchman and i don't know what is the custom in USA.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Eljay.
What's a girl like you doing in a nice place like this?
Posted by Crotalus (Member # 7339) on :
What was that movie with Michael Keaton, where he played kind of a bum and he hand kissed a woman, but instead of kissing her hand he actually kissed his own hand? That was hilarious. I think it was a Shakespeare work or something like that. ANyway, if I was to do it, that's how I'd do it.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:What's a girl like you doing in a nice place like this?
Trying really hard to behave myself, usually. Sometimes I succeed better than others. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Much Ado About Nothing, C.
My friends from Mexico greet each other and me with a cheek kiss. Sometimes I'm ready, sometimes I'm not.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I don't think I'd like the cheek kiss thing. That's a little too intimate for my tastes. Humans tend to be protective of their heads--with good reason, I might add--so we're usually pretty careful about whom we will let touch our heads.
On the other hand, it is reserved for friends. You don't kiss the cheek of someone you're just meeting for the first time, if I understand the custom correctly. That's probably what makes it feel less squicky than the hand kiss. Yes, the face is a more intimate region than the hand, but whereas it was socially acceptable--even expected!--to kiss the hand of someone you didn't know, it was never acceptable to kiss their face.
quote:But the hand kiss is something more romantic. It's something made by man with a lot of respect for the woman. It would said "you are pleasant to me, but if you don't want a deeper relationship, i don't go over the barrier."
That's what i think. Moreover, it's a good way to perceive if the woman are receptive or not.
Are you saying the hand kiss is still common practice in France? Well, that's no surprise, I guess. Gallic romanticism is renowned the world over. I have to say, I like the way you've described it. It still wouldn't be used for a first meeting this way, but at least when used on a female friend, your description gives it more of a purpose than just wanting to be amusing or anachronistic.
[ May 06, 2005, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Being part Arab, two or three cheek kisses on alternating cheeks is a perfectly acceptable method of greeting in my view. I do not, however, use it on North Americans.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*dissapointed*
[ May 06, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I can make an exception if you like. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
And actually, I lied. One of my friends from Quebec greets me with cheek kisses. She's North American. So I guess I can't make general statements like that. Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I just like the idea of bein hand-kissed by every man I run into because I'm full of myself.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I want everyone I meet to bow in my presence. That'd be cool.
Why oh why can't I be the emperor? Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Here, men greet each other with handshakes, limp ones at that. Men greet women, but don't handshake or otherwise have any physical contact, unless the woman initiates, which is usually only done by foreigners, and is usually a handshake. Women greet each other with cheek kisses.
I used to not like cheek kisses at all. But since everyone here does them, well, I've gotten used to them. They're okay. I'd also be perfectly fine not doing them.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Oh, the sarcastic comment I want to make.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
(sigh) I'd love it if some guy not-skeezily kissed my hand. It all depends on the context.
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
It's all about custom and context for me, too, Ryuko.
I will always resent being treated as an object rather than as a person, and when any given gesture is done as a sort of push-button thing ("I do this, and so you react thusly, or else there is something wrong with you -- i.e., you are rude, or not really feminine, or too sensitive, etc"), it'll get my dander up. I would much rather lift every damn heavy thing I have, fix my own car, amuse my own sweet self, and stubbornate my own way into destruction than have anyone play me like a fiddle. I ain't no fiddle, and I ain't no jack-in-the-box toy for you to wind up and spring off at your convenience, neither. 'Specially not to prove something to yourself about yourself.
When an action of any intimacy is non-customary for the context, I consider it to be just that more likely to be a lever to get something or somewhere with me. And I start listening pretty sharp for the old "but I'm a nice guy, and women never appreciate me" spiel. (i.e., I've been pushing all the right buttons, and they aren't springing rightways for me)
Which is why ElJay's reaction makes sense to me.
On the other hand, in a culture where a given action of intimacy is commonplace, then I judge it more likely to be an issue of custom or routine, and the "what the heck is he trying to get out of me" red flags don't rise up.
*shrug, twinkling grin
But I'll extend the benefit of the doubt, once, with any 'Rackers.
--CT
[ May 07, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
That sounds rather rough. What I really mean to say is this: kind and thoughtful social interaction rests at its base on making the other person as comfortable and happy as possible. This is the purpose of the rules of etiquette.
Now, if one is going to work outside the generally accepted rules of behavior, that may well be just fine. If one has taken the time and energy to figure out whether this particular action will be acceptable (pleasing, welcome, non-threatening) to this particular person, then the focus has remained appropriate. And it ought to go without saying that any signals from the other person to the contrary should be both looked for and respected assiduously.
On the other hand, if the attempted action is done for the sake of your doing it, or because it should garner a particular response from the person (regardless of his or her individual tempermant and perspective), then it is done for you, not the other person. And that would make you a boor.
My two cents from my own individual and particular perspective.
--CT
[ May 07, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*hug*
Hi CT! As always, you hit it right on the nose. Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:What I really mean to say is this: kind and thoughtful social interaction rests at its base on making the other person as comfortable and happy as possible.
But Sara, that's exactly why this thread exists. I'm not about to just start kissing the hands of women I meet without finding out how they are likely to feel about it first.
I think it's a common belief in our society that women are disappointed that "chivalry is dead". (Taking chivalry not in its original, literal sense of "code of battlefield conduct for horseback-mounted warriors", of course, but rather in its later, social sense.) I've often wondered to what extent that is true; would women, in general, prefer chivalry to die off completely, or would they like to see it come back somewhat?
Of course I can't imagine any modern woman wanting it to come back completely. Having a man want to protect you could be flattering, I'm sure, but sooner or later it will reach a point where you get fed up with the implication that you can't handle yourself, and then the game is over. But does that mean that the little niceties are forever out of the question?
For a man like me, who wants to treat everyone he meets with the respect and decency they deserve, this can pose a real conundrum. In the old days, everyone knew the rules. Etiquette was firm enough, and taught well enough, and enforced well enough, that everyone knew what was expected of them.
This is no longer true. Nowadays every person has different expectations, and it can be difficult to ascertain those expectations quickly enough to respond to them appropriately. I've had women get mad at me for holding the door for them. I've had women get mad at me for not holding the door for them. The old rules are out the window, which isn't bad in and of itself, but they don't seem to have been replaced by any new ones. Or at least, whatever new rules exist, exist in different forms in the minds of every individual person. We just don't know what we're supposed to do anymore.
So I made this thread to get a general idea of what the attitude was of women (in general; of course every individual woman will have her own opinions) toward a particular chivalrous nicety. (And also, incidentally, I wondered how my fellow men felt about it.) I chose the hand kiss almost arbitrarily, because I've always regarded it as charming and non-threatening. The women of Hatrack have since educated me that it is the opposite, and that any attempts on my part to revive the custom would be unwelcome, inappropriate, and alienating.
But I didn't learn this by trying it. I learned it by asking. I asked because I wanted to know whether it would even be okay to try it. Now that I know it would not be, I will not risk making the women I meet uncomfortable and unhappy by trying it.
So you see, I did not start this thread because I am a boor. I started this thread because I wish to avoid being a boor.
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
[Note: this first part was written before I read Verily's charming reply. The edit at the end is in response, not this first part.]
One more thought, and then I promise to shut up.
A useful axiom for me has been "If someone loves you, then he or she generally will be happy when you are happy and sad when you are sad." I take this to be true in the case of a dating relationship, a friendship, a marriage, even a parental relationship. When we are with another we care about (and care about well, thoughtfully, generously, authentically), we are not happy at their discomfort, nor are we disgruntled at their pleasure.
Of course, we all have moments of jealousy, schadenfreude, resentment at another's good fortune, or just plain meanness. But I take that to be a momentary fault of character in the person experiencing it, not a problem with the person so envied. I find it in myself, sometimes, and I find that those are times when I am fearful or ashamed of something in me. (It's never really about the other person after all -- it is about me and my sense of self.)
So somewhere in my first marriage, I made the promise to myself that I wouldn't uphold any relationships in which either of us made a consistent and entrenched habit of taking pleasure in the other's pain, or pain in the other's pleasure. When that is a fundamental aspect of a relationship, then it is an unhealthy relationship.
And so if I were being courted, someone would be incorrect in assuming that I would enjoy this particular breach of custom (in the North American context, where I live). I could certainly understand and forgive a mistake. But if the courter were not immediately sensitive and respectful of my discomfort, then this would be a pretty clear sign (for me) that neither of us would be aided by pursuing such a relationship.
Of course, this has nothing to do with whether another courtee might (or should) react differently to such a gesture. Were it welcomed by another, I would see no reason for him or her not to pursue the relationship.
It's all about context, in other words.
[What Ryuko said. *grin ]
--CT
[Hey, ElJay!
Aw, Verily, I know you are not a boor. I can tell. The purpose of the thread was quite clear to me, and I find your broaching the topic quite charming, actually.
In fact, I think that a keen sense of courtesy -- when coupled with a quiet self-assurance -- is too often underestimated by this culture. Were you to bring up this topic [of conversation] on a date, coupled with a gently teasing look in your eye and a nearly (but not quite) exaggerated air of courteous attentiveness, I imagine that you might find many to be receptive to the flirtation.
Spontaneity is somewhat overrated. Don't understimate the appeal of restrained and attentive politeness. A slight air of reserve in one's courting can be quite irresistible, especially in this era of widespread eagerness to be "spontaneous."
I think the most romantic approach is to pay very careful and quiet attention to the person you are with. If you do or say something that makes her uncomfortable, make sure you notice it. And then don't do it again. (Don't hold it against her, either. By the way, this goes both ways -- for women courters as well as men.) This means you will end up reacting to an individual and quirky person, not an object. Not a stand-in symbol for "woman" or "date" or whatever. That, to me, is both romantic and hot. It is a more difficult and complicated way to relate to another, but it certainly bodes well for all future things in that relationship. *smile]
--CT
[ May 07, 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Mayfly ]
Posted by Mayfly (Member # 7870) on :
PS:
(Really, last bit -- I promise. )
And then if one is generally reserved, one can be particularly romantic and attractive by being outrageous and truly spontaneous at the most unpredictable moments. *twinkle
Isn't life just grand?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I took up the costum of kissing my lady friends on the hand when I'm feeling cute and want cheer them up about 10 years ago. At parties or clubs I like to kiss the hand of new ladies I meet too... they REALLY like it! Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
I was born and raised in Venezuela and the usual greeting between guys and girls is a light kiss on the cheek and a hug, even when meeting someone for the first time.
It's really a much 'friendlier' culture, a bit more laid back I'd say in comparison to American culture. There are no 'accidents' of any kind because a stranger won't try to kiss anyone in the mouth and they do they'll get a swift slap in the face much like in any other place.
It's one of the things I miss to tell the truth, not only does it make your relationship more personal from the start but it also removes some of the awkwardness from meeting someone for the first time.
Here I usually just shake hands when I meet someone. The only time I hug & kiss a new acquaintance is when I know they are comfortable with it.
Hand kissing: I've done it before, but it needs to be a spur of the moment sort of thing. If it's forced it will just be strange for both people. It also helps if you say something along the lines of "Delighted to meet you" or "my pleasure".
Definitely something to be judged on a case to case basis though. Girls usually feel flattered when you do it but as I said, you sort of have to know how they will react before you do it Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
When I was working as a tutor, I had a first-time tutee kiss my hand at the end of the tutoring session one time. Creeped me out something awful, but maybe it wouldn't have if he hadn't been pretty creepy in the first place. I don't know. But that's the only time I've ever been kissed on the hand, and I definitely did not enjoy the experience.
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
I've been kissed on the hand many times, by two very different types of men. The first category involves the older man(45 and up), smooth, sophisticated, and flirty, but respectful. No learing, no lecherous staring at the chestal area while in a good position to do so. This type of hand kiss has always made my heart flutter and my face heat up, with a giggle hiding behind my teeth. This type of kiss happened most often when I was in Italy, but also in Boston and other cities with high european populations. The second category introduced itself to me when I started frequenting Goth Clubs. It involved skinny, malnourished little Lotharios, with velvet capes that weighed more than they did swirled artfully behind them as they bent over my hand in a not so gracefull swoop, staring at my cleavage and breathing heavily into my hand. These are pretty much the only situations I've ever had my hand kissed in. And, as one can guess, the first category is much more attractive than the second. There is something much more acceptable about an older man kissing your hand in a gentlemenly way while still expressing his appreciation for your beauty. Very few younger men seem able to pull this combination of subtle flirtatiousness and sweet gallantry. However, if one were to try, and actually pull it off, I wouldnt complain....
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That would be true of any kiss at any time, wouldn't it?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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