Hamlet question, obviously. I've just finished readhing Hamlet again and I'm burning for some input on the topic from other readers.
Personally, I don't think so, but I'm influenced by Tom Stoppard's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. I'll probably go further in depth if I can find anyone else here who even remembers who the two little courtiers are. XD
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think you'll find that the people on this board, in addition to being familiar with the works of Douglas Adams, are also familiar with both Shakespeare and Tom Stoppard. Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
YAYAY!
Dude. This is the best n00b feeling I've ever had in my life. =D You have to understand, I'm surrounded by a family of people who think the correct form of "wasp" is "wasper". (I'm not knockin' 'em-- I did, too, until about six months go.)
*does the happy finger dance*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Everybody in Shakespeare deserves to die. That's what they're paid for.
Would you mind explaining the "wasp" reference? I have no idea what you are talking about.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Wasp, as in the insect, not "White Anglo-Saxon Protestant".
I'm in the deep south. =)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Are you saying that they pronounce it like "wasper"? Or is "wasper" something from down there, maybe a form of "grits"? Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
They don't pronounce it 'wasper'.. it's just a new word that we've completely invented. =) Come on, there are people running around her named 'Jim Bob' and highschool guys that still have mullets. We can create a few words, too. =D
Posted by Bekenn (Member # 6602) on :
So, tell me... just what is it you have against cats?
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Um.
.. it's an obscure anime reference, alright? No, I'm not an incurable nerd at all. <3;
edit: reference, allusion, whatever, I'm too jetlagged and worn out to bother thinking of the right word. xP
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern didn't "deserve" to die, but they were sort of unfortunate little pawns throughout the whole play. While Hamlet is indecisive, R & G are UNdecisive, in that they have little to no input into their own actions or ultimately, their unfortunate end.
For another wonderful Hamlet spinoff, I recommend Fortinbras. It takes place immediately after Hamlet, is something more of a comedy, and features ghosts of just about everyone who died in Hamlet. Fortinbras himself is a much more practical character, and after monologuing for a bit will exclaim in frustration "What is it with this castle? It's got me talking to myself!" Lots of fun.
--Enigmatic
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Oh, wow, that's cute. I've actually never heard of it myself, but I'm definitely going to check into it now. To tell you the truth, I only watched R&G Are Dead because of Gary Oldman and my fanatical obsession with most of his work, but I found myself absolutely obsessed with Hamlet and his Denmark.
Thanks for the rec. =)
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Hamlet is my favorite Shakespeare, possibly my favorite play. I got to see it performed at the Guthrie by the Royal British Shakespeare Company and was completely blown away by their version. It made all the movie versions and most of the live versions seem like they weren't even reading from the same script.
dkw got me the "one-page play" edition of Hamlet a while back. It's a huge poster with the entire script printed artfully (and in rather small font).
Oh, and welcome to Hatrack.
--Enigmatic
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Ah, lucky. I'd kill to see anything done professionally by Shakespeare, especially Hamlet. Stealing that poster, by the way.
And thanks. =) I had a "holy crap, there's a FORUM?" moment yesterday while surfing the site. (EDIT: I love the name 'Hatrack' and all, but my brain insists on pronouncing it "Hah-track" instead of "Hat-rack." I've read the Alvin Maker books, but I'm just a little wonky.)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I am madly in love with Hamlet.
I love the play, too (Okay, so he's a bit of his rocker- it's not his fault!). I also love Rosencrantz and Guidenstern are Dead; I own both a Video and DVD copy. Of course they didn't deserve to die. The only person who 'deserved to die', if you want, was Claudius. Most of the rest are casualties, including Hamlet.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
It was me vs. most of the rest of my English class, concerning Ros and Guil. They were absolutely certain that they deserved to die for spying on Hamlet and attempting to carry that letter to England.
Pfft, if the King of Denmark walked up and asked me to spy on his nephewson, it's not like I'd be able to tell him "no." ._.
The movie version of Hamlet? HAHAHA. I love Kenneth Branagh (spelling?), but when he smashed Ophelia's face against the glass..
*rolls*
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Enigmatic, I just finished reading John Updike's "Gertrude and Claudius," which is a prequel to "Hamlet." It was OK.
In high school, when my very small English class read Hamlet, we found it to be hysterical. Our teacher said it was the only time he had ever thought of Hamlet as a comedy. But since then, I have always thought of Hamlet(himself) as more of a smart-a** than a tragic character.
It was interesting, because in Updike's forward, he said something similar.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
The answer, no--but their death proves that Claudius is dangerous and must die.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:The only person who 'deserved to die', if you want, was Claudius. Most of the rest are casualties, including Hamlet.
I don't see how Claudius deserved to die more then Hamlet did. Unless the fact that Hamlet is such an exceptionally interesting character excuses the fact that he has killed three people and is trying to work out whether or not he should kill a fourth.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Ah, lucky. I'd kill to see anything done professionally by Shakespeare, especially Hamlet.
Good luck on that one. I understand that he diead a few years ago.
quote:The movie version of Hamlet? HAHAHA. I love Kenneth Branagh
Sigh. As though there's only one movie version.
quote:I don't see how Claudius deserved to die more then Hamlet did.
Many people, and our modern legal system, consider killing in cold blood (what Claudius did) worse than killing somebody in the heat of the moment (how he killed whats-his-name, Ophelia's father), or in self defence (which the death of R&G could be argued to be).
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
It's a mystery.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:Many people, and our modern legal system, consider killing in cold blood (what Claudius did) worse than killing somebody in the heat of the moment (how he killed whats-his-name, Ophelia's father), or in self defence (which the death of R&G could be argued to be).
R&G in self defence? I don't really see it. Doesn't he escape from them?
And don't forget how abusive he was to Ophelia.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
... LOL.
Thanks, Mr. Porteiro. I now feel like an idiot. But I deserve it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
How abusive he was to Ophelia has no bearing on how much of a murderer he is.
I don't think that Hamlet escaped from R&G. Although it is true that Hamlet probably could have avoided death without killing R&G. Probably. But perhaps not.
Did R&G know what was in the letter?
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Well, R&G are dead, yes. No idea if they did or not in "Hamlet."
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Updike portrayed the young hamlet as morose and smart-mouthed, and very disrespectful of his mother. His dad was a big, beefy warrior who neglected Gertrude's inner beauty, which, of course, Claudius saw. So he portrayed it more as a Guinivere kind of story.
It is interesting.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Hamlet was a genius. Procrastinated a little too much, maybe, but still totally a genius. =3
I wanted to snuggle Laertes, but that's just my fangirlitis kicking up again. (No mocking the n00b!)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Hamlet was a genius. Procrastinated a little too much, maybe, but still totally a genius. =3
What did he do that was so brilliant?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
His ability to analyse his own motives. His setting up of the mousetrap. All the things he says when he's feigning insanity are packed with meaning. Those are indicators that while maybe not a genius, he was indeed very intelligent.
quote:How abusive he was to Ophelia has no bearing on how much of a murderer he is.
We're not just talking murders. We're comparing him to Claudius to see if Claudius was the only person who was "deserving" of death.
Oh and here's a summary of Hamlet's "escape" from R&G:
Act IV, Scene vi: Horatio meets with sailors who have messages from Hamlet. They give Horatio a letter which recounts Hamlet's adventures on his sea voyage. It seems that pirates attacked the ship that Hamlet was on and through misadventure, Hamlet was captured and taken prisoner. Everyone else on the ship escaped unharmed and continued on to England. The note also tells Horatio that Hamlet has an incredible story to tell him when he arrives back tomorrow, a story that will make Horatio "dumb."
Okay, what the heck does '=3' mean? It can't mean what it looks like-- by chance did you mean '<3'?
The play 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead' is much better than the movie.
Posted by Gosu (Member # 5783) on :
gogo Horatio fighting!!
-__________-;;
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
My favorite scene from the Branagh version is the chase. "Hie fox and all after!" It never fails to make me laugh.
And that version is STILL not out on DVD. I have the VHS tapes, but the movie would certainly benefit from a DVD production.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
We taped that off of TV. Maybe I need to watch it again.
quote:We're not just talking murders. We're comparing him to Claudius to see if Claudius was the only person who was "deserving" of death.
Ah. I was going on the assumption that the death penalty was only an appropriate punishment for murder, not for lesser offences like battery.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
quote: In high school, when my very small English class read Hamlet, we found it to be hysterical. Our teacher said it was the only time he had ever thought of Hamlet as a comedy. But since then, I have always thought of Hamlet(himself) as more of a smart-a** than a tragic character.
There's actually a lot of comedy in Hamlet. Many readers and performers seem to miss it because they think "This is Shakespeare! It must be read in Noble, Dignified, Paced tones" instead and lose much of the emotion and all the comedic timing. The gravedigger is the most obvious comedy relief character, but Polonius is actually quite funny if played right. And when Hamlet is pretending to be insane, as mentioned, there's some wonderfully funny smart-alek bits.
--Enigmatic
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Hamlet making fun of Polonius sometimes made me laugh at loud in front of class.
Nobody talked to me anymore after that.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I saw a fantastic version of Hamlet at the Utah Shakespearean Festival in which all the costumes and sets were circa 1900. Really cool. And not at all stuffy.
Also saw Henry V in their replica of the Globe. Brilliant.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
When Christy and I honeymooned in London, we were quite amused by the Globe's production of Hamlet, which was played quite deliberately as a comedy with tragic elements.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
Hamlet's comments while crazy. Perfection. His way of telling Claudius to go to Hell was absolutely amazing.
And =3 is a face. Some sort of warped smile. Don't ask me, just ignore 'em. They're reflex by now.
(The play of Ros and Guil are dead was a lot better than the movie, but that doesn't mean the movie wasn't amazing as well. <3)
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Gee, nobody ever talks about my favorite version of Hamlet. When Gilligan and the cast aways do a musical version of Hamlet to boost Ginger's acting skills in front of a visiting hollywood producer.
"I ask to be, or not to be A rogue and peasant slave is what you see" still sings in my ear when ever I hear "To be, or not to be, that is the question."
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Shoot yeah, I'm on Hamlet's side all the way!
Okay, imagine your dad was king and died mysteriously, and that your uncle married your mom and became king, and you're heir to the throne. Then you find out your uncle murdered your father and also wants you dead, has plans to off you that you only found out about by accident. Imagine that two of your supposed best friends instead of sticking to you and warning you, go over to his side and join in the plot. At that point Hamlet is fighting for his life.
When he realizes that even Ophelia, the girl he loved, whom he thought loved him back, is on their side it was quite a shock too. So he severely chastised her for being two faced and dishonest, without giving away that he knew they were trying to kill him. Without giving away that he was on to them.
Everyone in a royal court is totally aware of the possibility of factions and infighting that gets dirty. How many monarchs of England died a natural death, for instance, during those ages? Not very many. So these people are all aware of the sort of game they're playing. Perhaps Ophelia doesn't know for sure, but the others do. Polonius and R+G and Laertes all know that it's a fight to the death between Claudius and his supporters, and Hamlet and his. They choose sides knowing their own lives depend on siding with the one who wins. They choose to side with the murderer. Gertrude we aren't sure about, if she was complicit or not. My reading is that she was complicit, though possibly reluctantly. I think part of the reason Claudius held back from murdering Hamlet right away was to spare her feelings, or bring her around, or something. Maybe just because two deaths so close together would be suspicious and the court might rise up against him.
So yeah, I think they all deserved it. Hamlet was in the right. Claudius murdered his own brother, and plotted the murder of his nephew. Hamlet just acted brilliantly in a terrible situation to try to save his own life and bring the murderer to justice.
Imagine another scenario, imagine when R + G found out about the plot to kill Hamlet, if they sat down to think it all out and realized that their friend Hamlet was getting the shaft? What if they had warned him and allied themselves to him, and to the rule of law and peaceful succession, rather than whoever happens to be most powerful at the moment? Then it might have been a very different story, and right could have prevailed.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
I don't think Claudius ever really hated Hamlet-- not until he saw through the mock-crazy thing at least, and even then, I think it was more out of fear. The King was the King, and the people (and the court) had no real reason to revolt. Sure, they could suspect, but not even Hamlet realized foul play was involved until Hamlet Sr. came up to him and said, hey, man, my brother killed me.
As far as Rosencrantz and Guildenstern knew, they were spying on Hamlet because he had gone mad, not because he was plotting on stealing the throne that had been stolen from him. They're likely aware that foul play *could* have been involved, but why would two courtiers openly suspect that the new king had been involved in some insidious plot? They had been close to Hamlet as children; one could only assume that they still cared for him.
Unless these two courtiers were as perceptive as the king and his advisor, it's doubtful they would be able to discern the fact that he was faking it all.
Claudius's problem was his greed. Look at the way he tried to repent; he wanted to, but couldn't let go of everything he'd taken. Hamlet's was procrastination. Did he not kill Claudius at that moment because he really thought he'd go to heaven, or because he was just too chicken to go through with it?
I don't put any blame on Ophelia. Look at the place she had in the court, under her father's thumb. You can't blame a person for behaving in accordance to the way they were raised-- for her, the ultimate power figure was her father, and it probably never crossed her mind to go against him, love for Hamlet or no.
Edit: Wait, "plans to off you that you only found out by accident"? It's been a while since I've read this, and it's my fault for trying to debate without a copy of the text, but Claudius had no plans to kill Hamlet until he feared for his own life, did he?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Gee, nobody ever talks about my favorite version of Hamlet. When Gilligan and the cast aways do a musical version of Hamlet to boost Ginger's acting skills in front of a visiting hollywood producer."
Dan, I am now giggling just thinking about it.
Posted by ailurophobic (Member # 8343) on :
I'm too young for Gilligan's Island. I totally missed it growing up. .___.
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