We had 12:01 tickets. The theatre messed up and a bunch of people who had 12:01 tickets for Thursday were let in. Apparently 12:01 thursday is still Wed. in theatre land. This caused quite a few problems in general.
As far as the movie went, I liked it. Although it was so long I'm not sure I'd remember all the parts I might have disliked. There was still bad dialog. But overall I wasn't cringing nearly as much. We watched 1 and 2 before going. So this one was by far better. I'm not going to say anything spoilerish though. More on that after more people get a chance to watch.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
I won't post any spoilers today. I just saw it and I liked it. I watched Episode I two weekends ago and Episode II this past weekend. Between work and the midnight show I watched the documentary on the bonus disk of the original triliogy boxed set and played some Star Wars Battlefront on the X-box to get fully in the Star Wars spirit. I'll wait until after the weekend to post any specifics about Episode III so that most people will have had a chance to watch it.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
It was definately the best. Far better than I had dared hope for. It actually made a fairly decent movie, which completely surprised me.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought it was fantastic, other than one ungodly awful line that had the entire theater laughing from its horribleness, it was fantastic.
I'll post a more in depth fanatical raving about it later.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Let's see if all you first nighters can guess who George Lucas voted for. I'll give you a hint, he gave the line "You're either with us, or with our enemies" to the being of pure evil.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh I know! The first thought that popped into my head was "Did he just call Bush a Sith?"
Semi Spoiler but not really*** the line as best I can remember it:
"I serve the Republic" - OW "You're either with me or against me" - A "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" - OW
The stuff about a democracy turning into a tyranny was good and interesting, but I felt that line was a direct shot at Bush, though, I still liked it either way.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Bush isn't a being of pure evil, I'm just saying that the entire exchange between Anakin and ObiWan right before the ass-kicking commenced had me in stitches.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought pretty much everything that happened on that planet had me tense and agitated.
I stopped laughing when the droid comedy show at the beginning of the movie ended.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Crappy dialogue, unbelievable and confusing plot, great CGI.
Exactly what I should've expected.
Entertaining overall.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
I and my brother had more or less the same problems with it: Anakin could have used a real actor, and the droid comics weren't really necessary.
Apart from that I think I'm one of the few in the cinema, maybe the only one, who cringed at the "with me or against me" line...
All things considered, it was an ok movie. Now I'll have to find somebody who owns Episode 2 and watch that one also. (I didn't dare to after seeing the disaster that was Episode 1...)
Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
Man, I should have just gone. I'm up at 4 a.m. anyhow. I actually woke up because I thought of a brilliant idea for something to do more efficiently at work.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:I'm not going to say anything spoilerish though. More on that after more people get a chance to watch.
MAJOR SPOILER QUESTION: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I hear Anakin goes bad and becomes Darth Vadar!! Is that TRUE!? Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know, people have been saying, "You're either with us or against us," in all sorts of variations probably for as long as human beings decided to group up and start whaling on each other, and some poor schmuck got caught in the middle.
Lucas also wrote these things decades ago.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I heard that "Revenge of the Sith" wasn't the original title.
There's a rumor (OK, I started the rumor) that the original title was...
The Sith Hits the Fan
(insert innocent smiley here)
I did notice a commercial last night, though, that announced that today was the day that "Sith Happens."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Lucas also wrote these things decades ago.
This is one of Lucas' most popular lies. Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I go to see the film tonight at 10:15. I'm glad that most of what I hear is positive. Even if this isn't the movie to end all movies it sounds like it will at least be much more entertaining than the last two and that is good enough for me. I have to admit that I'm fairly excited about it.
Posted by Orson Scott Card (Member # 209) on :
Lucas planned the whole storyline decades ago. But the script was definitely written before the Iraq war - these things take a long time to make.
Jesus said, "Those who are not with us are against us." Though he also said, "Those who are not against us are with us." And he was far from the first.
Lucas is part of the Hollywood Leftist establishment, of course - as self-satisfied with the perfect correctness of his beliefs as any of them. But it is far more likely that Sith would be referencing Lucas's formative war - Vietnam - than current events that had not happened at the time he was writing the script.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I thoughht the acting was much better. Sidious was over-the-top, but he always has been. I mean, DUH. Something annoys me about the way Padme said "Anakin". The accent or something didn't seem to fit.
My showing was at 12:15, after hours of standing in lline with people who had plasic lightsaber battles in the lobby Someone took bets. "Two bucks on the chubby Asian with the lightstaff thingy." There was also a Darth Vader in a Santa suit. It was amusing. Oh, and they let everyone in with outside drinks and stuff. People in the line behind me played LotR monopoly.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . From reading general reactions here and on a SW fan list I'm on, I wonder if I saw the same movie.
Droid comedy show? The droids have always provided a bit of comic relief, esp in the OT. Call it a flaw if you like, but that is one thing that is consistent with the old SW.
Confusing plot? Well, it WAS midnight and all, but it didn't confuse ME. I'll chalk that one up to poor attention spans and feel smugly superior. Nyah.
One thing, though - I think the prequel trilogy could have been better as maybe one four hour movie. Not that I didn't appreciate a good bit of the eye-candy-ish filler in the first two, but you know.
Anakin's fall was, to me, a believable example of a young adult identity crisis (in unbelievable circumstances). People make lifelong crazy choices when they are that age. They convert to other religions, make decisions about what to accept and what to reject in their upbringing.
Basically, this was easily the best Star Wars movie since before Ewoks. Was it Lawrence of Arabia, or Shakespeare? No. It was a Staar Wars movie. A danged fine Star Wars movie.
On the SW ML I get, someone said, "George Lucas can still deliver the suck." I wondered what the heck she had been smoking.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I didn't take that "With me or against me" bit as a slam on Bush at all. It's not a new idea.
But one thing I did truly love:
* & & & * * * * * *
* ** When Anakin accused Obi-Wan of turning Padme against him, and Obi-Wan said, "You did that yourself" (or something along those lines). Ouch. The truth hurts.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
According to Lucas, its an accident of history. He claims its about Vietnam and Nixon and Roman/French history.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I was going to say what I thought of it (I went to a 12:08 show), but Olivetta said it all already.
I enjoyed it, much more than I thought I was going to.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I didn't see it as a slam against Bush, either. Had it been in a movie six years ago, it would have been merely hack writing.
Lucas may have included it as a dig, I haven't the faintest idea. Me, I'm much more bothered by the idea that the Bush adminstration speaks in bad movie villain dialogue.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
I went to see it Thuesday 23:59 and I think i'll go next week again.
I love Star Wars ! I reviewed the return of the Jedi last evening.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
"Only the Sith deal in absolutes" - Obi-Wan Kenobi, as he fires up his lightsaber to deal in the absolute of death...
You can't make this stuff up. You just can't. Well, I guess Lucas can...
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:Originally posted by IdemosthenesI: Let's see if all you first nighters can guess who George Lucas voted for. I'll give you a hint, he gave the line "You're either with us, or with our enemies" to the being of pure evil.
Jar Jar Binks?
Maybe this balances out Two Tower's "open war is upon you whether you risk it or not."
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
tern - but... well, I can't say what happened without major spoilers, but Obi-Wan, more than anyone in the film (except possibly Padme) fought against blindly following orders he felt were wrong.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
"with us or against us" is really an ancient quote and idea. Why are people making such a big deal of it now? I freaked out when Bush said it originally, because of all the old old stories that use the phrase. Usually that concept DOES lead to Big Brother and secret police, if the people let it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Why are people making such a big deal of it now?
I suspect that it's because many Bush supporters may not have as broad a familiarity with historical context. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: Why are people making such a big deal of it now?
I suspect that it's because many Bush supporters may not have as broad a familiarity with historical context.
Oh, boy. I can't wait to see MrSquicky's post reminding you that this isn't that kind of forum, Tom.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:as he fires up his lightsaber to deal in the absolute of death
I'd have a hard time think of death as absolute, considering how often Luke saw a 'dead' Obi-wan. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Tom, do you have evidence that people who support president Bush are "making such a big deal of it now" moreso than people who do not? Seems to me rather the opposite.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Megan!
Notice I managed to post mostlly non-spoilerish comments while not waxing poetic about the manly virtues of a certain Jedi Master (Sith Lords are our speciality) whose eyes evidently changed color after 20 years in the desert (but who cares, 'cause he's hot).
Until now. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
quote: Tom, do you have evidence that people who support president Bush are "making such a big deal of it now" moreso than people who do not?
This would require that I take the whole thing seriously. I would rather not. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Tom, that just doesn't make sense. It isn't the Bush supporters who are screaming in horror and drawing the parallels.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Nice cop-out, Tom. Add a smile or a wink and you can get in your licks, eh? Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"It isn't the Bush supporters who are screaming in horror and drawing the parallels."
Okay, I'll take this just seriously enough to answer you, Katie.
Specifically, on this issue, the noise being made about Bush/Sith comparisons is indeed coming from conservatives, most of whom are taking it as further "proof" of Hollywood's liberal bias.
I personally am hard-pressed to care any less, but perhaps other people consider this worth some mental energy.
And to respond to Moose: if it makes you feel any better, I sincerely feel that Bush supporters are in fact less likely to consciously recognize historical parallels and/or semiotic connotations. Many of his speeches are deliberately coded to evoke that kind of response, but it's a useless effort if its audience is aware of the attempt. But, again, as this is a personal gut feeling, I'm not going to waste time insisting that it's a political theory. *laugh*
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
I had fun. It had the same weanesses as all the SW movies. More than once I thought "Why is this character doing this? It doesn't make sense!".
But it was also good where Star Wars is good.
If you are a fan of Star Wars, especially with how low the bar has dropped, I don't think you'll be dissapointed.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
quote:Tom, do you have evidence that people who support president Bush are "making such a big deal of it now" moreso than people who do not? Seems to me rather the opposite.
I'd like to point out that I only mentioned it in this thread after several others brought it up.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Fair enough, Tom. My gut feeling is that it happens just as often in the opposite direction, because in general one is more likely to dissect an opinion one disagrees with than one he agrees with. Thus, for example, I think Kerry supporters would be less likely to consciously recognize such things in his speeches as well.
Of course, I don't listen to many speeches (as few seem substantive), so my gut may be less informed than yours. *smile*
--Pop
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
[ignoring Bush talk][morning thoughts]
Livvy, when I said "confusing" plot, I didn't mean that it was hard to understand, per se, just that there were scenes I was left wondering, "Why was that in there?" or, "Why are you telling us that AGAIN?".
Anakin's transformation was as unconvincing as, and possibly because of, the lack of chemistry between him and Padame.
Gen. Grievous, while interesting to watch, was gratuitous filler. So were the Wookies. I was just like, "get on with the movie!" Well, less so with the Wookies. They were cool. As were the other alien planets.
On the upside, Ewan saved the movie. Again. Even with the horrible lines they make him say. The loose ends are tied up pretty believably. Natalie Portman is hot. The "66" scene is cool.
Also, the LW&W trailer gave me goosebumps.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Chris, I wasn't even using this thread as my source data -- I've seen it brought up myriad other places. I apologize if my comment seemed to be an accusation of any sort.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Oh, no worries. It wasn't that, it just read to me like "where are you getting that impression" and me, I got it from a few posts up. Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
Wow.... great moive. You have to love a great bad guy.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
Thank you Jay for getting back on topic. Only 6 hours and 5 minutes until I get to see it and all I really want is to hear either good or bad as I anticipate 10:15. I am enjoying hearing both sides because I get really excited when I hear someone jump in and say something like "it was freaking awesome" but then I read the next post that says it was "only OK and that Lucas still sucks" and remember that I need to just go in with no expectations. So get back to my emotional roller coaster. if you would please.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Wow, Frisco. I thought the Anakin/Padme thing was much more believable in this movie than before (though maybe not entirely convincing... good enough for a SW romance) as was the relationship between Anakin annd Obi-Wan.
I also thought Grievous was cool. Partly because the Clone Wars shorts made him really cool, and partly because he was a Vader precursor (More machine, now, than man/alien). Also, he was a character who had previously killed Jedi, and fit well into Palpy's scheme.
I agree with you about Ewan, and the LW&W trailer, though.
The only thing my Beloved said as we left was that he couldn't stand Natalie Portman, that he really didn't ever want to see her again. Which puts her in the company of Juliette Lewis and Julia Roberts, which I don't get why he doesn't like any of them (well, okay, Juliette Lewis is annoying). He said she peaked in The Professional.
Sometimes I really don't understand him.
But I really didn't see any filler. repetition... you have to expect that from a Star Wars movie, or at least I do. It's part of tthe music.
I admit I'm a bit sleep-deprived today, so that may be part of it, but I haven't been this much in lovee with a Star Wars movie since I was ten years old.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You know, I have to say, I'm beginning to agree with Ron on Natalie Portman. I'm not looking forward to her in this. (I'm holding off on seeing it until my birthday; it's a tradition. )
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
You'll love it, kq. There really isn't much NP in it. They cut scenes where she was instrumental in forming the rebellion, so she doesn't have much to do but sit or stand around with a bump way too small to have nearly-ready-to-birth twins in it.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
Okay, I said that I wasn't going to post anything specific until after the weekend, but since everybody else is already talking about it I won't wait.
I would say that the biggest shortcoming that I saw was the lack of onscreen chemistry between Ankin and Padme. There was something there in Episode III but too little too late in my opinion. Aside from that I felt that with his love for Padme being the foundation of his path to the Dark Side it actually makes the love story from Episode II not seem so out of place anymore. I thought that Anakin's transformation was very believable and a large part of that was the fact that he was in love with Padme and feared loosing her because of the content of the visions that he had been having. From there how does the quote go? "Fear leads to...". Anyways I felt that the transformation should have made sense to anyone who had watched the other movies and could add 1 and 1 to get 2 without a calculator. I don't feel that Grevious or the scenes on the various alien planets where the Jedi were killed were filler. George Lucas likes to provide lots of incedental details that aren't strictly necessary to tell the story and that has always been a part of what drew me, and many others, to keep watching these movies over and over again. Similarly someone commented about the crappy dialogue, but again that has been a part of the Star Wars Saga from the beggining and I think is part of its charm. I watched the documentary on the original trilogy special edition boxed set bonus CD while waiting to go see the movie and was reminded that Harrison Ford, Carrie Fisher, and Mark Hammil among others had a saying thet "You can write this stuff, but you can't say this stuff." They were talking about the dialogue in the first movie of course and also the second and third movies later in the documentary.
As to the infamous line "You are with me, or you are my enemy", Bush is far from the first person to express this sentiment. Also, while online I have heard a number of conservatives comment on the parallel, they have been outnumbered by liberals commenting on it. In real life, aka the office I work in, I have yet to hear a comment on it by a conservative and I have heard nothing but comments on it by liberals.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
While I have not and will not likely see tne movie for some time (I am in Kuiat!) The book was very well written and the plot of the fall seemed very believable in it.
I was most impressed by Sidius saying "You are arresting the Prime Chancellor because of religious differences? We have very strict laws about that Master Jedi" I hope that line was in the movie.
That shows how in an effort to be politically inclusive, evil can take center stage. Far from being anti-Bush this seems anti left!
BC
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
It wasn't.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
R2D2 Rocked. He is something else
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
That is sad the book was very very good for a star wars book. I gave it to my nephew before I left but i was most impressed by how it took a known point, the end of the last movie, and another known point, the beginning of the first, and connected them while still being surprising. It was belivable as written, the fall of anikin a self fullfilling prophesey.
(this is the sloppiest keyboard ever!)
BC
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
quote: Lucas is part of the Hollywood Leftist establishment
Hmmm. Which is highly frowned upon by the "Greed is good, War is Peace, I am Jesus" right wing party.
Obi Wan Rules!
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I didn't like that Padme in this movie changed from being a fairly strong female character who isn't afraid of anything, to one who sits around all day waiting for Anakin to come home and talking about how scared she is. Fully a third of her lines were some variation of, "I'm scared." It was like we were looking at a completely different character.
I loved Anakin's, "You turned her against me." Um, let's see, who was just strangling her to death? Oh, you! Yea, it's Obi-Wan that's the problem here.
I thought the relationships between both Anakin and Obi-Wan and Anakin and Palpatine were much more realistic here. I could actually understand why Anakin ended up making the choice he did, even though it was (obviously) the evil one.
The portrayal of politics and really humanity in general was also more realistic than I had any reason to expect. Everyone was portrayed in shades of gray and black. No one was blameless. There really weren't any stereotypical "good guys." You were rooting for the Jedi because they were better than the alternative, not because they were perfect, they clearly were not.
Obi-Wan leaving the lava pit was perfect. It made up for a lot of sins.
Not to say there weren't plenty of things to complain about. There were. But unlike the first two, which were just generally so bad it was hard to find anything more specific to complain about than the general fact that they existed, this movie had as much good as it had bad.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
As far as droid comedy, I didn't mind anything that R2D2 or C-3PO did, but I thought the other droids flippant little comments and noises all over the place were a little over the top. THAT kind of droid comedy has not always been a part of the show. But I guess it was needed to give a little levity before the darkness that was to follow.
For the dialogue, I felt it was a thousand times better in this movie. I was entirely into it, and rarely ever shook my head at a bad line. Lines from the OT were just as silly, but we let those go for some reason. Star Wars is still Star Wars, no matter which episode. People need to give it a break and realize that that kind of dialogue comes with the movie, it's a package deal. And either way, I still argue with those who call it bad, I thought it was great.
There did seem to be something lacking between Padme and Anakin, though I thought their onscreen chemistry was a lot more believable in this movie.
As for the Bush/Sith thing. It was the first thing that popped into my head at the movie because the the leader of our nation is, to me, the most recent person to have said that. Doesn't mean I still think that Lucas called Bush a Sith Lord or whatever, it was just a reflexive thought in my mind. Though I too am more disturbed by the fact that Bush seems to have worse lines than any sci fi villain.
All in all I felt it was a fantastic movie. Hadyn does a much better job as Anakin in this film. The Order 66 stuff had me in knots, I wanted to yell at the screen or turn away. A lot of the movie gave me that feeling, which I took to be a good sign. I wasn't wanting to turn away because I thought it was bad, I wanted to turn away because I just didn't want to see that happen, but I knew it had to, and I still watched.
Was it the best film of the series? No, I still like Return of the Jedi better. But in my mind it is certainly on the same level as the OT, and reclaims the spirit of Star Wars in most every way, shape and form.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
While I can't speak for others, I notice the painful dialogue more in these movies because there's not a single character in the prequels that I care about. I'm not invested in them, I'm not identifying with them, I really don't care what happens to them. Thus I have far too much time to look around at all the cracks in the glitzy wallpaper.
I would really, really have liked to have seen these movies - same characters, same actors, same basic storyline - done with a different screenwriter and a different director. This movie made Samuel L. Jackson boring, and that's tough to do.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
This movie rocked! I loved the fact that for the first time there really were clear-cut villans.
My only complaint is about Anakin's dialogue. Every once and a while he would spit some monologue out and just be the angsty teenager from Life as a House again. I think it's mostly the result of poor writting as Star Wars lines have always been a little difficult for the actors to deliver. This poorly written dialogue even caused James Earl Jones' lines to sound a little corny.
However, I wouldn't say it detracted too much from the movie, like I said it was awesome.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Anything said by Darth Vader in that movie had to sound corny. It wouldn't have mattered who wrote it, what it was, none of that.
The only Vader lines we have ever heard are him saying "join the dark side" blah blah "I'm your father" and all that.
So when he comes out and says what he says in Ep. III, of course it will seem a little silly compared to what we are used to. But that would happen no matter what, it's unavoidable.
As for Anakin's dialogue. Is it possible that he sounds like an angtsy teenager because he IS (or age wise at least very close to) an angsty teenager? You want him to act like he's 40?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Just posted a longish list of the various things that bugged me about the movie.
Does Yoda fart, like some internet rumours suggested?
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Not in any significant manner I noticed. Maybe in the director's cut.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
I have a few minor quibles about the movie. Spoiler alert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What was the point of the wookie battle? I heard reports that the Operation 66 scene was edited so that a few Jedi would be alive for the TV show...and it showed. For instance, where was Shaak Ti? Is Darth Plageius Anakin's dad? Darth Plageius had the power to move midiclorins around to create life...and Anakin was created by midiclorins....Why did they show Jar Jar?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Wow Chris, you should have done yourself a favor and not gone. You obviously didn't want to enjoy it.
As for me, I thought it was amazing. So much better than episode one or two. In fact, it makes thinking about the first two even more painful, since they could have been so much better.
There were some dialogue problems, and some plot points don't make that much sense (some mentioned in Chris' link) but come on now. I could make a list of the plot points that don't make sense in the original trilogy a mile long (and people have). Oh, the crew is going out into the vacuum of space with just breathing masks on to check out a problem with the ship on an asteriod and there is a giant lizard thing that apparently can digest metal and aquire enough of it to grow huge while traveling across space in an asteroid. THAT'S LIKELY. Dialogue problems in the original trilogy? NOW WAY!
It was everything I wanted in the final prequel, and maybe more.
Posted by Darth Ender (Member # 7694) on :
SPOILER:
I win!
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Wow. I admit that there was some bad dialogue in the first trilogy. But that was the 70's. You know, in the days of the original Star Trek, BEFORE the creation of the cliches that were ALL OVER this movie. That said, I enjoyed the movie. I just wish I hadn't had to look down at the floor and shake my head so many times (Not to mention the point in the movie where I was litteraly in PAIN from the badness of the dialogue. I forget the exact moment. I think it was one of those famed Anakin/Padme scenes that I REALLY enjoy Episode 2 by skipping entirely).
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You mean the part where
Spoiler alert!
*
*
*
*
*
*
They are talking about how much they love each other, and it basically becomes "You're more beautiful because I'm so in love with you" awkward pause "no it's because I'm so in love with YOU" "No i love YOU more"
That's the only dialogue in the movie that made me cringe, and actually had the entire theater in hysterics it was so ridiculous.
But other than that one point, I felt the dialogue was fine, and in some cases extremely compelling.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
That's true. Everyone jumps all over the bad dialogue, but there was quite a bit of good stuff too. In particular, most of Palpatine's dialogue and a lot of the stuff between Obi-wan and Anakin after his turn to the dark side.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Lyrhawn...Just mentioning it hurt me. I had blocked that scene out completely as a result of the pain I felt from seeing that insane cliche placed into the history of cinema. Now I have a memory of the pain, and sure knowledge of the fact that George Lucas needs to take a class on modern movie dialogue... I will admit that Palpatine's stuff was spot on. To be honest, I think that him and Obi-wan were the only characters that actually had some depth added to them because of their dialogue. And the guy who played Anakin (don't remember his name), just can't act.
edit: Moving spoiler to spoiler thread Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
quote:Everyone jumps all over the bad dialogue, but there was quite a bit of good stuff too.
Well, that's understandable. After all, these guys are professional, and it's kinda assumed that they'll write better dialog than I could.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
My biggest complaint about the prequels was the fact that no one seemed to be as cool as the characters in the Middle trilogy, but in the 3rd one, I think Obi-Wan comes off pretty amazingly cool.
Obi-Wan rules!
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
This movie probably had the hardest job of any Star Wars film ever: making the viewers care about the turning point of the series. From the beginning this film carried the deep and heavy burden of the stigmata of all the prequels: bad dialogue, bad acting, and unsympathetic characters and plot. Now it had to suddenly make the dramatic events meaningful for the audience, but would be hindered because it involved characters nobody really cared about. Dealing with this problem would be the biggest obstacle of the production.
The result is a mixed bag. Lucas uses CGI to a far greater effect in this movie - gone are the days of Star Wars cartoons masquerading as movies. If anything, the special effects are often used to maximize the effect of the characters. However, certain sequences drag on for too long - such as the opening scene where Anakin and Obi Wan attempt to board a droid ship, and the scene where Obi Wan confronts Greivous, the general of the droid army. But overall, the movie is not just a string of eye candy and pointless CGI.
However, this movie does suffer from the usual prequel problems. I know that "no one comes to a Star Wars movie for the acting," but that isn't an excuse not to try. Many of the emotional scenes fall flat from clunky dialogue and half-hearted acting, particularly on the part of Christiansen, who often fails to achieve the level of tortured conscience and intimidation the role requires. There is something naturally blunt and inarticulate in his performance in both Sith and Clones that comes off as unconvincing. And Lucas still has no idea how to write a love scene. I often wonder what his romantic life must have been like, because the scenes are often unbearable forced. I found myself wondering just exactly do Padme and Anakin see in each other.
However, Lucas's dramatic skill shows through in the scenes where there is no dialogue or action - for example, when Anakin and Padme both stare out at the cityscape, wondering about their future, and the scene in which the Jedi are finally betrayed. Neither of these scenes really engage the actors or the action - they're simply the result of good direction. These are some of my favorite scenes from the film.
But what this movie really rides on is the nostalgia one gets from the old Star Wars movies. The references to episodes 4-6 occur one after the other towards the end of the movie, and the viewer gets a pang of bliss when they see the naming of Luke and Leia, or the twin suns of Tatooine, or when they hear Luke's theme rise in the music. Seeing the pieces fit together at the end really makes this movie fun to watch.
Overall, a fun and entertaining movie. Made me want to watch the old Star Wars movies all over again. 7/10
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Blacwolf, of course Padme was scared. She was pregnant, her husband was turning into a Sith Lord, the Republic was turning into an Empire, and everything was spinning out of control. I thought the Padme character was a lot more believable and sympathetic in this movie than in the first two.
I had expected to be bored by the inevitability of Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader, like it would be some kind of downer trip; but actually I found it very interesting how it happened step-by-step. Maybe it was a morbid fascination, but it kept my attention, wondering what was going to happen next, how low he would sink. He sunk shockingly low!
I think Lucas has recaptured much of the magic with this one. It has more of an epic feel. Of course, the virtually wall-to-wall light sabre dueling helped move things along at a fast pace. I would rate this movie as close to being as good as Star Wars V, not as good as IV or VI, and much better than I and II.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:I think Lucas has recaptured much of the magic with this one. It has more of an epic feel. Of course, the virtually wall-to-wall light sabre dueling helped move things along at a fast pace. I would rate this movie as close to being as good as Star Wars V, not as good as IV or VI, and much better than I and II.
Hang on. Can I thus infer, Ron, that you believe Empire to be the weakest of the OT? Are you a stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking Ewok lover?
Just kidding. Mostly.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Watching this movie made me wish Lucas would have stuck to original plan: instead of Ewoks Return of the Jedi would of had Wookies.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I think he decided against it because the costume cost would've been too much.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I really don't feel like the downward spiral of Anakin was done quite as realistically as it could have been. I just feel it should have been more subtle I suppose. Palpatine's explaination of the differences between the Dark and Light sides of the force could have easily been done in a way that would have made Anakin choose to ally himself with the the dark side on a level deeper than just the "I want to save Padme" method they used. That's probably due in part to the severe lack of good acting. I really couldn't believe that Anakin would have done all the stuff he did just to save Padme. Especially since it didn't seem like the best relationship in history (Speaking of which, wouldn't the fact that Anakin goes to Padme's house every night and doesn't leave until morning tip off at least someone on the Jedi councel?). I did think it was rather interesting that Vader ended up killing his wife rather than saving her. This is, in part, why I don't believe the "turning to the dark side to save padme" thing. He turns on her just as quickly as he was willing to kill the mini-Jedi (But you have to admit, it was cool seeing a little kid lay the smack down on a few clone troopers before getting wasted by em). That suggests a deeper allegiance to the Dark side that was shown in the movie. The angry Darth Vader scene didn't do anything bug make me howl in agony from the stupidity of it. All-in-all, I actually did like the movie. It was action packed, and let's face it, it's Star Wars. Just the stuff that takes place in the universe of Star Wars is cool to me.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
I remember when I saw Return the first time. I was 5. All I remember was staring at the screen in disbelief. I mean here were a bunch of teddybears defeating a professional army, with sticks and rope.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Book: I think he decided against it because the costume cost would've been too much.
And there are more 3 foot tall people than there are 7-8 foot tall people.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: I remember when I saw Return the first time. I was 5. All I remember was staring at the screen in disbelief. I mean here were a bunch of teddybears defeating a professional army, with sticks and rope.
That's why I liked it, dang you!!!
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Well they better explain what went wrong in the Empire troop program. Why can't storm troopers shoot? It took 20 years to make the original Death Star but only five for the new one?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
You've never seen "contact"? Why make one when you can make two for twice as much?
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
OK, Perhaps. And why can't storm troopers hit the broad side of a Super Star Destroyer?
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
Because their not the clones of boba fett. their regular people.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Was there this much nitpicking when the LOTR movies came out? I wasn't here then.
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
quote:Was there this much nitpicking when the LOTR movies came out? I wasn't here then.
Not as much, because not as many people have read Tolkien as have seen the Star Wars movies.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Ron- In the first two movies she would have dealt with her fear by doing something about it. In this movie all Padme did was sit around worrying about Anakin. That's ALL. This is the girl who was ruler of her homeworld at the age of 14 and a year ago was one of the most respected members of the Senate. But you know, apparently once women get married, they're not supposed to do anything important, they're just supposed to wait around for their husband to fix things. That's what made me angry.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Portman herself was a little miffed that she didn't get many action scenes, but seeing a pregnant woman fire a blaster at people in armed combat would probably be a bit much.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Lucas had to ditch a sub-plot in which Padme helps begin tthe rebellion. Or so GL said in an interview I read.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Lyrhawn- I honestly don't remember any other droid comedy, so I guess it didn't bother me. Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
It did bother me - a little. You know, the droïds around making stupid remarks and noises.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
quote:Wow Chris, you should have done yourself a favor and not gone. You obviously didn't want to enjoy it.
Actually, I did. And I did enjoy it more than the first two prequels.
What bothers me is not what was on the screen. What bothers me is what could have been there. This is arguably the most mythic, sweeping story ever created for the cinema, imagine what it would have been like with believable dialogue and a director who can direct something besides special effects.
I've never said the original trilogy was hole-free, far from it. Read my first comment about it in this thread. But when I watched it, I didn't care. Others feel this way about the prequels and that's fine. I might even feel that way about the originals now, and I plan to watch at least "A New Hope" this weekend to see if watching the prequels has changed how I feel about it.
Maybe I'll write another rant about that...
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivetta: Megan!
Hiya!
Ewan was definitely hot, although his facial hair was longer than I like (I guess it was him becoming Alec Guinness).
Re: Natalie Portman, my guy isn't all that impressed with her, either, and I don't like that she's wilting flower all of a sudden. Yes, she's got some excuses, but I think it went a bit overboard. And, I definitely noticed that her twins looked WAY bigger once born than her tummy could've accounted for beforehand.
I really enjoyed the lava pit fight, though (very intense), and there were quite a number of interesting previews, though the LWW was the best by far (and that's despite my having seen it beforehand...on the big screen, very thrilling!).
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
At least the babies actually looked like huge newborns instead of 1-month-olds, as is usual on screen.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'll take your word for it; I haven't seen enough newborn babies to be able to tell the difference. Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Was it ever explained whay the Sith were getting revenge for?
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
For getting their butts stomped by the Jedi 1000 years ago?
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
I guess I'll put in my two bits here:
The real tragedy of Star Wars is the lack of coherency and plot when it could easily have been added by hiring a halfway decen t writer as a consultant. Clearly each of these movies was written as if it were a standalone, with only very thin ties to the other films in the series. A good example of this is the appearance of midichlorians, or appointing Jar-jar as temporary senator. What, Naboo sent no one else to the capital with any political savvy?
The things Lucas did with special effects in this movie are beyong breathtaking. The effects were so good that one hardly noticed they were effects. In many cases everything just blended in perfectly. The plot drivers in this film, while still mediocre at best, were far more believable than the previous Star Wars films. Like others, I really did enjoy the movie very much. But I also cannot resist the urge to point out the many obvious fallacies which could have been easily corrected. So here is a partial list, in no particular order:
Political savvy- is everyone in the galaxy absolutely stupid? Some have said that Lucas was getting in some digs at Bush. That may or may not be the case, but if it is, then one could say that Lucas believes that all Bush supporters are as stupid as the charicatures portray. Let's see, Palpatine shows himself as a Sith, orders the death of the Jedi and grants himself unlimited powers, yet all of the senators applaud these actions? The jedi have been the protectors of the galaxy for thousands of years and are universally respected, and yet we are to believe that the senators will all applaud their deaths and give homage to the hated sith because he claims there was a plot? right...
Mace Windu whips Palpatine like a new paduan, but then Yoda can't beat him?
Lucas apparently doesn't know what to do with the leftover plot drivers after their role is done. For example, why on earth would Sidious have Vader kill the separatists? Does he just get sick of having too many followers? Why are the separatists so dumb that they don't recognize vader as the guy who foiled their plots a few years earlier?
Why can't the bad guys decide whether they want to capture or kill the jedi? One moment they are shooting at them, and then when they are helpless the bad guys kindly give them the chance to recover their fighting stance.
Why do the jedi, which can withstand the combined firepower of 2,000,000,000 droids, succumb to three or four clones?
And here is the one that really sticks in my craw: Why does feeling emotion and caring for people make Jedi evil? That is the one I can't get past. If Luke gets ticked off at the emperor for killing his friends, he will somehow become an evil minion of the dark side of the force. If Anakin worries about his wife and unborn children, he will fall to the dark side of the force. Ridiculous!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Jacare,
I'll only nitpick with the plot details you mentioned First of all, Palpatine only reveals himself as a Sith Lord to the Jedi-whom he then murders, kills, and discredits as revolutionaries who are plotting a coup. The Senate had voted him nigh-unlimited powers before Revenge of the Sith, and they were happy he'd foiled the evil Jedi and the Seperatists. Don't forget that many of them were corrupt anyway.
Mace Windu had Palpatine on his heels because Palpatine knew Anakin would come storming in. Only by appearing to be what he looked like-a man only barely, barely holding his own against the Jedi who is determined to murder (not really, since a Sith Lord or a Jedi for that matter is never really unarmed, but it appeared to be murder) only by looking like that could he get Anakin to kill a Jedi.
The Seperatists you'll notice are all non-human beings. This is one of the numerous things I wish Lucas had spent a little time mentioning. The Empire we see in the OT is very human-biased. Aliens are scum and not to be trusted. Palpatine was able to swing this because people remembered the Seperatists were led by aliens-but they never knew they were formed and controlled by Palpatine. Anakin may not have appeared totally implausible to them as the new apprentice because, after all, Count Dooku was once a Jedi, too.
The Jedi cannot withstand the clone betrayl for a couple of reasons. First of all, the clones are better soldiers than the droids anyway. Second, the Jedi have been fighting with the clones for many years, building up trust. And the Jedi were unable to detect any betrayl at all, because the command was subconcious.
And you might be relieved to know that eventually, the Jedi get over their collective hangup about emotional repression.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
I'm happy I actually read the book. In the book Palpatine plays audio of the jedi trying to arrest him and from the way it sounds they really are trying to take over the senate. In the book the they made it seem like Palpatine almost lost on purpose, to prove to Anakin that the Jedi were indeed evil, and were trying to take over. When Order 66 is given in the book it is explained that since they were clones, and thus trained this way and made this way, have no malice or ill will toward the jedi. They are just following orders. So the Jedi never even suspect it, never see it coming. In the book the Separtist reconize Lord Vader, say something along the lines of, wait, you're Anakin blah blah blah. He kills the Separtist leaders for two reasons: One they have to much power, they control trade routes etc. And two Palpatine is Xenophobic, he hates non humans. What better way to discredit non human aliens then to have them lead a war that has killed billions? Thats why in Episodes 4-6 they are only Humans on the Star destoyers.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
So yeah...exactly what Rakeesh said..
Posted by Portabello (Member # 7710) on :
Wow. That's some pretty awesome retcon. I'll have to read it.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
quote: Palpatine only reveals himself as a Sith Lord to the Jedi-whom he then murders, kills, and discredits as revolutionaries who are plotting a coup.
See, Palpatine goes all sithish in various public places, Including the senate. If Vader gets caught on camera killing the jedi, how does Palpatine get away with trashing the senate? And further, if the Jedi are the respected protectors of the galaxy for thousands of years, why would everyone immediately accept Palpatine's word of a jedi plot and agree to the death of hundreds of Jedi?If there is no footage of Palpatine's sithishness then neither is there any proof of a jedi plot.
quote: Don't forget that many of them were corrupt anyway.
True, but in a democracy the senators must maintain the illusion of respectability. Also, at least one senator- Bail Organa, knows that Palpatine is a sith. In a bickering republic such as we are shown with Maverick trade unions and so on there is simply no way that Palpatine has enough firepower available to cow all of the many planets into submission. We are shown a republic with weak central authority in the Phantom menace and attack of the clones. The clone army gives them a bit of clout, but even the separatists with their disposable droids are essentially a match for the clones.
quote: Mace Windu had Palpatine on his heels because Palpatine knew Anakin would come storming in. Only by appearing to be what he looked like-a man only barely, barely holding his own against the Jedi who is determined to murder (not really, since a Sith Lord or a Jedi for that matter is never really unarmed, but it appeared to be murder) only by looking like that could he get Anakin to kill a Jedi.
I don't buy it. Did Palpatine also purposely melt himself into a really ugly looking monster? That would be a big hit against any political effectiveness.
quote: The Seperatists you'll notice are all non-human beings. This is one of the numerous things I wish Lucas had spent a little time mentioning. The Empire we see in the OT is very human-biased. Aliens are scum and not to be trusted.
Right, and Palpatine supposedly hates all non-humans. Yet his trusted advisors are all non-humans. Further, the separatists serve a very useful political end. They can be trotted out as the bad guys any time Palpatine needs to engineer a crisis. It makes absolutely no sense to discard a tool which you control so completely.
quote: Anakin may not have appeared totally implausible to them as the new apprentice because, after all, Count Dooku was once a Jedi, too.
This I can almost buy, but the paranoid separatists clearly don't trust Sidious completely and always have a fair number of guards around. Yet they are completely unprotected when ANakin arrives.
quote: The Jedi cannot withstand the clone betrayl for a couple of reasons. First of all, the clones are better soldiers than the droids anyway. Second, the Jedi have been fighting with the clones for many years, building up trust. And the Jedi were unable to detect any betrayl at all, because the command was subconcious.
Yeah, I can buy it for the Jedi who were caught unaware, but what about the jedi at the temple and the jedi that became aware of the plot before they were killed? Presumably even Anakin is no match for 50 or 60 jedi at once (since even a single jedi master- obi wan, is more than a match for him.)
quote: And you might be relieved to know that eventually, the Jedi get over their collective hangup about emotional repression.
They had to, eventually. Luke is the last jedi and he certainly only seems to get anything done when he is pissed off.
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