If you are old enough to kill, die, and vote for your country, you are old enough to have a beer or ten. Especially if you are being payed for the first two.
Posted by Lanfear (Member # 7776) on :
I understand the whole " they can kill die , so they should be able to vote"
But after they win the bill for soldiers to drink at 19, everyone will want to drink at 19
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And I think it would lead to far healthier attitudes about alcohol in the US, and in particular cause a drastic decline in alcohol related deaths and injuries at college.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Overseas they already can. Legally. If there was a state that allowed it here in the USA at that age, then it would be legal at any post/base in that state.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
They shouldn't lower the drinking age for soldiers specifically unless every job in which there's a risk of death also entitles its holders to drink. If they feel the need to permit soldiers to drink -- on the grounds that someone old enough to die for his country is old enough to go on a bender -- then they should just lower the drinking age for everyone. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Hmm...I'd rather raise the soldiering age.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That works, too. Maybe we could require all soldiers to have first served a term in the House of Representatives. Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:And I think it would lead to far healthier attitudes about alcohol in the US, and in particular cause a drastic decline in alcohol related deaths and injuries at college.
And replace them with the same deaths and injuries in high school? Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Nope. There's good evidence from other countries that this doesn't happen -- the conditions are changed such that the behaviors are changed.
Plus, its not like kids in high school aren't drinking today, and lowering the age limit at which it would become legal would be unlikely to significantly increase consumption.
Plus, changing the focus on underage drinkers from prosecution to treatment and providing opportunities for anonymous treatment (both short term medical treatment and long term treatment for alcohol problems) would save many lives; it did at the school I attended for two years (Washington University in Saint Louis) compared to many "dry campuses" I'm familiar with, per capita, and I believe there've been a few studies that show colleges which focus on education and treatment of alcohol issues with a generally permissive attitude (under controlled circumstances) have fewer alcohol related problems, particularly deaths.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I am split.
I believe giving heavilly armed people what they want to make them happy is a good thing.
I don't believe getting heavilly armed people drunk is a good thing.
Do I really want the driver of that M1 Tank to be getting a DWI? No. Do I want to be the one to tell him to put down the beer? No.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Hmmm. Interesting topic. Which begs the question: is it about teaching respect and moderation, or is it about protecting the health and development of youth?
NPR had this segment on Morning Edition this a.m.
quote: Drinking and smoking may pose more unique hazards for teenagers than the usual health and addiction risks. Throughout adolescence, the brain undergoes major remodeling, and new evidence suggests that alcohol and cigarettes may have an especially damaging effect on those developing brains.
We don't need a Draft--We just offer legal beer to 18 year olds, and we'll rip up those recruiting goals.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
18 is well past adolescence (in that sense).
Also, I'd be interested in the doses involved, as there are plenty of countries where people drink wine or beer in moderation regularly with meals starting in their early teens -- countries which, coincidentally, have far fewer problems with alcohol-related deaths.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I'm with Bob on this one. Oh, am I ever.
Posted by mishagam (Member # 8151) on :
Solgiers are already privileged in alcohol consumption because they can buy alcohol at bases at sundy unlike anybody else in most states.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
In NZ a few years ago, they lowered the drinking age from 20 to 18. Now they want to put it back to 20.... because of lots of drunken Uni kids like me!
Posted by socal_chic (Member # 7803) on :
It would be a bad idea to lower the drinking age for one sector of society IMHO. I'm still not sure I understand why being old enough to die for your country entitles you to be old enough to drink. There doesn't seem to be a correlation to me. There are many many more ways to have fun and 'forget your problems' than drinking...with less negative side effects I might add.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
It's not so much being old enough to drink as it is being old enough to be treated like an adult. Not that being able to drink should be a symbol of adulthood, but as it stands I think most would agree that it is. You can vote, you can drink, you can drive a car, you can get married, and you can be drafted. Welcome to adulthood!
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
You can't rent a car though. I am over 21, but under 25. Since I've never had a drink of any alcoholic beverage, I am far more concerned about my inability to rent a car when I fly to another city.
Does the fact that I can die for my country entitle me to a rental car? I think not. The logic doesn't add up.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
*shrug* Renting a car isn't perceived as being one of the perks of being an adult. Don't look at me, I didn't start this society.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The car rental thing is, I think, a requirement mainly of the car rental places, not anything legal.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Listen to the recording via the linky, fugu - that should give you a better idea of dosage and age range.
The age of car rental is somehow tied into insurance company premiums, as I recall.
*Digs for ancient memory*
Anyway, they oughtta do away the drinking age altogether. And raise the legal age of driving to 30. Cut it off at 60. And improve public transportation.
And, and, and . . .
*Wonders if she could sleep yet*
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
There are some car companies that will rent to anyone 21+. National is one of them. I went on a job interview last year, and was denied a rental car where I had one reserved (and after explicitly calling ahead and asking about any age restrictions and being told there were none). National was the next company over, and they rented one to me, no problem.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Anyway, they oughtta do away the drinking age altogether. And raise the legal age of driving to 30."
Bet I can guess which side of 30 you're on. Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
I know the reason rental agencies won't give you a car if you are under 25. My point was that the age you are allowed to do one thing does not, and should not, neccessarily correspond with the age you are allowed to do something else.
If you are allowed to drive at 16, should you be allowed to gamble at 16? If you are allowed to have consensual sex at 17(or whatever it is in your respective state) should you be allowed to buy cigarrettes at 17?
Do we need one age where everything suddenly becomes legal? At age 18, are you suddenly able to handle all the freedoms you were too immature for a week or two weeks earlier?
Obviously not. The age of maturity comes at a different time for everyone. For some people, driving a car is probably not a good idea until they are 21, while others can handle a permit at 15 with no problems. Some people could drink responsibly at 16 years old, while others wont reach that depth of maturity until their late twenties.
The law has to find a medium, an average. I think that as far as drinking goes, 21 is probably a pretty good average. I'm 21, and most of my friends are somewhere between 19 and 23. Many of those under 21 are not ready for responsible drinking, while most of those over 21 already drink responsibly.
On a sidenote, I think they should raise the driving age to 18. However, if you had told me that when I was 16, I would have been quite angry.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I just think it is insulting to have the voting age and drinking age different. Soldiers aside, it seems that if you are considered old enough to vote, you are old enough to make decisions about alcohol consumption.
So, as Bob said about the age of the military, I say about voting. Either raise the age of voting to twenty-one, or lower the drinking age to eighteen.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:This makes the effective age limit for renting a car 18, since you need to be 18 to get a drivers license here.
I had a license in NY at 17. Most of my friends had theres at 16. Perhaps you are mistaken? (or else they have changed the law in the last 2-3 years)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Maybe it is not the age of a driver's license, but the use of the credit card?
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: We don't need a Draft--We just offer legal beer to 18 year olds, and we'll rip up those recruiting goals.
Just what I was thinking. You would suddenly see a sharp increase in interest in the military for people between 18 and 21.
As to voting age corresponding with age or whatever, I think you should have to take some sort of a test before you vote for the first time, showing that you are somewhat informed on the issues and that you aren't just picking the candidates that make a pretty pattern on the voting machine. Nothing difficult, just answer a couple of questions on who the candidates are or something (as in, Who are two candidates currently running for the position of __________ ?) I'm fully informed on most of the issues, and really want my voice to be heard, but I'm not legal to vote for a couple of years. On the other hand, there are people who vote for candidates whom they've never heard of and have no idea about their positions on anything. [/rant]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Since I've never had a drink of any alcoholic beverage, I am far more concerned about my inability to rent a car when I fly to another city.
The fedeal government has contracts with most rental car companies specifying price. When I travelled on government orders, they had to rent to me even though I was only 21.
Which was fun, because the guy at the rental counter didn't know about the rule and was refusing to rent to me. My travel coordinator quoted the regulation that would have made him ineligible for any more government car rentals had he refused to honor the contract.
Dagonee
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
This gives "draft beer" a whole new meaning. :)
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I find the idea that people would join the army simply because they could drink their kind off depressing. I don't drink, I have had a drink or two before, but I have never understood the obsession with drinking. I'm not judging I seriously don't understand it. Why is drinking such a must?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I'm for lowering the drinking age to 18 for soldiers. I have no problems giving that "special right" to someone risking his life for mine.
Pix
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Hey, U-Haul will rent to you if you're over the age of 18. Yay for progress.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I find the idea that people would join the army simply because they could drink their kind off depressing.
I find it scary. The people that would make a career choice because they can booze it up three years earlier are not the people that I feel comfortable hiring for national defence.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Midnight Blue-- Testing for voting is dangerous. They did that at one time. Mainly because African Americans in the south had no education. As a result they got cut out of the voting all together.
If you discriminate against anyone, especially those who are most desparate, you risk disenfranchising those who may need it the most.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Orange7penguin, you just made me laugh, in a purely out of context sort of way.
In this thread, you wrote:
" I have never understood the obsession with drinking"
In the caffeine thread, you wrote:
"I have been a heavy drinker since 17."
Sorry, but it was cracking me up and I had to point it out.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote: Hey, U-Haul will rent to you if you're over the age of 18. Yay for progress.
On a related, frightening note, There's a Liquor store around here that has U-Haul rentals. My hubby and I joke that you get a free bottle of JD with every truck.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
And Arizona, with one of the strictest DUI laws in the country(or one of the first to have strict laws) still has drive through liquor stores.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I once passed a liquor store out in the backwoods of Missouri with this sign:
"Bait, Beer, Guns & Cappuccino"
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Well, Dan, maybe they got the cappuccino machine from Freecycle.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I think they are lowering it just because, from what my friends tell me who are in the army, most of them are functioning alchoholics anyway and as soon as you join you have access to alchohol. Don't want any under 21 soldiers getting busted.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Well, then it makes all kinds of sense to lower the legal drinking age.
Wait. No it doesn't.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: When I went to get my license renewed, they told me I had to be 18, because you can't drive in NYC without all sorts of restrictions if you are under 18
Well that explains the difference, sort of. I lived in upstate NY.
quote:The rental car issue varies by state. In New York, rental car companies are not allowed to refuse rental based on age, as long as you have a valid drivers license. This makes the effective age limit for renting a car 18, since you need to be 18 to get a drivers license here.
But this makes it sound like its a state law you are talking that you can't get a license until you are 18.
There is still a problem here though. If I am not mistaken, you are saying that having to rent with people with a license is a state law, correct?
Then since I had a license at 17, wouldn't they have had to rent to me too (if I had the class)? (
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Dropping the drinking age to eighteen was already tried in many states in response to the VietNam draft. And a lot of folk died. Which is why the age limit was bumped back up to twenty-one.
Soldiers under 21 used to be able to drink on base until relatively recently (?GulfWar?). Eventually, the military brass decided that was a bad idea.
[ June 01, 2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
As for this idea, I think its nonsense. The law is just as hypocritical to any profession as it is to soldiers. Unless "putting your life on the line" earns you special legal pivileges. In that case, firemen, police officers, fishermen (far higher casulty rates then modern soldiers), viral researchers, construction workers, factory workers, lifeguards, yada yada yada... Where do we draw the line?
Its not like the legal drinking age means anything to anyone who wants to drink anyway. I did most of my heavy drinking between age 15 and 18. By the time I turned 21 (in my senior year in college), I was pretty much done with anything but occasional social drinking.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Midnight Blue-- Testing for voting is dangerous. They did that at one time. Mainly because African Americans in the south had no education. As a result they got cut out of the voting all together.
If you discriminate against anyone, especially those who are most desparate, you risk disenfranchising those who may need it the most.
I don't mean that it should be difficult, and it shouldn't be something that would need to be taken every year. Just something to prove that you know a little bit about what you're voting for. (ie, what are three offices that are up for election this year) If they don't pass, they could take a one hour class or something. I don't know. I have no problem with people who have different political beliefs voting, but it annoys me when people who don't care enough to know which choices they're making vote. I know that it's the right of every American citizen to cast their vote, but I wish there was a way to make sure that people were informed of the issues and informed about the candidates. So many people just don't take the time. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Ahhh... I don't know I am opposed to lowering the drinking age for one segment of society. But whether that would mean lowering the drinking age for everyone, or raising recruitment age....I'm a pacifist, so I lean toward raising recruitment age. But I don't have an issue with lowering the drinking age either.
Posted by Pixie (Member # 4043) on :
The bill seems rather superfluous to me. Legal or not, the soldiers under 21 drink. If you get promoted, you go out for drinks with your friends. If someone is transfered, you say farewell together at the local bar. It is and has long been a fact of military life. It isn't really condoned or encouraged, but it at least seems to fall under the general "dont' ask, don't tell" policy.
I suppose I don't understand why making it legal or not is an issue when they know it happens and will continue to happen either way??
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Well, yes, Tom - you'd be right. *smile*
You also ought to know that I have been the victim of poor teen drivers on high-risk insurance twice (including with parent in car with one of them), and of elderly drivers twice.
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